As a moderator of this Group, I am so thrilled with all of the messages
presentated lately.  Commedia dell'Arte is alive - just as it says on our
heading.
Lively discussion, intelligent posts; discourse!
WhooHoo!
Thanks for your contributions and thanks for staying in touch.
Jim

I am sure Lincoln Center Museum of the Performing Arts has a copy of it on tape
for the archives.  But you must view it there and go through an interview as to
why you want to see it.  They have a copy of almost all of the Broadway and Off
Broadway shows.
Stanley

--- On Sun, 12/13/09, John Perry <jandyperry@...> wrote:

From: John Perry <jandyperry@...>
Subject: Re: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Re: Comedy of Errors
To: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, December 13, 2009, 6:02 PM







 









       does anyone have a video of the Flying Karamazov Brothers' Comedy of
Errors?  It was broadcast in 1987. It is on youtube but I want the entire
performance to show to my theatre classes.



AP



On Dec 13, 2009, at 4:17 PM, Frances Crum wrote:



> most of shakespeare' s plays have an element of Commedia in them - after all
it is a poor playwright that doesn't know a good thing when they see it.  There
were traveling/ touring commedia companies from Italy and France in England when
Shakespeare was writing.

>

> Also on the subject of the age of the lovers - yes there were two sets - an
older and a younger. The average age of marriage might have been between 25 and
30 but men were older than women and the statistic doesn't take into account
first second and third marriages which were fairly common in the 16th century
because of the high mortality rate.  Also the legal age for marriage was 12
until 17th century when it was increased to 13 and it was raised again to 16 in
the 19th century.  It was common for a woman to be bethrothed early in life and
go and live with her future husbands family if they were part of the aristocracy
so that she could be educated to her future life.

> Also around the 16 th century it became law in Italy that a woman's dowry -
the amount paid by her family for her upkeep for the remainder of her life - was
not inherited by the husband in case of her death - it went to her closed male
blood-relative which is why having a son within the first year of marriage
became so important - if something happened to the woman - the son inherrited
and if something happened to the son then it went to the boy's father etc.  This
was to provent the trend in untimely deaths amongst young newly married women
through mistreatement and starvation etc.

> It has also been a time honoured practise amongst the genrty to hire a stand
in if the husband was unable to father a child himself - unfortunately the poor
stand in didn't have much life expectancy after the child was born healthily -
he was chosen for the closeness of his look to that of the husband's. (Wouldn't
happen these days?  I know of a couple of very prominant cases... although the
stand-in was is simply not known...)

>

> Frances

>

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> From: jachorn <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>

> To: commediadellarte@ yahoogroups. com

> Sent: Sun, 13 December, 2009 18:28:45

> Subject: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Re: Comedy of Errors

>

>

> Comeedy of Errors of course is taken from Plautus' Twin Menaechmi with
Shakespeare' s addition of a second set of twins -- there was a very famous
production of it done inthe 80s at the Goodman Theatre in Chicago that Robert
Woodruff directed featuring all kinds of new vaudeville performers, including
Avner the Eccentric and the Karamozov Brothers... Plautus is the seed to
commedia erudita, which in turn seeded the improvised scenarios of the commedia
dell'Arte...

> As to Two Gentlemen of Verona -- yes, that along with Shrew (and to a degree
perhaps Love's Labors Lost) belong to that early period -- i wasn't trying to be
that exhaustive, just pulling examples...

> The GLobe Shakespeare company passed through here (LA) recently with their
very commedia-stylized version of Love's Labors -- it was fun, though some of
the power of the lyrical language was lost (sic)...

> not to mention the the very seminal production of Taming of the Shrew in 1972
at ACT directed by Bill Ball but inspired and conceived by Carlo
Mazzone-Clementi -- available on DVD by the way -- check it out.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ------

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

does anyone have a video of the Flying Karamazov Brothers' Comedy of Errors?  It
was broadcast in 1987. It is on youtube but I want the entire performance to
show to my theatre classes.

AP


On Dec 13, 2009, at 4:17 PM, Frances Crum wrote:

> most of shakespeare's plays have an element of Commedia in them - after all it
is a poor playwright that doesn't know a good thing when they see it.  There
were traveling/ touring commedia companies from Italy and France in England when
Shakespeare was writing.
>
> Also on the subject of the age of the lovers - yes there were two sets - an
older and a younger. The average age of marriage might have been between 25 and
30 but men were older than women and the statistic doesn't take into account
first second and third marriages which were fairly common in the 16th century
because of the high mortality rate.  Also the legal age for marriage was 12
until 17th century when it was increased to 13 and it was raised again to 16 in
the 19th century.  It was common for a woman to be bethrothed early in life and
go and live with her future husbands family if they were part of the aristocracy
so that she could be educated to her future life.
> Also around the 16 th century it became law in Italy that a woman's dowry -
the amount paid by her family for her upkeep for the remainder of her life - was
not inherited by the husband in case of her death - it went to her closed male
blood-relative which is why having a son within the first year of marriage
became so important - if something happened to the woman - the son inherrited
and if something happened to the son then it went to the boy's father etc.  This
was to provent the trend in untimely deaths amongst young newly married women
through mistreatement and starvation etc.
> It has also been a time honoured practise amongst the genrty to hire a stand
in if the husband was unable to father a child himself - unfortunately the poor
stand in didn't have much life expectancy after the child was born healthily -
he was chosen for the closeness of his look to that of the husband's. (Wouldn't
happen these days?  I know of a couple of very prominant cases... although the
stand-in was is simply not known...)
>
> Frances
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: jachorn <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
> To: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, 13 December, 2009 18:28:45
> Subject: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Re: Comedy of Errors
>
>
> Comeedy of Errors of course is taken from Plautus' Twin Menaechmi with
Shakespeare' s addition of a second set of twins -- there was a very famous
production of it done inthe 80s at the Goodman Theatre in Chicago that Robert
Woodruff directed featuring all kinds of new vaudeville performers, including
Avner the Eccentric and the Karamozov Brothers... Plautus is the seed to
commedia erudita, which in turn seeded the improvised scenarios of the commedia
dell'Arte...
> As to Two Gentlemen of Verona -- yes, that along with Shrew (and to a degree
perhaps Love's Labors Lost) belong to that early period -- i wasn't trying to be
that exhaustive, just pulling examples...
> The GLobe Shakespeare company passed through here (LA) recently with their
very commedia-stylized version of Love's Labors -- it was fun, though some of
the power of the lyrical language was lost (sic)...
> not to mention the the very seminal production of Taming of the Shrew in 1972
at ACT directed by Bill Ball but inspired and conceived by Carlo
Mazzone-Clementi -- available on DVD by the way -- check it out.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

most of shakespeare's plays have an element of Commedia in them - after all it
is a poor playwright that doesn't know a good thing when they see it.  There
were traveling/ touring commedia companies from Italy and France in England when
Shakespeare was writing.

