Oh, thanks,Jane ... was delicious.  Maybe you know about this, in the account of
Weled fetching Shems back to Konya (XXll), it doesn't say who the French sage
was but I've heard Coleman Barks tell the story and he said that it is St.
Francis.  Wonder how this was determined?

Thanks, again ... I'm afraid I'm one of those who said Shems rasulullah :)

Kalima

--- On Mon, 12/14/09, Jane Dodds <jane_ajne@...> wrote:

> From: Jane Dodds <jane_ajne@...>
> Subject: Re: Re : [caravansarai] help from my friends
> To: caravansarai@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, December 14, 2009, 5:22 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       Thanks
> Kalimah.
>  I found more here:
> http://www.scribd.
> com/doc/21283576 /the-whirling- ecstacy
> Best wishes
> Jane
>
> --- On Mon, 14/12/09, Kalimah <kalimahnm@yahoo.
> com> wrote:
>
> From: Kalimah <kalimahnm@yahoo. com>
> Subject: Re: Re : [caravansarai] help from my friends
> To: caravansarai@ yahoogroups. com
> Date: Monday, 14 December, 2009, 16:32
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> As Shamsuddin Tabrizi said:
>
>
> "My insults can make an old cynic become a believer,
> and a believer a
> saint entering Paradise. Someone asked me who was the
> devil. I
> answered: 'It is you, because in this moment you are
> swallowed by
> illusion. If you are not the devil, why would you be
> swallowed by
> illusion? But, being swallowed by illusion, what can you
> know of the
> devil?
>
> But if you had asked me who is the Angel Gabriel, I also would have
> said; 'It is you!"
>
> Obviously Shems used peyote, too :-)
>
> --- On Mon, 12/14/09, azo chari <azo64000@yahoo.
> co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: azo chari <azo64000@yahoo. co.uk>
> Subject: Re: Re : [caravansarai] help from my friends
> To: caravansarai@ yahoogroups. com
> Date: Monday, December 14, 2009, 2:52 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       hello chums all
> thank all for ur advices and best wishes . i am very
> appreciated .
> however the only thing that worked is the real
> mccOYOTE:
> yeaa thanks to sister kalima (is she ordained a sister
> yet in her ca'lik enklave?) for the the PEYOTE she sent
> me . i recieved them on sat afternoo and they are magic.
> they didnt stop the old goat(allah baphomat) from 
> karaoking into me ears but they did put me to sleep
> like a devil.
>  
> sorry here is a call from him again :
> --
> -what u doing
> -wat
> -calling me old goat?
> -no
> -yes u did
> -no i said old god
> -u said goat
> - yea but u look like a goat and u smell like one and
> sound like one and hav horns
> - just dont do it again. and wat about this peyote
> thin i didnt giv u permission
>  -listen i gotta go
> - listen u son of b... dont hang up on me, i am god
> remember
> - sorry i gonna go bye
> ---
> sorry folks about this divine interruption. where was
> i? oh ye i just wanna say thank yyu all and thank kalima for
> the peyote
> see yuz
> bye
>  
>  
>
>
>
>
> From:
> "yosyflug@isdn. net.il" <yosyflug@isdn.
> net.il>
> To:
> caravansarai@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Sun, 13
> December, 2009 12:42:47
> Subject: Re:
> Re : [caravansarai] help from my friends
>
>  
>
>
>
> ---- Original message ----
> >Date:   Sun, 13 Dec 2009 12:18:29 +0000
> (GMT)
> >From:   Martin Mathieson <martinmathieson@ yahoo.co. uk>
> >Subject:   Re: Re : [caravansarai] help from
> my friends
> >To:   caravansarai@
> yahoogroups. com
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Why are people around here bothered about hearing
> > voices in their heads. I have dozens who pop up to
> > put their point of view and try and tell ME what to
> > do. I just tell these ancestors, forgotten teachers,
> > memories and other numerous sub ents that I'm in
> > charge and not them. However,
>  when I hear a
>  voice
> > whispering common sense and sound practical advice
> > not based on immediate sense gratification I try and
> > listen. This voice usually talks more sense than I
> > do. I do't know where this wisdom comes from but
> > it's usually pretty sound even if I am too
> selfish
> > and to act upon it.
> >
> > Best wishes to you all.
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > Martin
> >
>
> :) nasrudin heard in a middle of the night a voice which
> whispered in his ear, saying: "there is no such a
> thing as
> voices whipering in the ear at night"
>
> yosy
>
> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
> >
> > From: mic mack <mackmic2000@
> yahoo.fr>
> > To: caravansarai@ yahoogroups.
> com
> > Sent: Sat, 12 December, 2009 21:40:06
> > Subject: Re : [caravansarai] help from my friends
> >
> >
> > I have always
>  wondered what would I do if I would
> > heard a voice in my head telling me : "GO AND
> SAVE
> > THE WORLD IN MY NAME".
> >
> > I will do these things, in this order :
> >
> > First I will use an aluminum paper around my head to
> > see if the voice stops. If it stops, it should be
> > microwaves generated voices from bad guys.
> > http://www.freepate
> ntsonline. com/4877027. html
> >
> > If the voices go on, I will stop to eat during a
> > fews days to eliminate potential poisons or
> > narcotic.
> >
> > If the voice go on I would try to get help from an
> > hypnotist.
> >
>
> > If it
>  does not work , I will ask the voice a
> > question nobody can answer , even me !
> > For example, what is the winning number of the
> > lottery ?
> > If I get no answer or a wrong answer, the voice
> > should be an auditory hallucination.
> > ( http://www.ted. com/talks/
> oliver_sacks_
> > what_hallucinati on_reveals_ about_our_ minds.html )
> > I would then go to the psy.
> >
> > If I would get the right answer, then I would be in
> > contact with something external and real.
> > In this case I would not obey order from a stranger.
> > Then I would in my turn give orders to the voice to
> > get rid of it. Voices don't like to be ordered. :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Morten Nymann Olesen

To: caravansarai@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 14, 2009 5:59 PM

Subject: [caravansarai] Who is God?

