greeneto <tgreene@...> wrote:

Hi, Robert.

You can inform Gary Smith, Marion Fox, and the other BereanSpirit
members that I will debate them any time. Please feel free to copy
this post. I will also discuss these topics on this "creationism"
discussion list or on any other discussion list. However, I will not
engage in discussion on any list that is moderated by a YEC who will
simply censor my posts or boot me off because he doesn't like what I
say. In fact, because of my direct experience with the shenanigans of
YEC "moderators," I will not accept any YEC moderator. If there is to
be a moderator, this moderator must not be of the YEC persuasion. (I
would accept someone such as, for example, Tom Couchman, or David
Mathews, or Al Maxey.) The other requirement I have for any formal
debate is that the debate be focused on a specific topic. YECs are
notorious for throwing in 58 misrepresentations of 58 different
items, and it is impossible to deal with this within the format
restrictions of a formal debate.

Below are some specific topics for consideration, just as some
examples. (In light of Steve Heiden's archive of the discussion
surrounding Marion Fox's book, which I have a copy of, I would also
be amenable to discussing rock deformation, though I must admit that
I don't see the direct relevance of the subject to YEC. However, it
does directly show Marion's intentional misrepresentation of geology.
I would discuss rock weathering. I have recently learned about the
remnant of a very ancient volcano on the shore of Lake Superior near
Duluth, Minnesota. Now when was the last time a volcano erupted in
the Great Lakes area?!?! This volcano has been severely eroded. It is
impossible for this volcano to have been eroded almost away in less
than 6,000 years - even if there was global flood! The physical facts
about rock weathering just blows YEC away. I would discuss
Setterfield lightspeed decay, Humphreys cosmology, the Moon & Spencer
conjecture. There are many specific subjects I will debate or
discuss. If it is to be a formal debate, I absolutely insist that the
topic of any particular debate be focused on a specific topic.)

I think that the members of the BereanSpirit list should also be
referred to the following two posts here on the "creationism" list:

Gary Smith claims, without citing a single reference, that Earth
impact craters support YEC:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/creationism/message/5008

Todd Greene gives 27 online references giving information showing
unequivocally that Gary Smith's claim about Earth impact craters
is completely wrong:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/creationism/message/5012

BereanSpirit members should know that since my #5012 post, which I
presented on April 14th, I've been patiently waiting for Gary Smith's
acknowledgement of the falseness of his argument, and as of May 1st
Gary has been completely silent on this. So you tell me, who's
the "big talker," and why is he talking about other people being "big
talkers"? Something's not right about this.

Regards,
Todd S. Greene
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/7755/

-  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

Proposition: With SN1987A we observe that the universe has been in
existence for at least approximately 168,000 years.

Affirm: Todd S. Greene
Deny: Gary Smith

-  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

Proposition: Those who accept an old universe have no explanation for
the present existence of short-term comets.

Affirm: Gary Smith
Deny: Todd S. Greene

-  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

Proposition: The geological features of earth impact craters prove
that the earth has been in existence for millions of years.

Affirm: Todd S. Greene
Deny: Gary Smith



###### Robert Baty ######
> I didn't see any replies to this at Al's place, so I figured I
> would post it here, FWIW.  I think Gary is on both lists.  Seems
> like he might be a good candidate to work with Todd and Marion to
> put together a discussion?
>
> Sincerely,
> Robert Baty
>
> #########################
>
> From:  rlbaty@w...
> Date:  Tue Apr 30, 2002  10:13 pm
>
> Gary writes, in part:
>
> "This much I do know.
>
> There is not a single big talker on this list that will discuss
> with Marion these issues publicly where charts and illustrations
> and methodical argumentation can be explained to an audience.
>
> I am willing to discuss these issues publicly with anyone, but
> Marion is much better equipted to do so. Yet, many talk big here
> and literally shake at the idea of finding anyone prepared to talk
> to him publicly."
>
> #######################
> #######################
>
> My comments:
>
> Except for some political purposes, why should "on this list" be a
> relevant concern.
>
> As far as I know, Todd Greene still has an interest in debating
> Marion Fox on some relevant and specific related proposition.
>
> I've been repeatedly trying to get you guys to work out the
> details.
>
> Why hasn't Marion himself been taking up his interest in such a
> debate with Todd Greene. Is his interest in a legitimate debate
> only feigned on this list (where he apparently is no longer even a
> member).
>
> Even I tried while he was on this list to resolve some of the
> simpler related matters with Marion; to no avail. Todd Greene is
> waiting and has an outstanding invitation to Marion if he
> wants to get serious about discussing some relevant, specific
> proposition regarding these matters.
>
> Consider that, please, next time you want to present Marion as
> being a YEC with no adversary that will meet him.
>
> Personally, for my own interests, I have met Marion on this list
> and defeated him and his error(s); for those that haven't noticed!
> I guess my opinion on that is as good as any, and better than
> most. :o)
>
> Sincerely,
> Robert Baty
>Gary here

To Robert and Todd:

   Marion would be willing to debate some of these issues , but somehow the basic subject matter seems toi change. I do not believe that Marion or myself have that much problem with other's theories concerning the age of the universe. I consider this a complex subject and though I disagree with some theories, I am not stronly persuaded one way or the other. I doubt that Marion is. But I think that He would be much open to discussing the age of the earth, the flood and evolution. Neither of us are that adamant in affirming much about the universe but would love to have a discussion on earth age, the flood, and evolution. NOw, I suggest that you solidify a position on thes things and let us discuss.--------Gary

> Message 53299 of 53361

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