Also on the subject of the age of the lovers - yes there were two sets - an
older and a younger. The average age of marriage might have been between 25 and
30 but men were older than women and the statistic doesn't take into account
first second and third marriages which were fairly common in the 16th century
because of the high mortality rate.  Also the legal age for marriage was 12
until 17th century when it was increased to 13 and it was raised again to 16 in
the 19th century.  It was common for a woman to be bethrothed early in life and
go and live with her future husbands family if they were part of the aristocracy
so that she could be educated to her future life. 
Also around the 16 th century it became law in Italy that a woman's dowry - the
amount paid by her family for her upkeep for the remainder of her life - was not
inherited by the husband in case of her death - it went to her closed male
blood-relative which is why having a son within the first year of marriage
became so important - if something happened to the woman - the son inherrited
and if something happened to the son then it went to the boy's father etc. 
This was to provent the trend in untimely deaths amongst young newly married
women through mistreatement and starvation etc. 
It has also been a time honoured practise amongst the genrty to hire a stand in
if the husband was unable to father a child himself - unfortunately the poor
stand in didn't have much life expectancy after the child was born healthily -
he was chosen for the closeness of his look to that of the husband's. (Wouldn't
happen these days?  I know of a couple of very prominant cases... although the
stand-in was is simply not known...)

Frances



________________________________
From: jachorn <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
To: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 13 December, 2009 18:28:45
Subject: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Re: Comedy of Errors

 
Comeedy of Errors of course is taken from Plautus' Twin Menaechmi with
Shakespeare' s addition of a second set of twins -- there was a very famous
production of it done inthe 80s at the Goodman Theatre in Chicago that Robert
Woodruff directed featuring all kinds of new vaudeville performers, including
Avner the Eccentric and the Karamozov Brothers... Plautus is the seed to
commedia erudita, which in turn seeded the improvised scenarios of the commedia
dell'Arte...
As to Two Gentlemen of Verona -- yes, that along with Shrew (and to a degree
perhaps Love's Labors Lost) belong to that early period -- i wasn't trying to be
that exhaustive, just pulling examples...
The GLobe Shakespeare company passed through here (LA) recently with their very
commedia-stylized version of Love's Labors -- it was fun, though some of the
power of the lyrical language was lost (sic)...
not to mention the the very seminal production of Taming of the Shrew in 1972 at
ACT directed by Bill Ball but inspired and conceived by Carlo Mazzone-Clementi
-- available on DVD by the way -- check it out.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Comeedy of Errors of course is taken from Plautus' Twin Menaechmi with
Shakespeare's addition of a second set of twins -- there was a very famous
production of it done inthe 80s at the Goodman Theatre in Chicago that Robert
Woodruff directed featuring all kinds of new vaudeville performers, including
Avner the Eccentric and the Karamozov Brothers... Plautus is the seed to
commedia erudita, which in turn seeded the improvised scenarios of the commedia
dell'Arte...
As to Two Gentlemen of Verona -- yes, that along with Shrew (and to a degree
perhaps Love's Labors Lost) belong to that early period -- i wasn't trying to be
that exhaustive, just pulling examples...
The GLobe Shakespeare company passed through here (LA) recently with their very
commedia-stylized version of Love's Labors -- it was fun, though some of the
power of the lyrical language was lost (sic)...
not to mention the the very seminal production of Taming of the Shrew in 1972 at
ACT directed by Bill Ball but inspired and conceived by Carlo Mazzone-Clementi
-- available on DVD by the way -- check it out.

<<And
Antipholus of Ephesus and Antipholus of Syracuse
Dromio of Ephesus and Dromio of Syracuse
from Shakespeare'
s Comedy of Errors seem based upon Pantelone and Arrlechino
Would love to direct this play in the full commedia genre>>

About ten years ago, I saw Cleveland's Signstage Theatre Company's
production of Comedy of Errors done in full commedia style.  Signstage
utilizes hearing and non-hearing actors.  They incorporate sign language
into every production along with the text.  In this particular
production, the commedia style worked brilliantly with the sign
language, informing the gestures so that even those of us in the
audience who didn't know sign language felt that we were getting it.

And
Antipholus of Ephesus and Antipholus of Syracuse
Dromio of Ephesus and Dromio of Syracuse
from Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors seem based upon Pantelone and Arrlechino
Would love to direct this play in the full commedia genre
 
Found a great article here by the way
http://www.theatredatabase.com/16th_century/commedia_dell_arte_001.html






Kerry Mason

 
 

--- On Sat, 12/12/09, jachorn <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


From: jachorn <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Commedia Dell'Arte] My two cents...
To: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, December 12, 2009, 7:37 PM


 



I like this discussion of modern equivalents of the commedia archetypes, though
I do agree with Jim that time has melded them into different variations and
trying to codify them too strongly would miss the point of commedia's continuing
contribution to Western comedy...
That said, a couple of points:
SCARAMOUCHE / SCARAMUCCIA -- "little fly" (mosquito); dressed all in black, a
combination of the first zanni (Brighella) and the Capitano developed by the
French and the Parisian Italians in the 17th Century; one actor for two roles!
Pasquariello is a variation on him. A modern equivalent in my mind is Bob Hope -
part con, part bravado, would-be lover, coward.
ROMEO & JULIET -- I teach Shakespeare in Santa monica and for decades now have
recognized the formidable influence of the commedia dell'Arte on the
Elizabethan/ Jacobean theatre; I have come to conjecture that after Shakespeare
mastered the forms of theatre (comedy [Comedy of Errors, Shrew], tragedy a la
Seneca [Titus Andronicus] and history[Henry VI]) he started playing with the
form of genres... I always get this gut feeling that Shakespeare sat down,
considered the traditional erudita form of Italian comedy, looking specifically
at the arc: boy meets girl, boy and girl are separated,they solicit help from
the servants, near misses and confusion as the servants work it out - harmony
and resolution at the end (leading to the big feast after) --- I'm so tempted to
think that Shakes might have thought: "what if the near misses backfire and all
goes wrong? You would have a romantic tragedy!"
INAMMORATI -- In the bigger companies there were often two sets of lovers - an
older and a younger; the older could play out the jealousy lazzi, the younger
could be more innocently foolish and anxious. I've set my lovers between 15-24
for the women and 17-25 for the men; I think 30 is too old -- the power of the
lovers is their vitality and the "Springtime" of renewal they represent in the
scenarios.
The politics of commedia lies in its pulling the audience's sympathies towards
the lovers against the social norm of arranged marraige. Kinda middle class as
it was just blossoming.
Oh, well, I see I've done it once again
run on and on...
forgive this old soldier...
for what it's worth











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mr. Jackhorn,

Your genre theory seems quite valid. I don't know what dates the plays
were written, but it seems the "Two Gentlemen..." is the roman genre.
And we once did an experiment with "As You Like It." Playing all the
characters in masks and the play worked a lot better (funnier) with the
push toward Commedia...

