The modem enabled this;i believe the telco interface gear between the
computer and phone lines was called  DDT & DDR(digital data
transmitter & receiver),and of course modems up to 4800bps. These
pages will shed some light on the process:


http://www.smecc.org/sage_a_n_fsq-7.htm

http://www.govtech.net/magazine/channel_story.php/90197


also a page on the old Stewart AFB Direction Center:

www.nationaltrust.org/magazine/ archives/arch_story/101701.htm



--- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "schallenbergjeff"
<jeffschallenberg@g...> wrote:
> Greetings.
> This is Jeff Schallenberg, and I was glad to find this discussion
> group, in my quest for information on the early evolution of
computer
> networks.
>
> I am an ex-officer of the RCAF, back in the cold-war days of the
> sixties. My first posting after graduating from the University of
> Toronto with an Electrical Engineering degree, in 1964, was to a
> Pinetree Line radar site, Holberg, BC. It was home to 53 AC&W
> Squadron, and I was appointed Station Radar Officer. I came to
> understand how the FPS-20 Search radar and the FPS-9 Heightfinder
> radar worked, and I occasionally worked the Aircraft Control and
> Intercept consoles during exercises.
>
> But I never really came to understand how the radar return
information
> was processed and transmitted over VF lines and microwaves, through
> the BCTel network (I guess it was the Voice network, since Data
> networks were in their fetal stages back then), and thence to our
Data
> Center at McChord AFB in Tacoma WA.
>
> I remember a visit to McChord, and a visit to the computer room, but
> not a lot of details.
>
> I would like to find, with your help, links to descriptions of how
the
> information from remote radar consoles like those at Holberg was
> processed, encoded and transmitted to centers like McChord and
North Bay.
>
> I know there is a lot of good info in your archives on this Yahoo!
> group - but it's not easy to find with the Yahoo! Search function,
and
> some of the old nuggets point to web pages that are no longer active
> (for example, one of your founding members photocopied and scanned
an
> article from the Bell Labs Record about "SAGE's Radio Pipeline", and
> posted it on his Chattanooga Scanner site. The site is still there,
> but the article doesn't seem to be).
>
> Since I left the RCAF in 1967, I have been working for Bell Canada
in
> the areas of Microwave and Fiber Optics, so I have a good background
> in how "modern" data communications networks have evolved since the
> 1970s, from 1200-bps modems to T1 and Frame Relay, up to Gigabit
> Ethernet and ATM over ADSL and SONET today. But there's a "missing
> link" (pardon the pun) before ARPANET, when the SAGE network was
> pioneering the concepts of Wide-Area Computer-to-Computer
> communications, that I am anxious to catch up on. I hope to fill in
> those gaps in my knowledge, with the help of members of this Group.
>
> - Jeff Schallenberg
> Saint Lambert, Qu颥c
>
> So I trust in your indulgence in pointing me to resources either in
> your archives

Great resources, oz!

It's all starting to come together now!

- Jeff

An interesting aspect of the AT&T concrete-silo microwave tower near Lee, IL
is that the facility was given a name in addition to the usual geographic
place name (Lee).  In his history of the site, Terry Michaels notes that "At
a 1949 dinner ceremony the Lee site was dedicated to Randolph Eide, then
President of Ohio Bell, afterwards the site was referred to on some plot
plan drawings as the "Eide Tower near Lee, IL". Eide grew up in nearby Lee,
IL."

Terry has contributed the scanned pages of a booklet prepared for the
dedication ceremony, which I've posted at:
http://long-lines.net/places-routes/LeeIL/EideDedication/cover.html .

Albert

Another interesting contribution from Wayne Weishan: the modulation plan for
the J-carrier system, developed in the 1930s to  transmit twelve voice
channels on two open-wire pairs using analog frequency-division
multiplexing:
http://long-lines.net/tech-equip/misc/J-CarrierModulationPlan.html .

Wayne has provided more material on this topic, to be posted soon.

Albert

... delurking ....

Saw the following on a blog from some ppl still in New Orleans and
wonder if anyone can clarify the reason the Bell South building would
need this kind of protection? I understand some protection from the
looting is required... but this almost sounds like Blackwater Pro's...
is this a MAJOR comm hub of some sort?

Thanks for the help...

http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/50956.html

"Law enforcement have absolutely lost their minds. Some guy wearing
khaki fatigues and black vests which say Police on them have their
faces covered in black ski masks and are touting M4-A1s with front hand
grips -- like they're some kind of Delta Force operators waiting to hit
the tire house. They're guarding the four corners around the Bell South
building for crying out loud. And what, they need secret identities?
Come on. You can just tell some of these guys have never gotten out
before. Now's their big chance to play Army."

