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#46543 From: fwnash@...
Date: Wed Nov 4, 2009 7:45 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)
daz0463
Send Email Send Email
 

This letter, published in the S&D Reflector in Dec 1969, was written by the mayor of Pittsburgh to recognize six steamboat captains and their vessels for their service to the country. 

 

                                 Pittsburgh, PA,

                                 Feb 19th, 1862

 

I desire that the captains of the following

steamers be placed on record for the patriotic

and liberal (volunteering) of their services

and boats, without renumeration, to proceed

immediately to the Cumberland River to relieve

the sick and wounded soldiers:  Rocket, Capt

Wolf; Clara Poe, Capt Poe, Horizon, Capt

Stockdale; Emma, Capt Maratta; Westmorland,

Capt Evans; Sir William Wallace, Capt Hugh

Campbell.

 

                                B. C. Sawyer, Jr., Mayor.

 

 

My search for the original letter has failed to date.  To whom the letter was addressed is unknown.  What words were replaced?  The subject of the paragraph in the S&D Reflector was salaries of the captains of the steamers during the war.  Apparently, boats and crews who worked for no salary were not uncommon especially when pressed to service.

 

The letter was also interesting from the steamer point of view.  Three boats were destroyed during the war.  In Jan 1865, the Emma collided with the Louisville ferry.  Both vessels were disabled and both floated helplessly over the falls.  A dramatic ending for the Emma.   The Clara Poe, bound for Nashville with supplies, was burned on 17 Apr 1865 by rebels along the Cumberland River.  That date was curious.  Hostilities in the west continued for about thirty days after Appomattox.  While running at night without lights, the Horizon collided with the Moderator near Vicksburg on 1 May 1863 resulting in the deaths of many soldiers.

 

All six boats were built and manned from the Pittsburgh region.  The Clara Poe and the Horizon were owned and operated by my guys from Georgetown, PA. 

 

Another description of the impact of the Civil War on river commerce is found in a brief editorial - The Golden Age of Steamboating.  If the hyperlink fails, the web page is:

 

 http://georgetownsteamboats.com/gs/the-golden-age-of-steamboating/

 

Research on RR capabilities during the Civil War continues. 

Fran Nash

 

 

 

 


----- Original Message -----
From: fwnash@...
To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 4, 2009 12:21:32 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)



Mr K



Wonderful story.   Thanks for sharing.   I often wonder what our great great grandchildren will think of our lives and artifacts.  



 

Your phrase “marched along the RR towards Vicksburg ” peaked my interest.   As you are probably aware, my  interest involves inland river steamboats from 1850-1870.   I am also interested in Civil War railroads in Pittsburgh .   There is a CWWT topic “Railroads” dated 20 Oct 2002.   After I read the entries, I may throw out another possibly nutty idea .  



 

Speaking of crazy, did we reach any conclusion on where the war was won, and who won it?   Vicksburg and the Pook Turtles or Pittsburgh and the rivermen or?!?  Currently, t he topic has more than sixty entries and, in my opinion, the discussion h as been  quite interesting and entertaining .  

Fran Nash










----- Original Message -----
From: "edkiniry" <wah_mei_1388@...>
To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2009 12:35:53 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)

Thank you for asking. The story is in a small notebook that my mother used as a diary and a record of her collage days, about 1918. I found this story under a heading "Stories my father told me about the Civil War."I will parapharase.

I took sick after Shiloh and was sent to a hospital in Mound City. after a few weeks I wanted to return to my unit but the doctors thought I should still nurse. I found two soldiers who wanted to stay and nurse but were to be released and did not want to go. Me and my partner changed names with them and we left. We were traveling to the unit, in Tennessee, when we were caught by the sentries. we were taken before General Grant for a disposition. He said to the sentries "These boys are all right, let them return to their unit, but you shall make sure they get there." They joined the battery in time for Grant's march along the RR toward Vicksburg, and fell back when Van Dorn raided their supply depot at Holly Springs.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, swapped identities, a meeting of two privates under guard, with General Grant and it turned out O. K. and it was MY grandfather.
I am extremely glad that "mom" quieried her father about his experiences and recorded them.

An interesting side note: The Federals could not communicate with Sherman, that they would not make their part of the attack, but the rebels notified Pemberton of what had happened. It was approximately the same distance, but Forrest had made havoc with the Federal communications in Tennessee, and Grant could not tell Sherman that it was "all off."

 David


--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "carlw4514" <carlw4514@...> wrote:
>
> David, we would love to hear that story... and I too scold keeno2 [will?] for being dense and saying none were built in ILL.
>



#46544 From: "shawn" <sstrutton@...>
Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 3:54 pm
Subject: Mounted Riflemen / 3RD US Cavalry
sstrutton72
Send Email Send Email
 
Hello,

I am a Civil War reinactor in the Pacific Northwest that is looking on starting
a new unit in my club. The unit that I am looking at was formed in the late
1840s as the Mounted Riflemen.  They started out building forts along the Oregon
Trail and were sent to fight in the Mexican War. I know that when the Civil War
started they were redesignated as the 3RD US Cavalry and helped drive the
confederates back into texas and spent most of the war in Tenesse.

I have been realy impressed with the knowledge of the people in this group and
was hoping that I could get some people to share some information on the unit. 
Any thing would be extreamly helpful.

Shawn

#46545 From: keeno2@...
Date: Thu Nov 5, 2009 3:29 pm
Subject: Re: Mounted Riflemen / 3RD US Cavalry
keeno2@...
Send Email Send Email
 
Shawn. If you're looking for activity in a board, check into civilwartalk.com. Can't say that we have a large presence in the Pacific NW, but there are plenty of cheerleaders.
 
Ole

#46546 From: Patricia Swan <pbswan@...>
Date: Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:15 am
Subject: Re: Mounted Riflemen / 3RD US Cavalry
swan_pat_est...
Send Email Send Email
 
Shawn,
The Mounted Riflemen/3rd Cavalry were indeed an interesting group. The
URL below gives some information about their Civil War experience. The
Colonel of the 90th Illinois had been a Rifleman in New Mexico before
the C.W.

http://crossedsabers.blogspot.com/2009/08/3rd-us-cavalry-in-civil-war-1861.html

Patricia B. Swan
"Chicago's Irish Legion: the 90th Illinois Volunteers in the Civil War"
by James B. Swan
shawn wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I am a Civil War reinactor in the Pacific Northwest that is looking on
> starting a new unit in my club. The unit that I am looking at was
> formed in the late 1840s as the Mounted Riflemen. They started out
> building forts along the Oregon Trail and were sent to fight in the
> Mexican War. I know that when the Civil War started they were
> redesignated as the 3RD US Cavalry and helped drive the confederates
> back into texas and spent most of the war in Tenesse.
>
> I have been realy impressed with the knowledge of the people in this
> group and was hoping that I could get some people to share some
> information on the unit. Any thing would be extreamly helpful.
>
> Shawn
>
>

#46547 From: William Nolan <sixtxcavrgtcsa@...>
Date: Sun Nov 8, 2009 2:52 am
Subject: Re: Mounted Riflemen / 3RD US Cavalry
sixtxcavrgtcsa
Send Email Send Email
 
My 3rd Texas Cavalry Regiment, a part of the Whitfield / Ross Texas Cavalry Brigade left Texas in 1861 and did not return till the war was over. They were roughed up and pushed around, but the were nor driven back to Texas. Sherman with over 100,000 troops fought for 110 days to go a distance we drive today in an hour. During that distance he lost about 45,000 men, with replacements all the way. Johnson had no replacements, but his soldiers made Sherman pay in blood. Because the North won??? The real history is not heard. Today at my web site I make available all that I have learned of this one brigade. The 3rd US Cavalry was not like its sister unit the 2nd which spawned the likes of Robert E. Lee. I have not studied the 3rd US Cavalry, but I do know it did not drive anyone back to Texas


From: Patricia Swan <pbswan@...>
To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, November 5, 2009 7:15:07 PM
Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Mounted Riflemen / 3RD US Cavalry

Shawn,
The Mounted Riflemen/3rd Cavalry were indeed an interesting group. The
URL below gives some information about their Civil War experience. The
Colonel of the 90th Illinois had been a Rifleman in New Mexico before
the C.W.