Just 2 extra cents,
Jeff

jachorn wrote:
> I like this discussion of modern equivalents of the commedia archetypes,
though I do agree with Jim that time has melded them into different variations
and trying to codify them too strongly would miss the point of commedia's
continuing contribution to Western comedy...
> That said, a couple of points:
> SCARAMOUCHE / SCARAMUCCIA -- "little fly" (mosquito); dressed all in black, a
combination of the first zanni (Brighella) and the Capitano developed by the
French and the Parisian Italians in the 17th Century; one actor for two roles! 
Pasquariello is a variation on him.  A modern equivalent in my mind is Bob Hope
- part con, part bravado, would-be lover, coward.
> ROMEO & JULIET -- I teach Shakespeare in Santa monica and for decades now have
recognized the formidable influence of the commedia dell'Arte on the
Elizabethan/Jacobean theatre; I have come to conjecture that after Shakespeare
mastered the forms of theatre (comedy [Comedy of Errors, Shrew], tragedy a la
Seneca [Titus Andronicus] and history[Henry VI]) he started playing with the
form of genres... I always get this gut feeling that Shakespeare sat down,
considered the traditional erudita form of Italian comedy, looking specifically
at the arc: boy meets girl, boy and girl are separated,they solicit help from
the servants, near misses and confusion as the servants work it out - harmony
and resolution at the end (leading to the big feast after) --- I'm so tempted to
think that Shakes might have thought: "what if the near misses backfire and all
goes wrong?  You would have a romantic tragedy!"
> INAMMORATI -- In the bigger companies there were often two sets of lovers - an
older and a younger; the older could play out the jealousy lazzi, the younger
could be more innocently foolish and anxious.  I've set my lovers between 15-24
for the women and 17-25 for the men;  I think 30 is too old -- the power of the
lovers is their vitality and the "Springtime" of renewal they represent in the
scenarios.
> The politics of commedia lies in its pulling the audience's sympathies towards
the lovers against the social norm of arranged marraige.  Kinda middle class as
it was just blossoming.
> Oh, well, I see I've done it once again
> run on and on...
> forgive this old soldier...
> for what it's worth
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.716 / Virus Database: 270.14.104/2560 - Release Date: 12/12/09
01:38:00
>
>

I like this discussion of modern equivalents of the commedia archetypes, though
I do agree with Jim that time has melded them into different variations and
trying to codify them too strongly would miss the point of commedia's continuing
contribution to Western comedy...
That said, a couple of points:
SCARAMOUCHE / SCARAMUCCIA -- "little fly" (mosquito); dressed all in black, a
combination of the first zanni (Brighella) and the Capitano developed by the
French and the Parisian Italians in the 17th Century; one actor for two roles! 
Pasquariello is a variation on him.  A modern equivalent in my mind is Bob Hope
- part con, part bravado, would-be lover, coward.
ROMEO & JULIET -- I teach Shakespeare in Santa monica and for decades now have
recognized the formidable influence of the commedia dell'Arte on the
Elizabethan/Jacobean theatre; I have come to conjecture that after Shakespeare
mastered the forms of theatre (comedy [Comedy of Errors, Shrew], tragedy a la
Seneca [Titus Andronicus] and history[Henry VI]) he started playing with the
form of genres... I always get this gut feeling that Shakespeare sat down,
considered the traditional erudita form of Italian comedy, looking specifically
at the arc: boy meets girl, boy and girl are separated,they solicit help from
the servants, near misses and confusion as the servants work it out - harmony
and resolution at the end (leading to the big feast after) --- I'm so tempted to
think that Shakes might have thought: "what if the near misses backfire and all
goes wrong?  You would have a romantic tragedy!"
INAMMORATI -- In the bigger companies there were often two sets of lovers - an
older and a younger; the older could play out the jealousy lazzi, the younger
could be more innocently foolish and anxious.  I've set my lovers between 15-24
for the women and 17-25 for the men;  I think 30 is too old -- the power of the
lovers is their vitality and the "Springtime" of renewal they represent in the
scenarios.
The politics of commedia lies in its pulling the audience's sympathies towards
the lovers against the social norm of arranged marraige.  Kinda middle class as
it was just blossoming.
Oh, well, I see I've done it once again
run on and on...
forgive this old soldier...
for what it's worth

Dear Commedia Dell'Artians!
I just finished teaching Commedia and Red Nose Clown to a group of 40 undergrads
at University of Pittsburgh.
The Pittsburgh Post Gazette has a 5 minute video featuring our final performance
of Commedia and Clown on their website.
Love to hear what you think!
Gale McNeeley
here's the link    http://www.post-gazette.com/multimedia/?videoid=102670







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The man might have been but the woman would have been younger- probably between
16 and 21 virginal and chaste.  By 24 she would have been considered too old
to be a good match and considered to be an old spinster.  For good girls
(Isabella) marriage first then sex without the face-sucking first too on the
other hand Columbina is 'knowing' and a lot less innocent. 




________________________________
From: zanni4 <zanni4@...>
To: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 11 December, 2009 20:47:16
Subject: Re: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Added to master list

 
--- In commediadellarte@ yahoogroups. com, Frances Crum <fncrum@...> wrote:
By the age of 25 and 30 they would have been expected to have settled down,
married and been more sophistocated. ..
This is my point exactly - we, the audience, know at first sight that the lovers
belong together. They are ready to settle down and be married. In the end they
overcome all obstacles and get married - hence, a comedy. In the meantime they
can be mad as hell at each other over perceived infidelities or grief stricken
at inaccurate terrible news. They are accomplished, educated and charming; we,
audience need to see that first, then they get goo-goo eyed and we are happy for
them, then all hell breaks loose happily ending in the marriage and we, the
audience also know it is a good, lasting marriage.

There is a myth that everyone in the middle ages and renaissance married young,
this tended to occur more among the economic extremes, the very poor and very
rich. In the middle, marriage was often at 20 to 25, especially as more wealth
was involed more care was taken for the match. Because marriage was viewed as
uniting families, much more was at stake than the happiness of the couple. As
the Innamorati are upper middle class at age 25 and 30, they are more than ready
to be married, that is why we see them as a good match.
My take, anyway.
Jim







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com, Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...> wrote:
> I'll look for A Fish Called Wanda, but I'm cartooned out with my daughter.
No worries - it is live action.
Jim

--- In commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com, Frances Crum <fncrum@...> wrote:
  By the age of 25 and 30 they would have been expected to have settled down,
married and been more sophistocated...
This is my point exactly - we, the audience, know at first sight that the lovers
belong together.  They are ready to settle down and be married.  In the end they
overcome all obstacles and get married - hence, a comedy.  In the meantime they
can be mad as hell at each other over perceived infidelities or grief stricken
at inaccurate terrible news.  They are accomplished, educated and charming; we,
audience need to see that first, then they get goo-goo eyed and we are happy for
them, then all hell breaks loose happily ending in the marriage and we, the
audience also know it is a good, lasting marriage.

