Very interesting indeed!
Peter

--- Jesper Nielsen <jesniel@...> wrote:

> Pieve Corena is also quite interesting.
>
>
>
> http://nicolette.dk/diverse/pievecorena.jpg
>
>
>
> It’s by the two twin tripoints.
>
>
>
> Jesper
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> Fra: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]
> På
> vegne af Jesper Nielsen
> Sendt: 27. juli 2005 22:33
> Til: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
> Emne: SV: [borderpoint] Re: Divided buildings on ITSM
>
>
>
> I have written to some local tourist offices and authorities
> regarding
> Poggio Casalino and have received one answer so far that the village
> is in
> San Marino.
>
>
>
> Jesper
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> Fra: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]
> På
> vegne af Jesper Nielsen
> Sendt: 26. juli 2005 20:19
> Til: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
> Emne: SV: [borderpoint] Re: Divided buildings on ITSM
>
>
>
> Nice finding there….
>
>
>
> I don’t think ITSM is demarcated, and it may have been delimited way
> back.
>
>
>
> I plan to visit SM in October, and choosing this crossing should be
> fine. I
> am not travelling with border freaks, so I am not sure how much time
> I have
> to investigate.
>
>
>
> Jesper
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> Fra: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]
> På
> vegne af Peter Smaardijk
> Sendt: 26. juli 2005 09:28
> Til: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
> Emne: [borderpoint] Re: Divided buildings on ITSM
>
>
>
> --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Jesper Nielsen" <jesniel@i...>
> wrote:
> >  <http://cartografia.regione.marche.it/pdf/267010_2D_Plot.pdf>
>
> >
> You could be right.
> What do you think of the group of buildings called C.se Poggio
> Casalino
> at http://cartografia.regione.marche.it/pdf/267050_2D_Plot.pdf ?
> You'll
> probably only know for sure when you have visited it - or maybe not
> even then. So where's the demarcation protocol?
>
> > And even a tripoint between San Marino-Marche-Emilia Romagna
> >
> One of four!
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>
> *  Visit your group "borderpoint
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint> " on the web.
>
> *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  borderpoint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:borderpoint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>   _____
>
>




____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

I only just noticed this, but the BBC is running a series about micro
states on British television (BBC2). The first programme this evening
was about the Principality of Sealand.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-perl/whatson/prog_parse.cgi?FILENAME=20050803/20050803_\
2200_4224_3473_30

I'll see if I can find some more details about this.

Regards,

Kevin Meynell

Press reports from India about the Bhutanese king's visit there
mention that negotiations are in progress to open a corridor to permit
the unhindered movement of goods between Bangladesh and Bhutan across
the small neck of India that separates the two.  (Tin Bigha in large,
or just a duty free road? Stay tuned.)

There are also discussions going on about extending an India railway
track to the Bhutanese line.  Maybe it'll be a duty free rail line.

LN

There is a new website providing interesting history and documentation
of St. Pierre & Miquelon.  It's philatelically oriented, being a post
office site, but very informative overall.

It's interesting to note, when viewing the satellite image of the
islands on the site, how similar they are in geographical layout
(including connecting bridges) to Macao.

LN

http://www.spmtimbres.com

Buna sera Border Point Amitgs ed Amitgas

It was recommended to me that I post this message to
this group. It's my first time at Border Point, so I
will have a slew of archived messages to go through
this week. I love this kind of stuff!

I have just returned from a month-long holiday in
Switzerland where
I sequestered myself in a Graubünden valley, enrolled
in an
intensive course in the Romansch language (Sursilvan
idiom). After
the course I had a few days off and I did some
boundary hunting of
my own.

The first trip I took was to the southwestern point of
Liechtenstein, where its border with Switzerland
resembles that of a
needle-like point. I had purchased a tabletop-sized
map of
Liechtenstein and was intrigued by this needle
appendage that seemed
to poke Switzerland like a flu shot. The needle looked
no wider than
a road, and I endeavoured to find the boundary markers
with
Switzerland.

