On Nov 27, 2008, at 1:37 PM, Medievalbk@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 11/27/2008 1:39:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> dbrin@... writes:
>
>> We might  even have become gods and simply moved away!
>>
>
> Only if we've paid off the mortgage.
>
> Hmm.....  story idea there somewhere.

More likely that the mortgagee foreclosed on us. Anyway, that seems
to be something like how the story ends in various religions.

Who is the mortgagee, and who the mortgage holder?

Dave

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In a message dated 11/28/2008 4:37:48 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
dmland@... writes:

On Nov  27, 2008, at 1:37 PM, Medievalbk@... wrote:

>
> In a  message dated 11/27/2008 1:39:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
>  dbrin@... writes:
>
>> We might  even have  become gods and simply moved away!
>>
>
> Only if we've  paid off the mortgage.
>
> Hmm.....  story idea there  somewhere.

More likely that the mortgagee foreclosed on us. Anyway,  that seems
to be something like how the story ends in various  religions.

Who is the mortgagee, and who the mortgage  holder?

Dave




In Uplift, The Progenitors and our long lost Patrons.

(Beware of Rothen with carpetbags and long thin
mustaches.)

I'm now going to go hide in the belly of a whale fighting a
giant squid.

Vilyehm
**************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW
AOL.com.
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002)
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Folks,

Greed-addled shoppers crushed to death a temporary worker who was
trying to open the doors for Black Friday sales.

http://budurl.com/jezv

Fscking people:

      Kimberly Cribbs, who witnessed the stampede, said shoppers were
      acting like "savages."

      "When they were saying they had to leave, that an employee got
      killed, people were yelling 'I've been on line since yesterday
      morning,'" she said. "They kept shopping."

Some on this list have opined that religion is a great poison that
kills. I believe that a good deal of the damage done in the _name_ of
religion is, in fact, done in the name of greed.


Dave

Oh. My. God: MINE, MINE, MINE Maru

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Recently some physicists announced the result of some serious number
crunching that is evidence that the majority of the universes mass is
the interaction between quarks that form protons and neutrons.

Made of gluons that transmit the strong nuclear force this interaction
is the 'quantum foam' of bubbling particles popping in and out of
existence - in theory.

I don't like that theory. Not that I'm even remotely qualified to have
much of an opinion. I find the concept of particles popping in and out
of existence unsatisfying and inelegant. I would only accept it
as true if it's merely a way of expressing something deeper (m-branes
bending in and out of our dimension for instance).

I'd be much happier if the explanation was about more about the shaping
of space than the exchange of particles.

Here's a page summarising the news...

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16095-its-confirmed-matter-is-merely-vacuu\
m-fluctuations.html
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Ooops, that non-sequitor was meant for another list.
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On 28 Nov 2008, at 23:46, Dave Land wrote:

> Folks,
>
> Greed-addled shoppers crushed to death a temporary worker who was
> trying to open the doors for Black Friday sales.
>
> http://budurl.com/jezv
>
> Fscking people:
>
>    Kimberly Cribbs, who witnessed the stampede, said shoppers were
>    acting like "savages."
>
>    "When they were saying they had to leave, that an employee got
>    killed, people were yelling 'I've been on line since yesterday
>    morning,'" she said. "They kept shopping."
>
> Some on this list have opined that religion is a great poison that
> kills. I believe that a good deal of the damage done in the _name_ of
> religion is, in fact, done in the name of greed.
>

Worshippers of Mammon?

Another false religion Maru

-- William T Goodall
Mail : wtg@...
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great
evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. -
Richard Dawkins



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On 29 Nov 2008, at 00:06, Euan Ritchie wrote:

> Ooops, that non-sequitor was meant for another list.
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l


It was perfectly suitable for here actually.

All topics Maru
--
William T Goodall
Mail : wtg@...
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Most people have more than the average number of legs.


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There is another metaphor from fiction that would seem to apply,
   from the Douglas Adams series The Hitchiker’s Guide to the Galaxy.”
   In book #3 (I think), our heroes find themselves on the “C Ark”
   from Golgafrincham, carrying the entire planet’s supply of
   “middle-men, managers, account executives and factotums”
   who had been tricked aboard and sent away by the two-thirds
   of the home population, who, thereupon, ended their long dark
   era and entered a golden age.

