Grand idea. I will see if I can get ahold of this one and (more difficult) find
time to read it.

that's a great idea - and thanks for reminding me
that it's Ben Katchor not Julius Knipl -- i used to
live in chicago and could weekly read that and Chris
Ware's stuff - but now am banished to a small town about
one and a half hours south of chicago - it might be
kind of hard for me to find that stuf 00 but by god, i
will try my damnedest....<br><br>nice to know gary
panter is still around -- and there's another guy --
baseman -- that seems to be everywhere now - the new
yorker, credit card ads, you name it<br><br><br>here's
another one that I've heard about but have not been able
to find -- it's a collection of reflections of
people in old people's homes illustrated by numerous
artists including (and the cover is done by,) Chris
Ware.... has anyone else seen/read/observed that?

had an idea for an activity for this club. How
about once a month or so a comic will be chosen as the
Comics as Fine Art book club selection. Then we can all
read it, and praise the dickens out of it or trash it
or whatever. Just like in those Great Book clubs
that meet at your local Barnes and Nobel.
<br><br><br>Anyway I nominate for the May 1999 Comics as Fine Art
Book Club selection: Ben Katchor’s The Jew of New
York.<br><br>If anyone has any suggestions for June’s selection
let me know via e-mail.

just wanted to make some quick random comments.
Gary Panter is still around. He is doing lots of
commercial art and if I'm not mistaken his work is being
published by Matt Groenings comic book
company.<br><br>Someone made mention of Julius Knipl, Real Estate
Photographer. Here is the skinny: Julius Knipl is the name of
the main character of Ben Katchor's comic called,
Julius Knipl, Real Estate Photographer. It is about a
lonely guy who wanders through New York and finds
existential oddities of urben decay. I will post a random
sample of the writing. <br><br>Sign says "Moyel Bros.
fine men's wear You NEED A NEW SUIT. Entrance
here."<br><br>Narator: "Mr. Knipl saw this sign... from a distance,...
on his way somewhere else,... every day, for
years... One day, he went to look for a light weight
jacket."<br><br>Knipl: "Where is the entrance?"<br><br>Other man: "Moyel
Brothers? I don't know. I've been here for six years.
Before that was a restaurant and before that... Maybe
Moyel Brothers."<br><br>I am happy to say that he has a
new book out called "The Jew of New York" I
understand it is a best seller. Also he was on tour and he
was in San Francisco on May 15th. Just my luck to
find out today.<br><br>Three Ben Katchor
Links:<br><br><a href=http://www.maniform.com/rana/bentopeb.htm
target=new>http://www.maniform.com/rana/bentopeb.htm</a><br><a
href=http://www.drizzle.com/~ash/9901/imagined/katchor.html
target=new>http://www.drizzle.com/~ash/9901/imagined/katchor.html</a><br><a
href=http://www.spacelab.net/~bkatchor/
target=new>http://www.spacelab.net/~bkatchor/</a>

ello comic fans and creators im phil c prentice
-pcp im putting a buisness plan together for school to
put together a local/small scale arts publishing
printing promotion distribution company<br>which means
mostly comics right now <br>im looking for any advice
anyone has on costs of self publishing how much a 30
page black and white should cost(im thinking $1 to a
$1.50) whether people think that it is important to have
a small personalized aproach to local comics
etc.etc. mainly just feedback thanx for any help and if
you wish to view any comics we produce our first
title should be out in june on my homepage
<a href=http://www.mths.charter.k12.mn.us/pprentice
target=new>http://www.mths.charter.k12.mn.us/pprentice</a> while our works in
progress have more of an edgar
allen poe/outerlimits/twilightzone feel i am lookin
into the neocyberpunkcontemposcifi area
(akira,g.i.t.s.,darkcity,matrix,bladerunn)<br>thanks for any input and i hope to
hear from
you(possibly represent you) soon

agree with you on all counts. The Comix
community has been so isolated and incestuous (in all your
categories: artists, readers, distributors etc.) it was bound
to fall apart sooner or later. Our best artists are
dropping off into commercial art, going to other countries
where they are appreciated or just plain burning out. I
have been hoping for a while that the Internet would
fuel a resurgence of interest in comics. It may yet
happen.

