Hi group, I'm a newbie here.  I have an awesome Space Invaders game
that I wrote about 20 years ago for the ELF II.  Full graphics and
gameroom action and all.  It even makes Q click when you hit suff! (If
you were one of those folks who pu a speaker on Q).  I still have
machine readable source code for it (actually the code exists on a
mainframe where my 1802 cross-assembler lives).  I want to run this
code again but my actual ELF hardware is somewhat less than operative.
  What's the status of emulators for ELF II? (I know there is the
original ELF emulator complete with toggles but is needs the 4k
expansion card etc...)  Anyone got an interest in this?

Old but sill 8bit at heart.
Charlie

Lee Hart's contribution of the IDIOT/4 monitor is now available on
cosmacelf.com. This monitor ran on the 1802-based SBCs from TMSI
back in the early eighties. Thanks for the contribution, Lee!

Dave

A second gallery page has been added at:

http://www.cosmacelf.com/gallery2.htm

This page features photos contributed by George Musser and Steve
Gemeny. Thanks for the pictures, guys!

Dave

Lee Hart's offer of the 5101s is a far better deal, but for anyone interested
in finding the old 2101s, Unicorn Electronics still has some listed on their
site:

http://www.unicornelectronics.com

Sorry, I have no idea where to locate an 1861... I only have the single chip
in my old ELF II board, and I'd hate to deprive the poor thing of it's only
real means of expression...

Dave

On Saturday 16 February 2002 07:51 am, you wrote:
> I'm looking for a CDP1861CD chip for my old ELF.  I built mine back
> in the late 70's from a Netronics kit.  I also need a 2101 ram chip,
> but I can probably find that somewhere else.

PS: I also have an RCA CDP1855CD multiply-divide unit, if anyone needs
one.
--
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen

michael brown wrote:
> It seems that he let tom pitman use his computer to develop Tiny
> BASIC, in exchange for a copy.

This was for the first version of Tiny BASIC that Tom wrote; it was tor
the Motorola 6800 microprocessor. He wrote the 1802 version later. I
think he wrote other versions as well. The 1802 version was the
smallest; Tom maintained that the 1802 was the most memory efficient of
all the early CPUs.
--
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen

n5qmg wrote:
>
> I'm looking for a CDP1861CD chip for my old ELF.  I built mine back
> in the late 70's from a Netronics kit.  I also need a 2101 ram chip,
> but I can probably find that somewhere else.

I have about 100 RCA and NEC 5101 RAMs (the CMOS version of the 2101;
pin-for-pin compatible and 1/100th the power). First two are free (ELF
builder's special :-) Additional chips at $0.25 each. Just send me a
stamped self-addressed envelope.

As for the 1861, it is hard to get. I have a couple, but they are in
working VIPs.

It occurs to me that this is such a simple chip that it would be
possible to program a PAL chip to emulate one. It would be worthwhile if
there was enough demand.

And, if we programmed our own, we could eliminate some of the 1861's
shortcomings. For example, so it didn't require 2-cycle instructions to
maintain synchronization. And, to add a 2x resolution mode to display 16
bytes (128 pixels) instead of 8 bytes (64 pixels) per horizontal line,
to work with a 3.58 MHz clock.
--
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen

I was poking around the net and found this url that might be of some
interest to you all.
http://www.pacificsites.com/~brooke/comp.shtml
It seems that he let tom pitman use his computer to develop tiny basic, in
exchange for a copy.

Michael Brown
Instant Net Solutions
www.KillerPCs.net

"In the land of the blind, he who has one eye is king"

I'm looking for a CDP1861CD chip for my old ELF.  I built mine back
in the late 70's from a Netronics kit.  I also need a 2101 ram chip,
but I can probably find that somewhere else.

I have been searching the internet for the cdp1861 since 1995, but
haven't found one.  I was glad to find out that the Studio 2 tv game
has those chips in them.  Maybe I can find one of those eventually,
if nothing else.

If anyone has a working 1861, I would be willing to purchase it.

thanks

michael

Gemeny, Steve wrote:
> Being inspired by the on-line activity, I have unearthed my 1802 parts
> from the basement and re-birthed the original ELF on a proper wire
> wrap board. I have been able to teach my 11 year old son about wire
> wrapping, memory, Bits, Bytes, Nibbles, Hex and Binary as well as
> registers and basic program flow.

