Thanks, David, for all these resource suggestions.  Yes, "Birth of
Christianity" is the
    book that first brought my attention to this issue.  I've forgotten the
Meier source,
    most likely Vol. 2 of "Marginal Jew" or one of the more recent pieces
available
    through Biblica or elsewhere online --  pl. don't hold me to it.

    The Sanders source was most likely personal conversation when he visited
the
    Yale campus this semester.  Right, land tenancy and the general economics
of
    Galilee are not big issues in the writings of Meier and Sanders that I've
read.

     Forgive my not having sources at hand to reference, but I have also read

     that Herod generally benefitted his subjects.

     Speaking of Sanders .... One issue I discussed with Sanders was his take
on
     Borg's hypotheses re Jesus' ostensible conflicts over purity laws.  He
thinks
     Borg is generally mistaken re the entire subject, that these conflicts
are retrojected
     from early Christianity.  I don't have my texts at hand, but as I
recall,
     "Jesus and Judaism" puts forward the notion that Jesus' main conflict
with
     other Jews was his style of becoming friends with tax-collectors,
     et al. without first some commitment from them to change their ways.
     I raised the issue to Sanders that there still might be a role for
purity in
     social identity(thus, "us-versus-them" conflict), and he agreed on the
     possibility but we didn't get much further on that.   Christine Hayes, a

     Tanach scholar at Yale suggested there is literature on purity and
social
     identity but has never shared the info with me.

     I'll look back through the list archives for the comments you mentioned
by yourself
     and Crossan.

    BTW, just an FYI.  I've been able to leisurely read some long sections of
Adela
    Yabro Collins' new Hermenia commentary on Mark. She reads a lot of
Classical
    literature for comparision.  The whole project struck me as extremely
impressive,
    though sometimes a bit conservative.

    Warm Wishes,

    Steve

Steven Deedon
stevendeedon@...
203-507-6970

"It is not happiness that makes us grateful but gratefulness that makes us
happy." - Br. David Steindl-Rast


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve,

Ahh, I see that you are a lot closer to the academic world than I originally
thought.

I tend to like Meier, although he usually always ends up with a "centrist" take
on the issue. However, he does seem to cover most
all of the bases - pro and con - with his comments and bibliographies.

WRT Jesus' purported relations with "tax collectors" etc, there is an
interesting relationship with the land tenancy issue. The true
political reality of traditional "family plots" of the time in that region, that
everyone likes to talk about as if similar to
modern day concepts of absolute land ownership (with parents splitting
inheritances among sons and all) with confidant assertions
that it must have been so because some passage in the Jewish scriptures says so,
is not so easily discerned.

Norman C, Habel (_The Land is Mine: Six Biblical Land Ideologies_, Fortress,
1995, 190 pp.), for instance, identifies six distinct
land ideologies in different parts of Jewish scripture. Which were utopian goals
never achieved and which were actually practiced,
where and when? A similar problem exists with Rabbinic studies.

My gut feeling is that the rulers of the region over time, from the Persians on,
likely took direct control of a good portion of the
local land as royal estates, but seem to permitted the temple to control land
which was leased to "families" on terms resembling
those expressed in parts of Jewish scriptures. However, these lands may not have
extended beyond the province of Judaea, except
possibly in Hasmonean times and even there I cannot be confident. The local
rulers, including Hasmoneans and Herodians, likely
retained control over the royal estates established by their predecessors,
passing control  (but not absolute ownership as we think
of it) of some on to their retainers.

I believe the "purity" issue raging among critical rabbinists (Neusner, et al)
is centering on just how central to everyday life
ritual purity was in regions like Galilee and beyond. It may not have been
required of anyone other than those living on temple
land, and the tithes delivered to the priests, etc, substituted as their "rent".
Tenant farmers did not pay land taxes (whether to a
king or to the Romans), their landlords did, including some retainers and
elites, who raised the money partly through rents. Whether
some (mostly the elites) voluntarily  took on the burden to observe the tithes
and purity laws "as if" the land they lived  on or
controlled was still part of temple land, is the matter that is disputed, as I
understand it. Neusner's _Economy of the Mishna_
might have more on this, but it is a pretty slim volume.

Respectfully,

Dave Hindley
Newton Falls, Ohio USA




   _____

From: stevendeedon@... [mailto:stevendeedon@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 12:28 AM
To: dhindley@...
Subject: Galilean Economics, et


    Thanks, David, for all these resource suggestions.  Yes, "Birth of
Christianity" is the
    book that first brought my attention to this issue.  I've forgotten the Meier
source,
    most likely Vol. 2 of "Marginal Jew" or one of the more recent pieces
available
    through Biblica or elsewhere online --  pl. don't hold me to it.