There is a myth that everyone in the middle ages and renaissance married young,
this tended to occur more among the economic extremes, the very poor and very
rich.  In the middle, marriage was often at 20 to 25, especially as more wealth
was involed more care was taken for the match.  Because marriage was viewed as
uniting families, much more was at stake than the happiness of the couple.  As
the Innamorati are upper middle class at age 25 and 30, they are more than ready
to be married, that is why we see them as a good match.
My take, anyway.
Jim

My research into the immorati have them as derived from the court plays based on
Platus' Menaechmi - they are young and attractive always in the latest
fashion.  Movement style - think ballarina tetteringly running from one side of
the dtage to the other to see her beloved.  Their language is full of long
courtly words - they read long extracts of poems and recite them by heart, they
are full of long amourous sentences as opposed to course sexual ones (although
they do contain double meanings) .  They relate to theselves but the person
they are in love with is the last person they speak with and display high levels
of nervousness when attempting to speak with each other. Touchingis a really big
thing but they don't grope or swallow face ever.  This is their youthfullness
not their maturity showing.  By the age of 25 and 30 they would have been
expected to have settled down, married and been more sophistocated than this. 
this is typical hormonial
  teenage stuff - the prelude to marriage and official courtship at a time of
arranged marriages but with doting fathers who ultimately give way to their
children especially when they gain a suitable match for themselves.

frances


 



________________________________
From: Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...>
To: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 11 December, 2009 6:18:20
Subject: Re: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Added to master list

 
Thank you, Jim. your points are well taken. I hope there won't be too much
universal agreement. The debating and discussing will help us understand the
subject better. It also may be that the way we see the archetypes of commedia
and the modern examples could be partially subjective.

When I teach the innamorati (this January,in fact) I would suggest Romeo and
Juliet not in their entirety, but the first part of the play. They coo and
declare their love in grandiose terms. That portion we could use as an example.

I'll look for A Fish Called Wanda, but I'm cartooned out with my daughter.

And with your permission I'll add the caveat at the beginning of the list.

Thanks!

Scot

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Romeo is actually an older archetype - he is the Ideal lover (see embryonic
Casanova) - lives for the danger of the conquest - changing himself into
whatever the women wants/ needs.  The evidence is in the text itself - the
priest warning him that it wouldn't last (obviously knows what Romeo is like);
his quest for Juliettes love involves personal risk; his love for Rosalind (who
gives the classic line of she's joining a convent) - a Capulet and therefore not
acceptable.

there is nothing in the rule book that says people can't borrow from commedia
and turn comedy into drama.  Like the Greeks, Shakespeare focused on
development of the anit-hero (opponent/ bad guy) as the hero was always two
dimensional and boring.  Romeo and Juliette along with a lot of other
Shakespearean plays liberally borrowed elements of Commedia to make his plays
more interesting and then changing them to make them unique.  Romeo and Julliet
is one of the best known of comedy- drama genre.


Frances




________________________________
From: zanni4 <zanni4@...>
To: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 11 December, 2009 6:04:41
Subject: Re: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Added to master list

 
Scott,
You have introduced a fun and interesting exercise, but do not expect universal
agreement. One can steer newcomers to currently interpretations of traditional
roles but the lines are blurred by time and interpretations of multiple artists
over hundreds of years. I feel we must seek what is archetypical in any
interpretation. In addition any opinion is open to debate with supporting
arguments. Some would argue that any variation drifts too far from the archetype
as to render it invalid. I see Commedia archetypes in everyday life and multiple
art forms.
Check out "A Fish Called Wanda" with John Cleese, Kevin Kline, Michael Palin &
what's-her-name.
John Cleese plays a combo Inamorato/Il Dottore; crazy, but to me it works.
To me Bart Simpson is Brighella rather than Arlecchino. He is a bad boy who is
always plotting something - classic. I think the Simpsons have a lot of Commedia
elements, by the way. There has been prior discussion on them. I submit Homer as
Arlecchino - lazy, drunk, subservient, comic relief and married to Columbina.
Marge (Columbina) smart,A blinded by love of Arlecchino, hard-working and
underappreciated.
Do not forget to examine SpongeBob Squarepants in Commedia context - the
elementary kids get the archetypes immediately.
A final point - Romeo & Juliette are only pseudo archetypes (as in false) for
the lovers because the are too young to be stable. They die at the end which
just wrecks the comedy. The lovers must be mature, stable and able to reproduce
in the audiences' eye. This is the basis of the happy (optimistic, comedic)
ending. Leandro must be 30, Isabella 25 (yes, girls mature earlier). Look at
successful marriages today; we even have scientific studies showing the age of
the bride is key to a successful marriage.
So, Scott,
I would attach this caveat to your list: Commedia, like life, is a work in
progress.
Jim
--- In commediadellarte@ yahoogroups. com, Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@ ...>
wrote:
>
> Good points. Thanks. I'll see about splitting the Capitano list int oat least
3 example lists.
>
>
Italian                  Ã\
‚ Â Â Â Â 
Spanish                  Ã\
‚ Â Â Â 
>
Fabio                  ÂÂ\
 Ã‚ Â Â Â Â  Dick Solomon
> Derek Zoolander
>
> Like this?
>
> Scot
>
> --- On Thu, 12/10/09, Frances Crum <fncrum@...> wrote:
>
> From: Frances Crum <fncrum@...>
> Subject: Re: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Added to master list
> To: commediadellarte@ yahoogroups. com
> Date: Thursday, December 10, 2009, 3:24 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Not too sure about some of the examples but something that might help you a
bit is that there are broadly different types of Il Capitano -most fit into the
Spanish (grandee) and the Italian types.
>
>
>
> In reality there are several including Scaramouche who is the swashbuckler.
Always the outsider he may be Italian, spanish or calabrase has a long phallic
nose, long pointed felt hat and rapier, scarlet doublet (satirically military) ,
simultaneously obsessed with women but terrified of them (supposedly single but
no one really knows) , boasstful and cowardly and impovrished and often resorts
to theft.
>
>
>
> The title may be self given to give him status in a foreign part of the
country. He may be a solider of fortune turned swindler. According to Rudlin,
Riccoboni identified two distinct types - the Italian who was a tall prideful
figure who posed with long sword hilt (probably a male model type) and the
Spanish who was blaze and ready to fight - full of attitude and under used
ability.
>
>
>
> Potentially a serious figure in other circumstances it is his bombasity, fake
superiority and the exposure of his fraudulant identity that is the comedic -
Initially he may be the subject of mistaken identity but instead of admiting to
it goes along with it and spends the rest of the time trying to catch on to what
he should know.
>
>
>
> Frances
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
>
> From: Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@ yahoo.com>
>
> To: commediadellarte@ yahoogroups. com
>
> Sent: Thu, 10 December, 2009 16:42:59
>
> Subject: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Added to master list
>
>
>
>
>
> Continuing my research; I've added the following names to the master list.
>
>
>
> I would still love to have feedback on the strengths/weaknesse s of theser
examples. Many of these shows I'm unfamiliar with.
>
>
>
> Perhaps we could have a number in front of the names
>
> 1= very strong example
>
> 2= strong example
>
> 3= acceptable example
>
>
>
> or even notation, for example... "Miles Gloriosus is an excellent example of
boasting that Capitano makes, but where Miles Gloriosus is truly brave and an
excellent soldeir, Capitano is the opposite."
>
>
>
> Brighella
>
> Rooster Annie
>
>
>
> Capitano
>
> Ronnie Barnhardt Observe and Report
>
> Paul Blart Paul Blart: Mall Cop
>
> Joxer Xena: Warrior Princess
>
> Mr. Furious Mystery Men
>
> The Wizard The Wizard of Oz
>
>
>
> Innamorati
>
> Hero and Philia A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum
>
> Romeo and Juliet Romeo and Juliet
>
> Tony and Maria West Side Story
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That was the interesting thing about the Captain - he was a zanni who elevated
himself to being a captain - and the unmasking is him being showen to be a
Zanni.

