At 09:27 AM 10/17/98 , Curtis wrote:

>p. 103:  "The door was not behind Simon; it was Simon."  I’m thinking this
>is like a perverse image of James 5:9 "Behold, the judge standeth before the
>door."

Or of Jesus' " . . . I am the door of the sheep. . . .  I am the door: by
me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and
find pasture."  (Mk 10:7-9)  And also, perhaps, "I am the way, the truth,
and the life."

>p. 107:  "A curious flatness was in his voice.  . . .  Wise readers of verse
>do their best to submit their voices to the verse."  Simon does the reverse
>by submitting the verse to his voice.  He doesn’t respect the autonomy of
>the Word, but tries to make it into a thing of his own.  Only if someone
>loves something can they allow it its own proper identity.

The Word is creative.  Simon's art seeks to reverse that; he will
ultimately attempt to use his reversal of words -- and THE word
(Tetragrammaton) -- to UNcreate.

>p. 113:  "The secret and crafty appeal to every individual who came to him.
>. . :  "You are different; you are not under the law; you are particular."
>We have already seen an example of Simon using this technique to attempt to
>tempt Jonathan.  Probably the serpent whispered something similar to Eve.
>
One of the ultimate temptations, if not THE temptation.  The law is good --
but it needn't apply to you because YOU are special, or to this particular
situation because of special circumstances; the law is necessary for all
those ordinary people and for ordinary circumstances.

Sounds like the sort of thing we're hearing dozens of times a day on TV,
doesn't it?  "Yes . . . but he's a special person . . . and it was ONLY
about . . ."

Gary+
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At 09:25 AM 10/17/98 , Curtis Perrin wrote:

>
>p. 89:  "It was not the dead, as she had thought, it was the living who
>dwelled in those tunnels of earth."  Huh??
>
I think that those who hide in the tunnels are those who are hangers-on,
those who are afraid to move on, those who are bound to this meager stage
of existence by things they have not yet dealt with -- and possibly won't.
You mentioned earlier that this place seems to be a sort of purgatory.  And
those who hide in the tunnels of the earth are those who have so far
refused to be purged.  I think "dead", by the way, refers not to those who
are physically dead, as Lester is, but those who are spiritually dead, or
very nearly so.

Afraid of the light, they hide in the dark.

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At 05:24 PM 10/17/98 , Dave wrote:
>Curtis writes:
>
>>p. 53:  "Benedicta sit, et benedicti omnes parvuli Tui."  Blessed is she,
>>and blessed are all those small ones among You.  I do not believe this is
>>from the Vulgate.  Source?
>
>I thought it might be Luke 1:42 ('and blessed is the fruit of thy womb')
>but nay. A tough one.

From the context, I'd guess that it's a canticle from one of the monastic
hours, the one that's said at midnight.


>>p. 65:  Joseph ben David:  Any ideas who on earth this might be!?
>
>Don't know- Some Jewish apocalyptic expects 'the Messiah of Joseph' and 'the
>Messiah of David' (two messiahs, or at least two roles), I think. Maybe
>there's some connection buried in there.
>
This is Joseph (descendant of King David) the husband of the Virgin Mary,
whom Williams casts here as a sorcerer like The Clerk (see my previoius
message for a little more on this).

But I see that Darren beat me to it; I read his response after writing the
above.

Gary+
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At 12:59 PM 10/11/98 , Dave wrote:
>More responsa to CMP.
>>Simon Leclerc/Simon the Clerk/Father Simon:  Does anyone see any historical
>>allusions in this name?
>
>'Simon' is rich in allusion. 'Leclerc' I don't know what to make of. A
>priest, a writer? Certainly not an accountant....

Clergyman, priest . . . he obviously preaches, teaches, and "heals".
Called "Father" as priests normally are.  He would appear to be a parody of
a Christian clergyman -- almost the opposite of one.  He is called "The
Clerk"; however, "clerk" derives from "cleric", and gradually came to mean
anyone (clergy or lay) who was educated enough to read and write.  I tend
to translate "The Clerk" into "The Cleric" as I read.

Note in the narrative at the end of Chapter 3  that Simon appears to be
'the AntiChrist'.  "...this also which was to happen had at last happened.
Jew and Christian alike had waited for the man who now walked through the
empty London streets."  ..."Only a Jew could utter the Jewish, which was
the final, word of power."  Simon's three selves remind me of the dragon,
the beast, and the false prophet of Revelations chapters 12-20; and also a
parody of the Trinity.

And note the reference to Joseph, husband of the Virgin Mary:  "Once . . .
the attempt of domination [of the world of the dead] had been made and
failed.  The sorcerer who had attempted it had also been a Jew, a
descendant of the house of David, who clothed in angelic brilliance had
compelled a woman of the same house to utter the Name , and something more
than mortal had been born.  But in the end the operation had failed.  Of
the end of the sorcerer himself there were no records; Joseph ben David had
vanished.  The living thing that had been born of his [SIMON'S!!!]
counterpart had perisned miserably.  It had been two thousand years before
anyone had dared to risk the attempt again."  The Virgin Mary is Simon's
counterpart (because of pronouncing the name?).

Also, Simon is ancient.  He was a boy during the French Revolution (1789?);
he tells Jonathan, "No one has painted me so well for a hundred years."

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>>p. 89:  "It was not the dead, as she had thought, it was the living who
>>dwelled in those tunnels of earth."  Huh??
>
>Either she is seeing through the perspective of damnation- perhaps like
>Simon- since she is here so close to it- or it is the realization that
>eternal life (of the damned or blessed) has a reality of its own. Not clear
>from the text.


Thanks Dave, this seems to explain it rather well.


>>p. 94:  "She [Lester] exclaimed, with the fervent habit of her mortality:
>>"Hell!"  The word ran from her in all directions, as if a dozen small
>>animals had been released."  Pandora’s box opened?  What exactly do the
>rest
>>of us think has happened here??
>
>Is it the dawning of her consciousness that Hell is walking distance from
>here, and not 'merely a word'. ?

I think you're right, but what are these animals??

C.M.P.
cmperrin@...


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Thanks Darren!

C.M.P.
cmperrin@...


