That's not impossible!
Today's 'falling into place of matter' doesn't suggest that it's inevitable, but
it's not entirely impossible.


Maynard S. Clark
http://www.HSPH.Harvard.edu/bioethics@ HSPH
http://www.HSPH.Harvard.edu
http://GHSM.HMS.Harvard.edu/- GHSM @ HMS
http://Maynard.Clark.GooglePages.com/- My busiest blog - http://bit.ly/10qaTF
        You may 'friend' me on all social media
Chat  Maynard.Clark  MaynardClark@...  MaynardSClark@... 
THots8421  SanDiego95  MaynardSClark  VegResCtr  MaynardClark
Contact Me

Maynard S. Clark  MaynardClark@...
http://Maynard.Clark.GooglePages.com - Links ALL my blogs and photo sites
"Making  connections  for  plant-based  diets"
Vegetarian Resource Center   (since 1993)
P. O. Box 38-1068; Cambridge, MA 02238-1068 USA
617-571-4794 (cell)   Maynard.Clark@...
http://maynardclark.spaces.live.com -Maynard's Veggie and Boston Blog







________________________________
From: Heidi Huse <drheidi@...>
To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, December 9, 2009 10:55:04 PM
Subject: RE: [CVA] "'Eat less meat' says carbon footprint burger chain"


I'm still waiting for the "golden arches" to become McVeggies.  Then I'll be
happy.

From: christianveg@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:christianveg@ yahoogroups. com] On
Behalf Of ling gao
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 12:21 PM
To: christianveg@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [CVA] "'Eat less meat' says carbon footprint burger chain"

Great news! Maybe soon we should see such labels in all meat /diary products,
just likethe notice on the cigarrette packages, on the harmfuleffect of it.
Ling



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

12/10/09

Be of Good Cheer....I worked very hard to get "THE SALAD BAR" IN at MC
D's....Most HAVE!  THEY ARE LOADED WITH SALAD LETTUCES...VEGGIES....ALL TYPES OF
BEANS! 20 Years ago...You'd Be Surprised!


To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
From: drheidi@...
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 21:55:04 -0600
Subject: RE: [CVA] "'Eat less meat' says carbon footprint burger chain"

I'm still waiting for the "golden arches" to become McVeggies. Then I'll be
happy.

It is difficult and I am not by any means implying that there are no vegans in
democracy, but sadly it is mainly about money and that is what capitalism is
founded on. To say animal cruelty is ALL a economic fault is silly, but the
torture is real and gut wrenching. Why? because profit is involved..........
animal agriculture is sadistic, as they say money is the root of all evil. It is
quite pretentious how television/radio does not document the meat factories, out
of sight out of mind-you make more money that way.

Blair Marie.

I'm still waiting for the "golden arches" to become McVeggies.  Then I'll be
happy.


From: christianveg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:christianveg@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of ling gao
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 12:21 PM
To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CVA] "'Eat less meat' says carbon footprint burger chain"

Great news! Maybe soon we should see such labels in all meat /diary products,
just likethe notice on the cigarrette packages, on the harmfuleffect of it.
Ling

WELCOME to the All-Creatures.org Weekly eNewsletter for December 10, 2009


PLEASE FORWARD!

VIEW the eNewsletter ONLINE
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/news-20091210.html

If our eNewsletter was forwarded to or you found in online and you would
like to receive it weekly, please send us an email <flh@...>.

If you are interested in joining or know vegan/vegetarian Christians who
might want to join our Veg-Christian discussion list, send an email
<flh@...>.


SITE FEATURES

SEARCH - Find thousands of images, articles, stories, videos, poems

Video Library
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/video.html

Animal Exploitation Photo Gallery
http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/index.html

Calendar of Events
http://www.all-creatures.org/events.html

24 Vegetarian/Vegan Pastors and Churches
http://www.all-creatures.org/church/churchdir.html


GOOD NEWS FOR ANIMALS

OSU Stops Primate Torture: Panties Bunched Up by Baboons
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-osustops.html

Romanian Police Will Now Really Protect the Animals
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-romanian.html

Grant County Horses Remain with Rescuers
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-grant.html

Berlin Creates Rest Stop for Weary Beavers
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-berlin.html

West Africa's Last Giraffes Make Surprise Comeback
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-westgiraffe.html

One-Year Sentence for Indonesian Parrot Trader
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-oneyear.html

Sea Shepherd's Steve Irwin Retains the Dutch Tri-Color
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-seaflag.html

Huge UK Cave Spiders Returned Home
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-huge.html

Greyhound Racing Is Officially Over in Massachusetts
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-greyhoundmass.html


