That is really interesting that she enjoys music.  I wrote in an
earlier post that I have a brother with the same personality as I
do, but he is not a clutterer and I am.  The biggest personality
difference between us is that he really enjoys music, and I don't.

I wrote in an earlier post that I think that cultivating an
enjoyment for music can be a solution to speech problems.  This
might sound weird:  Cluttering can be looked at as an organizational
problem.  Music is very organized, and there in an inherent
organization within music.  So, maybe by learning music, you learn
some organizational skills that transfer over into speech.

So, my recommendation would be to cultivate her love for music, and
to help it to grow.  If she is like I was, there will be a time
where loving music will get really difficult for her, but if you
help her to love it enough now, she will be able to push through the
difficult time, and if I am right, then her cure for cluttering
could be centered on music.

You brought up another really interesting point, which was about how
she ends her sentences with "Um..yeah."

When I was analyzing Crispin Glover's speech as an example of
cluttering in earlier post, I noted that he ended a lot of thoughts
with, "and I feel really good about it."  I've been noticing how I
end spoken paragraphs, and I noticed that the thing that I use
is, "and it is really cool," or a variant of that.

When I'm saying this sentence, I'm trying to express something a lot
more complex, like "the inviting color of that lamp conjured
feelings of warmth that remind me of childhood," but it comes out
as "and it is really cool."

So, I'm wondering if that is a common thing with clutterers.  With
me, I kind of run out of what I'm trying to say, or since I haven't
really organized my thoughts, I have more to express, but the
thoughts haven't fully developed, so they come out as a generic
filler statement like "it is really cool."

So, I wonder if "Um...yeah," "and I feel really good about it,"
and "it is really cool," have something in common, and I'm wondering
what other clutterers use to end their thoughts.

>
>
> I am not a clutterer, but I am the mother of one, and she is
> also quite ADHD. I hadn't really thought about where one ends
> and the other begins because her speech pathology and her
> neuropathology make her the person she is (nuts!) but I would
> guess that there is some interaction. FWIW, my daughter, age 11,
> is a wonderful singer and artist, truely gifted artistically.
> She is also extremely athletic. She has very neat handwriting,
> but can't spell to save her life, and her grammar is atrocious.
> Just this morning we had her IEP review with all her
> specialists, and the main topic of converstation was her
> inability to stop chattering on and on....mostly because she
> just doesn't know how to finish a thought. She'll end most
> paragraphs with, "Um...yeah" which gets stale pretty fast.
>
> Watching her speech develop has been an interesting journey. She
> was diagnosed as a clutter at age 6, so we've known for quite
> some time that she has this unusual speech problem, but she's
> compensating nicely in many aspects. She is absolutely unable,
> however, to follow directions, keep on task, and be quiet.
>
> Marjorie
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: Joseph Dewey
> >   To: cluttering@yahoogroups.com
> >   Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 8:27 AM
> >   Subject: [cluttering] Seven tests to tell if you are a
> > clutterer
> >
> >
> >   I personally think that everyone clutters to an extent, but
> > it is
> >   only extreme cases, where speech is hard to understand that
> > it
> >   constitutes a disorder.  I think that ultimately there will
> > be some
> >   kind of cluttering test with a score score that ranks
> > everyone with
> >   their amount of cluttering, and how close to a disorder they
> >
> >   actually are.
> >
> >   I've got a few tests below for you to do to if you're
> > interested in
> >   finding out if you are a clutterer.  A couple of these tests
> > are
> >   stolen from Weiss.  A few are modified from other sources,
> > and a
> >   couple I made up.  However, I must warn you that the only
> > way to
> >   really tell if you are a clutterer is to consult with a
> > licensed and
> >   knowledgeable Speech-Language Pathologist.
> >
> >   Enjoy.
> >
> >   Test #1:  Count backwards from 100, reducing by 3, so 100,
> > 97,
> >   94...  You should eventually end up with 1.  This is
> > extremely hard
> >   for clutterers to do, even if they are good with math,
> > because of a
> >   typical short attention span when it comes to speech.
> >
> >   Test #2:  Tape record yourself speaking, and when you play
> > it back,
> >   it should surprise you how disfluent you sound.  Clutterers
> > are
> >   typically unaware of how bad their speech sounds.  This will
> > be
> >   tricky, because you need to record yourself in candid
> > speech, where
> >   you're not really concentrating on your speech.  Something
> > like
> >   talking to your best friend, or talking about something that
> > you get
> >   really excited about.
> >
> >   Test #3:  Do your friends describe you as having "mild
> > stuttering"
> >   or being unsure of what you have to say?  You can tell if it
> > is
> >   stuttering or not by if you have a difficult time
> > pronouncing
> >   certain sounds of words.  Clutterers don't have difficulty
> >   pronouncing words, and get stuck on ideas more than on
> > words, where
> >   stutterers usually almost always get stuck on sound.
> >
> >   Test #4:  Read through a children's picture book that you
> > are not
> >   familiar with, and then, without referencing the book, tell
> > the
> >   story to a friend.  Ask your friend to keep track of how
> > much of the
> >   important elements of the story you told back, and what
> > important
> >   elements of the story you missed.  Clutterers are usually
> > poor
> >   storytellers, and will often miss important elements of a
> > story.
> >
> >   Test #5:  Ask yourself this question: What is process do you
> > go
> >   through in your head, when asked a complicated question, to
> >   formulate the answer to that question?  Clutterers are
> > unable to
> >   answer this question, at least they don't have a very good
> > answer.
> >
> >   Test #6:  Do people ask you to repeat yourself, and you are
> > confused
> >   (and maybe frustrated) as to why they are asking you to
> > repeat
> >   yourself?
> >
> >   Test #7:  Would you describe yourself as someone with a lot
> > of
> >   musical ability?  Clutterers typically are not very musical.
> >  Is
> >   your handwriting sloppy?  Clutterers typically have sloppy
> >   handwriting. Do you enjoy speaking fast?  Clutterers
> > typically speak
> >   fast.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >   cluttering-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >               ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
> >   Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cluttering/
> >
> >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >     cluttering-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> > Terms of Service.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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--- Lyndon Garvey <lyndon@...> wrote:
> Again with the attentional problems, sloppy handwriting, poor
> organisational abilities, difficulties with music, it sounds
> similar to ADHD.
>
> Interestingly enough, I've been researching the neurochemistry
> of stuttering, and there are no definate answers here, but
> there's a theory that  its' due to an excess of the
> neurotransmitter: dopamine in the forebrain.  Whereas ADHD is
> believed to be due to a lack of dopamine in the forebrain.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts on the similarities between
> cluttering and ADHD?


I am not a clutterer, but I am the mother of one, and she is
also quite ADHD. I hadn't really thought about where one ends
and the other begins because her speech pathology and her
neuropathology make her the person she is (nuts!) but I would
guess that there is some interaction. FWIW, my daughter, age 11,
is a wonderful singer and artist, truely gifted artistically.
She is also extremely athletic. She has very neat handwriting,
but can't spell to save her life, and her grammar is atrocious.
Just this morning we had her IEP review with all her
specialists, and the main topic of converstation was her
inability to stop chattering on and on....mostly because she
just doesn't know how to finish a thought. She'll end most
paragraphs with, "Um...yeah" which gets stale pretty fast.

Watching her speech develop has been an interesting journey. She
was diagnosed as a clutter at age 6, so we've known for quite
some time that she has this unusual speech problem, but she's
compensating nicely in many aspects. She is absolutely unable,
however, to follow directions, keep on task, and be quiet.

Marjorie
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Joseph Dewey
>   To: cluttering@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 8:27 AM
>   Subject: [cluttering] Seven tests to tell if you are a
> clutterer
>
>
>   I personally think that everyone clutters to an extent, but
> it is
>   only extreme cases, where speech is hard to understand that
> it
>   constitutes a disorder.  I think that ultimately there will
> be some
>   kind of cluttering test with a score score that ranks
> everyone with
>   their amount of cluttering, and how close to a disorder they
>
>   actually are.
>
>   I've got a few tests below for you to do to if you're
> interested in
>   finding out if you are a clutterer.  A couple of these tests
> are
>   stolen from Weiss.  A few are modified from other sources,
> and a
>   couple I made up.  However, I must warn you that the only
> way to
>   really tell if you are a clutterer is to consult with a
> licensed and
>   knowledgeable Speech-Language Pathologist.
>
>   Enjoy.
>
>   Test #1:  Count backwards from 100, reducing by 3, so 100,
> 97,
>   94...  You should eventually end up with 1.  This is
> extremely hard
>   for clutterers to do, even if they are good with math,
> because of a
>   typical short attention span when it comes to speech.
>
>   Test #2:  Tape record yourself speaking, and when you play
> it back,
>   it should surprise you how disfluent you sound.  Clutterers
> are
>   typically unaware of how bad their speech sounds.  This will
> be
>   tricky, because you need to record yourself in candid
> speech, where
>   you're not really concentrating on your speech.  Something
> like
>   talking to your best friend, or talking about something that
> you get
>   really excited about.
>
>   Test #3:  Do your friends describe you as having "mild
> stuttering"
>   or being unsure of what you have to say?  You can tell if it
> is
>   stuttering or not by if you have a difficult time
> pronouncing
>   certain sounds of words.  Clutterers don't have difficulty
>   pronouncing words, and get stuck on ideas more than on
> words, where
>   stutterers usually almost always get stuck on sound.
>
>   Test #4:  Read through a children's picture book that you
> are not
>   familiar with, and then, without referencing the book, tell
> the
>   story to a friend.  Ask your friend to keep track of how
> much of the
>   important elements of the story you told back, and what
> important
>   elements of the story you missed.  Clutterers are usually
> poor
>   storytellers, and will often miss important elements of a
> story.
>
>   Test #5:  Ask yourself this question: What is process do you
> go
>   through in your head, when asked a complicated question, to
>   formulate the answer to that question?  Clutterers are
> unable to
>   answer this question, at least they don't have a very good
> answer.
>
>   Test #6:  Do people ask you to repeat yourself, and you are
> confused
>   (and maybe frustrated) as to why they are asking you to
> repeat
>   yourself?
>
>   Test #7:  Would you describe yourself as someone with a lot
> of
>   musical ability?  Clutterers typically are not very musical.
>  Is
>   your handwriting sloppy?  Clutterers typically have sloppy
>   handwriting. Do you enjoy speaking fast?  Clutterers
> typically speak
>   fast.
>
>
>
>
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   cluttering-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Greetings,

I would like to thank you Ken for your input for the group, I listened to your speech at the BSA conference in Leeds in September, it was very inspirational.