Charles wrote:

> Saw the following on a blog from some ppl still in New Orleans and
> wonder if anyone can clarify the reason the Bell South building would
> need this kind of protection? I understand some protection from the
> looting is required... but this almost sounds like Blackwater Pro's...
> is this a MAJOR comm hub of some sort?

It's not a 'secret' comm hub, but the main BellSouth / AT&T building
on Poydras IS a major comm hub. If they were to lose it (flood, arson,
looting), then all the long distance from Biloxi, MS, halfway to
Houston, TX and probably as far north as Natchez would be out. The
little cellular they have in the area would be disrupted. The
central business district (banks, other employers,) and 911 service
would be crippled for MONTHS.

The building is between the SuperDome and the Convention Center.
Both locations were hit with some 'instability' last week.
Luckily (actually, more due to Bell/AT&T's foresight) the
building is on the high ground near the river, not in the flooded
area.

They are also (I'm sure) ferrying diesel in by the trailer truck
load, as the building hasn't lost power throughout the storm,
as far as I can tell.

That building, along with the water, sewage treatment,
electric supply and flood pumping stations is critical to
the city's survival.

They know that, so it's being well protected. No 'black hat' stuff,
just common sense.

The BellSouth building probably carries communications for
police/government.  I can understand that they would be willing to
protect it at all costs.  They had folks shooting at rescue helos.
They had no idea what lengths people would go to to wreak havoc.

On 9/6/05, Jim Burks <jburks2@...> wrote:
> Charles wrote:
>
> > Saw the following on a blog from some ppl still in New Orleans and
> > wonder if anyone can clarify the reason the Bell South building would
> > need this kind of protection? I understand some protection from the
> > looting is required... but this almost sounds like Blackwater Pro's...
> > is this a MAJOR comm hub of some sort?
>
> It's not a 'secret' comm hub, but the main BellSouth / AT&T building
> on Poydras IS a major comm hub. If they were to lose it (flood, arson,
> looting), then all the long distance from Biloxi, MS, halfway to
> Houston, TX and probably as far north as Natchez would be out. The
> little cellular they have in the area would be disrupted. The
> central business district (banks, other employers,) and 911 service
> would be crippled for MONTHS.
>
> The building is between the SuperDome and the Convention Center.
> Both locations were hit with some 'instability' last week.
> Luckily (actually, more due to Bell/AT&T's foresight) the
> building is on the high ground near the river, not in the flooded
> area.
>
> They are also (I'm sure) ferrying diesel in by the trailer truck
> load, as the building hasn't lost power throughout the storm,
> as far as I can tell.
>
> That building, along with the water, sewage treatment,
> electric supply and flood pumping stations is critical to
> the city's survival.
>
> They know that, so it's being well protected. No 'black hat' stuff,
> just common sense.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>  Visit your group "coldwarcomms" on the web.
>
>  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  coldwarcomms-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  coldwarcomms-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> ________________________________
>


--
Jim Browne

--- Charles <the_zipper1@...> wrote:

> if anyone can clarify the reason the Bell South building would
>
> need this kind of protection?

From today's Wall Street Journal:

Phone Networks
Fail Once Again
In a Disaster

By DIONNE SEARCEY and JESSE DRUCKER
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
September 6, 2005; Page A19

NEW ORLEANS -- Nearly 1.8 million phone lines and countless cellphones
were interrupted or went dead along the Gulf Coast. Thousands of New
Orleans residents trapped in their homes by rising water couldn't call
out to seek help. And friends and relatives couldn't contact them to
find out whether they had escaped.

For the third time in four years, vital telephone systems failed after
a major disaster hit the U.S. After the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist
attacks, the blackout of 2003 and now Hurricane Katrina, residents and
even emergency personnel found themselves cut off. Even as of
yesterday, large parts of the telecom system in the area hit by Katrina
still had spotty or no service, with BellSouth saying about one million
of its lines were down or working only sporadically.

What went wrong this time?

The systems responsible for transmitting Internet data, landline and
cellphone traffic broke down after backup generators, designed to keep
phone lines powered, either ran out of fuel or were flooded because
they were located on lower floors of phone-equipment centers rather
than out of reach from flood water. Phone lines broke as poles went
down from high winds or the flooding. And an onslaught of calls
overwhelmed the few lines that still were operating.

