Hmm. On longevity. One of the only benefits of growing older (old?)at 62 is that
the longevity I need is greatly reduced LOL!
Bob

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
> > I am up to around $1100 much to my horror
>
> Consider the option to expensive wood.  The longevity of my boats
> doesn't need to be eternal.  My luaun plywood/HomeDepot lumber boats
> have lasted at least ten years, longer if stored in a dry place.
> Costs of a Spur II
>
> 6 sheets of luaun plywood = $150
> Framing lumber = $50
> Glass, epoxy  = $150
> Sandpaper, and misc. = $150
>
> $500 for materials in a Spur II
>

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Peter <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Then, after you had built the frame & station
> > > bulkheads, and templates made of the expanded strakes,
> > > I am willing to
> > > bet you could churn out a second boat in 40 hours or even faster.
> >
> > I'm not a builder, even as an amateur, but that seems pretty optimistic to,
even if you leave out the time required to obtain the materials, sharpen the
tools, etc.
> >
>
>
> I say 40 hours after building the similar lapstrake rowboat "Cartoon
> 5" in 40 manhours.  It lacks a degree of fit and finish, but it still
> is a great rowboat.
>
> Here is a photo album of that build...
>
> http://community.webshots.com/album/360982713bZwutE
>
So I guess you don't count building frames, a jig, and templates into the cost
of a boat ?
Speed of construction is not the only thing that counts in boat building. Fit
and finish do count , as do quality materials and construction techniques.

> So I guess you don't count building frames,
> a jig, and templates into the cost of a boat ?

It was clear in the original post that the building mold, and plank templates,
etc, were considered sunk costs, i.e. not included in the time estimate. And,
the original post was only about the elapsed time of building, not about what
might be included in a fair market price for the finished boat (which should
include some shop overhead which would include shop-made molds and templates as
well as heat, light, rent, and store-bought tools).

My remark about time obtaining supplies and sharpening tools was meant to
suggest that the "time per additional boat" needed some hours of getting ready
before the work could actually start.

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 6:48 AM, Walter <walter@...> wrote:
>

> > http://community.webshots.com/album/360982713bZwutE
> >
> So I guess you don't count building frames, a jig, and templates into the cost
of a boat ?
> Speed of construction is not the only thing that counts in boat building. Fit
and finish do count , as do quality materials and construction techniques.

I agree that fit and finish do count!  And, that is a double edged
sword.  Museum quality boats can take hundreds of hours and thousands
of dollars.  'rough' quality can take much less.  The numerous craft
defects in my 40 hour quick and dirty lapstrake build (see above) do
not matter at all to the water in the lake.  Now, 4 years later, that
boat is still fully functional and one of my favorites.

As to the frame and templates, the construction method specified by
Bolger in the Spur II design involves having the permanent frames
being sacrificial template frames that remain permanently in the boat.
  The jig backbone is a pair of 2x6's (included in the $50 of lumber)
which you later rip into strips and use on the seats and sheerline
gunnels.

If I were to build these boats for sale in multiple copies, I think
that time could be saved by having a permanent frame/backbone and by
having the expanded strakes be hard templates. This could save several
hours of measuring.

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 6:48 AM, Walter <walter@...> wrote:
> >
>
> > > http://community.webshots.com/album/360982713bZwutE
> > >
> > So I guess you don't count building frames, a jig, and templates into the
cost of a boat ?
> > Speed of construction is not the only thing that counts in boat building.
Fit and finish do count , as do quality materials and construction techniques.
>
> I agree that fit and finish do count!  And, that is a double edged
> sword.  Museum quality boats can take hundreds of hours and thousands
> of dollars.  'rough' quality can take much less.  The numerous craft
> defects in my 40 hour quick and dirty lapstrake build (see above) do
> not matter at all to the water in the lake.  Now, 4 years later, that
> boat is still fully functional and one of my favorites.
>
> As to the frame and templates, the construction method specified by
> Bolger in the Spur II design involves having the permanent frames
> being sacrificial template frames that remain permanently in the boat.
>  The jig backbone is a pair of 2x6's (included in the $50 of lumber)
> which you later rip into strips and use on the seats and sheerline
> gunnels.
>
> If I were to build these boats for sale in multiple copies, I think
> that time could be saved by having a permanent frame/backbone and by
> having the expanded strakes be hard templates. This could save several
> hours of measuring.
>
All I am trying to say is that there is a lot more than materials costs and
hours of labor involved in making a living building boats. I have been doing it
for over 30 years, I wish it were as simple as materials and labor. I started to
write a response which included an explanation of the actual business of boat
building, but soon realized that it would take many hours and many pages. So
have fun building and speculating on building boats.