I have a clutter, which has dogged me all my life through education and employment, nobody seemed to know what was up with me, I had many years with a speech therapist, but the real help cam when I decided to take the matter into my own hands.

I started audio taping my voice and playing it back at different rates, I then progressed through speaking into a video camera and playing this back, it was from these recordings I realised just how bad I sounded when compared to a fluent speaker.

I have had contact with Emma Goddard in respect of her wishing to produce a documentary on stammering, I have offered some input and I intend to raise the question with the local and regional media in respect of clarifying just what cluttering is and why people should be made aware of it.

It is not just the speaking, it is the writing, long, fast, scrawly and unintelligible, the scanning of written text rather than trying to read it, it is the busy lifestyle, the not able to relax syndrome, the its got to be right attitude, there are many things that coincide with this debilitating condition.

When I speak, it is very rarely that what I really wasn't to say will come out the way I want to say it, I am unable to say some words, so I have to think and substitute these, the context of my comments, phrases, sentences are all muddled up, people look at me and think "what is he trying to say"

In a contentious situation I get agitated, the words wont come out, when I finally burst them out they come out back to front, upside down and out of context.

It is very difficult for me to speak to people properly, even worse when that someone is someone I do not know, even worse when we are round a table and I am trying to get my comments across, I find it extremely difficult to speak from the floor, I have got tom plan what I want to say, when the time comes to say it, I am unable to remember the full context of my intended speech.

Even when typing, I can never let a document or email or letter go without proof reading it first, I make many mistakes although I am able to spell quite good, when writing, this looks like a caterpillar has crawled through an ink pot and scrawled all over the paper.

When reading from a book or a document, I find it very difficult to read it out a loud and in the right order, hence if I am giving a speech, I need to only write down "key" words, this way I can remind myself of what I am talking about and ad lib into the speech.

I am very pleased that you Ken, have come along onto this group and made this statement today, it is good to have some professional input, its good that such an educated person can understand the sheer everyday frustration of people who clutter, I know it is difficult to "slow down" I do slow down then speed up progressively without even realising it, I cannot say long words with out the endings being lost, solicitors biomes slisters, visitors become visters, sausage rolls become sage rolls, enthuisasm becomes nthusasm, the list goes on, frustration becomes even more frustrating.

In my life I have only ever met one other person that cluttererd, cluttered? what is that people say, I try and explain and get very differnt comments back, it is more frustrating when the peopl say to me "slow down", I cant, or "dont mumble" but it is difficult not to.

As befits most clutterers, I cannot sing, I am tone deaf, I have no melody in my voice I speak in a boring monotone, these alone do not help to boost ones confidence, I have it said that there must be something wrong wit me...........YES there is.and Icant do a great deal about it apart from what I have acheived so far.

I have been constructive and used the recordin, both audio and video of myself speakling, I heav tried to learn to speak   like    a    robot    but   this    does    nothing    for     your    confidence.

In 1998 I joined together with 3 Stammerers to form the "Hull & East Yorkshire Stammerers Self Help Group" since inception we have all worked very hard to help each other, to help raise awareness about speech dysfluency, we have got a good pro-active group and have aceived a great deal in only a short space of time.

Our next project will be to help raise the awareness of cluttering, to bring it into the open, to explain to people what it is, to income people just how to address one who clutters, just like a stammerer, people understand stammering, we need now to raise the profile of cluttering to try and help others like myself who have to endure many years of frustration and even when we plan our speech careful, it does not always come out the way we intend and this alone has caused problems when people misconstrue what has been said.

Lets hope we can keep this group motivated and try and offer help and support to these who need it.

Regards,

Peter

www.kissag.co.uk
www.speakingout.org.uk
www.hull-me.co.uk

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-- 

From: Joseph Dewey

To: cluttering@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 8:27 AM

Subject: [cluttering] Seven tests to tell if you are a clutterer

I personally think that everyone clutters to an extent, but it is
only extreme cases, where speech is hard to understand that it
constitutes a disorder.  I think that ultimately there will be some
kind of cluttering test with a score score that ranks everyone with
their amount of cluttering, and how close to a disorder they
actually are.

I've got a few tests below for you to do to if you're interested in
finding out if you are a clutterer.  A couple of these tests are
stolen from Weiss.  A few are modified from other sources, and a
couple I made up.  However, I must warn you that the only way to
really tell if you are a clutterer is to consult with a licensed and
knowledgeable Speech-Language Pathologist.

Enjoy.

Test #1:  Count backwards from 100, reducing by 3, so 100, 97,
94...  You should eventually end up with 1.  This is extremely hard
for clutterers to do, even if they are good with math, because of a
typical short attention span when it comes to speech.

Test #2:  Tape record yourself speaking, and when you play it back,
it should surprise you how disfluent you sound.  Clutterers are
typically unaware of how bad their speech sounds.  This will be
tricky, because you need to record yourself in candid speech, where
you're not really concentrating on your speech.  Something like
talking to your best friend, or talking about something that you get
really excited about.

Test #3:  Do your friends describe you as having "mild stuttering"
or being unsure of what you have to say?  You can tell if it is
stuttering or not by if you have a difficult time pronouncing
certain sounds of words.  Clutterers don't have difficulty
pronouncing words, and get stuck on ideas more than on words, where
stutterers usually almost always get stuck on sound.

Test #4:  Read through a children's picture book that you are not
familiar with, and then, without referencing the book, tell the
story to a friend.  Ask your friend to keep track of how much of the
important elements of the story you told back, and what important
elements of the story you missed.  Clutterers are usually poor
storytellers, and will often miss important elements of a story.

Test #5:  Ask yourself this question: What is process do you go
through in your head, when asked a complicated question, to
formulate the answer to that question?  Clutterers are unable to
answer this question, at least they don't have a very good answer.

Test #6:  Do people ask you to repeat yourself, and you are confused
(and maybe frustrated) as to why they are asking you to repeat
yourself?

Test #7:  Would you describe yourself as someone with a lot of
musical ability?  Clutterers typically are not very musical.  Is
your handwriting sloppy?  Clutterers typically have sloppy
handwriting. Do you enjoy speaking fast?  Clutterers typically speak
fast.




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>I heav tried to learn to speak   like    a    robot    but   this
>does    nothing    for     your    confidence.

That was hilarious!  I was ROTFL when I read that!  So true!

Thinking about that test, I think I might have some mild elements of
cluttering.  I am definitely a stutterer, but I also find I have more
"formulatory blocks" where I stutter seemingly as a delay tactic while
getting my thoughts in line.  I also tend to compose emails and such in
a nonlinear way, often going back and editing what I'm saying.  I
sometimes find that I leave in ungramatical errors even though I
proofread the message.  But later on I'll catch those errors.  Kind of
a momentary disconnection from what's being said.  I certainly fall
into the "can't sing" category too, which is different from a lot of
stutterers who seem to be great at singing.  And I do sometimes have
people say they don't understand me, but usually that's from the vocal
distortions of stuttering rather than the content being disjointed.

But all of these things are of course normal to some degree, and I
suppose it's a matter of judgement whether it occurs enough to
categorize yourself as a clutterer.  I'm investigating and it's
interesting learning more!

-Tom



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Dear friends,

This is my first post, and I will keep it fairly brief.

I want to thank Joseph Dewey for his initiative to start a listserv
for people who clutter. A few months ago, he had contacted me,
and I was unable to refer him to any such support group
mechanism for folks with this poorly understood condition.
Because of his efforts, this forum now exists.

I am pleased as well that he posted the query to me by Emma
Goddard who is hoping to do a documentary on cluttering in the
UK. {Emma, I hope this list will provide the means for you to
complete that important project.}

My thanks again to Joseph for posting the website and content of
an article I recently published with three colleagues in The Asha
Leader (bimonthly magazine of the American
Speech-Language-Hearing Association). If you go to the
website, you will find a couple of links with some additional
sidebar information and references on cluttering. For your
information, the article was written for speech-language
pathologists, but it clearly has relevance to readers of a list like
this one.

A bit about me. I'm a 59 year-old speech-language pathologist
who specializes in fluency disorders (stuttering and cluttering).
I've worked in higher education most all of my adult life, teaching,
carrying out research, and working with people with fluency
disorders. I am a stutterer myself, but my stuttering is mostly
gone now.