    The Sanders source was most likely personal conversation when he visited the
    Yale campus this semester.  Right, land tenancy and the general economics of
    Galilee are not big issues in the writings of Meier and Sanders that I've
read.

     Forgive my not having sources at hand to reference, but I have also read
     that Herod generally benefitted his subjects.

     Speaking of Sanders .... One issue I discussed with Sanders was his take on
     Borg's hypotheses re Jesus' ostensible conflicts over purity laws.  He
thinks
     Borg is generally mistaken re the entire subject, that these conflicts are
retrojected
     from early Christianity.  I don't have my texts at hand, but as I recall,
     "Jesus and Judaism" puts forward the notion that Jesus' main conflict with
     other Jews was his style of becoming friends with tax-collectors,
     et al. without first some commitment from them to change their ways.
     I raised the issue to Sanders that there still might be a role for purity in
     social identity(thus, "us-versus-them" conflict), and he agreed on the
     possibility but we didn't get much further on that.   Christine Hayes, a
     Tanach scholar at Yale suggested there is literature on purity and social
     identity but has never shared the info with me.

     I'll look back through the list archives for the comments you mentioned by
yourself
     and Crossan.

    BTW, just an FYI.  I've been able to leisurely read some long sections of
Adela
    Yabro Collins' new Hermenia commentary on Mark. She reads a lot of Classical
    literature for comparision.  The whole project struck me as extremely
impressive,
    though sometimes a bit conservative.

    Gratefully,

    Steve

Steven Deedon
stevendeedon@...
203-507-6970

"It is not happiness that makes us grateful but gratefulness that makes us
happy." - Br. David Steindl-Rast


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dave Hindley writes:

>WRT Jesus' purported relations with "tax collectors" etc, there is an
interesting relationship with the land tenancy >issue. The true
>political reality of traditional "family plots" of the time in that region,
that everyone likes to talk about as if similar >to
>modern day concepts of absolute land ownership (with parents splitting
inheritances among sons and all) with >confidant assertions
>that it must have been so because some passage in the Jewish scriptures says
so, is not so easily discerned.

On this issue of land tenancy, and the ideologies thereof, and shifts in those
patterns and ideologies in first-century Galilee, Seth Schwartz has done some
lovely work -- see his "Josephus in Galilee: Rural patronage and social
breakdown," in Josephus and the history of the Greco-Roman period: Essays in
memory of Morton Smith, ed. F. Parente and J. Sievers, 290�306 (Leiden: E. J.
Brill, 1994).

regards,
Bill
______________________
William Arnal
University of Regina


_________________________________________________________________
Enter today for your chance to win $1000 a day�today until May 12th. Learn more
at SignInAndWIN.ca
http://g.msn.ca/ca55/215

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Durn Bill.  A quick trip to Amazon and I am $32.60 poorer.  You better
autograph it for me.

Seriously, it looks like a great read and an important one.  I amred-faced
that I missed it.

Jack

Jack Kilmon
San Antonio, TX


----- Original Message -----
From: "William Arnal" <warnal@...>
To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:34 AM
Subject: RE: [XTalk] Galilean Economics


>
>
> Jack Kilmon writes:
>
>>I have read the works you
>>mention but rely heavily on Richard Horsley's two books, Archaeology,
>>History and Society in Galilee and Galilee: History, Politics, People.
>
> Yes, Horsley is a great source for this stuff. A VERY recent (2007 or
> 2008) publication that is dead-on this issue (Galilean economics and the
> HJ) is Douglas Oakman's _Jesus and the Peasants_. Also, if I may be
> immodest, Arnal's _Jesus and the Village Scribes_ chapter 4 has a fairly
> focused analysis of Galilean economics specifically, and the
> archaeological as well as literary evidence thereof, and focuses precisely
> on the issues that James Crossley noted: the foundation of the urban
> centers, resultant monetization of the economy, and the PERCEPTION (or
> lack thereof) of change among the peasantry.
>
> Also valuable would be anything by Jonathan Reed, or Milton Moreland.
>
> For what it's worth, I don't think global characterizations of scholarly
> positions as "liberal" or "conservative" or "moderate" are especially
> helpful.
>
> regards,
> Bill
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game which
> combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into one!
> http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
>
> To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
> crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> List managers may be contacted directly at:
> crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Too bad. Eisenbrauns has it for $20.80...