Frances




________________________________
From: zanni4 <zanni4@...>
To: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 11 December, 2009 5:21:27
Subject: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Re: Scaramouche

 
Very nice thumbnail of Scaramouche.
I would also add that he is actually a zanni, not empowered as Capitano is. He
is also impoverished and frequently worked for his impoverished Innamorato
master.
In the role of the first zani, his plots to earn money for his master will drive
the plot.
Jim

--- In commediadellarte@ yahoogroups. com, Frances Crum <fncrum@...> wrote:
>
> Not too sure about some of the examples but something that might help you a
bit is that there are broadly different types of Il Capitano  -most fit into
 the Spanish (grandee) and the Italian types. 
>
> In reality there are several including Scaramouche who is the
swashbuckler.  Always the outsider he may be Italian, spanish or calabrase
has a long phallic nose, long pointed felt hat and rapier, scarlet doublet
(satirically military) , simultaneously obsessed with women but terrified of
them (supposedly single but no one really knows) , boasstful and cowardly and
impovrished and often resorts to theft. 
>
> The title may be self given to give him status in a foreign part of the
country.  He may be a solider of fortune turned swindler.  According to
Rudlin, Riccoboni identified two distinct types - the Italian who was a tall
prideful figure who posed with long sword hilt (probably a male model type) and
the Spanish who was blaze and ready to fight - full of attitude and under used
ability. 
>
> Potentially a serious figure in other circumstances it is his bombasity, fake
superiority and the exposure of his fraudulant identity that is the
comedic  -  Initially he may be the subject of mistaken identity but
instead of admiting to it goes along with it and spends the rest of the time
trying to catch on to what he should know.
>
> Frances
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@ ...>
> To: commediadellarte@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Thu, 10 December, 2009 16:42:59
> Subject: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Added to master list
>
>  
> Continuing my research; I've added the following names to the master list.
>  
> I would still love to have feedback on the strengths/weaknesse s of theser
examples. Many of these shows I'm unfamiliar with.
>  
> Perhaps we could have a number in front of the names
> 1= very strong example
> 2= strong example
> 3= acceptable example
>  
> or even notation, for example... "Miles Gloriosus is an excellent example
of boasting that Capitano makes, but where Miles Gloriosus is truly brave and an
excellent soldeir, Capitano is the opposite."
>
> Brighella
> Rooster           
                    \
                Annie
>  
> Capitano
> Ronnie Barnhardt        
           
            Observe and Report
> Paul Blart        
                    \
                Paul Blart: Mall
Cop 
> Joxer               
                    \
                Xena: Warrior Princess
> Mr. Furious     
                    \
                Mystery Men
> The Wizard     
                    \
                The Wizard of Oz
>  
> Innamorati
> Hero and
Philia                  Â\
 Â Â Â Â Â Â A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum
> Romeo and
Juliet                  Â\
 Â Â Â Romeo and Juliet
> Tony and
Maria                  ÂÂ\
 Ã‚ Â Â Â West Side Story
>  
>  
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thank you, Jim. your points are well taken. I hope there won't be too much
universal agreement. The debating and discussing will help us understand the
subject better. It also may be that the way we see the archetypes of commedia
and the modern examples could be partially subjective.

When I teach the innamorati (this January,in fact) I would suggest Romeo and
Juliet not in their entirety, but the first part of the play. They coo and
declare their love in grandiose terms. That portion we could use as an example.

I'll look for A Fish Called Wanda, but I'm cartooned out with my daughter.

And with your permission I'll add the caveat at the beginning of the list.

Thanks!

Scot





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Scott,
You have introduced a fun and interesting exercise, but do not expect universal
agreement.  One can steer newcomers to currently interpretations of traditional
roles but the lines are blurred by time and interpretations of multiple artists
over hundreds of years.  I feel we must seek what is archetypical in any
interpretation.  In addition any opinion is open to debate with supporting
arguments.  Some would argue that any variation drifts too far from the
archetype as to render it invalid.  I see Commedia archetypes in everyday life
and multiple art forms.
Check out "A Fish Called Wanda" with John Cleese, Kevin Kline, Michael Palin &
what's-her-name.
John Cleese plays a combo Inamorato/Il Dottore; crazy, but to me it works.
To me Bart Simpson is Brighella rather than Arlecchino.  He is a bad boy who is
always plotting something - classic.  I think the Simpsons have a lot of
Commedia elements, by the way.  There has been prior discussion on them.  I
submit Homer as Arlecchino - lazy, drunk, subservient, comic relief and married
to Columbina.  Marge (Columbina) smart,A blinded by love of Arlecchino,
hard-working and underappreciated.
Do not forget to examine SpongeBob Squarepants in Commedia context - the
elementary kids get the archetypes immediately.
A final point - Romeo & Juliette are only pseudo archetypes (as in false) for
the lovers because the are too young to be stable.  They die at the end which
just wrecks the comedy.  The lovers must be mature, stable and able to reproduce
in the audiences' eye.  This is the basis of the happy (optimistic, comedic)
ending.  Leandro must be 30, Isabella 25 (yes, girls mature earlier).  Look at
successful marriages today; we even have scientific studies showing the age of
the bride is key to a successful marriage.
So, Scott,
I would attach this caveat to your list: Commedia, like life, is a work in
progress.
Jim
--- In commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com, Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...> wrote:
>
> Good points. Thanks. I'll see about splitting the Capitano list int oat least
3 example lists.
>
> Italian                       
Spanish                      
> Fabio                         Dick Solomon
> Derek Zoolander
>
> Like this?
>
> Scot
>
> --- On Thu, 12/10/09, Frances Crum <fncrum@...> wrote:
>
> From: Frances Crum <fncrum@...>
> Subject: Re: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Added to master list
> To: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, December 10, 2009, 3:24 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       Not too sure about some of the examples but something that might help
you a bit is that there are broadly different types of Il Capitano  -most fit
into  the Spanish (grandee) and the Italian types.
>
>
>
> In reality there are several including Scaramouche who is the swashbuckler. 
Always the outsider he may be Italian, spanish or calabrase has a long phallic
nose, long pointed felt hat and rapier, scarlet doublet (satirically military) ,
simultaneously obsessed with women but terrified of them (supposedly single but
no one really knows) , boasstful and cowardly and impovrished and often resorts
to theft.
>
>
>
> The title may be self given to give him status in a foreign part of the
country.  He may be a solider of fortune turned swindler.  According to Rudlin,
Riccoboni identified two distinct types - the Italian who was a tall prideful
figure who posed with long sword hilt (probably a male model type) and the
Spanish who was blaze and ready to fight - full of attitude and under used
ability.
>
>
>
> Potentially a serious figure in other circumstances it is his bombasity, fake
superiority and the exposure of his fraudulant identity that is the comedic  - 
Initially he may be the subject of mistaken identity but instead of admiting to
it goes along with it and spends the rest of the time trying to catch on to what
he should know.
>
>
>
> Frances
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
>
> From: Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@ yahoo.com>
>
> To: commediadellarte@ yahoogroups. com
>
> Sent: Thu, 10 December, 2009 16:42:59
>
> Subject: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Added to master list
>
>
>
>
>
> Continuing my research; I've added the following names to the master list.
>
>
>
> I would still love to have feedback on the strengths/weaknesse s of theser
examples. Many of these shows I'm unfamiliar with.
>
>
>
> Perhaps we could have a number in front of the names
>
> 1= very strong example
>
> 2= strong example
>
> 3= acceptable example
>
>
>
> or even notation, for example... "Miles Gloriosus is an excellent example of
boasting that Capitano makes, but where Miles Gloriosus is truly brave and an
excellent soldeir, Capitano is the opposite."
>
>
>
> Brighella
>
> Rooster                                                Annie
>
>
>
> Capitano
>
> Ronnie Barnhardt                                 Observe and Report
>
> Paul Blart                                             Paul Blart: Mall Cop
>
> Joxer                                                    Xena: Warrior
Princess
>
> Mr. Furious                                          Mystery Men
>
> The Wizard                                          The Wizard of Oz
>
>
>
> Innamorati
>
> Hero and Philia                         A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to
the Forum
>
> Romeo and Juliet                      Romeo and Juliet
>
> Tony and Maria                       West Side Story
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Very nice thumbnail of Scaramouche.
I would also add that he is actually a zanni, not empowered as Capitano is.  He
is also impoverished and frequently worked for his impoverished Innamorato
master.
In the role of the first zani, his plots to earn money for his master will drive
the plot.
Jim