It's from Book #2 of the Trilogy (of five books), it's the "Ship B",
and the biggest error of the Golgafrinchans was that they included
in the "Ship B" the telephone cleaners - they civilization was wiped
out by a bug that lived in telephone dirt.

Alberto Monteiro



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On Sat, 29 Nov 2008, Euan Ritchie wrote:

> Ooops, that non-sequitor was meant for another list.

It was fine here, as far as I'm concerned.

 	 Julia

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On Sat, 29 Nov 2008, William T Goodall wrote:

>
> On 28 Nov 2008, at 23:46, Dave Land wrote:
>
>>
>> Some on this list have opined that religion is a great poison that
>> kills. I believe that a good deal of the damage done in the _name_ of
>> religion is, in fact, done in the name of greed.
>>
>
> Worshippers of Mammon?
>
> Another false religion Maru

Yeah.  With some of the religious figures in the US, I think they've
forgotten what Jesus said about not being able to serve two masters, and
they're actually serving mammon.  And fleecing their followers to do so,
and telling them that if they only believe, they'll have great riches on
Earth.  Kinda contradicts the whole "lay up for yourselves treasures in
heaven" thing, all around.

(Matthew chapter 6 contradicts a lot of things that people are doing
*supposedly* in the name of Jesus.)

 	 Julia

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>Dave said
>More likely that the mortgagee foreclosed on us. Anyway,
>that seems to be something like how the story ends in various
>religions. Who is the mortgagee, and who the mortgage holder?
To answer the question about the story or about gods or about mortgagee
who is the mortgagee? Now that is a question about Gods and Dogs
The same word you see because we come from beyond the sun
After our planet blew up in this same galaxy beyond the dog star
And rode the debris like it was a space ship to earth and found these
Cave dwellers Knee Ander Thralls if you will Ice me doing they thang
As we dance and sing and built the great Helios pads mapping stars
Trying to get home and mocking our pass and travels to this terror
Affirma and so it is and so it shall be we are the extra terror arresta
We built the great Peril Amid the unicorn Ah Hiss that dance like
Snakes in the cutie and map the mirrors of the sky and invented
The greater calendars of the MY Ions and eons and so we are the creators
Of worlds before this world and we rose from our rocks and come
To the new beginning where the light travel with the lesser speed than me
And they come to envy us and wish to belong to us and become our
Domesticates so they mortgage they souls for the gold and silver stuff
Which were the remnants of our world and this is how it was to be
We confounded they tongues and created another language for them
And enslaved them to our epic oracles and so it was and so it is
That they stole our ideas as we evolved from their dead planet
To compete with their virus and our germ the sperm made
The journey from the hot rocks now cold and in their water
We found our first home and paid our first mortgages and so
It was and yet shall it be that one come out to evolve from gods to men
Morris J. Peavey, Jr.
>From Ghettonomics to the Kinky Nashun where treat stories are told
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Ghettonomics/Morris-J-Peavey/e/9781410721006
This is a part of the story of the answer to the story about extraterrestrials
But the plot thickens as we move from a world of slaves [and indentures]
To the present day wage slaves where we must assume the cost to bear
Our own huddles built by the great white god fathers founding our
Domesticates dumdomes and marking the paths with their names
And polluting our sanctuaries with places to hide somewhere in cavern
Or should I say oracles of Diana or OH Dell Fire hell fire realities
We got da sum for the ole hum bugs and lady bugs and scarabs
also
Well if you are real travelers meet me half way and see the trick ah trick
Let me show you a mortgagee and I tell you another story about
A homeless veteran and homeless morgagee
There are a million stories in this world about
Lying and taking or property that goes back
To when slaves all lived in bunkhouses like
American soldiers and never owned what we
Got nerves to think we are losing and the world
Is bam bam bozzled again and again run amuck
>From Ah Kinky Nashun where life is lived to
http://mahsstoryy.wordpress.com/category/religion/
The great stories have already been told by the science
And fiction bluffs! Read and comment!
-------------- Original message from Dave Land <dmland@...>:
--------------