http://crossedsabers.blogspot.com/2009/08/3rd-us-cavalry-in-civil-war-1861.html

Patricia B. Swan
"Chicago's Irish Legion: the 90th Illinois Volunteers in the Civil War"
by James B. Swan
shawn wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I am a Civil War reinactor in the Pacific Northwest that is looking on
> starting a new unit in my club. The unit that I am looking at was
> formed in the late 1840s as the Mounted Riflemen. They started out
> building forts along the Oregon Trail and were sent to fight in the
> Mexican War. I know that when the Civil War started they were
> redesignated as the 3RD US Cavalry and helped drive the confederates
> back into texas and spent most of the war in Tenesse.
>
> I have been realy impressed with the knowledge of the people in this
> group and was hoping that I could get some people to share some
> information on the unit. Any thing would be extreamly helpful.
>
> Shawn
>
>


------------------------------------

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#46548 From: Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...>
Date: Sun Nov 8, 2009 3:32 am
Subject: Re: Mounted Riflemen / 3RD US Cavalry
huddlestonus
Send Email Send Email
 
They did not have to be driven back to Texas:  they surrendered long before that....
Take care,
Bob
Judy and Bob Huddleston
10643 Sperry Street
Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
Huddleston.r@...
And so to the end of history, murder shall breed murder, always in the name of right and honour and peace, until the Gods are tired of blood and create a race that can understand.” – George Bernard Shaw, “Caesar and Cleopatra” 


William Nolan wrote:
 
My 3rd Texas Cavalry Regiment, a part of the Whitfield / Ross Texas Cavalry Brigade left Texas in 1861 and did not return till the war was over. They were roughed up and pushed around, but the were nor driven back to Texas. Sherman with over 100,000 troops fought for 110 days to go a distance we drive today in an hour. During that distance he lost about 45,000 men, with replacements all the way. Johnson had no replacements, but his soldiers made Sherman pay in blood. Because the North won??? The real history is not heard. Today at my web site I make available all that I have learned of this one brigade. The 3rd US Cavalry was not like its sister unit the 2nd which spawned the likes of Robert E. Lee. I have not studied the 3rd US Cavalry, but I do know it did not drive anyone back to Texas


From: Patricia Swan <pbswan@bellsouth.net>
To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, November 5, 2009 7:15:07 PM
Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Mounted Riflemen / 3RD US Cavalry

Shawn,
The Mounted Riflemen/3rd Cavalry were indeed an interesting group. The
URL below gives some information about their Civil War experience. The
Colonel of the 90th Illinois had been a Rifleman in New Mexico before
the C.W.

http://crossedsabers.blogspot.com/2009/08/3rd-us-cavalry-in-civil-war-1861.html

Patricia B. Swan
"Chicago's Irish Legion: the 90th Illinois Volunteers in the Civil War"
by James B. Swan
shawn wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I am a Civil War reinactor in the Pacific Northwest that is looking on
> starting a new unit in my club. The unit that I am looking at was
> formed in the late 1840s as the Mounted Riflemen. They started out
> building forts along the Oregon Trail and were sent to fight in the
> Mexican War. I know that when the Civil War started they were
> redesignated as the 3RD US Cavalry and helped drive the confederates
> back into texas and spent most of the war in Tenesse.
>
> I have been realy impressed with the knowledge of the people in this
> group and was hoping that I could get some people to share some
> information on the unit. Any thing would be extreamly helpful.
>
> Shawn
>
>


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/civilwarwest/join
    (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
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<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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#46549 From: Jason Unwin <generalripper_1999@...>
Date: Sun Nov 8, 2009 4:52 am
Subject: Reenactors in Colorado?
generalrippe...
Send Email Send Email
 
Our reenacting unit is recruiting persons in Colorado interested in portraying all aspects of the American Civil War. We are looking for persons wishing to portray Union or Confederate Infantry, Artillery, Cavalry, Medical or civillians. Our unit has a 3" Ordnance gun and is in need of crew members. We participate in at least two events in New Mexico, and organize one event in Colorado at the Royal Gorge Bridge and Park near Canon City. We also try to travel to at least one other Civil War living history in an additional state. All are welcome to join our organization. If you are interested, please contact me at generalripper_1999@... . I look forward to you joining our unit.

Jason Unwin
Ordnance Sergeant
5th Texas Artillery


#46550 From: "daz0463" <fwnash@...>
Date: Sun Nov 8, 2009 9:51 pm
Subject: Re: Sternwheel Transports
daz0463
Send Email Send Email
 
In the Sep 1973 issue of the S&D Refelector, the diary of Col William Rion Hoel
was printed.  He was in charge of the ironclad Pittsburg and participated in the
ill starred Red River Expedition in the spring of 1864.  His diary is in the
Public Library of Cincinnati and Hamilton County - Inland Rivers Library.  Its
entries are 2 Mar 1864 to 21 May as used in the article in the S&D Reflector. 
All steamboats of the expedition are ID'ed by name.

Sat March 12th

"Arrived on Simport at 1PM. Genl Smiths transports (20) arrived and his troops
disembarked, about 10,000 men."

On average for this mission, one steamboat transported 500 troops and their
equipment and supplies.