Bigger isn't always cheaper :)

James

________________________________
James Spinti
Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 30 years
Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
Fax: 574-269-6788

-----Original Message-----
From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:13 PM
To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [XTalk] Galilean Economics

Durn Bill.  A quick trip to Amazon and I am $32.60 poorer.  You better
autograph it for me.

Seriously, it looks like a great read and an important one.  I
amred-faced
that I missed it.

Jack

Jack Kilmon
San Antonio, TX


----- Original Message -----
From: "William Arnal" <warnal@...>
To: <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:34 AM
Subject: RE: [XTalk] Galilean Economics


>
>
> Jack Kilmon writes:
>
>>I have read the works you
>>mention but rely heavily on Richard Horsley's two books, Archaeology,
>>History and Society in Galilee and Galilee: History, Politics, People.
>
> Yes, Horsley is a great source for this stuff. A VERY recent (2007 or
> 2008) publication that is dead-on this issue (Galilean economics and
the
> HJ) is Douglas Oakman's _Jesus and the Peasants_. Also, if I may be
> immodest, Arnal's _Jesus and the Village Scribes_ chapter 4 has a
fairly
> focused analysis of Galilean economics specifically, and the
> archaeological as well as literary evidence thereof, and focuses
precisely
> on the issues that James Crossley noted: the foundation of the urban
> centers, resultant monetization of the economy, and the PERCEPTION (or

> lack thereof) of change among the peasantry.
>
> Also valuable would be anything by Jonathan Reed, or Milton Moreland.
>
> For what it's worth, I don't think global characterizations of
scholarly
> positions as "liberal" or "conservative" or "moderate" are especially
> helpful.
>
> regards,
> Bill
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game which

> combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into one!
> http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/
>
> To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to:
> crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to:
crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> List managers may be contacted directly at:
> crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


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What evidence may be put forward to support the claim that GENWNTAI in
Matt. 4:3//Lk. 4:3 means 'be made', not 'become', and  that the hINA
found there  is "ecbatic" or eventual?


Has any commentator/grammarian ever argued that these words are to be
taken this way in Matt. 4:3//Lk. 4:3?

Yours,


Jeffrey

--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail jgibson000@...

Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
>
> What evidence may be put forward to support the claim that GENWNTAI in
> Matt. 4:3//Lk. 4:3 means 'be made', not 'become', and that the hINA
> found there is "ecbatic" or eventual?
>





Dear Jeffrey,

Sorry to be so thick, but can you explain the point of the question for
the benefit of a poor amateur theologian who often doesn't get the
technical niceties?

David Cavanagh
Major (The Salvation  Army)
Naples (Italy)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David Cavanagh wrote:
> Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
>
>> What evidence may be put forward to support the claim that GENWNTAI in
>> Matt. 4:3//Lk. 4:3 means 'be made', not 'become', and that the hINA
>> found there is "ecbatic" or eventual?
>>
>>
Dear Jeffrey,
> Sorry to be so thick, but can you explain the point of the question for
> the benefit of a poor amateur theologian who often doesn't get the
> technical niceties?
>

It would mean that the petition is not aimed at getting Jesus to work a miracle,
but to induce Jesus to act like Israel did when it was hungered to demand that
God produce one for him.

In other words, instead of meaning 'You yourself, Jesus, through power
which you possess as Son of God, make these(this) stones(stone) bread',
as it usually thought to do, it would mean  'Give the command (to God)
in order that these stones might be made (by God into) bread.  After
all, that's what Jesus' reply to the petition suggests that it means.

Jeffrey

--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail jgibson000@...

Dear Jeffrey,

Thanks....so the point would be that instead of proving his own power,
Jesus is being tempted to prove that he (the personal representative of
the new Israel) is specially favoured by God?

David Cavanagh
Major (The Salvation Army)
Naples (Italy)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David Cavanagh wrote:
> Dear Jeffrey,
>
> Thanks....so the point would be that instead of proving his own power,
> Jesus is being tempted to prove that he (the personal representative of
> the new Israel) is specially favoured by God?
>
First of all, he is not tempted.  He is tested.  And there is absolutely
no hint in the "temptation" story that Jesus is in need of, or is in any
way concerned about,  having it proved that he is the object of God's
special favour.  That he is -- and that he and the Devil know it -- is
the presupposition of the story.

Jesus is tested to see if he will refuse to do what Israel did  when
under the hardship of 'hunger', they, contrary to what Deut. 8: (cf.
esp. vv. 15-17; cf. Deut. 6:16) says they should  have done,  put god to
the test and demanded that God fulfill his obligations to "his son" by
feeding them.

Jeffrey

--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail jgibson000@...