ANIMAL STORIES & POETRY

The Goose Formerly Known as Lucifer
http://www.all-creatures.org/stories/a-lucifer.html

A Message From "The Bridge"
http://www.all-creatures.org/poetry/ar-message.html

Among The Weeds
http://www.all-creatures.org/poetry/ar-among.html

A Leopard and a Rat
http://www.all-creatures.org/stories/a-leopard.html


ANIMAL RIGHTS ARTICLES AND ITEMS OF INTEREST

Last Bastion of Morality
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-bastion.html

But You Kill Ants
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/but.html

Update on "Turning Copenhagen into CopenVegan"
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/env-update.html

Salmonella Causes Product Recall of Cream Cheese and Nacho Cheese Products
http://www.all-creatures.org/health/fh-nacho.html

Carriage Horses: A Day in the Life
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/video-carriagehorses.html

New Mexico Dairy Pollution Sparks 'Manure War'
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/env-newmexico.html

Mice Holding Back Muscular Dystrophy Research?
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-mice.html

The Lisbon Treaty: Recognizing Animal Sentience
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-lisbon.html

Last Gasp for American Foie Gras?
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/env-last.html

The Dog Meat Mafia
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/ar-dogmeat01.html


ACTION ALERTS

Tell DailyCandy That Pigs are NOT Good Gifts
http://www.all-creatures.org/alert/alert-20091208-2.html

Tell Your Senators to Support the Shark Conservation Act
http://www.all-creatures.org/alert/alert-20091207.html

Save 6000 Camels
http://www.all-creatures.org/alert/alert-20091205.html

fffashion: 2nd Annual Fur Free Fashion Competition
http://www.all-creatures.org/alert/alert-20091205-2.html

How Could They? 250,000 Animals Butchered Alive In Nepal
http://www.all-creatures.org/alert/alert-20091206.html

Nordstrom Must Permanently Remove Fur From All Their Stores
http://www.all-creatures.org/alert/alert-20091209.html


RECIPES - LET NO ANIMAL DIE THAT WE MAY LIVE!

Spinach Pizza
http://www.all-creatures.org/recipes/pizza-spin.html

Zucchini Cinnamon Raisin Bread
http://www.all-creatures.org/recipes/zucccinraisbread.html

Vegan Recipe Book
Photos - http://www.all-creatures.org/recipes.html
No Photos - http://www.all-creatures.org/recipes/index.html


THIS WEEK'S SERMON
The Hypocrisy of Christmas "Peace on Earth"
http://www.all-creatures.org/sermons98/s20091206.html
(sermons are formatted for easy delivery and sharing)

In the Love of the Lord,

Frank and Mary
Please visit our web site, and refer your family, friends, and others.
http://www.all-creatures.org
-
If we REALLY want God to bless America and the earth, GO VEGAN!
-

Great news! Maybe soon we should see such labels in all meat /diary products,
just like the notice on the cigarrette packages, on the harmful effect of it.
Ling
==================================
Be Veg. Go Green. Save Our Planet!


________________________________
From: Stephen Augustine <jegadoss@...>
To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, December 8, 2009 5:00:11 PM
Subject: [CVA] "'Eat less meat' says carbon footprint burger chain"

Here is an interesting story on a Swedish fast food chain that is actually
trying to discourage its patrons from eating too much meat: http://news.
bbc.co.uk/ 2/hi/in_depth/ 8395287.stm and instead steering them towards
"less-meat" offerings.

-Stephen

Just ordered the "like new" copy on Amazon of "From Dawn to Dusk" for a
Christmas present for a "tell me more person" and also a couple of stocking
stuffers of "Free the Animals" for a some friends of mine who foster for my
rescue. They are not veg but getting more interested. As they were appalled to
learn that many labs use dogs and that there are breeders who raise dogs
specifically to sell to animal experimenters, I thought these would make nice
little gifts from their "foster dogs". Thanks to Michael Budkie's SAEN site and
NAVS data I was able to show them that I was not some weird vegan trying to
convert them to "tofu" ... but that these things actually went on and that there
was nothing humane about animal experimentation at all.

We are trying to get a pound seizure law passed in my state (at this point at
least out of committee). It is amazing of the number of people who have no idea
of what goes on in animal experimentation or that most of it is really not human
life saving medical research. While I like the breadth and depth of "From Dawn
to Dusk", "Free The Animals" is a little less intense, so for me a good choice
in my efforts to convert others to the plight of animals, especially as it
begins with dogs. "Meet Your Meat" and Tribe of Heart productions have worked
well for me too, but it is a little more difficult to carry around a video
player or DVD in my purse. LOL Plus it is so much easier to be just "casually
reading a book, article or pamphlet. One of my favorite "ploys" that often works
for me.