-----Original Message-----
From: Darren L. Slider <dlslider@...>
To: coinherence-l@egroups.com <coinherence-l@egroups.com>
Date: Saturday, October 17, 1998 6:45 PM
Subject: [coinherence-l] Re: AHE Chapter 3--Commentary


>
>Curtis wrote:
>
>>p. 65:  Joseph ben David:  Any ideas who on earth this might be!?
>
>This is St. Joseph. This passage is in Simon's (twisted) point of view, and
>it represents the Incarnation and Passion of Messias as a failed
>necromantic operation:
>
>"Once, as he [Simon] had learned the tale, the attempt at domination [of
>the world of the dead] had been made and failed. The sorcerer [St. Joseph]
>who had attempted it had also been a Jew, a descendant of the house of
>David, who clothed in angelic brilliance [the Annunciation] had compelled a
>woman of the same house [Mary] to utter the Name [YHWH], and something more
>than mortal had been born [Messias]. But in the end the operation had
>failed. Of the end of the sorcerer himself there were no records; Joseph
>ben David had vanished. The living thing that had been born of his feminine
>counterpart had perished miserably [the Crucifixion]. It had been two
>thousand years before anyone [Simon] had dared to risk the attempt [Betty]
>again."
>
>Compare what Williams says under the author's point of view on p. 62:
>
>"It had been a Jewish girl who, at the command of the Voice which sounded
>in her ears, in her heart, along her blood, and through the central cells
>of her body, had uttered everywhere in herself the perfect Tetragrammaton.
>. . . she uttered the Word and the Word became flesh in her."
>
>Dancing with the Fool,
>
>Darren
>
>
>
>     _Regnum celorum_ [the kingdom of heaven] suffers violence
>from ardent love and living hope, for these
>can be the conquerors of Heaven's Will;
>     yet not as man defeats another man:
>the Will of God is won because It would
>be won and, won, wins through benevolence.
>                                          --Dante, _Paradiso_, XX
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Curtis wrote:

>p. 65:  Joseph ben David:  Any ideas who on earth this might be!?

This is St. Joseph. This passage is in Simon's (twisted) point of view, and
it represents the Incarnation and Passion of Messias as a failed
necromantic operation:

"Once, as he [Simon] had learned the tale, the attempt at domination [of
the world of the dead] had been made and failed. The sorcerer [St. Joseph]
who had attempted it had also been a Jew, a descendant of the house of
David, who clothed in angelic brilliance [the Annunciation] had compelled a
woman of the same house [Mary] to utter the Name [YHWH], and something more
than mortal had been born [Messias]. But in the end the operation had
failed. Of the end of the sorcerer himself there were no records; Joseph
ben David had vanished. The living thing that had been born of his feminine
counterpart had perished miserably [the Crucifixion]. It had been two
thousand years before anyone [Simon] had dared to risk the attempt [Betty]
again."

Compare what Williams says under the author's point of view on p. 62:

"It had been a Jewish girl who, at the command of the Voice which sounded
in her ears, in her heart, along her blood, and through the central cells
of her body, had uttered everywhere in herself the perfect Tetragrammaton.
. . . she uttered the Word and the Word became flesh in her."

Dancing with the Fool,

Darren



      _Regnum celorum_ [the kingdom of heaven] suffers violence
from ardent love and living hope, for these
can be the conquerors of Heaven's Will;
      yet not as man defeats another man:
the Will of God is won because It would
be won and, won, wins through benevolence.
                                           --Dante, _Paradiso_, XX
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Curtis writes,

>p. 96:  Quotes:  "The long habit of living indisposeth us for dying."

Thomas Browne.

>p. 103:  "The door was not behind Simon; it was Simon."  I’m thinking this
>is like a perverse image of James 5:9 "Behold, the judge standeth before
the
>door."

Oppositionally, John 10:7-9. But a stretch, if so.


>p. 109:  "He would send one to that world.  He would have thus a double
>magical link with infinity."  The old Jewish literature stressed the
>importance of a maintaining a strict ratio between the living and the dead.
>We begin to get a sense of Simon’s plans for Betty.
>
>p. 110:  "his triplicity"  What a shocking idea, and what a fascinating
>word!  A sort of mockery of the Trinity.
>
>p. 113:  "The secret and crafty appeal to every individual who came to him.
>. . :  "You are different; you are not under the law; you are particular."
>We have already seen an example of Simon using this technique to attempt to
>tempt Jonathan.  Probably the serpent whispered something similar to Eve.
>
>p. 115:  "precincts of infinity"  Like "precincts of felicity" that we saw
>earlier.  The language is purely beautiful.
>
>p. 115:  "He was again himself—‘a poor thing but his own.’"  I suppose
>something is being quoted here, but I don’t know what.  Wordsworth or
Blake?
>
>p. 116:  "Something truly obscene was there.  He saw visibly before him,
the
>breach of spiritual law."  This is the whole point:  what Simon is doing is
>"unnatural" in ALL the senses.


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Curtis writes,

>p. 77:  "Enoch, Elijah, and the Lady"  I guess the Lady is Mary?

Yes, I think so. Mary (Jesus's Mother) is thought by Roman Catholics (Dante,
for one) to have not suffered the penalties of origjnal sin, including
death. So, the triad here makes sense.


>p. 89:  "It was not the dead, as she had thought, it was the living who
>dwelled in those tunnels of earth."  Huh??

Either she is seeing through the perspective of damnation- perhaps like
Simon- since she is here so close to it- or it is the realization that
eternal life (of the damned or blessed) has a reality of its own. Not clear
from the text.

>What is the power?  My guess:  love.  We learn this a few sentences on:
>"She was not yet so [i.e. not yet damned totally]; no she was not yet
there;
>she was in the streets and . . . *knew the calls of love.*"  This voice is
>calling, heralding, the power of love.

The novel includes much meditation on Love, wouldn't you agree? 'Love' and
'Peace' are the words always on Simon's lips- Lester and Betty need both,
yet Simon would not provide them. Another passage from the Vulgate seems to
speak to our friend Simon: "vae vobis scribae et Pharisaei hypocritae quia
similes estis sepulchris dealbatis quae a foris parent hominibus speciosa
intus vero plena sunt ossibus mortuorum et omni spurcitia" (Matthew 23:27)


>p. 91:  "She had stamped on the pavement and (as in the old tales) the
>inhabitants of the place sprang at once into being."  Anybody know the old
>tale?

A good one, but new to me.

>p. 94:  "She [Lester] exclaimed, with the fervent habit of her mortality:
>"Hell!"  The word ran from her in all directions, as if a dozen small
>animals had been released."  Pandora’s box opened?  What exactly do the
rest
>of us think has happened here??

Is it the dawning of her consciousness that Hell is walking distance from
here, and not 'merely a word'. ?

Dave

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Curtis writes:

>p. 53:  "Benedicta sit, et benedicti omnes parvuli Tui."  Blessed is she,
>and blessed are all those small ones among You.  I do not believe this is
>from the Vulgate.  Source?

I thought it might be Luke 1:42 ('and blessed is the fruit of thy womb')
but nay. A tough one.

>p. 60:  "The Clerk looked and flinched."  When he sees the "light" of
>Jonathan’s painting of London Simon can’t stand it.  It’s like a vampire
>being exposed to sunlight.