--- In commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com, Frances Crum <fncrum@...> wrote:
>
> Not too sure about some of the examples but something that might help you a
bit is that there are broadly different types of Il Capitano  -most fit into
 the Spanish (grandee) and the Italian types. 
>
> In reality there are several including Scaramouche who is the swashbuckler. 
Always the outsider he may be Italian, spanish or calabrase has a long phallic
nose, long pointed felt hat and rapier, scarlet doublet (satirically military) ,
simultaneously obsessed with women but terrified of them (supposedly single but
no one really knows) , boasstful and cowardly and impovrished and often resorts
to theft. 
>
> The title may be self given to give him status in a foreign part of the
country.  He may be a solider of fortune turned swindler.  According to
Rudlin, Riccoboni identified two distinct types - the Italian who was a tall
prideful figure who posed with long sword hilt (probably a male model type) and
the Spanish who was blaze and ready to fight - full of attitude and under used
ability. 
>
> Potentially a serious figure in other circumstances it is his bombasity, fake
superiority and the exposure of his fraudulant identity that is the comedic  -
 Initially he may be the subject of mistaken identity but instead of admiting
to it goes along with it and spends the rest of the time trying to catch on to
what he should know.
>
> Frances
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...>
> To: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, 10 December, 2009 16:42:59
> Subject: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Added to master list
>
>  
> Continuing my research; I've added the following names to the master list.
>  
> I would still love to have feedback on the strengths/weaknesse s of theser
examples. Many of these shows I'm unfamiliar with.
>  
> Perhaps we could have a number in front of the names
> 1= very strong example
> 2= strong example
> 3= acceptable example
>  
> or even notation, for example... "Miles Gloriosus is an excellent example of
boasting that Capitano makes, but where Miles Gloriosus is truly brave and an
excellent soldeir, Capitano is the opposite."
>
> Brighella
> Rooster                                   
            Annie
>  
> Capitano
> Ronnie Barnhardt                                
Observe and Report
> Paul Blart                                
            Paul Blart: Mall Cop 
> Joxer               
                                    Xena:
Warrior Princess
> Mr. Furious                             
            Mystery Men
> The Wizard                             
            The Wizard of Oz
>  
> Innamorati
> Hero and Philia                         A Funny Thing
Happened on the Way to the Forum
> Romeo and Juliet                      Romeo and Juliet
> Tony and Maria                       West Side Story
>  
>  
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

On the subject of Romeo and juliette the fathers are based loosely on Il Dottore
and Pantalone's rivalry  (perhaps montague is Il Dottore and Capulet is
pantalone in the guise of Il magnifico).


Check out Psyche (US TV series) for some of the best commedia skills and
characterisations yet although in different episodes different character's
traits emerge.


Frances




________________________________
From: Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...>
To: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 10 December, 2009 21:34:46
Subject: Re: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Added to master list

 
Good points. Thanks. I'll see about splitting the Capitano list int oat least 3
example lists.

Italian                       
Spanish                      
Fabio                         Dick Solomon
Derek Zoolander

Like this?

Scot

--- On Thu, 12/10/09, Frances Crum <fncrum@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Frances Crum <fncrum@yahoo. com>
Subject: Re: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Added to master list
To: commediadellarte@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Thursday, December 10, 2009, 3:24 PM

 

Not too sure about some of the examples but something that might help you a bit
is that there are broadly different types of Il Capitano -most fit into the
Spanish (grandee) and the Italian types.

In reality there are several including Scaramouche who is the swashbuckler.
Always the outsider he may be Italian, spanish or calabrase has a long phallic
nose, long pointed felt hat and rapier, scarlet doublet (satirically military) ,
simultaneously obsessed with women but terrified of them (supposedly single but
no one really knows) , boasstful and cowardly and impovrished and often resorts
to theft.

The title may be self given to give him status in a foreign part of the country.
He may be a solider of fortune turned swindler. According to Rudlin, Riccoboni
identified two distinct types - the Italian who was a tall prideful figure who
posed with long sword hilt (probably a male model type) and the Spanish who was
blaze and ready to fight - full of attitude and under used ability.

Potentially a serious figure in other circumstances it is his bombasity, fake
superiority and the exposure of his fraudulant identity that is the comedic -
Initially he may be the subject of mistaken identity but instead of admiting to
it goes along with it and spends the rest of the time trying to catch on to what
he should know.

Frances

____________ _________ _________ __

From: Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@ yahoo.com>

To: commediadellarte@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Thu, 10 December, 2009 16:42:59

Subject: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Added to master list

Continuing my research; I've added the following names to the master list.

