Hi all!

I am curious if any of you have an opinion about miracles and special
powers.

Do you believe meditation gives powers to someone?

Do you believe as, TM practitioners do, that people meditating together
send off good energy that helps further peace in the world?

What do think when someone claims that some teacher has super-human
powers?

Has anyone read Richard Bach's "Illusions"?

I wonder if special powers are really illusions or delusions.  Did the
miracles of Jesus really happen?  Did the miracles of Buddha really
happen?( I can list some of these if memory serves me right)  Are there
people now performing miracles?

I think one or two of you took the "Course in Miracles".  Would that
relate to this topic?

This reminds me of a story of a monk long ago in China who was a very
strong meditator and capable of great concentration.   He once sent a
letter to have a coat sent to him as winter had just begun.  He recieved
a note that the coat was on its way to him, but a great deal of time
went by and he did not recieve it.  He decided to learn the art of
divination and studied hard to develop the power to find out where the
coat was.  After much effort his skills were such that he found the
coat, and journeyed to that place where it was he knew it would be.  He
immediately gave up the art of divination as he saw that he could easily
abuse it and become attached to it.


Hope the weather is improving where you are.

PEACE!
-John

John,

Thanks for the book referral.  I will get it and read it.  I have built up a
good collection of books, but I don't have that one.

It is great that you can work and help others at the same time.  My business
is purely capitalism.  Advertising.  It is a good way to make a living, but
not very good spiritually.

I appreciate your emails, and I hope we can continue through this list or
directly to communicate.

Fritz

On Sun, 18 Apr 1999 21:13:43 -0500, Randall Frietzsche wrote:

> Hello.
> greetings fritz,saw your posting and wanted to encourage you to continue
your buddhist practice.even though the situation seems to be upsetting, take
heart that with your continued practice the goodness of your heart will in
time  change the unpleasantness of the situation.
peace,                                                         raymond
> Been a while since I saw any posts to the list.  I wanted to make sure =
> everyone is still out there. =20
>
> I wanted to ask others on the list how they continue to practice.  My =
> situation is that I live in an area of the country where Buddhism is not
=
> real apparent.  No temples, no books at the local bookstore, etc.  Also,
=
> none of my family are Buddhists.  In fact, my wife is a strong =
> Christian, and thinks I am a "pagan" because I believe the way I do.  =
> This is a joke in my house.  My mother-in-law is the poster child for =
> hypocritical better-than-you christians.  I have trouble maintaining my =
> spirituality at home and on the road.  I would love some feedback on =
> this issue for me.  I take prayer beads, books, etc. with me on the =
> road.  But without real spiritual guidance, I find myself lacking that =
> spirituality that I have had in the past.
>
> Fritz





_______________________________________________________
Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/

Fritz,
You might enjoy a book called, "Chop Wood, Carry Water".  It is about
working with the consideration of Buddhist ideals.

As for myself I am lucky to be able to do service-learning work.  It is
kind of like Ameri-corps.  For a year I am supported while I work as a
volunteer.
My plan in the future is to be a teacher and work with non-profits.  I
understand the necessity of supporting your family, but check out that
book and see if it has some ideas for you.

-John

Randall Frietzsche wrote:

> John, Thank you for your comments.  They are greatly appreciated. I
> believe you are correct, and I do some of those things.  But of
> course, I have had a hard time separating the simple way from the
> complex way of free enterprise, raising a family, materialism,
> etc. What is your occupation? Fritz

John,

Thank you for your comments.  They are greatly appreciated.

I believe you are correct, and I do some of those things.  But of course, I have
had a hard time separating the simple way from the complex way of free
enterprise, raising a family, materialism, etc.

What is your occupation?

Fritz

[This message contained attachments]

I certainly don't envy your situation Fritz.  I certainly think it would
probably be useful to regularly do meditation.  Even ten minutes a day
is useful, though I would recommend 20-50 minutes at a time.  It is a
great way to start or end your day.
Other than that I could suggest two other ways to practice.  Read a lot
of books about Buddhism and keep a journal or write letters to teachers
about what you have read.  Or there are Buddhist pen pals on the web at
sites like Tricycle's.
Also you could "live Buddhism" by volunteering in your community.
The most helpful teaching to me in this type of situation is that of the
great monk Hui-neng, who taught that one should not meditate just on the
cushion, but constantly.  That is being very aware and deliberate in any
action or speech.

Is that helpful?

PEACE!-John

Randall Frietzsche wrote:

> Hello. Been a while since I saw any posts to the list.  I wanted to
> make sure everyone is still out there. I wanted to ask others on the
> list how they continue to practice.  My situation is that I live in an
> area of the country where Buddhism is not real apparent.  No temples,
> no books at the local bookstore, etc.  Also, none of my family are
> Buddhists.  In fact, my wife is a strong Christian, and thinks I am a
> "pagan" because I believe the way I do.  This is a joke in my house.
> My mother-in-law is the poster child for hypocritical better-than-you
> christians.  I have trouble maintaining my spirituality at home and on
> the road.  I would love some feedback on this issue for me.  I take
> prayer beads, books, etc. with me on the road.  But without real
> spiritual guidance, I find myself lacking that spirituality that I
> have had in the past. Fritz

Hello.

Been a while since I saw any posts to the list.  I wanted to make sure everyone
is still out there.

I wanted to ask others on the list how they continue to practice.  My situation
is that I live in an area of the country where Buddhism is not real apparent. 
No temples, no books at the local bookstore, etc.  Also, none of my family are
Buddhists.  In fact, my wife is a strong Christian, and thinks I am a "pagan"
because I believe the way I do.  This is a joke in my house.  My mother-in-law
is the poster child for hypocritical better-than-you christians.  I have trouble
maintaining my spirituality at home and on the road.  I would love some feedback
on this issue for me.  I take prayer beads, books, etc. with me on the road. 
But without real spiritual guidance, I find myself lacking that spirituality
that I have had in the past.

Fritz

Something for the heart:
       On a cold day in 1942, inside a Nazi concentration camp, a lone,
young boy looks beyond the barbed wire and sees a young girl pass by.  She
too, is moved by his presence.  In an effort to give expression to her
feelings, she throws a red apple over the fence -- a sign of life, hope,
and love.  The young boy bends over and picks up the apple.  A ray of light
has pierced his darkness.  The following day, thinking he is crazy for even
entertaining the notion of seeing this young girl again, he looks out
beyond the fence, hoping.  On the other side of the barbed wire, the young
girl yearns to see again this tragic figure who moved her so.  She comes
prepared with apple in hand.
      Despite another day of wintry blizzards and chilling air, two hearts
are warmed once again as the apple passes over the barbed wire.  The scene
is repeated for several days.
     The two young spirits on opposite sides of the fence look forward to
seeing each other, if only for a moment and if only to exchange a few
words.  The interaction is always accompanied by an exchange of
inexplicably heartening feelings.
      At the last of these momentary meetings, the young boy greets his
sweet friend with a frown and says, "Tomorrow, don't bring me an apple, I
will not be here.  They are sending me to another camp."  The young boy
walks away, too heartbroken to look back.
       From that day forward, the calming image of the sweet girl would
appear to him in moments of anguish.  Her eyes, her words, her
thoughtfulness, her red apple, all were a recurring vision that would break
his night time sweats. His family died in the war.  The life he had known
had all but vanished, but this one memory remained alive and gave him hope.
      In 1957 in the United States, two adults, both immigrants, are set up
on a blind date.  "And where were you during the war?" inquires the woman.
"I was in a concentration camp in Germany," the man replies.
      "I remember I used to throw apples over the fence to a boy who was in
a concentration camp," she recalls.
      With a feeling of shock, the man speaks.  "And did that boy say to you
one day, "Don't bring an apple anymore because I am being sent to another
camp?'"
      "Why, yes," she responds, "but how could you possibly know that?"
      He looks into her eyes and says, "I was that young boy."
      There is a brief silence, and then he continues, "I was separated from
you then, and I don't ever want to be without you again.  Will you marry
me?"
     They embrace one another as she says, "Yes."
     On Valentine's Day, 1996, on national telecast of the Oprah Winfrey
show, this same man affirmed his enduring love to his wife of forty years.
     "You fed me in the concentration camp," he said, "you fed me throughout
all these years; now, I remain hungry if only for your love."