 

Dear friends

 

A few laughs might be helpful....

Dave Allen on Religion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxo81Ok9Urk&feature=related

---- Original message ----
>Date:�� Sun, 13 Dec 2009 12:18:29 +0000 (GMT)
>From:�� Martin Mathieson <martinmathieson@...>
>Subject:�� Re: Re : [caravansarai] help from my friends
>To:�� caravansarai@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>   Hi All,
>
>   Why are people around here bothered about hearing
>   voices in their heads. I have dozens who pop up to
>   put their point of view and try and tell ME what to
>   do. I just tell these ancestors, forgotten teachers,
>   memories and other numerous sub ents that I'm in
>   charge and not them. However,  when I hear a voice
>   whispering common sense and sound practical advice
>   not based on immediate sense gratification I try and
>   listen. This voice usually talks more sense than I
>   do. I do't know where this wisdom comes from but
>   it's usually pretty sound even if I am too selfish
>   and to act upon it.
>
>   Best wishes to you all.
>
>   Martin
>
>   Martin
>


:) nasrudin heard in a middle of the night a voice which
whispered in his ear, saying: "there is no such a thing as
voices whipering in the ear at night"

yosy

>     ------------------------------------------------
>
>   From: mic mack <mackmic2000@...>
>   To: caravansarai@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sat, 12 December, 2009 21:40:06
>   Subject: Re : [caravansarai] help from my friends
>
>
>   I have always wondered what would I do if I would
>   heard a voice in my head telling me : "GO AND SAVE
>   THE  WORLD IN MY NAME".
>
>   I will do these things, in this order :
>
>   First I will use an aluminum paper around my head to
>   see if the voice stops. If it stops, it should be
>   microwaves generated voices from bad guys.
>   http://www.freepate ntsonline. com/4877027. html
>
>   If the voices go on, I will stop to eat during a
>   fews days to eliminate potential poisons or
>   narcotic.
>
>   If the voice go on I would try to get help from an
>   hypnotist.
>
>   If it does not work , I will ask the voice a
>   question nobody can answer , even me !
>   For example, what is the winning number of the
>   lottery  ?
>   If I get no answer or a wrong answer, the voice
>   should be an auditory hallucination.
>   ( http://www.ted. com/talks/ oliver_sacks_
>   what_hallucinati on_reveals_ about_our_ minds.html )
>   I would then go to the psy.
>
>   If I would get the right answer, then I would be in
>   contact with something external and real.
>   In this case I would not obey order from a stranger.
>   Then I would in my turn give orders to the voice to
>   get rid of it. Voices don't like to be ordered. :)

----- Original Message -----

From: cjm578

To: caravansarai@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 11:03 PM

Subject: [caravansarai] Re: help from my friends

 

strange, i was debating whether to reply to this discussion and suddenly i had this really intense sense of de ja vu. it went on much longer than usual. not sure what that means.

in any case, i'm not sure how seriously to take this message-- after all, azo is a humorist who likes to exaggerate and there are big winking smiley faces all over the place here!

but getting to the point-- i think my position is pretty clear:

there is a difference between a) a personal compulsion that comes out of a need for self-expression, a strong desire for change and from a frustration with the way things are, and b)the 'objective' (in the Gurdjieffian sense) knowledge of what should be done, when, how, and under what circumstances and conditions-- and the capacity to make it happen 'in the world'. To the degree that the former interferes with the latter, there is a better chance of going astray and being less effective.

which doesn't mean i don't understand the need for personal expression and how important it is-- sometimes it seems even more important than any 'higher knowledge'. sometimes we're so outraged by things as they are that we would rather die than keep our outrage supressed. we feel that we're justified, and maybe we are, in a sense, but are we really dealing with an understanding of a deeper level of reality, or are we just operating according to our own desires and assumptions? and will the latter really get us anywhere? this doesn't just apply to azo, but to everyone, including myself and Eric and all the rest.

to paraphrase Shah, we may want the train and everyone on it to go faster-- and we all think we can go faster on our own and if we could direct the train ourselves-- but this world is a moving train and it has its own path and we're not allowed to leave it, neglect it or destroy it!

all we can do is to try our best to remove-- and support others in removing-- the unnecessary obstacles that stand in the way of the train's necessary motion. but we have to remember that the train makes stops and starts, and needs fuel and drivers and passengers of all kinds, and has to go over all kinds of terrain-- if not, it wouldn't be much of a train now would it?

imo, we have to learn from both successes and failures-- both our own and other people's. if someone has found a way to do something that works, we try to use that method wherever possible-- at least until it shows itself to be totally useless, or a better method exists. Where there are ways of improving the method, we try to innovate and make improvements. we constantly monitor what we are doing and what the results are, a process of reciprocal feedback. but if we get to the point-- for whatever reason-- where we can't adapt or change according to circumstances, and keep doing the same repetitive and useless things over and over, then no learning and no progress can happen, and the natural instinct for growth and development will turn into a quagmire, like the stream that refused to let the wind carry it over the desert.