Do I clutter? Probably not in the clinical sense, but I have a fairly
rapid rate of speaking and have always had to work *not* to stray
from the topic I am discussing. My interest in cluttering has been
mostly academic; I have done research in the area for nearly 20
years, collaborating a great deal with Florence Myers since the
late 1980s and with Klaas Bakker and Larry Raphael in the past
six years. I've also collaborated with David Daly, who is also a
well-known authority on cluttering.

I have tried to get the field of speech-language pathology to
recognize cluttering and to facilitate that by developing what I
called a "working definition" of the disorder. The literature is so
confusing that, if we do not agree on a definition, it is unlikely that
we will generate much usable research. If you read the Leader
article, you will see that I have focused on speaking rate as a
central problem, either too fast or too jerky. These rate problems
seem to result in too many disfluencies (mostly of the sort seen
in everyone) and/or slurred speech, especially in long words.

Of course, as I saw in several posts, there are numerous
examples of other symptoms: not being able to stay on topic, not
having a clear idea of what one plans/wants to say, having
difficulty paying attention to usual "rules" of conversations,
unawareness of one's speech difficulties, etc. Whether these will
eventually be essential or optional symptoms of cluttering is yet
unknown.

FYI: I will not interact very much on the list because its purpose is
clearly for people who clutter--or might clutter--to have a forum to
share ideas, questions, and personal stories. It is not a place for
people like me to pontificate. More important, I don't have many
personal experiences of cluttering to share. But be assured that I
will lurk and learn from all of you. If I have something to say, or
ask, I will put it out there.

Best wishes,

Ken St. Louis
Professor of Speech-Language Pathology
West Virginia University

I personally think that everyone clutters to an extent, but it is
only extreme cases, where speech is hard to understand that it
constitutes a disorder.  I think that ultimately there will be some
kind of cluttering test with a score score that ranks everyone with
their amount of cluttering, and how close to a disorder they
actually are.

I've got a few tests below for you to do to if you're interested in
finding out if you are a clutterer.  A couple of these tests are
stolen from Weiss.  A few are modified from other sources, and a
couple I made up.  However, I must warn you that the only way to
really tell if you are a clutterer is to consult with a licensed and
knowledgeable Speech-Language Pathologist.

Enjoy.

Test #1:  Count backwards from 100, reducing by 3, so 100, 97,
94...  You should eventually end up with 1.  This is extremely hard
for clutterers to do, even if they are good with math, because of a
typical short attention span when it comes to speech.

Test #2:  Tape record yourself speaking, and when you play it back,
it should surprise you how disfluent you sound.  Clutterers are
typically unaware of how bad their speech sounds.  This will be
tricky, because you need to record yourself in candid speech, where
you're not really concentrating on your speech.  Something like
talking to your best friend, or talking about something that you get
really excited about.

Test #3:  Do your friends describe you as having "mild stuttering"
or being unsure of what you have to say?  You can tell if it is
stuttering or not by if you have a difficult time pronouncing
certain sounds of words.  Clutterers don't have difficulty
pronouncing words, and get stuck on ideas more than on words, where
stutterers usually almost always get stuck on sound.

Test #4:  Read through a children's picture book that you are not
familiar with, and then, without referencing the book, tell the
story to a friend.  Ask your friend to keep track of how much of the
important elements of the story you told back, and what important
elements of the story you missed.  Clutterers are usually poor
storytellers, and will often miss important elements of a story.

Test #5:  Ask yourself this question: What is process do you go
through in your head, when asked a complicated question, to
formulate the answer to that question?  Clutterers are unable to
answer this question, at least they don't have a very good answer.

Test #6:  Do people ask you to repeat yourself, and you are confused
(and maybe frustrated) as to why they are asking you to repeat
yourself?

Test #7:  Would you describe yourself as someone with a lot of
musical ability?  Clutterers typically are not very musical.  Is
your handwriting sloppy?  Clutterers typically have sloppy
handwriting. Do you enjoy speaking fast?  Clutterers typically speak
fast.

The following is what I posted to a stuttering board that I belong
to.  It is a rehash of my original post and letter, but I thought it
might be interesting.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Crispin Glover, a famous actor with a speech problem similar to
stuttering

I'm convinced that Crispin Glover has a speech problem called
cluttering.  Crispin is the actor who played the dad in Back to the
Future, and has recently starred in the movies Willard and Bartleby,
and was the Thin Man in Charlie's Angels.

I think that by identifying actors and actresses with speech
problems, that speech problems will become less weird, and that is
the way that we can raise awareness of speech problems.  Since
cluttering has been so closely linked with stuttering, I think that
this post is very appropriate for this board.

I think that the best place to see Crispin cluttering is in the clip
of when he was on the David Letterman show, and tried to kick David
in the head.

Cluttering is a speech disorder that sounds like mild stuttering and
that the speaker is unsure of what they are trying to accomplish in
speaking.  A non-trained person can see the evidence of cluttering
by the existence of excessive disfluencies.

Let me explain the various types of disfluencies in speech.
Repetitions are what are typical of stuttering, but in cluttering
they come as word and phrase repetitions, rather than sound
repetitions.  (e.g., "I am…I am…I am going to the store.")
Revisions are when a word or phrase is figuratively crossed out in
conversation, and replaced by the intended word or phrase.
(e.g., "I'm going … walking to the store.")  Interjections are
usually filler words, such as "uh" or "you know," but in cluttering
they also take the form of interjecting what seems to be a random
thought or idea into a sentence.  In cluttering, an entire new
thought can be interjected into a sentence.  (e.g., "I'm…uh…going to
the…Did I tell you that I need to get some groceries?")

All of these are normal, and everyone does them every day.  However,
clutterers exhibit an excessive amount of them.  And, Crispin
evidences all of these, in excessive amounts, when he appeared on
David Letterman.

Also, cluttering is a speech disorder that is linked with poor
organizational abilities.  Cluttering also is typically linked with
a fast speaking rate.  I believe that because of Crispin's training
to be an actor, that he is probably able to control his speaking
rate, as there doesn't seem to be much evidence of a very fast
speaking rate in this clip.

Many have said that Crispin was probably on drugs during David
Letterman.  I don't believe this was the case.  I think that he is
simply a clutterer with very poor organizational skills, who was
probably confused why it was that David walked out after the segment.

I began to suspect that Crispin was a clutterer when I watched the
director's commentary for a video that he directed entitled "Ben,"
for the movie "Willard."  This video shows an incredibly fast
speaking rate, and very monotone speech throughout, which are both
typical of clutterers.  Also, on another feature for the
movie "Willard," which was a behind-the-scenes movie, Crispin says a
sentence like, "I..I..I..I..I..I..I..I..think we should…"  This
repetition of the word "I" approximately seven times shows non-
normal speech.  He said this without physical difficulty of getting
out the word, which shows more cluttering than stuttering.  After
watching this, and heavily suspecting cluttering, I searched for
more candid video of Crispin on the Internet, and found the
following.  I believe that this shows an excellent example of
Crispin's cluttering.

I have attached links to the clip of the David Letterman show below,
which is interesting viewing, and I have done a play-by-play writeup
of Crispin's disfluencies on the show.

Also, if you are interested or if you have cluttering like symptoms
in conjunction with your stuttering, please join the cluttering
group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cluttering/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

File 1: The audio and video file

http://consumptionjunction.com/downloads/cj_23908.wmv

File 2: My writeup

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cluttering/files/

File 3: The audio only file

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cluttering/files/

Cluttering is not as well known as stuttering.  I think that a huge
reason for this is that people don't know famous people who
clutter.  There is no ready example for someone to say, "Cluttering
sounds like [insert person here]." There are many examples of
stutterers.  Just about one in twenty Hollywood movies has someone
who has sounds like stuttering.

I think I've found a celebrity who is a clutterer.  Crispin Glover,
who was the dad in Back to the Future.  He was recently in the movie
Willard, also.

Right after Back to the Future, Crispin appeared on the David
Letterman show, and got kicked off.  He got flustered, and I think
that his speech on the show shows normal speech for him.

I've posted a write-up on this to the files section of this group,
along with an audio file for the show.  I'll put the links below.
Let me know what you think.  I don't think that he is a severe
clutterer, even though I do think that he exhibits all of the
symptoms.

Please read through my writeup.  It has columns, so I can't really
post it in a message.  It is in a Word Document.  Thanks.

File 1: My writeup

http://f2.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QODbP4S0bJ9tVrCoDDYOeOBKcBhlv0LVxtb7zT3i
sE-CZPxu5pj1SffvacmHwIq37avQ8LWuf0WXuuErzyv3Rw/David%20and%
20Crispin.doc

File 2:  The audio file

http://f3.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QODbPy9MSlBtVrCoZ0z9N1wzXGELSpn8rndvQB1D
qYi67bETXNcbYzfUhVdB3xXu0mmvwUPD1i9NVggh4NOBRA/Crispin%20Glover%
20and%20David%20Letterman.wma

File 3: The audio and video file

http://consumptionjunction.com/downloads/cj_23908.wmv

The following is a new article out about cluttering, written by the
top researchers on cluttering.  I thought that you would find it
interesting:

http://www.asha.org/about/publications/leader-
online/archives/2003/f031118a.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

cite as:
St. Louis, K. O., Raphael, L. J., Myers, F. L., & Bakker, K. (2003,
Nov. 18). Cluttering updated. The ASHA Leader, pp. 4-5, 20-22.

by Kenneth O. St. Louis, Lawrence J. Raphael, Florence L. Myers, and
Klaas Bakker

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Most speech-language pathologists are aware of the fluency disorder
known as cluttering, and most seasoned clinicians have managed a few
clients with the disorder. Many remember these clients not by how
well they responded to treatment but by how puzzling it was to know
what to do with them and how challenging they were to treat.