That's wonderful! Isaac Asimov said, "Any sufficiently advanced
technology is indistinguishable from magic." And that is what we have
done with computers. We have made them so complicated that no one can
truly understand them any more -- they have become magic.

The trouble is, magic is enigmatic, inscrutible; not understandable. It
deliberately complicates and obscures how things work. When you treat a
technology as magic, you put it in the hands of the experts; "wizards"
that have to do everything for you. You can't build it, or fix it, or
modify it yourself.

There are lots of problems with relying on experts. One big one is that
you can't move ahead. Without simple examples to learn from, there is no
way to study, improve, grow, or advance. How are future computer experts
going to get started, if they treat computers as magic?

The 1802 is the "bicycle" of computers. Something so simple that even a
kid can use it, fix it, understand it, and learn how it works. Like a
bicycle, it is an elegant combination of parts that is just enough to do
the job, and no more. The 1802 gives you that "aha!" moment, when you
truly understand and so are ready to advance to more complicated
computers.

> I really hate to see it relegated to what some have called "an odd,
> archaic, primitive micro controller" but if primitive it is... well,
> it works well enough to be in some of the most prestigious places in
> the solar system... and beyond!

I couldn't agree more!
--
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen

All,

Stewart Marshall wrote:
> It is curious and wonderful, the appeal this
  > little chip continues to have!

This is really true.  Many folks simply don't realize how wide spread the
use of this landmark device was.

I too built an elf from the construction article in the late 70s.  I was
fresh out of high school and wanted a computer in the worst way.  I had been
shopping for an Altair or an IMSAI but I just couldn't come up with the
$500+ .  I was thrilled when I saw the first article on the elf and had
parts ordered within a week.

My copy of the August '76 PE (now ensconced in a plastic jacket) bares the
scars of being well read and annotated during the construction.  Over the
several months, I upgraded the elf with most of the accessories in the
following articles.  Finally, being employed full time in the electronics
field, I decided to upgrade to the QUEST Super elf.  I abandoned the elf and
it faded into oblivion and was lost.  I have kept the Super Elf, fully
equipped with 4 K of ram, the QUEST Super ROM Monitor and Tom Pittman's TINY
BASIC, complete with all of the documentation.  Presently, My Super ELF is
operational running Tiny Basic with the newly assembled (Psudosam 18) IO
routines blown into a fresh 2716 at 300 baud into my Pentium 133 running
ProComm as a TTY (Oh the irony of it all).

But that's not the end of the story...

Being inspired by the on line activity, I have unearthed my 1802 parts from
the basement and re-birthed the original ELF on a proper wire wrap board.  I
have been able to teach my 11 year old son about wire wrapping, memory,
Bits, Bytes, Nibbles, Hex and Binary as well as registers and basic program
flow..  If only for this, it was worth the effort.  But I also have the
satisfaction of recreating a significant piece on techno history. (Build
your own now while you still can.)

What most people think of when discussing the 1802 is the early video games.
Most people do not realize is how significant this quirky little micro
processor has been in the space and medical worlds.

As I was pouring through the web, I discovered that the 1802 was the
preferred flight microprocessor for dozens of satellites and space based
science instrument for over a decade.  As recently as 2000, the 1802 was
relied upon as the flight processor for the Internal Housekeeping Unit (IHU)
of an Amateur Radio Satellite, AO-40 (Ref 1).

But the significance of the 1802 was not limited to the ham radio
satellites, Galileo flies with 17 of them on board.  Each of the 11
instruments is controlled by an 1802.  The Command Data System is comprised
of two redundant strings of three 1802s.The 1802 is delivering real-time
science data that is in the news NOW!  ( ref 3
<http://galileo.jpl.nasa.gov/news/release/press020115.html> ) The spacecraft
and the quirky little 1802s have survived nearly 3 times longer than the
design life and have endured nearly 4 times the anticipated radiation
levels. (It's the RAD hard nature of the 1802 as much as the low power that
makes it so attractive for space flight.) This is a true testament to the
endurance and and significance of this little micro to the science
community.

But wait... There's more.

