I can't open again ! any ideas?

> I can't open again ! any ideas?

Alex, are you using the Web interface on Yahoo Groups' site or do you
receive the messages by e-mail? In the former case, attachments are
not displayed or downloadable and you really wouldn't be able to open
them. In the latter case, Dallen sent us a PDF file and you should be
able to open it with Adobe Reader, Foxit, even OpenOffice.org, unless
you are behind a corporate/government/school firewall that filters
and bars attachments.

What exactly happens? Do you get the attachment but can't open it, or
don't even get it?

Regards,

Goytá

Hi Hugh:

I have lots of pictures on Flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/borderfilms/

There is a set on the right hand side, about six down from the top.
Lots of other border pix too.

Also: if anyone on BP is in Ireland, I'll be talking about my
trip Saturday morning on NewsTalk Radio's Weekend with
Orla Barry.  About 10.20am Dublin time!

Cheers!

Doug


Thanks for the comments.

Hugh Wallis wrote:
>
> Great writing and interesting story - thanks Doug
>
> Have you posted any more of your photos anywhere, such as Flickr ? I
> would be interested to see them
>
> Cheers
>
> Hugh
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Doug Murray
> *Sent:* March 30, 2009 11:49
> *To:* borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* [borderpoint] Chernobyl Story
>
>
> Last year while on the Great Black Sea Border Expedition, I travelled to
> Chernobyl (very close to BYRUUA).
>
> The story of my bizarre experience has just been published in the San
> Francisco & Malaysian markets.
>
> Here's the link: http://tinyurl.com/dxpd9z <http://tinyurl.com/dxpd9z>
>
> Cheers!
>
> Doug
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------
> D o u g M u r r a y
> sounds+images+words
>
> Vancouver, BC, Canada
> San Pedro la Laguna, Guatemala (currently)
>
> 1.604.728.1407 Canada
> 1.206.333.0220 USA
> 502 42 68 73 32 Guatemala (currently)
>
> Love travel? www.wanderism.com
>
>

--
-----------------------------------------
D o u g  M u r r a y
sounds+images+words

Vancouver, BC, Canada
San Pedro la Laguna, Guatemala (currently)

1.604.728.1407 Canada
1.206.333.0220 USA
502 42 68 73 32 Guatemala  (currently)

Love travel? www.wanderism.com

"ICE" is Immigration and Customs Enforcement, an investigative division of
the U.S. Department of Homeland Security that handles anti-smuggling
efforts, among other things.

http://www.thenewsgramonline.net/news.php?nid=2225

Lowell G. McManus
Eagle Pass, Texas, USA

I recorded the interview and posted it here (bottom of page):

http://web.me.com/dougmurray/borderfilms/index.html

Cheers!