Does any one know of any particular works devoted to NT conversion
narratives? I'm sure Paul's accounts have been looked at in detail, but I'm
thinking of conversion stories in general.

Thanks

Rikk Watts (Cantab)
Regent College, Vancouver

Rikk Watts wrote:
> Does any one know of any particular works devoted to NT conversion
> narratives? I'm sure Paul's accounts have been looked at in detail, but I'm
> thinking of conversion stories in general.
>
There's /Conversion in the New Testament: Paul and the Twelve/ **by
Richard Peace.

  From /Darkness to Light: Aspects of Conversion in the New Testament /by
Beverly Gaventa.

Out own Zeb Crook's /Reconceptualising Conversion: Patronage, Loyalty,
and Conversion in the Religions of the Ancient Mediterranean/
**
And what about A.D. Nock's /Conversion: The Old and the New in Religion
from Alexander the Great to Augustine of Hippo/?

You might want to explore concepts like "new birth" as well.

Jeffrey

--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail jgibson000@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
> Dear Jeffrey, you wrote:
> >
> First of all, he is not tempted. He is tested. And there is absolutely
> no hint in the "temptation" story that Jesus is in need of, or is in any
> way concerned about, having it proved that he is the object of God's
> special favour. That he is -- and that he and the Devil know it -- is
> the presupposition of the story.
>








Fair point about temptation and testing: I'm aware of the argument, but
just followed the traditional (and majority) translation.

If Jesus is being paralleled with Israel, however, I suggest that builds
in the question of God's favour. That both Jesus and the Devil know that
Jesus is God's "son" is true; but unless we opt for a simple appeal for
hunger, what is the Devil supposed to be hinging the test on? "Go on, if
you're really God's (beloved) Son, prove it! Tell him to turn these
stones into bread, then you'll have something to eat!". I'm aware, as
you suggest in the following paragraph (below) that the issue at stake
is trust -but the nature of testing/temptation is that the real issue is
veiled (it's not very effective to say, "I'm going to test your trust
now"!).
>
>
> Jesus is tested to see if he will refuse to do what Israel did when
> under the hardship of 'hunger', they, contrary to what Deut. 8: (cf.
> esp. vv. 15-17; cf. Deut. 6:16) says they should have done, put god to
> the test and demanded that God fulfill his obligations to "his son" by
> feeding them.
>








David Cavanagh
Major (The Salvation Army)
Naples (Italy)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com, Rikk Watts <rwatts@...> wrote:
>
> Does any one know of any particular works devoted to NT conversion
> narratives? I'm sure Paul's accounts have been looked at in detail, but I'm
> thinking of conversion stories in general.
>
> Thanks
>
> Rikk Watts (Cantab)
> Regent College, Vancouver
>
Rikk:

Scot McKnight, Turning to Jesus: The Sociology of Conversion in the Gospels

And the forthcoming Scot McKnight and Hauna Ondrey, Finding Faith, Losing Faith:
Stories
of Conversion and Apostasy

Warmly,

Doug Wilson
Senior Pastor
Bethany - A Place of New Beginnings
763 N. Sunset Avenue
West Covina, CA 91790-1298

email: newbeginning@...

Past Adjunct Professor at Azusa Pacific University

I�m sure you already know about Alan Segal�s Paul the Convert, Yale
University Press.

Liz Fried

Ann Arbor



   _____

From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of dougwilson24
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2008 11:42 AM
To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [XTalk] Re: conversion narratives?



--- In crosstalk2@yahoogro <mailto:crosstalk2%40yahoogroups.com> ups.com,
Rikk Watts <rwatts@...> wrote:
>
> Does any one know of any particular works devoted to NT conversion
> narratives? I'm sure Paul's accounts have been looked at in detail, but
I'm
> thinking of conversion stories in general.
>
> Thanks
>
> Rikk Watts (Cantab)
> Regent College, Vancouver
>
Rikk:

Scot McKnight, Turning to Jesus: The Sociology of Conversion in the Gospels

And the forthcoming Scot McKnight and Hauna Ondrey, Finding Faith, Losing
Faith: Stories
of Conversion and Apostasy

Warmly,

Doug Wilson
Senior Pastor
Bethany - A Place of New Beginnings
763 N. Sunset Avenue
West Covina, CA 91790-1298

email: newbeginning@ <mailto:newbeginning%40earthlink.net> earthlink.net

Past Adjunct Professor at Azusa Pacific University





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Friends:

I have lost track of the source for this statement by Bultmann.