I have recently uncovered some documentation in my employer's archive that
suggests (I'm still waiting on some of the details to arrive) that the 1802
was the micro of choice for the medical implant community.  I have found
studies from the early eighties describing this application and highlighting
yet another quirky feature of this quirky processor.  It seems that stopping
the clock on most micros is bad, since the internal registers are usually
dynamic memory.  The internal architecture needs a minimum clock frequency
to refresh these registers.  The 1802 has no minimum clock frequency.  The
use of CMOS allows the registers to be static in nature and the contents are
preserved even with no clock at all.  Stopping the clock on an 1802 places
the chip into a kind of stasis with an amazingly low power consumption... on
the order of several NANO-WATTS in some parts.   A process for screening
production chips to identify these special parts was developed but RCA
declined to implement it.  This screening was conducted regularly, here from
standard production runs of 1802s and these special chips were used in
implantable medical devices until fairly recently.  I don't yet know the
specifics on these devices, I presume them to be pace makers and timed
medication delivery devices and I don't know the quantities but presume them
to be experimental and in the hundreds.

While the 1802 was special for me (it set me on a rewarding career path), it
should be special in the hearts of, perhaps, hundreds of folks who have
benefited from having it pumping away inside them to regulate their own
heartbeat and deliver medication.  It should be special to thousands of
scientists around the world whose research would not be possible without it.
It should be special to tens of thousands of Amateur Radio operators who
rely on it for the operations of the satellites they frequently communicate
through.  And it should be special to the millions of people who have
marveled at the images of other worlds brought to them courtesy of the
quirky little 1802.

I really hate to see it relegated to what some have called "an odd, archaic,
primitive micro controller" but if primitive it is... well, it works well
enough to be in some of the most prestigious places in the solar system...
and beyond!



Steve Gemeny

aa3nm@... <mailto:aa3nm@...>


Ref.
   1) AO-40 (P3D) IMU-2 an experimental replacement for the 1802
       http://www.amsat.org/amsat/sats/phase3d/ihu2.html
<http://www.amsat.org/amsat/sats/phase3d/ihu2.html>
       A0-40 (P#D)  IMU
       http://www.amsat.org/amsat/sats/phase3d/ihu.html
<http://www.amsat.org/amsat/sats/phase3d/ihu.html>

  2)  Galileo FAQ
       http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/galileo/faqcomp.html
<http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/galileo/faqcomp.html>
       Galileo Engineering information
       http://www.wcresa.k12.mi.us/nasa/engineer.htm
<http://www.wcresa.k12.mi.us/nasa/engineer.htm>

3)  Galileo Current Events
     http://galileo.jpl.nasa.gov/news/release/press020115.html
<http://galileo.jpl.nasa.gov/news/release/press020115.html>



  <http://www.amsat.org/amsat/articles/g3ruh/124.html>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lee Hart <leeahart@e...> wrote:

> At present, I sent my master disks to Stewart Marshall (who's name I
> have also seen on this list). He has a lot of my old 1802 stuff, and
> said he had an 8" system that might be able to read them.

For anyone interested, my 8 in. drive setup is not too hard to
construct.  I have an ordinary 8 in. floppy drive (any number of brands
will work - Qume DT-8, Shugart 800/850, 1/2-height Tandon 848) set up
as B drive on a 286 PC.  The 34 to 50 pin adaptor is easy to rig up
from the pinouts on the CP/M FAQ online, and the FDC is the famous
MicroSolutions CompatiCard.  These turn up regularly on eBay and with
computer recyclers; and will actually handle four attached floppies if
you wish.  Some regular AT-class FDC cards from IBM clones will work
also, for single density work with an 8 in. drive.  This is what I used
for a number of years before finding a Compaticard.  Note that the FDC
has to be from a clone, not an actual IBM machine; and also has to be
an AT style for 1.2 mb 5.25 in. HD service.  The older 360k DD
controllers will NOT work. Also note that a 286 or 386 is the desired
host.  There are a couple of issues with newer, faster PC's.  One is a
timing thing, where the new PC's are just too fast to communicate
easily with the old slow drives; and then also the various suitable
FDC's are all for ISA bus.  But of course, with every recycle yard full
of $10. 286's, this is no hardship!  The software is all DOS-based
shareware found online:  Anadisk to examine disk sectors, dump code,
edit disks; 22Disk to read various formats and recover data from them,
transfer between formats, etc.; and TeleDisk for making exact copies of
any disk (regardless of format)and making disk image files for
archiving to hard drive or CD-ROM. I did pay for the full version of
22Disk at one point, for more formats; but the demo version has quite a
few, maybe over a hundred floppy formats. This rig has been very useful
since I have a number of older machines with 8 in. drives, like TRS-80
Models 12/16, CompuPro 8/16, Advanced Digital Super-6, and Cromemco.
It lets me receive raw code or antique software as a download from the
Net, or attached to e-mail from another user, onto my G3 Macintosh,
then dump to a DOS floppy for transfer over to the older PC, then right
onto the appropriate 8 in. disk for the vintage machines.  More fun
than we should be allowed to have!