Those who have reviewed the literature on cluttering are often
struck by the paucity of research and the lack of a widely accepted
definition. The list of cluttering symptoms (see sidebar on p. 21)
and the commentaries from those with the disorder (see sidebar at
the top right of p. 5) explain, in part, why defining cluttering is
so difficult: It is hard to know which symptoms are essential to the
disorder and which are incidental.

Identification
Our research has advanced the following working
definition: "Cluttering is a syndrome characterized by a speech
delivery rate which is either abnormally fast, irregular, or both.
In cluttered speech, the person's speech is affected by one or
more
of the following: (1) failure to maintain normally expected sound,
syllable, phrase, and pausing patterns; (2) evidence of greater than
expected incidents of disfluency, the majority of which are unlike
those typical of people who stutter." An example of cluttered speech
can be seen in the sidebar at the center of p. 5.

This definition expands previous definitions that focused only on
two components: an excessively rapid and/or irregular speaking rate,
and disfluencies that are frequent but are not judged to be
stuttering. Like all working definitions, this one must change as
new data are gathered. Admittedly, the definition is not wholly
satisfactory, partly because it is based on listener judgment. One
especially frustrating problem is that people with the disorder
frequently do not clutter, for example, when they speak in a short
screening evaluation. In such cases, they either are not diagnosed
or one must rely on subjective reports, by the client or others,
that cluttering does indeed exist.

Another vexing issue is the extent to which language planning and
pragmatic problems are implicated in the diagnosis of cluttering. We
do not currently include language difficulties in the definition
because there appear to be at least a few clutterers for whom
language problems are not evident. A third confusing issue is that
cluttering often—but not always—coexists with stuttering,
although
the two are now regarded as distinct fluency disorders by most
authorities. Moreover, cluttering is often noticed before the
stuttering takes over during development of the disorders and after
stuttering is treated successfully, but not while a person manifests
significant stuttering. Further adding to this confusion, even in
relatively rare cases of "pure cluttering," is that most clutterers
or their families refer to their problems as "stuttering."

Regardless, we are currently convinced that rate problems are
somehow central to cluttering. There is the near universal
impression that clutterers try to talk too fast, so fast that their
speech intermittently breaks down. This explains the common clinical
impression that most cluttering disfluencies result from placing
excessive demands on the output capabilities of the speaker's
linguistic and other systems. Clutterers also tend to slur or omit
syllables of longer words, which compromise intelligibility during
spurts of rapid speech.

Many other symptoms have been reported in people who clutter. These
optional symptoms include: lack of awareness of the problem; family
history of fluency disorders; poor handwriting; confusing,
disorganized language or conversational skills; temporary
improvement when asked to "slow down" or "pay attention" to speech;
misarticulations; poor intelligibility; social or vocational
problems; distractibility; hyperactivity; auditory perceptual
difficulties; learning disabilities; and apraxia.

There are very few solid research data on cluttering. Our own
efforts have focused on acoustic and perceptual characteristics of
cluttered speech, but we have also explored some experimental
treatments. Our findings are preliminary and must be confirmed in
larger studies. Assuming that the scientific and clinical
communities will eventually agree on a definition of cluttering, we
are hopeful that a great deal more research will be forthcoming.

Evaluating Cluttering
The decision regarding whether or not cluttering is present must
consider whether a client manifests cluttering in a relatively pure
form or in conjunction with stuttering. In the latter case, it is
important to recognize that cluttering sometimes does not emerge as
a salient condition until stuttering has remitted, either
spontaneously or from treatment. Also, it is important to document
the possible presence of other coexisting communication, learning,
or attention deficit hyperactivity disorders.

In spite of the fact that we have tried to limit our definition to
essential symptoms, a wide range of potential cluttering symptoms
makes it important to search for many potential contributing
problems in clinical management of specific clients. The evaluation
is likely to require more than one session and may involve a
diagnostic team, including an SLP, audiologist, classroom teacher,
special educator, psychologist, and occasionally, neuropsychologist.

As in most speech-language evaluations, the case history should
include information regarding the primary reason for seeking the
evaluation, birth and developmental history, onset, course, past
treatment, family history of speech or language disorders, and prior
treatment. In addition, it should include questionnaire or interview
data on learning and behavioral problems in school or work settings,
given the likelihood of coexistence of cluttering with such
disorders as attention deficit hyperactivity disorders, learning
disabilities, and auditory processing disorders.

We recommend recording the clutterer in a variety of speaking tasks
(for subsequent analyses of fluency, rate, articulation, language,
and voice), including rote tasks (e.g., counting or reciting
memorized material), singing, imitation, oral reading, and
spontaneous speech. Older clutterers should read some words that are
difficult to pronounce (e.g., "statistics," "chrysanthemum") and
some with changing stress pattern sequences such as "apply,
application, applicable" (a_ply' / a_pli_ca'_tion /
a_pli'_ca_ble).
Also, it is important that the conversation allow assessment of
pragmatic language abilities.

We are experimenting with a software program, developed by Bakker,
which is designed to provide a measure of the percentage of total
speaking time cluttered. This global measure has considerable
potential for real-time judgments of a wide variety of cluttering
symptoms.

To determine if cluttering coexists with stuttering, we suggest
categorizing disfluencies using Campbell and Hill's Systematic
Disfluency Analysis. Typical non-stuttering categories include
hesitations, interjections, revisions, unfinished words, and phrase
repetitions. Typical stuttering categories are sound or syllable
repetitions, prolongations, or blocks. Word repetitions can belong
to either category. The clinician should determine the duration and
severity of disfluencies and identify accessory or secondary
behaviors.

Measuring speaking rate is especially important in cluttering.
Unfortunately, there are no established norms for comparing speakers
and speech across differences in age, task, familiarity with
content, length of utterance, and effectiveness of monitoring.
Currently, syllables per minute (SPM) is the most commonly used
measure. Average conversational rates for normal preschoolers are
reported to range from 110-180 SPM; for elementary aged children
from 140-200 SPM; and for adults from 180-220 SPM.

Clinicians interested in fluent speech will find "articulatory rate"
computed in syllables per second (SPS) to be more appropriate. SPS
rates are usually reported for standard diadochokinetic tasks, that
is, rapidly alternating productions of syllables such as "puh-tuh-
kuh." Typical adult articulatory rates range from 6-7 SPS in
conversation. Discounting pauses, SPS figures can be converted to
SPM. The SPM of clutterers typically are higher than the norms for
conversational speech reported above.

We suggest documenting rate differences between the clutterer's
slowest and most rapid speech and changes while speaking under
conditions of delayed auditory feedback (DAF) or trying to talk as
clearly as possible. A questionnaire regarding perceptions of
speaking difficulty (see Daly's adaptation of Woolf's
Perceptions of
Stuttering Inventory) can estimate a client's awareness of
fluency
or intelligibility problems. We also recommend adapting other
measures of stuttering—for example, the St. Louis Inventory of
Life
Perspectives and Stuttering—to assess the degree of penalty or
suffering that accrues from cluttering.

We suggest perceptual ratings, on 9-point scales, of short speech
samples for such dimensions as: intelligibility, naturalness,
overall speech rate, regularity of rate, disfluencies, overall
articulation accuracy, and pragmatic language appropriateness. An
oral examination that assesses oral-motor commands and
diadochokinetic tests should be given, such as the Oral Speech
Mechanism Screening Examination. Finally, the following measures
should typically be added to the "standard" fluency evaluation:
artic ulation testing, standardized and naturalistic language
assessment, and central auditory processing testing. Also, if
indicated, referrals for academic and/or cognitive testing should be
made.

Using Daly and Burnett's Checklist for Possible Cluttering can
alert
the clinician to a number of symptoms that are frequently observed
in cluttering, although we agree with the authors that the
instrument should not be used as the sole criterion for a diagnosis
of cluttering.

Treating Cluttering
Therapy for cluttering should be tailored to the client's unique
difficulties since there are few data available suggesting standard
procedures for treatment. Nevertheless, a number of therapeutic
strategies have been recommended over the years, many of which we
have found to be effective with specific clutterers. Importantly,
these include speech, language, and other skills that may affect the
clutterer's ability to communicate effectively. We have selected
common goals or principles for cluttering treatment and prioritized
them as follows: slowing rate; heightening monitoring; using clear
articulation; using acceptable, organized language; interacting with
listeners; speaking naturally; and reducing excessive disfluencies.
The following sections illustrate each principle.

Slowing Rate
Slowing, more than any other goal, can be effective in ameliorating
the entire range of cluttering symptoms. This may seem easy, but
SLPs should remember that it is much more difficult for a clutterer
to achieve and maintain a slow rate than for a normal speaker.
Whatever the difficulty, we believe that clinicians should persevere
until they find an effective strategy, remembering that simply
nagging a client to "slow down" is not helpful and perhaps
detrimental. Clinicians should also be aware that speech rate often
increases as the degree of emotionality of the topic increases.
Delayed auditory feedback is sometimes helpful in slowing rate and
may be worth trying. Another strategy is to point out rapid spurts
of speech as they occur, and to follow them with slower models for
the client to imitate. Clinicians can give "speeding tickets" to
help clients to remember to use a slower rate. Rapid, cluttered
speech segments can be tape recorded and then transcribed in written
form—with no spaces between the words—to highlight the need
to pause
between phrases and between some words.