Doug


Hugh Wallis wrote:
>
> Great pics as usual - you are really good at this stuff Doug
>
> BTW, newstalk appears to be available to listen to via the internet -
> see http://newstalk.ie/newstalk/index.html
> <http://newstalk.ie/newstalk/index.html> - and they produce podcasts
> too so, given that 1020 am is 520am here in Toronto (and 220am in
> Vancouver!!) I will have to hope that they podcast your interview
>
> Cheers
>
> Hugh
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Doug Murray
> *Sent:* April 3, 2009 10:25
> *To:* borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [borderpoint] Chernobyl Story
>
> Hi Hugh:
>
> I have lots of pictures on Flickr:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/borderfilms/
> <http://www.flickr.com/photos/borderfilms/>
>
> There is a set on the right hand side, about six down from the top.
> Lots of other border pix too.
>
> Also: if anyone on BP is in Ireland, I'll be talking about my
> trip Saturday morning on NewsTalk Radio's Weekend with
> Orla Barry. About 10.20am Dublin time!
>
> Cheers!
>
> Doug
>
> Thanks for the comments.
>
> Hugh Wallis wrote:
> >
> > Great writing and interesting story - thanks Doug
> >
> > Have you posted any more of your photos anywhere, such as Flickr ? I
> > would be interested to see them
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Hugh
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:* borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:borderpoint%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:borderpoint%40yahoogroups.com>] *On Behalf Of *Doug Murray
> > *Sent:* March 30, 2009 11:49
> > *To:* borderpoint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:borderpoint%40yahoogroups.com>
> > *Subject:* [borderpoint] Chernobyl Story
> >
> >
> > Last year while on the Great Black Sea Border Expedition, I travelled to
> > Chernobyl (very close to BYRUUA).
> >
> > The story of my bizarre experience has just been published in the San
> > Francisco & Malaysian markets.
> >
> > Here's the link: http://tinyurl.com/dxpd9z
> <http://tinyurl.com/dxpd9z> <http://tinyurl.com/dxpd9z
> <http://tinyurl.com/dxpd9z>>
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Doug
> >
> > --
> > -----------------------------------------
> > D o u g M u r r a y
> > sounds+images+words
> >
> > Vancouver, BC, Canada
> > San Pedro la Laguna, Guatemala (currently)
> >
> > 1.604.728.1407 Canada
> > 1.206.333.0220 USA
> > 502 42 68 73 32 Guatemala (currently)
> >
> > Love travel? www.wanderism.com
> >
> >
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------
> D o u g M u r r a y
> sounds+images+words
>
> Vancouver, BC, Canada
> San Pedro la Laguna, Guatemala (currently)
>
> 1.604.728.1407 Canada
> 1.206.333.0220 USA
> 502 42 68 73 32 Guatemala (currently)
>
> Love travel? www.wanderism.com
>
>

--
-----------------------------------------
D o u g  M u r r a y
sounds+images+words

Vancouver, BC, Canada (currently)
San Pedro la Laguna, Guatemala

1.604.728.1407 Canada (currently)
1.206.333.0220 USA
502 42 68 73 32 Guatemala

Love travel? www.wanderism.com

Goyta, I use web version of yahoo groups (I don't receive mails). And my
computer is ex corporate, but now personal.
This is how I receive attachments:

Attachment
Dubai border0001.pdf
Type:
application/octet-stream

Any ideas now?

Regards, Alex

> Goyta, I use web version of yahoo groups (I don't receive
> mails). And my computer is ex corporate, but now personal. This
> is how I receive attachments: (...)

I get the group's messages by e-mail, but I had a look at the web
interface now to see what I got. I just got the attachment
information as text, without a link to download it. Maybe Dallen can
send it directly to you by e-mail (I didn't keep the file), but I
suggest that you change your membership configuration to receive
future messages by e-mail. You can set up a filter in your Yahoo Mail
account so that Borderpoint messages are diverted to a special
folder. In this way, that wouldn't be disrupting, now that Yahoo has
unlimited e-mail storage. And you can still see the messages via the
web interface if you wish. Think of that.

Regards,

Goytá

Who set up the old gmane site in the old days of boundarypoint - it was really
easy to pick up the attachments there... the mirror was better than the Yahoo
original once Yahoo started ditching attachments.

You can also save the file in the files library - then delete them after
everyone has had a chance ot open and view it - to save space over the long
haul.

len

--- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Goyta' F. Villela Jr." <goytabr@...> wrote:
>
> > Goyta, I use web version of yahoo groups (I don't receive
> > mails). And my computer is ex corporate, but now personal. This
> > is how I receive attachments: (...)
>
> I get the group's messages by e-mail, but I had a look at the web
> interface now to see what I got. I just got the attachment
> information as text, without a link to download it. Maybe Dallen can
> send it directly to you by e-mail (I didn't keep the file), but I
> suggest that you change your membership configuration to receive
> future messages by e-mail. You can set up a filter in your Yahoo Mail
> account so that Borderpoint messages are diverted to a special
> folder. In this way, that wouldn't be disrupting, now that Yahoo has
> unlimited e-mail storage. And you can still see the messages via the
> web interface if you wish. Think of that.
>
> Regards,
>
> Goytá
>

Hello All,

I am currently a senior and political science major in College and would
greatly appreciate help in deciphering the international boundaries and
borders. This is of great interest to me as you can see.

