civilwarwest : Messages : 46503-46532 of 47301

David, we would love to hear that story... and I too scold keeno2 [will?] for
being dense and saying none were built in ILL.

#46504

From: "carlw4514" <carlw4514@...>
Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 11:02 am
Subject: Re: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)

carlw4514

I'm sure there are some great books on these city-class gunboats, but the
internet has spotty information. The Wikipedia entry has nothing about where
they were built [unless I missed it].

BTW if you have never edited a wikipedia entry it is something you can do and
sort of leave for posterity. Not that hard to do, although sometimes you are
challenged for a reference. Poor writing is actually less of a problem: it will
be corrected by others.

#46505

From: "carlw4514" <carlw4514@...>
Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 11:04 am
Subject: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!

carlw4514

According to a professor in a North Carolina University, what military event in
the Civil War killed more civilians than any other action on American soil until
September 11, 2001?

#46506

From: DORR64OVI@...
Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 10:26 am
Subject: Re: Re: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)

dorr64ovi

Ed Bearss book "Hardluck Ironclad", the story of the sinking and salvage of the Cairo reveals that the first 4 of Eads gunsboats were built at the Carondelet Marine Ways (today part of St Louis). This was a logical choice as St Louis had the dry dock facilities, was a machinery center and had a ready supply of skilled tradesmen to do the required work. Most importantly, since the gunboats were to be used on the Mississippi River, building them at St Louis meant that at completion, the boat could be quickly put into service. This was 1861and the thinking still was the war would be short.

The 3 remaining gunboats of the original 7 ordered, were built at the Mound City Marine Railway & Shipyard facilities.

The first gunboat launched was the Carondelet. The other three launched from St Louis were the St Louis, the Pittsburg, and the Louisville. The other three gunboats built at Mound City were the Cairo, the Mound City and the Cincinnati.

Kent Dorr

#46507

From: Tom Gilbert <tommygeebassman@...>
Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 3:28 pm
Subject: Re: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!

tommygeebassman

Sinking of the Sultana?

..Tom Gilbert

--- On Sat, 10/3/09, carlw4514 <carlw4514@...> wrote:

From: carlw4514 <carlw4514@...>
Subject: [civilwarwest] Trivia Question -- not even off topic!
To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, October 3, 2009, 7:04 AM

According to a professor in a North Carolina University, what military event in the Civil War killed more civilians than any other action on American soil until September 11, 2001?

#46508

From: "edkiniry" <wah_mei_1388@...>
Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 4:35 pm
Subject: Re: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)

edkiniry

Thank you for asking. The story is in a small notebook that my mother used as a
diary and a record of her collage days, about 1918. I found this story under a
heading "Stories my father told me about the Civil War."I will parapharase.

I took sick after Shiloh and was sent to a hospital in Mound City. after a few
weeks I wanted to return to my unit but the doctors thought I should still
nurse. I found two soldiers who wanted to stay and nurse but were to be released
and did not want to go. Me and my partner changed names with them and we left.
We were traveling to the unit, in Tennessee, when we were caught by the
sentries. we were taken before General Grant for a disposition. He said to the
sentries "These boys are all right, let them return to their unit, but you shall
make sure they get there." They joined the battery in time for Grant's march
along the RR toward Vicksburg, and fell back when Van Dorn raided their supply
depot at Holly Springs.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, swapped identities, a meeting of two
privates under guard, with General Grant and it turned out O. K. and it was MY
grandfather.
I am extremely glad that "mom" quieried her father about his experiences and
recorded them.

An interesting side note: The Federals could not communicate with Sherman, that
they would not make their part of the attack, but the rebels notified Pemberton
of what had happened. It was approximately the same distance, but Forrest had
made havoc with the Federal communications in Tennessee, and Grant could not
tell Sherman that it was "all off."

  David

--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "carlw4514" <carlw4514@...> wrote:
>
> David, we would love to hear that story... and I too scold keeno2 [will?] for
being dense and saying none were built in ILL.
>

#46509

From: "carlw4514" <carlw4514@...>
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 1:14 am
Subject: Re: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)

carlw4514

>I couldn't believe what I was reading, swapped identities,
>a meeting of two privates under guard, with General Grant
> and it turned out O. K. and it was MY grandfather.

yes, good story!