For a clutterer who is weary of being reminded by others to "slow
down," slower speech may easily be achieved by matching the duration
of his production of a sentence to a prerecorded sentence model on a
device that can record and display electronically frequency and/or
intensity tracings over several seconds. By superimposing his
frequency or intensity tracing on that of the clinician, the client
can approximate the clinician's slow or normal rate.

Heightening Monitoring
Clutterers must often learn to monitor their speech. Many are unable
or reluctant to think about their speech, especially in the absence
of cues that might increase their attention to it when they are
speaking casually. Teaching a client to monitor effectively is not
easy; imagination and careful observation are essential to create or
select optimal strategies. All the rate reduction strategies (above)
require heightened monitoring. Analysis of videotaped or audiotaped
conversations can be used to identify places where monitoring
seemingly broke down. Adult clutterers can be asked to imagine
themselves speaking clearly prior to communication and use self-talk
and affirmation to strengthen those images. Clinicians can prepare
an audiotape for clients with samples of their worst, questionable,
and best examples of speech and then help them adopt a discipline of
listening to that tape several times a day to enhance monitoring.

Using Clear Articulation
Slowing the rate or learning to monitor more effectively often
results in clearer speech. If not, additional treatment is needed.
Systematic misarticulations should be targeted by conventional
articulation treatment strategies. Commonly, such errors have been
the focus of considerable (and often unsuccessful) prior treatment.
If so, cluttering treatment should aim to integrate learned changes
into the speech pattern. Sometimes, it is necessary to practice
short sentences to elicit the best compromise between unclear,
cluttered speech versus correct—but "over-articulated" and
unnatural—
speech. When multisyllabic words are "telescoped" by cluster
reductions or deletions of weak syllables, reading multisyllabic
words can help the clutterer learn to include "all the sounds."

Using Acceptable, Organized Language
Language treatment is recommended if the strategies described above
have not been fully effective. More syntactically acceptable
sentences and coherent narratives may be elicited by beginning with
simple, short sentences, and progressing to longer, more complex
ones. The clinician can transcribe some of the cluttered utterances,
show clients the "mazes" (i.e., run-on, rambling verbiage that adds
no useful information) within them, and ask them to repeat their
message including only the essential information (see the "maze"
example on p. 5). Similarly, clients may be taught to outline the
content (the "what") of the description or story, and then the form
(the "how") of the same message with all and only the necessary
words and explanations to make it clear. Some clutterers will need
considerable assistance and practice to learn to tell a story
logically and sequentially.

Interacting with Listeners
Clutterers often need training in anticipating, perceiving, and
responding to standard cues provided by listeners during
conversations. Training may need to start with rules for turn-taking
such as, "Talk while your partner listens; then listen while he
talks," and progress to learning to respond to such subtle signals
of confusion as the wrinkling of a listener's brow. Finally, the
clutterer can benefit from "checking in" periodically with the
listener by asking, "Did you get that?" or "Should I repeat that?"

Speaking Naturally
Rapid, irregular rates as well as slow, robotic rates are perceived
as unnatural. When indicated, we recommend teaching cluttering
clients to vary both syllable durations (especially stressed
syllables) and intonation contours. We provide immediate feedback
for speech that sounds artificial or strange. Imitating clinician
models of both intensity and frequency tracings on the
Visi-Pitch®,
in addition to helping slow the rate, can be effective in teaching a
speaker how to vary pitch and loudness in order to sound more
natural.

Reducing Excessive Disfluencies
Recalling that many clutterers also stutter, we assume that
stuttering, if present, will have been treated through conventional
therapies. Yet, paradoxically, we recommend that excessive
disfluencies should be the last aspect of speech to be targeted,
especially in clutterers with very little or no stuttering. After
targeting rate, monitoring, articulation, and language, if
cluttering disfluencies persist, they should also be targeted in
treatment. In these cases, we recommend fluency shaping strategies
to reduce the occurrence of disfluencies to an acceptable level.

These are therapeutic goals of the SLP. Clutterers may well present
with other problems. Who deals with them is as much a matter of
tradition as expertise. In school children, SLPs will ordinarily
invoke the expertise of the learning disabilities specialist, the
behavior disorders specialist, or the school psychologist. Options
are fewer for adults who clutter. In such cases, SLPs will often do
these things themselves or refer clients to literacy tutors and
other specialists.

As cluttering becomes more widely recognized, we can expect to see
more clutterers populating caseloads of SLPs. If so, clinicians will
face continuing challenges to identify symptoms and apply effective
treatments for this disorder. Our long-term goal has been to "put
cluttering on the map" such that, first and foremost, a consensus on
a standard definition of cluttering will emerge. After that occurs,
we believe that improved understanding of the incidence, cause,
diagnosis, and treatment of cluttering will no doubt follow.



Kenneth O. St. Louis, professor at West Virginia University, is a
Board Recognized Specialist in Fluency Disorders and an associate
editor of the Journal of Fluency Disorders. He has focused on
research, clinical management, and teaching in fluency disorders for
more than 30 years and has carried out research on cluttering for
nearly 20 years. Contact him by e-mail at kstlouis@....

Lawrence J. Raphael teaches in the Department of Communication
Sciences and Disorders at Adelphi University. He has published
research on the acoustics, physiology, and perception of speech and
is a co-author of Speech Science Primer (4th ed.) and co-editor of
Language and Cognition and Producing Speech. Contact him by e-mail
at raphael@....

Florence L. Myers, professor at Adelphi University, has presented
numerous papers on cluttering and childhood stuttering. She has co-
authored books, book chapters and journal articles on fluency and
its disorders. She is a former associate editor of the  Journal of
Fluency Disorders. Contact her by e-mail at
fmyers@....

Klaas Bakker of Southwest Missouri State University has specialized
in fluency disorders (stuttering and cluttering) since the early
1980s. His research has emphasized assessment and measurement of
aspects of speech fluency and rate. He is an associate editor of the
Journal of Fluency Disorders and a Board Recognized Specialist in
Fluency Disorders. Contact him by e-mail at KlaasBakker@....

The following is something that I wrote for a stuttering board that
I belong to, and even though it deals with a stuttering component, I
thought it might be interesting to you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm not totally cured from all speech problems, just stuttering.
I've been diagnosed with cluttering, which sounds a lot like
stuttering to the non-SLP.  Also, I want to add a disclaimer that I
don't think that there is a cure-all for all stuttering problems.  I
just want to talk about what worked for me, because it might be
helpful for someone.

I had a stuttering component, and maybe to explain, I'll explain the
difference between cluttering and stuttering.  Stuttering is mostly
a physical problem, where you know what you want to say, but are
unable to say it.  Cluttering is an organizational problem, where
you don't really know what you want to say.

Stutterer: "I want to go to the sssssssssstore and I don't have muh-
muh- muh-muh-money."

Clutterer: "I want to go to the st...uh...place where you
buy...market st-st-store and I don't have muh-muh ti-ti-time money."

Most people with speech problems at least have a little bit of
overlap between these two disorders.

Well, anyway, back to how I cured my stuttering...

I have had repeated thought patterns from a young age.  Usually
these deal with when I'm angry about someone, and want to talk with
them, but they aren't right in front of me.  I usually stew about
what to say to them, and I work out what it is that I want to say to
them in a pretend conversation in my head.  Usually these
conversations would be me coming up with witty put-downs of the
other person, because they had offended me.  I would say these
things in my head with a lot of emphasis, intonation, and just
really stick it to the other person, in my head, with my pretend
speech.

But, then, when the actual situation came up for me to talk with the
person, the things that I had thought in my head were just too
unreasonable to actually say, and so I ended up not being able to
say what I had practiced in my head.  Then, I would not be able to
get out what was in my head, and I stuttered.

That is the extreme example of when I stuttered, but it actually
happened all of the time, because I would practice in my head what I
wanted to say before I said it, and I had difficulty because I could
see the words in my head, but could not get them out.  I think that
in regular practice, the speech that was in my head had much more
emphasis and intonation than what actually came out.  I'm a pretty
monotone speaker, also, and so when I speak with any kind of
intonation, it is out of the ordinary for me.

Well, I decided to get rid of my repeating thought paterns (pre-
planning speeches about stuff I was emotional about), because I
attributed that to the reason that I was a clutterer, or that was
why I first developed cluttering.  It took a couple of months, but I
was able to mostly get rid of the repeating thoughts.  I did this by
asking myself the question: "What am I really trying to accomplish
with this pretend conversation?" I did this when I found myself
repeatedly preplaying a conversation.  I then figured out what the
answer was to what I was trying to accomplish, and I concentrated on
that instead.

Well, a side benefit was that I have pretty much gotten rid of my
stuttering component.  I am left wondering why this got rid of my
stuttering.  I think that for me there was a huge disconnect between
the way I was trying to say something and what actually came out.
Mostly it was intonation and emphasis, but sometimes it was words or
phrases that I wasn't comfortable saying.  I must have been nervous,
or something, as I tried to say what I wanted to say, but in reality
it was too much emphasis, or weird wording, or just that I was
uncomfortable saying what I had preplanned.  That caused me to not
be able to say what it was that I had in my head, and that
difficulty of not getting the words out was my stuttering.

