The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over ten
years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set
up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established
a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat
technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but
the chat goes on... and we want more recruits!
Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've
been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined
today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less
politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion.
We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly...
-----(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown.
The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM
Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time.
There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight
hours after the start time. If no-one is there when you arrive
just wait around a while for the next person to show up!
If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to
do is send your web browser to:
http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/
..And you can connect directly from the NEW new web
interface!
--
William T Goodall
Mail : wtg@...
Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/
"This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG
is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up."
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-----Original Message-----
From: brin-l-bounces@... [mailto:brin-l-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Bruce Bostwick
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 9:28 AM
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
Subject: Re: Fake religion
"Sorry, the page you were looking for in the blog Infinite Complacency does
not exist."
On Dec 1, 2009, at 7:40 PM, William T Goodall wrote:
> http://infinitecomplacency.blogspot.com/2009/11/16-john-lindsteins-law
> suit.html
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed and
hence clamorous to be led to safety by menacing it with an endless series of
hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. - H.L. MENCKEN
_______________________________________________
If you go back to his original post, the link doesn't break there.
And, well, geez, Bruce, *you* should know what to do with a broken link!
Julia
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On Dec 3, 2009, at 2:46 PM, Julia wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: brin-l-bounces@... [mailto:brin-l-
> bounces@...] On
> Behalf Of Bruce Bostwick
> Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 9:28 AM
> To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
> Subject: Re: Fake religion
>
> "Sorry, the page you were looking for in the blog Infinite
> Complacency does
> not exist."
>
> On Dec 1, 2009, at 7:40 PM, William T Goodall wrote:
>
>> http://infinitecomplacency.blogspot.com/2009/11/16-john-lindsteins-
>> law
>> suit.html
>
> The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed
> and
> hence clamorous to be led to safety by menacing it with an endless
> series of
> hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. - H.L. MENCKEN
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> If you go back to his original post, the link doesn't break there.
>
> And, well, geez, Bruce, *you* should know what to do with a broken
> link!
>
> Julia
I should indeed. :\ My apologies ..
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All religions are fake from the perspective of those seeing them from
outside.
No religion is fake from the perspective of its true believers.
Not a very useful metric, all things considered.
(Alignment with the majority perspective isn't much more useful,
either, unfortunately, as in the former case, the majority perspective
is itself somewhat skewed by its participation, in turn, in the
doctrine of the religion in question, if only indirectly. Come back
to Scientology in a millennium or two, and it will have its own
priestly hierarchy and its own diffusion into lay culture, almost
certainly ..)
On Dec 1, 2009, at 7:40 PM, William T Goodall wrote:
> Remind me which one of these is supposed to be the evil phoney
> religion?
>
> http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/12/irish_govt_report_on_catholic.php
>
>
http://infinitecomplacency.blogspot.com/2009/11/16-john-lindsteins-lawsuit.html
>
> Evil is as Evil does Maru
"I don't believe there's a power in the 'verse can stop Kaylee from
bein' cheerful. Sometimes you just wanna duct-tape her mouth and dump
her in the hold for a month." -- Capt. Mal Reynolds, "Serenity"
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On 3 Dec 2009, at 21:11, Bruce Bostwick wrote:
> All religions are fake from the perspective of those seeing them from outside.
>
> No religion is fake from the perspective of its true believers.
>
> Not a very useful metric, all things considered.
I see all 10,000 or so current religions as fake and a religionist sees 9,999 of
them as fake :-)
Almost in Agreement Maru
--
William T Goodall
Mail : wtg@...
Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://blog.williamgoodall.name/
If you listen to a UNIX shell, can you hear the C?
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On Dec 4, 2009, at 8:52 AM, William T Goodall wrote:
> On 3 Dec 2009, at 21:11, Bruce Bostwick wrote:
>
>> All religions are fake from the perspective of those seeing them
>> from outside.
>>
>> No religion is fake from the perspective of its true believers.
>>
>> Not a very useful metric, all things considered.