Fran Nash




--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Gerald Doolen <cwwgeraldd45@...> wrote:
>
> 2009Feb28
>  
> WOW !  What a great resource, I had no idea such information was available.
> Info. like this makes CWW worthwhile.
>  
> Thanks very much !
>  
> p.s.- Steamboats are a special interest; recently read Bissell's great book,
am searching out references. Have been to Jeffersonville, IN Museum; several
photos of "Queens"; Louisville Belle "sinking"; trip/photos/sound on (N..O.)
Natchez @ Paducah, etc.
>
>
> --- On Sat, 2/28/09, fwnash@... <fwnash@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: fwnash@... <fwnash@...>
> Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Sternwheel Transports
> To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, February 28, 2009, 3:40 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                            Feb 27
>  
> Mr D45
>  
> Not sure what happened with my premature send, but will start again.  There
are two steamers in Way's Dictionary that match your criteria.  The biggest
Diana was built by the famed Howard Ship Yards in Jeffersonville, IN.  It was a
sidewheeler 275x37x7 and rated at 560 tons.  The Diana was a much bigger boat
than the usual Pittsburgh area sternwheeler.   
>  
> There is a photo in the UW-La Crosse Historic Steamboat Collection at the
following link.
>  
> http://digicoll. library.wisc. edu/LaCrosseStea mboat/
>  
> Browse and search for Diana.  I found no photos in the PLCHC collection.
>  
> OFFICERS & CREW: Captain Edward T. Sturgeon (master); Orlando L. Smith (first
clerk); John W. Forsee (second clerk); S.F. Cornell (barkeeper, 1857).
> RIVERS: Mississippi River; Ohio River; Illinois River .
> OTHER INFORMATION: Ways - 1539; Home port or owner's residence (1857),
Louisville, Kentucky. Original price $15,000. Left Louisville on her maiden trip
in the New Orleans trade, December 24, 1857. Ran a celebrated race with the
Baltic in 1858 from New Orleans to Louisville and won. She was rewarded with a
$500 prize and the right to carry U.S. mail. When the Pennsylvania exploded at
Ship Island in June 1858, the Diana was at the scene and picked up survivors.
When the Civil War began, she carried army supplies to Nashville, March 1862.
She was sold to the U.S. Quartermasters Department while laid up at New Albany,
Indiana on December 6, 1862 and saw service as a troop transport.  For a time
she was the flagship of the Mississippi Marine Brigade.  Was in the Red River
expedition in the spring of 1864.
>  
> There are no entries for 1863.
>  
> Fran Nash 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "cwwgeraldd45" <cwwgeraldd45@ yahoo.com>
> To: civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 7:25:03 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Sternwheel Transports
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2009Feb27
>
> Dr. John T. Hunt (IL 40th Co. A) in his memoirs has some interesting
> information on steamboats on the Mississippi and Ohio.
>
> Of interest to me is the Diana (very large)...transporte d the IL 40th
> from Vicksburg to Memphis (after Sept. 25, 1863)... "about Nov. 01"
>
> Interested in any information. ..photo, specifications, capt., crew.
>
> --- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, fwnash@ wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
> >
> > H’lo.  Recently I became a member of your research group so
> I thought I should introduce myself as a n a ncestor of the Steamboating
> Poe family. I fit the role of a storyteller more than a historian. n a
> ncestor of the Steamboating Poe family. I fit the role of a storyteller
> more than a historian.
> >
> > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
> >
> > I’ve come to you searching for info and photos of 25 steamboats
> and their captains who carried troops and supplies on the western rivers
> during the Civil War and worked the Missouri River trade from 1866-1870.
> The captains and packets, well known to Capt Frederick Way the Ohio
> River historian, steamed from Georgetown, PA, a tiny borough on the Ohio
> River within site of West Virginia and Ohio. The steamers are also
> listed in the "Dictionary of Transports and Combatant Vessels Steam and
> Sail Employed by the Union Army 1861-1868" compiled by Charles Dana
> Gibson and E Kay Gibson. Without these captains/pilots and steamers, the
> Union armies could not have taken the field, nor could they have been
> sustained.
> >
> >
> >
> > Their stories are fascinating. For example -- The str Kenton was owned
> by Capt George W Ebert who quite possibly was also one of its
> pilots. On Jan 12, 1863, the Kenton was moored near the mouth on the
> White River according to a personal letter by Lt Cushman K Davis of the
> 28th Wisconsin Regiment. Lt Davis was the aide-de-camp to Gen Willis
> Arnold Gorman. Approximately 18,000 troops had been transported to the
> White River from Helena or Napoleon by a fleet of 30 steamers. The
> Kenton steamed five difficult miles up the swollen White River on Jan
> 13. According to Lt Davis, the old General spent most of his time in
> swearing at the pilot. On Jan 15 the 28th Wisconsin was visited by a
> terrific snowstorm. After finding no fight on the White River, the 28th
> Wisconsin was ordered to Vicksburg for the purpose of another attack.
> >
> >
> >
> > Other civilian captains from Georgetown were: Thomas W Poe, Jacob Poe,
> Adam Poe ,Thomas S Calhoon, and Jackman T Stockdale. My packets of
> interest are: Amelia Poe, Clara Poe, Georgetown, Mary E Poe, Nick Wall,
> Belfast, Big Foot, Argyle, Belmont, Jacob Poe, Kenton, Mollie Ebert,
> Yorktown,
> >
> > Sallie, John C Fremont, Ida Stockdale, Katie Stockdale...
> >
> > Sallie, John C Fremont, Ida Stockdale, Katie Stockdale...
> >
> >
> >
> > There is little data on the civilian transports whether charted or
> impressed into service. If you are aware of any data, I would greatly
> appreciate directions to it.
> >
> >
> >
> > I recently inherited a journal and some other family articles. And
> Capt George W Ebert, cursed by the old general, was my great great
> grandfather. It was not a story of my choosing, but what could make a
> better story.
> >
> > Fran Nash
> >
> > I’ve come to you searching for info and photos of 25 steamboats
> and their captains who carried troops and supplies on the western rivers
> during the Civil War and worked the Missouri River trade from 1866-1870.
> The captains and packets, well known to Capt Frederick Way the Ohio
> River historian, steamed from Georgetown, PA, a tiny borough on the Ohio
> River within site of West Virginia and Ohio. The steamers are also
> listed in the "Dictionary of Transports and Combatant Vessels Steam and
> Sail Employed by the Union Army 1861-1868" compiled by Charles Dana
> Gibson and E Kay Gibson. Without these captains/pilots and steamers, the
> Union armies could not have taken the field, nor could they have been
> sustained.
> >
> >
> >
> > Their stories are fascinating. For example -- The str Kenton was owned
> by Capt George W Ebert who quite possibly was also one of its
> pilots. On Jan 12, 1863, the Kenton was moored near the mouth on the
> White River according to a personal letter by Lt Cushman K Davis of the
> 28th Wisconsin Regiment. Lt Davis was the aide-de-camp to Gen Willis
> Arnold Gorman. Approximately 18,000 troops had been transported to the
> White River from Helena or Napoleon by a fleet of 30 steamers. The
> Kenton steamed five difficult miles up the swollen White River on Jan
> 13. According to Lt Davis, the old General spent most of his time in
> swearing at the pilot. On Jan 15 the 28th Wisconsin was visited by a
> terrific snowstorm. After finding no fight on the White River, the 28th
> Wisconsin was ordered to Vicksburg for the purpose of another attack.
> >
> >
> >
> > Other civilian captains from Georgetown were: Thomas W Poe, Jacob Poe,
> Adam Poe ,Thomas S Calhoon, and Jackman T Stockdale. My packets of
> interest are: Amelia Poe, Clara Poe, Georgetown, Mary E Poe, Nick Wall,
> Belfast, Big Foot, Argyle, Belmont, Jacob Poe, Kenton, Mollie Ebert,
> Yorktown,
> >
> > Sallie, John C Fremont, Ida Stockdale, Katie Stockdale...
> >
> > Sallie, John C Fremont, Ida Stockdale, Katie Stockdale...
> >
> >
> >
> > There is little data on the civilian transports whether charted or
> impressed into service. If you are aware of any data, I would greatly
> appreciate directions to it.
> >
> >
> >
> > I recently inherited a journal and some other family articles. And
> Capt George W Ebert, cursed by the old general, was my great great
> grandfather. It was not a story of my choosing, but what could make a
> better story.
> >
> > Fran Nash
> >
>

#46551 From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
Date: Mon Nov 9, 2009 4:03 am
Subject: Lincoln-Herndon Law Offices
hjs212002
Send Email Send Email
 
#46552 From: "Dale" <delawarerivergallery@...>
Date: Mon Nov 9, 2009 12:14 pm
Subject: New Civil War Artist
delawarerive...
Send Email Send Email
 

Hi

Thought you might like to see some artwork from from an up and coming historical artist. His name is Mark Maritato and he does some great work. Click n the link below and see his verision of the Irish Brigade at Fredricksburg. I think you will agree he is very talented.

http://www.delawarerivergallery.com/

Dale


#46553 From: "rbaquero@..." <rbaquero@...>
Date: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:05 pm
Subject: Fw: [SNC] Thomas Moore speaking at Freedom Weekend
rbaquero8
Send Email Send Email
 


Please note: forwarded message attached

From: southernnationalcongress.org <communications@...>
To: <rbaquero@...>
Subject: [SNC] Thomas Moore speaking at Freedom Weekend
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:25:43 -0500



____________________________________________________________
Are you an Iron Chef?
Get info for hospitality, catering, pastry. Over 100 programs.

Myrtle Beach Freedom Weekend to Feature G. Edward Griffin and Thomas Moore

When America's founding fathers wrote the rulebooks for the country, they had a different idea of what government should look like than what it has become. They made the case for a humble foreign policy. We have military bases in more than 130 countries. They said government should protect equal rights, not provide equal things. We steal from those who have and give what they have to the have-nots. They framed debt as an instrument of imprisonment. We are more than 10 trillion dollars debt.

These are only some of the 28 principles the founders laid out for us to follow. And we have strayed from the path.

But the second Patriot Expo will host the 'Myrtle Beach Freedom Weekend' where presenters will feature the Making of America seminar, a seminar that addresses the 28 principles our founding documents-the Constitution, Bill of Rights and others-are based on.

The seminar will take place on Saturday, November 14 and is part of a two-day conference that will highlight Constitution-centered speakers and vendors.

Featured speaker G. Edward Griffin-Federal Reserve Bank expert and critic, and author of "The Creature from Jekyll Island"-will share his solutions to the current economic crisis. Griffin said in an interview that, though the economy looks bleak, he is hopeful because more people are aware of the problems we face than ever before. "With a growing crisis, we have the opportunity to substitute change." And that change, he said, requires a solution other than dependence on a growing government.

South Carolina native, Thomas Moore, Dr. Steven Yates and Dr. Frederick Graves will also speak at the event. Mr. Moore worked in the Pentagon during the Reagan Administration and under former U. S. Sen. Strom Thurmond on the Senate Armed Services Committee's staff. He also worked for three years as the Director of Defense and Foreign Policy at The Heritage Foundation. Thomas Moore is the Chairman of the Southern National Congress and founder of Southern Institute for Sustainable Living Inc.

Greenville resident, Dr. Yates, is the author of numerous articles and reviews both in academic journals and nonacademic publications including The New American. He frequently writes articles for commentary websites, and has archives on both LewRockwell.com and NewsWithViews.com. He has also published columns in newspapers including The State based in Columbia and The Greenville News based in Greenville. These articles run the gamut of issues from affirmative action and political correctness back to the threat of bogus free trade agreements and their role in the slow economic deterioration of America. Over the past two years, he has been closely following such developments as the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America (SPP), other aspects of behind-the-scenes continental integration (North American Union), the federal governments refusal to secure our border with Mexico.