Part of what happened is that I now pre-plan speech much less than I
used to.  Instead, I now focus on what I want to accomplish from
speaking, rather than individual words, and that is what I believe
cured my stuttering.  I hope that this discussion is helpful to
people on this board.

I'm still working on my cluttering, and I still sound like the
example that I sighted above.  I'm also wondering if anyone on this
board has a cluttering component, and if so, I invite them to join
the cluttering group of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cluttering/

Something else that I think is relevent to this, that I have found:
stutterers and really good public speakers are the only people who
are acutely aware of their disfluencies.  Most everyone has regular,
but limited disfluencies.  However, most people don't recognize any
of their disfluencies.

----- Original Message -----

From: Kissag

To: cluttering@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 2:17 PM

Subject: Fw: [cluttering] Re: Greetings,

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Kissag

To: cluttering@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 9:58 AM

Subject: Re: [cluttering] Re: Greetings,

Greetings,

 

How is the spam getting through to the group, the membership is by invitation only? I resigned from another yahoo group because of this.

 

There must be a way to eliminate spam and trolls from getting through to members.

 

Unfortunately cluttering is mostly misunderstood, whilst stammering (stuttering) is widely known, I have had to endure years of ridicule, torment, frustration and trying to find some way to improve my speech.

 

I am 55 married and am retired on ill health if you see my site you will realise why.

 

Can you tell me how many people are in this group, about yourself, where you are from, when was the group formed, how you found my email address etc?

 

Even speech therapists were unwilling or unable to help me, after years of helping myself to overcome the problem, I still fall down and as you will be aware this is very frustrating and embarrassing.

 

I too would like to raise the awareness of cluttering but people do not know that it exists never mind that people suffer from it. I have had all the excuses that I am not normal, I talk like I do coz I want to, I must have a mental problem, I cant have had a good education, there must be something wrong with me coz I cant write properly, I am not very intelligent, yes I have had them all and more!

 

I find it extremely difficult to initiate a conversation, unless I have a lead factor, I find it as difficult to keep a conversation going at times unless I have a prompt, I forget word, I forget what I was going to say, I forget the question sometimes of what I am asked.

 

Maybe I was born without a specific piece of brain that people need, who knows!

 

 

Peter

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Hi

I currently work for an independent television company called
LANDMARK FILMS, in Oxford, England. WE are trying to put together a 3
part series on unusual conditions or illnesses.

I have been very interested in various speech/voice disorders, and
have been looking at cluttering.

Do you or someone you know clutter? I would be interested to hear
more about how it has effected your life? Is it always obvious to
those around you?

Please email me directly on - emma@... or check out our
website at www.landmarkfilms.com. OR ring 01865 427301 or if ringing
outside UK +44 1865 427301

Best Wishes

EMMA GODDARD
LANDMARK FILMS

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Dewey

To: cluttering@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 8:09 AM

Subject: [cluttering] Re: Request for clutterers for TV documentary

That is very interesting about your brother's speech.

It shows the following elements of cluttering:
-Poor word-finding ability: because he was searching for the right
word, such as using "higher," which really expresses a bunch of
ideas, either being hired, or getting higher as far as employment
status.
-Repetitions: you repeated the initial "the" as the only repetition,
but most clutterers would have more repetitions.
-Slurs words:
-Poor organization:
-Not completing a thought before moving on to the next thought
-Ability in mathematics and abstract reasoning: His ability in web
development.
-Many filler words:
-Trying to express a bunch of ideas at once:

Also, that is very interesting that you are a hypnotherapist,
because I'm guessing that the quality of your voice is extremely
important in hypnotherapy.

Do you find that you need to concentrate on what you are saying as
you are performing hypnotherapy?  And do you find that you are able
to drastically improve the quality of your voice for when you are
performing hypnotherapy?

Another question: Why did you decide to improve your speech?

> Listening to my brother speak, he tends to ramble like
this:  "the...erm.. the ... what's it.. you know.. it's like when
you're trying to get higher in your job.... but .... you don't know
what you're going to get higher from... it's like ... if someone
gives you a piece of work.. errrrr..... then you can say ..like.. .
you've done that piece of work.. .but if no-ones going to give you
that piece of work .. then how can you get higher?"

--- In cluttering@yahoogroups.com, "Lyndon Garvey" <lyndon@h...>
wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
>
> Thanks for the invitation to join this group.
>
> I'm not sure whether I suffer / suffered from cluttering, but I
had some serious problems with my speech, which now seem to be
improving no end.
>
> I even went to the library to study books on speech language
pathology and see if I could find out what was going on, not just
for me but for my brother as well. 
>
> Anyway, at first I thought I was dyslexic, but then realised that
I don't really have too many problems reading.  I can read pretty
well, but it can be quite disfluent if I have to read aloud.  Then I
stumbled across some information on ADHD and this seemed to be a
much better fit to the problems I'd been experiencing.  In the
library I managed to find a book by D. Weiss, written in the 60s,
entitled "cluttering".  It's all I could find.  But it's interesting
how this book talks about the main problem of the clutter being
attentional difficulties as well as a central language imbalance. 
It actually sounded a lot like ADHD to me.
>
> So, not knowing how to proceed with the cluttering issues I
decided to go and get myself checked out by an ADHD specialist, and
I was (and most of my family) diagnosed with ADHD.  I must say that
the response to medication has been quite incredible.  My speaking
ability has improved no end.  I think this must be due to the
reduction of anxiety (ADHD meds are anxiolytic) and from the
improved concentration.  I'd really love to check out some modern
texts on Cluttering, preferably something written in the last year
or so to see what they say about ADHD and cluttering, it would be
great also to actually hear someone who has been diagnosed with
Cluttering speak, because I may be totally off mark here and may
have something compeletely different.  Interestingly enough, my
psych hadn't really heard of verbal dysfluency being that common
with ADHD, but there are plenty of websites that talk about verbal
fluency problems and how they tend to improve slowly on the
medication.
>
> I'm perhaps more aware of how my brother speaks than myself,
especially when he's tired.  He tends to garble his words, finds it
difficult to keep track of what he's saying, finds it difficult
finding the right words, slurrs his words, etc.  He doesn't speed up
though, which is something I used to do.  I would speak faster and
faster until BANG I think I'd become so anxious and worked up that
I'd completely lose track of what I was saying and actually find it
difficult to get my train of thought back again.
>
> Listening to my brother speak, he tends to ramble like
this:  "the...erm.. the ... what's it.. you know.. it's like when
you're trying to get higher in your job.... but .... you don't know
what you're going to get higher from... it's like ... if someone
gives you a piece of work.. errrrr..... then you can say ..like.. .
you've done that piece of work.. .but if no-ones going to give you
that piece of work .. then how can you get higher?"
>
> Typical rambling when he's not in the good state, mentally.  That
would be him talking about trying to get into web development via
developing a portfolio of freelance work to prove his commercial
effectiveness as a webdesigner.
>
> On top of this, I'm actually a Hypnotherapist.  And I'm
investigating the use of analytical hypnotherapy for fast resolution
of stuttering (i'm actually working with a stuttering client at the
moment and we've so far managed to find that he didn't stutter at
all below the age of 8, so we are looking for a root cause), and the
use of Cognitive methods, particularly of Rational Emotive
Behavioural Therapy to overcome the negative effects on self-esteem
and the anxiety that is caused by dysfluency, which also causes
dysfluency. Also, I've been working with positive visualisation and
this seems to really help me if I keep it up. 
>
> All-in-all I'm fascinated by problems of verbal dysfluency
cluttering and stuttering, perhaps because I've spent so much time
investigating it to try and resolve my own problems.  Interestingly,
I recently worked with a client who had a dysfleuncy problem but not
with speech.  He was learning to use sign language and found he
would not be able to articule himself using sign language, and he
would be overly dysfluent, and signing would be awkard and
hesitant.  Using daily positive visualisation we were able to get
him to make some good progess, and to be more spontaneous and fluent.
>
> Anyways, enough rambling for me! =)
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Lyndon Garvey
> DipCAH, CH, MPNLP, MNCH(Reg)
> Clinical Hypnotherapist
>
> Tel: 0845 450 0832



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cluttering-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

That is very interesting about your brother's speech.

It shows the following elements of cluttering:
-Poor word-finding ability: because he was searching for the right
word, such as using "higher," which really expresses a bunch of
ideas, either being hired, or getting higher as far as employment
status.
-Repetitions: you repeated the initial "the" as the only repetition,
but most clutterers would have more repetitions.
-Slurs words:
-Poor organization:
-Not completing a thought before moving on to the next thought
-Ability in mathematics and abstract reasoning: His ability in web
development.
-Many filler words:
-Trying to express a bunch of ideas at once:

Also, that is very interesting that you are a hypnotherapist,
because I'm guessing that the quality of your voice is extremely
important in hypnotherapy.

Do you find that you need to concentrate on what you are saying as
you are performing hypnotherapy?  And do you find that you are able
to drastically improve the quality of your voice for when you are
performing hypnotherapy?

Another question: Why did you decide to improve your speech?

> Listening to my brother speak, he tends to ramble like
this:  "the...erm.. the ... what's it.. you know.. it's like when
you're trying to get higher in your job.... but .... you don't know
what you're going to get higher from... it's like ... if someone
gives you a piece of work.. errrrr..... then you can say ..like.. .
you've done that piece of work.. .but if no-ones going to give you
that piece of work .. then how can you get higher?"