Good call.

>p. 65:  Joseph ben David:  Any ideas who on earth this might be!?

Don't know- Some Jewish apocalyptic expects 'the Messiah of Joseph' and 'the
Messiah of David' (two messiahs, or at least two roles), I think. Maybe
there's some connection buried in there.



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Hi!  Hope everyone's having a good weekend.  AHE is getting pretty exciting.
I hadn't read this one in several years, and I forgot lots of what happened.
Here are my ideas on Ch. 5:

Chapter 5.

p. 96:  Quotes:  "Aunt Rachel can’t live much longer—" "The long habit of
living indisposeth us for dying." "But she is dead, she’s dead."  It would
be interesting to know the sources for these.

p. 99:  "Luxuriating. . . in the thought."  This comes from a description of
Richard learning to be content with the memory of Lester.  It is interesting
because it is an "early" moment in his thought, and it parallels what
Williams thought of the "early moment" in Shakespeare’s thought, that in his
early plays he was "enjoying himself," "luxuriating" in the powers of his
mind.  See, *English Poetic Mind* Chap. 3.  This was before Shakespeare’s
mind was confronted with opposition, crisis.  So I wonder if Richard is
being set up to have some type of crisis out of which a new consciousness
may grow.

p. 100:  "We all carry this mark in our bodies."  The mark of the beast.
Think of:   "And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free
and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:  And
that no man might buy or sell, save that he had the mark, or the name of the
beast, or the number of his name."  Rev. 13:16-17.

p. 103:  "sense of sovereignty"  Yes, I guess one could sense this even
before a lord of darkness.

p. 103:  "The door was not behind Simon; it was Simon."  I’m thinking this
is like a perverse image of James 5:9 "Behold, the judge standeth before the
door."

p. 106:  "He knew the derivation of the word ‘Clerk’"  As it says the
original Greek meant ‘inheritance.’  It comes out of an allusion to Deut
18:2 "The Lord is their inheritance."  Thus the original clerks (clerics)
were the ones who ‘inherited’ the tradition of the Lord and passed it along
to others through preaching.  Simon seems to want to "re-inherit" the
tradition back to himself—he draws back all the words that were originally
promulgated and then tries to re-issue them to serve his own desires.

p. 107:  "A curious flatness was in his voice.  . . .  Wise readers of verse
do their best to submit their voices to the verse."  Simon does the reverse
by submitting the verse to his voice.  He doesn’t respect the autonomy of
the Word, but tries to make it into a thing of his own.  Only if someone
loves something can they allow it its own proper identity.

p. 107:  "Man’s art is perhaps worth little in the end, but it is at least
worth its own present communication." It is the answer to all those who ask,
"Why do anything if all that really matters is God?"

p. 108:  "The secret school in which he had grown up had studied to extend
their power over vocal sounds."  "But there were sounds that had a much
greater spell, sounds that could control not only the living but the dead."
"Great pronouncements had established creation in its order; the reversal of
those pronouncements could reverse the order."  We get a better sense of
what Simon’s plan is.  He wants to utter the reversed Tetragrammaton.  This
is the "unpronounceable name of God" that was uttered at the creation as the
Word.  By saying it backwards Simon hopes to gain some power.  This
tradition comes partly out of Cabalistic literature, to which Williams may
have been exposed during his time with the Golden Dawn.

p. 109:  "He would send one to that world.  He would have thus a double
magical link with infinity."  The old Jewish literature stressed the
importance of a maintaining a strict ratio between the living and the dead.
We begin to get a sense of Simon’s plans for Betty.

p. 110:  "his triplicity"  What a shocking idea, and what a fascinating
word!  A sort of mockery of the Trinity.

p. 113:  "The secret and crafty appeal to every individual who came to him.
. . :  "You are different; you are not under the law; you are particular."
We have already seen an example of Simon using this technique to attempt to
tempt Jonathan.  Probably the serpent whispered something similar to Eve.

p. 115:  "precincts of infinity"  Like "precincts of felicity" that we saw
earlier.  The language is purely beautiful.

p. 115:  "He was again himself—‘a poor thing but his own.’"  I suppose
something is being quoted here, but I don’t know what.  Wordsworth or Blake?

p. 116:  "Something truly obscene was there.  He saw visibly before him, the
breach of spiritual law."  This is the whole point:  what Simon is doing is
"unnatural" in ALL the senses.

C.M.P.
cmperrin@...


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Thoughts on Ch. 4:

Chapter 4.

p. 74:  "He wished her to be an instrument only."  Another instance of Simon
’s contempt for his followers.

p. 74:  "He was unique; yet he was no more than any man—only raised to a
high power and loosed in himself."  Simon is nothing special.  He has
maximised his potential as a human though.  Too bad he uses it for such
creepy purposes!

p. 77:  "It is ours and not ours, for men and women were never meant to
dwell there long."  This "place" is some sort of Limbo or Purgatory.  It
straddles the fence between the "reality" of the living and the "reality" of
the dead.  People who are "in this place" get the double perspective of the
living *and* the dead simultaneously.  It’s like living in an image.  Images
give the double perspective between the object and the idea simultaneously.

p. 77:  "Enoch, Elijah, and the Lady"  I guess the Lady is Mary?

p. 78:  "Lester’s and Evelyn’s flesh no longer waited for them so; they had
to find another way to the reintegration of the great identity of the flesh
and soul."  i.e. at the Day of Judgement when the souls of the dead will
reclaim their bodies.  My English teacher used to say this was a good reason
not to be cremated:  otherwise on the Day of Reckoning you’d have to be
running around pulling all your ashes back together!!

p. 83:  "She had moved on into the thing happening, for here all things were
happening at once.  These were the precincts of felicity."  Precincts of
felicity is beautiful.  Also the idea:  all times exist simultaneously here
in this city.

p. 84:  "Neither she nor anyone could have guessed why or how he had been
permitted that understanding of a thing he had never known in itself."  I
guess certain people must be vouchsafed with visionary powers.
  p. 85:  "That shop had for a moment seemed less like a façade and more like
a shop.  It had held the sort of thing that had once concerned her—not only
for her own convenience, . . . but for a pleasure in its own neatness and
effectiveness."  It seems that in this "twilight" world, the more respect
Lester has for "things in their own sake" (and less as "things for Her
sake") the more real they become.  The less she considers things "in
relation to herself" the more they take on a reality that is more Real.
This is the power of love, that does not consider things in relation to
itself, but looks at things as they ARE.

p. 88:  "It was a human voice . . . crying high in the silence."  *Vox
clamantis in deserto.*  "The voice of one crying in the wilderness."