Lesson:  The darkest moments of one's life may carry the seeds of the
brightest tomorrow.

The story goes that some time ago, a man punished his 3-year-old daughter for 
wasting a roll of gold wrapping paper. Money was tight and he became infuriated
when the child tried to decorate a box to put under the Christmas tree.
Nevertheless, the little girl brought the gift to her father the next morning
and said, "This is for you, Daddy." He was embarrassed by his earlier
overreaction, but his anger flared again when he found the box was empty. He
yelled at her, "Don't you know that when you give someone a present, there's
supposed to be something inside it?" The little girl looked up at him with tears
in her eyes and said, "Oh,
Daddy, it is not empty. I blew kisses into the box. All for you, Daddy." The
father was crushed. He put his arms around his little girl and he begged for her
forgiveness. It is told that the man kept that gold box by his bed for years and
whenever he was discouraged, he would take out an imaginary kiss and remember
the love of the child who had put it there. In a very real sense, each of us as
humans have been given a gold container filled with unconditional love and
kisses from our children, friends, family or God. There is no more precious
possession anyone could hold.

"There can be no happiness if the things we believe in are different from the
things we do."

Angels know that honesty, loyalty, and trust are the building blocks to all good
relationships.

Angels come from all places....in all shapes, sizes and colors.

Yay! Two more books to add to the pile of unread books that I already
have! ;)

Seriously though. A couple of books caught my eye that I just had to
pick up. Both address issues that are relevant to this list. Though I'm
more of a Zennie than Tibetan, I got "The Good Heart" by HH The Dalai
Lama. Besides Living Buddha, Living Christ, it's the only other
substantive book I could find that addresses Christianity from a
Buddhist prespective. Anyone here read it? If so, what'd you think?

The second one looks *really* interesting & I'm really excited about
reading it. It's "The Complete Gospels", edited by Robert J. Miller.
There are two things about it that made it irresistable to me:

1. It's a collection of the Synoptic *and* Gnostic Gospels. It's got the
obligatory Gospel of Thomas, but it also has a whole slew of others. I
started reading some of the infancy Gospels. Apparently, Jesus wasn't
too nice as a kid. Made a couple of kids die, turned a few people blind,
sassed back at Joseph since he wasn't his "real" dad. Kind of funny
actually. ;)

2. *All* of the Gospels are freshly translated from the original
manuscripts. They were translated by a group of Theology professors at
various universities and the intent was to reach a consensus of "true"
translation free of official church dogmas. So these should be about as
"straight from the horse's mouth" as they come.

In just browsing the Gospel of Thomas, I'm amazed at how Zen it is. This
is gonna be fun!

Peace!

---
Ted

Ted,

You got it, man.  You said everything I feel, but much more eloquently.  My
wife is a Jehovah's Witness, and she calls me, "jokingly," a pagan.  I feel
uncomfortable sometimes expressing my need to practice my faith as it is.
Luckily, I travel with my work, and I have lately been able to find a few
minutes here and there to practice.  But overall, my life is on a train
moving 100 mph all the time.  I used to be able to stop things, center
myself, find the patience, compassion, and be at peace.  I have searched for
a place to join others in practice, but living in Southern Indiana,
Louisville area, go figure.  There aren't too many Buddhists in this neck of
the woods, at least none I've seen.  I guess what I have tried to do is find
a place where I don't differentiate between the Christian feelings and the
Buddhist.  Buddhism means a lot to me.  It has done wonders for my life.
How do you join the two and live a Buddhist life in a Christian world?

Fritz

Fritz
*****************
"Live each day as if a fire were raging in your hair."
----- Original Message -----
From: <christian-buddhist@onelist.com>
To: <Ronin>
Sent: Monday, April 05, 1999 22:33 PM
Subject: [christian-buddhist] Living Buddha, Living Christ:


>
> From: "Ted D. Biggs" <tbiggs@...>
>
> OK, just read the Forward, Intro & Chapter 1. Here are some random
thoughts:
>
> The big theme that I see here is in letting go of the silly (IMNSHO)
> notion that there is only one *true* religion. This is a prime of
> example of ego-clinging that our Buddhist practice helps us to avoid.
> The ego holds tightly to it's biases and prejudices, the "me/us" vs.
> "them" duality. What better way to support it all than by insisting that
> it is by God's decree?
>
> Some random quotes:
>
> Forward
> -------
>
> "We Christians have no monopoly on the Holy Spirit: 'All those who are
> led by the Spirit of God are [daughters and] sons of God.'(Romans 8:14)"
>
> "'Reality is free from all notions...'"
>
> Intro
> -----
>
> "'The idea behind the [Pope's] statement, however, is the notion that
> Christianity provides the only way to salvation and all other religious
> traditions are of no use. This attitude excludes dialogue and fosters
> religious intolerance and discrimination. It does not help.'"
>
> Quoting the Gospel of Thomas "Jesus said, 'If you bring forth what is
> within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring
> forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy
> you.'" In other words, expose your ego-self and transcend it, lest it
> continue to dominate and eventually destroy your spirit.
>
> Ch. 1
> -----
>
> "People kill and are killed because they cling too tightly to their own
> beliefs and ideologies...'Do not think the knowledge you possess is
> changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow-minded and bound to
> present views. Learn and practice nonattachment from views in order to
> be open to receive others' viewpoints'"
>
> "If we think we monopolize the truth and we still organize a dialogue,
> it is not authentic. We have to believe that by engaging in dialogue
> with the other person, we have the possibility of making a change within
> ourselves... Dialogue must be practiced on the basis of 'non-self'."
>
> "Our capacity to make peace with another person and withthe world
> depends very much on our capacity to make peace with ourselves."
>
> "We have different roots, traditions, and ways of seeing, but we share
> the common qualities of love, understanding, and acceptance."
>
> Peace!
>
> ---
> Ted
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> If you like orange and blue, then you will love our new web site!
> http://www.onelist.com
> Onelist: Fostering connections and information exchange
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Open Your Mind!
> PEACE!
>

OK, just read the Forward, Intro & Chapter 1. Here are some random thoughts:

The big theme that I see here is in letting go of the silly (IMNSHO)
notion that there is only one *true* religion. This is a prime of
example of ego-clinging that our Buddhist practice helps us to avoid.
The ego holds tightly to it's biases and prejudices, the "me/us" vs.
"them" duality. What better way to support it all than by insisting that
it is by God's decree?