--- In caravansarai@yahoogroups.com, "erictwose" <eric.twose@...> wrote:
>
> --- In caravansarai@yahoogroups.com, "azo64000" <azo64000@> wrote:
> >
> > salom alikum all
> > guys this be freakin seious-;) i doed not sleep all night last night. that socky goat in the sky (allah) spended all night singing into me ear in a loud horrible voice: shalalalalallaaaaaaaaaaaaala shashalalaaala.
> > why ? coz i telled him i be not going to do the dirty work for him anymore. i upseted many people and i do not like that.
> > and he sayed to me: listen to me u piece of s... u do what i tell u to do or i make yur life a hell . and i sayed to him : no. and he sayed to me: i will make yur night tonite a hell. and he doed indeed.
> >
> > tell me me friends what i be going to do?
> > i want to stop posting here or anywhere and have a quiet life but he telled me i be posting here and i have to say what he wants me to say.
> > wel thanks heaven tomorrow i will be sunday and on sundays he be asleep all day so i can hav a day of piss.
> > i have not telled u that i got banned from youtube and that i haved over sixty accounts closed. he tells me to put a picture of the tomb of momo on account background and then the muzzies flag it ( and they be freakin right to do so coz it be too offensive even to BNP guys-;)))). hey i am serious.
> > so please guys if u caned help me let me know.
> > will, u caned help me by banning me from this group although as soon as i be banned from one site he(the old socky goat) tell me to go to another. there is no end.
> > i really regert the day i met him some thrity years ago and i accepted to be his disciple. he made my life a hell.
> > thank u for any help
> > skizo
>
> Hi Azo, I received your plea for help. Since you've left the Tenth Donkey, in view of the seriousness of your message, I've posted a link here at that group.
>
> You sound pretty scared by all this, but try to think of it as just a temporary illusion which you can handle, rather than something real and menacing. A real, benevolent God would not call you a pile of shit or threaten to make your life hell. That sounds more like a critical, schismatic part of oneself. And that can be sorted out.
>
> I'm sure you know what to do, but I'd advise you to try and ensure that you get plenty of sleep, if you can; make sure that you eat well, and make an effort to calm down and ground yourself. A friend once advised that I eat fish as this would help ground me when I was going through a similar episode.
>
> Do you have access to a doctor or does your "status" in the country prevent this? You may need something to help keep you calm and help you get to sleep ... and (I hope you don't take offence) ... you might benefit from an anti-psychotic.
>
> My thoughts and sympathies are with you, Azo. Please stay with this group, rather than quitting and dropping off your friends' radar screens.
>
> Take care,
> eric.
>

---- Original message ----
>Date:�� Sat, 12 Dec 2009 12:48:47 -0000
>From:�� "azo64000" <azo64000@...>
>Subject:�� [caravansarai] help from my friends
>To:�� caravansarai@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>   salom alikum all
>   guys this be freakin seious-;) i doed not sleep all
>   night last night. that socky goat in the sky (allah)
>   spended all night singing into me ear in a loud
>   horrible voice: shalalalalallaaaaaaaaaaaaala
>   shashalalaaala.
>   why ? coz i telled him i be not going to do the
>   dirty work for him anymore. i upseted many people
>   and i do not like that.
>   and he sayed to me: listen to me u piece of s... u
>   do what i tell u to do or i make yur life a hell .
>   and i sayed to him : no. and he sayed to me: i will
>   make yur night tonite a hell. and he doed indeed.
>
>   tell me me friends what i be going to do?
>   i want to stop posting here or anywhere and have a
>   quiet life but he telled me i be posting here and i
>   have to say what he wants me to say.
>   wel thanks heaven tomorrow i will be sunday and on
>   sundays he be asleep all day so i can hav a day of
>   piss.
>   i have not telled u that i got banned from youtube
>   and that i haved over sixty accounts closed. he
>   tells me to put a picture of the tomb of momo on
>   account background and then the muzzies flag it (
>   and they be freakin right to do so coz it be too
>   offensive even to BNP guys-;)))). hey i am serious.
>   so please guys if u caned help me let me know.
>   will, u caned help me by banning me from this group
>   although as soon as i be banned from one site he(the
>   old socky goat) tell me to go to another. there is
>   no end.
>   i really regert the day i met him some thrity years
>   ago and i accepted to be his disciple. he made my
>   life a hell.
>   thank u for any help
>   skizo
>


:) you seem to manage well on your own... but what help you
seek? what do you need? really... in any case,


if you want to fly, my friend
take yourself lightly.
be like dust...
make friends with the wind
allow it
to carry you
wherever
it
wills


yosy

strange, i was debating whether to reply to this discussion and suddenly i had
this really intense sense of de ja vu. it went on much longer than usual. not
sure what that means.

in any case, i'm not sure how seriously to take this message-- after all, azo is
a humorist who likes to exaggerate and there are big winking smiley faces all
over the place here!

but getting to the point-- i think my position is pretty clear:

there is a difference between a) a personal compulsion that comes out of a need
for self-expression, a strong desire for change and from a frustration with the
way things are, and b)the 'objective' (in the Gurdjieffian sense) knowledge of
what should be done, when, how, and under what circumstances and conditions--
and the capacity to make it happen 'in the world'. To the degree that the former
interferes with the latter, there is a better chance of going astray and being
less effective.

which doesn't mean i don't understand the need for personal expression and how
important it is-- sometimes it seems even more important than any 'higher
knowledge'. sometimes we're so outraged by things as they are that we would
rather die than keep our outrage supressed. we feel that we're justified, and
maybe we are, in a sense, but are we really dealing with an understanding of a
deeper level of reality, or are we just operating according to our own desires
and assumptions? and will the latter really get us anywhere? this doesn't just
apply to azo, but to everyone, including myself and Eric and all the rest.

  to paraphrase Shah, we may want the train and everyone on it to go faster-- and
we all think we can go faster on our own and if we could direct the train
ourselves-- but this world is a moving train and it has its own path and we're
not allowed to leave it, neglect it or destroy it!

all we can do is to try our best to remove-- and support others in removing--
the unnecessary obstacles that stand in the way of the train's necessary motion.
but we have to remember that the train makes stops and starts, and needs fuel
and drivers and passengers of all kinds, and has to go over all kinds of
terrain-- if not, it wouldn't be much of a train now would it?

imo, we have to learn from both successes and failures-- both our own and other
people's. if someone has found a way to do something that works, we try to use
that method wherever possible-- at least until it shows itself to be totally
useless, or a better method exists. Where there are ways of improving the
method, we try to innovate and make improvements. we constantly monitor what we
are doing and what the results are, a process of reciprocal feedback. but if we
get to the point-- for whatever reason--  where we can't adapt or change
according to circumstances, and keep doing the same repetitive and useless
things over and over, then no learning and no progress can happen, and the
natural instinct for growth and development will turn into a quagmire, like the
stream that refused to let the wind carry it over the desert.