Don't know if anyone has read "For Bea" (by von Kreisler) but a good little
story if you are using a "sidewise" approach to starting a dialogue with people
about animal experimentation. It is not directly about animals in labs but a
true story of a scared little beagle, found by the author, who the vet
identifies as being a dog that has been bred for animal experiments. I often get
comments from people I share that book with of "how can people do that?"  That
is a great jump off point for a discussion about the plight of all animals.
Thanks again for menntioning the FDTD book for others to consider.

Pamm

Oh, so glad you have read the book -- you remember it mentions agent
provocateurs who committed violent fire bombings to blame on the ALF type
groups. The action was immediately suspect, as it made no sense that the animal
groups would start being violent when their non-violent actions had been so
successful, bringing *positive* attention to animal abuse.

But there are infiltrators to every pure group that is trying to right wrongs
that are not yet against the laws, especially when their actions cut into their
pocketbooks. One hunter was even busted firebombing his own car to blame on the
sabateur animal rights groups! (he received 9 months in jail)

There is the creed not to harm any living being and I believe it is followed as
carefully as possible. When trying to change laws or get labs to stop using
vivisection goes on for centuries, then whatever will make them stop abusing the
animals and doesn't hurt anyone further sometimes seems the only solution.

P.S. Sad to say, but the animal/ecoterrorist act is just a postscript to the
Patriot Act, the purpose being to make the profile of domestic terrorists as
wide and vague as possible while the real sadists in Big Pharma labs and Burger
King slaughterhouses get away with murder.

And Free the Animals is a great book too.



--- In christianveg@yahoogroups.com, Pamela Banduric <60sGal@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for remembering to post this book.....you are right, it is great and a
real eye opener. I have given it as gifts when I can find a good copy, as well
as "Free The Animals" (and no, I am not a member of PETA) It is just that it
starts with dogs. I have found that if I can catch someone with the plight of
animals considered as "pets" then I have a much better chance of bringing them
back to hear about the plight of other animals. Both extremely touching and
emotional books about the true plight of animals and those that stand who do
chance personal safety and freedom to save lives.
>
>
> To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
> From: blakmira1@...
> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 22:48:00 -0800
> Subject: Re: [CVA] Activism on behalf of animals being labeled as terrorism
>
> Please read the book "From Dusk til Dawn" by Keith Mann (one of the founders
of the ALF) if you have ambivalent feelings about those who risk their lives and
freedoms directly rescuing animals. Not all actions can be condoned, of course,
but it is a real eye-opener (and 650 pages). You can find it on Amazon I think.
>
> All I know is that one of the few (or only) times Jesus became angry was when
he kicked out those selling animals for sacrifices and slaughter in the temple;
just days later he was crucified. "I will have mercy, and not sacrifice" (Matt.
9:13)"
>

Here is an interesting story on a Swedish fast food chain that is actually
trying to discourage its patrons from eating too much meat:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8395287.stm and instead steering them
towards "less-meat" offerings.

-Stephen


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Pam.

I too disagree with you, but that is ok we are human beings with different
perspectives. I believe one can be emotionally intimidating, there are several
meanings and interpretations of words. I find gorgeous women to be intimidating,
simply because of how they look. Intimidation can be seen through different
observations, in my opinion.

I also have to disagree, because of capitalism many animals are suffering and
are exploited daily. Capitalism is human greed and pure consumerism with a
competitive nature. There are few people that are truly self sufficient, And
most big businesses are affiliated with eateries that brutally kill animals on a
daily basis. I am not blaming, I am just aware that the market is meat. Also,
that is exactly my point it is impossible to stop animal cruelty if the
government continues to allow jobs that murder animals. Cheap meat is capitalism
because cheap meat is big business, If you are a vegan who still shops at the
local grocery store, realistically its not helping the situation...........you
are still giving your money to a place who supports cruel factory meat. Yes, the
demand will go down, but it affects nothing, and that is the beauty of
capitalism. Most countries are or at least a wee bit capitalistic, even
communists are out to make big cash-killing
  whales and other wonderful creatures this world needs. The American
capitalistic free will attitude is to torture weaker beings and make profit,
Period........the government encourages YOU to start your own factory farm and
make a economic profit, because here in America animals are products for the
consumer;). Every society who is participating in currency or trade is
capitalistic, Yes I am aware of individualism and being responsible for your own
actions but the actions of the government does reflect the actions of society or
at least the will of the majority.