"I do not believe it is possible to state sufficiently sharply the contrast in
the New Testament canon between the Synoptic Gospels on the one hand and the
Pauline letters and later literature on the other. It must still be a puzzle to
understand why Christianity, in which Pauline and post-Pauline tendencies played
so dominant a role, should also have the motives which drove it to take over and
shape the Synoptic tradition out of the Palestinian Church."

Can anyone help me?

Thanks,

Graham Twelftree


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Page 303, Bultmann, History of the Synoptic Tradition (Oxford: Basil
Blackwell,
1972; trans. John Marsh).
Stephen Goranson
http://www.duke.edu/~goranson

Quoting Graham Twelftree <grahtwe@...>:

> Friends:
>
> I have lost track of the source for this statement by Bultmann.
>
> "I do not believe it is possible to state sufficiently sharply the
> contrast in the New Testament canon between the Synoptic Gospels on
> the one hand and the Pauline letters and later literature on the
> other. It must still be a puzzle to understand why Christianity, in
> which Pauline and post-Pauline tendencies played so dominant a role,
> should also have the motives which drove it to take over and shape
> the Synoptic tradition out of the Palestinian Church."
>
> Can anyone help me?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Graham Twelftree
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

My thanks, indeed.
From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of goranson@...
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 1:20 PM
To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [XTalk] Bultmann quote


Page 303, Bultmann, History of the Synoptic Tradition (Oxford: Basil
Blackwell,
1972; trans. John Marsh).
Stephen Goranson
http://www.duke.edu/~goranson

Quoting Graham Twelftree <grahtwe@...<mailto:grahtwe%40regent.edu>>:

> Friends:
>
> I have lost track of the source for this statement by Bultmann.
>
> "I do not believe it is possible to state sufficiently sharply the
> contrast in the New Testament canon between the Synoptic Gospels on
> the one hand and the Pauline letters and later literature on the
> other. It must still be a puzzle to understand why Christianity, in
> which Pauline and post-Pauline tendencies played so dominant a role,
> should also have the motives which drove it to take over and shape
> the Synoptic tradition out of the Palestinian Church."
>
> Can anyone help me?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Graham Twelftree
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Isn't that from the History of the Synoptic Tradition? I'm not sure from where,
though, for I can't locate my copy.

   Jeffery Hodges

Graham Twelftree <grahtwe@...> wrote:
   Friends:

I have lost track of the source for this statement by Bultmann.

"I do not believe it is possible to state sufficiently sharply the contrast in
the New Testament canon between the Synoptic Gospels on the one hand and the
Pauline letters and later literature on the other. It must still be a puzzle to
understand why Christianity, in which Pauline and post-Pauline tendencies played
so dominant a role, should also have the motives which drove it to take over and
shape the Synoptic tradition out of the Palestinian Church."

Can anyone help me?

Thanks,

Graham Twelftree


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

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University Degrees:

Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
(Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

Email Address:

jefferyhodges@...

Blog:

http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

Office Address:

Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
School of English, Kyung Hee University
1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
Seoul, 130-701
South Korea

Home Address:

Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
Sangbong-dong 1
Jungnang-gu
Seoul 131-771
South Korea

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks. Stephen Goranson tracked it down to page 303, Bultmann, History of the
Synoptic Tradition (Oxford: Basil
Blackwell, 1972; trans. John Marsh).

http://www.regent.edu/acad/schdiv/faculty_staff/twelftree.shtml
From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Horace Jeffery Hodges
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 3:39 PM
To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [XTalk] Bultmann quote


Isn't that from the History of the Synoptic Tradition? I'm not sure from where,
though, for I can't locate my copy.

Jeffery Hodges

Graham Twelftree <grahtwe@...<mailto:grahtwe%40regent.edu>> wrote:
Friends:

I have lost track of the source for this statement by Bultmann.

"I do not believe it is possible to state sufficiently sharply the contrast in
the New Testament canon between the Synoptic Gospels on the one hand and the
Pauline letters and later literature on the other. It must still be a puzzle to
understand why Christianity, in which Pauline and post-Pauline tendencies played
so dominant a role, should also have the motives which drove it to take over and
shape the Synoptic tradition out of the Palestinian Church."

Can anyone help me?

Thanks,

Graham Twelftree

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University Degrees:

Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
(Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

Email Address:

jefferyhodges@...<mailto:jefferyhodges%40yahoo.com>

Blog:

http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

Office Address:

Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
School of English, Kyung Hee University
1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
Seoul, 130-701
South Korea

Home Address:

Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
Sangbong-dong 1
Jungnang-gu
Seoul 131-771
South Korea

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, I noticed that after my post. Thanks.