#46510

From: "carlw4514" <carlw4514@...>
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 1:23 am
Subject: Re: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)

carlw4514

Kent, with your permission I will insert this into the Wikipedia Article after a
double-check that it is not already in there

--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, DORR64OVI@... wrote:
>
> Ed Bearss book "Hardluck Ironclad", the story of the sinking and salvage of
>  the Cairo reveals that the first 4 of Eads gunsboats were built at the
> Carondelet Marine Ways (today part of St Louis).  This was a logical choice
> as St Louis had the dry dock facilities, was a machinery center and had a
> ready  supply of skilled tradesmen to do the required work.  Most importantly,
> since the gunboats were to be used on the Mississippi River, building them
> at St  Louis meant that at completion, the boat could be quickly put into
> service.  This was 1861and the thinking still was the war would be  short.
>      The 3 remaining gunboats of the original 7  ordered, were built at the
> Mound City Marine Railway & Shipyard  facilities.
>    The first gunboat launched was the Carondelet.   The other three
> launched from St Louis were the St Louis, the  Pittsburg, and the Louisville.
> The other  three gunboats built at Mound City were the Cairo, the Mound  City
> and the Cincinnati.
>
> Kent Dorr
>

#46511

From: DORR64OVI@...
Date: Sat Oct 3, 2009 10:15 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)

dorr64ovi

In a message dated 10/3/2009 9:24:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, carlw4514@... writes:

Kent, with your permission I will insert this into the Wikipedia Article after a double-check that it is not already in there

Please do.

Kent Dorr

#46512

From: "carlw4514" <carlw4514@...>
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 11:12 am
Subject: Re: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!

carlw4514

nope.
somebody should know this one: first hint: actually the t-miss theater

--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Tom Gilbert <tommygeebassman@...> wrote:
>
> Sinking of the Sultana?
> ..Tom Gilbert
>
> --- On Sat, 10/3/09, carlw4514 <carlw4514@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: carlw4514 <carlw4514@...>
> Subject: [civilwarwest] Trivia Question -- not even off topic!
> To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, October 3, 2009, 7:04 AM
>
>
> �
>
>
>
> According to a professor in a North Carolina University, what military event
in the Civil War killed more civilians than any other action on American soil
until September 11, 2001?
>

#46513

From: "carlw4514" <carlw4514@...>
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 12:24 pm
Subject: Re: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)

carlw4514

OK, Kent, this is a done deal, just edited your writing a bit. I give you credit
in the "history"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_class_ironclad

#46514

From: "Mary Hawthorne" <tboner1@...>
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 12:37 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!

maryblue1975

Do you consider "military" to be normal military engagement or is guerrilla activities counted as well?

----- Original Message -----

From: carlw4514

To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 7:12 AM

Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!

nope.
somebody should know this one: first hint: actually the t-miss theater

--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Tom Gilbert <tommygeebassman@...> wrote:
>
> Sinking of the Sultana?
> ..Tom Gilbert
>
> --- On Sat, 10/3/09, carlw4514 <carlw4514@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: carlw4514 <carlw4514@...>
> Subject: [civilwarwest] Trivia Question -- not even off topic!
> To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, October 3, 2009, 7:04 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> According to a professor in a North Carolina University, what military event in the Civil War killed more civilians than any other action on American soil until September 11, 2001?
>

#46515

From: NPeters102@...
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 12:51 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!

NPeters102@...

Lawrence, Kansas?

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

From: "Mary Hawthorne" <tboner1@...>

Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 08:37:52 -0400

To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!

Do you consider "military" to be normal military engagement or is guerrilla activities counted as well?

----- Original Message -----

From: carlw4514

To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 7:12 AM

Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!

nope.
somebody should know this one: first hint: actually the t-miss theater

--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Tom Gilbert <tommygeebassman@...> wrote:
>
> Sinking of the Sultana?
> ..Tom Gilbert
>
> --- On Sat, 10/3/09, carlw4514 <carlw4514@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: carlw4514 <carlw4514@...>
> Subject: [civilwarwest] Trivia Question -- not even off topic!
> To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, October 3, 2009, 7:04 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> According to a professor in a North Carolina University, what military event in the Civil War killed more civilians than any other action on American soil until September 11, 2001?
>

#46516

From: DORR64OVI@...
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 9:18 am
Subject: Re: Re: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)

dorr64ovi

Thanks Carl...I would recommend to anyone interested in the subject to read Bearss book on the Cairo.