Sure enough, this part of Liechtenstein was no wider
than a one-lane
road, with the Rhine on one side and the boundary
stones on the
other. I did find stones numbers 2 and 5, marked "L"
on one side
and "S" on the other, and took photos. I also couldn't
resist
climbing on top of stone 2 and placing each foot on
opposite sides
of the chiselled red dividing line. (I feel like an
initiated member
of BoundaryPoint now.)

I could not find the boundary stone number 1, and I
even crawled
through the forested cliff between the road and the
river looking
for it. Since I had found a stone number 2, did that
mean (always)
that there is a stone number 1? Would that one be
nearer the Rhine
riverbank (or, in the river itself)?

My next excursion was to Büsingen, where I followed
the western
border and part of the northern border with
Switzerland. During the
entire way I took photos of each and every boundary
stone marker. I
even asked three people what country they lived in,
since their
houses were snug up to the border, or, in one case,
their property
was divided by it. I have photos of an
internationally-bisected
driveway.

I would like to ask the members of this group if
Büsingen really
qualifies as an enclave (exclave) since it is
accessible via the
Rhine from the German bit of territory stuck between
the two parts
of Schaffhausen canton. I bought an enormous map of
Schaffhausen
canton and the international border here cuts the
Rhine in half. One
could go south to the German town of Gailingen, get in
a boat and
paddle westward to Büsingen. If one kept to the north
shore of the
Rhine the whole time, would one have ever left German
territory? Or
is this map wrong, and are both sides of the Rhine
entirely Swiss
territory between the parts of Schaffhausen canton
that separate
Büsingen from Gailingen?

Craig Rowland
Mississauga, Ontario


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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Bien gi, Craig!

I think Büsingen is an enclave. When you look at the topomap at
http://www.swissgeo.ch/ , you can see that the Rhine in between
Büsingen and the rest of Germany is divided equally between the Swiss
cantons of Schaffhausen (to the north) and Thurgau (to the south).

The strange thing is that border stone no. 1, which stands on the
south-east corner of Büsingen, is depicted in the middle of the Rhine.
I don't know whether there's actually a border stone on the bottom of
the river, or that the point is just that, measured from some witness
markers.

The situation at the Liechtenstein border could be similar (a stone or
a point in the middle of the Rhine), but maybe no. 1 here is on the
other side of the Rhine, actually acting as a witness marker.

The reason of Liechtenstein sticking out so oddly into Swiss territory
seems to be a Swiss-Liechtenstein border adjustment in 1948 (
http://www.lois.ch/sr/0.132.514.1/0.132.514.1_001.htm ) (acc. to
http://www.dhs.ch/externe/protect/textes/f/F7841-1-1036.html , this was
in 1955). Switzerland wanted the Ellhorn mountain nearby, because of
the importance of Ellhorn for the defense of the country. Apparently
there was a swap of territory between Switzerland and Liechtenstein.
The fortifications can be seen at http://tinyurl.com/9y4zz (PDF file,
look for "Sperrstelle Ellhorn").

Best wishes,

Peter

--- Craig <trehala@...> wrote:

> Buna sera Border Point Amitgs ed Amitgas
>
> It was recommended to me that I post this message to
> this group. It's my first time at Border Point, so I
> will have a slew of archived messages to go through
> this week. I love this kind of stuff!
>
> I have just returned from a month-long holiday in
> Switzerland where
> I sequestered myself in a Graubünden valley, enrolled
> in an
> intensive course in the Romansch language (Sursilvan
> idiom). After
> the course I had a few days off and I did some
> boundary hunting of
> my own.
>
> The first trip I took was to the southwestern point of
> Liechtenstein, where its border with Switzerland
> resembles that of a
> needle-like point. I had purchased a tabletop-sized
> map of
> Liechtenstein and was intrigued by this needle
> appendage that seemed
> to poke Switzerland like a flu shot. The needle looked
> no wider than
> a road, and I endeavoured to find the boundary markers
> with
> Switzerland.
>
> Sure enough, this part of Liechtenstein was no wider
> than a one-lane
> road, with the Rhine on one side and the boundary
> stones on the
> other. I did find stones numbers 2 and 5, marked "L"
> on one side
> and "S" on the other, and took photos. I also couldn't
> resist
> climbing on top of stone 2 and placing each foot on
> opposite sides
> of the chiselled red dividing line. (I feel like an
> initiated member
> of BoundaryPoint now.)
>
> I could not find the boundary stone number 1, and I
> even crawled
> through the forested cliff between the road and the
> river looking
> for it. Since I had found a stone number 2, did that
> mean (always)
> that there is a stone number 1? Would that one be
> nearer the Rhine
> riverbank (or, in the river itself)?
>
> My next excursion was to Büsingen, where I followed
> the western
> border and part of the northern border with
> Switzerland. During the
> entire way I took photos of each and every boundary
> stone marker. I
> even asked three people what country they lived in,
> since their
> houses were snug up to the border, or, in one case,
> their property
> was divided by it. I have photos of an
> internationally-bisected
> driveway.
>
> I would like to ask the members of this group if
> Büsingen really
> qualifies as an enclave (exclave) since it is
> accessible via the
> Rhine from the German bit of territory stuck between
> the two parts
> of Schaffhausen canton. I bought an enormous map of
> Schaffhausen
> canton and the international border here cuts the
> Rhine in half. One
> could go south to the German town of Gailingen, get in
> a boat and
> paddle westward to Büsingen. If one kept to the north
> shore of the
> Rhine the whole time, would one have ever left German
> territory? Or
> is this map wrong, and are both sides of the Rhine
> entirely Swiss
> territory between the parts of Schaffhausen canton
> that separate
> Büsingen from Gailingen?
>
> Craig Rowland
> Mississauga, Ontario
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Craig

To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 11:43 PM

Subject: [borderpoint] Liechtenstein and Büsingen

Buna sera Border Point Amitgs ed Amitgas

It was recommended to me that I post this message to
this group. It's my first time at Border Point, so I
will have a slew of archived messages to go through
this week. I love this kind of stuff!

I have just returned from a month-long holiday in
Switzerland where
I sequestered myself in a Graubünden valley, enrolled
in an
intensive course in the Romansch language (Sursilvan
idiom). After
the course I had a few days off and I did some
boundary hunting of
my own.

The first trip I took was to the southwestern point of
Liechtenstein, where its border with Switzerland
resembles that of a
needle-like point. I had purchased a tabletop-sized
map of
Liechtenstein and was intrigued by this needle
appendage that seemed
to poke Switzerland like a flu shot. The needle looked
no wider than
a road, and I endeavoured to find the boundary markers
with
Switzerland.

Sure enough, this part of Liechtenstein was no wider
than a one-lane
road, with the Rhine on one side and the boundary
stones on the
other. I did find stones numbers 2 and 5, marked "L"
on one side
and "S" on the other, and took photos. I also couldn't
resist
climbing on top of stone 2 and placing each foot on
opposite sides
of the chiselled red dividing line. (I feel like an
initiated member
of BoundaryPoint now.)

I could not find the boundary stone number 1, and I
even crawled
through the forested cliff between the road and the
river looking
for it. Since I had found a stone number 2, did that
mean (always)
that there is a stone number 1? Would that one be
nearer the Rhine
riverbank (or, in the river itself)?

My next excursion was to Büsingen, where I followed
the western
border and part of the northern border with
Switzerland. During the
entire way I took photos of each and every boundary
stone marker. I
even asked three people what country they lived in,
since their
houses were snug up to the border, or, in one case,
their property
was divided by it. I have photos of an
internationally-bisected
driveway.

I would like to ask the members of this group if
Büsingen really
qualifies as an enclave (exclave) since it is
accessible via the
Rhine from the German bit of territory stuck between
the two parts
of Schaffhausen canton. I bought an enormous map of
Schaffhausen
canton and the international border here cuts the
Rhine in half. One
could go south to the German town of Gailingen, get in
a boat and
paddle westward to Büsingen. If one kept to the north
shore of the
Rhine the whole time, would one have ever left German
territory? Or
is this map wrong, and are both sides of the Rhine
entirely Swiss
territory between the parts of Schaffhausen canton
that separate
Büsingen from Gailingen?

Craig Rowland
Mississauga, Ontario


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


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Hello Peter

Thank-you for your informative and link-happy reply. On the map link,
do the border markings that look like capital I's on their side
represent cantonal borders?