   Jeffery Hodges

Graham Twelftree <grahtwe@...> wrote:
   Hi Jeff,

Thanks. Stephen Goranson tracked it down to page 303, Bultmann, History of the
Synoptic Tradition (Oxford: Basil
Blackwell, 1972; trans. John Marsh).

http://www.regent.edu/acad/schdiv/faculty_staff/twelftree.shtml
From: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Horace Jeffery Hodges
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2008 3:39 PM
To: crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [XTalk] Bultmann quote


Isn't that from the History of the Synoptic Tradition? I'm not sure from where,
though, for I can't locate my copy.

Jeffery Hodges

Graham Twelftree > wrote:
Friends:

I have lost track of the source for this statement by Bultmann.

"I do not believe it is possible to state sufficiently sharply the contrast in
the New Testament canon between the Synoptic Gospels on the one hand and the
Pauline letters and later literature on the other. It must still be a puzzle to
understand why Christianity, in which Pauline and post-Pauline tendencies played
so dominant a role, should also have the motives which drove it to take over and
shape the Synoptic tradition out of the Palestinian Church."

Can anyone help me?

Thanks,

Graham Twelftree

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/

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To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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University Degrees:

Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
(Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

Email Address:

jefferyhodges@...

Blog:

http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

Office Address:

Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
School of English, Kyung Hee University
1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
Seoul, 130-701
South Korea

Home Address:

Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
Sangbong-dong 1
Jungnang-gu
Seoul 131-771
South Korea

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


------------------------------------

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University Degrees:

Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
(Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

Email Address:

jefferyhodges@...

Blog:

http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

Office Address:

Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
School of English, Kyung Hee University
1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
Seoul, 130-701
South Korea

Home Address:

Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
Sangbong-dong 1
Jungnang-gu
Seoul 131-771
South Korea

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Does anyone know if there is available online anywhere an abstract for
Seung Ai Yang's 1990 University of Chicago Dissertation: �The Original
Intention of the Longer Version of the Temptation Story of Jesus (Matt
4:11; Luke 4:1-13) as a Jewish Story of God�s Testing of the Righteous
Man Jesus�?

I'd be very grateful to receive it if you can locate it.

Yours

--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail jgibson000@...

Have you tried contacting her personally? She seems to be here:

   http://www.stthomas.edu/spssod/facultystaff/ourfaculty/default.html

   Jeffery Hodges

"Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...> wrote:
   Does anyone know if there is available online anywhere an abstract for
Seung Ai Yang's 1990 University of Chicago Dissertation: �The Original
Intention of the Longer Version of the Temptation Story of Jesus (Matt
4:11; Luke 4:1-13) as a Jewish Story of God�s Testing of the Righteous
Man Jesus?

I'd be very grateful to receive it if you can locate it.

Yours

--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail jgibson000@...


------------------------------------

The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/

To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com

Yahoo! Groups Links






University Degrees:

Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
(Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

Email Address:

jefferyhodges@...

Blog:

http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

Office Address:

Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
School of English, Kyung Hee University
1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
Seoul, 130-701
South Korea

Home Address:

Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
Sangbong-dong 1
Jungnang-gu
Seoul 131-771
South Korea

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
> Have you tried contacting her personally? She seems to be here:
>
>   http://www.stthomas.edu/spssod/facultystaff/ourfaculty/default.html
>
Thanks for this.  But  Seung Ai is  now at Catholic Theological Union
here in Chicago.  And yes, I sent a message to her.  But so far no response.

Jeffrey

--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail jgibson000@...

I should have realized that it was too easy to be true.

   Jeffery Hodges

"Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...> wrote:
   Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:
> Have you tried contacting her personally? She seems to be here:
>
> http://www.stthomas.edu/spssod/facultystaff/ourfaculty/default.html
>
Thanks for this. But Seung Ai is now at Catholic Theological Union
here in Chicago. And yes, I sent a message to her. But so far no response.

Jeffrey

--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail jgibson000@...


------------------------------------

The XTalk Home Page is http://ntgateway.com/xtalk/

To subscribe to Xtalk, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

To unsubscribe, send an e-mail to: crosstalk2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

List managers may be contacted directly at: crosstalk2-owners@yahoogroups.com

Yahoo! Groups Links






University Degrees:

Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
(Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

Email Address:

jefferyhodges@...

Blog:

http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

Office Address:

Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
School of English, Kyung Hee University
1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
Seoul, 130-701
South Korea

Home Address:

Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
Sangbong-dong 1
Jungnang-gu
Seoul 131-771
South Korea

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Apologies for cross posting.

Does any list member have (or have access to) The Testing of Jesus in Q
(Peter Lang, 2007) by C. Michael Robbins?  It is not available in any of
my local libraries.