cheers, Stew

"druske" <dave@r...> wrote:

> I suppose you could try
> posting to the Classic Computer mailing list, there are folks there
> with all manner of strange antiques:
>
> http://www.classiccmp.org

Hahaha, Dave.  Telling Lee to post to that CP/M list is like teaching
your grandma to suck eggs, as the saying goes.  He is an old timer on
there, one of the mainstays, the guys with the answers when the rest of
us have a question!  Hey, Lee, I see you found us on the new yahoo ELF
list!  Welcome aboard.  This 1802 revival needs chaps like you who were
there in the beginning.  It is curious and wonderful, the appeal this
little chip continues to have!  All the best for now,

cheers, Stewart Marshall

Marshall Systems
Lopez Island, WA

Lee Hart wrote:
>> Forth Inc's polyFORTH for the 1802 was something like $500.
>> We wrote 8TH as a cheaper alternative.

druske wrote:
> Wow, I wonder how many $500 compilers Forth Inc. sold for the
> 1802. That must've worked out to something like a nickel per
> byte! Wish I could charge that kind of rate for my code...

Remember that the value of a piece of software (or most anything else)
is not what it cost you, but what it is worth to the buyer.

For quite a while, the 1802 was the only ultra-low power, ultra-high
reliability, ultra-noise immune microcomputer you could get. If your
application demanded these features, you had to use the 1802.

But the 1802 has a peculiar instruction set; not inferior, just
different. It scared many programmers; they'd only use it if they could
program it in a high level language.

FORTH was the first high level language you could get for the 1802. Even
as others became available, FORTH still outperformed them by a wide
margin. Thus it was an extremely valuable program for getting your
product out the door. That's why it was so expensive.

My first 1802 product was a sound level meter / data logger. It was the
size of a pack of cigarettes, and ran for a week on a 9v battery. You
stuck it in your pocket, with the microphone in your ear, and it logged
every sound level you were exposed to in your workplace. Then the data
was read out, and used to decide whether or not you were meeting the
complex OSHA noise standards. This was in 1977! The product was only
possible because of the 1802.

We assumed a 1k byte EPROM was big enough (the largest size available in
low-power CMOS at the time). But no matter how we squeezed and schemed,
we could not get the program to fit. Then we bought FORTH. First, it was
10 times faster to write, compile, and debug programs. Second, the FORTH
program was 2/3 the size of optimized assembler! Without FORTH, we still
might have gotten the product to market, but it would have cost more for
the hardware and software development would have been much slower.

> As for Tiny, I did a Google search a while back and found what seemed
> to be a recent email address for Tom Pittman, but while the email
> didn't bounce, I never received a reply.

Let me know, and I can try again. I had a license agreement with him, so
he may remember my name. Though I hate to speak for someone else, I
would bet he would not object to his Tiny BASIC going public. Tom was
one of the nicest software producers I ever dealt with, and even back
then he only charged a trivial fee for it.

>> Another problem is that my source is on 8" floppies for the old
>> 1802 development system, which has gone to the computer
>> graveyard. Thus I don't have any way to read these disks.

> That sounds like a fairly serious problem. I suppose you could try
> posting to the Classic Computer mailing list, there are folks there
> with all manner of strange antiques:

At present, I sent my master disks to Stewart Marshall (who's name I
have also seen on this list). He has a lot of my old 1802 stuff, and
said he had an 8" system that might be able to read them.