Kent Dorr

#46517

From: "carlw4514" <carlw4514@...>
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 1:38 pm
Subject: Re: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!

carlw4514

The Professor would be citing something that some would consider as guerilla,
although I believe the commanding officer had a commission.

--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Hawthorne" <tboner1@...> wrote:
>
> Do you consider "military" to be normal military engagement or is guerrilla
activities counted as well?
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: carlw4514
>   To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 7:12 AM
>   Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!
>
>
>     nope.
>   somebody should know this one: first hint: actually the t-miss theater
>
>   --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Tom Gilbert <tommygeebassman@> wrote:
>   >
>   > Sinking of the Sultana?
>   > ..Tom Gilbert
>   >
>   > --- On Sat, 10/3/09, carlw4514 <carlw4514@> wrote:
>   >
>   >
>   > From: carlw4514 <carlw4514@>
>   > Subject: [civilwarwest] Trivia Question -- not even off topic!
>   > To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
>   > Date: Saturday, October 3, 2009, 7:04 AM
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > According to a professor in a North Carolina University, what military
event in the Civil War killed more civilians than any other action on American
soil until September 11, 2001?
>   >
>

#46518

From: "carlw4514" <carlw4514@...>
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 1:54 pm
Subject: Re: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!

carlw4514

Sir, you have beaten Blue Lady to it! Lawrence Kansas is correct! this from
Prokopowicz on his radio show. I think he was quoting from the author, they were
reviewing "Thomas Ewing Jr.: Frontier Lawyer and Civil War General  by Ronald D.
Smith"

I thought it was a remarkable fact [if it can't be disputed]

http://www.modavox.com/worldtalkradio/vshow.aspx?sid=865

--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, NPeters102@... wrote:
>
> Lawrence, Kansas?

#46519

From: "Mary Hawthorne" <tboner1@...>
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 2:07 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!

maryblue1975

Very good! So at least I was on the right track. When you said Military I wasn't sure if you were including guerrilla warfare or not. Well done!

----- Original Message -----

From: carlw4514

To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 9:54 AM

Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!

Sir, you have beaten Blue Lady to it! Lawrence Kansas is correct! this from Prokopowicz on his radio show. I think he was quoting from the author, they were reviewing "Thomas Ewing Jr.: Frontier Lawyer and Civil War General by Ronald D. Smith"

I thought it was a remarkable fact [if it can't be disputed]

http://www.modavox.com/worldtalkradio/vshow.aspx?sid=865

--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, NPeters102@... wrote:
>
> Lawrence, Kansas?

#46520

From: Tom Gilbert <tommygeebassman@...>
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 3:30 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!

tommygeebassman

Are you speaking of the "Lawrence Massacre" of Aug 21 1863? If so, a quick check tells me there were approx 200 civilians killed .. approx 1,800 died in the Sultana disaster .. but maybe it was some other event in Lawrence? .. tom g

--- On Sun, 10/4/09, carlw4514 <carlw4514@...> wrote:

From: carlw4514 <carlw4514@...>
Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!
To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, October 4, 2009, 9:54 AM

Sir, you have beaten Blue Lady to it! Lawrence Kansas is correct! this from Prokopowicz on his radio show. I think he was quoting from the author, they were reviewing "Thomas Ewing Jr.: Frontier Lawyer and Civil War General by Ronald D. Smith"

I thought it was a remarkable fact [if it can't be disputed]

http://www.modavox. com/worldtalkrad io/vshow. aspx?sid= 865

--- In civilwarwest@ yahoogroups. com, NPeters102@. .. wrote:
>
> Lawrence, Kansas?

#46521

From: DORR64OVI@...
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 11:40 am
Subject: Re: Re: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!

dorr64ovi

In a message dated 10/4/2009 11:37:42 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tommygeebassman@... writes:

e you speaking of the "Lawrence Massacre" of Aug 21 1863? If so, a quick check tells me there were approx 200 civilians killed .. approx 1,800 died in the Sultana disaster .. but maybe it was some other event in Lawrence? .. tom g

Key word is civilians.....the Sultana was mostly full of paroled Union soldiers released from Andersonville and Cahaba prisons. Known passengers and crew of the Sultana numbered 185.

