Graeme,
Doubling or trippling the bottom will only help righting on
a boat that is not flooded.  Once the boat is filled, all that plywood
becomes flotation and will have the opposite effect.  I think you need
some dense weight down there, lead, steel, at least epoxy filled with
something heavy.  Then extra flotation to make sure you don't go right
to the bottom! 8^D

Sincerely,

"A house ashore is but a boat, so poorly
   built it will not float ---- "

----- Original Message ----
From: graeme19121984 <graeme19121984@...>
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 11:49:25 PM
Subject: [bolger] How would Mr Bolger update Cynthia J?

The designer got around to Otter ll himself, but to my knowledge
hasn't and is, I suppose, unlikely to get around to CynthiaJ ll. So,
guided by study of developments of other PCB&F designs over the
years, how would Cynthia J be improved/modified? Modified, that is,
to be a bit more suited to pursuits other than just pond picnic
daysailing with a gaggle of fun, kids, and family aboard. To really
be self rescueing at the least.



RIG.
PCB&F wrote, when considering the Beach Cat design, of the issues
some have nowadays with the long footed gaff cat rig. I'd like to
keep the basic long foot rig to try it for fast and weatherly, but
there may be other worthwhile modifications. How about a Camper, or
other tabernacle; or a Wandervogel vang for instance?

Place a stop on the mast to bear its weight at the partner and not
the floor, and so eliminate both the doubling of the bottom member
of frame #1 and the through-hull bolt located there.

Place halyards cleat on the mast and eliminate their compressive
load transference that required the strengthening floor bolt in the
first place.



BOTTOM.
Double or triple plywood layer. This should allow removal of most of
the bottom shoes, and also the irksome inside bottom stiffening
cleats that muck up a lovely flat cuddy floor for lying on.

Sheath bottom in fibreglass before fixing bottom shoes etc.

Will this be stiff enough?



BOUYANCY/BALLAST.
As the flooded boat is reported difficult to get to remain upright,
and impossible to do so with the rig in place, these aspects need
attention. The increased bottom thickness already mentioned will
help put weight where needed, but is it enough? Transferring
flotation situated down low, as per the underseat foam blocks, to a
higher location also should help, but again is it enough?

Also as in the changes from Otter to Otter ll, watertight
compartmentalisation seems required. The cuddy should be very flood
resistant, or watertight. Altering Frame #1 to a watertight bulkhead
will have very little effect on cuddy space. There's still enough to
lie down in. The space in front of the then Bulkhead #1 should
perhaps then be made a free draining flooded well? And perhaps the
large triangular foam block there in the bow could be done away
with?

Bulkhead #3 needs altering by filling in the swinging cuddy doors
and replacing with cuddy access much higher up. Duckboard in the
bulkhead with decktop sliding hatch; or just a deck hatch, perhaps
hinged?

Box-in the entire space aft of the cockpit seats from floor to rails
and make a huge bouyancy/storage compartment with top hatch access.
It may be more convenient to shorten the seats and box-in aft from
Frame #4 ( how many people are to be carried anyway? You won't be
able to stretch out on the cockpit floor any more, but a great
galley box and cooler could be built into the forward side of that
aft compartment.). Offset the rudder to allow a small outboard
mounted on the transom. Recess the end of the compartment in way of
the outboard.

Fix foam blocks under aft compartment deck, and foam sheet under
fore part of cuddy deck as insurance.

Use two ballast sandbags; one beneath each seat, both shifted to
windward side when under sail.

LEEBOARDS.
I'd be inclined to try assymetrics, even though it seems PCB doesn't
think they're needed. They'd be even easier to shape, assuming the
designed ones are not merely flat plates

YULOH.
Leave the outboard at home, take a yuloh and Cynthia J may just be a
very competitive Everglades Challenge short course entrant. What do
you think?

What else could be done, or needs doing?

Graeme

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/CynthiaJ/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/Cynthia%20J/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Cynthia%
20J./









Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!  Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978)
282-1349
- Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jon,

Don't give me that! I know for certain that I answered an email.
Early 2005, I think it was <G>  Seriously, if I've been slow to
respond, I apologize. Life is hectic these days. We're still inching
forward with the sailing rig for our Goat Island Skiff. I completed
the tiller & stock this week (except for paint/varnish). We have all
3 spars tapered, and started turning them into 8-sided Wed. nite.
See you soon.

Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR

"We do not change as we grow older; we just become more clearly
ourselves" -- Lynn Hall

******************

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
wrote:
>
> Hell David I live across the Columbia from you and can't get you
to
> answer a E-mail. LOL I also like to know what part of the world
> people are in for simalor reasons. That is why we have our profile
> filled out even if it has been awhile from last update. Would be
nice
> if everyone filled out there profile but David can use a cartoon
pic.
>
> Jon

Has anyone built a black gauntlet II recently?  I was just wondering
how it handles and whether it could be used as an open water vessel.
I know open water is kind of a vague term and a lot depends on the
skill of the sailor.  But lets say I wanted to make the winter trip
from Gloucester, MA to St Croix (after the fall storm season is over).
  I was originally thinking of a breakdown schooner for this, but the
gauntlet has recently caught my eye.  Of course I still have 14 years
till I retire, so there is plenty of time for me to change my mind again.

Thanks
Steven

Go ahead and build it,

Take pictures

Take me sailing, I love the looks

HJ

Steven DAntonio wrote:
> Has anyone built a black gauntlet II recently?  I was just wondering
> how it handles and whether it could be used as an open water vessel.
> I know open water is kind of a vague term and a lot depends on the
> skill of the sailor.  But lets say I wanted to make the winter trip
> from Gloucester, MA to St Croix (after the fall storm season is over).
>  I was originally thinking of a breakdown schooner for this, but the
> gauntlet has recently caught my eye.  Of course I still have 14 years
> till I retire, so there is plenty of time for me to change my mind again.
>
> Thanks
> Steven
>
>
>

Steven,

I would want four questions answered before I departed coastal waters.

First, is the ballast sufficient to right the boat after a knockdown?
It is embarrassing to capsize in Cape Cod Bay, but life threatening in
the Gulf Stream.  Second, is the structure sufficient to hold together
in a heavy sea?  Third, If a wave breaks on the cockpit, how much will
get inside?  Fourth, will the leeboards take the abuse?  These are all
reasonable questions for PCB&F since you must buy the plans from them
anyway.

Personally, I would be very nervous about this.  This is mostly because
the lightest vessel I have done this in displaced about 4 times what
this one does.

V/R
Chris

Steven DAntonio wrote:
> Has anyone built a black gauntlet II recently?  I was just wondering
> how it handles and whether it could be used as an open water vessel.
> I know open water is kind of a vague term and a lot depends on the
> skill of the sailor.  But lets say I wanted to make the winter trip
> from Gloucester, MA to St Croix (after the fall storm season is over).
>  I was originally thinking of a breakdown schooner for this, but the
> gauntlet has recently caught my eye.  Of course I still have 14 years
> till I retire, so there is plenty of time for me to change my mind again.
>
> Thanks
> Steven
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!  Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> an open water vessel.

Have you considered Romp, in BWAOM?  About the same size and energy to
build,  but Bolger talks about her open sea capability.  Don't be
afraid of the strip plank construction.

http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/index.html

The wooden boat rescue foundation had a Black Gauntlet available for
'free' a while back.

http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/carview.php?view=98

NB This is the original version, the Black Gauntlet l.


--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.woodenboatrescue.org/index.html
>
> The wooden boat rescue foundation had a Black Gauntlet available for
> 'free' a while back.
>

Was wondering how difficult it would be to change the keel from the
one designed for it to a box type filled with concrete? Messing around
with the lead is a bit more than I want to fool with.

Hi there.  I don't know about concrete but I have heard of a few people using
lead shot encased in epoxy.  This eliminates melting of the lead...but you have
to make the keel a little longer or thicker to account for the decrease in
density of the epoxy.  Robb
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: dustymick64
   To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 6:31 PM
   Subject: [bolger] Keel on the Micro


   Was wondering how difficult it would be to change the keel from the
   one designed for it to a box type filled with concrete? Messing around
   with the lead is a bit more than I want to fool with.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi

Go to http://www.smallcraftadvisor.com/ and look around.  You can
subscribe on-line if you decide you want it.  I saw it first at the
2004 Port Townsend show and thought it looked good -- right kind of
boats and a local mag.

We'll be clearing customs next July 13 (Friday the 13th!) at Roche
on our way to Sucia -- join us then?