p. 88:  "She was dying further.  She could not call; presently she would not
be able to speak."  Why is this happening to her?  I don’t think we’re meant
to think that "dying further" is a good thing for Lester.  There is Death
which leads to something and death (Simon’s type) that leads to nothingness.
I think the "dying further" is leading towards nothingness—as we see in the
next paragraph, the dying further is "yielding" to being damned.  But even
in Death (as opposed to "death"), it appears in this novel, there is
"something" toward which one progresses.  Lester has to find out what that
thing is.  She has to learn to cry out, learn the words, maybe learn the
Word.

p. 89:  "It was not the dead, as she had thought, it was the living who
dwelled in those tunnels of earth."  Huh??

p. 89:  "That she was she, damned; yes, and she was damned; she, being that,
was damned.  There was no help, unless she could be something other, and
there was no power in her to be anything other.  As she stood in a trance of
horror at herself or at hell, or at both, being one, a word pierced her
brain.  The word was "Jonathan!"  The far voice was calling:  "Jonathan.""
There is some power that Lester can find in herself to pull away from this
damnation, but she has to learn what that power is.  She cannot find it in
herself, but in this "call" she does seem to find a way towards it.  It is
like the "call" of John the Baptist:  a voice ringing out in the wilderness.
And certainly the character cannot have been named "Jon"athan by accident.
What is the power?  My guess:  love.  We learn this a few sentences on:
"She was not yet so [i.e. not yet damned totally]; no she was not yet there;
she was in the streets and . . . *knew the calls of love.*"  This voice is
calling, heralding, the power of love.

p. 91:  "She had stamped on the pavement and (as in the old tales) the
inhabitants of the place sprang at once into being."  Anybody know the old
tale?

p. 94:  "She [Lester] exclaimed, with the fervent habit of her mortality:
"Hell!"  The word ran from her in all directions, as if a dozen small
animals had been released."  Pandora’s box opened?  What exactly do the rest
of us think has happened here??

C.M.P.
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Here are some thoughts on Chapter 3:

p. 51:  "It was still worth while trying to save Betty and the picture too."
Maybe Jonathan has to set his priorities!

p. 51:  Jonathan’s surname is Drayton:  another Elizabethan name, this time
from the poet Michael Drayton.

p. 53:  "Benedicta sit, et benedicti omnes parvuli Tui."  Blessed is she,
and blessed are all those small ones among You.  I do not believe this is
from the Vulgate.  Source?

p. 57:  Simon:  "No one has painted me as well for a hundred years.
Everything’s there."  Quite a difference from Lady Wallingford’s reaction to
the same painting!  Simon seems pleased that Jonathan has captured his
less-than-flattering aspects in the painting.

p. 57:  Simon:  "And as for the imbecile, haven’t you read *Sapientia adepti
stultitia mundi?*?"  The wise man’s knowledge is the world’s stupidity.  I
have no idea where this quote comes from, not the Vulgate though.

p. 57:  Simon:  "It’s quite good for them to be hypnotised; they’re much
happier.  But you—you are different; you are a genius."  Simon doesn’t have
much respect for his followers.  He also tries to win Jonathan’s trust by
treating him as someone "special."

p. 58:  "The Doctrine is good for them."  Simon seems to write off doctrine
and "following the rules" as something for "little people."  He believes
himself to be subject to something "higher."  He tries to win Jonathan to
this disrespect for authority by feeding him with the vision of "great art."
He says, "Great art is apostolic."  As if art is not subject to the rules by
which generally people live, but lives by a law of its own.  A highly
romantic theory of art.  Jonathan is slightly swayed by the passionate idea
of this, but also his common sense tells him that there is great merit in
Joshua Reynolds’ "common observation and plain understanding."

p. 60:  "The Clerk looked and flinched."  When he sees the "light" of
Jonathan’s painting of London Simon can’t stand it.  It’s like a vampire
being exposed to sunlight.

p. 60:  "The Clerk said, ‘That is because you do not quite understand the
meaning of your own work.  This is a dream; that other is a fact.’"  In
fact, it’s quite the opposite.  The light in the London painting is the only
true reality, but Simon is trying to seduce Jonathan into believing a dream.

p. 60:  Simon:  "I shall give all these little people peace because they
believe in me."  Simon’s plan for saving the people doesn’t leave much room
for their own free will!

p. 62:  "when that End had been born…"  The "End" being referred to is
Christ.

p. 62:  "it had been a Jewish girl…"  i.e. Mary

p. 62:  "Redeemed from all division in herself."  Superb way of describing
the immaculate conception.

p. 62:  Jew of Tarsus:  i.e. Paul

p. 62-3:  "Till at last there rose in Europe something which was neither,
and set itself to destroy both."  Hitler??

p. 63:  "Jew and Christian alike had waited for the man who now walked
through the empty London streets."  The Messiah of the Jews, and the Second
Coming for the Christians.  But, of course, Simon is neither!

p. 63:  "He had been born in Paris in one of those hiding places of
necromancy…"  Sounds curiously like the Comte de Saint Germain, the
occultist and alchemist who reputedly rendered himself immortal.

p. 64:  "He was not, in fact, much different from any other man, but the
possibilities slowly opened to him were more rare."  He is not an angel or a
supernatural being but a human who has realised how to capitalise on certain
"latent" qualities that all humans have but few actualise.

p. 65:  Joseph ben David:  Any ideas who on earth this might be!?

C.M.P.
cmperrin@...




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Betty is not merely the quintessential victim.  She also is unformed,
awaiting opportunity to become a full person.  Williams is interested in the
development of characters either from partial persons into full persons in
Salvation or from full persons into empty parodies of persons through desires
of Evil.  Betty and Lester both become full persons through their giving to
each other.  Meanwhile we watch other characters, Evelyn in particular,
degenerate into vain repetitions of malice and self-pity.  I think Betty is
the emptiest of Williams characters who becomes a full person in the course of
one of his novels, a mere shadow of those who control her.
Jim Miller
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Hi. A few short notes on some matters from chap 3 (Clerk SImon), chap. 4
(The Dream) and chap. 5 (The Hall by Holborn)

Simon: certainly an impressive character. He *does* recall Considine, to
anyone who has read the earlier book, I think. On a superficial comparison:
both are extraordinarily long-lived, both tell a tale of discovering their
powers, both attract followers.

Betty: Lewis referred to her once as a quintessential 'victim'. Like a lamb
to the slaughter? Here is someone whose whole life has been brought about
simply as a means to achieve some end. She is depicted - so well that its
painful to read- as a used and abused young woman. 'Lack of self-esteem'
indeed! The Betty/Bettina bit I thought an exceptionally nasty touch- It's
almost like what people tell of kinky B&D fetishism- except that Betty has
no 'out' clause, no safeword. Her predictament is completely nonconsensual.