And, do the numbers next to the little circles represent the numbers
of the border stones? I mapped my route up the western and across
part of the northern boundary between Switzerland and Büsingen and I
will check out the stone numbers with the numbers on this map link.

Yes, I do have plenty of photos. Perhaps many that members have seen
before, however I will attempt to post a few in a file here. I do not
have a scanner, yet will ask a friend to post some (unless I hear
from the membership that you'd really like to see _every_ border
stone photo).

Craig

--- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, Peter Smaardijk <smaardijk@y...>
wrote:
> Bien gi, Craig!
>
> I think Büsingen is an enclave. When you look at the topomap at
> http://www.swissgeo.ch/ , you can see that the Rhine in between
> Büsingen and the rest of Germany is divided equally between the
Swiss
> cantons of Schaffhausen (to the north) and Thurgau (to the south).
>
> The strange thing is that border stone no. 1, which stands on the
> south-east corner of Büsingen, is depicted in the middle of the
Rhine.
> I don't know whether there's actually a border stone on the bottom
of
> the river, or that the point is just that, measured from some
witness
> markers.
>
> The situation at the Liechtenstein border could be similar (a stone
or
> a point in the middle of the Rhine), but maybe no. 1 here is on the
> other side of the Rhine, actually acting as a witness marker.
>
> The reason of Liechtenstein sticking out so oddly into Swiss
territory
> seems to be a Swiss-Liechtenstein border adjustment in 1948 (
> http://www.lois.ch/sr/0.132.514.1/0.132.514.1_001.htm ) (acc. to
> http://www.dhs.ch/externe/protect/textes/f/F7841-1-1036.html , this
was
> in 1955). Switzerland wanted the Ellhorn mountain nearby, because of
> the importance of Ellhorn for the defense of the country. Apparently
> there was a swap of territory between Switzerland and Liechtenstein.
> The fortifications can be seen at http://tinyurl.com/9y4zz (PDF
file,
> look for "Sperrstelle Ellhorn").
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Peter

--- Craig <trehala@...> wrote:

> Hello Peter
>
> (unless I hear
> from the membership that you'd really like to see
> _every_ border
> stone photo).

I would, please.



____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

There is a website that someone from Boundarypoint has running where
every Büsinger border stone (on land) is pictured.  I'll see if I can
find out where it is - I only made a note of it, but don't remember on
what scrap of paper it was.
LN


--- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Craig" <trehala@y...> wrote:
> Hello Peter
>
> Thank-you for your informative and link-happy reply. On the map link,
> do the border markings that look like capital I's on their side
> represent cantonal borders?
>
> And, do the numbers next to the little circles represent the numbers
> of the border stones? I mapped my route up the western and across
> part of the northern boundary between Switzerland and Büsingen and I
> will check out the stone numbers with the numbers on this map link.
>
> Yes, I do have plenty of photos. Perhaps many that members have seen
> before, however I will attempt to post a few in a file here. I do not
> have a scanner, yet will ask a friend to post some (unless I hear
> from the membership that you'd really like to see _every_ border
> stone photo).
>
> Craig
>
> --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, Peter Smaardijk <smaardijk@y...>
> wrote:
> > Bien gi, Craig!
> >
> > I think Büsingen is an enclave. When you look at the topomap at
> > http://www.swissgeo.ch/ , you can see that the Rhine in between
> > Büsingen and the rest of Germany is divided equally between the
> Swiss
> > cantons of Schaffhausen (to the north) and Thurgau (to the south).
> >
> > The strange thing is that border stone no. 1, which stands on the
> > south-east corner of Büsingen, is depicted in the middle of the
> Rhine.
> > I don't know whether there's actually a border stone on the bottom
> of
> > the river, or that the point is just that, measured from some
> witness
> > markers.
> >
> > The situation at the Liechtenstein border could be similar (a stone
> or
> > a point in the middle of the Rhine), but maybe no. 1 here is on the
> > other side of the Rhine, actually acting as a witness marker.
> >
> > The reason of Liechtenstein sticking out so oddly into Swiss
> territory
> > seems to be a Swiss-Liechtenstein border adjustment in 1948 (
> > http://www.lois.ch/sr/0.132.514.1/0.132.514.1_001.htm ) (acc. to
> > http://www.dhs.ch/externe/protect/textes/f/F7841-1-1036.html , this
> was
> > in 1955). Switzerland wanted the Ellhorn mountain nearby, because of
> > the importance of Ellhorn for the defense of the country. Apparently
> > there was a swap of territory between Switzerland and Liechtenstein.
> > The fortifications can be seen at http://tinyurl.com/9y4zz (PDF
> file,
> > look for "Sperrstelle Ellhorn").
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Peter