Blair Marie.

Thanks for remembering to post this book.....you are right, it is great and a
real eye opener. I have given it as gifts when I can find a good copy, as well
as "Free The Animals" (and no, I am not a member of PETA) It is just that it
starts with dogs. I have found that if I can catch someone with the plight of
animals considered as "pets" then I have a much better chance of bringing them
back to hear about the plight of other animals. Both extremely touching and
emotional books about the true plight of animals and those that stand who do
chance personal safety and freedom to save lives.


To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
From: blakmira1@...
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 22:48:00 -0800
Subject: Re: [CVA] Activism on behalf of animals being labeled as terrorism

Please read the book "From Dusk til Dawn" by Keith Mann (one of the founders of
the ALF) if you have ambivalent feelings about those who risk their lives and
freedoms directly rescuing animals. Not all actions can be condoned, of course,
but it is a real eye-opener (and 650 pages). You can find it on Amazon I think.

All I know is that one of the few (or only) times Jesus became angry was when he
kicked out those selling animals for sacrifices and slaughter in the temple;
just days later he was crucified. "I will have mercy, and not sacrifice" (Matt.
9:13)"

Sorry to disagree with you Blair Marie. I and many, no the majority, of AR
advocates and Activists are not intimidating. We may be, and I am, irritating,
annoying, stubborn, opinionated, outspoken, relentless, nagging, and otherwise
banner carrying messengers, but they are not intimidating. Intimidation implies
that one makes people afraid through threats and or violence. Those might be the
people that you and others label violent activists, but they are not the
majority of AR advocates and activists. If you still believe so, then at the
next Annual AR Conference you attend, you can point them out to me as well as
what it is they do that is intimidating to most people.

As far as capitalism goes, animal exploitation is not the result of capitalism.
It is the result of greed and the human mind set that they have God and or
nature given rights to be the supreme beings on this earth. It has existed long
before capitalism. Capitalism is a economic and political system. Animal
exploitation exists and is rampant in every single economic and political system
that I am aware of that is populated, organized and run by humans. If you can
identify a current economic and political system that is relatively civilized
(for lack of another term), populated and run by humans and does not exploit
animals or humans then I, and likely many others, will gladly relocate. To blame
animal exploitation on capitalism rather than human greed and insensitivity only
makes it harder to end animal suffering.

I will have to stop being lazy and see if I can locate the news article. It
sounds very interesting. Thanks for the info.

Pamm

What you are referring is cultural not necessarily an economic philosophy. 
Philosophy because America is not purely capitalist nor are China and Cuba
purely communistic.

Are animals any better off in a system based on Communism? Socialism?  Facism? 
Dogs are eaten in China.  Animals are eaten in socialist countries of Europe. 
Nazis exeprimented on humans.

Sadly, animals are eaten, used and abused in all countries on the planet.  I see
the problem as complex not capitalism.

sisu
home with the flu so I'll keep it short

Greetings Blair Marie:

Speaking for my own experience in AR, it's my observation that the ethics and
morals of the animal rights community is as varied as those within the Christian
community. We are not one voice, we are many.

Peace,
Veronica

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Please read the book "From Dusk til Dawn" by Keith Mann (one of the founders of
the ALF) if you have ambivalent feelings about those who risk their lives and
freedoms directly rescuing animals. Not all actions can be condoned, of course,
but it is a real eye-opener (and 650 pages). You can find it on Amazon I think.

All I know is that one of the few (or only) times Jesus became angry was when he
kicked out those selling animals for sacrifices and slaughter in the temple;
just days later he was crucified. "I will have mercy, and not sacrifice" (Matt.
9:13)"

--- On Sat, 12/5/09, Blair Marie <spookymama315@...> wrote:


From: Blair Marie <spookymama315@...>
Subject: Re: [CVA] Activism on behalf of animals being labeled as terrorism
To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, December 5, 2009, 3:27 PM

This is not the topic of discussion but I was reading a article on "angry anti
animal rights advocates", I believe animal rights/welfare activists get labeled
as having no compassion for a few reasons- 1. The use of animals in any cruel or
non cruel way benefits a humans need or desire, and creates a control over
another species, anyone who takes a compassionate offense to such a "right" will
automatically cause fury to the Animal user. Most do not sincerely have a
generous regard for human life, so why would they for a animal. 2. Animal
Activists have a way about them that is quite intimidating, some are highly
intelligent and correct for the most part, meat eaters have a hard time
understanding ethical change so they lash out.
3. Animal cruelty has created thousands of jobs and it is essential for
capitalism, unfortunately as long as it creates dollars, societies attitude will
continue to be, why care?. I do not agree with solving problems with violence,
it is cowardly. But anger consumes so many, it is a scary world. In order for
animal cruelty to be solved we must destroy capitalism or take on animal welfare
with a dedication and limit consumers choices. Using animals has become such a
corrupt way of life that any type of cruelty is labeled as part of the job.It is
sad to think The bottom line is, it is better to let the suffering go on rather
then to have it affect you personally, people are too lazy and comfortable to
have a drastic change. In order to make positive sacrifices you must actually
care about the problem, I am being random and emotional. Be well.