Her relations with Evelyn and Lester range from tenuous-but-negative to
tenuous-but-neutral. This is highlighted in the next chapter (to Lester's
shame).

Richard: he is still searching for he knows not what. We learn in a few
pages that Simon is trying to manipulate his longings.  Extra-textual aside:
In Insomnia by S. King (which I just finished skimming), the main character
is slowly - but per necessitas- brought up up into perception of a
hyper-reality; that is the case here, too, I think.

Dave






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-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Zbaraschuk <tzbarasc@...>


>Most obviously, to Simon Magus, who in addition to his one brief
>appearance in the book of Acts, had rather a career in the
>apocryphal literature.

This is an excellent point!  I'm sorry not to have seen it myself.  I found
a wealth of information on Simon Magus at the following website:

http://www1.mhv.net/~mgraffam/rel/kabbalah/golem/simon.info.html

Curtis Perrin
cmperrin@...


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More responsa to CMP.

>Simon Leclerc/Simon the Clerk/Father Simon:  Does anyone see any historical
>allusions in this name?

'Simon' is rich in allusion. 'Leclerc' I don't know what to make of. A
priest, a writer? Certainly not an accountant....

>Light is an image (in this novel) for the Absolute, the essence of Being.
Light
>is the positive quality of which all the creation is manifested.

Yes, I think you are on to something. The quality of the light in London of
the Dead might also signify- dim (does he call it gray anywhere?) and
intermittent.

>  I wonder if an
>opposition is being set up here between those who are attracted to pure
>spirit (light) and those who look for light to be created into things.

Another interesting idea. It would be linking the physics of light (space is
dark until visible radiation reflects on something) to incarnational
theology. "Omni sunt, sunt lumnia" (John Scotus Eriugena, glossing on
Genesis).

> I think what we’re seeing
>is that Simon is this "mass of dullness" because he doesn’t reflect the
>"light" that before was alluded to as something absolute.

Yes- also that Simon may be hiding something, imperfectly well to Jon.'s
eyes.

>Similarly there are two Londons, the London of the
>living and the London of the dead.  Like the two cities from Augustine.

I'm not sure. Dante's two cities were physically and spiritually separated;
Augustine's were co-mingled in time and space, but separate in salvation
history.

>p. 44:  "Metamorphosis was still in them."  He’s talking about the
>beetle-people.  Had Williams read Kafka?  Whatever the case it’s an
>interesting parallel, both authors talking about transformations.

Unknown. Amusing if intended. A good research question.

>p. 46:  "It occurred to him then that he had on the whole been in the habit
>of thinking of Lester only in relation to himself.  He saw suddenly in her
>the power that waited for use."  Richard for the first time sees Lester in
>her "quiddity", as a real and whole person existing apart from himself.
>This is the way Dante was struck by Beatrice.  This is the Dantean
>experience of the image (here a woman) as an "exterior, objective fact"

A profound truth: we learn from the *loss* of a loved one, too. "Pain is
Go'd megaphone to rouse a death world." (CSL).

Dave

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Hello. Curtis makes some excellent points; so, instead of getting right to
my homework this morning <sigh>, I'm going to respond. (Believe me, this is
much more enjoyable than Statistics! ;-) )

Apropos of the October 31 date:

>It will be interesting to consider why Williams chose to set the action of
>this book around this particular date.

I wonder if the conjunction of this folk belief and the Xtian celebration is
the draw: the goblins are cheek-by-jowl with the saints, separated only by a
few strokes of a clock (and salvation). The worlds of the damned and the
saved are closer than we know. Only a guess; we'll see.


>Evelyn:  Evelyn Underhill, Anglican writer on mysticism, was a close friend
>and important influence on Williams.  He edited her letters for publication
>at around the same time AHE was being written.  She could be the source for
>the name.

Yes, but. Evelyn in the book doesn't come anywhere near the sort of person
Evelyn U. projects in her works. However, in-jokes must not be ruled out-
not from anyone who read Eliot!

>p. 3:  "A silence that she [Lester] did not know, so that if she yielded to
>the silence she would not know those other things."  I think what is
>important here is the concept of yielding to this force that is greater
than
>Lester.  It is interesting to note that many theories of ghosts say they
are
>the souls of people who are unwilling to "yield" to death.  But I don’t
>think that’s what’s going on with Lester.  But what is this thing that she
>might "yield" herself to?  Nothingness?  Rest?  I’m not sure, but I think
we
>should keep this in mind while reading the book.

I found this line striking as well. But, whether we call it "unfinished
business" (a la 'Casper, the Movie') or whatyou will, Lester is,
inarticulately and ignorantly, not ready to go on. A good seeding of future
plot, I expect.

>p. 19:  "Evelyn had failed again."  Does anybody else think this is a typo
>that should read "Wailed" instead?  Remember, Evelyn *was* crying out in
the
>paragraph before.

Wailed would work, although a little clumsy in the sentence. I think these
MS were handwritten. -w- vs. -f- at the beginning of a word is usually hard
to mistake, however, even in my convulsive screed. ;-)

>Those are usually treated by other writers as occasions to
>gush with romanticism, but Williams attempts to analyse the *romantic
>experience* with almost classical precision.

Excellent point- I think that part of the appeal Eliot is pointing to is
that CW makes it sound sensible- something a normal person might experience-
where even great mystical writers sometimes seem to be talking about
well-lit fogbanks and a fuzzy feeling in their chest.

Dave

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Curtis Perrin wrote:
> Simon Leclerc/Simon the Clerk/Father Simon:  Does anyone see any historical
> allusions in this name?

Most obviously, to Simon Magus, who in addition to his one brief
appearance in the book of Acts, had rather a career in the
apocryphal literature.  Incidentally he had the sin of simony
(buying church office) named after him.

I don't see simony (other than in the general sense of Simon the
Clerk attempting to obtain something by 'illegitimate' means)
as being a major factor here.

In the Clementine Recognitions (a pseudo-apostolic work featuring
the adventures of Simon Magus in Rome and his final downfall at
the hands of Simon Peter, when Simon Magus tried to fly over the
city of Rome and fell to his death when the prayers of the saint
drove away the demons supporting him), Simon Magus is said to
have been accompanied by a woman named Helena, from whom he
derived his inspiration and whom he described as Sophia (possibly
the Gnostic wisdom mother figure.)  There's a faint echo of
this in Simon the Clerk's relationship with Betty (though Helena
seems to have been a much more active figure.)