>
> I see all 10,000 or so current religions as fake and a religionist
> sees 9,999 of them as fake :-)
>
> Almost in Agreement Maru
This is one of the best statements you've ever made.
You sound very much aligned with Leo Tolstoy, who, in his attempts to
promote nonviolent resistance as the truest expression of the
teachings of Christ (which he saw as a philosophy of life, not as the
words of the Son of God, nor the ravings of a lunatic), had nothing,
nothing at all good to say about churches. In fact, he goes as far as
to say that their very existence as churches is in opposition to Christ.
You might like to read his "The Kingdom of God is Within You", in
which he presents his arguments, which have reminded me of yours from
time to time, quite brilliantly.
Dave
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On Dec 4, 2009, at 6:48 PM, Dave Land wrote:
> On Dec 4, 2009, at 8:52 AM, William T Goodall wrote:
>
>> On 3 Dec 2009, at 21:11, Bruce Bostwick wrote:
>>
>>> All religions are fake from the perspective of those seeing them
>>> from outside.
>>>
>>> No religion is fake from the perspective of its true believers.
>>>
>>> Not a very useful metric, all things considered.
>>
>> I see all 10,000 or so current religions as fake and a religionist
>> sees 9,999 of them as fake :-)
>>
>> Almost in Agreement Maru
>
> This is one of the best statements you've ever made.
>
> You sound very much aligned with Leo Tolstoy, who, in his attempts
> to promote nonviolent resistance as the truest expression of the
> teachings of Christ (which he saw as a philosophy of life, not as
> the words of the Son of God, nor the ravings of a lunatic), had
> nothing, nothing at all good to say about churches. In fact, he goes
> as far as to say that their very existence as churches is in
> opposition to Christ.
>
> You might like to read his "The Kingdom of God is Within You", in
> which he presents his arguments, which have reminded me of yours
> from time to time, quite brilliantly.
>
> Dave
Tolstoy and I seem to agree rather fundamentally on the nature of
those teachings. The portions of the gospels that seem to have been
original writing (even if they *were* written as much as 200 years
after whatever actually happened) very much seem to be about
philosophy of life and a way of living, very much opposed to even the
*idea* of an organized church. I think Christ would have been
completely appalled at what was made of his teachings after the era
of, say, Constantine and the First Council of Nicaea, and my guess is
that the results would have made chasing the moneylenders out of the
temple look mild by comparison.
But I'm a religion of one, and those teachings are but one of my many
resources ..
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The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over ten
years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set
up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established
a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat
technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but
the chat goes on... and we want more recruits!
Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've
been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined
today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less
politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion.
We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly...
-----(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown.
The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM
Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time.
There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight
hours after the start time. If no-one is there when you arrive
just wait around a while for the next person to show up!
If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to
do is send your web browser to:
http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/
..And you can connect directly from the NEW new web
interface!
--
William T Goodall
Mail : wtg@...
Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/
"This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG
is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up."
_______________________________________________
http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
I could use some telescope purchasing advice, if anyone's interested in helping. My astonomy knowledge is quite limited.
My 9 year old son asked for a telescope for Christmas (amongst a million other things). My mom bought him a $37 Toys-R-Us one which I think is likely little better than a toy, so I convinced her to return it and said I'd get him a better one. I'd love to encourage him in this direction and don't want to get something crappy that would turn him off, but at the same time, we've already bought stuff for him, my budget is quite limited, and I don't want to spend several hundreds on a telescope he might quickly lose interest in.
A lot of the advice I found web searching basically says any telescope under $250 is junk and to buy a good set of binoculars instead. But then that's usually followed up by saying that you need to spend at least $100-$150 to find a decent set of binoculars. The problem with that advice is that binoculars likely won't really capture his imagination/interest and that $100 (or maybe $150) is the most I'd want to spend. But then most of this advice seems to be directed against toy/department store refraction telescopes marketed based on "675X" super-magnification, while the ones I'm looking at are reflection-type and make no such claims: the Celestron PowerSeeker 114EQ and PowerSeeker 127EQ are both around $100. The few reviews I could find seem to be a mixed bag of people very delighted and very disappointed, which leaves me wary.