An attorney since 1986, Dr Graves started the Jurisdictionary program in 1997 to help people avoid being injured in court, either on their own or with a lawyer who may not do everything that should be done. He was recently the featured speaker at an event in Ohio lecturing on State Sovereignty.

Interviews or lectures by all of our speakers are available to hear now at
http://PatriotExpo.com

Vendors from a range of organizations such as the Campaign for Liberty and the 9/12 Project will host tables for attendees to find more information and to become involved.

Meals and overnights are also available with the purchase of various packages. The freedom weekend will be November 14-15 at The Sands' Ocean Dunes Resort. Pre-registration is strongly suggested. To purchase event tickets, or for more information, visit
www.patriotexpo.com or call 843-281-1527.


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#46554 From: DPowell334@...
Date: Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:31 am
Subject: (no subject)
dpowell334
Send Email Send Email
 

CCNMP Study Group 2010 Seminar in the Woods.

 

Mission Statement: The purpose of the CCNMP Study Group is to create a forum to bring students of the American Civil War together to study and explore those events in the fall of 1863 that led ultimately to the creation of the Chickamauga-Chattanooga National Military Park. The intent is to use the indispensable resource of the park itself as an outdoor classroom to promote learning and study of the battles for Chattanooga, and to build interest for an annual gathering that will in time examine all aspects of the Campaigns for Chattanooga. Additionally, we hope to bring students and serious scholars, both professional and amateur, to the field for to share insights and knowledge about the battles.

 

Tour Leaders:  Jim Ogden, Park Historian, and Dave Powell

 

Date: Friday, March 12, and Saturday, March 13, 2010

 

Note: Friday’s tours will involve a tour bus. We will be charging a small fee for use of the bus. See below.

 

Friday Morning: 8:30 a.m. to Noon. Bragg in Command, part I

 

By Bus, we will trace Confederate Commander Braxton Bragg's movements to the field  between September 9th and 19th, discussing his command decisions and the information he had at the time. Stops will include Lee and Gordon's Mills, Rock Springs, Lafayette, Leet's Tanyard.

 

Start and end at the Visitor's Center parking lot.

 

Friday Afternoon: 1:30 to 5:00 p.m. Bragg in command, part II

 

By Bus and foot. We begin with a hike down to Thedford Ford, discuss Bragg reaching the field on the 19th and subsequent decisions that day, then hike back. From there we will discuss the morning confusion with Polk, the decision to order everyone into action, and later meetings. We will visit Brotherton Field and the 20th HQ site near Winfrey Field.

 

Start and end at the Visitor's Center parking lot

 

Saturday Morning: 8:30 to Noon. Cleburne Attacks

 

On foot. While Breckinridge's Division overwhelmed John Beatty's Brigade and nearly broke through into Thomas' Rear, the southern end of Kelly Field was assailed by DH Hill's other Division, under Pat Cleburne. Cleburne's men had a difficult fight that morning, and it was not the command's best performance. We will examine Polk's attack, Wood's delay and wandering, and finally, Deshler's desperate action at noon. We will visit Polk's tablet on Alexander Bridge Road, move overland to Wood's approximate departure point, track his brigade's attack with Stewart into Poe field (visit Alabama Monument) and work our way up the ridge to Deshler's mortuary monument.

 

Car caravan from Visitor's Center

 

Saturday Afternoon:  1:30 to 5:00 p.m. Final defense of Battle line Road

 

On foot, we will examine the defense of Battle line road, and the final retreat from that position on September 20th. We will focus primarily on Baird's Division and the difficulties they experienced as they tried to disengage, on how well the overall retreat was managed, and on the nature of the final Confederate attack in this sector.

           

Car caravan from Visitor's Center

 

 

Cost: Beyond the fee for Friday’s Bus, there is no cost for tour participation. Meals lodging, transportation, and incidentals, however, are the individual’s responsibility.

 

Tour Departures: All tours will meet at the Chickamauga Visitor’s Center at the designated start time, and will depart from there after some brief overview discussion. We will board the bus or car caravan to the designated parking area, and from there, we will be on foot. We will be on foot for up to three hours, so dress and prepare accordingly. Tours will depart rain or shine. Participants are responsible for their own transportation, and should plan accordingly. All tours are designed to be self-contained, so participants who cannot attend the full schedule are still welcome to join us for any portion of the weekend. 

 

Lodging and Meals: Everyone is responsible for their own lodging and meals. There are many hotels in the greater Chattanooga area, for any price range. The closest are in Fort Olgethorpe, Georgia, with the least expensive in Ringgold. Each tour is designed to leave at least 90 minutes for lunch, and there are several family and fast food restaurants within minutes of the battlefield. There are designated picnic areas near the Visitor’s Center, for those who wish to bring a lunch and eat on the field.

 

What to bring: Each tour will involve extensive walking. Proper clothing and especially footgear is essential. Dress in layers, wear sturdy, broken-in walking shoes or boots, and be prepared for some rain, as spring can be quite wet in North Georgia. We will be walking on dirt and gravel trails, uncut fields, and through stretches of woods. The ground will be wet and muddy in places. Bring your own water and snacks.

 

Reading up on the subject: Many people like to prepare in advance for these kinds of events. I suggest the following works might be of help.

 

 

Cozzens, Peter. This Terrible Sound. University of Illinois, 1992. The best modern study of the battle.

 

Gracie, Archibald. The Truth About Chickamauga. Morningside, Reprinted 1987. For the veteran Chickamauga student only.

 

Woodworth, Stephen E. Six Armies In Tennessee: The Chickamauga And Chattanooga Campaigns. Lincoln, Nebraska. University of Nebraska Press, 1998. An excellent overview campaign study.

 

-------------------, A Deep Steady Thunder: The Battle Of Chickamauga. Abilene, Texas. McWhiney Foundation Press, 1998. Concise but very useful account of the battle, designed as an introduction to the action. 100 pages, very readable.

 

And I am happy to announce that:

 

Powell, David with Cartography by Dave Friedrichs, The Maps Of Chickamauga. Savas-Beatie, 2009 is now available as well.

 

Note: Friday’s Tours will be by Bus, as we move from site to site. While the tour itself is free, we do have to pay for the bus.

Pre-registration Fee: $35 Due by February 1st, 2010

 

After November 5th, 2009, send to:

FRANK CRAWFORD

34664 ORANGE DRIVE

PINELLAS PARK, FLORIDA    33781

 

Frank will hold your payments. If you pay by check, note that Frank will not cash those checks until we have sufficient entries, so that if we have to refund, Frank will simply send your checks back to you.

 

Please also note that this fee is NON-REFUNDABLE after February 1st, 2008. Once we are committed to the bus, we will be charged the booking fee.

 

On-site Sign up Fee: $40

 

We MUST have 20 attendees registered and Paid by Feb 1st, or we cannot reserve the bus. Once we confirm the minimum, you will be able to join the tour the day we depart, for late add-ons. If we do not meet the minimum, we will car-caravan for Friday’s tours.

 

Final note: Last year we raised a sizable amount of money over and above the cost of the bus, and were able to contribute a number of new titles to the CCNMP research library, mostly regimental histories of recent vintage. The park currently does not have operating funds allocated for these kinds of acquisitions, and depends entirely on donations to fund library additions. I feel that this is an ideal use for any excess funds we raise, in keeping with the "study group" mission.


#46555 From: "hank9174" <clarkc@...>
Date: Fri Nov 20, 2009 4:02 pm
Subject: Re: New Civil War Artist
hank9174
Send Email Send Email
 
Wow! Unique!!

Little Round Top, the Irish Brigade and Berdan's sharpshooters.

Never seen them in a painting before...



--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Dale" <delawarerivergallery@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi
>
> Thought you might like to see some artwork from from an up and coming
> historical artist. His name is Mark Maritato and he does some great
> work. Click n the link below and see his verision of the Irish Brigade
> at Fredricksburg. I think you will agree he is very talented.
>
> http://www.delawarerivergallery.com/
> <http://www.delawarerivergallery.com/>
>
> Dale
>

#46556 From: fwnash@...
Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:24 pm
Subject: Fwd: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)
daz0463
Send Email Send Email
 

Subject: Re: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)



I want to propose a topic for discussion expanding on my comment that “Rails for the railroad systems were also forged in Pittsburgh , although the railroads contributed no or little advantage in the west ”.  