I was reading and article today saying how Uzebekistan ratified there border
agreement with Tajikistan.

http://www.dur.ac.uk/ibru/news/boundary_news/?itemno=7732&rehref=%2Fibru%2F&resu\
bj=Boundary+news%20Headlines

It seems that these two countries are conjoining heads and fighting problems
together.

What is your take on this?

ryoung693@...

Dear colleagues,

I am very pleased to join this email list [another was meant - not borderpoint -
LN]. My name is Suzette V. Suarez. I am from the Philippines. I am currently
working as Associate Legal Officer at the International Tribunal for the Law of
the Sea. Prior to my current post, I worked for the Philippine government. In
the Philippines, I was actively involved in maritime delimitation and
territorial disputes issues. My recent publication is on the legal aspects of
delimiting the outer limits of the continental shelf (Springer Verlag).

I would like to thank Prof Kwiatkowska for her initial views concerning the
Romania v. Ukraine Maritime Delimitation in the Black Sea.

I would also like to take this opportunity to announce a training programme on
dispute settlement under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea
which the Tribunal established, with the financial support of the Nippon
Foundation.  The programme has been developed to offer young government
officials and researchers working in the field of the law of the sea or dispute
settlement in-depth knowledge of the dispute-settlement mechanisms available to
States under Part XV of the Convention.

The programme will be offered to five (5) participants, three (3) of whom will
come from developing countries. It will run from 1 July 2009 to 31 March 2010.
Lectures, case studies and training in negotiation, mediation and delimitation
of maritime areas will enable participants to acquire a deeper understanding of
the dispute-settlement mechanisms under the Convention. Study visits will be
made to organizations dealing with law of the sea matters. Lectures will also be
given on current issues of the law of the sea (fisheries, environment, climate
change, delimitation).



Interested candidates are invited to consult the website of the Tribunal at
www.itlos.org, where they can find the necessary information. Applicants are
requested to complete the "personal history profile and research proposal form"
and the "nomination form" made available on the website. The deadline for the
submission of applications is 30 April 2009.



Best regards,



Suzette V. Suarez

Associate Legal Officer

International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea

(...)
> I was reading and article today saying how Uzebekistan ratified there
> border agreement with Tajikistan.

http://tinyurl.com/cba4fl to make things easier.

> It seems that these two countries are conjoining heads and
> fighting problems together.
>
> What is your take on this?

It seemed to me a normal border demarcation treaty. Such treaties are
almost always a good thing (unless they are imposed by force and/or
divide ethnic groups), because they can act to prevent conflict
later. But I saw nothing extraordinary in it, except that one would
think that in this particular case the borders would have been well
demarcated in the USSR times (between the former Soviet Republics)
and that they would take those borders as definitive. From the
article, it seems that it was not so, and that would be a more
interesting story to learn.

Central Asia is also a sensitive region - the countries themselves
mostly get along relatively well with each other, but they have
shifting loyalties, are still highly dependent and subject to a
strong influence of old Mother Russia, and have an obviously
strategic location since immemorial times (including being an
important route of the Silk Road and being in the position of sending
hordes of warriors that terrorised Eurasia on more than one
occasion), only overshadowed for a brief period (in a longer
historical timeline context) by their inaccessibility during Soviet
times. They could be deeply involved (and to some extent, already
are) in neighbouring political hotspots such as the Middle East and
Afghanistan. So, the better they solve their issues, the better for
us all.