Wasn't that Mats? See http://tinyurl.com/7bec6
Peter
--- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Jesper Nielsen" <jesniel@i...>
wrote:
> I don't remember that site but here some:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/mafiapetedk/enclaves.html
>
>
>
> http://home.worldonline.dk/jesniel/gcebereport/day7.htm
>
>
>
> Jesper
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> Fra: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] På
> vegne af L. A. Nadybal
> Sendt: 10. august 2005 05:02
> Til: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
> Emne: [borderpoint] Re: Büsingen - Border stones
>
>
>
> There is a website that someone from Boundarypoint has running where
> every Büsinger border stone (on land) is pictured.  I'll see if I
can
> find out where it is - I only made a note of it, but don't remember
on
> what scrap of paper it was.
> LN
>
>
> --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Craig" <trehala@y...> wrote:
> > Hello Peter
> >
> > Thank-you for your informative and link-happy reply. On the map
link,
> > do the border markings that look like capital I's on their side
> > represent cantonal borders?
> >
> > And, do the numbers next to the little circles represent the
numbers
> > of the border stones? I mapped my route up the western and across
> > part of the northern boundary between Switzerland and Büsingen
and I
> > will check out the stone numbers with the numbers on this map
link.
> >
> > Yes, I do have plenty of photos. Perhaps many that members have
seen
> > before, however I will attempt to post a few in a file here. I do
not
> > have a scanner, yet will ask a friend to post some (unless I hear
> > from the membership that you'd really like to see _every_ border
> > stone photo).
> >
> > Craig
> >
> > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, Peter Smaardijk
<smaardijk@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > Bien gi, Craig!
> > >
> > > I think Büsingen is an enclave. When you look at the topomap at
> > > http://www.swissgeo.ch/ , you can see that the Rhine in between
> > > Büsingen and the rest of Germany is divided equally between the
> > Swiss
> > > cantons of Schaffhausen (to the north) and Thurgau (to the
south).
> > >
> > > The strange thing is that border stone no. 1, which stands on
the
> > > south-east corner of Büsingen, is depicted in the middle of the
> > Rhine.
> > > I don't know whether there's actually a border stone on the
bottom
> > of
> > > the river, or that the point is just that, measured from some
> > witness
> > > markers.
> > >
> > > The situation at the Liechtenstein border could be similar (a
stone
> > or
> > > a point in the middle of the Rhine), but maybe no. 1 here is on
the
> > > other side of the Rhine, actually acting as a witness marker.
> > >
> > > The reason of Liechtenstein sticking out so oddly into Swiss
> > territory
> > > seems to be a Swiss-Liechtenstein border adjustment in 1948 (
> > > http://www.lois.ch/sr/0.132.514.1/0.132.514.1_001.htm ) (acc. to
> > > http://www.dhs.ch/externe/protect/textes/f/F7841-1-1036.html ,
this
> > was
> > > in 1955). Switzerland wanted the Ellhorn mountain nearby,
because of
> > > the importance of Ellhorn for the defense of the country.
Apparently
> > > there was a swap of territory between Switzerland and
Liechtenstein.
> > > The fortifications can be seen at http://tinyurl.com/9y4zz (PDF
> > file,
> > > look for "Sperrstelle Ellhorn").
> > >
> > > Best wishes,
> > >
> > > Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
>
> *  Visit your group "borderpoint
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint> " on the web.
>
> *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  borderpoint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:borderpoint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>   _____

Hi Craig, I forgot to answer you... Here my belated reply:

"On the map link, do the border markings that look like capital I's
on their side represent cantonal borders?"