 



 

Proposition.   The Civil War would not have been much different nor cost more lives without the railroads.



 



 



Background.   To start the discussion, I will list generalized reasons for declaring that the railroad systems did not contribute positively to the war effort when all things are considered.   These reasons included capitalist profiteering, lack of lines to critical war front areas, limited capacity in general, static military targets requiring protection, dangerous to operate, etc.



 

Prior to the Civil War there were approximately 200 railroads in the US .   Two-thirds of the lines and railway miles were in the states loyal to the Union .   All the locomotives, also known as steam wagons, were manufactured in the North or Europe .   There was a refit facility in Birmingham , AL which miraculously kept some fifty locomotives maintained for the South during the war.   And there was only one manufacturing place in the South where bent rails could be reclaimed.   Bent iron rails, known as “ Sherman ’s Bowties”, were difficult to straighten.   When it came to rail transportation the South was at a distinct disadvantage in the number of locomotives and rolling stock, miles of track, and the maintenance and manufacture of track, rails, locomotives, and cars.



 



 

In an article originally published in the September 1996 issue of America’s Civil War magazine, Alan R. Koenig wrote:   “ During the war, railroads were second only to waterways in providing logistical support for the armies. They were also vital to the economies of the divided nation. A great deal has been written about railroads in the war , and in particular the spectacular engineering feats of the U.S. Military Railroads ’ Construction Corps under Herman Haupt . But strangely, the tactical employment of locomotives and rolling stock, which was actually quite widespread, has thus far escaped serious attention.”   Although the Koenig’s article supports the theory that railroads were useful, the instances sited are specific events where railroads played a vital role in the outcome.   The phrase “thus far escaped serious attention” is far more telling.



 

If we focus our attention on the role of railroads, we will discover whether that role has been exaggerated.   With some dispassionate thought, we may bring to light a historical misconception.



 

Looking forward to this discussion.

Fran Nash








----- Original Message -----
From: pbswan@...
To: "daz0463" <fwnash@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 3:25:15 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)

Whatever about the Pennsylvanian rivermen -- Did you really mean to say:
"Rails for the railroad systems were also forged in Pittsburgh, although the railroads contributed no or little advantage in the west."

Estelle





--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "daz0463" <fwnash@...> wrote:
>
> From the date of your post, it is obvious that I took quite some time to formulate my response.  After considerable thought and analysis, I've come to my conclusion.  The Civil War was won in:
>
>                 Pittsburgh = Steeler Country
>
> And was won by western Pennsylvanian rivermen.
>
> Some believe the momentum of the Civil War changed after victories in the Western Theater, whether Vicksburg or Shiloh.  If this premise is true, then what were the major enablers that differed from the east?  The major advantages of the Union Army were the tall stack steamers: civilian transports, tinclads, and gunboats, and their men: captains, pilots, engineers, and crews, who operated the transports.  The origin of these advantages, and other support goods, was Pittsburgh.
>
> A mindful analysis of the Charles and E Kay Gibson's "Dictionary of Transports and Combatant Vessels, Steam and Sail, Employed by the Union Army 1861-1868", indicates that approximately 720 steamboats were employed on the western rivers during the Civil War.  The Army Quartermaster built and purchased 105 and chartered 615.  Cross referencing those steamboats by name with Capt Frederick Way's "Way's Packet Directory, 1848-1994" revealed that just over 44% of the steamboats were built in Pittsburgh.  My definition of "Pittsburgh" is the region on the Ohio and Monongahela Rivers approximately 20 miles down the Ohio and 20 miles up the Mon from Pittsburgh.  That region includes boatyards in river towns such as Freedom, Shousetown (no longer exists), Elizabeth (Lewis and Clark keelboat fame), Brownsville, McKeesport, California, Belle Vernon ...  That region is about 4% of the total run of the Ohio River.
>
> From Gibsons Dictionary I have included all the boats which means packets built as far up the Mississippi as Keokuk, IA and as far down as New Orleans, LA and in Bridgeport, AL on the Tennessee River.   So my 40 miles of water surrounding Pittsburgh is competing with all the boatyards on the rest of the Ohio plus nearly the full length of the Mississippi and the Tennessee rivers.  Gunboats also skewed the data against Pittsburgh.  Gunboats were built specifically for the Quartermaster in strange places such as Oquaka, IL, Burlington, IA, Chatanooga, TN, etc.   These sites were not commercial boatyards like those found in Cincinnati, OH, New Albany, IN, and Elizabeth, PA.
>
> The sources used to identify the steamers on the western rivers were the primary sources of Gibson's Dictionary part 2 and 3 of HR-337 and one secondary source identified as Hurst which refers to a list in "The Battle of Shiloh" by TM Hurst.  The Gibsons do not list the build port for the steamers.  By cross referencing the name provided by the Gibsons with the build location in Way's Directory, I have my data.
>
> I confess I lost 13.6% of the Gibson steamers.  In most cases, the names identified by the Gibsons did not match with Way's Packet Directory.  The missing steamers I believe were often tugs and ferries not listed by Capt Way because they were not packets.  In a few cases the names did match but I excluded the boats if either the vessel was out of service before the war or not built until after the war according to Way's Directory.  I trust Capt Way more than the Gibsons.
>
> In addition to the boatyards, Pittsburgh was the major iron works center in the Union. Approximately 60% of the artillery used by the Union Army was forged in Pittsburgh.  Rails for the railroad systems were also forged in Pittsburgh, although the railroads contributed no or little advantage in the west.   Theses two additional products, artillery and rails, provide the mortar to keep my main conclusion standing.  Without experiencing a single warlike day, Pittsburgh provided the underlying support that changed the momentum of the war.
>
> A different yet interesting line of research would be:  How different would have been the outcome of the Civil War without the steamboats pilots who knew the chutes, channels and shoals of the Ohio and its tributaries?
>
>
> Note 1:  I was surprised that Pittsburgh's steamboats did not total more than 50%.  Alas, I had spent too much time not to respond with the data at hand.    For the Missouri River commerce of the late 1860's, Pittsburgh produced approx 70% of the packets.  I was also amazed by the number of packets built in Cincinnati.  Far more than any other single site, but far less than the Pittsburgh region according to my definition of the region.  I had no idea Cincinnati had such a river history.  To honor the history of Cincinnati's contributions to the epoch of steamboats, I will celebrate with a case of Little Kings.
>
> Note 2:  The Chaplain of the 72nd Ohio Infantry was Rev Adam B Poe, one of the founders of Ohio Wesleyan College.  Three of his first cousins from Georgetown, PA were packet owners and captains who steamed to Pittsburg Landing in Apr 1862: Jacob, Thomas W, and Adam Poe.  Another Georgetown steamboat captain, Jackman T Stockdale, was also at Pittsburg Landing on 6-7 Apr 1862.   Two Georgetown captains, George W Ebert and Richard Calhoon, and their vessels were chartered at the correct time, but I can not place them at Pittsburg Landing.  About that time George W Ebert had been running messages between Helena, AR, Memphis, TN and St Louis, MO.  Richard Calhoon had been transporting troops and supplies along the Ohio.  I am curious whether the reverend and the captains knew.
>
> Fran Nash
>
>
>
>
> --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "jbissla" <gabriel@> wrote:
> >
> > The American Civil War Western Theater Discussion Group is a great
> > forum for the 600-plus men and women who see significance in what
> > happened westward from the Appalachians. Millions of other Americans,
> > however, STILL assume the "real war" occurred mostly in Virginia, and
> > Gettysburg was the war's turning point. For those of us who believe the
> > war's outcome was shaped in the Western Theater instead, the popular
> > lack of awareness is a kind of continuation of the insults Easterners
> > used to heap on Westerners ("armed rabble," "drunkards," etc.). I have
> > just joined the small group of writers who argue the war's outcome was
> > shaped in the Western Theater by Westerners while Easteners were
> > achieving no more than (as Richard McMurry puts it) "a bloody strategic
> > stalemate." The battlefields of Virginia and nearby were great for
> > creating widows and orphans, but until Grant came east, not much else
> > that might end the war. My new book, "Blood, Tears, and Glory: How
> > Ohioans Won the Civil War" (see wwww.orangefrazer.com/btg) makes the
> > argument from one point of view; I hope others will chime in with
> > theirs. James (Jim) Bissland
> >
>



#46557 From: keeno2@...
Date: Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:46 pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)
keeno2@...
Send Email Send Email
 
Could go either way, fwnash. I could go either way as well.
 