Blair marie.

Hi Pamela.

The article Is from a old news paper my animal friendly aunt wanted me to read,
so I have no way to locate it on the internet. In regards to what I said about
AR activists, it was not to be intended in a negative way. I was not referring
to violent AR activists, I was only stating that the ethics and moral views of
AR activists is radical to most of society today. I myself practice advocacy
regarding animal love, I debate occasionally and some take extreme offense,
while debating I tend to take it sometimes to the extreme. Only because I am
very passionate about good will. In some cases people tend to find me
intimidating, I assure you I do not set factory farms on fire:). I find many
people to be intimidating and they are not violent, maybe it is their presence
and what they stand for.

In my last post I was referring to the use of animals in capitalism, I am aware
of everyday animal abuse...............my 4 dogs were all once beaten and
forgotten. My point was that people are now misguided because of capitalism. Why
would you love a dog but then eat a pig? why would you cage a flying creature
while having a bird feeder? People are the product of their environment for the
most part, I was for a long time. It makes no sense what so ever to pick and
choose what domesticated animals you are kind too, Life is life. The government
is OK with animal abuse, they are OK with letting animals live in stressful
environments so society must be OK with purchasing their cruel convenience they
KNOW is dead flesh. The message of capitalism regarding animals is to breed,
keep then kill=final product=commodity. What about pet stores with mass amounts
of rodents, cats, birds, spiders and what not, so some can purchase and then
neglect or abuse? Before the
  pet store there is the cruel capturing and then the factory breeding in which
millions of species are trapped and robbed from their natural habitat.
Capitalism has caused most of these suffering neglected animals to be born.
Another thing is people do not get their "pets" fixed like they should which is
quite irresponsible. I am not implying that there is no positive points to
capitalism, but when it comes to animals- capitalism has failed miserably. Also
capitalism is designed to fulfill our vain needs, glutton desires and to make
one thing MONEY, causing waste and environmental destruction, Capitalism is the
scape goat for allowing animal suffering to continue. What would we do without
fur, leather and pretty hygiene products that are tested on animals? The
universal point is to kill animals for food and luxuries, not Jesus and his
compassion.

It is sacrificial in my opinion to change your eating habits. people enjoy the
taste of meat, there is a huge demand for it and it is ALL AROUND. A duty is a
sacrifice depending on the situation. Jesus sacrificed his flesh for our sins,
his duty was to prove salvation.

Thanks for your input Pam!

God Bless! -Blair Marie.

Next time someone asks you if your vegetables are Christian vegetables, you
can tell him/her that yes, you are very ecumenical about the vegetables you
eat.  J

Heidi



From: christianveg@yahoogroups.com [mailto:christianveg@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of lcoyotes
Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2009 10:45 PM
To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CVA] Re: "true Christianity"





I don't engage in debate well either! I often feel very uncomfortable around
other people because I don't know how to deal with their insensitive
comments and actions. Upon describing myself as a Christian vegetarian, a
fellow Christian asked me not long ago if that means I only eat Christian
vegetables. Ha, ha, very funny.

It's nice to know there are other introverts out there who share our views!
Antidepressants are great too!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't believe you are being "random and emotional" Blair. Unfortunately the
bottom line is the dollar. The more spent on the industry the more the suffering
will continue. We must all speak with our pocketbooks...slow, but more effective
than violence.
 
Paris Harvey~Coordinator~Christian Vegetarian Association
408.355.0436 (PST) ~  www.all-creatures.org/cva 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for this link!

--- In christianveg@yahoogroups.com, jbsttbusrider71@... wrote:
>
> sent by jonathan st.thomas
>
> Google Web Alert for: "vegan websites"
>
> Credible Vegan Websites
> List of vegan websites that are dietitian reviewed and approved. Get
everything you need to know about become vegan to confidently plan meals for you
and ...
> at? http://www.personal-nutrition-guide.com/vegan-websites.html ? ?
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I don't engage in debate well either!  I often feel very uncomfortable around
other people because I don't know how to deal with their insensitive comments
and actions.  Upon describing myself as a Christian vegetarian, a fellow
Christian asked me not long ago if that means I only eat Christian vegetables. 
Ha, ha, very funny.