> On Nov 27, 2008, at 1:37 PM, Medievalbk@... wrote:
>
> >
> > In a message dated 11/27/2008 1:39:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> > dbrin@... writes:
> >
> >> We might even have become gods and simply moved away!
> >>
> >
> > Only if we've paid off the mortgage.
> >
> > Hmm..... story idea there somewhere.
>
> More likely that the mortgagee foreclosed on us. Anyway, that seems
> to be something like how the story ends in various religions.
>
> Who is the mortgagee, and who the mortgage holder?
>
> Dave
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
_______________________________________________
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On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Dave Land <dmland@...> wrote:

> Greed-addled shoppers crushed to death a temporary worker who was
> trying to open the doors for Black Friday sales.

If the store were open 24/7, then there could be no door-opening stampede.
_______________________________________________
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On Nov 29, 2008, at 7:50 AM, John Williams wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Dave Land <dmland@...> wrote:
>
>> Greed-addled shoppers crushed to death a temporary worker who was
>> trying to open the doors for Black Friday sales.
>
> If the store were open 24/7, then there could be no door-opening
> stampede.

Are you trying to impose your will on Wal-Mart? :-)

Dave

Wal-Mart Greed is made of PEOPLE! IT'S PEOPLE! Maru
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On Nov 29, 2008, at 6:08 AM, Julia Thompson wrote:

> On Sat, 29 Nov 2008, Euan Ritchie wrote:
>
>> Ooops, that non-sequitor was meant for another list.
>
> It was fine here, as far as I'm concerned.

Coordinated nicely with Rob's "Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations"
post of yesterday.

Dave

What Does it Matter Maru

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See,

(Top-posting. So sue me.)

This is why, after all the fussin' and a-feudin', we stay
on this list: to read a post like this one. Thanks, James!

Dave

On Nov 29, 2008, at 6:17 AM, jamespv@... wrote:

>> Dave said
>> More likely that the mortgagee foreclosed on us. Anyway,
>> that seems to be something like how the story ends in various
>> religions. Who is the mortgagee, and who the mortgage holder?
> To answer the question about the story or about gods or about
> mortgagee
> who is the mortgagee? Now that is a question about Gods and Dogs
> The same word you see because we come from beyond the sun
> After our planet blew up in this same galaxy beyond the dog star
> And rode the debris like it was a space ship to earth and found these
> Cave dwellers Knee Ander Thralls if you will Ice me doing they thang
> As we dance and sing and built the great Helios pads mapping stars
> Trying to get home and mocking our pass and travels to this terror
> Affirma and so it is and so it shall be we are the extra terror
> arresta
> We built the great Peril Amid the unicorn Ah Hiss that dance like
> Snakes in the cutie and map the mirrors of the sky and invented
> The greater calendars of the MY Ions and eons and so we are the
> creators
> Of worlds before this world and we rose from our rocks and come
> To the new beginning where the light travel with the lesser speed
> than me
> And they come to envy us and wish to belong to us and become our
> Domesticates so they mortgage they souls for the gold and silver stuff
> Which were the remnants of our world and this is how it was to be
> We confounded they tongues and created another language for them
> And enslaved them to our epic oracles and so it was and so it is
> That they stole our ideas as we evolved from their dead planet
> To compete with their virus and our germ the sperm made
> The journey from the hot rocks now cold and in their water
> We found our first home and paid our first mortgages and so
> It was and yet shall it be that one come out to evolve from gods to
> men
> Morris J. Peavey, Jr.
>> From Ghettonomics to the Kinky Nashun where treat stories are told
> http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Ghettonomics/Morris-J-Peavey/e/9781410721006
> This is a part of the story of the answer to the story about
> extraterrestrials
> But the plot thickens as we move from a world of slaves [and
> indentures]
> To the present day wage slaves where we must assume the cost to bear
> Our own huddles built by the great white god fathers founding our
> Domesticates dumdomes and marking the paths with their names
> And polluting our sanctuaries with places to hide somewhere in cavern
> Or should I say oracles of Diana or OH Dell Fire hell fire realities
> We got da sum for the ole hum bugs and lady bugs and scarabs
> also
> Well if you are real travelers meet me half way and see the trick ah
> trick
> Let me show you a mortgagee and I tell you another story about
> A homeless veteran and homeless morgagee
> There are a million stories in this world about
> Lying and taking or property that goes back
> To when slaves all lived in bunkhouses like
> American soldiers and never owned what we
> Got nerves to think we are losing and the world
> Is bam bam bozzled again and again run amuck
>> From Ah Kinky Nashun where life is lived to
> http://mahsstoryy.wordpress.com/category/religion/
> The great stories have already been told by the science
> And fiction bluffs! Read and comment!
> -------------- Original message from Dave Land <dmland@...>:
> --------------
>
>
>> On Nov 27, 2008, at 1:37 PM, Medievalbk@... wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 11/27/2008 1:39:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard
>>> Time,
>>> dbrin@... writes:
>>>
>>>> We might even have become gods and simply moved away!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Only if we've paid off the mortgage.
>>>
>>> Hmm..... story idea there somewhere.
>>
>> More likely that the mortgagee foreclosed on us. Anyway, that seems
>> to be something like how the story ends in various religions.
>>
>> Who is the mortgagee, and who the mortgage holder?
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