I saw the AS29 Island time in the photos section.
I searched posts for island time but did not find any info for the boat.

Is the builder present on the list? Can you ad some completed photos and tell
how she sails and helms?

Is this a modified AS29 or built from plan?
Very interesting boat, I hope your happy with it.

Northern Hydraulics light boat trailer, should fit a lot of small Bolger
boats. Free shipping right now.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_1063_1063

Thinking strongly of getting one myself.

HJ

The one thing I know about building wooden boats for a living is that it
is an avocation not a vocation. Its is something you want to or are even
driven to do. It is not the way to fame and fortune. My father was a
classically trained Master ship wright. Building small cruising boats
was a joy to him and he built a bunch but he made a living in the
Industrial yards and and yards like Lester Stones  in the Bay area that
built for the rich.

On the subject of speed, the pros of that era (pre and post world war II
) were incredibly fast at producing very high level wood work and with
out hand power tools.  I remember my brother and father putting the hull
of a 16' skiboat together in a week end with the only power tool a
bandsaw running on a Brigs & Stratton. I think about that as I plod
slowly along with almost every known power tool to man in my shop.

HJ

On 4/28/2011 7:14 AM, Walter wrote:
>>
>>> So I guess you don't count building frames, a jig, and templates into the
cost of a boat ?
>>> Speed of construction is not the only thing that counts in boat building.
Fit and finish do count , as do quality materials and construction techniques.
>> I agree that fit and finish do count!  And, that is a double edged
>> sword.  Museum quality boats can take hundreds of hours and thousands
>> of dollars.  'rough' quality can take much less.  The numerous craft
>> defects in my 40 hour quick and dirty lapstrake build (see above) do
>> not matter at all to the water in the lake.  Now, 4 years later, that
>> boat is still fully functional and one of my favorites.
>>
>> As to the frame and templates, the construction method specified by
>> Bolger in the Spur II design involves having the permanent frames
>> being sacrificial template frames that remain permanently in the boat.
>>   The jig backbone is a pair of 2x6's (included in the $50 of lumber)
>> which you later rip into strips and use on the seats and sheerline
>> gunnels.
>>
>> If I were to build these boats for sale in multiple copies, I think
>> that time could be saved by having a permanent frame/backbone and by
>> having the expanded strakes be hard templates. This could save several
>> hours of measuring.
>>
> All I am trying to say is that there is a lot more than materials costs and
hours of labor involved in making a living building boats. I have been doing it
for over 30 years, I wish it were as simple as materials and labor. I started to
write a response which included an explanation of the actual business of boat
building, but soon realized that it would take many hours and many pages. So
have fun building and speculating on building boats.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!  Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo!
Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Harry's comments were noted by PCB as regards to the skills of old time boatbuilders who, without the aid of small handheld power tools, were able to work very fast on demanding boat carpentry projects and complete boat more quickly than most of us could imagine today.
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld

I would suggest that if you ever have the opportunity to visit a small
builder do so. There is a lot more to it than the construction itself. I
have visited a few over the years including Dynamite himself and it is a
real eye-opener.

For one thing just how fast and accurately they can work and the other
thing how low their actual profit is at the end of the day. Ideally you
need a full-time go-fer, clean-up and shop slave as well in order to
concentrate on doing what you are most skilled at doing and a wife that
has strong book-keeping and organizational ability. Shop space to have
several builds going at one time and secure storage space for the
materials, completed hulls etc.