Yes.

"And, do the numbers next to the little circles represent the numbers
of the border stones?"

Again, yes.

"Yes, I do have plenty of photos. Perhaps many that members have seen
before, however I will attempt to post a few in a file here. I do not
have a scanner, yet will ask a friend to post some (unless I hear
from the membership that you'd really like to see _every_ border
stone photo)."

Well, maybe _every_ border stone is a lot of work for you, but I'd
like to see as many as possible!

Peter

No, I'm sorry. I don't have pictures of more
than a few Büsinger borderstones.

But I do encourage a collective effort by those
who care about such matters (i. e. us) to
work for a complete documentation of the
borders of all european exclaves. Much work
has already been done at Llivia and Campione,
but as far as I know the Büsinger border is,
although thoroughly demarcated, pretty much virgin
territory to us. That's why I excitedly greet
Craig's effort, and hope to see pictures soon.

M

--- Peter Smaardijk <smaardijk@...> wrote:

> Wasn't that Mats? See http://tinyurl.com/7bec6
> Peter
> --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Jesper Nielsen"
> <jesniel@i...>
> wrote:
> > I don't remember that site but here some:
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/mafiapetedk/enclaves.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
http://home.worldonline.dk/jesniel/gcebereport/day7.htm
> >
> >
> >
> > Jesper
> >
> >
> >
> >   _____
> >
> > Fra: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] På
> > vegne af L. A. Nadybal
> > Sendt: 10. august 2005 05:02
> > Til: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
> > Emne: [borderpoint] Re: Büsingen - Border stones
> >
> >
> >
> > There is a website that someone from Boundarypoint
> has running where
> > every Büsinger border stone (on land) is pictured.
>  I'll see if I
> can
> > find out where it is - I only made a note of it,
> but don't remember
> on
> > what scrap of paper it was.
> > LN
> >
> >
> > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Craig"
> <trehala@y...> wrote:
> > > Hello Peter
> > >
> > > Thank-you for your informative and link-happy
> reply. On the map
> link,
> > > do the border markings that look like capital
> I's on their side
> > > represent cantonal borders?
> > >
> > > And, do the numbers next to the little circles
> represent the
> numbers
> > > of the border stones? I mapped my route up the
> western and across
> > > part of the northern boundary between
> Switzerland and Büsingen
> and I
> > > will check out the stone numbers with the
> numbers on this map
> link.
> > >
> > > Yes, I do have plenty of photos. Perhaps many
> that members have
> seen
> > > before, however I will attempt to post a few in
> a file here. I do
> not
> > > have a scanner, yet will ask a friend to post
> some (unless I hear
> > > from the membership that you'd really like to
> see _every_ border
> > > stone photo).
> > >
> > > Craig
> > >
> > > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, Peter
> Smaardijk
> <smaardijk@y...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Bien gi, Craig!
> > > >
> > > > I think Büsingen is an enclave. When you look
> at the topomap at
> > > > http://www.swissgeo.ch/ , you can see that the
> Rhine in between
> > > > Büsingen and the rest of Germany is divided
> equally between the
> > > Swiss
> > > > cantons of Schaffhausen (to the north) and
> Thurgau (to the
> south).
> > > >
> > > > The strange thing is that border stone no. 1,
> which stands on
> the
> > > > south-east corner of Büsingen, is depicted in
> the middle of the
> > > Rhine.
> > > > I don't know whether there's actually a border
> stone on the
> bottom
> > > of
> > > > the river, or that the point is just that,
> measured from some
> > > witness
> > > > markers.
> > > >
> > > > The situation at the Liechtenstein border
> could be similar (a
> stone
> > > or
> > > > a point in the middle of the Rhine), but maybe
> no. 1 here is on
> the
> > > > other side of the Rhine, actually acting as a
> witness marker.
> > > >
> > > > The reason of Liechtenstein sticking out so
> oddly into Swiss
> > > territory
> > > > seems to be a Swiss-Liechtenstein border
> adjustment in 1948 (
> > > >
>
http://www.lois.ch/sr/0.132.514.1/0.132.514.1_001.htm
> ) (acc. to
> > > >
>
http://www.dhs.ch/externe/protect/textes/f/F7841-1-1036.html
> ,
> this
> > > was
> > > > in 1955). Switzerland wanted the Ellhorn
> mountain nearby,
> because of
> > > > the importance of Ellhorn for the defense of
> the country.
> Apparently
> > > > there was a swap of territory between
> Switzerland and
> Liechtenstein.
> > > > The fortifications can be seen at
> http://tinyurl.com/9y4zz (PDF
> > > file,
> > > > look for "Sperrstelle Ellhorn").
> > > >
> > > > Best wishes,
> > > >
> > > > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   _____
> >
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >
> >
> > *  Visit your group "borderpoint
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint> " on
> the web.
> >
> > *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
> to:
> >  borderpoint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:borderpoint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
> subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
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> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of
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> >
> >
> >
> >   _____
>
>
>