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Original Message:
-----------------
From: Euan Ritchie euan@...
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:56:55 +1300
To: brin-l@...
Subject: Quantum physics


>Recently some physicists announced the result of some serious number
>crunching that is evidence that the majority of the universes mass is
>the interaction between quarks that form protons and neutrons.

Well, that's not really  news, right?  We've known ever since the quark
theory was well established (with the November 1974 revolution in particle
physics), that the pion was a quark-antiquark pair (ups and downs) with a
mass of 140 Mev, while the proton and neutron had 3 quarks (ups and downs)
and a mass close to 940 Mev.

Made of gluons that transmit the strong nuclear force this interaction
is the 'quantum foam' of bubbling particles popping in and out of
existence - in theory.

>I don't like that theory. Not that I'm even remotely qualified to have
>much of an opinion. I find the concept of particles popping in and out
>of existence unsatisfying and inelegant. I would only accept it
>as true if it's merely a way of expressing something deeper (m-branes
>bending in and out of our dimension for instance).

So, I take it you don't even like QED, which has been verified to a zillion
places, because the polarization of the vacume and renormalization?  It's
been around for 50-60 years.  Indeed, virtual particles are so inherent in
quantum theory, I can't think of how to explain the last 80 years of
physics without them.  Maybe Rich knows of such a theory, but I know how
Weinberg talked about the fact that while one can come up with different
theories slighly different than special and general relativity that are
close to right, that one cannot do the same with QM.

You need to remember that the only purpose of physics is to model
observations. Discussion what is real and what isn't is metaphysics.  Thus,
the arguements over the interpretation of QM are metaphysical arguements.

Dan M.

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Original Message:
-----------------
From: Rceeberger rceeberger@...
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:04:20 -0600
To: brin-l@...
Subject: It's confirmed: Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations


http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16095-its-confirmed-matter-is-merely-v
acuum-fluctuations.html

>Matter is built on flaky foundations. Physicists have now confirmed that
>the apparently substantial stuff is actually no more than fluctuations in
>the quantum vacuum.

It's unfortunate that the New Scientist tend to tack on its metaphysical
interpretation onto pretty good science when it reports on new physics.
Perhaps that's the only way to grab laymen, I don't know.

As I mentioned in my last post, this idea in QCD dates back to when I was a
grad student.  The work that was described was pretty good stuff, so I'm
not insulting the physicist.  But, the energy involved in the interaction
between quarks must be mass, so there is nothing earth shattering here.

But, like doing a QED calculation of, say water, and coming up with what is
observed, this massive computational work is well worth doing, and the
first ones to get it done deserve acclaim for getting it done.

Dan M.