I would also like to know what the reaction in Taipei was, if any.
Everybody knows that Taiwan claims to be the only legitimate
government of all of China, but not everybody knows that their
definition of "China" corresponds to a much larger area than just the
sum of Taiwan and the PRC. It includes the PRC and all its own
territorial claims, plus many areas that the PRC does not claim -
including entire Mongolia, portions of Siberia, and the area of Gorno-
Badakhshan in Tajikistan. Gorno-Badakhshan does not border
Uzbekistan, but this seemed to be a good opportunity for Taiwan to
restate its claim.

Regards,

Goytá

Hello,
I've seen some of you mention Taiwan, so I am again curious about your views on
this issue. Can we consider Taiwan to be a separate country?

Here are the issues:
1. Both ROC and PRC claim that there is only one China, which
    means that non of the ''chinese'' gov claimes Taiwan to be
    independent. Even the Taiwanese themselves claim that
    the whole China belongs to them.
2. According to UN, there is only one China (PRC), and Taiwan
    is part of that China.

I personally recognize Taiwan as being separate territory because
it has never been part of PRC, but I would like to know your views
on this (and the int'l law in this case).

Regards, Alex

Hi,
According to wikipedia, Argentine has 3 exclaves.
1. Isla Martin Garcia - surrounded by Uruguayan waters
2. Apipe island - surrounded by Paraguayan river
3. Entre Rios island - surrounded by Paraguayan river

For me, enclave has to be surrounded by internal waters in order
to be considered as an exclave, so I would like to know whether these
enclaves are indeed or if wikipedia has got a mistake. I am not
sure about Isla Martin Garcia since I think that they might be surrounded by
territorial waters of Uruguay instead of internal waters like in other 2 cases
(which I doubt that even exist, I haven't found any maps or proofs).

Regards, Alex

>I've seen some of you mention Taiwan, so I am again curious about
>your views on this issue. Can we consider Taiwan to be a separate country?

It is, for practical purposes, a separate country at the present
time. Legal fictions can be created to pretend otherwise, but it has
all the trappings of a sovereign state except UN membership.

Regards,

Kevin Meynell

I agree!

Nations are free to recognize whatever other nations that they wish.  There
are some that recognize the ROC, and I do too!

UN membership is one criterion (or "trapping" in Kevin's apt word), but it's
not the sole determinant of sovereignty.  We had sovereign nations long
before there was any UN.

Lowell G. McManus
Eagle Pass, Texas, USA



----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Meynell" <knm@...>
To: <borderpoint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Taiwan and China


>
>>I've seen some of you mention Taiwan, so I am again curious about
>>your views on this issue. Can we consider Taiwan to be a separate country?
>
> It is, for practical purposes, a separate country at the present
> time. Legal fictions can be created to pretend otherwise, but it has
> all the trappings of a sovereign state except UN membership.
>
> Regards,
>
> Kevin Meynell
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

> Hi,
> According to wikipedia, Argentine has 3 exclaves.
> 1. Isla Martin Garcia - surrounded by Uruguayan waters
> 2. Apipe island - surrounded by Paraguayan river
> 3. Entre Rios island - surrounded by Paraguayan river

The latter two are actually in the Paraná river, not in the Paraguay
river (which is the Paraná's largest tributary). But they are on the
border of Argentina and Paraguay (the country).

> For me, enclave has to be surrounded by internal waters in order
> to be considered as an exclave, so I would like to know whether
> these enclaves are indeed or if wikipedia has got a mistake.

All three cases are of Argentine land surrounded by foreign river
waters up to the low tide mark, so they are really technical exclaves
(even though free access provisions exist, and Mercosul/Mercosur
border crossing enforcement is often very lax anyway).

I am not sure if I understood your reasoning, but I think what may be
puzzling you is the case of Martín García, which due to the huge size
of the River Plate estuary (Río de la Plata, in Spanish) may look on
maps to be an oceanic island. But it is a river island, just like the
other two. I have traveled to Buenos Aires by cruise ship on two
occasions, and I can assure you that it is all fresh water - and very
muddy, for that matter: it is caramel-coloured and it looks like you
are sailing on a sea of "dulce de leche" (the delicious creamy
dessert made of milk and caramelised sugar that is also very popular
in Brazil as "doce de leite" but the Argentine and Uruguayans make
much better!). The amount of sediment is so great that the shipping
channel to Buenos Aires has to be constantly dredged to remain open.