To BellSouth Corp., the region's dominant phone company and part-owner
of cellular giant Cingular Wireless, Katrina posed a set of unique
challenges: Many BellSouth employees trained to repair and maintain its
networks became victims themselves. Some of the company's equipment in
New Orleans is old and vulnerable to water damage; splices in its
copper phone lines, for example, are covered with paper instead of
protective plastic. And at its key New Orleans operations center, the
building was threatened by reports of looters and employees had to be
evacuated. BellSouth expects the hurricane damage will cost it $400
million to $600 million.

The situation could deteriorate if critical equipment -- including
machinery at one telecom hub in New Orleans that is the nerve center
for large parts of the region -- can't be fed constantly with fuel as
well as water used for cooling. Cingular, meanwhile, said yesterday
that its repair crews had entered New Orleans and some cellular calls
were going through, though at "reduced levels," and competitor Sprint
Nextel Corp. said it had gotten 35 of its 208 cellular sites in the
greater New Orleans area running, allowing outgoing calls for the first
time since the storm hit a week ago.

How can phone systems be made to withstand future disasters? Engineers
and telecom executives say that part of the answer could be for the
networks to create additional capacity and to install more emergency
power systems at secure locations. They add that additional wireless
infrastructure -- possibly incorporating satellite or microwave
technology -- could provide backup systems in emergencies.

"There are new services that would incorporate a mixture of systems so
that in events like this there is a higher degree of survivability,"
said John Muleta, an attorney at Venable LLP and the recently departed
head of the wireless bureau of the Federal Communications Commission.

But the FCC doesn't require phone companies to have a certain amount of
emergency power. Plus, the flooding last week of numerous telephone
central offices that house switches -- the specialized computers that
route calls -- raises questions about whether those centers are being
built or sited to withstand the most serious disasters.

Yet operators of the phone systems were hardly caught by surprise.
BellSouth, whose engineers have vast experience dealing with
hurricanes, prepared meticulously for the storm and began tracking it
two weeks ago from yesterday as waves were building. On the day before
Katrina hit the mainland, the Atlanta-based company sent a corporate
jet with a stash of satellite phones, food and water for personnel at a
key operations center in downtown New Orleans and elsewhere on Gulf
Coast. The company sandbagged back-up power generators at switching
centers throughout the region and propped floodgates against doors. It
gathered technicians from all over the region to be on standby for
repairs.

The next night, things went wrong: The power at the key New Orleans hub
went out and the building switched to generators. The rain was so
fierce that water blew into the window vents where the machines usually
release heat. Water got inside the generators and splattered onto the
floor.

At a command center in Atlanta, a white map showed an ever-increasing
number of red smudges indicating power outages in hundreds of locations
-- a telltale sign that phone service was also out, or going to be out
soon, in those places.

Phone-switching centers are equipped with large batteries that kick in
if the generators fail, but the batteries last only about eight hours.
So BellSouth began assembling 1,200 power generators from all over its
nine-state region and hauling them on trucks toward areas outside the
hurricane's path. The trucks started moving into some areas that
weren't flooded as the storm subsided. By Tuesday, the day after the
storm hit, the company was starting to assemble tents where displaced
employees and their families could shower and sleep.

At the New Orleans hub, repair efforts grew complicated because so many
employees had brought their families there to ride out the storm
because the building was thought to be hurricane-proof. By Wednesday,
the center's plumbing and sanitation had gone out. Outside the brick
building, people started collecting on the flooded streets. Police
warned the company about the breakdown of security. The building could
be a target for looters, they cautioned, because it was one of the few
places in town with electricity.

That night, with state troopers on guard, 82 employees and their
families still at the building piled into buses and headed out of the
city as they were threatened by looters. They made sure the air
conditioners were running and the generators had enough fuel as they
left the building empty for the night. But by 6 a.m. the next day the
air conditioners had run out of water needed to chill them. Workers
returned just as things were starting to heat up. On Thursday morning,
the Federal Bureau of Investigation sent six heavily armed officers to
the building to make sure no looters could get in. They were followed
by a skeleton crew of engineers to oversee the equipment.

Meanwhile, technicians and other workers gathered at a corporate
landing strip outside the city to receive tetanus and hepatitis shots
before they boarded a company jet to deliver bullhorns, diapers, toilet
paper, juice and water to tent cities where stranded employees could
recover.

The downed landline connections also crippled the area's cellphone
networks. That's because much of a wireless call is actually carried
over traditional phone lines. And even in areas where the landline
connections to the cellphone networks stayed up, power at the cellphone
transmission towers often ran out, knocking the towers offline.