The role of the RR has been somewhat overplayed, and I accept much of what you say. However, (there's almost all of one of those, isn't there?) Sherman would have been unable to take Atlanta without that rail connection through Chattanooga to Nashville to Louisville. On the obverse, Hood would have been much better supplied for his jaunt to Nashville if he'd had a complete rail connection between Corinth and Florence. Then, the investment of Petersburg was largely a matter of interdicting Lee's rails from points south and west. And I hear that Meade's vaunted supply line at Gettysburg was finally finished after the battles.
 
Possibly the only time Grant retraced his steps is when Van Dorn burned Holly Springs.
 
So, while I agree that the role of rails is given perhaps too much credit, they did play a role.
 
Ole

#46558 From: fwnash@...
Date: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:54 am
Subject: Re: Fwd: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)
daz0463
Send Email Send Email
 

                                   Nov 29

 

Mr K

 

Your response was exactly what I was hoping for.  One person will be unable to research a topic so broad, but a large group with diverse interests and points of view can cover the entire range of data, and with luck discover something new or interesting.  Original research combined with creative thinking!  Your examples are perfect candidates for analysis. 

 

Let’s look at the railroad connections between Louisville and Chattanooga.  Two railroad companies were involved:

 

    (1)  Louisville and Nashville RR (L&N RR)

    (2)  Nashville and Chattanooga RR (N&C RR)

 

 

The general statistics in 1861 for each railway line are listed below.  I added the Virginia and Tennessee RR to further the discussion.  The L&N and N&C RRs are two of the larger lines in the South.  The number of locomotives and miles of track are equal.  The track gauge differs which means the two lines could not be connected.  In Nashville, the goods form one line would have to be unloaded, carted to the other line and there reloaded.    

 

    RR       Engines   Cars    Miles     Track

    L&N       38           342      285      5 ft Gage 60# T-rail

    N&C       37           380      255      5 ft Gage 55# Urail

    V&T        40           406      224      5 ft Gage 60# T-rail

 

The L&N RR was neutral until 4 Jul 1861 when the governor of TN detained rolling stock on the southern part of the line.  The Union took the KY portion shortly thereafter.  By early in the summer of 1862, the entire RR was under Union control.  To the best of my knowledge, there is no information after the Union took control regarding how many locomotives and cars were operable.  

 

The N&C supported a number of small lines to mining areas in Shellmound, GA and Huntsville, AL.  The N&C RR supported both the sides at the same time in 1863.  Like the L&N there is no information about the status of the locomotives and cars after 1861.

 

An example of the railroad maintenance issue can be inferred from the Virginia and Tennessee RR (V&T RR).  In 1861 the V&T RR listed 40 locomotives. In 1863, of that number 9 were classified as useless and 9 awaiting repair.  The attrition was due to normal wear and tear, not to enemy action.   I do not know whether the 45% rate of deterioration was consistent across all southern RRs, but the maintenance problem was acute in the South.  No were new locomotives available.  Railroad cars also deteriorated over time.  Although the cars were constructed almost entirely of wood, cast-iron wheels and wrought-iron axels posed problems.  Rail was also wearing out all over the South and stockpiles of new rails were nearly exhausted by 1863.      

 

 

General Railroad Operations and Capacity.   We take for granted the railroads of the Civil War period were much like the national transportation system of today.  Nothing could be more different.  During the Civil War years, railroad transportation meant traveling mostly in upright chairs on unheated soot filled cars that rocked and pitched their way along state imposed “standard” gauge iron track.  Check out the Lincoln trip to the Cooper Union in New York City in 1860.  He traveled on five different railroad systems with an occasion ferry thrown in to cross a problem river.  The track gauges differed – 8.5 inches vice 10 inches.  Each railroad was an independent company.  Many railroads terminated in towns without connection to continuing lines.  Cargo would be unloaded, carted across town or farther, and then reloaded.  These problems made the movement of troops and goods by rail very inefficient.  Not until the Railways and Telegraph Act of January 31, 1862 were standards put in place to enable interoperability.  Unfortunately, these standards were legislated too late to benefit the Civil War effort for the North. 

 

In the 1860s, steam locomotives could pull 8-10 passenger cars at 25 mph or 20 freight cars at 10-20 mph.   Again, we take for granted that trains are multiple locomotives pulling hundreds of loaded boxcars or passenger cars.  That was impossible in the 1860’s.  The first railroad car that could carry fifty men was not introduced by the Pennsylvania RR until 1862.  The math indicates that during the war one rail car could transport 50 men so a 10 car train could transport a maximum number of 500 men.  Supplies, artillery, horses, etc required additional locomotives and rolling stock.  To move an army of 20K soldiers without their equipment and supplies would require 40 locomotives and 400 passenger cars.  To move their equipment and supplies would require additional locomotives and freight cars.  Few RRs had that many locomotives aand cars.  Few railroads had two tracks between the terminal stations so the system was usually simplex, not bidirectional. 

 

 

            http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/chicago/sfeature/sf_made_07.html

 

During the war, the North was forced to build and man garrisons along the railroads to guard depots and bridges.  The North controlled two-thirds of the railroads and lines at the beginning of the war and captured approx one-third of the South’s resources in the first year.  That means that the North had to spend more resources to defend and protect their rails.  Depots and bridges were great military targets because large quantities of railroad materials, in addition to military supplies, were maintained at these depots so the damaged lines could be quickly repaired. 

 

It was difficult for both sides to replace damaged rail equipment in the South.  I have read that loaded boxcars were transported across rivers by steamboats and ferries, but I do know whether the same was true for locomotives.  Even in those days locomotives were enormously heavy machines.  If they could be moved they also had to have the right wheel configuration to work on the tracks intended.  The North used captured hardware on the southern rail lines. 

 

 

L&N RR Capacity.  When the North took control of the L&N RR in 1862, the number of working locomotives available to the North is unknown.  Assuming the best case, all 38 locomotives were operational; with a “broke” rate of 45%, that number became 21.  We can calculate the time taken to move Sherman’s troops from Louisville to Nashville with both counts of locomotives.  The MapQuest distance between the two cities is 175 miles.  Since the L&N had 285 miles of track either the L&N had some long spurs or there were two tracks at least a portion of the way. 

 

How much time is required to march an army 175 miles?     

What was the cost per mile to transport troops and freight?

 

We will be able to compare time and cost and determine whether the RRs were a benefit. 

 

 

Conclusion.  That’s all the time I have.   My St’lers need all the cheers they can get tonight.  Alotta factoids, more analysis later.

 

I am reminded of Sherman writing to Porter from his headquarters on the TN River, “We are obliged to the Tennessee which has favored us most opportunely, for I am never easy with a railroad which takes a whole army to guard, each foot of rail being essential to the whole; whereas they can’t stop the Tennessee, and each boat can make its own game.”

 

Mr K - I too agree the RRs played a significant role in specific events.  Not sure, in general, whether they played a positive role in toto.

 

Again, thanks for the good start.

Fran Nash

 

 

 


----- Original Message -----
From: keeno2@...
To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 3:46:08 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Fwd: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)

Could go either way, fwnash. I could go either way as well.
 
The role of the RR has been somewhat overplayed, and I accept much of what  
you say. However, (there's almost all of one of those, isn't there?)
Sherman  would have been unable to take Atlanta without that rail connection
through  Chattanooga to Nashville to Louisville. On the obverse, Hood would have
been  much better supplied for his jaunt to Nashville if he'd had a complete
rail  connection between Corinth and Florence. Then, the investment of
Petersburg was  largely a matter of interdicting Lee's rails from points south
and west. And I  hear that Meade's vaunted supply line at Gettysburg was
finally finished after  the battles.
 
Possibly the only time Grant retraced his steps is when Van Dorn burned  
Holly Springs.
 
So, while I agree that the role of rails is given perhaps too much credit,  
they did play a role.
 
Ole


#46559 From: keeno2@...
Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:57 pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)
keeno2@...
Send Email Send Email
 
Much too complex for my rapidly aging brain. You're getting into details that I don't even want to think about. For me, it remains that the rails were important in many situations, although not all.
 