--- In caravansarai@yahoogroups.com, "erictwose" <eric.twose@...> wrote:
>
> --- In caravansarai@yahoogroups.com, "azo64000" <azo64000@> wrote:
> >
> > salom alikum all
> > guys this be freakin seious-;) i doed not sleep all night last night. that
socky goat in the sky (allah) spended all night singing into me ear in a loud
horrible voice: shalalalalallaaaaaaaaaaaaala shashalalaaala.
> > why ? coz i telled him i be not going to do the dirty work for him anymore.
i upseted many people and i do not like that.
> > and he sayed to me: listen to me u piece of s... u do what i tell u to do or
i make yur life a hell . and i sayed to him : no. and he sayed to me: i will
make yur night tonite a hell. and he doed indeed.
> >
> > tell me me friends what i be going to do?
> > i want to stop posting here or anywhere and have a quiet life but he telled
me i be posting here and i have to say what he wants me to say.
> > wel thanks heaven tomorrow i will be sunday and on sundays he be asleep all
day so i can hav a day of piss.
> > i have not telled u that i got banned from youtube and that i haved over
sixty accounts closed. he tells me to put a picture of the tomb of momo on
account background and then the muzzies flag it ( and they be freakin right to
do so coz it be too offensive even to BNP guys-;)))). hey i am serious.
> > so please guys if u caned help me let me know.
> > will, u caned help me by banning me from this group although as soon as i be
banned from one site he(the old socky goat) tell me to go to another. there is
no end.
> > i really regert the day i met him some thrity years ago and i accepted to be
his disciple. he made my life a hell.
> > thank u for any help
> > skizo
>
> Hi Azo, I received your plea for help. Since you've left the Tenth Donkey, in
view of the seriousness of your message, I've posted a link here at that group.
>
> You sound pretty scared by all this, but try to think of it as just a
temporary illusion which you can handle, rather than something real and
menacing. A real, benevolent God would not call you a pile of shit or threaten
to make your life hell. That sounds more like a critical, schismatic  part of
oneself. And that can be sorted out.
>
> I'm sure you know what to do, but I'd advise you to try and ensure that you
get plenty of sleep, if you can; make sure that you eat well, and make an effort
to calm down and ground yourself. A friend once advised that I eat fish as this
would help ground me when I was going through a similar episode.
>
> Do you have access to a doctor or does your "status" in the country prevent
this? You may need something to help keep you calm and help you get to sleep ...
and (I hope you don't take offence) ... you might benefit from an
anti-psychotic.
>
> My thoughts and sympathies are with you, Azo. Please stay with this group,
rather than quitting and dropping off your friends' radar screens.
>
> Take care,
> eric.
>

IT is neither this, nor that.</HTML>

--- In caravansarai@yahoogroups.com, "azo64000" <azo64000@...> wrote:
>
> salom alikum all
> guys this be freakin seious-;) i doed not sleep all night last night. that
socky goat in the sky (allah) spended all night singing into me ear in a loud
horrible voice: shalalalalallaaaaaaaaaaaaala shashalalaaala.
> why ? coz i telled him i be not going to do the dirty work for him anymore. i
upseted many people and i do not like that.
> and he sayed to me: listen to me u piece of s... u do what i tell u to do or i
make yur life a hell . and i sayed to him : no. and he sayed to me: i will make
yur night tonite a hell. and he doed indeed.
>
> tell me me friends what i be going to do?
> i want to stop posting here or anywhere and have a quiet life but he telled me
i be posting here and i have to say what he wants me to say.
> wel thanks heaven tomorrow i will be sunday and on sundays he be asleep all
day so i can hav a day of piss.
> i have not telled u that i got banned from youtube and that i haved over sixty
accounts closed. he tells me to put a picture of the tomb of momo on account
background and then the muzzies flag it ( and they be freakin right to do so coz
it be too offensive even to BNP guys-;)))). hey i am serious.
> so please guys if u caned help me let me know.
> will, u caned help me by banning me from this group although as soon as i be
banned from one site he(the old socky goat) tell me to go to another. there is
no end.
> i really regert the day i met him some thrity years ago and i accepted to be
his disciple. he made my life a hell.
> thank u for any help
> skizo

Hi Azo, I received your plea for help. Since you've left the Tenth Donkey, in
view of the seriousness of your message, I've posted a link here at that group.

You sound pretty scared by all this, but try to think of it as just a temporary
illusion which you can handle, rather than something real and menacing. A real,
benevolent God would not call you a pile of shit or threaten to make your life
hell. That sounds more like a critical, schismatic  part of oneself. And that
can be sorted out.

I'm sure you know what to do, but I'd advise you to try and ensure that you get
plenty of sleep, if you can; make sure that you eat well, and make an effort to
calm down and ground yourself. A friend once advised that I eat fish as this
would help ground me when I was going through a similar episode.

Do you have access to a doctor or does your "status" in the country prevent
this? You may need something to help keep you calm and help you get to sleep ...
and (I hope you don't take offence) ... you might benefit from an
anti-psychotic.

My thoughts and sympathies are with you, Azo. Please stay with this group,
rather than quitting and dropping off your friends' radar screens.

Take care,
eric.

salom alikum all
guys this be freakin seious-;) i doed not sleep all night last night. that socky
goat in the sky (allah) spended all night singing into me ear in a loud horrible
voice: shalalalalallaaaaaaaaaaaaala shashalalaaala.
why ? coz i telled him i be not going to do the dirty work for him anymore. i
upseted many people and i do not like that.
and he sayed to me: listen to me u piece of s... u do what i tell u to do or i
make yur life a hell . and i sayed to him : no. and he sayed to me: i will make
yur night tonite a hell. and he doed indeed.