Kent Dorr

#46522

From: "carlw4514" <carlw4514@...>
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 3:49 pm
Subject: Re: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!

carlw4514

The Sultana disaster killed soldiers and not many civilians [?] and was an
accident ... I'm guessing that would be the counter-argument. The position was
Prof. P's, or the author's

--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Tom Gilbert <tommygeebassman@...> wrote:
>
> Are you speaking of the "Lawrence Massacre" of Aug 21 1863? If so, a quick
check tells me there were approx 200 civilians killed .. approx 1,800 died in
the Sultana disaster .. but maybe it was some other event in Lawrence? .. tom g
>

#46523

From: "carlw4514" <carlw4514@...>
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 3:50 pm
Subject: Re: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!

carlw4514

and also that it was an accident; otherwise pretty close count on civilians!


>
> Key word is civilians.....the Sultana was mostly full of paroled Union
> soldiers released from Andersonville and Cahaba prisons.  Known passengers 
and
> crew of the Sultana numbered 185.
>
> Kent Dorr
>

#46524

From: NPeters102@...
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 12:10 pm
Subject: Franklin Question

NPeters102@...

According to a soldier of the 64th Ohio Infantry, Conrad's Brigade, & re: action in & around the Carter House:

"I saw at this time a stampede of our own men. They were rushing down towards town. Some Zouave officers, mounted and armed to the teeth, deployed across the pike and flourishing their swords and revolvers, swore terribly that they would shoot the first man who undertook to pass, but all to no avail."

What Zouave units fought at Franklin?

Respectfully,

Mike Peters
npeters102@...
colliszouave@...

#46525

From: fwnash@...
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 4:21 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)

daz0463

Mr K

Wonderful story. Thanks for sharing. I often wonder what our great great grandchildren will think of our lives and artifacts.

Your phrase “marched along the RR towards Vicksburg” peaked my interest. As you are probably aware, my interest involves inland river steamboats from 1850-1870. I am also interested in Civil War railroads in Pittsburgh. There is a CWWT topic “Railroads” dated 20 Oct 2002. After I read the entries, I may throw out another possibly nutty idea.

Speaking of crazy, did we reach any conclusion on where the war was won, and who won it? Vicksburg and the Pook Turtles or Pittsburgh and the rivermen or?!? Currently, the topic has more than sixty entries and, in my opinion, the discussion has been quite interesting and entertaining.

Fran Nash

----- Original Message -----
From: "edkiniry" <wah_mei_1388@...>
To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2009 12:35:53 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Where the War REALLY was Won (and who won it)

Thank you for asking. The story is in a small notebook that my mother used as a diary and a record of her collage days, about 1918. I found this story under a heading "Stories my father told me about the Civil War."I will parapharase.

I took sick after Shiloh and was sent to a hospital in Mound City. after a few weeks I wanted to return to my unit but the doctors thought I should still nurse. I found two soldiers who wanted to stay and nurse but were to be released and did not want to go. Me and my partner changed names with them and we left. We were traveling to the unit, in Tennessee, when we were caught by the sentries. we were taken before General Grant for a disposition. He said to the sentries "These boys are all right, let them return to their unit, but you shall make sure they get there." They joined the battery in time for Grant's march along the RR toward Vicksburg, and fell back when Van Dorn raided their supply depot at Holly Springs.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, swapped identities, a meeting of two privates under guard, with General Grant and it turned out O. K. and it was MY grandfather.
I am extremely glad that "mom" quieried her father about his experiences and recorded them.

An interesting side note: The Federals could not communicate with Sherman, that they would not make their part of the attack, but the rebels notified Pemberton of what had happened. It was approximately the same distance, but Forrest had made havoc with the Federal communications in Tennessee, and Grant could not tell Sherman that it was "all off."

David

--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "carlw4514" <carlw4514@...> wrote:
>
> David, we would love to hear that story... and I too scold keeno2 [will?] for being dense and saying none were built in ILL.
>

#46526

From: NPeters102@...
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 12:21 pm
Subject: Re: Franklin Question

NPeters102@...

I am leaning toward the 59th Ilinois as the unit containing the Zouave officers. Thoughts?