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At the risk of re-igniting a certain discussion... here's a great column, I
think, by Paul Krugman, about the current economic situation.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22151

The most relevant bit:

*How did this second great colossal muddle arise? In the aftermath of the
Great Depression, we redesigned the machine so that we did* understand it,
well enough at any rate to avoid big disasters. Banks, the piece of the
system that malfunctioned so badly in the 1930s, were placed under tight
regulation and supported by a strong safety net. Meanwhile, international
movements of capital, which played a disruptive role in the 1930s, were also
limited. The financial system became a little boring but much safer.

*Then things got interesting and dangerous again. Growing international
capital flows set the stage for devastating currency crises in the 1990s and
for a globalized financial crisis in 2008. The growth of the shadow banking
system, without any corresponding extension of regulation, set the stage for
latter-day bank runs on a massive scale. These runs involved frantic mouse
clicks rather than frantic mobs outside locked bank doors, but they were no
less devastating.*
I'll add one thought that keeps coming to me.  If free markets reliably
regulate prices, how the heck did we have such a crazy spike in oil prices
recently?  Surely neither supply nor demand changed much in such a short
time.  And I haven't seen anybody argue that any sort of government
intervention was responsible.  I suspect that what we've seen in oil,
housing and other bubbles is that we have created a system that amplifies
fear and greed.

Nick
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On 11/29/2008 11:50:26 AM, dsummersminet@... wrote:
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Rceeberger rceeberger@...
> Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:04:20 -0600
> To: brin-l@...
> Subject:
> It's confirmed: Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations
>
>
> http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16095-its-confirmed-matter-is-merely-v
> acuum-fluctuations.html
>
> >Matter is built on flaky foundations. Physicists have now confirmed that
> >the apparently substantial stuff is actually no more than fluctuations in
> >the quantum vacuum.
>
> It's
> unfortunate that the New Scientist tend to tack on its metaphysical
> interpretation onto pretty good science when it reports on new physics.
> Perhaps that's the only way to grab laymen, I don't know.
>
> As I mentioned in my last post, this idea in QCD dates back to when I was
> a
> grad student.  The work that was described was pretty good stuff, so I'm
> not insulting the physicist.  But, the energy involved in the interaction
> between quarks must be mass, so there is nothing earth shattering here.
>
> But, like doing a QED calculation of, say water, and coming up with what
> is
> observed, this massive computational work is well worth doing, and the
> first ones to get it done deserve acclaim for getting it done.

Agree with what you are trying to say.
I think that as a magazine, NS is trying to engage lay folk and other
scientists whose expertise doesn't extend very far into QM. For most of us
the metaphysics *is* the important aspect of QM.
It helps us to work out the nature of reality and what it means to exist.

For we, the dummies<G>, it is difficult to hold on to the ideas of
simultaneous existing/non-existing, objects frothing out of nothing, or
matter mostly being not there in any sense that doesn't stagger one's common
sense and bring it to it's knees whimpering and moaning. QM is destructive
to much of the "rules" one has ingrained as soon as one learns to walk, it
just seems to go against all that one sees in day to day life.

The "rules" are of course, oversimplifications based on limited observation
from a limited viewpoint, but for those of us who lack the time to learn the
maths and pour over the datas, the metaphysics are all we have to hold on
to.
We can understand philosophy much easier than maths, they are easier for us
to discuss and digest.

xponent
Paradox Maru
rob

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Arnett" <narnett@...>
To: "Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion" <brin-l@...>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: Wal-Mart is evil, why it must be eradicated


> I'll add one thought that keeps coming to me.  If free markets reliably
> regulate prices, how the heck did we have such a crazy spike in oil prices
> recently?  Surely neither supply nor demand changed much in such a short
> time.  And I haven't seen anybody argue that any sort of government
> intervention was responsible.  I suspect that what we've seen in oil,
> housing and other bubbles is that we have created a system that amplifies
> fear and greed.

I would hold that to be self-evident and supported by market behavior over
the last couple of months.


xponent
The Price Of Oil Today Maru
rob

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On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Rceeberger <rceeberger@...> wrote:

>
> We can understand philosophy much easier than maths, they are easier for us
> to discuss and digest.