If you have (or have access to) it, would you please get in touch with
me?  I'd love a scan of its Summary and Conclusions.

Yours,

Jeffrey


--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail jgibson000@...

Apologies for cross posting, but I'd like to have as many people as
possible see the questions and requests I'm posting in this message.

I'm revising some older work on what commentators have said  with
respect to the question of what the Devil is "up to" in the Matthean and
Lukan versions of the story of Jesus Wilderness "temptation" (Mt.
4:1-11//Lk. 4:1-13). So far as I can see, there are five positions.

In the Matthean and Lukan versions of the Wilderness "temptation" story
the devil is trying to discover:

(1) if Jesus would act to his own advantage, and independently of God,
with respect to his physical needs, particularly his need for
sustenance, and thus fall prey to such forbidden things as "the lust of
the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life";

(2) if Jesus  would act to his own advantage with respect to his
psychological needs, particularly the need to be certain that he was
"the Son of God", and thus show a profound mistrust in God;

(3) if Jesus  would be willing to compel others through Schauwunderen,,
and more particularly ones that would instantly be recognizable and
accepted as a phenomenon authenticating a claim to Messiahship, to
accept him as "the Son of God", and thus not only make concessions to
unbelief, but render unlikely, if not impossible, the response of
radical faith which later in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke Jesus
demands from all who are confronted by what he says and does.

(4) if, in the interest of securing what God wishes him to secure, if
Jesus would be willing to chose a way of being God's Son that is not
God's way and would attempt to use means of obtaining what God has
determined he would obtain that are not, according to Matthew and Luke,
God's means.

(5) how resolved Jesus is to hold on to a particular costly and
seemingly foolish pattern of sonship -- that of the εἰρηνοποιός --
with
which he is already familiar and to which he is presented at the time of
his Wilderness "temptation" as having already been called.

I'd be glad to hear from List Members if there are any other scholarly
positions I haven't listed.  I'd also like to be as complete as possible
about who stands where.  So I'd  be grateful as well if List members
would give me the names of those you know to be advocates of one or the
other (or of several) of the listed (and unlisted) stances.

With thanks in advance for help with this.

Yours,

Jeffrey

--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail jgibson000@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000@...>
To: "Crosstalk2" <crosstalk2@yahoogroups.com>; "Christian Origins"
<christian_origins@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "biblical-studies" <biblical-studies@yahoogroups.com>; "NewSynoptic"
<Synoptic@yahoogroups.com>; <ematthew@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 3:01 PM
Subject: [XTalk] what the devil is the Devil "up to" in the wilderness
temptation narrative?


> Apologies for cross posting, but I'd like to have as many people as
> possible see the questions and requests I'm posting in this message.
>
> I'm revising some older work on what commentators have said  with
> respect to the question of what the Devil is "up to" in the Matthean and
> Lukan versions of the story of Jesus Wilderness "temptation" (Mt.
> 4:1-11//Lk. 4:1-13). So far as I can see, there are five positions.
>
> In the Matthean and Lukan versions of the Wilderness "temptation" story
> the devil is trying to discover:
>
> (1) if Jesus would act to his own advantage, and independently of God,
> with respect to his physical needs, particularly his need for
> sustenance, and thus fall prey to such forbidden things as "the lust of
> the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life";
>
> (2) if Jesus  would act to his own advantage with respect to his
> psychological needs, particularly the need to be certain that he was
> "the Son of God", and thus show a profound mistrust in God;
>
> (3) if Jesus  would be willing to compel others through Schauwunderen,,
> and more particularly ones that would instantly be recognizable and
> accepted as a phenomenon authenticating a claim to Messiahship, to
> accept him as "the Son of God", and thus not only make concessions to
> unbelief, but render unlikely, if not impossible, the response of
> radical faith which later in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke Jesus
> demands from all who are confronted by what he says and does.
>
> (4) if, in the interest of securing what God wishes him to secure, if
> Jesus would be willing to chose a way of being God's Son that is not
> God's way and would attempt to use means of obtaining what God has
> determined he would obtain that are not, according to Matthew and Luke,
> God's means.
>
> (5) how resolved Jesus is to hold on to a particular costly and
> seemingly foolish pattern of sonship -- that of the εἰρηνοποιός --
with
> which he is already familiar and to which he is presented at the time of
> his Wilderness "temptation" as having already been called.
>
> I'd be glad to hear from List Members if there are any other scholarly
> positions I haven't listed.  I'd also like to be as complete as possible
> about who stands where.  So I'd  be grateful as well if List members
> would give me the names of those you know to be advocates of one or the
> other (or of several) of the listed (and unlisted) stances.
>
> With thanks in advance for help with this.
>
> Yours,
>
> Jeffrey


I am sure there is a sizeable corpus of literature regarding the temptation
in the wilderness but instead of researching them for others' thoughts, I
will give mine.  The story is first told in Matthew if one believes, as I
do,  Matthew preceded Luke.  The first question I have to ask myself is
where a Syrian Jewish convert to Christianity obtained this story in the
last decades of the 1st century.