Finally, Simon Magus is also described by Irenaus as the founder of
Gnosticism; this may be the closest connection with Williams'
Simon the Clerk, who tries to obtain knowledge/gnosis without
the necessity of love.


Tony Z

Here are my ideas and thoughts on Chapter 2.

Curtis Perrin
cmperrin@...

Simon Leclerc/Simon the Clerk/Father Simon:  Does anyone see any historical
allusions in this name?

p. 24:  "The most lasting quality of loss is its unexpectedness."  You never
feel loss when you’re "supposed to" at funerals, wakes, etc.  But it is
unexpectedly when suddenly a thing will set off a series of mental
associations causing the most profound sensation of loss.  Richard didn’t
"truly" feel the loss of Lester until he totally didn’t expect to.

p. 27:  "Color was more intensely image than it can usually manage to be,
even in that art."  Some quality of the light in this painting brings things
into a "fuller" reality in which they are in correspondence with the images
(ideals) that exist behind the appearances.

p. 27:  "Here lies the east; does not the day break here?"  From *Julius
Caesar* II.i

p. 28:  "It [light] would everywhere have burst through, had it not chosen
rather to be shaped into forms, and to restrain and change its greatness in
the colors of those lesser limits.  It was universal and it lived."  Light
is an image (in this novel) for the Absolute, the essence of Being.  Light
is the positive quality of which all the creation is manifested.  Light
shapes itself into the forms (images) that we can see, but behind those
appearances is the great truth of light.

p. 28:  "Sir Joshua Reynolds once alluded to ‘common observation and plain
understanding’ as the source of all art."  I believe this is found in
Reynolds’ *Fifteen Discourses on Art.*  I think this principle is at work in
Jonathan’s painting:  he merely painted what he saw, but in doing so he
captured a reality beyond any "theory" he might of had about what Simon
Clerk means.  He thought he was merely painting, but his simple
understanding of his art allowed him to "directly" render the truth he might
otherwise have missed seeing.

p. 29:  "to paint the massiveness of light"  Interesting idea.  What he
means is not the massiveness in terms of size only, but massiveness in terms
of light being mass, being something tangible and formed into concrete
things.  The abstraction of pure light becomes reified into forms.  But
Jonathan also has a misgiving about this:  "This, I now see, is compromising
with light by turning it into things.  Remains to leave out the things and
get into the light."  The Gnostics talked of an ‘original light’ that
existed before the creation.  Gnostic heresies lamented the fact that the
light was later broken up and formed into matter, a belief that would be
directly in opposition to Williams’ which celebrated the incarnation and the
creation (the creation of mass, and physical reality).  I wonder if an
opposition is being set up here between those who are attracted to pure
spirit (light) and those who look for light to be created into things.

p. 32:  Jonathan:  "I feel as if there was something in him [Simon] I hadn’t
grasped."  I think that ‘something’ is actually the ‘nothing’ that exists in
the centre of Simon.  It’s hard to grasp a thing that doesn’t exist.  As
Williams has elsewhere written, evil in the strictest theological sense
cannot really "exist" as a positive "thing" because that would be to imply a
duality between good and evil.  Rather evil "exists" (if we can say that) in
the vacuum left when good is withdrawn—evil exists in the absence of good.
If we can view Simon as a person from whom most aspects of "good" have been
withdrawn, then really he "exists" as the "nothingness" of evil.  That is
why Jonathan has such a hard time grasping him—technically where there is no
good there would be nothing to grasp!

p. 32:  "It’s a sort of massive dullness—much like your mass *and* light;
only the opposite."  Here we are talking about mass again.  Is this a novel
or a physics primer?  Dullness results from interferences with the way the
light hits a surface so that it cannot reflect.  I think what we’re seeing
is that Simon is this "mass of dullness" because he doesn’t reflect the
"light" that before was alluded to as something absolute.  Simon is like a
zero quantity, a hole in the world, that doesn’t reflect the light that
created him.

p. 32-33:  "The more I look at what I can see of the face, the more I think
that it doesn’t mean anything."  Well here we get it more directly—Simon is
a "no"thing.  He is the "creation" of the "lack" of good.  The idea
continues:  "This man looks as if he were being frightfully definite and
completely indefinite at the same moment."  Similarly with zero (or
nothingness):  it seems to mean something because it is a place holder for
other quantities, but simultaneously zero has NO meaning.  What a paradox!

p. 40:  "though one did get different angles on paintings, one did not
usually so soon see on the same canvas what was practically a different
painting."  It is like they went through a paradigm shift or something and
have discovered a whole new way of looking at the world, heliocentric vs.
geocentric or something like that.  We get comfortable with our own ways of
seeing things and begin to take appearances for granted.  Then if we are
shocked out of our normal patterns and see things in a new way it is like a
whole new world is born.

p. 43:  "The whole ordinary room became only an imitation of a room;
Jonathan and he were ghosts in a ghostly chamber, the realities were the man
in the cleft of the rock and the rising beetles."  Again we get the idea of
two competing realities.  Similarly there are two Londons, the London of the
living and the London of the dead.  Like the two cities from Augustine.

p. 43:  "The painting lived, as the *Mona Lisa* does, in the moment of
beginning, in the mathematical exactitude of beginning."  I love this
sentence because it captures the whole meaning of DaVinci’s painting with
such concision.  Yes!  Indeed, the *Mona Lisa* is all about the moment of a
smile’s "becoming."  It has not yet come to be, and it has not yet "just
been"—it is the very exact moment of it’s "coming into being"—a remarkable
feat for a painter to capture.  It is like applying the differential
calculus to human expression and catching it exactly at the point where it
is in the NOW rather than seeing it proleptically or analeptically.  This is
the same way Williams writes, capturing reality in its becoming.

p. 44:  "Metamorphosis was still in them."  He’s talking about the
beetle-people.  Had Williams read Kafka?  Whatever the case it’s an
interesting parallel, both authors talking about transformations.

p. 44:  "tutti di pietra di color ferrigno"  Inferno, Canto XVIII

p. 46:  "It occurred to him then that he had on the whole been in the habit
of thinking of Lester only in relation to himself.  He saw suddenly in her
the power that waited for use."  Richard for the first time sees Lester in
her "quiddity", as a real and whole person existing apart from himself.
This is the way Dante was struck by Beatrice.  This is the Dantean
experience of the image (here a woman) as an "exterior, objective fact" that
nevertheless "looks beyond itself."  See, Figure of Beatrice, chapt. 1.  In
*Figure of Beatrice* Williams writes that Dante’s task was in his poetry to
"make love into something that is no longer ‘in relation’ to something, but
just ‘is.’"  FoB at 24.




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Hi everyone!  We seem to have lapsed into a great silence.  What's are we
all up to, meditation?  Here are my comments on Chapter 1.  Looking forward
to the discussion of the rest of the book!