Cheers,

Jamie

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
>
> I'm not far from Roche Harbor and the aircraft that
> leave the airport there east bound fly over where I
> live.
>
> I have not made up my mind about what to build but I
> have a couple of small boat projects that may get done
> first. Making a hard bottom for the Sea Eagle
> inflatable does sound like a good idea then maybe give
> it back to my Dad as a gift.
>
> I have no idea where to find Small Craft Advisor is it
> here in the northwest?
>
>
> Blessings Krissie
>
> --- Jamie Orr <jas_orr@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi Kristine,
> >
> > If you're six miles from Vancouver Island, I guess
> > I'm about six
> > miles away from you.  I live in Victoria and sail a
> > Chebacco -- we
> > get over to the San Juans about twice a year in her.
> >  Whereabouts in
> > the islands are you?
> >
> > I saw John K's reply with the Sucia rendezvous URL,
> > but that
> > bypasses another small boat rendezvous you might be
> > interested in.
> > Try going to http://www.members.shaw.ca/jamie.orr/
> > and see both
> > rendezvous.
> >
> > (Both gatherings are written up in the Nov/Dec issue
> > of Small Craft
> > Advisor, which just came out.  If you don't already
> > subscribe, you
> > should try it, and not just for the article
> > mentioned.)
> >
> > Hope to see you on the water sometime!
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Jamie Orr
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

The difference in weight will make a difference in the power to carry
sail. Check this, but I think lead weighs about 5 times more than
concrete.

Often, people find that, well prepared, lead is not so horrible to
do. My own little experiments with a few pounds went pretty well.
It's amazing how easily it melts.

They say a little antimony helps later with machining it.

If you wanted to skip the keel entirely and if it they'd work for
your cruising ground, either the recently mentioned Cynrthia J or Jim
M's Musicbox2 would be similar, straight sided alternatives.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/CynthiaJ/
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/musicbox2/index.htm

Mark


On Oct 6, 2006, at 3:31 PM, dustymick64 wrote:

> Was wondering how difficult it would be to change the keel from the
> one designed for it to a box type filled with concrete? Messing around
> with the lead is a bit more than I want to fool with.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!  Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

One of the boats I am working on is a Sam Devlin Winter Wren and it
gives two keel options - cast lead or lead weights set in cement.  I
plan to use the latter with wheel weights as the lead, packed into the
keel box then filled with portland cement.  This does not result in the
same amount of ballast - 500 pounds vs 700 for cast lead - but some
simple adjustment in size should provide proper ballast on a micro

Paul H.

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "dustymick64" <dustymick64@...> wrote:
>
> Was wondering how difficult it would be to change the keel from the
> one designed for it to a box type filled with concrete? Messing
around
> with the lead is a bit more than I want to fool with.
>

A few pounds melts easily but large amounts get progressively
harder.  For the Super Brick I was melting weights to make the the
ballast for the rudder.  Small pots - 8 pounds or so each - took a
long time with a hot plate.  For the larger weight on the bilge
board I am looking for a high powered propane burner, I am thinking
about a unit designed for turkey frying.

And pure lead is very hard to machine well.  It is very soft and
tends to deform rather than cut or shape.  I know antimony was often
added to the casting blocks I used years ago for making bullets.
Its supposed to make the lead harder which should help machining
greatly.

Paul H

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka@...> wrote:
>
> The difference in weight will make a difference in the power to
carry
> sail. Check this, but I think lead weighs about 5 times more than
> concrete.
>
> Often, people find that, well prepared, lead is not so horrible
to
> do. My own little experiments with a few pounds went pretty well.
> It's amazing how easily it melts.
>
> They say a little antimony helps later with machining it.
>
> If you wanted to skip the keel entirely and if it they'd work for
> your cruising ground, either the recently mentioned Cynrthia J or
Jim
> M's Musicbox2 would be similar, straight sided alternatives.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/CynthiaJ/
> http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/musicbox2/index.htm
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Oct 6, 2006, at 3:31 PM, dustymick64 wrote:
>
> > Was wondering how difficult it would be to change the keel from
the
> > one designed for it to a box type filled with concrete? Messing
around
> > with the lead is a bit more than I want to fool with.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!  Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
flogging
> > dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
Fred'
> > posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Paul,
I found that a simple Coleman propane camp stove melted the lead in a galvanized
bucket just fine.  Did 100 pounds of wheel weights and lead shot with less than
1 16 oz tank.  I did the 100 lbs twice for a Single Handed Schooner.  The first
one bulged on me and  there was no way to shave it down to shape.  Melting the
100 lb block with propane torches was a real chore, dirpping it into the
buckets....  The second form was better plywood with reinforcements added...