Alternately, the Celestron Firstscope is quite cheap ($50), has some (almost suspiciously) good reviews, and seems aimed at kids. But it's a tabletop model (which seems like it'd be awkward if you'd have to bring a table with you to a park or into your back yard), and a few pictures I've seen of its output view make me wonder if the magnification is at the "why bother" level.
We don't need to spot nebulas, etc - I'd just like him to be able to resolve enough extra detail looking at the moon, stars and other naked-eye objects that he might be motivated to explore further. Is that possible with a scope under $150? Or am I wasting my time? Would $200 or $250 do much better? Is giving him no telescope better than giving him a disappointing one?
On 10/12/2009, at 6:26 PM, Bryon Daly wrote:
> *Delurking*
>
> I could use some telescope purchasing advice, if anyone's interested in
helping. My astonomy knowledge is quite limited.
I'd say you'd be better off getting a decent 'scope for the family and getting
the lad a good book on how to use it as a present. Go to a telescope shop. Don't
get one from a toy store.
Charlie.
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At 03:59 AM Thursday 12/10/2009, Charlie Bell wrote:
>On 10/12/2009, at 6:26 PM, Bryon Daly wrote:
>
> > *Delurking*
> >
> > I could use some telescope purchasing advice, if anyone's
> interested in helping. My astonomy knowledge is quite limited.
Try these resources from the web sites of _Astronomy_ and _Sky and
Telescope_ magazines for some information.
Astronomy.com - How to buy your first telescope -
http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&id=8038
SkyandTelescope.com - Homepage Equipment - Low-Cost Starter Scopes -
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/equipment/home/69745547.html
(I believe both have links to follow for more info.)
Also, if you can find an amateur astronomy group in your area,
contact them. (I believe the one here locally covered "buying a
first 'scope for kids" last month at the November meeting.) They can
probably give you lots of advice, perhaps even give you a chance to
check out some 'scopes that they own, and tell you if there's any
good place to go locally to get one (as well as where to avoid!) or
if you'd be better off ordering one.
>I'd say you'd be better off getting a decent 'scope for the family
>and getting the lad a good book on how to use it as a present. Go to
>a telescope shop.
Or a mail order place which specializes, frex
http://www.telescope.com/control/main/.
(Despite their seeming arrogance in claiming that domain name ;) ,
I've had good luck ordering stuff from them since the early 80s.)
>Don't get one from a toy store.
Or a department store or a "big-box" store, unless you've checked it
out elsewhere and found you can get a better price and good guarantee
(return or service) from there, which is unlikely. (Several years
ago I did buy one of those "Magnifies 450 Times!" ones from Wal-Mart
that was on sale after Christmas to use in the classroom to
demonstrate some of the basic principles of a telescope, and it
turned out to be somewhat better than I expected (though I had more
sense to expect to see anything at 450x!), but I still probably
wouldn't recommend one like that for anyone getting one for
themselves or a kid, esp. one who has shown any serious interest in
astronomy, or if you hope to plant such an interest . . . )
. . . ronn! :)
Ronn Blankenship
Sometime Adjunct Instructor of Astronomy/Planetary Science
University of Montevallo
Montevallo, AL
Disclaimer: Unless specifically stated otherwise, any opinions
contained herein are the personal opinions of the author and do not
represent the official position of the University of Montevallo.
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On Dec 10, 2009, at 3:59 AM, Charlie Bell wrote:
> On 10/12/2009, at 6:26 PM, Bryon Daly wrote:
>
>> *Delurking*
>>
>> I could use some telescope purchasing advice, if anyone's
>> interested in helping. My astonomy knowledge is quite limited.
>
> I'd say you'd be better off getting a decent 'scope for the family
> and getting the lad a good book on how to use it as a present. Go to
> a telescope shop. Don't get one from a toy store.