Hmmph.  Your father apparently wasn't a philosophy professor.

Nick
J'ai faim, puisque je suis.
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On Nov 29, 2008, at 1:18 PM, Rceeberger wrote:

> Agree with what you are trying to say.
> I think that as a magazine, NS is trying to engage lay folk and other
> scientists whose expertise doesn't extend very far into QM. For most
> of us
> the metaphysics *is* the important aspect of QM.
> It helps us to work out the nature of reality and what it means to
> exist.
>
> For we, the dummies<G>, it is difficult to hold on to the ideas of
> simultaneous existing/non-existing, objects frothing out of nothing,
> or
> matter mostly being not there in any sense that doesn't stagger
> one's common
> sense and bring it to it's knees whimpering and moaning. QM is
> destructive
> to much of the "rules" one has ingrained as soon as one learns to
> walk, it
> just seems to go against all that one sees in day to day life.
>
> The "rules" are of course, oversimplifications based on limited
> observation
> from a limited viewpoint, but for those of us who lack the time to
> learn the
> maths and pour over the datas, the metaphysics are all we have to
> hold on
> to.
> We can understand philosophy much easier than maths, they are easier
> for us
> to discuss and digest.
>
> xponent
> Paradox Maru
> rob

Had this argument with someone who was pretending to understand MWI
vs. Copenhagen the other day.

"The universe is quantum, it only looks classical on our scale" was
lost on her.  :p

(Although to be fair, classical mechanics does sum up pretty well what
we see on our scale.  It's just right for the wrong reasons, is all. :)

"Thank you all for coming around to the self-evident point I made five
minutes ago." -- Toby Ziegler


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I can't believe nobody mentioned Stephen Baxter's book (he is one of the Bs,
after all!).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_Diagrams

Now somebody has.

I certainly enjoyed the book, especially the title story.

Weird, being on-topic, isn't it?

Nick
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At 08:25 PM Saturday 11/29/2008, Bruce Bostwick wrote:

>(Although to be fair, classical mechanics does sum up pretty well what
>we see on our scale.  It's just right for the wrong reasons, is all. :)



Why is it "for the wrong reasons"?  Some would say that if it leads
to predictions which match the observations closely enough to be
useful, it's good enough, at least in the limited range of
observations of interest where it is applicable ("our scale"), and
matching or not matching observations of reality is all that makes a
model "right" or "wrong."  No one except a theoretical physicist is
going to devote such huge amounts of computation time to a real world
problem where classical mechanics gives a good enough answer to
predict frex whether a building will stand or fall or whether a space
probe will successfully land on Mars or crash or miss the planet
entirely . . .


. . . ronn!  :)



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On 11/30/2008 2:26:19 AM, Ronn! Blankenship (ronn_blankenship@...)
wrote:
> At 08:25 PM Saturday 11/29/2008, Bruce Bostwick wrote:
>
> >(Although to be fair, classical mechanics does sum up pretty well what
> >we see on our scale.
> It's just right for the wrong reasons, is all. :)
>
>
>
> Why is it "for the wrong reasons"?  Some would say that if it leads
> to predictions which match the observations closely enough to be
> useful, it's
> good enough, at least in the limited range of
> observations of interest where it is applicable ("our scale"), and
> matching or not matching observations of reality is all that makes a
> model "right" or "wrong."  No one except a theoretical physicist is
> going to devote such huge amounts of computation time to a real world
> problem where classical mechanics gives a good enough answer to
> predict frex whether a building will stand or fall or whether a space
> probe will successfully land on Mars or crash or miss the planet
> entirely . . .
>

Actually, I think you are both right in some respects.
All of our maths concerning physics (to any degree) are no more than
approximations. It just depends on how exact an answer you require to solve
a problem reliably.
If physics were anything more than approximate, we would have final answers
to all our questions.

xponent
Masters Of The Universe Maru
rob

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Rob wrote:

> If physics were anything more than approximate, we would have final
> answers to all our questions.

How?  All physics does is model observations.  Physics was created out of
Natural Philosophy by tabling the question of the reliability of
observations.

