Search the web
Sign In
New User? Sign Up
coldwarcomms · A list dedicated to the discussion of various communications systems used by the U.S. military and civilian authorities during
? Already a member? Sign in to Yahoo!

Yahoo! Groups Tips

Did you know...
Want to share photos of your group with the world? Add a group photo to Flickr.

Best of Y! Groups

   Check them out and nominate your group.

Messages

  Messages Help
Advanced
Re: Terrorists hacking power systems [was RE: Genset from AT&T site   Message List  
Reply Message #12951 of 16361 |
Hello All:
I need to weigh in here. Address a couple points,
sorry this is not so much
comms related.
Somehow I missed "the" video, could someone point me
to it.
-I am a Chief Powerplant Operator at a mainstem
Columbia River dam, in the
northwest.
I have worked in hydro powerplants, and high voltage
switchyards for 27
years.
All large generators are protected by vsarious
protective relay schemes, and
are well protected. They are protected for many
conditions, such as loss of
excitation, generator ground, generator differential,
phase imbalance,
negative sequence current, overvoltage, and the list
goes on, in the old
days, these relays were descrete relays for each
function, but now, they are
basically microprocessors, and one box has many
functions, and the "relays"
as we still call them, have sophisticated comms
between them, and the
control systems.
It would be hard to damage a large generator from
hacking into the network,
but you could certainly casue problems if you go it,
such as opening the
spillway, or shutting down the generators.
-Not all large bulk power generators are the same,
steamers turn very fast
(3600 RPM) and depending
on head of water, and type of turbine, etc, hydro
units turn slow (100-400
RPM) so synchronizing these is very different.
I have many seen "bad shots" taken on synchrnizing on
different sizes of
hydro units, with varying results.
Anything from, the unit pulled into synchronism
(slower unit) to the
protective relays operating, and shutting the down the
unit.
I have never heard of a large generator "self
destructing" although damage
is possible, especially if the protective relays
failed, or breaker failed. You have to remember, these
large generators are
made to feed huge electrical faults,
and the breakers are made to interrupt such faults.
For the record, for
manual synchronism, we use a synchroscope,
which looks at the phase angle between the power
system "grid" and the
generator to be synchronized, we can determine
if the generator is too fast or slow, and when the
moment of synchronism
occurs, that is when you close the breaker.
This happens in a nice controlled operation, no
slamming, or banging, if it
is accomplished correctly.
There is a noise that occurs on a shot that is not
right on, can it can be
anything from a thump sound, to a heightened buzzing
(transformer type hum)
from the stator, I believe this is from the slight
physical movement of the
coils, it quiets down after the generator is warmed
up.
We also have an automatic synchronizer, it can produce
various quality of
synchronism.
And, yes, even in a hydro plant, we have "pre heated"
diesel generators
sets, both for the spillway, and for the powerhouse.
-In the Northwest, we have a lot of generation, and in
the Southwest, they
have a lot of load, the "normal" flow of power is from
the
North to South, along the west coast, if that tie
separates, we in the
Northwest are left with a large excess of generation,
and, there is a remedial action scheme, which includes
tripping large
generators off line, and (I am not kidding) a very
large load bank
(read giant resistor here) that switches in for just
long enough to help
brake the system, and then switches out before it over
heats, it is
nicknamed the "toaster". So, yes, it exists.
- As far as comms go, I do know our "computer
engineers" both for the
security system, and the plant control system, and
power system control
computers, can get in from home, over the public
network, and that access is
"deeper" that my access running the plant. Not sure of
the security but,
there is also a modem that can be called over a public
phone line, so the
manufacturer can get in if needed.
I feel we are lacking on security, and it would be
easy to get in if you
wanted to.
-Plant physical security is better than before 9-11,
but it is still
horrible, you can "tag in" or follow someone in
through a security gate, and
we have so
many contractors working on site, that anyone could
walk in or out, and no
one would notice, how could we?
-OK, this is way to long, sorry.