Sincerely,
Gene T.
"A house ashore is but a boat, so poorly
   built it will not float ---- "

----- Original Message ----
From: Paul <p_hardy@...>
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 6, 2006 9:24:03 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Keel on the Micro













             A few pounds melts easily but large amounts get progressively

harder.  For the Super Brick I was melting weights to make the the

ballast for the rudder.  Small pots - 8 pounds or so each - took a

long time with a hot plate.  For the larger weight on the bilge

board I am looking for a high powered propane burner, I am thinking

about a unit designed for turkey frying.



And pure lead is very hard to machine well.  It is very soft and

tends to deform rather than cut or shape.  I know antimony was often

added to the casting blocks I used years ago for making bullets.

Its supposed to make the lead harder which should help machining

greatly.



Paul H



--- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, Mark Albanese <marka@...> wrote:

>

> The difference in weight will make a difference in the power to

carry

> sail. Check this, but I think lead weighs about 5 times more than

> concrete.

>

> Often, people find that, well prepared, lead is not so horrible

to

> do. My own little experiments with a few pounds went pretty well.

> It's amazing how easily it melts.

>

> They say a little antimony helps later with machining it.

>

> If you wanted to skip the keel entirely and if it they'd work for

> your cruising ground, either the recently mentioned Cynrthia J or

Jim

> M's Musicbox2 would be similar, straight sided alternatives.

>

> http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/bolger/ files/CynthiaJ/

> http://www.duckwork sbbs.com/ plans/jim/ musicbox2/ index.htm

>

> Mark

>

>

> On Oct 6, 2006, at 3:31 PM, dustymick64 wrote:

>

> > Was wondering how difficult it would be to change the keel from

the

> > one designed for it to a box type filled with concrete? Messing

around

> > with the lead is a bit more than I want to fool with.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Bolger rules!!!

> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!  Please!

> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or

flogging

> > dead horses

> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,

Fred'

> > posts

> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip

away

> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,

> > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349

> > - Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com

> > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_ lounge-subscribe @yahoogroups. com

> > Yahoo! Groups Links

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>














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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Maybe I will try a camp stove rather than the turkey cooker.  The
electric hotplate is what I used for bullet making so I tried it
first with poor results.

If all goes well, I will be pouring the bilge board ballast in the
next week.

Paul H

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Gene T." <goldranger02-boats@...>
wrote:
>
> Paul,
> I found that a simple Coleman propane camp stove melted the lead
in a galvanized bucket just fine.  Did 100 pounds of wheel weights
and lead shot with less than 1 16 oz tank.  I did the 100 lbs twice
for a Single Handed Schooner.  The first one bulged on me and  there
was no way to shave it down to shape.  Melting the 100 lb block with
propane torches was a real chore, dirpping it into the buckets....
The second form was better plywood with reinforcements added...
>
> Sincerely,
> Gene T.
> "A house ashore is but a boat, so poorly
>   built it will not float ---- "
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Paul <p_hardy@...>
> To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, October 6, 2006 9:24:03 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Keel on the Micro
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>             A few pounds melts easily but large amounts get
progressively
>
> harder.  For the Super Brick I was melting weights to make the the
>
> ballast for the rudder.  Small pots - 8 pounds or so each - took a
>
> long time with a hot plate.  For the larger weight on the bilge
>
> board I am looking for a high powered propane burner, I am
thinking
>
> about a unit designed for turkey frying.
>
>
>
> And pure lead is very hard to machine well.  It is very soft and
>
> tends to deform rather than cut or shape.  I know antimony was
often
>
> added to the casting blocks I used years ago for making bullets.
>
> Its supposed to make the lead harder which should help machining
>
> greatly.
>
>
>
> Paul H
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, Mark Albanese <marka@> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > The difference in weight will make a difference in the power to
>
> carry
>
> > sail. Check this, but I think lead weighs about 5 times more
than
>
> > concrete.
>
> >
>
> > Often, people find that, well prepared, lead is not so horrible
>
> to
>
> > do. My own little experiments with a few pounds went pretty
well.
>
> > It's amazing how easily it melts.
>
> >
>
> > They say a little antimony helps later with machining it.
>
> >
>
> > If you wanted to skip the keel entirely and if it they'd work
for
>
> > your cruising ground, either the recently mentioned Cynrthia J
or
>
> Jim
>
> > M's Musicbox2 would be similar, straight sided alternatives.
>
> >
>
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/bolger/ files/CynthiaJ/
>
> > http://www.duckwork sbbs.com/ plans/jim/ musicbox2/ index.htm
>
> >
>
> > Mark
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On Oct 6, 2006, at 3:31 PM, dustymick64 wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > Was wondering how difficult it would be to change the keel
from
>
> the
>
> > > one designed for it to a box type filled with concrete?
Messing
>
> around
>
> > > with the lead is a bit more than I want to fool with.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Bolger rules!!!
>
> > > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!  Please!
>
> > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
>
> flogging
>
> > > dead horses
>
> > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
>
> Fred'
>
> > > posts
>
> > > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
>
> away
>
> > > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>
> > > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>
> > > - Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com
>
> > > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_ lounge-subscribe
@yahoogroups. com
>
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>