The Tennessee was important, but didn't reach to Chattanooga for most of the year. The rails were impervious to seasons but bled manpower for each mile. That a train might have to off-loaded and another reloaded isn't so much of a snag as has been ascribed to the situation. Routine. Manpower. Horses and wagons.
 
The real detriment in reliance on railroads is in that the Confederacy had few connecting with anything, and no wherewithal whatever to replace rails or rolling stock. Still, the secesh managed to cannibalize spurs to maintain the semplance of a network. Theirs was still a miracle of patchwork.
 
Taken as a whole, the rivers likely did more service to the Union forces than did the rails. But that's only skimming the surface.
 
Ole

#46560 From: "carlw4514" <carlw4514@...>
Date: Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:46 am
Subject: Re: Fwd: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)
carlw4514
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I certainly agree that I was instantly overwhelmed by all that information.

Your proposition:
The Civil War would not have been much different nor cost more lives without the
railroads.

I think I would have to say I disagree that the war would not have been much
different, although I don't know how to weigh your qualifier "much".  Certainly,
outside of war, it was really changing the country, so it is hard to imagine we
would have fought the same war without them. One thing that comes to mind is
that the railroads stepped in to make up the difference when the Mississippi was
closed down.

As far as the war itself, I'd have to say quite a few battles would not have
been fought at all without the railroads and the supplies to the armies they
provided.

#46561 From: "Tony" <tony_gunter@...>
Date: Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:36 pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)
tony_gunter
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--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, fwnash@... wrote:
> Proposition.   The Civil War would not have been much different nor cost more
lives without the railroads.
>

I think you need to pick up Warren Grabau's "98 Days" in which he performs a
calculation of the distance that a civil war unit could travel away from the
rail lines without massive foraging.  Basically, there's a point at which the
food required to carry the wagon teams a given distance becomes greater than the
capacity of the wagon.  It is a shockingly short distance, I can look it up for
you some time when I get a chance.

An army travels on its stomach, and in the ACW its stomach traveled by rail.

#46562 From: "Tony" <tony_gunter@...>
Date: Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:59 pm
Subject: Latest Edition of Blue & Gray: Chickasaw Bayou
tony_gunter
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The newest edition of Blue & Gray covers Chickasaw Bayou. I'm curious if anyone
has read it, and what your opinions are.

I find it interesting that of the Confederate units mentioned in the description
of the action, not a single regiment was from Grenada. A great deal more has
been made of Van Dorn's raid than is warranted, in my opinion. There were two
units ordered from the Grenada front that showed up prior to the assault, the
smallish Vaughn's brigade composed largely of conscripts, and Gregg's brigade.
Gregg's brigade sat unengaged in a reserve position, Vaughn's brigade sat
guarding an unassaulted portion of the line. Both brigades were ordered south
before Pemberton knew that the federals were moving back to Memphis from
Grenada.

I also think there is some room in the article for clarifying the political
machinations behind Sherman's move. This was not Grant's riverine campaign for
Vicksburg, it was Lincoln and Halleck's riverine campaign. For Grant to
patiently scrap his plans for an overland campaign without complaint and defer
to his masters sitting behind desks a thousand miles away seems superhuman to
me. Contrast that to McClellan's reaction to Lincoln's comparatively minor
meddlings, and we see why Grant was the man who would go on to win the war.

#46563 From: Patricia Swan <pbswan@...>
Date: Tue Dec 1, 2009 8:49 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Mission Ridge/Glass House/Tunnel/Belle Isle:Loomis/IL26th
swan_pat_est...
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Gerald,
You may be interested in some photos that Gerald Hodge has on his 39th
Georgia site.  The 39th Georgia was one of two regiments that faced
Loomis' brigade (and thus the 26th Illinois) at Missionary Ridge.  The
photos are taken around the tunnel area where the 29th came off the hill
and captured some Union troops.  His site is:
http://www.facebook.com/index.php?lh=80f32a8617c5f99eea8f7ebbcb5520ce&#/pages/De\
scendants-and-Friends-of-the-39th-Georgia-Volunteer-Infantry-Regiment/1361894843\
47?v=photos&ref=mf
<http://www.facebook.com/index.php?lh=80f32a8617c5f99eea8f7ebbcb5520ce&#/pages/D\
escendants-and-Friends-of-the-39th-Georgia-Volunteer-Infantry-Regiment/136189484\
347?v=photos&ref=mf>Best,
Pat
Gerald Doolen wrote:
> 2008Apr21
>
> What first interested me in Mission Ridge was a family member of 26th
> IL Infantry captured at Mission Ridge/Tunnel area Nov25 and died at
> Andersonville soon after it opened. This had an effect in my lifetime
> as my great grandfathers tales were passed along. I have since become
> interested in the history of the area and battles.
>
> I have seen maps of area and picked out what I thought to be a likely
> site of Glass House, was hoping for something labled; maybe a
> university search. Now to find the maps.
>
> Thanks for the information.
>
> */swan_pat_estelle <pbswan@...>/* wrote:
>
>     Gerald,
>     There are at least three maps that indicate buildings where the Glass
>     Farmstead was said to be located in the reports of the battle at the
>     north end of Missionary Ridge. None label these buildings as the
>     Glass farmstead, but they are the only buildings shown on that farm
>     and are in the correct location. The maps are:
>     From the Official Military Atlas of the Civil War compiled by Davis,
>     Perry & Kirkley: Plate 45 No.8 ("Map of Missionary Ridge") and Plate
>     49 No. 1. ("Map of the Battlefield of Chattanooga"). The third is the
>     "Map of the Battlefields of Chattanooga & Wauhatchie" that was
>     published by the Chickamauga and Chattanooga National Park Commission
>     in 1896. It can be obtained from the shops at the C&C Battlefield
>     Hdqtrs.
>
>     I am interested in the Loomis Brigade. What is your interest in North
>     Missionary Ridge?
>
>     Hope this is helpful.
>     Pat
>
>     --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
>     <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com>, Gerald Doolen
>     <cwwgeraldd45@...>
>     wrote:
>     >
>     > 2008Apr18
>     > Thanks! this is very helpful; reafirms my suspicions. I will
>     continue studying history of the battle wherever I can find it;
>     looking for a map showing location of Glass House.
>     >
>     > LWhite64@... wrote:
>     > Gerald,
>     > Unfortunately there is nothing marking the area where the
>     Glass House was, only a Glass St. As to the Tunnel, it was not used
>     by the CS troops, but the way the ground appeared in the area could
>     make it seem like they came from the Tunnel, being very rolling, all
>     of the CS counterattacks were launched from on top of the ridge. The
>     troops that lost the most prisoners I believe were Loomis's brigade
>     which was pinned down along the Railroad embankment. That property is
>     owned by the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum.
>     >
>     > Lee
>     >
>     >
>     > -----Original Message-----
>     > From: Gerald Doolen <cwwgeraldd45@...>
>     > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
>     <mailto:civilwarwest%40yahoogroups.com>
>     > Sent: Thu, 17 Apr 2008 1:50 pm
>     > Subject: [civilwarwest] Mission Ridge/Glass House/Tunnel/Belle Isle
>     >
>     > 2008Apr17
>     >
>     > Chattanooga has one of the best WBS resource in Mission Ridge; one
>     of the most important battles being fought there. However the
>     topography and residential nature of the area makes it difficult to
>     navigate. I recently visited some of sites on Mission Ridge; not
>     having a good map I spent a lot of time and missed many, a small scale
>     map was all I could pry out of the rangers at Chickamauga. I plan to
>     return soon armed with USGS, Mapquest, etc. will focus on tunnel area.
>     Looking for the site of the "Glass House" as many writings mention it;
>     is the site known/marked ?
>     >
>     > I am interested in information reguarding prisoners, transport,
>     etc. I recall seing a drawing "Surrender at Glass House" but have not
>     been able to relocate. Some unit histories mention Confederate Troops
>     coming out of tunnel, capturing Union troops. It seems reasonable that
>     the tunnel would be heavily defended, and a good base for operations,
>     however I have found no mentioned in official records.
>     >
>     > Pleased to finally find a site devoted to the Western Theatre.
>     Also hope to visit Western Theatre Library at WKU.
>     >
>     > ---------------------------------
>     > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
>     Try it now.
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > ---------------------------------
>     > Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions More!
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > ---------------------------------
>     > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
>     Try it now.
>     >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
> it now.
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<http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51733/*http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtD\
ypao8Wcj9tAcJ%20>
>
>