Such a situation could be mitigated, some telecom engineers and telecom
executives say, by linking certain cellphone towers to satellite or
microwave communications systems that could be deployed in an
emergency. Such technology already is used in some sparsely populated
rural areas, where cell towers connect to faraway switching stations
via microwaves, not underground cables. And several carriers are
examining using the hotly anticipated technology known as WiMAX to
provide a similar service: wireless connections to the wired network.

Paul Kolodzy, an engineering consultant and former chairman of the
FCC's spectrum policy task force, says there's another step cellular
companies could take: encouraging their customers to use text messaging
or email sent from their phones during a crisis. That's because a
12-line wireless email or text message takes up about as much network
capacity as a single second of talking on a cellphone. In fact, text
messaging was one of the few ways in which many Katrina refugees could
make any contact with others last week.





----------------------------------------------------------------
  "As you ramble through life, brother, no matter what your goal,
  keep your eye upon the doughnut, and not upon the hole"
             --Dr. Murray Banks, quoting a menu
----------------------------------------------------------------
Daryl R. Gibson, MCSE
Office: (801)422-2950  Cell: (801)367-4341
Home: (702)734-6153, Utah Residence: (801)802-6348

Someone hasn't opened their law books lately.  It is a Federal crime to
travel masked under color of authority while armed.  A civil rights statute.


Charles wrote:

>... delurking ....
>
>Saw the following on a blog from some ppl still in New Orleans and
>wonder if anyone can clarify the reason the Bell South building would
>need this kind of protection? I understand some protection from the
>looting is required... but this almost sounds like Blackwater Pro's...
>is this a MAJOR comm hub of some sort?
>
>Thanks for the help...
>
>http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/50956.html
>
>"Law enforcement have absolutely lost their minds. Some guy wearing
>khaki fatigues and black vests which say Police on them have their
>faces covered in black ski masks and are touting M4-A1s with front hand
>grips -- like they're some kind of Delta Force operators waiting to hit
>the tire house. They're guarding the four corners around the Bell South
>building for crying out loud. And what, they need secret identities?
>Come on. You can just tell some of these guys have never gotten out
>before. Now's their big chance to play Army."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

They aren't traveling under "color of authority", they ARE authority.


MA BELL is back, and boy is she pissed!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My reading of various news articles (see today's Washington Post
Business section) is that they've had to bring in armed security to
protect the diesel fuel supply for the generators from being looted,
both enroute to and at the facility.  Actually, I'm familiar with
Blackwater and they would be a pretty solid choice for this assignment

Paul Rosa
Harpers Ferry, WV

Charles wrote:

>... delurking ....
>
>Saw the following on a blog from some ppl still in New Orleans and
>wonder if anyone can clarify the reason the Bell South building would
>need this kind of protection? I understand some protection from the
>looting is required... but this almost sounds like Blackwater Pro's...
>is this a MAJOR comm hub of some sort?
>
>Thanks for the help...
>
>http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/50956.html
>
>"Law enforcement have absolutely lost their minds. Some guy wearing
>khaki fatigues and black vests which say Police on them have their
>faces covered in black ski masks and are touting M4-A1s with front hand
>grips -- like they're some kind of Delta Force operators waiting to hit
>the tire house. They're guarding the four corners around the Bell South
>building for crying out loud. And what, they need secret identities?
>Come on. You can just tell some of these guys have never gotten out
>before. Now's their big chance to play Army."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 prevents any Federal military unit
(Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, with certain exceptions, Coast Guard,
and the National Guard once they have been federalized) from being
used in law enforcement. However, it does not prevent them from
securing federal installations or other installations vital to
national interests. There were several reports that immediately after
Katrina passed (and before the levee breached) that a number of
installations in New Orleans had been secured. I would assume these to
be vital communications, DEA, FBI, Federal Court, Federal Reserve, and
other similar installations.

As for the black masks, that one I don't know about.

Walt

--- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Spencer <slholcom@p...> wrote:
> They aren't traveling under "color of authority", they ARE authority.
>
>
> MA BELL is back, and boy is she pissed!
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Posse Comitatus Act (18 USC 1385) does *NOT* in any way prohibit the
use of the Navy or the Marines for law enforcement, nor does it mention
the Coast Guard.  Even the prohibitions against the usage of the Army or
Air Force contain a broad "weasel clause" which would at first glance be
fully met by the Stafford Act (ie if FEMA or the Presdent declare an
emergency of national significance).
The Posse Comitatus Act can be found at
http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+696+0++%28%\
29%20%20AND%20%28%2818%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20AND%20%28USC%20w%2F10%20%28138\
5%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20


wwcasey wrote:

>The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 prevents any Federal military unit
>(Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, with certain exceptions, Coast Guard,
>and the National Guard once they have been federalized) from being
>used in law enforcement. However, it does not prevent them from
>securing federal installations or other installations vital to
>national interests. There were several reports that immediately after
>Katrina passed (and before the levee breached) that a number of
>installations in New Orleans had been secured. I would assume these to
>be vital communications, DEA, FBI, Federal Court, Federal Reserve, and
>other similar installations.
>
>As for the black masks, that one I don't know about.
>
>Walt
>
>--- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Spencer <slholcom@p...> wrote:
>
>
>>They aren't traveling under "color of authority", they ARE authority.
>>
>>
>>MA BELL is back, and boy is she pissed!
>>
>>
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

To all list members concerned about Mark Cuccia:

Mark Cuccia is safe and sound. Mark called me at 8 AM this morning
(Wednesday). His apartment did not get flooded and he is fine.

Today has been the first day that he has been able to get a cell
signal since the hurricane and subsequent flood. He is still without
electrical power.

However, please do not call Mark right now, as he is saving battery
power on his cell phone and reception is still spotty.

He plans on leaving New Orleans to stay at his aunt in New Iberia,
LA. He said he will call me when he reaches his aunt's house. If he
is still not able to send out a message, I'll send a message at that
time that he has made it out of New Orleans.

Please let others know that he is safe and sound.

Dave Perrussel
Webmaster - Telephone World
http://www.dmine.com/phworld

A history of the project, and declassified documents - very interesting
reading:
http://www.cia.gov/csi/books/17240/art-7.html

Albert

The fact that this item has nothing to do with "coldwar.com" (other than it's an
AT&T/Bellsouth hub) is one thing. I for one don't care if the building is
protected by local law enforcement, the FBI, a fully outfitted U S Air FORCE
wing, or a retired guard from AT&T's Sandia Corp. with an old atomic warhead.
Are you really upset their protecting the building and its functions?


MA BELL is back, and boy is she pissed!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From Wayne Weishan, showing how an open-wire line's bandwidth was allocated
among J-carrier with twelve voice channels, C-carrier with three channels,
along with one channel on the physical (non-carrier) pair:
http://long-lines.net/tech-equip/misc/J-CarrierLineSpectrum.html .

Sixteen one-way voice circuits on a single pair of wires - quite an
accomplishment for that era!

Albert

Isn't the Coast Guard considered NOT a military organization?

Kenneth Coney <superc@...> wrote:The Posse Comitatus Act (18 USC
1385) does *NOT* in any way prohibit the
use of the Navy or the Marines for law enforcement, nor does it mention
the Coast Guard.  Even the prohibitions against the usage of the Army or


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "Albert LaFrance" <lafrance@a...>
wrote:
> A history of the project, and declassified documents - very interesting
> reading:
> http://www.cia.gov/csi/books/17240/art-7.html
>
> Albert

There was also an article on this topic in the magazine (American
Heritage of) Invention and Technology some years back.

Complete truth.  They are a civilian LE agency under Homeland.  I have
no idea why someone would presume they were somehow included in Posse
Comitatas.

Bill Smith wrote:

>Isn't the Coast Guard considered NOT a military organization?
>
>

In time of war the Coast Guard comes under the Navy, as it did in WW2.

TBMoran


Kenneth Coney <superc@...> wrote:

>Complete truth.  They are a civilian LE agency under Homeland.  I have
>no idea why someone would presume they were somehow included in Posse
>Comitatas.
>
>Bill Smith wrote:
>
>>Isn't the Coast Guard considered NOT a military organization?
>>  
>>
>
>

__________________________________________________________________
Switch to Netscape Internet Service.
As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register

Netscape. Just the Net You Need.

New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer
Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups.
Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp

Yes but the Navy is not affected by Posse Commitatus either, so why
would someone assume the Coast Guard was?

thomasbmoran@... wrote:

>In time of war the Coast Guard comes under the Navy, as it did in WW2.
>
>TBMoran
>
>
>Kenneth Coney <superc@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Complete truth.  They are a civilian LE agency under Homeland.  I have
>>no idea why someone would presume they were somehow included in Posse
>>Comitatas.
>>
>>Bill Smith wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Isn't the Coast Guard considered NOT a military organization?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Switch to Netscape Internet Service.
>As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register
>
>Netscape. Just the Net You Need.
>
>New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer
>Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups.
>Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Then this statement from 
http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm  is incorrect?


"To understand the extent to which the act has relevance today, it is important
to understand to whom the act applies and under what
circumstances. The statutory language of the act does not apply to all U.S.
military forces.[2] While the act applies to the Army,
Air Force, Navy, and Marines, including their Reserve components, it does not
apply to the Coast Guard or to the huge military
manpower resources of the National Guard."