Nels

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Walter" <walter@...> wrote:

> All I am trying to say is that there is a lot more than materials
costs and hours of labor involved in making a living building boats. I
have been doing it for over 30 years, I wish it were as simple as
materials and labor. I started to write a response which included an
explanation of the actual business of boat building, but soon realized
that it would take many hours and many pages. So have fun building and
speculating on building boats.
>

$460 would buy you 3 serviceable used trailers off Craigslist if you're patient. At least it would in my neck of the woods.

Best,

Joe

---

From: Harry James <welshman@...>
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Cheap trailer

 

Northern Hydraulics light boat trailer, should fit a lot of small Bolger
boats. Free shipping right now.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_1063_1063

Thinking strongly of getting one myself.

HJ

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 12:55 PM, Joseph Stromski
<j.stromski@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> $460 would buy you 3 serviceable used trailers off Craigslist if you're
patient. At least it would in my neck of the woods.
> Best,
> Joe
>

And, were I live, those three used trailers would have junker boats on
them.  You can have the trailer for cheap, but the dump site charges
$300 to take the junk boat as landfill.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Temporary/

Here's a rowboat Phil designed for himself and later offered in SBJ
#77,  replying to a request for boats built in series for good rowers
that could weigh 50 pounds and be built in 50 hours each.

A beautiful thing, the construction is plywood carvel. Narrow strips
of 1/4" make up many chines. No tape, both inside and out are glassed
to your liking.

   For building time, he was clear you couldn't do a one off in fifty
hours, but that well set up, 10 in 500 or 3 in 150 hours was
certainly possible, and mentioned getting under 80 pounds requires
4mm lapstrake.

I doubt many boats built lapstrake with minimal beveling and lots of
putty are particularly salable. But the Tom Hill method with a guide
strip on the jig allows high grade wood and sharp planes to fly at a
very  great rate.

As a less fragile alternative, June Bug was proposed.

With a small car, what I liked about my own little Harbor Freight
utility trailer was the lightness. Even with a tongue extension and
the 12" wheels, it came in under 200 pounds.


On Apr 28, 2011, at 12:55 PM, Joseph Stromski wrote:

> $460 would buy you 3 serviceable used trailers off Craigslist if
> you're patient. At least it would in my neck of the woods.
> Best,
> Joe

same here the really cheap trailers run $600-800 for the utility trailers ever
so occasionally someone does not want to finish a home built but by the time you
do the paper work for a home built NH is cheaper

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
>
> All in where you live
>
> On our Craigs list there are 3 want to buys for boat trailers.
>
> SE AK.
>
> HJ
>
> On 4/28/2011 11:55 AM, Joseph Stromski wrote:
> >
> >
> > $460 would buy you 3 serviceable used trailers off Craigslist if
> > you're patient. At least it would in my neck of the woods.
> > Best,
> > Joe
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:* Harry James <welshman@...>
> > *To:* bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 28, 2011 1:01 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [bolger] Cheap trailer
> >
> > Northern Hydraulics light boat trailer, should fit a lot of small Bolger
> > boats. Free shipping right now.
> >
> > http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_1063_1063
> >
> > Thinking strongly of getting one myself.
> >
> > HJ
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Hi Bruce,

> And, were I live, those three used trailers would have junker boats on
> them.  You can have the trailer for cheap, but the dump site charges
> $300 to take the junk boat as landfill.

Same here, but it might be possible to get a charity to take the boat, although
I've never tried it.  They might balk if it doesn't have a trailer, but it's
worth a phone call.

