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Messages 35075 - 35104 of 47301   Oldest  |  < Older  |  Newer >  |  Newest
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#35075 From: hooperjwboro@...
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:55 pm
Subject: RE: Re: The Myth of Nathan Bedford Forrest
hooperjwboro
Send Email Send Email
 
Hey Tom,
   Proven that Rommell did not come but was a rumor when another German visited the southeast pre WW2
--
Respectfully,
John Hooper
 
-------------- Original message --------------

I heard that Irwin Rommel studied Forrest’s work while visiting America.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hooperjwboro@...
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 8:24 PM
To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: The Myth of Nathan Bedford Forrest

 

Forrest was elevated during and shortly after the war by R.E. Lee  and Sherman.

By West Point ? someone help me. By international military figures ? . IIRC in Memphis with the park and statue ,1880's. In hometown, birth, Chapel Hill Tn, preWW2.   

 

--
Respectfully,
John Hooper

 

-------------- Original message --------------
--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Huddleston"
<huddleston.r@c...> wrote:

> And, of relevance here, why was Forrest not included? He was a corps
> commander and a lieutenant general. In the early years of the twentieth
> century, was Bedford Forrest not considered to be in the Confederate
> pantheon? If not, when did he become one of the Most Famous Civil War
> Generals? I can not imagine a similar poster today not including
Forrest.

I can speculate on why he wasn't included.

(1)  He was a slavetrader, and such were looked down upon by the
upper crust of Southern society, such as those interested in
building the Lee monument.

(2)  He was a leader in the Klan, which carried some of the
same anathema.

It is my sense that NBF's elevation to the upper echelon of
the Confederate pantheon is a relatively modern thing.

JFE


 


#35076 From: "Bill Gower" <billgower@...>
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:20 pm
Subject: River Run Red and Fort Pillow
wgower2000
Send Email Send Email
 

I just received my copy today and started reading it.  I know that James is reading it also.  I am wondering if others would be interested in reading it and then let’s have a discussion about the book, since this is a topic that is currently occupying the forum.

 

Bill

 


#35077 From: banbruner@...
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:21 pm
Subject: Re: Re: The Myth of Nathan Bedford Forrest
banbruner@...
Send Email Send Email
 
In a message dated 9/30/2005 11:22:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, DPowell334@... writes:
In a message dated 9/30/2005 6:21:19 AM Central Standard Time, banbruner@... writes:
I have never heard the story about Rommel but I have heard from various sources that Forrest's tactics at Brices Cross Roads are widely studied at many military schools throughout the world. Is  this also false.  Rommel would not have had visit the U.S. to have studied Forrestk's work.
Bill Bruner
 
I have never seen a 19th Century text that highlighted Forrest. The Brits, who spent the
The only purpose of this post is to give thanks for the informed and lucid answer to my question. Thank you for your time and effort..
Bill Bruner

#35078 From: "Bob Huddleston" <huddleston.r@...>
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:09 pm
Subject: Hiking through history uphill
huddlestonus
Send Email Send Email
 
Hiking through history uphill
Associated Press - August 30
The final attack on the bloodiest day of the Civil War was literally an
uphill battle.  Now a trail at Antietam National Battlefield lets hikers
feel the strain that soldiers from both sides experienced marching over
hilly farm fields toward a meeting that ended with the Union failing to
corner Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee.
http://www.herald-mail.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=118945&format=html

Take care,

Bob

Judy and Bob Huddleston
10643 Sperry Street
Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
303.451.6376  Huddleston.r@...

Please try to understand this. It's not an easy thing to hear, but please
listen. There is no morality in warfare. You kill children. You kill women.
You kill old men. You don't seek them out, but they die. That's what happens
in war. - Paul Tibbets

#35079 From: CAMPAIGN62@...
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:01 pm
Subject: Re: Fort Pillow
CAMPAIGN62@...
Send Email Send Email
 
The Critter Co book seems to be largely discredited because itm is more
fiction than fact. Wyeth is usually accwepted as accurate.

  Best regards,

Jim h

#35080 From: CAMPAIGN62@...
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:20 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Fort Pillow --- some data
CAMPAIGN62@...
Send Email Send Email
 
I think the word massacre  is misleading. The garrison was not wiped out and
every UCT was not killed. This word comes from the propagana about Ft Pillow
and is what seems tro have caused the controversy in the first place.