Dusty I don't think it would be that hard but the
thing you are going to need to keep in mind is,
concrete looses about half it mass when it is in salt
water.

It you have a 2000 lb block of the stuff and hang it
by a scale in seawater it would be just over 1000 lbs.
I was told this by a number of people that set
moorings here in the islands.

To support this concrete with stone is 120 to 150 lbs
per cubic ft. and seawater is 64 lbs per cubic ft.


So with that said if you need 300 lbs of lead you are
going to need 600 lbs of crete at the same place from
the CoB. You could get away with less if you made the
keel deeper so it would have a longer lever arm from
CoB.

Krissie

--- dustymick64 <dustymick64@...> wrote:

> Was wondering how difficult it would be to change
> the keel from the
> one designed for it to a box type filled with
> concrete? Messing around
> with the lead is a bit more than I want to fool
> with.
>
>
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

There may be a better way yet. Use steel plate, 1" is
40.8 lbs per sq.ft. 1 1/4" is 51 lbs per sq.ft. 1 1/2"
is 61.2 lbs per sq.ft and 2" is 81.6 lbs per sq.ft.

And the nice thing most steel warehouses will cut the
plate to your drawings

Krissie

--- dustymick64 <dustymick64@...> wrote:

> Was wondering how difficult it would be to change
> the keel from the
> one designed for it to a box type filled with
> concrete? Messing around
> with the lead is a bit more than I want to fool
> with.
>
>
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

I would love to but no boat at this time that has a
running OB. But let me know when you are going to be
at Roche and I'll enjoy meeting you after you clear
customs.

Just look for a tall woman walking a malamute. After
you clear.

or call me on my cel phone when you are at roche.

Blessings Krissie

--- Jamie Orr <jas_orr@...> wrote:

> Hi
>
> Go to http://www.smallcraftadvisor.com/ and look
> around.  You can
> subscribe on-line if you decide you want it.  I saw
> it first at the
> 2004 Port Townsend show and thought it looked good
> -- right kind of
> boats and a local mag.
>
> We'll be clearing customs next July 13 (Friday the
> 13th!) at Roche
> on our way to Sucia -- join us then?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jamie
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett
> <femmpaws@...> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not far from Roche Harbor and the aircraft
> that
> > leave the airport there east bound fly over where
> I
> > live.
> >
> > I have not made up my mind about what to build but
> I
> > have a couple of small boat projects that may get
> done
> > first. Making a hard bottom for the Sea Eagle
> > inflatable does sound like a good idea then maybe
> give
> > it back to my Dad as a gift.
> >
> > I have no idea where to find Small Craft Advisor
> is it
> > here in the northwest?
> >
> >
> > Blessings Krissie
> >
> > --- Jamie Orr <jas_orr@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Kristine,
> > >
> > > If you're six miles from Vancouver Island, I
> guess
> > > I'm about six
> > > miles away from you.  I live in Victoria and
> sail a
> > > Chebacco -- we
> > > get over to the San Juans about twice a year in
> her.
> > >  Whereabouts in
> > > the islands are you?
> > >
> > > I saw John K's reply with the Sucia rendezvous
> URL,
> > > but that
> > > bypasses another small boat rendezvous you might
> be
> > > interested in.
> > > Try going to
> http://www.members.shaw.ca/jamie.orr/
> > > and see both
> > > rendezvous.
> > >
> > > (Both gatherings are written up in the Nov/Dec
> issue
> > > of Small Craft
> > > Advisor, which just came out.  If you don't
> already
> > > subscribe, you
> > > should try it, and not just for the article
> > > mentioned.)
> > >
> > > Hope to see you on the water sometime!
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Jamie Orr
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

I don't think that is quite right. What ever you use it will be
lighter by the amount of water it displaces that is what makes boats
float. So what is commen is to keep the shape but give it more depth
ie leverage so the same weight has the same efect with the leverage
helping useing concreat rather then lead.