tell me me friends what i be going to do?
i want to stop posting here or anywhere and have a quiet life but he telled me i
be posting here and i have to say what he wants me to say.
wel thanks heaven tomorrow i will be sunday and on sundays he be asleep all day
so i can hav a day of piss.
i have not telled u that i got banned from youtube and that i haved over sixty
accounts closed. he tells me to put a picture of the tomb of momo on account
background and then the muzzies flag it ( and they be freakin right to do so coz
it be too offensive even to BNP guys-;)))). hey i am serious.
so please guys if u caned help me let me know.
will, u caned help me by banning me from this group although as soon as i be
banned from one site he(the old socky goat) tell me to go to another. there is
no end.
i really regert the day i met him some thrity years ago and i accepted to be his
disciple. he made my life a hell.
thank u for any help
skizo

:) friends, i just finished reading (in polish translation!)
a modern fantasy(?) book a friend brought me, by a young
french writer named romain sardou. the book title is "L'Eclat
de Dieu" (The Spark of God), deals a/o with the concept of
time, and it contains many sufi, cabalic etc hints. anyone
familiar with the author and/or thw work? quite a daring kid,
and writes well...

shabbat shalom and best regards,

in love
yosy

--- In caravansarai@yahoogroups.com, "Eric T" <eric.twose@...> wrote:

> In a society where folk live to 80, 90, 100, the chronic ageism and the
attendant, negative thoughts that one is now "over the hill", has to give,
surely?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6quSg3E3brE&feature=player_embedded

J.

---- Original message ----
>Date:   Thu, 10 Dec 2009 10:04:08 -0000
>From:   "Eric T" <eric.twose@...>
>Subject:   Re: [caravansarai] To Will (was To Azo (was TO
ERIC))
>To:   <caravansarai@yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>
>   Cheers, Will.
>
>   I'm just feeling a little fragile at the moment,
>   having done something a few weeks back that I
>   thought was me being responsible*, but was actually
>   at least in part me allowing my commanding self to
>   get the better of me. This has had unfortunate
>   consequences, not just for me but for others, that I
>   should have foreseen, and has been "haunting" me and
>   plaguing my conscience for some time.
>
>   With good wishes,
>   eric.
>
>   *Regarding "HF", if you need to know.
>
>


:) commanding self, huh? this is some stubborn donkey...



  I am,
Self identity
Is a donkey.
Mind, name, form, feelings
Emotions, cravings, hopes and fears
All included… merely an ass.
We all are donkeys, whether considered most intelligent
And revered as such
Or regarded as the dumbest of the dumb…
No different from plain asses –
Likewise subject to birth, growth, decay and death.
But the remember, friend,
Lucky seeker after truth,
That the master, the all pervading
Nameless and impersonal self
Is boundless and beyond time.
Peerless ghost rider
Directing and guiding all donkeys,
The herd owner and sustainer
Is the same resplendent one and only,
Birth-less and deathless reality.
There is no other god. So
Wake up from dreams of selfhood, oh fortunate!
Friend of bright prospects,
Enjoy the frolics
Of the dead donkey –
While there is time.


wishing your ass a fast ad full recovery, dear friend. keep
cultivating your inner smile, and watch unconcerned whatever
arises...

yosy (another dead donkey)