Sorry about the double post on that last
message. What can I say. It's late. Our founder may want
to delete one of those--the one with the typos
please!)<br><br>I have not done anything with comix in a while, but
I know what you're talking about. It's a different
mind set when you jump from the single image statement
to the multiple, sequential image narrative. I go
nuts because of my desire to get everything perfect,
which is bad enough when I am doing a single drawing,
but when I extend that into a page of comix, man! I
feel like my head's gonna explode. It was a good
lesson for me. Forced me to take the larger view, not
get bogged down in the details. And also sometimes I
just had to say F**K it! It's not gonna be perfect;
this will have to do!<br><br>I think you have also hit
on an aspect of comix that is often overlooked: the
full page composition in conjunction with the panel to
panel transitions. By using both angles an artist can
add tremendous amounts of complexity to his/her
narratives. Most artists, though seem to be too focused on
the linear, story aspect to pick up on this powerful
tool.

i...<br><br>I wrote a very long winded response
to your message but I realized I really don't want
clog up this forum with my rantings.<br><br>I am
beside myself with joy to see other people talking about
comix in a thoughtful and considered way. I always knew
that there were other people out there who saw more
for comix than over-anatomized men in tights throwing
transit vehicles at each other. Now that I'm here, I
don't want to piss everyone off by boring you with my
off-topic obsessions. But I did re-post your questions as
well as the response to the Licensee This club at:
www.clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/licensethis if anyone is interested.<br><br>One quick
note
though: I am not so much worried about established
artists like Crumb or others, because they already know
the ins and outs of this kind of thing and they have
an established support system should problems arise.
I am worried about the wide-eyed novice who's just
wandering in thinking 'Wow! I can show my work to the whole
world!' and not realizing what they are giving away. I
mean, a lot of people are putting they're personal
artwork that they have spent hours, days, years
developing and creating. A lot of it is crappy but some of
it is fantastic. It's just plain sleazy for Yahoo!
to try and exploit the optimism of these good
people.<br><br>Oops! there I go again....

hank you for the warning! It is sad because I
would like for people to put samples of art they like
in the "Photos" section. It is ironic that we could
include a link to a sight with an image and not get into
any legal hassle, but Yahoo will claim ownership of
the image if we store it on their disk space.
<br><br>Does Yahoo then own the copyright if the image was
previously public domain?<br><br>Does Yahoo own the
copyright if someone posts a picture that someone else
already owns the copyright to?<br>(For example: Suppose I
am a big Robert Crumb fan and I love his work so
much that I decide to post all copies of my very large
Robert Crumb collection. Does this mean that Yahoo owns
the copyright to all of Robert Crumbs
work?)<br><br>I'm sure that for the most part Yahoo wasn't
intending to be a bother.

loved your top 10 list. As well as your other
posts. Welcome to the club. <br><br>The lady you ranked
above Charles Burns and Robert Crumb is Phoebe
Gloeckner. She is a truly gifted artist. Her work is really
incredible. Sadly she is no longer doing comics and is now
doing medical illustrations. I seem to remember reading
that that is what she has always wanted to do.
<br><br>One of the reasons I wanted to for this club is
because I have been out of what has been happening in
comix too. It is my understanding that the market has
crashed, and even people who are interested in comix are
finding them impossible to locate. The comics that are
coming out, including most under the "alternative"
banner, seem to me to be completely lacking in any kind
of modern art sensiblity. <br><br>I believe for an
artform to exist it needs:<br> Artist<br> People to enjoy
the art<br> People to distribute the art<br> People
to filter through the bad art (Critics)<br> People
to pay the artists<br><br>The comix world seems to
be losing numbers in every catagory. My hope is that
in this club, we at least can make a home for the
people who enjoy the art, and maybe the artform wont
die.