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Great, Romain! First pictures I see of it since I asked four years
ago about this peculiar piece of land ( http://tinyurl.com/93ek4 ).
And beautifully presented, too. Planning to publish the big picture
as a poster? ;-)
I'm still wondering whether there is a story behind it all, but maybe
there isn't...
Best wishes,
Peter

--- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Romain HODAPP"
<romain_hodapp@y...> wrote:
> Hello all !
>
> Just some picture about a small part aof the swiss territory. It's
not an enclave but it is a great place and an pleasant ballad.
> Photo were taken in june.
> Aerial photos and maps are taken from the sites : www.swissgeo.ch/
and http://map.search.ch/.
>
>
> http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl.jpg
>
> And the different pictures ...
>
> http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl1.jpg
> http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl2.jpg
> http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl3.JPG
> http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl4.jpg
> http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl5.jpg
> http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl6.JPG
> http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl7.JPG
> http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl8.JPG
>
> Isn't it a great place ??? For a forester like me, it's funny. The
north point of this territory has a width of about 50 meters only.
>
> Bye
> Romain

----- Original Message -----

From: Peter Smaardijk

To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 1:30 PM

Subject: [borderpoint] Re: Not an enclave but a small part of the swiss territory - Maienbühl, east of Basel, Basel Stadt Kanton

Great, Romain! First pictures I see of it since I asked four years
ago about this peculiar piece of land ( http://tinyurl.com/93ek4 ).
And beautifully presented, too. Planning to publish the big picture
as a poster? ;-)
I'm still wondering whether there is a story behind it all, but maybe
there isn't...
Best wishes,
Peter

--- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Romain HODAPP"
<romain_hodapp@y...> wrote:
> Hello all !
>
> Just some picture about a small part aof the swiss territory. It's
not an enclave but it is a great place and an pleasant ballad.
> Photo were taken in june.
> Aerial photos and maps are taken from the sites : www.swissgeo.ch/
and http://map.search.ch/.
>
>
> http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl.jpg
>
> And the different pictures ...
>
> http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl1.jpg
> http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl2.jpg
> http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl3.JPG
> http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl4.jpg
> http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl5.jpg
> http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl6.JPG
> http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl7.JPG
> http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl8.JPG
>
> Isn't it a great place ??? For a forester like me, it's funny. The
north point of this territory has a width of about 50 meters only.
>
> Bye
> Romain




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Thank-you Romain

These slices of Swiss land interest me too. I picked up a huge map of
Schaffhausen canton a couple weeks ago while I was there and the twists
the Swiss border takes are enough to make you dizzy, as well as freak
out over the border-crossing possibilities. The Maienbühl part of
Switzerland reminds me immediately of the thin needle of southwest
Liechtenstein that pokes Switzerland. It's no wider than a one-land
road.

Craig

--- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Smaardijk" <smaardijk@y...>
wrote:
> Great, Romain! First pictures I see of it since I asked four years
> ago about this peculiar piece of land ( http://tinyurl.com/93ek4 ).
> And beautifully presented, too. Planning to publish the big picture
> as a poster? ;-)
> I'm still wondering whether there is a story behind it all, but maybe
> there isn't...
> Best wishes,
> Peter

The Maienbühl part of
Switzerland reminds me immediately of the thin needle of southwest
Liechtenstein that pokes Switzerland. It's no wider than a one-land
road.