nnb
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: William F. Zachmann
>     To: caravansarai@yahoogroups.com
>     Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 11:42 PM
>     Subject: RE: [caravansarai] To Will (was To Azo
>     (was TO ERIC))
>
>
>     <lol>  You remind me here, Eric, of something
>     Idries Shah said somewhere along the line about
>     what one is to make of it when a speaker on the
>     podium stands up and denounces, say, people who
>     abuse their mothers and someone at the back of the
>     crowd jumps up and starts shouting “Why are you
>     always picking on me!”
>
>     In fact, I considered putting that post of mine in
>     the first person plural since, clearly, I too
>     belong to the object class of “moderators of
>     online discussion groups” and have my own
>     commanding self and control freak tendencies to
>     deal with, too.  But after thinking about it a
>     bit, I decided to leave it in third person plural
>     since I figured I could just as readily include
>     myself that way, too.  In any case, it was no more
>     about you than it was about me (and many others).
>
>     FWIW, I would not hesitate to delete a post or ban
>     someone if I really were convinced that it was
>     objectively desirable to do so.  I just have had
>     no occasions where I had any such conviction.  I
>     will freely confess that I have had MANY occasions
>     on which I was sorely tempted to take such action,
>     but in thinking it over it became evident to me
>     that the source of my temptation was not any
>     objective requirement of the situation, but merely
>     that I happened to find someone tedious or
>     annoying or the like.
>
>     In fact I *do* delete some posts and ban some
>     people – whenever it is quite clear that someone
>     has joined solely for the purpose of posting
>     obvious SPAM clearly unrelated to the discussion
>     here.  Self promoting references to web sites,
>     books, or whatever that are at all plausibly
>     related to the discussion here I normally leave
>     unmolested.  But folks who join solely to post
>     links to their Viagra or XXX-rated web cam sites
>     are deleted as soon as they are identified.  Other
>     than that, though, I do not ordinarily remove
>     posts or people.
>
>     That really is not a matter of any sort of
>     religion, though.  It is based on the firm
>     conviction, confirmed by several decades’
>     experience in moderating all sorts of online
>     discussion groups, that trying to control what
>     people say does not create an optimal climate for
>     useful, interesting, and thoughtful discussion
>     among people who are really interested in
>     something.  But then, as Idries Shah was fond of
>     saying, “You pays your money and you takes your
>     pick.”
>
>     *;-)
>
>     From: caravansarai@yahoogroups.com
>     [mailto:caravansarai@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
>     erictwose
>     Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 12:46 PM
>     To: caravansarai@yahoogroups.com
>     Subject: [caravansarai] To Will (was To Azo (was
>     TO ERIC))
>
>
>
>     William dearest,
>
>     I can't for the life of me understand how you --
>     as such an exemplary and above all UNASSUMING SOUL
>     -- can keep missing that one key element in your
>     postings here, even though it's on the end of your
>     very nose.
>
>     As I said elsewhere, let's try to keep this thing
>     in proportion, rather than making Azo a martyr of
>     free speech and casting me in the role of demon. I
>     deleted ONE post, one out of a number of previous
>     posts, and I did say that Azo has choices.
>     alt.sufi is a free for all; caravansarai is
>     RELIGIOUSLY unmoderated; there are 1001 other
>     topics to which Azo could usefully contribute at
>     the Tenth Donkey and 1001 other groups in which he
>     could usefully contribute.
>
>     Would any other responsible outfit like google,
>     yahoo, myspace, facebook or twitter have acted
>     otherwise to a breach of their terms and
>     conditions? If you doubt my word, post something
>     about bearded muzzies breeding like rats and
>     suggest voting for the BNP and see what response
>     you get :)
>
>     That said, it's nothing to get one's knickers in a
>     knot over.
>
>     With good wishes,
>     eric.
>
>     --- In caravansarai@yahoogroups.com, "William F.
>     Zachmann" <wfz@...> wrote:
>     >
>     > It is interesting to note how moderating a
>     discussion group offers opportunities for the
>     moderator to observe his or her own commanding
>     self in action - not, of course, that many of them
>     actually take advantage of such opportunities. It
>     is, after all, so very much easier simply to feel,
>     self-righteously, that one is protecting 'the
>     group' from rude or disruptive influences and so
>     forth. But then too, of course, there are the
>     outright control freaks . . .
>     >
>     > *;-)
>     >
>     > From: caravansarai@yahoogroups.com
>     [mailto:caravansarai@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
>     azo64000
>     > Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 11:33 AM
>     > To: caravansarai@yahoogroups.com
>     > Subject: [caravansarai] TO ERIC
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > hi eric
>     > as i am no longer a member of yur group i reply
>     to u in this group(hope friend Will dont mind).
>     > this is wat u said:
>     > ----
>     > With respect, Kalimah, I don't think that any of
>     us, let alone Azo, would benefit if the far-right
>     BNP continue to make in-roads into British and
>     European politics. See:
>     >
>     >
>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party
>     >
>     > And how much different is it to talk of "bearded
>     Muzzies" who "breed like rats" than, say, "Yids",
>     "Niggers" or "Spicks"? He could always reserve
>     such talk for groups like caravansarai which have
>     a more laid back or hands-off approach to
>     moderation.......
>     > ---end of quote---
>     > eric u playing 'le mauvais diable' here (as the
>     french wud say). when taking these words out of
>     their original con-text they do seem offensive.
>     but i never used the word momo or muzzy as
>     offensive words but as rather joky and short-cut
>     ones, in the same way one may say brit, jap,
>     frenchy, yank, ozzy, prods, cathos etc...to
>     muslims as far as i know the word muzzy aint
>     offensive and it does not have offensive
>     connotations. it is jusut a short form of muzlim.
>     i know some fascists use it as a derogatory term
>     but that is their call. i have cousins who are
>     muslims and i call them muzzies and they find it
>     rather funny.
>     > as to BNP u know well that i do consider them as
>     a racist movement but when it commes to
>     immigration issues they do make sense and that is
>     why many brits vote for them. these brits are not
>     racists they just fed up of hypcrisy of the main
>     stream parties.
>     > as to legal issues there are still crtics and
>     even offenders of islam on the media and i didnt
>     see any among of them who is being prosecuted: i
>     already mentioned nonnie darwish the head of the
>     ex muslims council applauding last week the swiss
>     vote about the minarets. dr hitchings never tire
>     of saying it in public that islam is not just a
>     religion but a dangerous fascist sect. and so prof
>     dawkins, comedian bill maher , irsa ali, salman
>     rushdie and all free-honest thinkers. (u just hav
>     to read the koran and the hadiths if u wanna know
>     islam ) . if u want the links i sent them to u.
>     > u see eric u always use this legal issue to
>     justifiy yur censorship actions.
>     > u did the same last year when u accused me of
>     slandering hossayn nasr. instead of writing to me
>     and asking for more explanations. u went straight
>     in deleting my post.
>     > i felt a sense of unwelcome as soon i rejoined
>     it as some of islamically clut-minded friends stop
>     posting. i know i make them and you uncofortable
>     and i even thought as soon as i joined..
>     > the reason i post in yur group is that it is
>     much quiter and more favourable to discussions
>     than this one where it seems to me to be a crowded
>     room where every body toking but none is
>     hearing-:)
>     > to friend yosi : i am not running from critique
>     my friend but from censorship only god know what
>     sacrifices i made to keep me a free person. i
>     welcomed critiks of kalima and martin(even though
>     i even find his bolloks term amusing-:)). if i
>     have isulted a memeber yes . i am against getting
>     personal and insulting members( though i did
>     behave so in alt.sufi as a reaction to personla
>     insults to myself) but in erci's i never being
>     rude to anyone and if my critiks of islam or other
>     sect is interpreted as personal i can do nothing
>     about it-:)
>     > to eric i invite u to watch the videos of a
>     friend a mine- who is a true brit and yet not
>     racist in anyway- what he says about the potential
>     dangers of islam in britain:
>     > http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell
>     > skizo sickazo
>     >

In a message dated 12/10/09 1:49:18 PM, jayen466@... writes:

<<  I for one am optimistic.
  >>

Now we're getting somewhere.

I've been fermenting some dates for just such an occasion, here pass them
around. I'm sure we can find a crust of bread somewhere amongst this august
company to round out the meal.

As they used to say a long time ago in a land not so far away,

The king is dead, long live the King.