ll that subversive....<br><br><br>I'm just
wondering, is anyone else here working on a comic at the
moment. me and a friend have been dabbling in it but due
to an extenuating amount of sloth and lackluster
attitude have not gotten very far - my main problem is
making the bridge between so called fine art making to
comic making - i.e., i draw a lot on both paper and
with computer and when something is done i can sit
back and say ok, there's a drawing - but when
attempting to draw a comic i tend to sit back on my laurels
after one frame and say ok there, too, is a drawing -
does anyone else run into this - the only way i can
see of combatting this is to view the whole page as a
composition - or the whole comic as a composition ---<br>any
thoughts?

don't think they were conected, but who knows?
There is unfortunately not a lot of info on Kley. The
Bud Plant page that you link in your post has the
most I've ever seen. <br><br>I see the conection you
make with regards to their linework, but the subject
matter is pretty divergent. Kley is much more
subversive.

ut i think i've seen his stuff before
--<br>here's a page i found
--<br><a href=http://www.bpib.com/illustrat/kley.htm
target=new>http://www.bpib.com/illustrat/kley.htm</a><br><br>he wasn't good
buddies with Arthur Rackham by any
chance was he? their styles seem kind of
similar--<br><br>I will look for that kley dover book.

ver see the two books of Heinrich Kley drawings
from Dover? Great stuff. His line work is so frenetic,
it often feels as if he's on the verge of losing
control, but he never does. Almost never. And he did some
of the best anthropomorphized animals I've ever
seen.

nd furthermore some people i can think of that
did a fine job of blurring the line between comics
and fine art (it's all just pigeonholeing for
booksellers conveniences and educators' sloth anyways) are
Daumier, Grandville and Lyonel Feininger
--<br><a
href=http://cccw.adh.bton.ac.uk/schoolofdesign/MA.COURSE/01/LIAFeininger.html
target=new>http://cccw.adh.bton.ac.uk/schoolofdesign/MA.COURSE/01/LIAFeininger.h\
tml</a><br>which I'll wager at least half the farm Chris Ware has
done a lot of looking at even though his strip only
ran in the Chicago Tribune for about 8 weeks (i
think).<br><br>I've got a book that Dover (the starving artist's
favorite cheap book source) published that has all of the
strip in it he did for the Tribune -- and the color is
really amazing in it - it's real
Hokusai-jealousy-enducing stuff.<br><br>oh and then there's gary panter (is
he still around) and this guy named I think - Julius
Knipfl or maybe that's the name of the character but it
also has a very melancholy feel to it and Chris Ware I
believe once said it was one of his favorite
comics.<br><br>other good stuff to run across if you can find it is
all the old political stuff from Punch magazine in
the early 1900s -- magnificent and horrifying steel
engraving stuff - scary clown hunchbacks and
such.<br><br><br>oh and then there's the guy I love to hate - Jack
Chick who makes all those little tiny bible tracts you
find on the bus seat and cleverly hidden in books on
witchcraft in the library or - I even found one on a toilet
seat once (did not snag it) I'm not sure what the
statement there was but he has a website -- www.chick.com
--- where else can you see the exploits of a faceless
god destroying his minions seemingly
willy-nilly?<br><br>oh and three point i will join that other club you
mentioned but you know, by and large i figure anything i
put up on the web will be sampled by some crazed
new-age-kava-kava-swilling visual dj of some sort -- but i also operate
under the assumption that i'm constantly being watched
and recorded -- BUT I'M NOT PARANOID -- DON'T EVER
ACCUSE ME OF THAT DAMMIT....