Respectfully,

Mike Peters
npeters102@...
colliszouave@...

In a message dated 10/04/2009 12:16:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, NPeters102@... writes:

According to a soldier of the 64th Ohio Infantry, Conrad's Brigade, & re: action in & around the Carter House:

"I saw at this time a stampede of our own men. They were rushing down towards town. Some Zouave officers, mounted and armed to the teeth, deployed across the pike and flourishing their swords and revolvers, swore terribly that they would shoot the first man who undertook to pass, but all to no avail."

What Zouave units fought at Franklin?

Respectfully,

Mike Peters
npeters102@aol.com
colliszouave@yahoo.com

#46527

From: DORR64OVI@...
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 12:50 pm
Subject: Re: Franklin Question

dorr64ovi

In a message dated 10/4/2009 12:16:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, NPeters102@... writes:

ording to a soldier of the 64th Ohio Infantry, Conrad's Brigade, & re: action in & around the Carter House:

"I saw at this time a stampede of our own men. They were rushing down towards town. Some Zouave officers, mounted and armed to the teeth, deployed across the pike and flourishing their swords and revolvers, swore terribly that they would shoot the first man who undertook to pass, but all to no avail."

What Zouave units fought at Franklin?

Whose account from the 64th OVI is this from?

Kent Dorr

#46528

From: NPeters102@...
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 5:07 pm
Subject: Re: Franklin Question

NPeters102@...

Kent,

The soldier's surname was "Keesy."

Mike Peters

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

From: DORR64OVI@...

Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 12:50:33 EDT

To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Franklin Question

In a message dated 10/4/2009 12:16:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, NPeters102@aol.com writes:

ording to a soldier of the 64th Ohio Infantry, Conrad's Brigade, & re: action in & around the Carter House:

"I saw at this time a stampede of our own men. They were rushing down towards town. Some Zouave officers, mounted and armed to the teeth, deployed across the pike and flourishing their swords and revolvers, swore terribly that they would shoot the first man who undertook to pass, but all to no avail."

What Zouave units fought at Franklin?

Whose account from the 64th OVI is this from?

Kent Dorr

#46529

From: DORR64OVI@...
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 1:11 pm
Subject: Re: Franklin Question

dorr64ovi

In a message dated 10/4/2009 1:09:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, NPeters102@... writes:

Kent,

The soldier's surname was "Keesy."

Ok then this is from Keesy's memoirs..War as Viewed from the Ranks.

Kent Dorr

#46530

From: DORR64OVI@...
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 1:22 pm
Subject: Re: Franklin Question

dorr64ovi

In a message dated 10/4/2009 1:17:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, DORR64OVI@... writes:

The soldier's surname was "Keesy."

Ok then this is from Keesy's memoirs..War as Viewed from the Ranks.

Kent Dorr

I just grabbed my copy of Keesys book from my library and his account of Franklin doesn't mention the Zouave officers. Is this from another account?

Kent Dorr

#46531

From: NPeters102@...
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 5:56 pm
Subject: Re: Franklin Question

NPeters102@...

Kent,

The quote is from the "Eyewitness" series compiled by Logsdon.

Mike Peters

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

From: DORR64OVI@...

Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 13:22:13 EDT

To: <civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Franklin Question

In a message dated 10/4/2009 1:17:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, DORR64OVI@aol.com writes:

The soldier's surname was "Keesy."

Ok then this is from Keesy's memoirs..War as Viewed from the Ranks.

Kent Dorr

I just grabbed my copy of Keesys book from my library and his account of Franklin doesn't mention the Zouave officers. Is this from another account?

Kent Dorr

#46532

From: Bob Huddleston <huddleston.r@...>
Date: Sun Oct 4, 2009 11:50 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Trivia Question -- not even off topic!

huddlestonus

Quantrill claimed he had a commission but there is no evidence that he did.

Take care,
Bob
Judy and Bob Huddleston
10643 Sperry Street
Northglenn, CO 80234-3612
Huddleston.r@...
“There must be more historians of the Civil War than there were generals fighting it, and, of the two groups, the historians are the more belligerent.” David Donald

carlw4514 wrote:

The Professor would be citing something that some would consider as guerilla, although I believe the commanding officer had a commission.