Some random quotes:

Forward
-------

"We Christians have no monopoly on the Holy Spirit: 'All those who are
led by the Spirit of God are [daughters and] sons of God.'(Romans 8:14)"

"'Reality is free from all notions...'"

Intro
-----

"'The idea behind the [Pope's] statement, however, is the notion that
Christianity provides the only way to salvation and all other religious
traditions are of no use. This attitude excludes dialogue and fosters
religious intolerance and discrimination. It does not help.'"

Quoting the Gospel of Thomas "Jesus said, 'If you bring forth what is
within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring
forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy
you.'" In other words, expose your ego-self and transcend it, lest it
continue to dominate and eventually destroy your spirit.

Ch. 1
-----

"People kill and are killed because they cling too tightly to their own
beliefs and ideologies...'Do not think the knowledge you possess is
changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow-minded and bound to
present views. Learn and practice nonattachment from views in order to
be open to receive others' viewpoints'"

"If we think we monopolize the truth and we still organize a dialogue,
it is not authentic. We have to believe that by engaging in dialogue
with the other person, we have the possibility of making a change within
ourselves... Dialogue must be practiced on the basis of 'non-self'."

"Our capacity to make peace with another person and withthe world
depends very much on our capacity to make peace with ourselves."

"We have different roots, traditions, and ways of seeing, but we share
the common qualities of love, understanding, and acceptance."

Peace!

---
Ted

Randall Frietzsche wrote:

> present, and forget the past and future.  I feel that prayer is a form of
> meditation, and meditation is a prayer.

I actually made it to Easter Mass. Will miracles never cease! ;)

Anyway, I tried something a little different this time around: I went
into zazen during the prayer sessions (not lotus-style obviously!). It
was kind of interesting, you begin to realize that your aren't alone,
but something like a cell in a larger organism. You aren't taking part
in the Mass, you *are* the Mass.

> Often, I hope I am not wrong, and go to Hell for believing in another faith
> other than Christianity.

This is one of Ted's soapbox topics, but I'll try to keep it simple. I
personally think that God was smart enough to realize different people
have different needs, and sent several messengers out to preach messages
which address those needs.

As arrogant as it sounds, some people need to think simplisticly in
terms of reward and punishment. Thus, angry, vengeful God who rewards
"good" behavior with Heaven and punishes "bad" behavior with Hell. You
see this in the more fundamentalistic traditions of Judaism, Islam and
Christianity. Other people are more reflective and need a tradition
which is more reflective & introspective, understanding that through
self-improvement, one can better serve others. Thus, the Buddhist,
Christian mystic & Sufi traditions. No God, IMHO, that would beget such
a diverse creation as ours would turn around & insist upon a
"one-size-fits-all" religion any more than he would expect us to all
wear the same size shoe despite having different size feet.

Peace!

---
Ted

Hello and thank you for your input to our list.  It is so nice to meet
people who believe similarly to myself.  I thought I was unique, but happily
I am not.

I feel the same way as you do.  In Buddhism, I find a way to work on my
faults, and bring myself closer to the ancient wisdom and peace that I have
briefly experienced.  In Christianity, I feel that connection with God that
I never could going to a secular Church.

In Buddhism, I can release myself from the burdens of attachment, fear of
death, and worry about what the future will bring.  I can settle in the
present, and forget the past and future.  I feel that prayer is a form of
meditation, and meditation is a prayer.  I feel that both Jesus and Buddha
were prophets.  Both were men of great compassion.  Both were men to model
ourselves after.  But to be a Christian exclusively would just not fit the
way I believe.

Often, I hope I am not wrong, and go to Hell for believing in another faith
other than Christianity.  Then the Buddhist in me says that karma is
working, and I will be reborn again to learn a little more.

Fritz
*****************
"Live each day as if a fire were raging in your hair."
----- Original Message -----
From: <christian-buddhist@onelist.com>
To: <Ronin>
Sent: Monday, April 05, 1999 21:20 PM
Subject: [christian-buddhist] Intro


>
> From: mscott@...
>
> Hello everyone!
>
>
>
> I am very glad to have found this list.  I hope to be able to participate
in many discussions on combining both Christianity and Buddhism.  As
requested here is my intro:
>
>
>
> Background:  I was raised as an Epsicopalian from birth.  I tried to rebel
against going to church as a kid but was dragged (sometimes kicking and
screaming) to church until I graduated high school.  I think I didn't want
to go because I didn't really "feel" the service--ie. I couldn't relate with
the way the service was put to me.
>
>
>
> History:  I have drifted since high school and visited various churches
and various denominations.  The only one that I felt close to was the
Unitarian Universalist Church.  But I still didn't find that my needs were
being met.  So I had been looking at Buddhism on a casual basis by getting
some reading materials.  My birth mother whom I just reunited with last year
introduced me to her Buddhist practice.
>
>
>
> Preference:  I think that I would prefer to be categorized as a
Christian/Buddhist.  I feel that both are important in my life and I don't
want to give up either.
>
>
>
> Practice:  My birth mother follows Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism through
the group of SGI.  This consists of chanting sections of the Lotus Sutra and
Nam-Myo-Renge-Kyo twice a day.  I am very new to chanting and the practice
and at times it feels very foreign to the way I was brought up. Kind of
Western vs. Eastern cultures.
>
>
>
> Work:  I am a paralegal in the stressful area of family law.
>
>
>
> Again it is nice to be able to chat with people that are following both
Christianity and Buddhism and how both can be incorporated together.
>
>
>
> Mariann
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> We have a new web site!
> http://www.onelist.com
> Onelist: The leading provider of free email community services
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Open Your Mind!
> PEACE!
>

Hello everyone!

I am very glad to have found this list.  I hope to be able to participate in
many discussions on combining both Christianity and Buddhism.  As requested here
is my intro:

Background:  I was raised as an Epsicopalian from birth.  I tried to rebel
against going to church as a kid but was dragged (sometimes kicking and
screaming) to church until I graduated high school.  I think I didn't want to go
because I didn't really "feel" the service--ie. I couldn't relate with the way
the service was put to me.

History:  I have drifted since high school and visited various churches and
various denominations.  The only one that I felt close to was the Unitarian
Universalist Church.  But I still didn't find that my needs were being met.  So
I had been looking at Buddhism on a casual basis by getting some reading
materials.  My birth mother whom I just reunited with last year introduced me to
her Buddhist practice.

Preference:  I think that I would prefer to be categorized as a
Christian/Buddhist.  I feel that both are important in my life and I don't want
to give up either.

Practice:  My birth mother follows Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism through the
group of SGI.  This consists of chanting sections of the Lotus Sutra and
Nam-Myo-Renge-Kyo twice a day.  I am very new to chanting and the practice and
at times it feels very foreign to the way I was brought up. Kind of Western vs.
Eastern cultures.

Work:  I am a paralegal in the stressful area of family law.

Again it is nice to be able to chat with people that are following both
Christianity and Buddhism and how both can be incorporated together.

Mariann

EVERYBODY KNOWS...

You can't be all things to all people.
You can't do all things at once.
You can't do all things equally well.
You can't do all things better than everyone else.
Your humanity is showing just like everyone else's.

SO...
You have to find out who you are, and be that.
You have to decide what comes first, and do that.
You have to discover your strengths, and use them.
You have to learn not to compete with others,
Because no one else is in the contest of *being you*.