First off, I would also like to thank Romain for those excellent
pictures from Mainebühel.

Second, regarding the source of this curious salient: According to
Khan, Daniel-Erasmus, "Die deutschen Staatsgrenzen" (2004), p. 161,
the boundaries in the area of Basel are of a very old origin and pre-
date the time Basel entered the Swiss union in 1501.

Unfortunately, in his book he does not go back further than this. So
maybe the source is simply that Basel had some sort of mediaval
logging rights that eventually evolved into feudal and later
sovereign rights? But that is a pure guess, nothing else...

Cheers,
Anton


--- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Smaardijk"
<smaardijk@y...> wrote:
> Great, Romain! First pictures I see of it since I asked four years
> ago about this peculiar piece of land (
http://tinyurl.com/93ek4 ).
> And beautifully presented, too. Planning to publish the big
picture
> as a poster? ;-)
> I'm still wondering whether there is a story behind it all, but
maybe
> there isn't...
> Best wishes,
> Peter
>
> --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Romain HODAPP"
> <romain_hodapp@y...> wrote:
> > Hello all !
> >
> > Just some picture about a small part aof the swiss territory.
It's
> not an enclave but it is a great place and an pleasant ballad.
> > Photo were taken in june.
> > Aerial photos and maps are taken from the sites :
www.swissgeo.ch/
> and http://map.search.ch/.
> >
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl.jpg
> >
> > And the different pictures ...
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl1.jpg
> > http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl2.jpg
> > http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl3.JPG
> > http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl4.jpg
> > http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl5.jpg
> > http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl6.JPG
> > http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl7.JPG
> > http://www.geocities.com/hodapp_spm/maienbuehl8.JPG
> >
> > Isn't it a great place ??? For a forester like me, it's funny.
The
> north point of this territory has a width of about 50 meters only.
> >
> > Bye
> > Romain

Kevin (and all):

I've been able to view the first two episodes of this show "How to
Start Your Own Country".  It's quite funny, and there is a companion
website at www.citizensrequired.com .  Episode 3 airs on BBC2 tonight
at 10pm in London (and across the UK).

There is a way to view this on the internet using a file sharing system
called bittorrent.  Depending on where you are, it might be a violation
of copyright to transfer the files.  But if you're interested, I can
point you to more information.  Please email me directly.

Cheers!

Doug

PS:  If you can view BBC2 wherever you are, I also recommend the series
Extras. Very funny.



On Aug 3, 2005, at 3:10 PM, Kevin Meynell wrote:

> I only just noticed this, but the BBC is running a series about micro
>  states on British television (BBC2). The first programme this evening
>  was about the Principality of Sealand.
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-perl/whatson/prog_parse.cgi?
> FILENAME=20050803/20050803_2200_4224_3473_30
>
>  I'll see if I can find some more details about this.
>
>  Regards,
>
>  Kevin Meynell
>
>
>
>
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Here's a story BBC Radio 4 did on enclaves and Baarle:

http://www.bbc.tv/radio4/excessbaggage/index_20040501.shtml

Cheers!

Doug

Could someone fill us in on the story behind the pub Ye Olde Mitre (or
whatever ye olde englyshe spellinge should be), Ely place, being both
in the centre of London but also being part of Cambridgeshire?

At the Google cache of http://www.pub-
explorer.com/gtlondon/pub/yeoldemitrereviews.htm it is said that "those
with no romance in their hearts will tell you that Cambridgeshire
officially handed over jurisdiction of Ely Place to Camden Council
sometime in the 1970's" ... so the enclave is no more? But it used to
be real???

Interesting stuffe...

Peter

--- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, Doug Murray <doug@b...> wrote:
>
> Here's a story BBC Radio 4 did on enclaves and Baarle:
>
> http://www.bbc.tv/radio4/excessbaggage/index_20040501.shtml
>
> Cheers!
>
> Doug

Any idea how to open the (tiny: 55 bytes) .ram file that is the link at
"listen to excess baggage"??


>Here's a story BBC Radio 4 did on enclaves and Baarle:
>http://www.bbc.tv/radio4/excessbaggage/index_20040501.shtml



Brendan