In Montevideo, Uruguay, right at the mouth of the river (and much
further downstream from Martín García), in summer people look up the
tide reports to know if they will be able to go to the local beaches
on the weekend. On some days the sea prevails and then the beaches
are common-looking oceanside ones, but on other days the river
prevails and the water is muddy and uninviting. Needless to say, you
can't see the other side from the banks. Even in front of Buenos
Aires the River Plate is 50 km (31 miles) wide, and from Montevideo
it is 93 km (58 miles) directly across to Argentina.

(DEEP SIGH of longing to go to Buenos Aires again, because it is one
of the most amazing, fantastic, incredible and charming cities on the
planet, and I mean it!!!)

> I am not sure about Isla Martin Garcia since I think that they
> might be surrounded by territorial waters of Uruguay instead of
> internal waters like in other 2 cases (which I doubt that even
> exist, I haven't found any maps or proofs).

See above for Martín García, which is a well-documented case. I had
never heard of the other two, even though I had heard of Apipé Island
(without knowing it was an exclave) because there is a large
hydroelectric dam just upstream from it, called Yaciretá-Apipé. I am
old enough to remember that while the dam was still in the planning
stage, in the 1970s, it was all over the news here, because Brazil
was building the Itaipu dam further upstream (also on the Paraguayan
border) and Argentina protested that it might reduce the river flow
and make its own dam unfeasible (it did not, though serious design
flaws and corruption made Yaciretá-Apipé cost much more and produce
much less power than intended).

Apipé Island has a stub in English-language Wikipedia, but curiously
not in the Spanish one. As for Entre Ríos Island, there is no
Wikipedia article about it in either language, but it does appear on
the "list of Argentine islands" with its coordinates; looking it up
on Google Maps, it is another large island in the Paraguay river,
downstream from Apipé.

The Spanish-language Wikipedia article on Martín García Island is
very lengthy, complete and informative. (I speak Spanish horribly,
and very little of it, but I can read it well.) Among the highlights,
the information that Martín García actually has a dry border with
Uruguay! There is a neighbouring Uruguayan island called Timoteo
Domínguez that sediments brought by the river eventually united with
Martín García, so a dry border was later agreed upon by the two
countries. However, the map on the Wikipedia article shows the
islands still separated by a narrow and apparently very shallow
channel. On Google Earth the channel appears as well; it is probably
exposed mud at low tide.

Martín García is at the exact point where the Uruguay river joins the
River Plate estuary, only about 3.3 km (2 miles) from the Uruguayan
mainland and 8.7 km from the Paraná delta islands in mainland
Argentina, but it is even closer to other Argentine mid-river islands
than to Uruguay; the island appears to be just barely within
Uruguayan waters. The Spanish article says that the island changed
hands several times over the centuries, but has been under Argentine
occupation since 1852. Not surprisingly, it was claimed by Uruguay
until very recently: the definitive treaty was only signed in 1973.
In exchange for Martín García, Uruguay received another disputed
island upstream in the Uruguay river, Juncal Island (not an enclave
or exclave, though - it is entirely in Uruguayan waters). The article
says that neither country was entirely satisfied but agreed that this
solution was a "lesser evil."

Late 19th-century Argentine dictator Domingo Sarmiento had the idea
of building a new capital city on the island, which would rule over
an Argentine empire that would include Uruguay and Paraguay. Of
course, nothing came out of it (fortunately, because it would mean
war). The city was to be called "Argirópolis" ("silver city" in
Hispanicised Greek). Given that the island is less than 2 square
kilometres in size (about the same as Monaco), it is obvious that
Sarmiento had no idea what it would take to govern such a vast
country in modern times... Lucky for the rich biodiversity on the
island, which is an ecological reserve where rare birds nest.