From: "Kenneth Coney" <superc@...>


> Yes but the Navy is not affected by Posse Commitatus either...

There are a whole bunch of statements in the web link you posted.  Some
are true, at least one is wrong according to web link at
http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+696+0++%28%\
29%20%20AND%20%28%2818%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20AND%20%28USC%20w%2F10%20%28138\
5%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20
(which I trust as the Congress are indeed the ones who write the law),
and some of his statements subject to interpretation.

"The statutory language of the act does not apply to all U.S. military
forces.[2] <#_edn2> While the act applies to the Army, Air Force, Navy,
and Marines, including their Reserve components, it does not apply to
the Coast Guard or to the huge military manpower resources of the
National Guard.[3] <#_edn3>" is a bizarre mixed statement.  The
references at the bottom of his page 1) contains the same language as
the link I point to above, 2) says "The act as originally passed
referenced only limitations upon the Army. After World War II, it was
amended to include the Air Force. By DoD Directive 5525.5, the
limitations of the act have been administratively adopted to apply to
the Navy and Marine Corps as well." while 3) says, "The peacetime law
enforcement mission of the Coast Guard has been well recognized since
the founding of its parent agency, the Revenue Marine, in 1790."  How he
twists that to include the Navy and the Marines into the Posse
Commitatus Act is perhaps best explained by his statement "the
limitations of the act have been administratively adopted to apply to
the Navy and Marine Corps as well."  An administrative adaptation of a
law or rule by a military commander or a temporary secretary (all agency
heads are temporary four year appointments and anything they say or
decision they make can easily be reversed by the next one) is a long,
long, way from truthfully saying "while the Act applies to ..., Navy and
Marines..."  Indeed the '99 shooting incident he describes (the boy is
believed to have been shooting at what he thought was a rabbit or a
badger versus a cammied Marine laying prone among the brush) arose
specifically out of a decision to toss that adaptation for the Marine
Corps into the trash can, where it perhaps belonged as Congress knew of
a Navy and a Marine Corps when they wrote the original statute but
instead originally chose to allow such law enforcement action by those
same organizations.



Mike Magnus wrote:

>Then this statement from 
http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm  is incorrect?
>
>
>"To understand the extent to which the act has relevance today, it is important
to understand to whom the act applies and under what
>circumstances. The statutory language of the act does not apply to all U.S.
military forces.[2] While the act applies to the Army,
>Air Force, Navy, and Marines, including their Reserve components, it does not
apply to the Coast Guard or to the huge military
>manpower resources of the National Guard."
>
>From: "Kenneth Coney" <superc@...>
>
>
>
>
>>Yes but the Navy is not affected by Posse Commitatus either...
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

GA, Mike, et al of the group...
   I hope that I am not being too off the wall here, but I would presume,
that we have had some "reorganization" of policy since the terrorist
attacks of 9/11, especially when it comes to the use of military
response.   Personally, in this case, as in many cases since that
horrific date, I do not find this to be a bad thing..... If one can
believe one iota of what was being reported in regards to looting (I am
not talking about survivors trying to get basic life support necessities
here, I am talking about "roving bands" of looting thugs, takingmaterial
which couldn't be made to work in a city with a dead infrastructure (
electronics, luxury items, etc), and the deliberate setting of fires,
assaulting other survivors,etc, as seems to happen with great
"cooincidence" in most looting situations, as well as the random gunfire
at rescue personnel, would, to me, demand response in kind.   OK, I have
absolutely NO way of proving the veracity of these reports, and knowing
the propensity of the MSM to follow the "If it Bleeds, it Leads" maxim,
ad infinitum,  with the addition of the multiple hearsay component of
any of these "looting" or "atrocity" stories, which will inevitably
surface in a disaster situation,  If I were to be placed in charge I
would sure as all hell have issued orders to make sure any looters,
rioters, assaulters, and random shooters were dealt with in a rather
sudden and permanent fashion, with extreme predjudice.. Nothing
personal, that's the way it's done..in the real world.

While I have tremendous respect for the Posse Comitatus Act, as well as
Strict Constitutional interpretation, I feel that if things go pear
shaped, then you darn well have to think on the spot..... If  you have a
valuable comm center, that absolutely has to be protected, and wasn't
flooded beyond repair, then it would behoove the powers that be to
provide a maximum show of force. Any major communication hub, today, is
a Homeland Security asset, and should be protected as such..