>> You got 16 lines of 16 characters? Wow. Seems like they would
>> be twice as wide as they are high. Was it readable?
>
> XXX XXX XXX XXX     XXX XXX
> X   X X X X  X      X X X
> XXX X X XXX  X      X X XXX
>   X X X XX   X      X X X
> XXX XXX X X  X      XXX X   XXX XXX XXX

This came through fine. But since the 1861's best resolution is 64
pixels wide and 128 pixels high. And, the height is 1/2 of the width. So
if you used 8 pixels per character for height (128 / 8 = 16 lines), each
character must have been half as high as it was wide. Your above
characters are the reverse of this. So, did it look more like this?

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX       XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXX                     XXXXXXX       XXXXXXX       XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX       XXXXXXX       XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
               XXXXXXX       XXXXXXX       XXXXXXX       XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX       XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX       XXXXXXX
XXXXXXX

(on my screen, these are twice as wide as they are high)

It occurred to me I could set the monitor on its side, and use the
display as a 128-pixel wide by 64-pixel high display. In this case, your
3x5 character font provides 10 lines of 32 characters per line.
--
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen

Dang, HTML eats the extra spaces. Should've seen that coming.

Oh well, the text was supposed to say "SORT OF..." in 3x5
characters. Yeah, it worked, but it was bug-ugly.

Dave

--- In cosmacelf@y..., "druske" <dave@r...> wrote:
> XXX XXX XXX XXX     XXX XXX
> X   X X X X  X      X X X
> XXX X X XXX  X      X X XXX
>   X X X XX   X      X X X
> XXX XXX X X  X      XXX X   XXX XXX XXX

--- In cosmacelf@y..., Lee Hart <leeahart@e...> wrote:
> Forth Inc's polyFORTH for the 1802 was something like $500.
> We wrote 8TH as a cheaper alternative.

Wow, I wonder how many $500 compilers Forth Inc. sold for the
1802. That must've worked out to something like a nickel per
byte! Wish I could charge that kind of rate for my code...

> Well, I wrote the IDIOT monitor and 8TH for TMSI, and since
> the company is dead, there is no one to object. I also have
> source for Tom Pittman's Tiny BASIC and RCA's BASIC2 (full
> BASIC), but don't know how to find the copyright holders to
> ask if they care. Any ideas?

Wouldn't know where to begin for full BASIC. As for Tiny, I did
a Google search a while back and found what seemed to be a recent
email address for Tom Pittman, but while the email didn't bounce,
I never received a reply. I'll probably give in and just post the
thing if I ever get around to recovering it from cassette
(assuming that I can even get the cassette to read). Can't imagine
he'd care, as it skated the edge of being public domain even back
around 1980.

> Another problem is that my source is on 8" floppies for the old
> 1802 development system, which has gone to the computer
> graveyard. Thus I don't have any way to read these disks.

That sounds like a fairly serious problem. I suppose you could try
posting to the Classic Computer mailing list, there are folks there
with all manner of strange antiques:

http://www.classiccmp.org

> You got 16 lines of 16 characters? Wow. Seems like they would
> be twice as wide as they are high. Was it readable?

XXX XXX XXX XXX     XXX XXX
X   X X X X  X      X X X
XXX X X XXX  X      X X XXX
   X X X XX   X      X X X
XXX XXX X X  X      XXX X   XXX XXX XXX

(Above answer best viewed with a fixed font :)

Dave

Dave Ruske wrote:
> Hi Lee. I remember TMSI. I inquired once about 8th, but as I recall it
> was pretty expensive at the time, particularly with figForth available
> for the price of a cassette.

Yes, I'm afraid everything for computers was more expensive "way back
then". RCA wanted $39 for their Tiny BASIC. I think TMSI's 8TH was $150.
Forth Inc's polyFORTH for the 1802 was something like $500. We wrote 8TH
as a cheaper alternative.

> I'd be happy to host any 1802 software anyone cares to contribute on
> cosmacelf.com, providing that the copyright holder doesn't object.
Well, I wrote the IDIOT monitor and 8TH for TMSI, and since the company
is dead, there is no one to object. I also have source for Tom Pittman's
Tiny BASIC and RCA's BASIC2 (full BASIC), but don't know how to find the
copyright holders to ask if they care. Any ideas?