Another interesting point for us border buffs is that Martín García
is a *double* exclave: administratively, it belongs to the "partido"
(more or less equivalent to an American or Canadian county) of La
Plata, in Buenos Aires province. It happens that the "partido" of La
Plata, although very close to the river, is completely landlocked and
has no coast on it!

Coordinates of the islands:

Martín García: 34°11'06" S, 58°16'00" W
direct Google Maps link:  http://tinyurl.com/daxv4v

Juncal: 33°58'30" S, 58°22'48" W
direct Google Maps link:  http://tinyurl.com/c5xoc4

Apipé: 27°30'00" S, 56°54'00" W
direct Google Maps link: http://tinyurl.com/dxk7wh

Entre Ríos: 27°25'12" S, 57°30'00" W
direct Google Maps link: http://tinyurl.com/cm3fgl

English Wikipedia article on Martín García Island:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Garcia_Island

In the Spanish Wikipedia: http://tinyurl.com/c2c2vu
(I am giving it as a TinyURL because the two acute accents are
mandatory for the article to be located and it gets too long with
Unicode hex encoding.)

Web site of Martín García Island (yes, there is one - in Spanish):
http://www.islademartingarcia.com.ar/ . There is supposed to be a
picture gallery (click on "Galería de Fotos") but it returned a
server error when I tried.

English Wikipedia article on Apipé Island:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isla_Apip%C3%A9

Have fun! :-)

Goytá
São Paulo, Brazil

----- Original Message -----

From: Dallen Timothy

To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 7:28 PM

Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Argentinian exclaves

Hi Alex,

 

 

Jan Krogh’s website has some maps of these island situations. The Argentinian exclaves are the same situation as the Malawian exclaves (inside Mozambique waters).

 

Have a look at the following URLs:

 

Apipe Island  http://geosite.jankrogh.com/images/isla_apipe.jpg

Entre Rios Island (the same website) http://geosite.jankrogh.com/images/isla_apipe.jpg

Isla Martin Garcia http://geosite.jankrogh.com/images/mgarcia-colonia1.jpg

 

The Malawi exclaves can be seen at: http://geosite.jankrogh.com/malawi.htm

 

Dallen

 

---

From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kubana2005
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 2:33 PM
To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [borderpoint] Argentinian exclaves

 

Hi,
According to wikipedia, Argentine has 3 exclaves.
1. Isla Martin Garcia - surrounded by Uruguayan waters
2. Apipe island - surrounded by Paraguayan river
3. Entre Rios island - surrounded by Paraguayan river

For me, enclave has to be surrounded by internal waters in order
to be considered as an exclave, so I would like to know whether these
enclaves are indeed or if wikipedia has got a mistake. I am not
sure about Isla Martin Garcia since I think that they might be surrounded by territorial waters of Uruguay instead of internal waters like in other 2 cases (which I doubt that even exist, I haven't found any maps or proofs).

Regards, Alex

> > I've seen some of you mention Taiwan, so I am again curious
> > about your views on this issue. Can we consider Taiwan to be
> > a separate country?
>
> It is, for practical purposes, a separate country at the present
> time. Legal fictions can be created to pretend otherwise, but it
> has all the trappings of a sovereign state except UN membership.

I agree, and further agree with Lowell, who pointed out that UN
membership is not the only criterion to define a sovereign nation.
Switzerland was not a UN member until a few years ago, after all.
Taiwan is under no other government (including the PRC), issues its
own passports (which are accepted by almost all countries, even
though most avoid stamping them, so as not to indirectly recognise
Taiwan), has all the institutions of a nation.