--- In cluttering@yahoogroups.com, "Lyndon Garvey" <lyndon@h...>
wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
>
> Thanks for the invitation to join this group.
>
> I'm not sure whether I suffer / suffered from cluttering, but I
had some serious problems with my speech, which now seem to be
improving no end.
>
> I even went to the library to study books on speech language
pathology and see if I could find out what was going on, not just
for me but for my brother as well.
>
> Anyway, at first I thought I was dyslexic, but then realised that
I don't really have too many problems reading.  I can read pretty
well, but it can be quite disfluent if I have to read aloud.  Then I
stumbled across some information on ADHD and this seemed to be a
much better fit to the problems I'd been experiencing.  In the
library I managed to find a book by D. Weiss, written in the 60s,
entitled "cluttering".  It's all I could find.  But it's interesting
how this book talks about the main problem of the clutter being
attentional difficulties as well as a central language imbalance.
It actually sounded a lot like ADHD to me.
>
> So, not knowing how to proceed with the cluttering issues I
decided to go and get myself checked out by an ADHD specialist, and
I was (and most of my family) diagnosed with ADHD.  I must say that
the response to medication has been quite incredible.  My speaking
ability has improved no end.  I think this must be due to the
reduction of anxiety (ADHD meds are anxiolytic) and from the
improved concentration.  I'd really love to check out some modern
texts on Cluttering, preferably something written in the last year
or so to see what they say about ADHD and cluttering, it would be
great also to actually hear someone who has been diagnosed with
Cluttering speak, because I may be totally off mark here and may
have something compeletely different.  Interestingly enough, my
psych hadn't really heard of verbal dysfluency being that common
with ADHD, but there are plenty of websites that talk about verbal
fluency problems and how they tend to improve slowly on the
medication.
>
> I'm perhaps more aware of how my brother speaks than myself,
especially when he's tired.  He tends to garble his words, finds it
difficult to keep track of what he's saying, finds it difficult
finding the right words, slurrs his words, etc.  He doesn't speed up
though, which is something I used to do.  I would speak faster and
faster until BANG I think I'd become so anxious and worked up that
I'd completely lose track of what I was saying and actually find it
difficult to get my train of thought back again.
>
> Listening to my brother speak, he tends to ramble like
this:  "the...erm.. the ... what's it.. you know.. it's like when
you're trying to get higher in your job.... but .... you don't know
what you're going to get higher from... it's like ... if someone
gives you a piece of work.. errrrr..... then you can say ..like.. .
you've done that piece of work.. .but if no-ones going to give you
that piece of work .. then how can you get higher?"
>
> Typical rambling when he's not in the good state, mentally.  That
would be him talking about trying to get into web development via
developing a portfolio of freelance work to prove his commercial
effectiveness as a webdesigner.
>
> On top of this, I'm actually a Hypnotherapist.  And I'm
investigating the use of analytical hypnotherapy for fast resolution
of stuttering (i'm actually working with a stuttering client at the
moment and we've so far managed to find that he didn't stutter at
all below the age of 8, so we are looking for a root cause), and the
use of Cognitive methods, particularly of Rational Emotive
Behavioural Therapy to overcome the negative effects on self-esteem
and the anxiety that is caused by dysfluency, which also causes
dysfluency. Also, I've been working with positive visualisation and
this seems to really help me if I keep it up.
>
> All-in-all I'm fascinated by problems of verbal dysfluency
cluttering and stuttering, perhaps because I've spent so much time
investigating it to try and resolve my own problems.  Interestingly,
I recently worked with a client who had a dysfleuncy problem but not
with speech.  He was learning to use sign language and found he
would not be able to articule himself using sign language, and he
would be overly dysfluent, and signing would be awkard and
hesitant.  Using daily positive visualisation we were able to get
him to make some good progess, and to be more spontaneous and fluent.
>
> Anyways, enough rambling for me! =)
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Lyndon Garvey
> DipCAH, CH, MPNLP, MNCH(Reg)
> Clinical Hypnotherapist
>
> Tel: 0845 450 0832

Marjore, thanks so much for your post.

From the e-mails that I've shared with Emma, it seems that they are
looking for any information about cluttering.  So, I think that it
would be very interesting for them any information about children
with cluttering.  I think they are still in the information
gathering stage.  Emma's e-mail is emma@..., if you
would like to contact her.

I'm very interested in how speech therapy has worked for your
daughter, and how they made the diagnosis for cluttering.  With me,
they had never seen a cluttering case before, and were pulling out
old textbooks to figure out how to deal with it, and so I'm
wondering if your daughter got more knowledgeable therapy.

Also, is she a pure clutterer, or does she also have a stuttering
component?

Let us know if there is anything that we can do to help, or if you
are looking for advice, or how to deal with certain issues.  Thanks
again.

Joseph

--- In cluttering@yahoogroups.com, "spam@b..." <margalitc@y...>
wrote:

> Does anyone know if they only want to speak to, or listen to, as
> the case may be, adult clutters? I ask because I have an 11 yr
> old daughter who is a clutterer (my reason for being on this
> list) and I'd LOVE to have a more widespread understanding of
> why/how this problem affects her ability to learn in the same
> manner as "normal" kids. Cluttering has really been an issue,
> especially since she has fairly severe word finding issues, and
> tends to get completely lost in her ability to tell you
> something she finds important to relate because she just can't
> get the correct words, so says a lot of "and yeah" which just
> ends the story. I'm always totally lost as to what she's
> actually trying to tell me. This happens often in school and it
> tends to have a very negative affect on her classroom behaviour,
> even though this is all mentioned in her IEP as something to be
> aware of.
>
> Marjorie
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
> http://companion.yahoo.com/

--- Joseph Dewey <joseph_dewey@...> wrote:
> I got the following e-mail about a possible UK television
> documentary.  Let me know if you'd like to get in touch with
> Emma.

Does anyone know if they only want to speak to, or listen to, as
the case may be, adult clutters? I ask because I have an 11 yr
old daughter who is a clutterer (my reason for being on this
list) and I'd LOVE to have a more widespread understanding of
why/how this problem affects her ability to learn in the same
manner as "normal" kids. Cluttering has really been an issue,
especially since she has fairly severe word finding issues, and
tends to get completely lost in her ability to tell you
something she finds important to relate because she just can't
get the correct words, so says a lot of "and yeah" which just
ends the story. I'm always totally lost as to what she's
actually trying to tell me. This happens often in school and it
tends to have a very negative affect on her classroom behaviour,
even though this is all mentioned in her IEP as something to be
aware of.

Marjorie


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
http://companion.yahoo.com/

I got the following e-mail about a possible UK television
documentary.  Let me know if you'd like to get in touch with Emma.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Joe,

When I got a request about interviewing someone who clutters by Emma
Goddard, I immediately thought of you since you are interested in
increasing public awareness of this fairly rare fluency disorder. Of
course, since we have not met or talked, I cannot confirm that you,
in fact, are a clutterer, but I presume that you are.

You can read the attached message thread to learn what this is all
about. If you are interested in pursuing the *possibility* of a TV
interview on cluttering, please reply directly to Emma. (Kindly copy
your message to me so I will be aware of your thinking.) If not,
simply delete this message. I will probably continue to think about
some other cluttering individuals she might contact as well.

I hope this is clear. If not, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Best wishes,

Ken

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: "Emma Goddard"
To: "'Kenneth St. Louis'"
Subject: RE: UK documentary and Speech/Voice Disorders/Cluttering
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:56:51 -0000

Dear Ken

Thanks so much for responding to my request.

It does seem that trying to get a few cases of cluttering is going
to be a bit tricky. However, I will persist for a bit longer!

I would be very grateful if you could forward my details to any of
the US clutterers you know. I spoke to a lady here in the UK
(regarding something completely different), who sounds like she
clutters because she speaks very fast and garbled (you cannot
understand a word), but then she takes a breath and th can sound ok.
However, I am not too sure whether this is because she has a high
palate, and her jaw is quite enlarged. So it could be to do with
other physical problems....?

It would be great if you could forward my details onto the gentleman
you have recently communicated with and anyone else.  At the moment,
the documentary is not set in stone, because we first of all have to
convince our broadcaster, Channel 5 that a programme on speech
disorders is worth doing. So if you could let the clutterers you
speak to know that this is still at the devlopmental stage....

I hope this makes sense. Look forward to hearing from you soon...

Kind Regards
Emma Goddard
Landmark Films

-----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth St. Louis
To: Emma Goddard
Subject: Re: UK documentary and Speech/Voice Disorders/Cluttering

Dear Emma,

Thank you for your message and consideration of doing a documentary
on cluttering.

You are right. It is hard to find people who clutter and perhaps
even harder to find those who might be able to illustrate clearly
some of the problems involved. As you may or may not have learned by
now, in short audio or video clips, clutterers often sound and
appear quite normal. In addition, many are only vaguely aware of
their speech difficulties.

I do know a few clutterers in the USA who might be interested, and I
suspect that my colleague Florence Myers in New York would know
several more. I will copy this to Dr. Myers so you can contact her
if you wish. I am not acquainted with any clutterers in the UK,
unfortunately.

I was recently been contacted by a gentleman who reports that he
clutters (although I have not met him personally). He mentioned to
me that he is interested in trying to increase public awareness of
cluttering. This is the first time I have communicated with a
clutterer about this issue.

Finally, of course, I would be happy to offer what insights I may
have to your documentary as well.

Let me know if you think any of these options could be helpful, and
I will try to help you proceed.