I was rather taken with this one when it first hit the market, and
have been wanting one ever since:
http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp?pn=3005001&bhcd2=1260492140
It's not a high-end machine with a computerized equatorial mount, but
it's quite a decent scope even considering its funky late-70's body
design. At least good enough for entertaining and engaging family
astronomy. There was a thriving secondhand market in these old
Astroscans before Edmund finally got wise and started making them again.
Yes, my exposure to telescopes was with one of the cheap toy-store
Newtonians. It was so unbelievably frustrating to use that I gave up
on it after a few weeks. (Although the eyepieces came in handy when I
was able to tape one onto an old microscope objective I had lying
around and make a surprisingly nice 100x+ handheld microscope, which I
might still have somewhere.)
With the Barlow and maybe a set of Ha and CaK solar aperture filters,
you could have quite a lot of fun with one of these...
"We're going to shape the future of jurisprudence, the laws that
sustain our whole society. Or shove somebody in there to strike down
those God-awful excuses for laws the Republicans are passing." -- Toby
Ziegler
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This was exactly the kind of article I had been looking for. The Orion 3" reflector was out of stock, but the slightly pricier Orion 70mm refractor just squeaks under the budget and was able to get spouse approval, so that's the one I ordered.
A nicer, "family" telescope might be a good option in the future if any of our kids pick up on it, but right now besides budget, my wife is convinced that a delicate instrument like a telescope won't last long around our 3 kids (age 9 & under).
Thanks Charlie, Ronn & Bruce for your help/advice!
The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over ten
years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set
up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established
a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat
technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but
the chat goes on... and we want more recruits!
Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've
been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined
today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less
politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion.
We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly...
-----(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown.
The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM
Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time.
There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight
hours after the start time. If no-one is there when you arrive
just wait around a while for the next person to show up!
If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to
do is send your web browser to:
http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/
..And you can connect directly from the NEW new web
interface!
--
William T Goodall
Mail : wtg@...
Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/
"This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG
is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up."
_______________________________________________
http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
On Dec 16, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Bryon Daly wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:29 PM, Warren Ockrassa <warren@...>
wrote:
> I really enjoyed this, but can't share it with my colleagues, since they
wouldn't get either reference.
>
> Sometimes it's really a pain in the ass to be a programmer and English major
working in a PR department as the graphics guy.
>
> http://www.bobhobbs.com/files/kr_lovecraft.html
>
> "Their croaking, baying voices called out in the hideous language of the Old
Ones: "
>
> awesome.
I suppose that would mean Assembly is the language of the Outer Gods. But what
of FORTRAN?
--
Warren Ockrassa | @waxis
Blog | http://indigestible.nightwares.com/
Books | http://books.nightwares.com/
Web | http://www.nightwares.com/
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Warren Ockrassa wrote:
> I really enjoyed this, but can't share it with my colleagues, since they
wouldn't get either reference.
>
> Sometimes it's really a pain in the ass to be a programmer and English major
working in a PR department as the graphics guy.
>
> http://www.bobhobbs.com/files/kr_lovecraft.html
That is nice. I'm sure I can find some people
who'll appreciate both references, and not just
say that the followers of Cthuhlu should use
different variable names for clarity.
---David
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Warren Ockrassa wrote:
>
> I really enjoyed this, but can't share it with my colleagues, since
> they wouldn't get either reference.
>
> Sometimes it's really a pain in the ass to be a programmer and
> English major working in a PR department as the graphics guy.
>
> http://www.bobhobbs.com/files/kr_lovecraft.html
>
<joke critic>
The code is wrong:
void Cthulhu
(int Ia) {
if (Ia/10)
Cthulhu (IA/10);
putchar // ftagn!
(Ia % 10 + '0');
} // neblod zin!
// is a comment in C++ and, by the arcane magic known as backwards
compatibility, crept into C compilers
</joke critic>
Alberto Monteiro, Cthulhu worshipper, C programmer and utterly insane,
having failing the sanity check many times
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Alberto Monteiro wrote:
> Warren Ockrassa wrote:
>> I really enjoyed this, but can't share it with my colleagues, since
>> they wouldn't get either reference.