#35081 From: "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@...>
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:31 pm
Subject: Ecelbarger's "Black Jack Logan"
tony_gunter
Send Email Send Email
 
Bought it through Amazon, it arrived today.  I just flipped through the
section on the Battle of Raymond, and it's terrible.  Just dead wrong
on all counts.  Worst version of the battle I have read yet.

#35082 From: "cashg79" <CashG79@...>
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:32 pm
Subject: Re: Fort Pillow --- some data
cashg79
Send Email Send Email
 
--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, CAMPAIGN62@A... wrote:

> I think the word massacre  is misleading. The garrison was not wiped
out and
> every UCT was not killed.
--------------------
Not required for there to be a massacre.

mas·sa·cre n.
1.  The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans
indiscriminately and cruelly.
2.  The slaughter of a large number of animals.
3.  Informal. A severe defeat, as in a sports event.

Regards,
Cash

#35083 From: "William H Keene" <wh_keene@...>
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:21 pm
Subject: Re: Ecelbarger's "Black Jack Logan"
wh_keene
Send Email Send Email
 
Worst yet?  Ouch.

--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@y...> wrote:
>
> Bought it through Amazon, it arrived today.  I just flipped through the
> section on the Battle of Raymond, and it's terrible.  Just dead wrong
> on all counts.  Worst version of the battle I have read yet.

#35084 From: Jfepperson@...
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:21 pm
Subject: Re: River Run Red and Fort Pillow
jfe13
Send Email Send Email
 
In a message dated 9/30/2005 2:16:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, billgower@... writes:

I just received my copy today and started reading it.  I know that James is reading it also.  I am wondering if others would be interested in reading it and then let’s have a discussion about the book, since this is a topic that is currently occupying the forum. 

=====
That is a perfectly reasonable idea, except my personal Mount Toberead is too
large to have anything added to it.  Besides, I am under orders about spending
money on books; something about sleeping on the couch if anything else
comes in.
 
JFE

James F. Epperson
http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/causes.html
http://members.aol.com/siege1864

#35085 From: hooperjwboro@...
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:22 pm
Subject: Re: Re: The Myth of Nathan Bedford Forrest
hooperjwboro
Send Email Send Email
 
Dave ,  Gen is suggesting100-5 uses Forrest's tactics without giving him credit, it seems you are content to discredit Forrest.  Nonetheless, Forrest performed at Bryces Cross Roads without anyones manual or any WP training.
 
Respectfully,
John Hooper
 
-------------- Original message --------------
In a message dated 9/30/2005 11:41:16 AM Central Standard Time, GnrlJEJohnston@... writes:
Yet Dave, the study of the battle of Brice's Cross Roads shows that Forrest's tactics and strategy epitomizes the intent of FM 100-5   Operations.
JEJ

#35086 From: hooperjwboro@...
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:07 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Fort Pillow --- some data
hooperjwboro
Send Email Send Email
 
Cash,
  That fact  may be true but I dont think JFE understood Joseph's point. Dealing with the laws of sampling, the point could bemore valid if the white and black troops fought as a mixed unit than separate.
  An example would be :    if a child walked in a candy store and there were two bowls of jelly beans, one with red beans and one with green. If later when inspecting the bowls, most of the green jelly beans were gone and none of the red. Two main assumptions could be made. 1. Liked green better
                                                             2. Did not matter, green was closer to reach.
 
  Now, if the green and red were mixed and all the green were gone, then you would positively know the child liked green better
 
 
 
--
Respectfully,
John Hooper
 
-------------- Original message --------------
--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Dan G <dan6764@y...> wrote:
> I have been following this debate with a great deal of interest.. 
Everyone wonders why the proportion of dead and wounded between CSA
and US forces is so greatly out of balance  Seems like most of the
answers ansumes that the main reason was the deliberate massacre of US
troops by Forrests men.. 
------------
Not quite, Dan.  It's the distribution of the dead and wounded among
the Union troops between blacks and whites.  There were so many more
blacks killed than whites, and so fewer wounded blacks than whites
that it highly suggests blacks were especially targeted.  That there
were a disproportionate killed rather than wounded suggests a
massacre.  That combined with the eyewitness accounts is what leads to
the conclusion of a massacre by Forrest's men.