Of course, Taiwan was lucky to have two circumstances that ensured
its survival. First there were the Cold War and the excesses of the
Mao regime, which made it convenient for the West to support Taiwan
for a long time. When things shifted toward general recognition of
the PRC, in the 1970s, Taiwan was already very, very rich, and
economic factors maintained the support for the "status quo," even if
it had to be undercover and off-the-record. The economic reforms in
the PRC eventually made it interesting even for the latter to
accomodate Taiwan and permit travel and investment (even if it has to
be via Hong Kong or Macau), because Taiwan has capital and technology
that the PRC needs.

There are elaborate rituals to trade, travel and have (unofficial)
diplomatic talks with Taiwan, but all countries always find a way
(now including the PRC). Otherwise, there would be no Acer, BenQ, VIA
Technologies (one of the world's largest and most respected producers
of computer motherboards, chipsets and netbooks), not to mention the
thousands of anonymous small Taiwanese companies that successfully
assemble and develop unbranded or OEM products (even though they are
shifting to higher quality products now). Even the Olympic Committee
lets them compete as "Chinese Taipei" alongside the PRC.

There are also many small countries that recognise Taiwan (and not
the PRC) because they are simply paid for that. I know that here in
South America, Paraguay recognises Taiwan, which invested heavily
there. The support of Pacific micronations such as Nauru was
literally bought because they all have votes in the UN. Nauru has
switched from the PRC to the ROC and back many times, as it
periodically auctioned its vote between the two...

But since Taiwan, just like the PRC, considers itself a province of
China, its Constitution has some interesting provisions. It states
that Taipei is the "provisional" capital of "China" but the official
Chinese capital (according to them) is Nanking (Nanjing, but they
still use the old Romanisation), which was the last Kuomintang
capital on the mainland. There is a provincial government of Taiwan
(although mostly decorative, more of a political statement) with its
capital in the village of Jhongsing, in the central part of the
island, but some islands that the ROC controls close to the mainland
are officially part of Fujian province (which, as we all know, is
administered by the PRC)... It sounds farcical to us (and it is), but
they take it very seriously.

For all practical purposes, however, the ROC is a separate, sovereign
nation. Other unrecognised nations fall into a dubious zone. Sorry,
Alex, but it is a fact of life that Kosovo is tending toward
increasing international recognition, as it looks more and more like
a sovereign country and is unofficially treated as such by many
countries that formally do not recognise its independence, in a
manner not unlike the way they deal with Taiwan. But Northern Cyprus
is a puppet state of Turkey. Transdnistria only exists because of
Russian support, which makes Ukraine tolerate it and Moldova try to
ignore it, because Moldova is too poor and weak to press hard on it.

But Transdnistria at least has a strong internal (and dictatorial)
government; Abkhazia is a complete Russian puppet, and South Ossetia
is becoming one. Nagorno-Karabakh is in practice part of Armenia,
even though it is internationally considered Azerbaijani territory
and purports to be an independent country. I won't even scratch the
Palestinian issue. None of them is a fully mature and established
state as Taiwan - let alone has its prosperity.

Regards,

Goytá
São Paulo, Brazil

Thank you all for replies!

As Goyta said, I was confused because I tought that rio de la Plata is actually
a sea estuary not a river, but it seems that I was wrong. Now I can add 3 more
enclaves to my enclaves list...

What about the exclave that Lowell pointed out?

As for the Malawian exclaves ,the question is whether Likoma and Chizmula
islands are 1 exclave or 2. According to some Malawian maps I have they are
connected to Malawi with a water corridor, so perhaps they are not exclaves.
There are also few islands off the coast of Tanzania which seems to be in
Malawian waters.

Regards, Alex

The problem is that even the Taiwan itself (ROC) claimes that it is part of
China, which means that even those countries that recognize ROC, don't recognize
them as independent but rather as the real China.
Remember the One China policy which is practiced both by Taiwan and Mainland
China.