In the halcyon days of the cold war, often we protected these assets by
hiding them in plain sight, as (at the time) we felt that our enemies
were external. Sadly. all that has now changed, forever.  Terrorism is
bad enough to defend against, but Terrorism, combined with political
correctness of not being able to name one's enemy is even worse.  This
is the state we have now reached.

Posse Comitatus?  Sure, but I do believe it has been trumped by Homeland
Security, and the Patriot Act.  We might not like it, we might not agree
with it, but unfortunately, there it is, and for the future, it's the
best we have to protect against those who would destroy us.

As far as the Bell South Bldg, and the infrastructure which presumably
has remained intact, well. IMHO protect it with any and all force deemed
necessary, military or civilian, to prevent entry, looting, and the
inevitible vandalism which would occur if such a building were left
unguarded.  Yes, it's a sad commentary on the state of todays society,
but a true one.......

OK,  < / rant>  feel free to flame at will (huge evil grin)

Greg "GW" Moore
Cold Warrior Communicator and proud to be one ;-)

(Hot War Communicator as well --hi--)

Mike Magnus wrote:

> Then this statement from
> http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm  is
> incorrect?
>
>
> "To understand the extent to which the act has relevance today, it is
> important to understand to whom the act applies and under what
> circumstances. The statutory language of the act does not apply to all
> U.S. military forces.[2] While the act applies to the Army,
> Air Force, Navy, and Marines, including their Reserve components, it
> does not apply to the Coast Guard or to the huge military
> manpower resources of the National Guard."
>
> From: "Kenneth Coney" <superc@...>
>
>
> > Yes but the Navy is not affected by Posse Commitatus either...
>

--

Happily turning electricity into RF energy for almost 40 years,
on land, sea and air, professional and amateur,
around the clock and around the world. KEEP CW ALIVE!
Become an Elmer today!!! http://www.fists.org/
FISTS #9404

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
                                                    --Edmund Burke
Greg Moore NNN0BVN PA
U.S. Navy-Marine Corps Military Affiliate Radio System (MARS)
Official Pennsylvania Area Website:
http://pages.prodigy.net/nnn0fbk/mars.htm
Official Northeast Area Website:
http://www.navymars.org/northeast/index.htm
Navy-Marine Corps MARS: Proudly Serving Those Who Serve."
E-Mail (MARS) nnn0bvn@...
E-Mail (ARRL) wa3ivx@...
********************************************************************************\
**********************

PRESERVATIONS OFFICER: USS AMERICA (CV/CVA-66) MUSEUM FOUNDATION
Please visit us on the web at http://www.ussamerica-museumfoundation.org

SIGN OUR GUESTBOOK! KEEP HER MEMORY ALIVE!

THIS YEAR, THE FINEST CARRIER THAT EVER SAILED THE 7 SEAS WILL
BE GONE FOREVER, HER CALLSIGN NMIB (LATER NUSA) NEVER TO BE
HEARD AGAIN, NOR BE SEEN FLYING PROUDLY FLYING FROM THE HALLIARD
WHILE ENTERING OR LEAVING PORT.

SHE MAY BE SUNK, IGNOMINIOUSLY, BY THE NAVY, SANS COLORS, SANS HONORS
BUT WE, HER LOYAL CREW, AND SHIPMATES, WILL ALWAYS REMEMBER HER FOR
CARRYING US INTO HARMS WAY, AND BACK AGAIN WITH OLD GLORY FLYING AT THE
GAFF, AND WITH HONOR APLENTY.  AT LEAST WE TRIED TO SAVE YOU FOR A MUSEUM, AS
BEFITS A SHIP CARRYING THE NAME OF OUR GREAT REPUBLIC.

      BUT SOMETIMES YOU JUST CAN'T WORK MIRACLES WITH MORONS.
  THEY WOULD RATHER POLLUTE AND FOUL THE SAME OCEANS THE USS AMERICA
          OMCE SAILED HONORABLY, WITH NAVAL SPIT AND POLISH
          AND TOTAL PRIDE FROM EVERY OFFICER AND ENLISTED MAN

             NERK NERK NERK DE NMIB NMIB NMIB SK SK SK





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:


The Posse Comitatas issue is less then simple. ISTM as passed,
it applied to the Army, but NOT the Marines or obviously the
Air Force. They were later added by administrative regulation.

The Marines were exempted originally since they predated the
Continental Congress, as I recall. {Note the US Marshals also
have fewer constraints that FBI/USSS/BATF/etc by virtue of
age...}

The USCG is NOT subject; they are chartered as a LEA with arrest
power. That's why when the Navy helps nab someone at sea; there's
often a Coastie along to say the magic words.