THEN...
You will have learned to accept your own uniqueness.
You will have learned to set priorities and make decisions.
You will have learned to live with your limitations.
You will have learned to give yourself the respect that is due,
And you'll be a most vital mortal.

DARE TO BELIEVE...
That you are a wonderful, unique person.
That you are a once-in-all-history event.
That it's more than a right, it's your duty, to be who you are.
That life is not a problem to solve, but a gift to cherish.
And you'll be able to stay one up on what used to get you down.


Fritz
*****************
"Live each day as if a fire were raging in your hair."

Hello.  I would like to ask the members of the list a question.  I believe that
you can be a Buddhist and a Christian.  I am interested in hearing arguments for
this position.

Thanks
Fritz
*****************
"Live each day as if a fire were raging in your hair."

Right on Ted!

You mentioned some great books.  I enjoyed "Living Buddha, Living Christ"
recently, and "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" was one of the first books I read
on Buddhism and I have reread it and grown to love it even more, and
recommend it to a lot of others.

You have great taste!
-----------/\-----------
-J

"Ted D. Biggs" wrote:

> From: "Ted D. Biggs" <tbiggs@...>
>
> John William Malcomson wrote:
>
> Sorry it took so long to reply...
>
> > Any of you are welcome to start a topic anytime.
>
> OK. How 'bout this. First, a book assignment. "Living Buddha, Living
> Christ", by Thich Nhat Hanh. I've read it once, but I'll re-read it. How
> 'bout we discuss it as we come across things?
>
> More immediately, I'll throw out a discussion question. John & I have
> kicked it around alittle, but let's hear from the rest of the group:
> "Was Jesus a Buddha?"
>
> My Zen answer is "mu". ;) My non-Zen answer is "Yes". Any takers?
>
> > Since we have quite a group now how about we go around and introduce
> > ourselves.
>
> Sure...
>
> Background: Grew up in a non-religious environment. Not atheistic, just
> not actively involved with any Church or religion. Went to a Catholic
> college (Notre Dame), which was where I got my first real exposure to
> Christianity in any real depth. Was baptized & confirmed Catholic
> several years later when I was getting ready to get married. At the time
> I thought it was the right thing, despite some nagging reservations I
> had about certain tenets of the faith. A Taoist friend of mine, who was
> brought up in a fairly strict Southern Baptist environment, & I got to
> talking & I got back to those issues that I had set aside. I decided to
> "start fresh" again. I read Huston Smith's "The Religions of Man" and
> began to be drawn to Buddhism. Read a few books by Thich Nhat Hanh &
> Thomas Merton & pretty much knew this was where I belonged.
>
> History: I began to get into Buddhism in earnest (i.e. daily meditiation
> & regular reading, participation in forums such as this) about 4 months
> ago. So I'm still a newbie.
>
> Preference: I consider myself Zen Catholic, although lately, for a
> number of reasons, I've been pretty much exclusively Zen Buddhist --
> although I did give up sweets for Lent. Mainly to help in my Buddhist
> practice of eliminating craving. =)
>
> Practice: I meditiate for 1/2 hour more or less daily. Haven't been to
> Mass in ages. I've been reading a *lot* of Zen material recently. Just
> finished "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" & am currently working on a
> compendium of D.T. Suzuki's essays.
>
> Work: I am a software engineer/programmer (C++ & Java).
>
> > PEACE!   ----------------/\--------------(hands clasped bow)
>
> Nice John! I like it! ;) I'll return it:
>
> -----------/\----------
>
> Peace!
>
> ---
> Ted
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> If you like orange and blue, then you will love our new web site!
> http://www.onelist.com
> Onelist: Fostering connections and information exchange
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Open Your Mind!
> PEACE!

John William Malcomson wrote:

Sorry it took so long to reply...

> Any of you are welcome to start a topic anytime.

OK. How 'bout this. First, a book assignment. "Living Buddha, Living
Christ", by Thich Nhat Hanh. I've read it once, but I'll re-read it. How
'bout we discuss it as we come across things?

More immediately, I'll throw out a discussion question. John & I have
kicked it around alittle, but let's hear from the rest of the group:
"Was Jesus a Buddha?"

My Zen answer is "mu". ;) My non-Zen answer is "Yes". Any takers?

> Since we have quite a group now how about we go around and introduce
> ourselves.

Sure...

Background: Grew up in a non-religious environment. Not atheistic, just
not actively involved with any Church or religion. Went to a Catholic
college (Notre Dame), which was where I got my first real exposure to
Christianity in any real depth. Was baptized & confirmed Catholic
several years later when I was getting ready to get married. At the time
I thought it was the right thing, despite some nagging reservations I
had about certain tenets of the faith. A Taoist friend of mine, who was
brought up in a fairly strict Southern Baptist environment, & I got to
talking & I got back to those issues that I had set aside. I decided to
"start fresh" again. I read Huston Smith's "The Religions of Man" and
began to be drawn to Buddhism. Read a few books by Thich Nhat Hanh &
Thomas Merton & pretty much knew this was where I belonged.

History: I began to get into Buddhism in earnest (i.e. daily meditiation
& regular reading, participation in forums such as this) about 4 months
ago. So I'm still a newbie.

Preference: I consider myself Zen Catholic, although lately, for a
number of reasons, I've been pretty much exclusively Zen Buddhist --
although I did give up sweets for Lent. Mainly to help in my Buddhist
practice of eliminating craving. =)

Practice: I meditiate for 1/2 hour more or less daily. Haven't been to
Mass in ages. I've been reading a *lot* of Zen material recently. Just
finished "Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" & am currently working on a
compendium of D.T. Suzuki's essays.

Work: I am a software engineer/programmer (C++ & Java).

> PEACE!   ----------------/\--------------(hands clasped bow)

Nice John! I like it! ;) I'll return it:

-----------/\----------

Peace!

---
Ted

I have been meaning to respond to this, but I have been out of town.  Here are
some comments mixed in the original:>.>>

Ted Biggs wrote:

> From: "Ted Biggs" <tbiggs@...>
>
>
> Basically, here's the deal (I'll try to keep it relatively short), I'm
> having doubts as to whether I can call myself a Christian anymore. Not that
> I don't believe in God. I still do, but not in the way most Christians do.
> Nor do I disbelieve that Jesus was the Son of God. I believe that as well,
> but again, not in the way most Christians that I come across.
>

I grew up in a liberal Baptist family where I came to underrstand that one of
the foundations for being a baptist is something called, "soul freedom".  This
has come to mean that you develop your relationship with God or your
spirituality as an individual.  there is nothing to keep you from calling
yourself a Christian except you.  You define your relationship to God, or your
spirituality.  No one else.

The notion of "son of God" is basically the same for me as "buddha nature".
Jesus was the son of God because he had attained an enlightened existence.
Anyone can be the son or daughter of God, just as anyone can be a Buddha.  Or
you could say we are all sons and daughters/children of God.  We are all
Buddhas.  We just haven't realized it, and uncovered all the shit that keeps us
from living the word and the truth.