It's nice to know there are other introverts out there who share our views! 
Antidepressants are great too!

Dear Friends:

Our sermon offering for today is:
The Hypocrisy of Christmas "Peace on Earth"
http://www.all-creatures.org/sermons98/s20091206.html
-
If you love animals, please read this message and pass it on.

In the Love of the Lord,

Frank and Mary
Please visit our web site, and refer your family, friends, and others.
http://www.all-creatures.org
-
If we REALLY want God to bless America and the earth, GO VEGAN!
-

Hi Blair Marie

If you still have that article, would you be able to provide the citation?  I
would love to read it and I think others might also. You present some good
points, however I do not agree with several of them.

It may be true that some AR activists are intimidating, just as "some" of any
group may be intimidating, but I do not agree that AR activists as a whole are
intimidating. They may be outspoken and those who do not care or refuse to care
about animals do not like that, but that is certainly not intimidation. You
would be hard pressed to find any one in an IDA, MFA, COK, Farm Sanctuary,
KinShip Circle, or many other AR activist groups "activisms" behaving in a way
that is intimidating. Except of course as interpreted or claimed by the people
who support and want to use the AETA legislation to inhibit and intimidate AR
activists in the hopes of stopping them. Federal prison, now that is pretty
intimidating. To say that AR activists have a "way about them" that is
intimidating is, I believe, a disservice to all of us who are such activists.
Being an activist does not mean blowing up buildings, or robbing grave yards, as
Lee Hall likes to point out. Instead it implies that a person is active in a
particular pursuit. I, as well as many of the activists I know, may be outspoken
and stand our ground, but in no way are our activities intimidating or meant to
be. If that were so we would all carry side arms, shovels, fire bombs and throw
rocks. Please do not confuse the vast majority of AR activists with the few
misthought and misguided advocates of violence.

The statement that in order for animal cruelty to be solved capitalism must be
destroyed, implies that animal cruelty only exists in societies that are based
on capitalism. That would mean that such cruelties were not found in any non
capitalistic society. It also implies that there are no capitalists operating a
successful business that did not engage in animal cruelty. Neither of these are
correct statements by any stretch of the imagination or twisting of the facts.
While there may be links between desire for profit and animal cruelty, there is
not a cause effect relationship. Otherwise we would not see the reprehensible
and unbelievable cruelty to sentient creatures that we see that have no economic
ties at all. A month or so ago, I held a young dog in my arms that had been
starved, beaten, choked and then had Lye (Drano) poured on her. She died, still
trying to wag her tail, while we waited for a vet tech to rush to us. Her crime,
she wet on the floor. I am sure that had nothing to do with capitalism. Animal
cruelty has many causes, and you have cited a number of them, but it is
definitely not the result of capitalism per se. In my opinion, it is the
acceptance and erroneous belief that as humans, God gave us the right to do what
ever we wanted with animals, as long as it suited our needs, our desires, our
pleasures, and our greed. Those are not the result of capitalism.

In a nutshell, I believe your last statement is the truest and the crux of the
matter, people are too comfortable, they resist change, and you are right, one
must truly care in order to make any change. It it is not a sacrifice to do so,
it is our duty, and our commandment. When Christ said "love one another" I do
not believe he meant just humans to the exclusion of all other creatures.

Thanks for sharing to information about the angry anti animal rights advocates.
I hope you have the citation, just to save my lazy self from an internet search.
:)

Pamm


To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
From: spookymama315@...
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 15:27:19 -0800
Subject: Re: [CVA] Activism on behalf of animals being labeled as terrorism

This is not the topic of discussion but I was reading a article on "angry anti
animal rights advocates", I believe animal rights/welfare activists get labeled
as having no compassion for a few reasons- 1. The use of animals in any cruel or
non cruel way benefits a humans need or desire, and creates a control over
another species, anyone who takes a compassionate offense to such a "right" will
automatically cause fury to the Animal user. Most do not sincerely have a
generous regard for human life, so why would they for a animal. 2. Animal
Activists have a way about them that is quite intimidating, some are highly
intelligent and correct for the most part, meat eaters have a hard time
understanding ethical change so they lash out.
3. Animal cruelty has created thousands of jobs and it is essential for
capitalism, unfortunately as long as it creates dollars, societies attitude will
continue to be, why care?. I do not agree with solving problems with violence,
it is cowardly. But anger consumes so many, it is a scary world. In order for
animal cruelty to be solved we must destroy capitalism or take on animal welfare
with a dedication and limit consumers choices. Using animals has become such a
corrupt way of life that any type of cruelty is labeled as part of the job.It is
sad to think The bottom line is, it is better to let the suffering go on rather
then to have it affect you personally, people are too lazy and comfortable to
have a drastic change. In order to make positive sacrifices you must actually
care about the problem, I am being random and emotional. Be well.