Another problem is that my source is on 8" floppies for the old 1802
development system, which has gone to the computer graveyard. Thus I
don't have any way to read these disks. I have managed to laboriously
extract the .HEX files for the ROMs themselves, and have a buggy version
of the BASIC2 source on disk. But I do have printed source listings; I
guess they could be scanned if someone had a scanner.

> (Yeah, I know, where's the market for 1802 software... but believe
> it or not, I'm involved in the receiving end of an IP lawsuit that's
> almost as silly, so I tend to err on the side of caution. Never
> underestimate the power of a sleazy lawyer!)

My motto on old software is that it's easier to ask for forgiveness than
for permission :-) Use it until someone asks you to stop.

> I never did see Pittman's DOTS program, but I've heard of it.

I have copies of the magazine article. Yes, it did use variable width
characters; it displays 7 lines of about 18 characters per line. I guess
he incorporated it into his Tiny BASIC in versions for the Quest and
Netronics Elfs, though with lowercase removed. In my own case, I'd like
to get it running on my VIP.

You got 16 lines of 16 characters? Wow. Seems like they would be twice
as wide as they are high. Was it readable?
--
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen

Hi Lee. I remember TMSI. I inquired once about 8th, but as I recall it was
pretty expensive at the time, particularly with figForth available for the
price of a cassette. I think I understand why Linux is such a hit on college
campuses... commercial software cuts into one's beer money!

I'd be happy to host any 1802 software anyone cares to contribute on
cosmacelf.com, providing that the copyright holder doesn't object. (Yeah, I
know, where's the market for 1802 software... but believe it or not, I'm
involved in the receiving end of an IP lawsuit that's almost as silly, so I
tend to err on the side of caution. Never underestimate the power of a sleazy
lawyer!)

I never did see a copy of Pittman's DOTS program, but I've heard of it. Back
in college I was using the 1802 with a TVT based on one of Don Lancaster's
designs, when the video board decided to call it quits. I improvised by
writing my own 1861-based TVT, with 3x5 pixel characters in high res mode for
a 16 character by 16 line display. Try differentiating the letters H, M, N
and W in a 3x5 character... yikes. I believe Pittman's DOTS program used
variable width characters, no doubt providing the inspiration for TrueType
fonts. :)

Dave

On Wednesday 30 January 2002 01:02 pm, you wrote:
> The 1802 ELF was my first computer. It taught me a lot, and I still
> have fond memories of it.
>
> In 1980-87 I designed 1802 microcomputers for Technical Micro Systems
> Inc. in Ann Arbor Michigan. Our 1802 computer was called a BASYS
> board, and had up to 2k of RAM, 4k of ROM, serial, and parallel I/O.
> Software included an IDIOT monitor program (like RCA's UT4), Tiny
> BASIC, and 8TH (a tiny version of FORTH).
>
> I still have a VIP in my robot. It's patterned after Jeff Duntemann's
> "Captain Cosmo's Whizbang" (must reading for 1802 fans :-)
>
> Are there any sources of downloadable 1802 software? I still have
> source for the TMSI products. But I would like to find the BASIC for
> the RCA VIP, and perhaps Tom Pittman's DOTS program for displaying
> text with the 1861 video chip.

The 1802 ELF was my first computer. It taught me a lot, and I still
have fond memories of it.

In 1980-87 I designed 1802 microcomputers for Technical Micro Systems
Inc. in Ann Arbor Michigan. Our 1802 computer was called a BASYS
board, and had up to 2k of RAM, 4k of ROM, serial, and parallel I/O.
Software included an IDIOT monitor program (like RCA's UT4), Tiny
BASIC, and 8TH (a tiny version of FORTH).

I still have a VIP in my robot. It's patterned after Jeff Duntemann's
"Captain Cosmo's Whizbang" (must reading for 1802 fans :-)

Are there any sources of downloadable 1802 software? I still have
source for the TMSI products. But I would like to find the BASIC for
the RCA VIP, and perhaps Tom Pittman's DOTS program for displaying
text with the 1861 video chip.