Goyta, 85% of Kosovo is independent practically and recognized by 56 countries,
but I still consider it to be a NATO puppet state, since all other separatist
regions have more rights for independence then Kosovo. We will see about the
International Court of Justice opinion, because Serbia has officially ask them
to say ''whether the Kosovo's independence is in accordance with international
law''.

Palestine is not part of Israel but it is not fully independent, I consider it
as a different territory along with Western Sahara which is recognized as part
of Morocco only by Morocco.

Regards, Alex

>The problem is that even the Taiwan itself (ROC) claimes that it is
>part of China

But how much do the Taiwanese really believe this themselves now? The
problem is that renunciation of this claim is essentially a
declaration of independence, which will bring them into conflict with
the PRC (as I believe the PRC has publicly threatened to invade if
independence is declared).

>85% of Kosovo is independent practically and recognized by 56
>countries, but I still consider it to be a NATO puppet state

Without getting into the rights and wrongs of this, there have been
plenty of ostensibly sovereign states throughout history that have
the puppets of others. Nevertheless, I personally consider Kosovo to
be one of these limbo territories at the moment - not a full
sovereign nation, but not under the de-jure control of another.

>We will see about the International Court of Justice opinion,
>because Serbia has officially ask them to say ''whether the Kosovo's
>independence is in accordance with international law''.

Many territories declared independence and became sovereign nations
before the ICJ was around to give its opinion. The UK might well
question the legality of the succession of its American colonies, but
I think that argument is long lost ;-)

Regards,

Kevin Meynell

Alex wrote:

> The problem is that even the Taiwan itself (ROC) claimes that it is part
> of China, which means that even those countries that recognize ROC, don't
> recognize them as independent but rather as the real China.
> Remember the One China policy which is practiced both by Taiwan and
> Mainland China.

The problem with "One China" is that there are two different "One China"
concepts.  The essential difference is that the ROC still claims lands which
it no longer holds (the Chinese mainland, all of Mongolia, and parts of
Russia and Myanmar).  On the other hand, the territories currently held by
the ROC (Taiwan, and various smaller islands) have been under continuous ROC
sovereignty since before the PRC was established in 1949.  Taiwan had been
taken by Japan from imperial China in 1895 and was surrendered in 1945 to
the ROC--at the time the ONLY China, having succeeded the Qing Dynasty in
1911.

Thus, the ROC's claims to the mainland are as a pretender based on the past,
but the PRC's claims to Taiwan are as a would-be future usurper.

Pretense to sovereignty over territory long-since lost hardly diminishes
sovereignty over territory still held.  For how many centuries did the
British monarchs claim sovereignty over "Great Britain, FRANCE, and Ireland"
(reflecting a pretense to the long-lost lands of their Norman ancestors)?

Lowell G. McManus
Eagle Pass, Texas, USA

I just posted an aerial photo of the island and it's pretty water in a folder in
the photo library here, for those of you who can't imagine what Goyta was
referring to.

LN

> I just posted an aerial photo of the island and it's pretty water
> in a folder in the photo library here, for those of you who can't
> imagine what Goyta was referring to.

The water is less reddish than that in real life, but then I only saw
the River Plate downstream from there, and maybe the Uruguay river
(which is the main source of the waters at the point where Martín
García is located) is more reddish.

The picture actually shows more of Timoteo Domínguez Island
(Uruguay). Martín García is on the background. One can see the
dividing channel between the two islands and I wonder if it really
dries up at low tide and thus creates the only land border between
Uruguay and Argentina.

Regards,

Goytá

I have just uploaded a satellite photo of Río de la Plata and
surrounding areas to the group's Photos area on Yahoo. It is
basically the picture found on the Wikipedia article on the estuary,
which I reoriented to get closer to a North-South position, cropped
and, most importantly, annotated, including Martín García Island.
Judging from the colour of the waters at Montevideo, I suppose the
(ocean) tide was turning to ebb when the picture was taken.

I hope you enjoy it.

Regards,

Goytá
São Paulo, Brazil