Which was translated in another mythical kingdom into:

Keep on Truckin'

AMB,
obo</HTML>

----- Original Message -----

From: azo64000

To: caravansarai@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 7:20 PM

Subject: [caravansarai] Re: To JAY (was To Azo (was TO ERIC))

 

well said jay. i dont need to feel guilty for what i posted on his group and eric does need to feel guilty for deleting my post.
everyone has to act according to what he thinks it is right and then just hope for the best.
life is very short and we shuld concentrate more on postive things to fill what is left of it....
regards
skizo

--- In caravansarai@yahoogroups.com, "jayen466" <jayen466@...> wrote:
>
> --- In caravansarai@yahoogroups.com, "Eric T" <eric.twose@> wrote:
> >
> > Cheers, Will.
> >
> > I'm just feeling a little fragile at the moment, having done something a few weeks back that I thought was me being responsible*, but was actually at least in part me allowing my commanding self to get the better of me. This has had unfortunate consequences, not just for me but for others, that I should have foreseen, and has been "haunting" me and plaguing my conscience for some time.
> >
> > With good wishes,
> > eric.
> >
> > *Regarding "HF", if you need to know.
>
>
> Dear Eric,
>
> Please don't knock yourself over this. I for one still believe what you did *was* responsible, entirely appropriate and an important thing for you (you in particular) to have done. Any fall-out is due to my stubbornness, and that of an acquaintance of ours, whose choices had much more to do with this than anything you or I did.
>
> What happened, regardless of how it may look now, may well prove in the long run to have been for the best of all concerned. While there is no guarantee for this, I for one am optimistic.
>
> J.
>

Take care of yurself bro and as i said to jay life is too short and especially
at our age we are going dwonhill so fast-:)
sorry i hope i dont depress u by this but that is the way i see it and i try to
replace every bad feeling with a good one so that when i am on my deatn bed  i
wudnt say to meself :'' wat a waste of time i was?-;)''
and as wise friend obo one advised me:''make sure u dont breath in waste '' or
someting like that i forgot his exact words.
hav a good weekend pal.
skizo