Blair marie.

This is not the topic of discussion but I was reading a article on "angry anti
animal rights advocates", I believe animal rights/welfare activists get labeled
as having no compassion for a few reasons- 1. The use of animals in any cruel or
non cruel way benefits a humans need or desire, and creates a control over
another species, anyone who takes a compassionate offense to such a "right" will
automatically cause fury to the Animal user. Most do not sincerely have a
generous regard for human life, so why would they for a animal. 2. Animal
Activists have a way about them that is quite intimidating, some are highly
intelligent and correct for the most part, meat eaters have a hard time
understanding ethical change so they lash out.
3. Animal cruelty has created thousands of jobs and it is essential for
capitalism, unfortunately as long as it creates dollars, societies attitude will
continue to be, why care?.  I do not agree with solving problems with violence,
it is cowardly. But anger consumes so many, it is a scary world. In order for
animal cruelty to be solved we must destroy capitalism or take on animal welfare
with a dedication and limit consumers choices. Using animals has become such a
corrupt way of life that any type of cruelty is labeled as part of the job.It is
sad to think The bottom line is, it is better to let the suffering go on rather
then to have it affect you personally, people are too lazy and comfortable to
have a drastic change. In order to make positive sacrifices you must actually
care about the problem, I am being random and emotional. Be well.

Blair marie.




________________________________
From: Cathy B. <thebramble@...>
To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, December 4, 2009 9:17:11 PM
Subject: Re: [CVA] Activism on behalf of animals being labeled as terrorism


There is money grubbing and other problems... however I don't regard grave
robbing and the threatening of vivisectors' family members (and the schools
the children attend) as acceptable forms of activism.  I am a pacifist (as
are most of the people we admire most - Jesus, Ghandi, Martin Luther King,
etc), I do not think that violence can solve the problem of violence.

Here in Utah we have a lot of this type of militancy - and mink releases
every year... they are not a pretty sight.  Most of the mink are
re-captured, many are hit by cars.  The net result of all these releases is
that the government comes down on lawful protest (who else will they
punish?  often they don't find the real culprits).

For what it's worth, pro-life activists are being arrested for peaceful
protests and labeled as "terrorists" too (though not to the same degree)...
but it's coming.  I think it's a deeper problem than the ag industry and
their money, this is how free nations lose their freedom across the board.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There is money grubbing and other problems... however I don't regard grave
robbing and the threatening of vivisectors' family members (and the schools
the children attend) as acceptable forms of activism.  I am a pacifist (as
are most of the people we admire most - Jesus, Ghandi, Martin Luther King,
etc), I do not think that violence can solve the problem of violence.

Here in Utah we have a lot of this type of militancy - and mink releases
every year... they are not a pretty sight.  Most of the mink are
re-captured, many are hit by cars.  The net result of all these releases is
that the government comes down on lawful protest (who else will they
punish?  often they don't find the real culprits).

For what it's worth, pro-life activists are being arrested for peaceful
protests and labeled as "terrorists" too (though not to the same degree)...
but it's coming.  I think it's a deeper problem than the ag industry and
their money, this is how free nations lose their freedom across the board.

Hi Veronica

A lady after my own heart. The comment about the American Idol contestants is
just perfect. It is so difficult to not become jaded and in fact, almost lose
hope. Like you, I too am surprised at the lack of awareness. Even more
surprising to me are those that once informed still chose, and I do believe it
is a choice, to not do anything. The excuses are as many as there are stars in
the sky. It may be that I am more jaded with each passing year, but I no longer
see the "numbers", a least not in activism. I hear the voices but when it comes
to action, I do not see that. Perhaps it is because I have too great of
expectations, and too grandiose of dreams, but as the poet Robert Browning wrote
" . . . a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a Heaven for? Maybe we
should try your American Idol approach to bring the numbers out, but then those
would likely not be people willing to commit and take up the cause.

It is those on this site as well as others, and fellow activists and the fellow
animal rescuers that keep so many of us committed to this activism and work,
give us hope, comfort, and remind us that no matter what others say, that what
we strive and work towards is not an "impossible dream" but is indeed a
"reachable star". Blessings to all of you who keep that light burning and the
dream alive.