i folks,<br><br>I don't know if any of the
members of this club are artists or creators but it you
are I want to alert you all of an extremely
disturbing portion of the Yahoo! Terms of Service agreement,
specifically the section regarding Club Photos. If you haven’t
read it, here is what it says:<br><br>“You [the user]
hereby grant to Yahoo! a non-exclusive, worldwide,
royalty-free, irrevocable, sublicenseable (through multiple
tiers) license to copy, display, distribute, modify and
transmit, in any media now known or not currently known,
with respect to your Photos”<br><br>What that means is
by simply posting an image to any Yahoo! Club you
give Yahoo! the right to do whatever they want with
it. They can sell it, use it in advertising, put it
in a clip art package, whatever. They can even
license it to another individual or company who can then
reproduce and sell it without naming you as the creator or
compensating you in any way. As artists and creators of
original works, we all should be extremely alarmed about
Yahoo!’s apparent failure to recognize our right to fully
control that which we create.<br><br>If this concerns you
as it does me here’s what you can do:<br><br>1. Do
not post your images to Yahoo! Clubs. I know, this is
painful. For us, as artists and creators, the Photos
feature of our clubs provides tremendous opportunities
for expression, networking, collaborative work...the
possibilities are endless. I have had a great time looking at
the artwork of people in the Cubs to which I belong
and as sad as I would be to lose that resource, I
would be far sadder still to see any of these fine
people exploited. Once we get Yahoo! to change their
policy on this we can all go back to utilizing this
excellent feature.<br><br>2. Send Yahoo! a note expressing
your outrage, disgust, frustration, disappointment.
<br><br>3. Come join the club that I have started: License
This at
<a href=http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/licensethis
target=new>http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/licensethis</a><br>and invite the
members of any other Clubs to which
you belong to join as well. Spread the word!<br><br>I
think in general Yahoo! is a fine company, with a fine
service, but this development throws the entire operation
into question. It must be changed.<br><br>Thanks for
listening.<br><br>Erik

i.<br><br>Just joined. You’re killin’ me with
this list...only ten? OK then...let me qualify by
saying I’ve been out of the loop with comix for awhile
so there are probably some new ones that I don’t
know. Also, this list is subject to change at any time,
without notice, so don’t quote me on it. Here
goes:<br><br>10. Crumb. I can’t put him any higher because of some
of his subject matter. I know the misogyny and
curmudgeonly attitudes are part of his shtick, but I find it
tedious. But for sheer rendering artistry, storytelling,
character depiction and dialogue he is pretty
amazing.<br><br>9. Charles Burns. A long time favorite. He doesn’t
do much to push the envelope by way of storytelling,
and his narrative motifs wear thin after a while, but
I could look at his art for hours.<br><br>8. Phoebe
Glockner (sp?). I just really like her stuff. I find her
stories moving.<br><br>7. Winsor McKay. Not underground
but unbelievable draftsmanship. Definitely ahead of
his time in the use graphic narrative.<br><br>6. Bill
Watterson. If you can have Schultz, I get Watterson. Again,
superb graphic narratives. His use composition and
layout to extend the storytelling aspects of the medium,
particularly in these days of shrinking newspaper strips, is
exemplary. Why have I never seen a parallel drawn between
McKays’s Nemo and Watterson’s Calvin? Is it just too
obvious? These two strips are as fascinating for there
differences as they are for their similarities and taken
together speak volumes about the American psyche in the
20th Century.<br><br>5. Edward Gorey. Is a comix
creator if you accept Scott McCloud’s definition (I do).
Funny, disturbing, baffling. What more do want in a work
of art?<br><br>4. Chris Ware. At his best his work
displays a flawless marriage of image and text in the
creation of an emotional atmosphere. There is in his work
a palpable sense of melancholic nostalgia that
always gets me. I also admire his subtle use of color
and economy of line. And the typography! All done by
hand, without computers. <br><br>3. Chester Brown.
Defies description.<br><br>2. Jim Woodring. Speaks more
directly to my aesthetic sense than any other
artist.<br><br>1. Art Speigleman. Gets the number one spot because
his work as artist, editor and essayist was primarily
responsible for my interest and involvement in comix.

ou are right. What is a Underground comic club
with out mention of Robert Crumb? I guess because he
defines comics so much that I forgot to include him on my
list. Personally I wouldn't include Gilbert Shelton in
my top ten. I would rate S. Clay Wilson and Spain.
above him. I guess that is the fun about making top ten
lists. There are only Ten spots. Now who do I take off
my list? I can't take off the creators of Zippy the
Pinhead or Maus. I guess the creator of Peanuts will have
to go.