My opinion is that this story is tied together with the story of Jesus'
baptism by John and the source for the baptism/temptation was the lost
Gospel of the Hebrews.  The story of the Baptism in the GoH was recorded by
Epiphanius Pan 30 13,7-8. It is the only quote among the 10 or so surviving
fragments with a parallel in the Synoptics.

"After the people had been baptised Jesus also came and was baptised by
John.  And when he ascended from the water the heavens opened and he saw the
Holy Spirit in the form of a dove descending and coming to him. And a voice
from heaven said: Thou art my beloved son, in thee I am well pleased. THIS
DAY I HAVE GENERATED THEE."

I think this was followed by the wandering in the wilderness and the
temptation and the Matthean scribe had a copy or an extract from the
"original Matthew" which was the GoH.

In Judaism, Satan was an angel who was a member of the Divine Council, a
sort of prosecuting attorney for God who tests God's elite such as Job and
Zechariah.  Satan had no power of independent action and could only act with
God's permission.  I think that was the role of Satan in the Jewish Aramaic
Gospel of the Hebrews, therefore it was GOD who was testing Jesus after
having ADOPTED him on the occasion of his baptism by John.  Jesus became the
Bar d'Alaha on the occasion of his baptism but the canonical Matthew moved
that sonship to his birth and Paul moved it to his crucifixion.

Originally, IMO, both stories worked together to have God 1. ADOPT Jesus and
then 2. TEST Jesus.


shlama amek

Jack


Jack Kilmon
San Antonio, Texas

Gordon Raynal wrote:
> Whether Matthew and Luke got the expanded "40" narrative from Q or a
> popular common sermon/ lesson both had access to, the expanded midrash
> on the wilderness wanderings is structurally about the 3 great
> challenges of nationhood: the intersection of economics (bread),
> religion (the temple trip) and political power (to the mountains).  As
> Jesus embodies Israel's life and is recapitulating the journey in "the
> way" of faithfulness he is confronted by Satan (aka the tempter) with
> Israel's past, namely--- Israel had whined in the wilderness over
> bread and said to Moses "let's go back to Egypt," at the wilderness
> temple of God... Mount Sinai... they gave up on the very life of God
> by building the golden Hathor of Egypt while Moses was up there
>  getting that life and then they feared "the nations" and refused to
> go forth thus incurring the judgement of God.  Jesus, of course, does
> not fall to the ancient fears, idolatry and thus cowardice.  He is
> faithful.  And this makes for stinging commentary on the leadership of
> Jesus' day who had "sold out" economically, religiously and
> politically to the Roman overlords.  As the Christos of the Kingdom he
> thus begins by embodying the very heart of the Torah story and the
> expanded midrash particularly emphasizes this.
>
> Anyone writing about the narrative in this way?
Well, most commentators accept an Israel in the Wilderness typology for
the testing story.  But only some read the story with the particular
reference points in the post exodus narrative that you've adduced.  And
note that you have to mix up a few things in the story (bread testing at
the temple?  Jesus on the mountain (in Matthew) people below?) to get
the typologies that you think are there.   And, if I read you correctly,
   on your understanding -- which seems to be that of T.W. Manson (see
below), all the Matthean and Lukan Jesus ends up doing by the end of it
is having an understanding of what Sonship does *not* entail, what he
wont do, not what he is called to be and will do as Son. But in the
light of the evidence of Mt. 5.39-46//Lk 6.27-35, where the Evangelists
have Jesus precisely delineate who sons of God are and what being Son
entails, can this be maintained?   How can Jesus have such knowledge if
after his temptation he was still unclear on what positively was
involved in living out that office?

Jeffrey

     T.W. Manson (/The Sayings of Jesus/ [London: SCM Press, 1949] p.
     46): `And here we may note that Jesus does not set forth the
     positive features of His own conception of His ministry. He rejects
     a number of proposals quite decisively, as much as to say: Whatever
     else God may have appointed me to do, it is not this or this' (my
     italics



--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
Chicago, Illinois
e-mail jgibson000@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm sorry for this- but if you email me please use drjewest@...