Regards,
Cash




#35087 From: "James2044" <JWD2044@...>
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:30 pm
Subject: Re: Fort Pillow --- some data
james2044
Send Email Send Email
 
> James2044 <JWD2044@h...> wrote:
> Are
> we "proving" something that could not be "proven" at the time?  It
> seems that many are trying to do that.

--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, Steve Saultz <tristan4th@y...>
wrote:
>
>                    Very well stated James,.,..Thankyou
>                                        Respectfully Capt.McCracken


You are welcome, I feel we need to defend history from those that wish
to rewrite it to suit "current thinking".

James2044

#35088 From: "James2044" <JWD2044@...>
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:39 pm
Subject: Re: Fort Pillow --- some data
james2044
Send Email Send Email
 
--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Gower" <billgower@c...>
wrote:
> Yes in 1864 and in the South and that says it all.

It is as wrong to ascribe trates to all blacks or all Irish or all
germans as it is to ascribe trates to all white southerners.
However, most seem to think that is isn't wrong to do that and your
statement is the result.

It is not possible that ALL of the CSA forces were raciest!

It is not possible that all of the USA forces were not raciest!

It is not possible that all slaves were unhappy and longed to be
free!

It is not possible that all slaves were happy and delighted in
slavery!

It is possible that part of the group accept the 1st & 3rd statments
as possible, while part of the group accepts the 2nd & 4th as
possible.

Raciest statements are directed against a group of class, race,
gender or anything else have little to do with it.

James2044

#35089 From: "James2044" <JWD2044@...>
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:50 pm
Subject: Re: Fort Pillow --- some data
james2044
Send Email Send Email
 
Sorry Jack but I don't agree with you.  The ACW is full of "Ft. Pillow"
type actions BUT only here is it so Black & White, pardon the pun.
White on White or Native American on White get passed over with anry a
comment.  White on Native American while not as good as White on Black
will always get comments.  For example, check my Ft. Pillows posting.
I listed a couple that had nothing to do with Blacks but we ended up a
Sand Creek.

James2044

--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Ehmer" <ohio11thcav@a...>
wrote:
> I would say that your statement certainly indicates the lack of
> historical objectivity that Dr. Schiller referred to.
>
> Jack
>
> --- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "tristan4th" <tristan4th@y...>
> wrote:>
> >
> <snip>
>
>               Oh I'll probably get in trouble for this, as well
> as
> > offend...But IMO, You hit the nail on the head here Mr.Gower..."we"
> > would have moved on to another interesting battle, instead of
> > creating an argument for the NAACP to figure out........
>
> <snip>

#35090 From: Jfepperson@...
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:05 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Fort Pillow --- some data
jfe13
Send Email Send Email
 
In a message dated 9/30/2005 7:31:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, JWD2044@... writes:
You are welcome, I feel we need to defend history from those that wish
to rewrite it to suit "current thinking".
=====
I wasn't aware that the massacre of black men in US uniform was something
restricted to suit "current thinking".
JFE
 

James F. Epperson
http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/causes.html
http://members.aol.com/siege1864

#35091 From: "Dick Weeks" <shotgun@...>
Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 3:22 am
Subject: Attention!! Fort Pillow Thread Is Now Hooked!!
shotgun20170
Send Email Send Email
 
I was hoping I would not have to do this but it looks as if some of the
emails are reaching a tone that will not be tolerated in this group.  No
more discussions on Fort Pillow or Nathan Bedford Forrest as he relates to
blacks.  If you want to discuss some of the battles that Forrest was in feel
free to do so.  If you want to discuss how he related to the Black issue,
find another group. I had thought that we might have overcome the Fort
Pillow problem that is why I let it continue but I was wrong.  AGAIN, Fort
Pillow is to be discussed no more in this group.  Anyone that has a problem
with this is welcome to contact me via private email.  An email to the group
about it is going to cause the sender a real problem.

I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
Dick (a.k.a. Shotgun)
http://www.civilwarhome.com

#35092 From: "Tom Mix" <tmix@...>
Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 12:22 am
Subject: RE: Re: Ecelbarger's "Black Jack Logan"
tmix@...
Send Email Send Email
 
Mine just arrived yesterday but I have not looked at Raymond yet. That
does mot make me feel good about the investment ( cash or time ).

-----Original Message-----
From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of William H Keene
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 4:22 PM
To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [civilwarwest] Re: Ecelbarger's "Black Jack Logan"

Worst yet?  Ouch.