>
> As far as God goes, my attitude lately has been one of "...and Man created
> God in his own image". For starters, most people view God as somehow
> external to the universe, an object separate and distinct from the creation.
> This seems contrary to my notion of God as the Infinite, both the creator
> and the creation, everywhere and nowhere. Needless to say, that alone
> ruffled some feathers.
>
> I also can't reconcile the God I believe in, the compassionate, merciful God
> who loves all creatures, with the oftentimes angry, jealous, violent,
> vengeful, petty, exclusionary God that we see in a lot of scripture. If God
> truly loves all, why require eveyone to be a member of some exclusive club?
> Why have a group of "chosen ones"?
>

I think if we live an honest life we are the "chosen ones".
As tio two different faces of God, I see it being as simple as the Old Testament
God, and the New Testament God.  It seems the New Testament is a reflection of
the (fruitful) development to the concept of God.

>
> When I present these questions, the usual answer I get is "it's not my place
> to question God". To me, that's a cop out. Question God how? By refusing to
> take every single word of the Bible as the complete, unvarnished, infallible
> Word of God? That trying to get at the core hidden meaning of the oftentimes
> contradictory text is somehow subverting it?
>
> *Then* I'm told I can't possibly be a Christian and practicing Buddhist at
> the same time. That to do so is to follow the path of false prophets and
> idolatry. First off, I'm not *worshipping* the Buddha, I'm following his
> ethical system.

Right on.  Speaking strictly of my paltry understanding of Buddhism that is
heavily influenced by Zen, Buddhists do not worship Budha.  When they bow down
or make an offering in front of a statue they are not worshipping craven idols.
They are bowing to, or worshipping the enlightened state that Buddha attained.
The are offering themselves in service of all beings/creation.

> Second, I never would have dreamed that following a system
> as peaceful and selfless as Buddhism would be frowned upon by a just,
> loving, caring God. The Buddha's message is every bit to me God's message as
> Jesus'.

Absolutely.  How can anyone believe that a person who lives a right and truthful
life won't go to heaven(if there is a heaven)?

> Which brings me to my notion of Jesus. I personally don't think God
> has an "only Son". I think God has brought us several "deliverers", one of
> the greatest of which was Jesus. I also think the Buddha was a "messiah", or
> "deliverer", a carrier of God's message of love and compassion for all.
>

I see how you better expressed that.

>
> If being a Christian is about being a card carrying member of the Jesus
> Christ Country Club, requiring one to "pledge allegiance" before gaining
> membership, to without question agree to a set of rules which are internally
> contradictory, to must never visit any other Country Club lest you be
> forever banned from the JCCC, then maybe it's time that I give it up.
>

"without question".  This is the key.  Buddhism says go right ahead and
question.  You will find the truth is in the teachings.  To me blind faith is
laziness.

>
> No God of mine is that petty, insecure, angry, vengeful, vindictive or
> exclusionary. No God of mine is subject to the same silly human emotions
> which have led to millenia of slavery, senseless wars and genocide. My God
> is bigger than that. I can't live a lie. I can't profess to believe things
> that I don't. If my notions of God and Jesus aren't Christian notions, maybe
> I need to own up to the fact that I'm not a Christian. I personally think I
> am, despite my admittedly unique perspective on things, but if my Christian
> bretheren don't want me around, then maybe I need to chart my own path
> outside of "offical" Christianity. Oh, wait, can't do that, that would make
> me an arrogant, false prophet thumbing my nose at God... **SIGH**
>

I think you will find that the deeper you look into Christianity the more it is
like Buddhism.  I think of Chritianity as something I grew up in, part of my
culture.  I can't give it up or let it go.  It still means a lot to me, and as I
find more and more of Buddhism in Christianity it convinces me of the
commonalities of both faiths, and all faiths.

>
> Sorry about the long diatribe, but I had to vent. Maybe now I can get some
> sleep. ;)
>
> --
> Ted
>
>

A label is just a label.  I call myself a Christian Buddhist in order to
challenge myself not to tie me down to certain philosophies.
How can I redefine both faiths in order to make them one for me?

Some Christians whom I have told that I am a Christian Buddhist, have been
insulted.  They take it personally.  They have become sooooo attached to
Christianity that it has closed their minds.
They are the ones to worry about, not those of us who try to open our eyes.

There are SEVEN of us on this list now.

Say hi and introduce yourself if you like.

Otherwise please make comments on the above, or start a topic of your own.

I am grateful to finally have the chance to diiscuss being a Christian Buddhistw
tih some one else  There seemed to be no one around to talk to about it when I
made the decision in 1992.  I think there are a lot of Christian Buddhist there
who go to church or a center/temple often.  We may have no place to go to
satisfy our wishes to practice both faiths(that don't seem to be two), as afr as
i know, but at least we can talk with each other.

Thanks for your time,
John

Here it is, 3 am & I'm wide awake, going through another one of my spiritual
crises. Normally, I can sit down, focus on my breathing & shake things off.
This time, I'm totally restless.

Basically, here's the deal (I'll try to keep it relatively short), I'm
having doubts as to whether I can call myself a Christian anymore. Not that
I don't believe in God. I still do, but not in the way most Christians do.
Nor do I disbelieve that Jesus was the Son of God. I believe that as well,
but again, not in the way most Christians that I come across.

As far as God goes, my attitude lately has been one of "...and Man created
God in his own image". For starters, most people view God as somehow
external to the universe, an object separate and distinct from the creation.
This seems contrary to my notion of God as the Infinite, both the creator
and the creation, everywhere and nowhere. Needless to say, that alone
ruffled some feathers.

I also can't reconcile the God I believe in, the compassionate, merciful God
who loves all creatures, with the oftentimes angry, jealous, violent,
vengeful, petty, exclusionary God that we see in a lot of scripture. If God
truly loves all, why require eveyone to be a member of some exclusive club?
Why have a group of "chosen ones"?

When I present these questions, the usual answer I get is "it's not my place
to question God". To me, that's a cop out. Question God how? By refusing to
take every single word of the Bible as the complete, unvarnished, infallible
Word of God? That trying to get at the core hidden meaning of the oftentimes
contradictory text is somehow subverting it?

*Then* I'm told I can't possibly be a Christian and practicing Buddhist at
the same time. That to do so is to follow the path of false prophets and
idolatry. First off, I'm not *worshipping* the Buddha, I'm following his
ethical system. Second, I never would have dreamed that following a system
as peaceful and selfless as Buddhism would be frowned upon by a just,
loving, caring God. The Buddha's message is every bit to me God's message as
Jesus'. Which brings me to my notion of Jesus. I personally don't think God
has an "only Son". I think God has brought us several "deliverers", one of
the greatest of which was Jesus. I also think the Buddha was a "messiah", or
"deliverer", a carrier of God's message of love and compassion for all.

If being a Christian is about being a card carrying member of the Jesus
Christ Country Club, requiring one to "pledge allegiance" before gaining
membership, to without question agree to a set of rules which are internally
contradictory, to must never visit any other Country Club lest you be
forever banned from the JCCC, then maybe it's time that I give it up.