was very saddened to learn that Saul Steinberg
died. He was one of the most brilliant cartoonists
ever. His line work is simple and elegant. I have added
a Saul Steinberg link. And I am including a quote
by him that I think sums up the philosophy of this
club. <br><br>"People who see a drawing in the "New
Yorker" will think automatically that it's funny because
it is a cartoon. If they see it in a museum, they
think it is artistic; and if they find it in a fortune
cookie they think it is a prediction."--Saul Steinberg

ou have to put R. Crumb in there along with
Gilbert Shelton!<br><br>BTW, anyone seen the "Kabuki"
series by David Mack- this is very high comic art with
social commentary. The "Images" series especially. Check
it out- great stuff!<br><br>Def_Wheezer

ob Burden has a fantastic imagination. I never
did learn the identity of the Flaming Carrot. Every
page had such an odd humor on it. I hope we will see
more of his work in the future. He just seemed to
disappear after Robot comics. <br><br>I have heard that Tom
Waits it actually a comic book fan. I don't know if
this is true. Loved the Mystery Men. I hope the movie
is a hit. But I will alway remember it as a comic.

ey you should check out the work of Jamie
Hernandez. You can still get reprints of his work from Love
and Rockets. He is a great artist and I know four out
of five cartoonists on your list worship him. I am
going to see if I can find a Hernandez brother's link.
Chris Ware is an amazing artist too. He also has done
some work for Speak magazine that is really good.

is comics out, his new series "David Boring" is
wonderful! Does anyone know about the "Ghost World" movie?
He's super nice too; he wrote me back and gave me a
li'l drawing!<br>4. Steven Weissman: for those of you
who do not know of him, he is an artist whose
characters are somewhat reminiscent of Peanuts, yet they are
absolutely cuter, but filled with more vitriol. a perfect
combination. oh yeah, its called YIKES. also LEMON KIDS.<br>5.
Adrian Tomine: latest comic somewhat of a disappointment
though. :(<br>I can't think of anymore right now, but
i'll probably add more later.

t! I thought you might have ment that Tom Waits
gave an interview under the guise of Dr. Heller as in
his upcoming role in "MysteryMen", you know that this
new movie is straight from the craw of Bob Burden
dont you? What a great casting choice! Tom Waits as Dr
Heller! Visit <a href=http://www.mysterymen.com
target=new>http://www.mysterymen.com</a> and have a look!
BTW thanks for the invite to the club, its pretty
cozy with just you and I but I think few are chooosen
and we just have to wait for the others to show
up!<br>Selina

obert Pinsky paid tribute to Shel Silverstein on
PBS' "The News Hour". In the tribute he also mentions
the work of Edward Lear. I had never heard of Edward
Lear before but the drawings Pinsky showed on his
"News Hour" segment blew me away. I have added a Edward
Lear link if anyone is interested.

hel Silverstein was a wonderful illustartor who
died on Monday. He was known for various children's
books that had strong appeal to adults. My two
favorites are "The Giving Tree" and "The Missing Piece".
Remember seeing "The Missing Piece" when in came out and I
have had it in my the back of my mind ever since. I
can't think of a work in all comix that has more visual
economy.

he current issue of EYE magazine as a wonderful
essay by Steven Heller. I wonder if anyone has seen it.
Steven Heller edited a wonderful book titled "Man Bites
Man" about cartoonist. I highly recomend it.

just discovered Molly Barker, a comic artist I
was unaware of before. I found her work in a small
hard cover book published by City Lights Books called
"Secret Language". The book consists of a series of poems
and on each page is a drawing and usually a line from
the story of poem. In beautifully scratchy black and
white squares Barker tells her storys. Her art is like
an expressive but complex doodle that one might do
while on the phone. Collectively they add up to a wispy
hauting quality. <br> "This Island....The wind in its
tree....And all the rooms of the familiar....with music in
between." This is just a sample of the captions under the
pictures. <br>Does anyone else have a hard to find our
under appreciated comic they know about?

ho would you include in the Comics Hall of
Fame?<br><br>Here are my top ten in no particular order<br><br>1.
Winsor McKay<br>2. George Herriman<br>3. Bill
Griffth<br>4. Art Spiegelman<br>5. Charles Burns<br>6. Oulcat
(yellow kid creator) please correct my spelling<br>7.
Julie Doucet<br>8. Jamie Hernandez<br>9. Charles
Schultz<br>10. Dan Clowes

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