I've disassembled the tiny OS for an ELF from an old DDJ issue.  It's
only 256 bytes in length, but it provides 5 functions: RUN/DUMP/ENTER
and READ/WRITE to cassette via EF2 and Q outputs.

I've reversed it back to ASM code so I can reuse the tape
functionality.  I also have a copy of the cassette interface
schematic available too.

Since we can't post attachments here, you'll have to personally
contact me if you'd like a copy.

Cheers, Kev

I some people are interested to get a 1802 chip,

they can get it at Rochester Electronics in Massachusetts. They still
have thousands of them and some at reasonably good price, $10 to $20.

Take a look at www.rocelec.com

Ronald

Hi all,

	 I like the new forum.  Much nicer to use.  I just wanted to
venture a comment.  The emulators are fun and allow one to play with
the 1802 programming very easily, but I want to encourage any newcomers
out there to have a go at building a real ELF if they are inclined.
Some may not realize the 1802 chip is still available.  I bought a
couple of new ones from Newark about a year ago and the price was not
bad, about $12. each I think.  They turn up on ebay too.  It really is
not a bad job to wirewrap up an ELF or else point to point wire it with
a fine tip soldering iron.  Everything, including handy sized perf
boards, can be had either from the mail order houses or Radio Shack;
and there are a lot of tutorials and info on wire wrapping and
prototyping on the Net.  I built my first ELF years ago right on the
kitchen table in a small apartment, in just two or three evenings.  If
you can't find the hex displays (they are a bit pricey too), just go
with separate LED's on each of the eight data lines.  You will learn
hexadecimal very quickly this way!  Also, there is a neat chip
available from eLabs now, the EDE707, which converts ordinary cheap 7-
segment displays to hex and is very easy to interface to any
microcontroller.  (http://www.elabinc.com)  They have some other
interesting chips too, including a 4x4 keypad interface.  So, don't be
afraid to tackle building an actual ELF of your own!  It does not take
a lot of previous electronic experience at all.  The original
instructions are perfectly clear and you will learn a lot when you get
into customizing or expanding it.  Good luck and best wishes to all for
2002, Stewart Marshall

> Reading this gave me a thought, is there an Elf
> emulator out there that can handle terminal emulation?

Since I have the source for my emulator, it shouldn't be too
difficult to add Terminal Emulation support.  Mine isn't technically
an ELF emulator, but rather an 1802/1805 assembler/debugger/simulator.

I could easily add ELF support by monitoring the INPUTx/OUTPUTx
instructions and displaying the appropriate info in a dialog.

I'll probably emulate an 1851 at some I/O address.  I'll ignore the
1871 emulation for later.

Cheers, Kev

Reading this gave me a thought, is there an Elf
emulator out there that can handle terminal emulation?
  I only know of two emulators out there.  And of
course the TinyElf is only for the palm where terminal
emulation is not an option.  I know of an Altair
emulation project that has incorporated elements from
other emulators out there and is likewise willing to
share code for other emulators.  As am I rambling on,
I've noticed that I'm suggesting a new emulator, which
even though wasn't the point of this message, it might
not be a bad idea.  I don't know if elements of
TinyElf can be ported, but the foundations of it
coupled with Bill Richman's emulator we could really
come up with something.

The link for the Altair Emulator I mentioned is
http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/Altair32.htm
--- kevashley <kdashley@...> wrote:
> I have an 1802 development environment that I wrote
> ages ago in
> MFC/Visual C++.  It includes an internal Macro
> Assembler, Editor, and
> Debugger.  I originally wrote it to give me a way to
> develop my own
> Forth for the 1802.  Since I didn't have a complete
> working 1802
> system, I opted for the software solution to my
> problem!
>
> Anyway, I'm in the process of cleaning up the code a
> bit, after
> changing it from an SDI to an MDI application.
>
> I recently got a copy of eForth.asm for the x86
> family, and am
> converting that to run under my dev system (hence
> the reason I added
> Macro support).
>
> Currently, the system only provides eight I/O and
> the Flags for
> Input/Output to the system.  If anyone can provide
> me with details of
> the Pixie stuff (I have the 1861 docs), I can add
> that to my emulator.
>
> Likewise, if anyone wants a copy of the source,
> please e-mail me for
> a (current) copy.
>
> Cheers, Kev
>
>