No God of mine is that petty, insecure, angry, vengeful, vindictive or
exclusionary. No God of mine is subject to the same silly human emotions
which have led to millenia of slavery, senseless wars and genocide. My God
is bigger than that. I can't live a lie. I can't profess to believe things
that I don't. If my notions of God and Jesus aren't Christian notions, maybe
I need to own up to the fact that I'm not a Christian. I personally think I
am, despite my admittedly unique perspective on things, but if my Christian
bretheren don't want me around, then maybe I need to chart my own path
outside of "offical" Christianity. Oh, wait, can't do that, that would make
me an arrogant, false prophet thumbing my nose at God... **SIGH**

Sorry about the long diatribe, but I had to vent. Maybe now I can get some
sleep. ;)

--
Ted

> From: John William Malcomson <jwm@...>

>> Anyway, an atheist friend of mine (actually, he'd describe himself as a
>> Taoist) and I often have religious discussions. He's quite spiritual,
>> just doesn't believe in a God as Godhead per se. He got to probing about
>> why I believe certain things that I had already had repressed doubts
>> about anyway so one day I decided to start from scratch.
>>
>
> Wouldn't he be an agnostic then?(one who doesn't know if there is a God)

No, he's pretty adamant that he doesn't believe in a God as a discrete
entity.

>> For the Zennies, it's to bring about enlightenement (not to imply that
>> other schools of Buddhism don't -- I just like the Zen approach), for
>> the mystics, it's to be open to receive the Holy Spirit.
>
> Or to "know God".

Well, technically, the objective of Zen is not to "know" anything. I believe
St. John of the Cross once made an "empty cup" analogy. By destroying the
ego-self, becoming no-self, as it were, you become an empty cup which can
then be filled by the Holy Spirit. The Zen person would say, "becoming an
empty cup is great, now get rid of the cup."

> Looking in a big dictionary, the definitions of messiah include:
> 3. any expected deliverer
> 4. a zealous leader of some cause or project
>
> All the names above fit the fourth definiton.  However the third is more
> likely what people will think of.

Actually, I was thinking more in terms of the the third. I would definitely
put the Buddha, Jesus and Mohammed in the "deliverer" category. MLK, Gandhi
& Mother Theresa probably are more aptly described as charismatic
embodiments of an ideal, so maybe saint would be a better categorization.

> haven't stopped since.  I became a Christian Buddhist in 1992 when I
> realized it was unavoidable.  I had gained so much respect for what I was
> reading about Buddhism(mostly Zen), that I had no choice but to be one.  Of
> course I couldn't give up my Christian roots and upbringing(my Dad is a very
> liberal open-minded Baptist minister) so evrer since I have been trying to
> figure out how I can be a Christian Buddhist.

Being deep in the heart of Texas, "liberal" and "Baptist" were not two words
I expected to see together.

> What do you think?
> How do you work out the notion of God in your beliefs?

Oh man, that's a slow pitch! Heheheheh....

I've kind of reached the point of not really thinking about God all that
much. I don't mean that in a bad way. My conception of God is the embodiment
of the infinite. That being the case, it's pretty much pointless to try to
conceive of, or describe, God with our finite minds & vocabularies. How do
you accurately describe the limitless with a limited lexicon?

So for me, that's where Zen comes in. I personally believe God exists in (or
more appropriately *is*) everyone. By destroying the illusory ego-self, two
things happen:

1. You get in touch with your Buddha-self, which is God as God resides in
you.
2. You learn that there is no self which is distinct from others. Everything
is interrelated (i.e. non-duality/interbeing). Thus, you get in touch in God
as God exists in others.

So only by destroying the ego can you acheive communion with yourself,
everything else around you, and thus, ultimately, God. If I were to make a
Zen koan out of my notion of God:

God is everywhere.
God is nowhere.

---
Ted

John William Malcomson wrote:
> > > A new roommate introduced me to Buddhism over 20 years ago.  I went to
> > > "meetings" with him, and decided to become a Buddhist, we studied
> > > American Buddhism, called Nichiren Shoshu.  We lit candles and chanted
> > > "NAM MYOHO RENGE KYO" with prayer beads.  I found it very peaceful and
> > > relaxing.  I would love to learn about it again.  It was at one of the
> >
>
> Nichiren Shoshu has been very popular in the US.  Interestingly it is the
> only one which has been successful attracting persons of color other than
> Asian Americans.
> What do you think of those who say that it is materialistic?  It has a
> reputation as being a practice in which believers chant to get
> something(which might be a car or something).

This is true, and many did.  But you were also encouraged to chant for
intangibles, such as peace of mind and enlightment.

> In my opinion NS, or Sokka
> Gakkai, gives followers the optimism that they have trouble finding
> elsewhere.  I believe the results of chanting are a more positive attitude
> and more self-confidence/self-worth which naturally improves the lives of
> those who follow it.
> The danger here is something that is addressed in Zen Buddhism.  The
> "chanting for something" process may induce an attachment to the result.
> That attachment can be trouble.  The best way I have heard it expressed in
> Zen is "to not become attached to the goal of practice, but to just enjoy
> that practice itself."  In regards to seeking for enlightenment: "to seek
> and to be happy in that seeking". [these are not exact quotes]

This is where I see a similarity to Christianity.  Materialism and
wealthy doesn't neccessarily promote happiness, self-worth, or peace of
mind....

> I don't think it is that simple.  I believe Buddha and Christ were both
> teachers.  I think messiah is a loaded term.

In what way?  There is a lot of talk now about the Rapture and
Tribulation, and the second coming of the Messiah....

> I was
> just talking about this last Sunday.  I facilitate a Sunday school
> class(actually discussion group) at my church on Christianity & Buddhism.
> It is difficult for me to explain, but it seems quite clear that both
> Christianity and Buddhism have great wisdom.  We are going through some of
> the similarities in class.  I don't see aneed for a direct correlation.  I
> just think it is fascinating that they came up with a lot of the same stuff.

Can you share some examples?

> I agree with your conclusion except for the word Messiah.
> As you may have guessed I am a bit of an academic.
> Looking in a big dictionary, the definitions of messiah include:
> 3. any expected deliverer
> 4. a zealous leader of some cause or project

Number 4 could also be the Anti-christ....

cindi

--
My Personal Webpage:
http://www.angelfire.com/wa/wafstetworld/

Please sign my slam book and my guestbook,
both located on my main page....

Listowner of "The Sixties" discussion list about  the life and culture
of
the 1960's.  On OneList, to subscribe;
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/TheSixties

My ICQ Number:
ICQ#9115718

My AOL Buddy List Screenname:
EponaC

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, to
change
the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Read the best books around, the story of the people left
behind on Judgement Day.  "Left Behind", "Tribulation Force", "Nicolae",
"Soul Harvest", and "Apollyon" by Tim F. Lahaye and Jerry B. Jenkins.

You can read more about them at Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0842329129/o/qid=919307067/sr=2-1/002-003\
4784-3298674

Ted wrote:
> > > How did you first become interested in Buddhism?

>>> He lent me "The Religions of Man" and I started reading. >>>
>
>>> Lo & behold I discovered Thich Nhat Hanh's "Living Buddha, Living
> Christ". >>>

I read these two books years ago...I had forgotten all about them.  I'll
have to dig them out and read them again.  The other books you mentions
sound interesting too.
>
> Yes, I read a lot -- I usually have 3-4 books that I'm working on at any
> given time. ;)

You sound like me....

>>> I've been personally drawn to Zen/zazen & Christian mysticism. The two
> seem to complement each other nicely. >>>

So have I.  I've just recently started learning about labyrinth walking,
which seems to have traits of both, too.  Prayer and quiet reflection.

> > meetings, that I met a woman from Korea, and she told me that many
> > Buddhists were also Christians, and that they believed that Christ and
> > Buddha were one and the same.