Now, you can use the results of physics as a reliable model of what we
observe when you do metaphysics.  But, it is a really really good idea to
not confuse when you are doing physics and when you are doing something
else.  Otherwise you can wander off into the aether. :-)

Dan M.




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On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Nick Arnett <narnett@...> wrote:
>  If free markets reliably  regulate prices,

What exactly do you mean when you say "free markets reliably regulate prices"?

> Surely neither supply nor demand changed much in such a short
> time.

I don't think there was any supply shock. But I have little doubt that
demand decreased with the world-wide economic slowdown.

> I suspect that what we've seen in oil,
> housing and other bubbles is that we have created a system that amplifies
> fear and greed.

One thing I know is that I have reliably been able to fill up my tank
wherever I have been in the US during the last year. Apparently the
market is doing a decent job of coordinating tens of thousands of
people to prospect for oil, extract the oil, transport the oil across
the ocean, refine it to the appropriate regional codes, transport the
gas to the stations, stock the gas, and dispense the gasoline I need
for my car, all without me having to wait in line or search for a gas
station that is not out of gas. That makes me happy.
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On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 5:42 PM, John Williams <jwilliams4200@...>wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Nick Arnett <narnett@...>
> wrote:
> >  If free markets reliably  regulate prices,
>
> What exactly do you mean when you say "free markets reliably regulate
> prices"?


Exactly what I wrote.  As a corollary, I am suggesting that the spike in oil
prices was primarily due to non-market forces.

>
> I don't think there was any supply shock. But I have little doubt that
> demand decreased with the world-wide economic slowdown.


That hardly explains a sudden, huge increase in the price.  From what I
recall from college economics, decreased demand generally depresses prices,
all other things being equal.

>
> One thing I know is that I have reliably been able to fill up my tank
> wherever I have been in the US during the last year. Apparently the
> market is doing a decent job of coordinating tens of thousands of
> people to prospect for oil, extract the oil, transport the oil across
> the ocean, refine it to the appropriate regional codes, transport the
> gas to the stations, stock the gas, and dispense the gasoline I need
> for my car, all without me having to wait in line or search for a gas
> station that is not out of gas. That makes me happy.


You obviously weren't in North Carolina, where stations were out of gas and
prices were the highest in the nation recently (and where my mother was very
happy to own a Prius).  But what does that have to do with price regulation,
by market forces or otherwise?

Nick
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On 11/30/2008 5:30:23 PM, Dan M (dsummersminet@...) wrote:
> Rob wrote:
>
> > If physics were anything more than approximate, we would have final
> > answers to all our questions.
>
> How?  All physics does is model observations.

Models make predictions. And over time models have made predictions with
greater accuracy and that cover more situations that previous models failed.
Mercury anyone?

Models also allow us to re-create phenomena for our own purposes.

> Physics was created out of
> Natural Philosophy by tabling the question of the reliability of
> observations.

Which definition of "tabling" are you using here?

>
> Now, you can use the results of physics as a reliable model of what we
> observe when you do metaphysics.  But, it is a really really good idea to
> not confuse when you are doing physics and when you are doing something
> else.  Otherwise you can wander off into the aether. :-)
>

<G> I think the implication of what I wrote before is that for most of us
there really isn't much of a difference.
I would think it quite different when having a formal discussion.

xponent
Meta-Physical Conversions Maru
rob

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On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 6:54 PM, Nick Arnett <narnett@...> wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 5:42 PM, John Williams <jwilliams4200@...>wrote:
>
>> What exactly do you mean when you say "free markets reliably regulate
>> prices"?
>
> Exactly what I wrote.

So, meaningless. Or so broad as to have no useful meaning.

> That hardly explains a sudden, huge increase in the price.

Oil been coming down for several months now.

> You obviously weren't in North Carolina, where stations were out of gas and
> prices were the highest in the nation recently (and where my mother was very
> happy to own a Prius).

I've never been to North Carolina. But I'll bet there were either
"price gouging" laws or credible threats  to gas stations who charged
prices that were said by some to be too high.


> But what does that have to do with price regulation,
> by market forces or otherwise?

The prices coordinate the entire process I described.
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