=====
"If the future's looking dark we're the ones who have to shine
If there's no one in control we're the ones who draw the line
Though we live in trying times we're the ones who have to try
Though we know that time has wings we're the ones who have to fly!" -Rush
"Everyday Glory"

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I have an 1802 development environment that I wrote ages ago in
MFC/Visual C++.  It includes an internal Macro Assembler, Editor, and
Debugger.  I originally wrote it to give me a way to develop my own
Forth for the 1802.  Since I didn't have a complete working 1802
system, I opted for the software solution to my problem!

Anyway, I'm in the process of cleaning up the code a bit, after
changing it from an SDI to an MDI application.

I recently got a copy of eForth.asm for the x86 family, and am
converting that to run under my dev system (hence the reason I added
Macro support).

Currently, the system only provides eight I/O and the Flags for
Input/Output to the system.  If anyone can provide me with details of
the Pixie stuff (I have the 1861 docs), I can add that to my emulator.

Likewise, if anyone wants a copy of the source, please e-mail me for
a (current) copy.

Cheers, Kev

I just joined the group.  I posted once in the old message boards and
I am hoping to be more active here.  I actually have never seen a
real ELF in person, but I really enjoy using the emulator.  I have
been using it and a few other old computer emulators to teach me more
about programming and assembly language.

Steve,

(I had some problems e-mailing a message to you. Server problem...
May be you got it but, just to be sure, here it is again. I take the
opportunity to add some questions ;)


My "Tiny" project is going well. I have 4K RAM at 0000-0FFF and
another 4K at 8000-8FFF. None outside these ranges, also none at 9800
but you said it doesn't seem to be needed.

Questions:
Is TinyBASIC entry point at address 8400 ?

Does TinyBASIC use some of SuperMon code or it is a completely
independant?

Do you use a SuperMon command to branch to BASIC?
    If so, does SuperMon do some "housekeeping" before branching to
Tiny like setting stack pointer register, program counter register,
etc. ?


Thanks!
Ronald

My version (for the Quest Super ELF) of Tiny Basic really wants to be
loaded at 8400 though.  The I/O routine I use runs on the Q and EF3 I
modified three LBR instructions in TB to jump to the I/O routine at
8300 (the unused 1/4 K block between the QUEST Super Monitor and TB,
otherwise TB assumes I/O is at 0100 Input, 0103 Output & 0106 Break).

8000 - 82FF Super Monitor
8300 - 83DF TB I/O and Text Lable
83E0 - 83FF Not used
8400 - 8BFF Tiny Basic

TB finds all available ram and assumes it can use all of it.  It
seems that TB also makes use of the original page of CMOS memory on
the Super Elf (this gets moved to 9800 when the 4K memory is added).
There is a whole list of stuff TB stores there in Appendix D of the
manual.

Better find a way to have memory in 9800 to 98FF, it's probably
easier than changing TB.

<<< Late BREAKING News while coping this post from the old forum >>>

I found a note in the delivery sheet that modifies Appendix D to
point to page 00 instead of page 98... I'll have to run TB and poke
around to be sure which is correct.

Later,
Steve

Well, since I posted this info on the old forum, I think I should
post it here as well.

I have a copy of Tom Pittman's Tiny Basic for the 1802.  Originally
it was on 2-1k proms. I've coppied it onto 2k proms, modified the code
to jump to a 300 baud I/O routine (I have the rs232 iption on my
Super Elf) which is also in prom.

I have copies of the code in several electronic formats and can make
copies of the original manuals if needed.  I am willing to share but
there are several customizable subtlties related to formats and I/O
routines that need to be discussed if TB is to run "out of the box".

Currently my Super ELF comes up running Tiny Basic at 300 baud. (I do
use a Pentium Laptop as a dumb terminal to talk to it, still it's
nice be able to program in basic again.)

On the "wants list"...  I have the manual for Quest's editor
assembler... I know I had the tape to go with it, but it seems to
have vanished.  Does anyone have a copy?

Thanks,
and nice forum,

Steve Gemeny
aa3nm@...

This forum seems to be better.

And I'm glad to be the second member...