>>
>> Sometimes it's really a pain in the ass to be a programmer and
>> English major working in a PR department as the graphics guy.
>>
>> http://www.bobhobbs.com/files/kr_lovecraft.html
>>
> <joke critic>
> The code is wrong:
>
> void Cthulhu
> (int Ia) {
> if (Ia/10)
> Cthulhu (IA/10);
> putchar // ftagn!
> (Ia % 10 + '0');
> } // neblod zin!
>
> // is a comment in C++ and, by the arcane magic known as backwards
> compatibility, crept into C compilers
> </joke critic>
Also, there is an undeclared variable (IA != Ia). That was the first
thing I noticed skimming it.
Beyond that, it doesn't seem like proper Kernigan and Ritchie code
because it is not formatted properly in the K&R style... It almost looks
more like GNU code.
--
--Max Battcher--
http://worldmaker.net
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Mars orbiter lines up both Martian moons in one
photo: Scientific American Gallery -
http://www.scientificamerican.com/gallery_directory.cfm?photo_id=8E6C48CB-C925-0\
5E5-86D78678378F19AA&sc=WR_20091217
- - - - -
Astronomy.com - Theorists propose a new way to
shine — and a new kind of star -
http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&id=8895
- - - - -
According to Butler, current indications are that
one-half of nearby stars have a detectable planet
with mass equal to or less than Neptune's.
Astronomy.com - New discoveries suggest low-mass
planets are common around nearby stars (18 December 2009)
http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&id=8893http://tinyurl.com/yfdqxxr
- - - - -
More intriguing is what GJ 1214b might be.
Describing their discovery in the December 17th
Nature, a team led by David Charbonneau and
Zachary Berta (Harvard-Smithsonian Center for
Astrophysics) note that this world has about 6.5
times the mass of Earth (as told from the star's
gravitational wobble) but a full 2.7 times
Earth's diameter (as told by the transit depth).
Those specs don't match those of any other planet
— in our solar system or known elsewhere. It has
almost the same mass as the one other transiting
"super-Earth" discovered so far, Corot-7b, but
the two could hardly be more different in makeup,
judging by their average densities. Whereas
Corot-7b is probably a molten-hot mix of rock and
metal, the average density of GJ 1214b (1.87
g/cm3 is too low for this world to be rocky and too high to be a gas giant.
Instead, it most likely consists almost entirely
of water, overlaid by a massive atmosphere. It's
thus the first specimen of an entire new class of
planet. (OK, OK, it's the second if you count the
wacky, hypothetical place portrayed in the 1995
sci-fi flick Waterworld.) Since it orbits so
closely, GJ 1214b probably has a surface
temperature near 400°F — hot as an oven and
almost certainly devoid of life but still cooler
than any other known transiting planet. The
interior would be much hotter, but at the
extremely high pressures deep inside a planet,
even very hot water exists in solid form: hot ice.
SkyandTelescope.com - News Blog - A Weird,
Wonderful Waterworld? (18 December 2009)
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/community/skyblog/newsblog/79646632.htmlhttp://tinyurl.com/y9ly8ph
- - - - -
It has dawned on theorists in recent years that
other Earth-mass planets may be enormous water
droplets, balls of nitrogen or lumps of iron.
Name your favorite element or compound, and
someone has imagined a planet made of it. The
spectrum of possibilities depends largely on the
ratio of carbon to oxygen. After hydrogen and
helium, these are the most common elements in the
universe, and in an embryonic planetary system
they pair off to create carbon monoxide. The
element that is in slight excess ends up dominating the planet's chemistry.
In our solar system, oxygen dominates. Although
we tend to think of our planet as defined by
carbon, the basis of life, the element is
actually a fairly minor constituent. The
terrestrial planets are made of silicate
minerals, which are oxygen-rich. The outer solar
system abounds in another oxygen-rich compound, water.
Earth-Like Planets May Be Made of Carbon:
Scientific American (18 December 2009)
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-large-lump-of-coalhttp://tinyurl.com/ybmup5k
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