A friend was an Army CID investigator and I don't recall how he got
his arrest power -- one trick was to swear folks in as Marshals
as well as in Army CID. I'll ask him.





--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@...
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

I don't mean to be prolonging an OT discussion, but the United States
Coast Guard is most definitely a military organization:

1) The web address of www.uscg.mil is an easy indicator.

2) The USCG FAQ at http://www.gocoastguard.com/faq.html says right at
the top: "The U.S. Coast Guard is one of five branches of the U.S.
Armed Forces..."

3) The Coast Guard falls under the Uniform Code of Military Justice
like the other services, uses the same Manual for Courts Martial as
the other services.  (10 USC A.II.47)

4) Coast Guardsmen are part of the all-service honor guard that is
present at major state functions, such as Presidential funerals.  If
you look back at the casket team during President Reagan's funeral
last year, there were 2 Soldiers, 2 Marines, 2 Airmen, 1 Sailor, and 1
Coast Guardsman on the unit.  (Sometimes there might have been 2
Sailors and 1 Airman, but there was always a Coastie there to make the
grand total of 8)

5) I seem to remember that when I was sworn in to the USMCR as I
joined the PLC OCS program that there were a bunch of future Coast
Guard members in the same bunch as I - recruits for all 5 services,
all taking the same oath...

I could go on...

Allan

--- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Coney <superc@v...> wrote:
> Complete truth.  They are a civilian LE agency under Homeland.  I
have
> no idea why someone would presume they were somehow included in
Posse
> Comitatas.
>
> Bill Smith wrote:
>
> >Isn't the Coast Guard considered NOT a military organization?
> >
> >

We are indeed off topic, but the Coast Guard is the second oldest
service.  (The US Watch or Federal Building Guards are the oldest.)  The
Coast Guard is classified as a civilian law enforcement agency in time
of peace, no matter who rents them their web portal.  For decades they
came under Transportation as did the Merchant Marine (which also comes
under Navy control in time of declared war).  These days the Coast Guard
is normally a branch of Homeland Security.  In time of declared war,
then they become part of the Navy, but they retain their powers of
arrest.  (No Posse Commitatus issue as neither the Coast Guard nor the
Navy are in that statute.)


Allan Bourdius wrote:

>I don't mean to be prolonging an OT discussion, but the United States
>Coast Guard is most definitely a military organization:
>
>1) The web address of www.uscg.mil is an easy indicator.
>
>2) The USCG FAQ at http://www.gocoastguard.com/faq.html says right at
>the top: "The U.S. Coast Guard is one of five branches of the U.S.
>Armed Forces..."
>
>3) The Coast Guard falls under the Uniform Code of Military Justice
>like the other services, uses the same Manual for Courts Martial as
>the other services.  (10 USC A.II.47)
>
>4) Coast Guardsmen are part of the all-service honor guard that is
>present at major state functions, such as Presidential funerals.  If
>you look back at the casket team during President Reagan's funeral
>last year, there were 2 Soldiers, 2 Marines, 2 Airmen, 1 Sailor, and 1
>Coast Guardsman on the unit.  (Sometimes there might have been 2
>Sailors and 1 Airman, but there was always a Coastie there to make the
>grand total of 8)
>
>5) I seem to remember that when I was sworn in to the USMCR as I
>joined the PLC OCS program that there were a bunch of future Coast
>Guard members in the same bunch as I - recruits for all 5 services,
>all taking the same oath...
>
>I could go on...
>
>Allan
>
>--- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Coney <superc@v...> wrote:
>
>
>>Complete truth.  They are a civilian LE agency under Homeland.  I
>>
>>
>have
>
>
>>no idea why someone would presume they were somehow included in
>>
>>
>Posse
>
>
>>Comitatas.
>>
>>Bill Smith wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Isn't the Coast Guard considered NOT a military organization?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

In order to have state arrest authority, investigators and flight leaders
in the Air Force were often sworn in as State Law Enforcement.

At times, the on duty investigator would have to be called in,
just to say the magic words after hours.


> A friend was an Army CID investigator and I don't recall how he got
> his arrest power -- one trick was to swear folks in as Marshals
> as well as in Army CID. I'll ask him.
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "jhaynesatalumni" <jhhaynes@...>
To: <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 12:02 PM
Subject: [coldwarcomms] Re: CIA Berlin Tunnel info


> There was also an article on this topic in the magazine (American
> Heritage of) Invention and Technology some years back.

Thanks for the lead - I looked on the magazine's archive web site:
(http://www.inventionandtechnology.com/xml/archive/archive.xml)
and found that it's in the Spring 1995 issue.  Unfortunately, the article
itself isn't online.

Albert