> Interesting that she mentioned that. That's kind of been my take on
> things lately. I see Christ as a reborn Buddha in a different
> historical/socio-policitical/religious setting. I also see the Buddha as
> another messiah. I've always had trouble with the concept of Jesus being
> the *only* son of God as we Catholics state in our Apostles Creed (to
> the point where I've changed the way I say it -- instead of "the *only*
> Son of God", I say "the Son of God" -- instead of "*one* Holy &
> Apostolic Church", I say "the Holy & Apostolic Church"). Yes, I know
> dogma and even the Bible state that, but I'm not a biblical literalist
> and it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Since God would
> understand that there are different cultures with different ways of
> doing things, wouldn't he want to send messengers/saviors tailored
> specifically to each of these cultures? What about beings on other
> planets? So my angle on the whole thing is that God has sent several
> messiahs over the ages to address different cultures and different
> issues: the Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Mother
> Theresa. All of these people were enlightened. All of these people were
> Buddhas. They all taught the Dharma. They are all my spiritual guides.
>
I agree with you, Ted.  I've tried many different styles of churches.  I
was raised by an athiest father, had one grandparent who was a
Presbyterian, and another who was Christian Scientist, attended a
Unitarian church, then Episcopal, bacame a Buddhist, married in the
Methodist, converted to Catholicism and practiced for 15 years, and now
attend a evangelistic church, while studying New Age beliefs.  Lots of
searching.

cindi
--
My Personal Webpage:
http://www.angelfire.com/wa/wafstetworld/

Please sign my slam book and my guestbook,
both located on my main page....

Listowner of "The Sixties" discussion list about  the life and culture
of
the 1960's.  On OneList, to subscribe;
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/TheSixties

My ICQ Number:
ICQ#9115718

My AOL Buddy List Screenname:
EponaC

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, to
change
the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Read the best books around, the story of the people left
behind on Judgement Day.  "Left Behind", "Tribulation Force", "Nicolae",
"Soul Harvest", and "Apollyon" by Tim F. Lahaye and Jerry B. Jenkins.

You can read more about them at Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0842329129/o/qid=919307067/sr=2-1/002-003\
4784-3298674

I will respond to your notes and give my introduction as well.

Ted wrote:

> From: Ted <tbiggs@...>
>
> Cindi Wafstet wrote:
>
> > John William Malcomson wrote:
>
> > > Welcome!
> > >
> > > Let's get things started.
> > >
> > > How did you first become interested in Buddhism?
>
> Shouldn't the host be going first? ;)
>
> Anyhoo... I've always felt uncomfortable with several tenets of
> organized religion. When there's a good priest with some good
> penetrating insight into the true nature of Jesus' teachings, I enjoy
> Mass. But those are hard to come by (I recently moved to Houston, and
> even the Catholic priests around here seem to have a slightly
> fundamentalist bent). I've never really been inclined to sing. I'm more
> into quiet reflection & intellectual discussion. I like give & take
> (which is probably what I like about NGs & mailing lists).
>
> Anyway, an atheist friend of mine (actually, he'd describe himself as a
> Taoist) and I often have religious discussions. He's quite spiritual,
> just doesn't believe in a God as Godhead per se. He got to probing about
> why I believe certain things that I had already had repressed doubts
> about anyway so one day I decided to start from scratch.
>

Wouldn't he be an agnostic then?(one who doesn't know if there is a God)

>
> He lent me "The Religions of Man" and I started reading. One of the
> first impressions that I remember getting is the remarkable similarity
> of the core teachings of each religion. I learned a little about
> Buddhism (and many other religions) in that book and Buddhism struck a
> chord with me. More so than any of the others. So I started reading a
> little more. I wanted to see if there was a way to reconcile my growing
> interest in Buddhism with my Christian background.
>
> Lo & behold I discovered Thich Nhat Hanh's "Living Buddha, Living
> Christ".

Excellent book, thought a bit simplistic.

> Then I discovered Merton's "Zen & The Birds of Appetite". I
> finally felt at home. I started doing zazen on a daily basis and I still
> have a huge list of books that I want to read. I'm currently working on
> Shelby Spong's "Rescuing The Bible From Fundamentalism" -- an
> *excellent* book so far. Merton's "Mystics & Zen Masters", "Entering The
> Stream -- An Introduction To Buddhism" and Meister Eckhart (well, I
> haven't started Eckhart yet).
>
> Yes, I read a lot -- I usually have 3-4 books that I'm working on at any
> given time. ;)
>
> > A new roommate introduced me to Buddhism over 20 years ago.  I went to
> > "meetings" with him, and decided to become a Buddhist, we studied
> > American Buddhism, called Nichiren Shoru.  We lit candles and chanted
> > "NAM MYOHO RENGE KYO" with prayer beads.  I found it very peaceful and
> > relaxing.  I would love to learn about it again.  It was at one of the
>

Nichiren Shoshu has been very popular in the US.  Interestingly it is the
only one which has been successful attracting persons of color other than
Asian Americans.
What do you think of those who say that it is materialistic?  It has a
reputation as being a practice in which believers chant to get
something(which might be a car or something).  In my opinion NS, or Sokka
Gakkai, gives followers the optimism that they have trouble finding
elsewhere.  I believe the results of chanting are a more positive attitude
and more self-confidence/self-worth which naturally improves the lives of
those who follow it.
The danger here is something that is addressed in Zen Buddhism.  The
"chanting for something" process may induce an attachment to the result.
That attachment can be trouble.  The best way I have heard it expressed in
Zen is "to not become attached to the goal of practice, but to just enjoy
that practice itself."  In regards to seeking for enlightenment: "to seek
and to be happy in that seeking". [these are not exact quotes]

>
> I've been personally drawn to Zen/zazen & Christian mysticism. The two
> seem to complement each other nicely. Both are concerned with completely
> letting go of the illusory ego-self and being open to pure experience.
> For the Zennies, it's to bring about enlightenement (not to imply that
> other schools of Buddhism don't -- I just like the Zen approach), for
> the mystics, it's to be open to receive the Holy Spirit.

Or to "know God".

>
> > meetings, that I met a woman from Korea, and she told me that many
> > Buddhists were also Christians, and that they believed that Christ and
> > Buddha were one and the same.
> >
> > Cindi
>
> Interesting that she mentioned that. That's kind of been my take on
> things lately. I see Christ as a reborn Buddha in a different
> historical/socio-policitical/religious setting. I also see the Buddha as
> another messiah.

I don't think it is that simple.  I believe Buddha and Christ were both
teachers.  I think messiah is a loaded term.
There are those who believe Christ was the "future Buddha"=Maitreya.  That
seems to easy to me.
In my own life I don't see the need for that kind of rationalization.  I was
just talking about this last Sunday.  I facilitate a Sunday school
class(actually discussion group) at my church on Christianity & Buddhism.
It is difficult for me to explain, but it seems quite clear that both
Christianity and Buddhism have great wisdom.  We are going through some of
the similarities in class.  I don't see aneed for a direct correlation.  I
just think it is fascinating that they came up with a lot of the same stuff.

> I've always had trouble with the concept of Jesus being
> the *only* son of God as we Catholics state in our Apostles Creed (to
> the point where I've changed the way I say it -- instead of "the *only*
> Son of God", I say "the Son of God" -- instead of "*one* Holy &
> Apostolic Church", I say "the Holy & Apostolic Church").

I think we are are all sons and daughters of God.  Just as much as Jesus
was.  That links to the idea that we all have Buddha-nature.