Pamm

Please sent this instead....thanks.

Hey there Pamm:

My meaning in stating that it was not new information was that it is not new to
us who are active within animal advocacy legislation in particular. Your so
right about assuming people know, and after fifteen years in animal,
environmental & toxic ingredients legislation I no longer assume people know
what's going on, but my feeling is, we SHOULD all know what's going on. Yes,
they have the deep pockets, but we have the numbers. When we are engaged,
informed and active we make a difference. I'm still always astonished, though
not surprised, when folks don't know about the laws their government institutes
(or strategically choose not to regulate) even in regard to basic rights
regarding their food, air/water quality, ingredients in products used on their
children.  And in fact, all of these issues are inextricably tied to animal
issues. In truth, I've grown a bit jaded by that fact.   A few weeks ago, during
a legislative hearing I couldn't help but wonder if we might not have 'packed
the statehouse'  had we announced there would be a free performance by American
Idol contestants.

Best regards not only to my Christian Veg sisters and brothers on CVA, but also
to my fellow activists. Sometimes I forget your out their and am comforted by
your presence here.

Peace,
Veronica


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Veronica, not sure why you sent this to me. No previous message attached.
 
Paris Harvey~Coordinator~Christian Vegetarian Association
408.355.0436 (PST) ~  www.all-creatures.org/cva 




________________________________
From: Veronica <artsmart@...>
To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, December 3, 2009 6:32:26 AM
Subject: [CVA] Re: Activism on behalf of animals being labeled as terrorism

 
This is not new information. Here in Massachusetts we had a conference regarding
the terrorist act, which included a phone conference with Dennis Kucinich, about
this issue several years ago when we first became aware of the fact that was
being 'sandwiched' into a bill. We in animal advocacy saw it for what it was; a
transparent and strategic maneuver on the part of companies (pharmaceutical and
others) which exploit animals. This was the perfect way for them to protect
their interests and labs.

Veronica

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey there Pamm:

My meaning in stating that it was not new information was that it is not new to
us who are active within animal advocacy legislation in particular. Your so
right about assuming people know, and after fifteen years in animal,
environmental & toxic ingredients legislation I no longer assume people know
what's going on, but my feeling is, we SHOULD all know what's going on. Yes,
they have the deep pockets, but we have the numbers. When we are engaged,
informed and active we make a difference. I'm still always astonished, though
not surprised  when folks don't know about the laws there government institutes
(or strategically choose not to regulate) even in regard to basic rights
regarding there food, air/water quality, ingredients in products used on their
children.  And in fact, all of these issues are inextricably tied to animal
issues. In truth, I've grown a bit jaded by that fact.   A few weeks ago, during
a legislative hearing I couldn't help but wonder if we might not have 'packed
the statehouse'  had we announced there would be a free performance by American
Idol contestants.

Best regards not only to my Christian Veg sisters and brothers on CVA, but also
to my fellow activists. Sometimes I forget your out there and am comforted by
your presence here.

Peace,
Veronica


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I use to have the exact numbers of who voted for and who voted against, but lost
it when my last computer was infected with a "worm virus" and I confess that at
the moment I am too lazy to go into congressional archives to search for them.
While I cannot tell you who might have joined Dennis in voting against this, I
can tell you that this was "midnighted" (my term) throught both the Hosue and
the Senate and for whatever reasons there were very, very few present for the
vote. It was also set up as a vote, no discussion, no pros and cons, no
speeches, just a FOR or AGIANST vote.

Pamm


To: christianveg@yahoogroups.com
From: graciafay@...
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 16:41:30 -0800
Subject: Re: [CVA] Re: Activism on behalf of animals being labeled as terrorism

It amazed me when I learned that Dennis Kucinich was the ONLY congressperson
who voted against the AETA. I suppose there were others who might have
opposed it but who were unavoidably absent, but he has stood alone on other
issues. Sometimes I wonder if he is the only incorruptible person in
Congress.

Gracia Fay Ellwood

Hi Veronica

I think many of us know that this is not new information, but I also believe
that there are many people that this is new to them. Not only on this site, but
to people in the general public. Too often, for those of us in animal advocacy,
we have tendency to think that everybody knows. It has been my experience that
most people do not know about many of the animal issues. And as you know, the
animal exploiters do a great job, with huge expenditures, of hiding what they
do, sugar coating it, or distorting the facts. Hence, I think it is not only a
good idea, but also a mandate, for those who do advocate and act for animals to
carry the message and expose the exploiters, whenever and wherever we can.

Pamm