--- In caravansarai@yahoogroups.com, "Eric T" <eric.twose@...> wrote:
>
> Many thanks, Azo, Will and Jayen. Your good sense and feeling is appreciated.
>
> I must admit that I am personally not overly-enamoured with what has happened
and is still happening, nominally in the name of religion, but hardly in its
spirit.
>
> I guess the only thing that keeps me reined-in, Azo, is the fact that I
haven't done a much better job myself, so I can sympathize with others, at least
as individuals, to a certain extent -- and with obvious exceptions which have or
who have pretty much gone beyond the pale.
>
> With good wishes,
> eric.
>
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: azo64000
>   To: caravansarai@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 7:03 PM
>   Subject: [caravansarai] Re: TO ERIC
>
>
>
>   dear eric as i said my statements are not more contrOversial than ibn
Khaldun's whom portrait of blacks johnny just mentioned and of Arabs, he says in
his muqaddima: "they are people who plunder and cause damage." The
>   civilizations
>   they conquer are "wiped out." "Places that succumb to the Arabs are
>   quickly
>   ruined." "The reason for this is that [the Arabs] are a savage nation,
>   fully
>   accustomed to savagery." "Savagery has become their character and
>   nature.
>   They enjoy it because it means freedom from authority and no
>   subservience to
>   leadership. Such a natural disposition is the negation and antithesis
>   of
>   civilization."
>
>   Again, "because of their savagery, the Arabs are least willing of
>   nations to
>   subordinate themselves to each other, as they are proud, ambitious,
>   and
>   eager to be the leader."
>
>   Any bellicose people are well practiced in deception; as for the
>   Arabs,
>   however, one must add they are unequalled in the art of ingratiation. ''
>
>   END OF IBN LKHALDOUN QUOTES
>
>   and yet shah tells us he was a sufi and a great scientist.
>
>   eric i hav no problems that u dont like what i post and that u deleted my
post however what pissed off is that after we put everything tobed and left u
started quoting my words out of con-text (bearded muzzies is a direct
translation of a frecn north african term les barbus or les barbouzes and johnny
can tell its exact meaning)
>
>   in order to justify yurself and make yuself feel good and demonize me while
i cant answer u back coz i left the group.
>
>   i am totally resonsible for what i posted and i dont regret it. if u want a
nanny group u cud hav yur nanny group but please leav me out of it once i left
yur group.
>
>   i hope we cud put this to bed once for all and i really do like u even
though we dont share the same outlook on many things.
>
>   so just relax my friend , hav a break hav, a kitkat-:) they say choc is a
mood booster. am having right now
>
>   a hot choclolate with brandy and irish cream to commemorate mushkil gusha-:)
>
>   take care bro and rememeber at the end of the day it is all just hot steam
we letting out.
>
>   regards
>
>   skizo
>
>   --- In caravansarai@yahoogroups.com, "Eric T" <eric.twose@> wrote:
>   >
>   > As I said Azo, it's not so much what is said but the way that you say it.
There is a big difference between saying that such-and-such "breed like rabbits"
and "breed like rats", as the latter can be taken to imply that such-and-such
are viewed as vermin, which is the kind of talk that fascists have used against
other minorities in the past and neo-Nazis do to this day.
>   >
>   > Do you really think that Idries Shah would have supported you had you
engaged in public discussion of "so-and-so molesting a nine year old and raping
another ...", suggesting that he was a paedophile and rapist?
>   >
>   > Perhaps you might put Will to the test? I'm sure that he'd be only too
happy to offer you space on one of his dedicated web servers and have his and
his company's name associated with such content. Perhaps you could run a guest
article on one of his blogs?
>   >
>   > With good wishes,
>   > eric.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > ----- Original Message -----
>   > From: azo64000
>   > To: caravansarai@yahoogroups.com
>   > Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 6:32 PM
>   > Subject: [caravansarai] Re: To Will (was To Azo (was TO ERIC))
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Eric i dont play the martyr and please stop taking my words out of their
con-text and using them to justify yur obsessive-compulsive control freakism-:)
>   > i said that if i were eligible to vote i wud vote BNP(if do mean it or not
that is my busness-:)). i didnt urge people to go and vote BNP as u seem to
imply. i am free to vote for whoever i want ,right?-:).
>   >
>   > as to bearded muzzied breedin as rats again it was not me who says so
although the paraphrasing(muzzies and rats are). it was what i heard from imams
: emigrate to the west and multiply as fast as u can(if i paraphrased it as
berded muzzies and rats it is just to dramatize a bit the style but the meaning
of the original is not altered).
>   > i read islamic papers , i go to different mosques i watch arabic and other
muzlim channels and everyone thinks that the west shuld become muslim one day
and the best way to do it is through immigration rather than through arms (only
fundamentalists think the west shud be submitted through arms).
>   > in britain here are some exit polls:
>   > to the question ; shud charia law be applied in britain
>   > over 30 percet of british muslims said yes
>   > to the question: is the west morally corrupt and shuld its secularism
repaced with islam about 40 percent say yes.
>   > and note that the muslims asked are anyone of islamic descent that means
many of them are no longer believers.
>   > if only beleivers were asked iam sure it will be over 80 per cent.
>   > please eric dont take this too personal i hav still respect for u as a
person and u are not my enemy in no way but i just do not when u say : yea u cud
discuss politiks and then when u dont like what u read u censor and it was not
only with me u did this . u did threaten intimidate and banned/censored people
in the past.
>   > best wishes
>   > skizo
>   >
>   >
>   > --- In caravansarai@yahoogroups.com, "erictwose" <eric.twose@> wrote:
>   > >
>   > > William dearest,
>   > >
>   > > I can't for the life of me understand how you -- as such an exemplary
and above all UNASSUMING SOUL -- can keep missing that one key element in your
postings here, even though it's on the end of your very nose.
>   > >
>   > > As I said elsewhere, let's try to keep this thing in proportion, rather
than making Azo a martyr of free speech and casting me in the role of demon. I
deleted ONE post, one out of a number of previous posts, and I did say that Azo
has choices. alt.sufi is a free for all; caravansarai is RELIGIOUSLY
unmoderated; there are 1001 other topics to which Azo could usefully contribute
at the Tenth Donkey and 1001 other groups in which he could usefully contribute.
>   > >
>   > > Would any other responsible outfit like google, yahoo, myspace, facebook
or twitter have acted otherwise to a breach of their terms and conditions? If
you doubt my word, post something about bearded muzzies breeding like rats and
suggest voting for the BNP and see what response you get :)
>   > >
>   > > That said, it's nothing to get one's knickers in a knot over.
>   > >
>   > > With good wishes,
>   > > eric.
>   > >
>   > > --- In caravansarai@yahoogroups.com, "William F. Zachmann" <wfz@> wrote:
>   > > >
>   > > > It is interesting to note how moderating a discussion group offers
opportunities for the moderator to observe his or her own commanding self in
action - not, of course, that many of them actually take advantage of such
opportunities. It is, after all, so very much easier simply to feel,
self-righteously, that one is protecting 'the group' from rude or disruptive
influences and so forth. But then too, of course, there are the outright control
freaks . . .
>   > > >
>   > > > *;-)
>   > > >
>   > > > From: caravansarai@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:caravansarai@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of azo64000
>   > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 11:33 AM
>   > > > To: caravansarai@yahoogroups.com
>   > > > Subject: [caravansarai] TO ERIC
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > > hi eric
>   > > > as i am no longer a member of yur group i reply to u in this
group(hope friend Will dont mind).
>   > > > this is wat u said:
>   > > > ----
>   > > > With respect, Kalimah, I don't think that any of us, let alone Azo,
would benefit if the far-right BNP continue to make in-roads into British and
European politics. See:
>   > > >
>   > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party
>   > > >
>   > > > And how much different is it to talk of "bearded Muzzies" who "breed
like rats" than, say, "Yids", "Niggers" or "Spicks"? He could always reserve
such talk for groups like caravansarai which have a more laid back or hands-off
approach to moderation.......
>   > > > ---end of quote---
>   > > > eric u playing 'le mauvais diable' here (as the french wud say). when
taking these words out of their original con-text they do seem offensive. but i
never used the word momo or muzzy as offensive words but as rather joky and
short-cut ones, in the same way one may say brit, jap, frenchy, yank, ozzy,
prods, cathos etc...to muslims as far as i know the word muzzy aint offensive
and it does not have offensive connotations. it is jusut a short form of muzlim.
i know some fascists use it as a derogatory term but that is their call. i have
cousins who are muslims and i call them muzzies and they find it rather funny.
>   > > > as to BNP u know well that i do consider them as a racist movement but
when it commes to immigration issues they do make sense and that is why many
brits vote for them. these brits are not racists they just fed up of hypcrisy of
the main stream parties.
>   > > > as to legal issues there are still crtics and even offenders of islam
on the media and i didnt see any among of them who is being prosecuted: i
already mentioned nonnie darwish the head of the ex muslims council applauding
last week the swiss vote about the minarets. dr hitchings never tire of saying
it in public that islam is not just a religion but a dangerous fascist sect. and
so prof dawkins, comedian bill maher , irsa ali, salman rushdie and all
free-honest thinkers. (u just hav to read the koran and the hadiths if u wanna
know islam ) . if u want the links i sent them to u.
>   > > > u see eric u always use this legal issue to justifiy yur censorship
actions.
>   > > > u did the same last year when u accused me of slandering hossayn nasr.
instead of writing to me and asking for more explanations. u went straight in
deleting my post.
>   > > > i felt a sense of unwelcome as soon i rejoined it as some of
islamically clut-minded friends stop posting. i know i make them and you
uncofortable and i even thought as soon as i joined..
>   > > > the reason i post in yur group is that it is much quiter and more
favourable to discussions than this one where it seems to me to be a crowded
room where every body toking but none is hearing-:)
>   > > > to friend yosi : i am not running from critique my friend but from
censorship only god know what sacrifices i made to keep me a free person. i
welcomed critiks of kalima and martin(even though i even find his bolloks term
amusing-:)). if i have isulted a memeber yes . i am against getting personal and
insulting members( though i did behave so in alt.sufi as a reaction to personla
insults to myself) but in erci's i never being rude to anyone and if my critiks
of islam or other sect is interpreted as personal i can do nothing about it-:)
>   > > > to eric i invite u to watch the videos of a friend a mine- who is a
true brit and yet not racist in anyway- what he says about the potential dangers
of islam in britain:
>   > > > http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell
>   > > > skizo sickazo
>   > > >
>   > >
>   >
>