> Yes, I know
> dogma and even the Bible state that, but I'm not a biblical literalist
> and it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Since God would
> understand that there are different cultures with different ways of
> doing things, wouldn't he want to send messengers/saviors tailored
> specifically to each of these cultures? What about beings on other
> planets? So my angle on the whole thing is that God has sent several
> messiahs over the ages to address different cultures and different
> issues: the Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Mother
> Theresa. All of these people were enlightened. All of these people were
> Buddhas. They all taught the Dharma. They are all my spiritual guides.
>
> Next! ;)
>

I agree with your conclusion except for the word Messiah.
As you may have guessed I am a bit of an academic.
Looking in a big dictionary, the definitions of messiah include:
3. any expected deliverer
4. a zealous leader of some cause or project

All the names above fit the fourth definiton.  However the third is more
likely what people will think of.
I like the terms Buddha-Teacher-Bodhisattva better.  The great thing about
Mahayana Buddhism(especially Zen) is that it is clear that all of us have
the potential within us to be a great teacher or at least a Buddha.  Anyone
can take the Bodhisattva vows, consciously or not, and work to save all
beings.

As to how I became interested in Buddism, it was my study of Asian culture
after I went with seven other students from Evergreen State College to Nepal
by way of Thailand & India, to study Nepalese language and culture.  I
started my study of Buddhism through books and some experience then and
haven't stopped since.  I became a Christian Buddhist in 1992 when I
realized it was unavoidable.  I had gained so much respect for what I was
reading about Buddhism(mostly Zen), that I had no choice but to be one.  Of
course I couldn't give up my Christian roots and upbringing(my Dad is a very
liberal open-minded Baptist minister) so evrer since I have been trying to
figure out how I can be a Christian Buddhist.

What do you think?
How do you work out the notion of God in your beliefs?

This is fun.

Thanks,
john

Cindi Wafstet wrote:

> John William Malcomson wrote:

> > Welcome!
> >
> > Let's get things started.
> >
> > How did you first become interested in Buddhism?

Shouldn't the host be going first? ;)

Anyhoo... I've always felt uncomfortable with several tenets of
organized religion. When there's a good priest with some good
penetrating insight into the true nature of Jesus' teachings, I enjoy
Mass. But those are hard to come by (I recently moved to Houston, and
even the Catholic priests around here seem to have a slightly
fundamentalist bent). I've never really been inclined to sing. I'm more
into quiet reflection & intellectual discussion. I like give & take
(which is probably what I like about NGs & mailing lists).

Anyway, an atheist friend of mine (actually, he'd describe himself as a
Taoist) and I often have religious discussions. He's quite spiritual,
just doesn't believe in a God as Godhead per se. He got to probing about
why I believe certain things that I had already had repressed doubts
about anyway so one day I decided to start from scratch.

He lent me "The Religions of Man" and I started reading. One of the
first impressions that I remember getting is the remarkable similarity
of the core teachings of each religion. I learned a little about
Buddhism (and many other religions) in that book and Buddhism struck a
chord with me. More so than any of the others. So I started reading a
little more. I wanted to see if there was a way to reconcile my growing
interest in Buddhism with my Christian background.

Lo & behold I discovered Thich Nhat Hanh's "Living Buddha, Living
Christ". Then I discovered Merton's "Zen & The Birds of Appetite". I
finally felt at home. I started doing zazen on a daily basis and I still
have a huge list of books that I want to read. I'm currently working on
Shelby Spong's "Rescuing The Bible From Fundamentalism" -- an
*excellent* book so far. Merton's "Mystics & Zen Masters", "Entering The
Stream -- An Introduction To Buddhism" and Meister Eckhart (well, I
haven't started Eckhart yet).

Yes, I read a lot -- I usually have 3-4 books that I'm working on at any
given time. ;)

> A new roommate introduced me to Buddhism over 20 years ago.  I went to
> "meetings" with him, and decided to become a Buddhist, we studied
> American Buddhism, called Nichiren Shoru.  We lit candles and chanted
> "NAM MYOHO RENGE KYO" with prayer beads.  I found it very peaceful and
> relaxing.  I would love to learn about it again.  It was at one of the

I've been personally drawn to Zen/zazen & Christian mysticism. The two
seem to complement each other nicely. Both are concerned with completely
letting go of the illusory ego-self and being open to pure experience.
For the Zennies, it's to bring about enlightenement (not to imply that
other schools of Buddhism don't -- I just like the Zen approach), for
the mystics, it's to be open to receive the Holy Spirit.

> meetings, that I met a woman from Korea, and she told me that many
> Buddhists were also Christians, and that they believed that Christ and
> Buddha were one and the same.
>
> Cindi

Interesting that she mentioned that. That's kind of been my take on
things lately. I see Christ as a reborn Buddha in a different
historical/socio-policitical/religious setting. I also see the Buddha as
another messiah. I've always had trouble with the concept of Jesus being
the *only* son of God as we Catholics state in our Apostles Creed (to
the point where I've changed the way I say it -- instead of "the *only*
Son of God", I say "the Son of God" -- instead of "*one* Holy &
Apostolic Church", I say "the Holy & Apostolic Church"). Yes, I know
dogma and even the Bible state that, but I'm not a biblical literalist
and it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Since God would
understand that there are different cultures with different ways of
doing things, wouldn't he want to send messengers/saviors tailored
specifically to each of these cultures? What about beings on other
planets? So my angle on the whole thing is that God has sent several
messiahs over the ages to address different cultures and different
issues: the Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Mother
Theresa. All of these people were enlightened. All of these people were
Buddhas. They all taught the Dharma. They are all my spiritual guides.

Next! ;)

-----------------------------------------
Ted D. Biggs

"A person who is nice to you, but rude to
the waiter, is not a nice person."
         - Dave Barry

tbiggs@...
(Remove blah. to send/reply)
----------------------------------------

John William Malcomson wrote:
>
> From: John William Malcomson <jwm@...>
>
> Welcome!
>
> Let's get things started.
>
> How did you first become interested in Buddhism?

A new roommate introduced me to Buddhism over 20 years ago.  I went to
"meetings" with him, and decided to become a Buddhist, we studied
American Buddhism, called Nichiren Shoru.  We lit candles and chanted
"NAM MYOHO RENGE KYO" with prayer beads.  I found it very peaceful and
relaxing.  I would love to learn about it again.  It was at one of the
meetings, that I met a woman from Korea, and she told me that many
Buddhists were also Christians, and that they believed that Christ and
Buddha were one and the same.

Cindi
--
My Personal Webpage:
http://www.angelfire.com/wa/wafstetworld/

Please sign my slam book and my guestbook,
both located on my main page....

Listowner of "The Sixties" discussion list about  the life and culture
of
the 1960's.  On OneList, to subscribe;
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/TheSixties

My ICQ Number:
ICQ#9115718

My AOL Buddy List Screenname:
EponaC

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, to
change
the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Read the best books around, the story of the people left
behind on Judgement Day.  "Left Behind", "Tribulation Force", "Nicolae",
"Soul Harvest", and "Apollyon" by Tim F. Lahaye and Jerry B. Jenkins.

You can read more about them at Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0842329129/o/qid=919307067/sr=2-1/002-003\
4784-3298674

Welcome!

Let's get things started.

How did you first become interested in Buddhism?

-John(moderator)