Jon

  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
>
> Dusty I don't think it would be that hard but the
> thing you are going to need to keep in mind is,
> concrete looses about half it mass when it is in salt
> water.
>
> It you have a 2000 lb block of the stuff and hang it
> by a scale in seawater it would be just over 1000 lbs.
> I was told this by a number of people that set
> moorings here in the islands.
>
> To support this concrete with stone is 120 to 150 lbs
> per cubic ft. and seawater is 64 lbs per cubic ft.
>
>
> So with that said if you need 300 lbs of lead you are
> going to need 600 lbs of crete at the same place from
> the CoB. You could get away with less if you made the
> keel deeper so it would have a longer lever arm from
> CoB.
>
> Krissie
>
> --- dustymick64 <dustymick64@...> wrote:
>
> > Was wondering how difficult it would be to change
> > the keel from the
> > one designed for it to a box type filled with
> > concrete? Messing around
> > with the lead is a bit more than I want to fool
> > with.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

As
> designed, I believe Cynthia J would, if capsized, float fairly high
on her
> side, supported by the cabin and the bouyancy of the mast and gaff.
> Righting her would require a swimmer to grab the stringers on the
bottom to
> pull her up or, more likely, a line to parbuckle the boat up.  If
capsize is
> a major concern,

Well....capsize is a major concern.  A friend of mine capsized his
Cynthia J and could not get it upright.  A helpful park ranger boat and
crew couldn't either but towed the boat submerged back to the launch
ramp.  By that time my friend was very hypothermic.


I think bouyancy tanks in each quarter or across the entire transom and
under the seats in addition to making the cabin watertight would vastly
improve the situation.  In that case the heavier bottom would help
right her.  (Not so if the boat isn't watertight..wood floats, but not
very high.)

Let us know how it goes.

Reed

It doesn't matter whether you use 300 lb. of lead or 300 lbs of
feathers. As long as the center of gravity is in the same place, you
will have the same righting moment. Of course the keel also acts as
a foil underwater, so you will pick up some secondary stability from
the keel with the lighter ballast due to the necessary size increase.




--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
wrote:
>
> I don't think that is quite right. What ever you use it will be
> lighter by the amount of water it displaces that is what makes
boats
> float. So what is commen is to keep the shape but give it more
depth
> ie leverage so the same weight has the same efect with the
leverage
> helping useing concreat rather then lead.
>
> Jon
>
>  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@> wrote:
> >
> > Dusty I don't think it would be that hard but the
> > thing you are going to need to keep in mind is,
> > concrete looses about half it mass when it is in salt
> > water.
> >
> > It you have a 2000 lb block of the stuff and hang it
> > by a scale in seawater it would be just over 1000 lbs.
> > I was told this by a number of people that set
> > moorings here in the islands.
> >
> > To support this concrete with stone is 120 to 150 lbs
> > per cubic ft. and seawater is 64 lbs per cubic ft.
> >
> >
> > So with that said if you need 300 lbs of lead you are
> > going to need 600 lbs of crete at the same place from
> > the CoB. You could get away with less if you made the
> > keel deeper so it would have a longer lever arm from
> > CoB.
> >
> > Krissie
> >
> > --- dustymick64 <dustymick64@> wrote:
> >
> > > Was wondering how difficult it would be to change
> > > the keel from the
> > > one designed for it to a box type filled with
> > > concrete? Messing around
> > > with the lead is a bit more than I want to fool
> > > with.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>