I would still love to have feedback on the strengths/weaknesse s of theser
examples. Many of these shows I'm unfamiliar with.

Perhaps we could have a number in front of the names

1= very strong example

2= strong example

3= acceptable example

or even notation, for example... "Miles Gloriosus is an excellent example of
boasting that Capitano makes, but where Miles Gloriosus is truly brave and an
excellent soldeir, Capitano is the opposite."

Brighella

Rooster Annie

Capitano

Ronnie Barnhardt Observe and Report

Paul Blart Paul Blart: Mall Cop

Joxer Xena: Warrior Princess

Mr. Furious Mystery Men

The Wizard The Wizard of Oz

Innamorati

Hero and Philia A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum

Romeo and Juliet Romeo and Juliet

Tony and Maria West Side Story

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Good points. Thanks. I'll see about splitting the Capitano list int oat least 3
example lists.

Italian                       
Spanish                      
Fabio                         Dick Solomon
Derek Zoolander

Like this?

Scot

--- On Thu, 12/10/09, Frances Crum <fncrum@...> wrote:

From: Frances Crum <fncrum@...>
Subject: Re: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Added to master list
To: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, December 10, 2009, 3:24 PM







 









       Not too sure about some of the examples but something that might help you
a bit is that there are broadly different types of Il Capitano  -most fit into 
the Spanish (grandee) and the Italian types.



In reality there are several including Scaramouche who is the swashbuckler. 
Always the outsider he may be Italian, spanish or calabrase has a long phallic
nose, long pointed felt hat and rapier, scarlet doublet (satirically military) ,
simultaneously obsessed with women but terrified of them (supposedly single but
no one really knows) , boasstful and cowardly and impovrished and often resorts
to theft.



The title may be self given to give him status in a foreign part of the country.
He may be a solider of fortune turned swindler.  According to Rudlin, Riccoboni
identified two distinct types - the Italian who was a tall prideful figure who
posed with long sword hilt (probably a male model type) and the Spanish who was
blaze and ready to fight - full of attitude and under used ability.



Potentially a serious figure in other circumstances it is his bombasity, fake
superiority and the exposure of his fraudulant identity that is the comedic  - 
Initially he may be the subject of mistaken identity but instead of admiting to
it goes along with it and spends the rest of the time trying to catch on to what
he should know.



Frances



____________ _________ _________ __

From: Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@ yahoo.com>

To: commediadellarte@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Thu, 10 December, 2009 16:42:59

Subject: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Added to master list





Continuing my research; I've added the following names to the master list.



I would still love to have feedback on the strengths/weaknesse s of theser
examples. Many of these shows I'm unfamiliar with.



Perhaps we could have a number in front of the names

1= very strong example

2= strong example

3= acceptable example



or even notation, for example... "Miles Gloriosus is an excellent example of
boasting that Capitano makes, but where Miles Gloriosus is truly brave and an
excellent soldeir, Capitano is the opposite."



Brighella

Rooster                                                Annie



Capitano

Ronnie Barnhardt                                 Observe and Report

Paul Blart                                             Paul Blart: Mall Cop

Joxer                                                    Xena: Warrior Princess

Mr. Furious                                          Mystery Men

The Wizard                                          The Wizard of Oz



Innamorati

Hero and Philia                         A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the
Forum

Romeo and Juliet                      Romeo and Juliet

Tony and Maria                       West Side Story







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Not too sure about some of the examples but something that might help you a bit
is that there are broadly different types of Il Capitano  -most fit into  the
Spanish (grandee) and the Italian types. 

In reality there are several including Scaramouche who is the swashbuckler. 
Always the outsider he may be Italian, spanish or calabrase has a long phallic
nose, long pointed felt hat and rapier, scarlet doublet (satirically military) ,
simultaneously obsessed with women but terrified of them (supposedly single but
no one really knows) , boasstful and cowardly and impovrished and often resorts
to theft. 

The title may be self given to give him status in a foreign part of the
country.  He may be a solider of fortune turned swindler.  According to
Rudlin, Riccoboni identified two distinct types - the Italian who was a tall
prideful figure who posed with long sword hilt (probably a male model type) and
the Spanish who was blaze and ready to fight - full of attitude and under used
ability. 

Potentially a serious figure in other circumstances it is his bombasity, fake
superiority and the exposure of his fraudulant identity that is the comedic  -
 Initially he may be the subject of mistaken identity but instead of admiting
to it goes along with it and spends the rest of the time trying to catch on to
what he should know.

Frances




________________________________
From: Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...>
To: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 10 December, 2009 16:42:59
Subject: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Added to master list

 
Continuing my research; I've added the following names to the master list.
 
I would still love to have feedback on the strengths/weaknesse s of theser
examples. Many of these shows I'm unfamiliar with.
 
Perhaps we could have a number in front of the names
1= very strong example
2= strong example
3= acceptable example
 
or even notation, for example... "Miles Gloriosus is an excellent example of
boasting that Capitano makes, but where Miles Gloriosus is truly brave and an
excellent soldeir, Capitano is the opposite."

Brighella
Rooster                                   
            Annie
 
Capitano
Ronnie Barnhardt                                
Observe and Report
Paul Blart                                
            Paul Blart: Mall Cop 
Joxer               
                                    Xena:
Warrior Princess
Mr. Furious                             
            Mystery Men
The Wizard                             
            The Wizard of Oz
 
Innamorati
Hero and Philia                         A Funny Thing
Happened on the Way to the Forum
Romeo and Juliet                      Romeo and Juliet
Tony and Maria                       West Side Story
 
 

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Continuing my research; I've added the following names to the master list.
 
I would still love to have feedback on the strengths/weaknesses of theser
examples. Many of these shows I'm unfamiliar with.
 
Perhaps we could have a number in front of the names
1= very strong example
2= strong example
3= acceptable example
 
or even notation, for example... "Miles Gloriosus is an excellent example of
boasting that Capitano makes, but where Miles Gloriosus is truly brave and an
excellent soldeir, Capitano is the opposite."

Brighella
Rooster                                                Annie
 
Capitano
Ronnie Barnhardt                                 Observe and Report
Paul Blart                                             Paul Blart: Mall Cop 
Joxer                                                    Xena: Warrior Princess
Mr. Furious                                          Mystery Men
The Wizard                                          The Wizard of Oz
 
Innamorati
Hero and Philia                         A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the
Forum
Romeo and Juliet                      Romeo and Juliet
Tony and Maria                       West Side Story
 
 




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Brilliant thanks for that

--- On Mon, 12/7/09, Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...> wrote:


From: Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...>
Subject: Re: [Commedia Dell'Arte] New file uploaded to commediadellarte
To: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, December 7, 2009, 11:02 PM


 



In an attempt to contribute (instead of incessant questions) I have listed the
common CdA characters and several of their modern sitcom counterparts. Many
entries are from this list, others come from my teacher, Jay Cross, still others
from my work teaching commedia. I've pulled more from websites with wild abandon
and careless disregard for attribution; sorry.

Please feel free to suggest additions, subtractions, annotations, or even
listing them in order of "strengths" as an example.