Title:  All Hallows’ Eve:  I thought some background information on the
title might be interesting.  The following information came off the webpage:

http://nashville.citysearch.com/E/F/NASTN/0000/16/11/

"Halloween, or All Hallows Eve, began as a night to celebrate the fall
harvest in pre-Christian times. On October 31st, the Druids would feast and
build huge bonfires to celebrate the Sun God, and thank him for the food
that the land produced. The next day, November 1st, was the Celtic New Year,
and it was believed that on this day the souls of all dead people would
gather together. Therefore, on Halloween, the Celts would also honor the God
of the Dead, Samhain. During medieval times, this night was believed to be
the night where elves, fairies, and witches were most likely to travel and
gather together. The traditional bonfires were lit for protection against
evil. Sometimes witches were even believed to take the shapes of black cats.
Christianity began to recognize this holiday and that's when nuts, apples
and other goodies became an important part of this celebration. Late in the
19th century, the Irish began to believe that the elves and fairies would
play tricks on them at night, and so little boys started playing tricks as
well. The Irish and Scottish brought the tradition of celebration and
playing tricks with them to America. In Scotland and Ireland, they would
carve turnips for decoration, but in America we carve pumpkins into
Jack-o-Lanterns."

It will be interesting to consider why Williams chose to set the action of
this book around this particular date.

Introduction by T. S. Eliot:

I pulled a few sentences out of the introduction that I think are important
to understanding this book (and Williams in general).

p. xi:  "What he [Williams] had to say was beyond his resources, and
probably beyond the resources of language, to say once and for all through
any one medium of expression."

p. xiv:  "His [Williams’] aim is to make you partake of a kind of experience
that he has had, rather than to make you accept some dogmatic belief."

p. xvi:  "He [Williams] is concerned, not with the Evil of conventional
morality and the ordinary manifestations by which we recognise it, but with
the essence of Evil; it is therefore Evil which has no power to attract us,
for we see it as the repulsive thing it is, and as the despair of the damned
from which we recoil."

Chapter 1.

Names:  Lester:  Isn't this usually a male name?  I think it's derived from
Leicester.  Williams often seems to choose names that have a significance to
him that would be hard for other people to notice.  Leicester was a
courtier-favourite of Queen Elizabeth, and as we all know from his biography
of her Elizabeth held a particular fascination for Williams.  Did he name
her Lester to underscore the idea of "court"esy in her character?  It is
interesting too that Williams often chooses names for his characters from
19th century novels.  In some other books he uses names from Disraeli, Scott
and Dickens.  Leicester was a character in Scott's *Kenilworth.*  I remember
the first time I read AHE thinking to myself that Lester was a particularly
sinister sounding name for a woman!

Evelyn:  Evelyn Underhill, Anglican writer on mysticism, was a close friend
and important influence on Williams.  He edited her letters for publication
at around the same time AHE was being written.  She could be the source for
the name.

p. 3:  "A silence that she [Lester] did not know, so that if she yielded to
the silence she would not know those other things."  I think what is
important here is the concept of yielding to this force that is greater than
Lester.  It is interesting to note that many theories of ghosts say they are
the souls of people who are unwilling to "yield" to death.  But I don’t
think that’s what’s going on with Lester.  But what is this thing that she
might "yield" herself to?  Nothingness?  Rest?  I’m not sure, but I think we
should keep this in mind while reading the book.

p. 17:  "that act of pure courtesy":  The courtesy was allowing her arm to
be taken by Evelyn.  Even small things can have momentous consequences.
Courtesy is always a very important theme for Williams.

p. 19:  "Evelyn had failed again."  Does anybody else think this is a typo
that should read "Wailed" instead?  Remember, Evelyn *was* crying out in the
paragraph before.

p. 20:  "This curious new exactitude of speech hung here like a strange
language, . . . and the oath had echoed into an invocation."  Small actions
(like the courtesy extended above) seem to take on larger-than-life
significance in this limbo-London.  Williams is always seeking exactitude in
his language when he is describing extreme psychological states and moments
of mysticism.  Those are usually treated by other writers as occasions to
gush with romanticism, but Williams attempts to analyse the *romantic
experience* with almost classical precision.

p. 20:  "Her mouth was uttering its own habits."  It’s almost as if the
Platonic forms (images) behind her habits are manifesting themselves as
realities while the exterior expressions of the habits are denigrating into
vagueness.  Particularities are becoming generalities, and vice versa.  This
is similar to what happened in *Place of the Lion* when ideas took on a
reality of their own.

Curtis Perrin
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Hi. We've been quiet.

Chap. 2: The Beetles.

Not the Fab Four, of course, who were quite young when this book came out!
;-)

The Beetles are the followers of Clerk Simon as depicted in Jonathan's
painting. (The cover art on the Eerdman's edition I have brings this out
with subtlety. We learn much more about both the painting, about Jonathan,
and about Simon and his beetles in these two chapters.

The tone so far I have found perfect- nary a stumble.

As the chapter opens, we learn that Richard has a friend named Jonathan.
Jonathan is the artsy character that constant readers have come to expect to
find in a CW novel.

P. 29 'Do you propose to turn Churchill into a series of vibrations in pure
light?" Now that's a funny thought! Unusual in CW for a historical person to
be alluded to.

About the painting: we are given several perspectives (quite literally) on
the painting: Richard's, Jonathan's (in bits and pieces), Lady W.'s (Ick!)
and later, Simon's.

P. 29 '...to paint the massiveness of light..." Intriguing. Here, and in
another place in this chapter, CW is talking about the visual arts- although
he himself worked in words. This phrase, 'massiveness of light' seems apt: a
painting with the sun glorying through a cumulo-nimbus, something that would
have a tone-poem setting in A-Flat Major, that would show the massiveness of
light I guess. A nice metaphor-paradox

P. 30 'the Prophet'. This may be an allusion to the false prophet figure in
Revelation 16 and later. That Simon is an American is unusual in CW.

P. 32 More about  painting. Yes- the visual arts do have a different
relation in time that the word arts- words are more linear. Another subtle
point.

This chapter wraps up with two encounters: Richard & Jonathan vs Lady W. and
Betty-in-tow; and Richard meeting Lester. Both nicely done.

Comments? Perhaps a bit more on chap. 3 later from me.

Dave









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Hi. I recall reading this, my first CW novel, many years ago, and thinking
then how good an opening chapter this was. That impression still holds, for
this reader.

'The New Life'. An interesting turn of phrase. Dante's book, possibly the
foundational work in Romantic Theology, is named this, yes? (I haven't read
it, only some excerpts).