With kind regards,

Ken St. Louis

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Prof Kenneth O. St Louis

Please excuse me for contacting you out of the blue like this but I
wonder if you would be able to help with some research.  I am
currently working on a 3 part television series for Channel 5 (UK
terrestrial channel). Channel 5 have asked us to prepare a series on
EXTRAORDINARY ILLNESSES/CONDITIONS.

The idea is that in each programme we will feature, in a very
sensitive and sympathetic way, how the condition affects the lives
of people with the particular condition. We would also like to show
the therapist/doctor involved with the patient manages or treats the
condition over a period of time. The main criteria is that the
condition is quite rare or unusual to see, and that there is patient
with an interesting experience to follow. As a result I have been
looking at various conditions which are visible and easily filmed.
i.e they have to be conditions which can be quickly seen as strange
or unusual by the television viewer. Speech and voice disorders very
obviously effect people on a day to day level. We aim to then film
active cases, and illustrate how it impacts on their everyday life.

I am trying to find ONE more unusual illness and am considering some
more extreme speech or voice disorders. I am keen to contact people
with CLUTTERING to discuss how their speech condition restricts them
in many everyday ways. >From what I have read, you seem to be the
expert on Cluttering! I am very keen to speak top some sufferers -
but they are quite few and far between. Do you know of any sufferers
I could contact either in USA or UK? Maybe you could you recommend
cluttering experts or support groups in the UK?

I would be so very grateful for any advice of where to search or who
to speak to, especially in the UK. Feel free to email me.

Many thanks for your consideration. I look forward to hearing from
you soon.

Emma Goddard
Assistant Producer
Landmark Films

Thanks for the introduction.  Please don't resign from the group.  I
have to erase the spam messages every other week or so.  I'm glad to
have you in the group, and please share your experiences.

I'm trying to raise cluttering awareness, so I would be very
appreciative of any ideas that you have for this.

--- In cluttering@yahoogroups.com, "Kissag" <peter@k...> wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I will keep my initial mail short just to introduce myself.
>
> Great, thanks for the info, it has been very hard to find much
information on cluttering, I have cluttered for years and it has
really impeded my education and employment.
>
> I am a founder member of the Hull Stammerers group which was
formed in 1998 with three others who stammer, this has helped me to
make some progress through the years.
>
> As well as cluttering I have many other health problems also, but
cluttering is one of the most difficult to live with.
>
> Be good to hear other people talk about their experiences.
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter
>
> www.kissag.co.uk
> www.speakingout.org.uk
> www.hull-me.co.uk

The following is an article I wrote about childhood cluttering from
and adult perspective

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Cluttering is a speech disorder with a ton of symptoms.  Symptoms
range from very fast speech, to reading and writing disabilities, to
disorganization in thought and speech, to pauses that are too short
and too long, lack of music ability, disorganization and messiness,
short attention span, lack of awareness of a cluttering problem,
excessive disfluencies, and a whole slew of other things.  Each of
these symptoms describe me dead on, and it can be really
overwhelming to deal with so many different symptoms.  I would also
guess that with a young child, that a lot of these symptoms haven't
yet developed.

My thoughts, which I will explain below, is that these symptoms are
just that--symptoms.  I think that therapy (even though that is a
strong word) should center around the problem, and not the
symptoms.  As an example, fast speech as a symptom...if you treat
fast speech, then you seem to cure the pauses, the attention span,
the disorganization, and the disfluencies.  However, since this
doesn't get at what I think is the problem, then it only helps, and
does not cure.

I read in a book that if a child doesn't speak until 3, then they
will develop cluttering.  I also read that cluttering is natural in
children ages 2-4.  I think I can explain this in the next paragraph.

There is a disconnect between the thought centers of the brain and
the speech centers of the brain.  Or, they are two different centers
of the brain, that should normally interact well.  An example
exercise that you can do to show this is:  1) Think of a 5-7 word
sentence, that you will say, but don't say it yet.  2) Make sure
that you have each of the words in your mind that you are about to
say.  3) Say the sentence that you had in your mind.

This probably seems like a goofy exercise, but what you have just
done is to manually disconnect the two centers of thought and
speech.  Usually, in normal speech, you wouln't even think about the
words that you say before they come out.  And, you would be very
fluent in saying the words.  What you do normally, when you are
fluent, and when you don't think about the actual words shows that
your two centers work well together.  In the clutterer, the two
centers don't work well together.  There is a disconnect, just like
in the exercise that I had you do.

This disconnect is what I think the root cause is.  For example,
fast speech.  In a clutterer, the clutterer will think about what to
say, which is in the thought center, and then will dump everything
over into the speech center.  This "dump" results in speech that is
too fast, because the two centers aren't working together.

I'm not sure if that makes sense, but fixing this disconnect will
get rid of the symptoms.

Also, I mentioned that I read that cluttering is normal in children
ages 2-4, and it makes sense that there would be a time in childhood
development where children haven't yet developed a good link between
the thought center of the brain and the speech center of the brain.
So, I think that is a good, healthy way of looking at cluttering,
that it is a natural developmental process that people just have to
go through.

Now, my solution for fixing the disconnect.  It is what I call the
outlining process, and is similar to an outlining process that you
would go through to perform a 10-minute speech in front of a group.

Here is another question for you to do just as an exercise to
understand my point: Tell me in detail the process that you go
through in your mind, in formulating an answer to a complex
question, before you start giving the actual answer.

I think that is a question that true adult clutterers cannot
answer.  Or, that the answer would be so embarrassing, because that
question cuts to heart of the problem of the disconnect between the
thought and speech centers of the brain, and exposes that those
centers are not well connected.

That question would have been horrible for me to answer about a year
ago.  I still don't have an answer besides, "I don't really have a
process that I go through."  But, I have asked a ton of people that
question, and that is what I have formulated as the outlining
process.  I think it might be very informative for you, too, to ask
people that you consider to be good speakers that question.

Like I said, the outlining process is very similar to what you
normally would go through in coming up with a 10-minute speech.
There are three steps, 1) Coming up with a central theme, that your
whole speech is centered around, 2) brainstorming, and 3) organizing
your brainstorming into an outline with main points and subpoints,
and working out specific phrases that are important to get "just
right."

I use the 10-minute speech as an example, because I think that the
outlining process of a speech is what normally happens, but an
example that explodes that normal occurance into a hugely detailed
process.  In normal, non-cluttered speech, the speaker goes through
a version of this that usually takes only 1/2 second to 2 seconds to
do this.  Or, think of talking to your best friend, and they ask you
a question--you are going through an outlining process already, but
it happens extremely fast.  The 10-minute speech example just helps
to really detail the steps that normally happen in that quick 1/2
second.

So, I think that is the cure, the thing that helps to link up the
two speech centers of the brain, and the thing that will eventually
eliminate all of the symptoms of cluttering, is to develop within
the clutterer the ability to use the outlining process in everyday
speech.

This is something that I think would be helpful to children anyway,
and I think that in identifying this, that there has to be a way to
teach it in a very positive, rather than traumatic way.  For people
with good teaching skills, I would be very interested if you are
able to find ways to teach this outlining process in a positive
way.  Initial thoughts that I had were 1) making speech organization
into a game, 2) doing an activity with the whole family, that didn't
single out the clutterer, that teaches organization, and 3) doing
family activities where everyone gives pre-planned speeches (so, a
two-part activity of first speech planning, and then speaking).

I think it would be helpful to teach preschool to 3rd graders the
outlining process as part of the regular grade school curriculum.  I
also think that this could be a key way to improve awareness of
cluttering, because right now there isn't much awareness of
cluttering.  One of my lifelong quests is to improve awareness of
cluttering, and I think that may be the best angle to take, because
if teachers in schools are aware of it, and were advocates about
eliminating cluttering at an early age, then it would make it much,
much easier to have cluttering get more recognition on a SLP level.

I also think that this outlining process can be helpful to anyone.
I'm taking a public speaking class as a night school class in
college, and that outlining process is basically what they are
teaching there.  I think that there really is no reason to wait
until college, learning the elements of public speaking should
really be possible from an extremely early age, if it is taught
right.  I would also be really interested if anyone could help me to
rough out my ideas about this angle, because I'm not entirely sure
of stuff like how early this really could be beneficial, even though
I know it could be beneficial if taught at an early age.

Those are my thoughts.  Hopefully this discussion helps you to come
up with really positive activities for children so that they outgrow
cluttering in a natural way.  Please also let me know what you think

One other random thought, which is spurred by a desire to have
positive corrections to cluttering--even though this thought kind of
goes against what I said of "don't treat the symptom, treat the
problem."  I really don't like music, and lack of music ability is
one of the symptoms of cluttering.  I think it's too late for me to
change that too much, since I'm 32.  I've also noticed that my
siblings who love music are the most fluent.  I've got a brother who
does singing performance, who is almost identical to me in almost
all ways but singing, but he isn't a clutterer, and I think that his
love for music may have indirectly helped a lot with his speech
fluency.

I mention this, because, especially at a young age, there are a lot
of really positive things that a parent can do to encourage a child
to love music, such as praising them whenever they incoherently bang
on the piano, buying them toy musical instruments, and doing sing-
alongs with the family.  And, like I said, this would be treating a
symptom, but I think there is a ton of stuff to learn from music, so
it couldn't hurt anyway.

Thanks,

Joseph

Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the
cluttering group:

Who are you?

   o Someone who clutters
   o A friend of a clutterer
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clutterers
   o Someone who doesn't know anything about cluttering


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Thanks!