--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Gunter" <tony_gunter@y...>
wrote:
>
> Bought it through Amazon, it arrived today.  I just flipped through
the
> section on the Battle of Raymond, and it's terrible.  Just dead wrong
> on all counts.  Worst version of the battle I have read yet.






Yahoo! Groups Links

#35093 From: CAMPAIGN62@...
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:47 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Fort Pillow --- some data
CAMPAIGN62@...
Send Email Send Email
 
I think The Crater was also a Black and White action with much the same
results.

Best regards,

Jim h

#35094 From: keeno2@...
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:50 pm
Subject: Re: River Run Red and Fort Pillow
keeno2@...
Send Email Send Email
 
In a message dated 9/30/2005 4:22:40 PM Central Daylight Time, Jfepperson@... writes:
That is a perfectly reasonable idea, except my personal Mount Toberead is too
large to have anything added to it.  Besides, I am under orders about spending
money on books; something about sleeping on the couch if anything else
comes in.
There's a perfectly logical solution: get a comfortable couch.
Ken

#35095 From: CAMPAIGN62@...
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:57 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Start of the War
CAMPAIGN62@...
Send Email Send Email
 
I know I'm going to hear about this, but IMHO "Honest Abe" Lincoln started
the war. He sent a ship to provision the fort despite warnings. He thus left
Jeff D and  PGTB on the horns of a dilema. Do you let the ship through or fire
on
it to show your sovernty?

If the scoolyard bully pushes you down, and you get up and throw a punch at
him/her, didn't you start the fight?

Best regards,

Jim H

#35096 From: Rick Moody <r_moody@...>
Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 1:00 am
Subject: Thank You for pulling Ft Pillow
r_moody
Send Email Send Email
 
1300+ messages this month and most are of the "Your
wrong, idiot, stupid, and I'm right BS".  Thanks for
closing the thread!

Rick Moody
r_moody@...


When you arise in the morning,
give thanks for the morning light,
for your life and strength.
Give thanks for your food,
and the joy of living.

If you see no reason for giving thanks,
the fault lies with yourself.

Tecumseh, Shawnee (The Southern People)



__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com

#35097 From: keeno2@...
Date: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:03 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Start of the War
keeno2@...
Send Email Send Email
 
In a message dated 9/30/2005 7:58:08 PM Central Daylight Time, CAMPAIGN62@... writes:
If the scoolyard bully pushes you down, and you get up and throw a punch at
him/her, didn't you start the fight?
I'm confused. Who is the bully? Who threw the first  punch? If a bully wanted to feed his dog and you kicked it, who is justified in throwing any punch?
Ken

#35098 From: "Laurence D. Schiller" <LDS307@...>
Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 1:45 am
Subject: East vs West
laurenceschi...
Send Email Send Email
 
At 11:20 AM +0000 9/30/05, civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>  Forrest elevation has always been on a regional basis. West Point,
>GA, AL, MS, TN
>>  --
>Most post war emphasis was on the Eastern area of operations.
>Perhaps, NBF began to receive recognition when the importance of the
>West began to be accepted.  Hard to study the area of our interest
>without coming accross NBF.
>
>Norris

Norris - you are absolutely correct - the Eastern theatre until
recently dominated everything, but the Western theatre has been
growing in people's minds and much excellent work has been produced
on the west and trans-Mississippi. As with everything, the pendulum
swings...

Best,

Laurie Schiller
--
Dr. Laurence Dana Schiller

#35099 From: "Laurence D. Schiller" <LDS307@...>
Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 2:11 am
Subject: lots of posts
laurenceschi...
Send Email Send Email
 
At 11:20 AM +0000 9/30/05, civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>If you take a day or two off you could have a couple
>of hundred posts to go through at times.  Oh my aching
>wrist.
>
>Shotgun, add to the rules that we can't sue for Carpal
>Tunnel from reading or posting too many messages.  :-)
>
>
>
>
>Rick Moody
>r_moody@...

Rick - I know what you mean - I often miss time and have to go
through lots of digests containing dozens of posts.

Best,

Laurie Schiller
--
Dr. Laurence Dana Schiller

#35100 From: "Laurence D. Schiller" <LDS307@...>
Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 2:12 am
Subject: My pleasure
laurenceschi...
Send Email Send Email
 
At 11:20 AM +0000 9/30/05, civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>Message: 22
>    Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:44:44 EDT
>    From: keeno2@...
>Subject: Re: A question of historical analysis
>
>Thank you! Thank you! Thank you, Laurie.
>Ken
>

My pleasure - just trying to add to the discussion.