P. 1 "It was true that the formal peace was not yet in being..."
Extra-textually, we know that this novel was conceived and completed in the
40's- like the Screwtape Letters, it presumes that the war will end at some
point. But, in narrative time, we are 'In the last days of WW II'

P. 1 'Those lights were the peace.' I liked this phrase very much. During
the London Blitz, and elsewhere as  well, city lights were not allowed to
show forth at night, since they were thought to assist enemy bombers in
targeting. Thus, in context, when people start to feel comfortable about
letting their lights shine again, peace is indeed about to break out .

P. 8 We come through eight or nine pages in which Lester, with
delicately-drawn gradualness, comes to realize her situation- 'She was
dead'. We readers come to the same conclusion, at about the same rate. A
fine effect.

P. 9 ".... she was sincerely used to Evelyn." Again, a different turn of
phrase, for a friend. 'Sincerely used to'- someone to whom one is inured to,
who is just so and has longtime been so; not an intimate, but not a mere
acquaintance. Someone who, for whatever unknown reason, is part of your
story. Yes, I think I understand that.

P. 9 "...and she could not know that it was the sincerity of her interest
that procured her this relaxation in the void." It is unusual in Williams
fiction for the narrative voice to instruct us directly- here it sticks out
(to this reader). The narrartive voice seems to know quite a lot about the
New Life.


Dave





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We went out and saw the new Robin Williams' movie, What Dreams May Come'
last eve.

The title, by the way, refers to the speech of Hamlet: "For in that sleep of
death what dreams may come..."

I thought that there were arguably some correspondences to the opening
chapter of books I've read, especially Dante, but also Charles Williams All
Hallows Eve, and C.S.Lewis; The Great Divorce. All Hallows Eve,  in
particular, in  the way in which the dead encountered the living.

The spiritual aspect was interesting. Not Xtian orthodox, but sort of
new-agey and vanilla. In the spiritual structutre of WDMC, when you die, you
may experience a bridging-sequence (see your funeral, etc.) -it's basically
about coming to terms with your own death. Then, normally, you would start
out with a heaven pretty much of you own conception- you or a few intimates
would be the only ones in it. A period of adjustment, I guess.

God, in the movie, exists, but is still very much off-camera. This could be
where it maps to Lewis' The Great Divorce, where the fringes of heaven are
where spirits in bliss can reach out to those who 'still have issues'. ;-) .
Also, I was thinking of Narnia in the closing scenes of The Last Battle-
'Come Further up and Farther in!"I thought that there were arguably some
correspondences to the opening chapter of AHE, in particular the way in
which the dead encountered the living.

There is no God-imposed Hell in the structure of this movie- there is a
self-imposed Hell, for suicides for one example. (Much of the plot hinges on
this). The key seems to be, are you (your spirit) in tune with the reality
around you, or are you 'still in denial' (in Casper-speak, do you still have
'unfinished business'? or what the therapists call 'baggage').

I'm not especially coherent this AM, but it was an intriguing movie. Oh,
great special effects, esp. the colors and tones.

If anyone else sees the movie and wants to discuss it in relation to AHE,
well, jump in !

Dave


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Hi. We've been quiet, but we are in operation.

Some Notes before starting  AHE:

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, Northrup Frye did *not* appreciate AHE
much- he considered it a lesser re-write of Shadows_of_Ecstacy. We shall
see. ;-)

Glen Cavaliero, on the other hand, does see much to praise in All Hallows
Eve: "Its theme is the same as that of Descent into Hell: the choice of fact
or illusion, beautitude or damnation, made through the readiness, or not, to
practice exchange. In the previous novels this choice was laid before living
people; here it is seen operating among the dead." (GC, CW: Poet of Theo.,
p91)

I also commend to your attention, gentle co-reader, the Introduction (1948)
by T.S. Eliot. "They [CW's novels] are good reading for those who never read
a novel more than once, and who demand only that it should keep them
interested for two or three hours. I believe that is how W. himself would
like them to be read, the first time. For he was a gay and simple man, with
a keen sense of adventure, entertainment, and drollery. The deeper things
are there just because they belonged to the world he lived in, and he could
not have keep them out." (AHE, xviii)

Side note: This semester, I mostly have time to read when I'm on the trolley
going through Newton and Brookline, and that's on Fridays.

Dave





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Hi. Life is far too busy (although I'm not ready for the afterlife yet!)

Some links for preparation for our group read of All Hallows Eve:

http://ernie.bgsu.edu/~edwards/WMS.html

(Dr. Bruce's page offers some leading questions)

http://www.lonergan.on.ca/hefling.htm

(An interview with Charles C. Hefling)

http://www.cowley.org/home/willchas.htm

('Cowley Authors' an Anglican publishing house)

http://www.sure.net/~sangreal/cw.htm

(Visions of the Kingdom and its Saints in Charles Williams' All Hallows'
Eve)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0899684149/002-0069453-5019425

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0802812503/002-0069453-5019425


(Amazon's site- inclides reader's comments)

============
reposting my quote from CSL:

Another quote from Lewis' essay on the novels of Williams (reprinted in
'On Stories') might be of further interest to readers of this
forum, in the present context:
  That [an example from All Hallows' Eve], is only one
  instance of a curious effect which Williams' supposals
  often have. They render possible the creation of good
  characters. Good characters in fiction are the very
  devil. Not only because most authors have too little
  material to make them of, but because we as readers
  have a strong sub-conscious wish to find them incredible.
  [... An example from Walter Scott]. In Williams we are
  are similarly off our guard. We see his good people in
  strange circumstances and do not think much of calling
  them good. Only on later reflection do we discover what
  we have been surprised into accepting.
A few paragraphs later he concludes this thought: "It is one of
the liberating qualities in Williams' books that we are hardly
ever on the merely moral level."

==========


Dave

PS: I'm going to re-post my material to alt.books.inklings, to try and
kick-start it. I won't quote anyone from coinherence-l in anything I post to
the usenet dimension of chaos. ;-)


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Joe Watson posted:

>>Testing, testing. "Hello? Hello? Does anyone here speak English?"

All Hallows Eve sounds good to me.<<

Sounds good to me, too.

@--->--->---
Dee Jarvis

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Testing, testing. "Hello? Hello? Does anyone here speak English?"

All Hallows Eve sounds good to me.

I expect I can find my copy...


Joe Watson

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Well, just making sure that the list address is working...


Tony Z

Special Collections Librarian & Archivist     E-mail: tzbarasc@...
La Sierra University                          Et vocavit Deus, "Fiat lux!"



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Hi. Please reply if you do not get this message.

Dave

PS: Kidding!

PPS: Since it's fall, I'm thinking of a group read through of All Hallows
Eve ; any seconds?




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