________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping




Sat Mar 1, 2008 6:40 pm

kempericmarc
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email

Message #12951 of 16361 |
Expand Messages Author Sort by Date

Hello All: I need to weigh in here. Address a couple points, sorry this is not so much comms related. Somehow I missed "the" video, could someone point me to...
Rob !
kempericmarc
Offline Send Email
Mar 1, 2008
7:30 pm

... Nope, it could have kept going as far as I'm concerned. Thank you. Frank...
Frank H
f_helton
Offline Send Email
Mar 1, 2008
8:06 pm

I agree! Please continue. While this list is primarily comms related, we tend to be major infrastructure geeks here, and enjoy learning about other 'behind...
Mike Cowen
trippindiculuar
Offline Send Email
Mar 1, 2008
8:59 pm

Sabotage of infrastructure is a continuing concern, as in the Cold War so now. While separate mail lists for each type of infrastructure provides opportunities...
John Young
johny8766
Offline Send Email
Mar 2, 2008
11:29 pm

Is it me, or has coldwarcomms suddenly become the Edison Institute? Is the groups about Cold War communications or electric energy?...
paul rosa
bluemoon25425
Offline Send Email
Mar 1, 2008
10:49 pm

Its all interesting, if theres any coldwarcoms material by all mens post it. Otherwise, "I" find it interesting.... ... [Non-text portions of this message have...
blitz
blitz@...
Send Email
Mar 2, 2008
12:30 am

Much like telecom, the electric power industry has a fascinating and colorful history. And also like telecom, much of your past is in danger of being lost. ...
Albert LaFrance
albert_lafrance
Offline Send Email
Mar 2, 2008
2:21 am

... post it. ... I too find it interesting, if there were no electricity supply there would be no communications -- Bruce Fletcher Stronsay, Orkney ...
Bruce Fletcher
bruce5246
Offline Send Email
Mar 2, 2008
8:38 pm

This article discusses the possible role of Chinese hackers in the August 2003 northeast and February 2008 south Florida power blackouts: ...
Albert LaFrance
albert_lafrance
Offline Send Email
May 30, 2008
1:03 am

In the article, I read with interest: "There has never been an official U.S. government assertion of Chinese involvement in the outage, but intelligence and...
Sheldon Daitch
sheldondaitch
Offline Send Email
May 31, 2008
7:49 am

Infrastructure systems are will remain vulnerable to the Internet until the old and young farts who operate them remain clueless about telecommunications. Many...
John Young
johny8766
Offline Send Email
May 31, 2008
11:41 am

How many critical systems use two-tone or DTMF switching in this day and age? FAR too many in my experience. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been...
blitz
blitz@...
Send Email
May 31, 2008
6:18 pm

... The people I asked think Kevin <http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/05/did-hackers-cau.htmla> is far more credible on this. They've read the whole report...
David Lesher
wb8foz@...
Send Email
May 31, 2008
1:22 pm

I thought that information was pretty cool. I think most of us like to know how things just work (or end up not working). Hey, without power, there would be no...
Pj
packy41
Online Now Send Email
Mar 2, 2008
3:04 am

This is interesting but what does this have to do with the Cold War Communications? The Cold War was a battle between democratic and communist super-powers...
mstangelo@...
n2msqrp
Offline Send Email
Mar 2, 2008
10:48 pm

Actually, you've raised an interesting question: did asymmetric warfare operations play a role in the Cold War? Although both sides maintained large...
Albert LaFrance
albert_lafrance
Offline Send Email
Mar 4, 2008
3:56 pm

May I add something which may complicate this discussion? I would be interested if it has relevance. There is a significant difference between two segments of...
james kester
radioconstco
Offline Send Email
Mar 4, 2008
1:34 pm

Actually, you've raised an interesting question: did asymmetric warfare operations play a role in the Cold War? Although both sides maintained large...
Albert LaFrance
albert_lafrance
Offline Send Email
Mar 4, 2008
3:56 pm

I seem to recall a story of Soviet attempts to stash explosives just across our border with Canada for use against our power and comms. networks. Does anyone...
Jim Browne
maverickguy117a
Offline Send Email
Mar 4, 2008
4:20 pm
Advanced

Copyright © 2010 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy - Terms of Service - Guidelines - Help