I have watched very little TV in the last decade, so that may be the weakest
portion.

Scot Eddy
iLeoni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In an attempt to contribute (instead of incessant questions) I have listed the
common CdA characters and several of their modern sitcom counterparts. Many
entries are from this list, others come from my teacher, Jay Cross, still others
from my work teaching commedia. I've pulled more from websites with wild abandon
and careless disregard for attribution; sorry.

Please feel free to suggest additions, subtractions, annotations, or even
listing them in order of "strengths" as an example.

I have watched very little TV in the last decade, so that may be the weakest
portion.

Scot Eddy
iLeoni















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the commediadellarte
group.

   File        : /Master List Modern Examples of CdA Characters.doc
   Uploaded by : mister_eddy2003 <mister_eddy2003@...>
   Description : Please comment

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/commediadellarte/files/Master%20List%20Modern%20Ex\
amples%20of%20CdA%20Characters.doc

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

mister_eddy2003 <mister_eddy2003@...>

We have a special "book" we made up for Il Dottore.  Bound sheets of
foam.  It's big, and light, but still makes a great thunk when you hit
Arlecchino with it.



Our Pantalone uses a tall cane with a big gold knob on top.  Something
he can use to, at least swing at people, though not actually hit them
with it.  Or you can kick it out from under him.



We have a cleaver that has been carefully unsharpened for use by the
servants or a wife in the kitchen.  To cut off the heads of rubber
chickens, that sort of thing.



We made a period looking crutch for Il Capitano, for after he stubs his
toe or whatever.



We use a large copper, not too heavy, tray for Columbina to use as a
shield while deflecting Pantalone's advances.



And most of the stuff you have listed below.



We also have various set pieces we have made.  A very sturdy table and
matching high back chair, both suitable for climbing all over.  Painted
backdrops of an interior and city exterior.  We have a balcony that
attached to the top of the table, (probably not something most troupes
would need).



Dale

________________________________

From: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scot Eddy
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 10:50 AM
To: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Prop list





Of course, the propr list is determined by the show the troupe is
performing, but I am curious what suggestions the groups has about a
list of more or less permanent props that a commedia group should have.

Here is what I have so far,
Batocchio
Knives with scabbards
Sacks (some bigenought for people)
Oversized doctors tools
Deck of cards
Pouch of gold coins
Glasses
Old books
Handkerchiefs
Pouches
Belts
Daggers
Swords
Baskets
Aprons
Fans
Giant spoons and fork (1970s decorations)

anything else I'm missing?

Thanks.

Scot

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nothing scarier for a woman than having someone come at her with an oversized
set of callipers
barber's clippers (remember doctors were traditionally barbers as well)
oversized book - maybe a dictionary, anatomy  or something completely
inappropriate for the situation
quill pen and ink (even an invisible ink scene could work - providing a touch of
cliched magic)
musical instruments for the zanni
toblerone - big block (for the guilty secret of the immorata)




________________________________
From: Kerry <kerrymason_2000@...>
To: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 1 December, 2009 20:21:48
Subject: Re: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Prop list

 
Rolling pin for Columbina
Large Enema syringe
Fake spaghetti (usually goes over the head of a lower class Zanni by Columbina
or Arrlequino)

--- On Tue, 12/1/09, Frances Crum <fncrum@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Frances Crum <fncrum@yahoo. com>
Subject: Re: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Prop list
To: commediadellarte@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 8:05 PM

 

a massive  oversized plastic flower pot - useful  for falling in wearing
etc. 
a massive pair of dice  (play dice with the de'il - mor ein keeping with a
mummers play but could be uese by allarchino or brighella in one of his schmes)
slapstick
cloaks
carnivale masks
keys (with both chain and a thin string - for snatching them back)
steps
a fold up massage table (no one said a doctor couldn't be a massure)

 

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@ yahoo.com>
To: commediadellarte@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, 1 December, 2009 18:50:07
Subject: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Prop list

 
Of course, the propr list is determined by the show the troupe is performing,
but I am curious what suggestions the groups has about a list of more or less
permanent props that a commedia group should have.
 
Here is what I have so far,
Batocchio
Knives with scabbards
Sacks (some bigenought for people)
Oversized doctors tools
Deck of cards
Pouch of gold coins
Glasses
Old books
Handkerchiefs
Pouches
Belts
Daggers
Swords
Baskets
Aprons
Fans
Giant spoons and fork (1970s decorations)
 
anything else I'm missing?
 
Thanks.
 
Scot

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rolling pin for Columbina
Large Enema syringe
Fake spaghetti (usually goes over the head of a lower class Zanni by Columbina
or Arrlequino)

--- On Tue, 12/1/09, Frances Crum <fncrum@...> wrote:


From: Frances Crum <fncrum@...>
Subject: Re: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Prop list
To: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 8:05 PM


 



a massive  oversized plastic flower pot - useful  for falling in wearing
etc. 
a massive pair of dice  (play dice with the de'il - mor ein keeping with a
mummers play but could be uese by allarchino or brighella in one of his schmes)
slapstick
cloaks
carnivale masks
keys (with both chain and a thin string - for snatching them back)
steps
a fold up massage table (no one said a doctor couldn't be a massure)

 

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@ yahoo.com>
To: commediadellarte@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tue, 1 December, 2009 18:50:07
Subject: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Prop list

 
Of course, the propr list is determined by the show the troupe is performing,
but I am curious what suggestions the groups has about a list of more or less
permanent props that a commedia group should have.
 
Here is what I have so far,
Batocchio
Knives with scabbards
Sacks (some bigenought for people)
Oversized doctors tools
Deck of cards
Pouch of gold coins
Glasses
Old books
Handkerchiefs
Pouches
Belts
Daggers
Swords
Baskets
Aprons
Fans
Giant spoons and fork (1970s decorations)
 
anything else I'm missing?
 
Thanks.
 
Scot

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

a massive  oversized plastic flower pot - useful  for falling in wearing
etc. 
a massive pair of dice  (play dice with the de'il - mor ein keeping with a
mummers play but could be uese by allarchino or brighella in one of his schmes)
slapstick
cloaks
carnivale masks
keys (with both chain and a thin string - for snatching them back)
steps
a fold up massage table (no one said a doctor couldn't be a massure)


 



________________________________
From: Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...>
To: commediadellarte@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 1 December, 2009 18:50:07
Subject: [Commedia Dell'Arte] Prop list

 
Of course, the propr list is determined by the show the troupe is performing,
but I am curious what suggestions the groups has about a list of more or less
permanent props that a commedia group should have.
 
Here is what I have so far,
Batocchio
Knives with scabbards
Sacks (some bigenought for people)
Oversized doctors tools
Deck of cards
Pouch of gold coins
Glasses
Old books
Handkerchiefs
Pouches
Belts
Daggers
Swords
Baskets
Aprons
Fans
Giant spoons and fork (1970s decorations)
 
anything else I'm missing?
 
Thanks.
 
Scot

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]