#46564 From: "carlw4514" <carlw4514@...>
Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 4:38 pm
Subject: Re: Latest Edition of Blue & Gray: Chickasaw Bayou
carlw4514
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park service battle summary says "Estimated Casualties: US 1,776; CS 207"

#46565 From: "carlw4514" <carlw4514@...>
Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 4:35 pm
Subject: Re: Latest Edition of Blue & Gray: Chickasaw Bayou
carlw4514
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not sure what you mean by "Sherman's move"

> I also think there is some room in the article for clarifying the political
machinations behind Sherman's move. This was not Grant's riverine campaign for
Vicksburg, it was Lincoln and Halleck's riverine campaign. For Grant to
patiently scrap his plans for an overland campaign without complaint and defer
to his masters sitting behind desks a thousand miles away seems superhuman to
me. Contrast that to McClellan's reaction to Lincoln's comparatively minor
meddlings, and we see why Grant was the man who would go on to win the war.
>

#46566 From: keeno2@...
Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 12:49 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Latest Edition of Blue & Gray: Chickasaw Bayou
keeno2@...
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Am not following. Seems that I don't see all of the responses. I'm a member of civilwarhome and west and all that, but I rarely visit the site because I can't remember my sign-on details. What I get is what is sent to my e-mail address. Apparently, sometimes the magic doesn't work.
 
Ole

#46567 From: "Tony" <tony_gunter@...>
Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 9:41 pm
Subject: Re: Latest Edition of Blue & Gray: Chickasaw Bayou
tony_gunter
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--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "carlw4514" <carlw4514@...> wrote:
>
> not sure what you mean by "Sherman's move"
>

Sherman's move from Oxford to Memphis and from Memphis to Vicksburg.  This was
NOT Grant's vision for the Vicksburg Campaign.

Grant's plan was to move against Jackson with his whole force, using the
railroad as a line of advance.  For several weeks, Grant had been asking Halleck
for suggestions on what course of action he should pursue.  Grant finally
settled on a plan to consolidate all of his force and begin marching south. 
Halleck approved the plan, even though Halleck knew that Lincoln was demanding a
riverine campaign.

Lincoln's plan was to take Vicksburg via a riverine campaign, and Lincoln
authorized McClernand to undertake an independent expedition to do so.  Halleck,
however, immediately began trying to subvert McClernand.  First, he convinced
Lincoln to make McClernand ultimately subject to the department commander. 
Secondly, he ordered Grant to send the riverine expedition forward under Sherman
rather than delay for McClernand's arrival.

Grant was already halfway to Vicksburg, and yet here we have Halleck telling him
"go no farther," then ordering half of Grant's offensive force on a wild goose
chase down the river, where they would ultimately be subject to the command of
an incompetent political general.  That Grant didn't lose his cool speaks
volumes about his character.

#46568 From: Patricia Swan <pbswan@...>
Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 10:58 pm
Subject: Re: Latest Edition of Blue
swan_pat_est...
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Let's see.  Did Grant order Sherman to Memphis to take the troops that
McClernand was gathering there down to Vicksburg?  Did Grant plan to
keep up pressure on Pemberton and fix him in position, preventing his
going to Vicksburg?  Did Grant thus envision a coordinated action
between his troops and those with Sherman?  Did Grant ever order Sherman
to terminate his action down the river?  If some messengers got to
Sherman, but without orders from Grant, what should Sherman have done?
Disobeyed Grant's orders?  Please enlighten us.

#46569 From: "Ronald black" <rblack0981@...>
Date: Wed Dec 2, 2009 11:13 pm
Subject: Re: Latest Edition of Blue
tarafoxie
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Grant intended for his forces to advance through the center of the state down towards Vicksburg and Sherman's forces forces to approach Vicksburg from the Mississippi river.  Because of the wide seperation of the two forces, Sherman had greater freedom of action then he would have had as part of a united field army.  
Yes, Grant tried to fix Pemberton's forces in the center of the state and away from Sherman but these efforts were not successful when Grant's overland efforts had to retire.  Instead of Sherman terminating efforts on the rivers, when repulsed, he tried another water way.  Evidence the several efforts of Sherman to transport troops on the Yazoo and other waterways.  Both Grant and Sherman tried repeated attacks, when repulsed, they shifted to another route.  
Ron  

#46570 From: "James" <JWD2044@...>
Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 2:08 am
Subject: THE MAPS OF CHICKAMAUGA
james2044
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Dave Powell would not push his book but since I've reviewed it:

THE MAPS OF CHICKAMAUGA: An Atlas of the Chickamauga Campaign, Including the
Tullahoma Operations, June 22 - September 23, 1863 by David Powell
Product Details
 Hardcover: 320 pages
 Publisher: Savas Beatie (November 2009)
 Language: English
 ISBN-10: 1932714723
 ISBN-13: 978-1932714722
The Savas Beatie Military Atlas Series is one of the few "must have" sets in a
Civil War library.  Each book contains sequential detailed maps coupled with
excellent commentary solving the"map problem" that many current histories have. 
While inconvenient to keep two books opened, the maps in this series make the
effort worthwhile.  Each additional book in the series fine-tunes the
presentation resulting in a more informative narration and maps that are more
useful.  "Maps of Chickamauga" is the newest book in the series and benefits
from prior experience.  The maps are more colorful, the contour lines are
better.  David A. Fredrichs produced an outstanding series of maps for this
book.  His maps are clear, detailed and make it easy to follow this confusing
battle.  The scale of the battle maps is from 80 to 400 yards per inch,
depending on the action.  The majority of the maps are 120 to 200 yards per inch
giving a real tactical view of the battle.  The larger scale illustrates a
general situation or major movement.  Strategic Chickamauga maps are in miles
scale covering an area of up to 80 by 100 miles.  The Tullahoma Campaign map
scale is in miles except for the few critical actions that took place.  The
action maps scale is hundreds of yards per inch to accommodate the larger
cavalry areas.
Narration is the key to a good map book.  The author's narration is intelligent,
informative and to the point.  His excellent in-depth knowledge of the subject
gives him a confidence few authors have.
The book contains the following major sections:
Prelude: The Strategic Situation in 1863 is a concise, clear overview that sets
the stage for the campaign.
Map Set 1: The Tullahoma Campaign is a series of maps and narration that covers
this little known but very important campaign.
Map Set 2: Rosecrans Crosses the Tennessee presents the complex maneuvers in a
logical easy to understand manner.  The narration and maps complement each other
making the marches and counter marches understandable.
Map Set 3 through 16 cover the battle of Chickamauga.  They detail the actions
leading to the battle and the retreat into Chattanooga.  A map and narration can
be used answer a question.  The best use of this book is to capture the full
3-day of battle by follow the sequence of maps.  Doing that brought back some
memories of standing somewhere on that map, listening to the author tells us
about the fighting during his battlefield walks in March.
The book contains a complete Order of Battle for Tullahoma and Chickamauga.  A
full Bibliography, Endnotes and a must read Epilogue.  Every student of the war
in the West will want this excellent book in their library.

#46571 From: "carlw4514" <carlw4514@...>
Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 3:03 am
Subject: Re: Latest Edition of Blue
carlw4514
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if this is two different versions of intentions etc, what does the magazine
article seem to say?

#46572 From: "Tony" <tony_gunter@...>
Date: Thu Dec 3, 2009 4:57 am
Subject: Re: Latest Edition of Blue
tony_gunter
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--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Patricia Swan <pbswan@...> wrote:
>
> Let's see.  Did Grant order Sherman to Memphis to take the
> troops that McClernand was gathering there down to Vicksburg?

Grant was ordered to do so by Halleck.

> Did Grant plan to keep up pressure on Pemberton and fix him
> in position, preventing his going to Vicksburg?

Yes, which Grant did.  Only two brigades reached Vicksburg before Sherman's
assault, both of them were ordered south before Pemberton knew that Grant was
withdrawing back to Vicksburg.  Neither brigade participated appreciably in the
fighting at Chickasaw Bayou.

> Did Grant thus envision a coordinated action
> between his troops and those with Sherman?

No.  If Sherman's movement had been successful in carrying Vicksburg or causing
Pemberton to abandon Grenada, then Grant would have followed Pemberton closely
and rendezvoused with Sherman on the Yazoo at some point.  However, Sherman's
movement failed to do either.

> Please enlighten us.

Done.  Any other questions? :D

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