Jon

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Hugo Tyson <hhetyson@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Bruce Hallman made the comment:
>
> "The first one might take 100 hours, (I would take a bet I could do it
> in 60 hours). Then, after you had built the frame & station
> bulkheads, and templates made of the expanded strakes, I am willing to
> bet you could churn out a second boat in 40 hours or even faster."
>
> This may be true; but if it turned out looking like that cheap 3mm? bent sheer
version of Spur II you built a few years ago I honestly think you would have to
pay someone to take it off your hands. I know you built that one extra fast,
over a weekend I recall?  It was functional to be sure, as we've seen pictures
of it on the water, but seriously nobody would pay someone to built a boat extra
fast to that standard with virtually no re-sale value and dubious longevity!? Is
it still around or has it disintergrated?.
>

I welcome the criticism of that Spur II, and it is spot on.  I am
reminded that it was my first attempt, shameless self education in the
lapstrake construction method.  It suffered because I had no idea back
then how to spile, or loft expanded strakes.  Neither then did I
understand the benefit of using a lofted mold for intermediate frames.
  The 'bent sheer version" you describe was because I had no clue how
to build lapstrake on that first boat.  I did though learn a lot
building that boat, and that is what I has set out to do with that
project.

Since, I have lofted hundreds of boats and built several more, and
dozens of models.  I think I have learned even more about lofting and
could build another in much less time and much more "correctly"
shaped.  (The water doesn't care, but people's eyes do care.)

The last time a checked (about a year ago) that Spur II had required
one repair where two strakes had separated, but with that repair that
boat was still going strong, nine years old.

I also hear you about people in the market for a lapstrake boat
wanting good looks and best materials.  (They also usually want cheap
price.)  Those two desires conflict.

Greyfax, the Tyson built Spur II  is the nicest looking pulling boat I
have ever seen.

http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/Tysonsbolgerboats/

Nels

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Hugo Tyson hhetyson@... wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Bruce Hallman made the comment:
> >
> > "The first one might take 100 hours, (I would take a bet I could do
it
> > in 60 hours). Then, after you had built the frame & station
> > bulkheads, and templates made of the expanded strakes, I am willing
to
> > bet you could churn out a second boat in 40 hours or even faster."

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Temporary/

> As a less fragile alternative, June Bug was proposed.

That deadrise shape - why not ply sheet chine v-bottom then? Let's say
Poohsticks, what about that?

And

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/SpurII%20Bruce%20Tyson/

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> Greyfax, the Tyson built Spur II  is the nicest looking pulling boat I
> have ever seen.
>
> http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/Tysonsbolgerboats/
>
> Nels

> Running a straight edge between the keel and lower edge of the sheer
> strake gives less displacement, or, to compensate, a wider, higher
> sided, and probably heavier boat.

Not much less displacement. V for speed building the instant way. Foam sandwich
for lightness and strength of either. V bottom will track much better.

Second that . . .


--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> Greyfax, the Tyson built Spur II  is the nicest looking pulling boat I
> have ever seen.
>
> http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/Tysonsbolgerboats/
>
> Nels
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, BruceHallman <hallman@> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Hugo Tyson hhetyson@ wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bruce Hallman made the comment:
> > >
> > > "The first one might take 100 hours, (I would take a bet I could do
> it
> > > in 60 hours). Then, after you had built the frame & station
> > > bulkheads, and templates made of the expanded strakes, I am willing
> to
> > > bet you could churn out a second boat in 40 hours or even faster."
>

The only info I can add about this AS29 (modified) is that the boat appears (as
of 2009 to be located on a trailer in a field in Kansas.  The builder (Tom)
mentioned on another forum in late 2009 that he had sailed and cruised her along
the east coast of the US and Florida Keys.
http://frommars.smugmug.com/Other/Island-Time/11074751_7p5KX#775385279_8QcoQ

If you find anything else, please share here.

Bill, in Texas

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "slrrls2000" <slrrls2000@...> wrote:
>
> I saw the AS29 Island time in the photos section.
> I searched posts for island time but did not find any info for the boat.
>
> Is the builder present on the list? Can you ad some completed photos and tell
how she sails and helms?
>
> Is this a modified AS29 or built from plan?
> Very interesting boat, I hope your happy with it.
>