Best,

Laurie Schiller
--
Dr. Laurence Dana Schiller

#35101 From: Stanley Balsky <balsky@...>
Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 2:40 am
Subject: Re: Re: Start of the War
BalskyCPA
Send Email Send Email
 
--- CAMPAIGN62@... wrote:


---------------------------------
I know I'm going to hear about this, but IMHO "Honest
Abe" Lincoln started
the war. He sent a ship to provision the fort despite
warnings. He thus left
Jeff D and  PGTB on the horns of a dilema. Do you let
the ship through or fire on
it to show your sovernty?

If the scoolyard bully pushes you down, and you get up
and throw a punch at
him/her, didn't you start the fight?

Best regards,

Jim H
    Jim:
Did SC Secede from the Union?Did the North have a
valid argument that that was not legal ?
Was Lincoln not sending supplies to troops he felt
were in lawful posses ion of Government property ?
Stan

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#35102 From: "Laurence D. Schiller" <LDS307@...>
Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 3:00 am
Subject: Red herrings
laurenceschi...
Send Email Send Email
 
Absolutely correct Ken - the bit about Northern substitutes is
completely irrelevant. But, you know, one thing that keeps getting
overlooked in this whole discussion is that while there were few
anywhere in the US who considered African-Americans equal to white
people, there were many who considered slavery an evil and considered
that shooting surrendering USCT troops a crime. This isn't just a
modern view, but existed at the time as well.

Best,

Laurie Schiller

At 5:01 PM +0000 9/30/05, civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>I figure the original statement "time and location" meant, simply, that today
>we may be shocked and appalled at what appears to be a disparity between the
>number of white and black deaths. Then, the situation was considerably
>different.
>
>We are being asked, not to condone, but to understand. Given the heat, the
>prevailing attitude, and the CS official position on black soldiers, it is
>understandable. Forgiveable is a personal matter.
>
>The red herring of eastern substitutes and immigrants is familiar.
>Ken

--
Dr. Laurence Dana Schiller

#35103 From: "Tom Mix" <tmix@...>
Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 4:20 am
Subject: RE: Re: The Myth of Nathan Bedford Forrest
tmix@...
Send Email Send Email
 

Thanks, John.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hooperjwboro@...
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 12:56 PM
To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [civilwarwest] Re: The Myth of Nathan Bedford Forrest

 

Hey Tom,

   Proven that Rommell did not come but was a rumor when another German visited the southeast pre WW2

--
Respectfully,
John Hooper

 

-------------- Original message --------------

I heard that Irwin Rommel studied Forrest’s work while visiting America.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com [mailto:civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hooperjwboro@...
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 8:24 PM
To: civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [civilwarwest] Re: The Myth of Nathan Bedford Forrest

 

Forrest was elevated during and shortly after the war by R.E. Lee  and Sherman.

By West Point ? someone help me. By international military figures ? . IIRC in Memphis with the park and statue ,1880's. In hometown, birth, Chapel Hill Tn, preWW2.   

 

--
Respectfully,
John Hooper

 

-------------- Original message --------------
--- In civilwarwest@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Huddleston"
<huddleston.r@c...> wrote:

> And, of relevance here, why was Forrest not included? He was a corps
> commander and a lieutenant general. In the early years of the twentieth
> century, was Bedford Forrest not considered to be in the Confederate
> pantheon? If not, when did he become one of the Most Famous Civil War
> Generals? I can not imagine a similar poster today not including
Forrest.

I can speculate on why he wasn't included.

(1)  He was a slavetrader, and such were looked down upon by the
upper crust of Southern society, such as those interested in
building the Lee monument.

(2)  He was a leader in the Klan, which carried some of the
same anathema.

It is my sense that NBF's elevation to the upper echelon of
the Confederate pantheon is a relatively modern thing.

JFE

 

 


#35104 From: keeno2@...
Date: Sat Oct 1, 2005 12:29 am
Subject: Re: Red herrings
keeno2@...
Send Email Send Email
 
In a message dated 9/30/2005 10:03:27 PM Central Daylight Time, LDS307@... writes:
This isn't just a
modern view, but existed at the time as well.
Good point, Laurie. I tend to drift into the all or none camp from time to time. Good of you to arrest the drift.
Thanks, Ken

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