The fusion of the lead is difficult more psycologically than practically. I have
done it after have  thought two months. I have found however an easy and
comfortable solution, thank also  a suggestion of Michalak: you divide in more
depart the ballast. I have divided it in three parts. That makes simpler the
fusion and makes then more manageable (but not easy) the assemblage of the
ballasts on the keel.
The procedure for the fusion is very simple
no revolving pipe
no faucet
no complicated structure
only a big pipe of iron, two bricks, a cylinder of propan and a nozzle for join.
The pipe lie on the bricks with a light inclination toward the form in wood. You
get warm the pipe from out or directly directing the flame on the wrecks of
lead.
The  wood is smeared first with water glass.
At the end  doesn't need to smooth  ballast. you have three perfect and rough
pieces (excellent for the epoxy).
The assemblage of the three pieces happens using the rear of the form  like
slide and a krick for car.   You make slip each piece against the keel,  smear
it with thickened glue,  straight it and  screw it from behind with bronze
screw. I hope my terrible  English  is enough.
I have put in the forum some photos of the whole procedure.
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/browse/277b
---------- Initial Header -----------

From      : bolger@yahoogroups.com
To          : bolger@yahoogroups.com
Cc          :
Date      : Fri, 06 Oct 2006 22:31:05 -0000
Subject : [bolger] Keel on the Micro







> Was wondering how difficult it would be to change the keel from the
> one designed for it to a box type filled with concrete? Messing around
> with the lead is a bit more than I want to fool with.
>
>
>
>
>

Kristine,

I'm emotionally on the South Sound, but physically trapped in Chicago.  Born in
Tacoma, schooled in Seattle, sailed from Case Inlet to Prince Rupert in an 18
foot skiff when young, dumb, and strong.  Does that count?

Mike Kline

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris,

Thank you, these are exactly the questions I need to ask.  You just
put then in a much more concise way than I would have phrased them.

Steven


--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Wetherill <wetherillc@...>
wrote:
>
> Steven,
>
> I would want four questions answered before I departed coastal waters.
>
> First, is the ballast sufficient to right the boat after a knockdown?
> It is embarrassing to capsize in Cape Cod Bay, but life threatening in
> the Gulf Stream.  Second, is the structure sufficient to hold together
> in a heavy sea?  Third, If a wave breaks on the cockpit, how much will
> get inside?  Fourth, will the leeboards take the abuse?  These are all
> reasonable questions for PCB&F since you must buy the plans from them
> anyway.
>
> Personally, I would be very nervous about this.  This is mostly because
> the lightest vessel I have done this in displaced about 4 times what
> this one does.
>
> V/R
> Chris
>
> Steven DAntonio wrote:
> > Has anyone built a black gauntlet II recently?  I was just wondering
> > how it handles and whether it could be used as an open water vessel.
> > I know open water is kind of a vague term and a lot depends on the
> > skill of the sailor.  But lets say I wanted to make the winter trip
> > from Gloucester, MA to St Croix (after the fall storm season is over).
> >  I was originally thinking of a breakdown schooner for this, but the
> > gauntlet has recently caught my eye.  Of course I still have 14 years
> > till I retire, so there is plenty of time for me to change my mind
again.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Steven

The standard approach for recovering a capsized dinghy is to put weight on the
centerboard to lever the boat back on her feet.  This doesn't work with
leeboards.  If the leeboard is on the high side, it is too high for a swimmer to
reach; if it is on the low side, a swimmer can't exert much force on it. 
Probably the best approach is to keep a length of line fastened to the gunwale
amidships.  If capsize occurs, throw the line over the high side of the boat,
swim around to the bottom of the boat, and use the line to try to pull the boat
up (with your feet on the bottom and pulling on the line).

Obviously a boat floating high on it's side will be easier to right than one
floating low.  It would be relatively simple to add a bulkhead immediately
behind the seats and deck in the space for substantial added bouyancy.  If the
seats were made wider to meet the sides and the joint between the outer edge of
the seats and the side were made watertight (with fiberglass tape set in an
epoxy fillet) the seats woud also provide some bouyancy (assuming thet the boat
would float high enough on her side so that the inboard edge of the seat was
above water).

To make the boat truly self righting, it is necessary to add ballast either in
the form of hard ballast or water ballast.  If you are going to do that, it
would probably be necessary to make the curve of the bottom deeper to float the
additional weight.

Another alternative is to add a 'Birdwatcher' cabin.

All of these modifications a) increase the amount of plywood needed, b) increase
the weight of the boat (degrading performance), and c) change the concept. If
you want a small, self righting boat, maybe there are better designs than
Cynthia J (see PCB's Old Shoe and Supermouse designs, for his approaches).

JohnT
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: captreed48
   To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 12:22 AM
   Subject: [bolger] Re: How would Mr Bolger update Cynthia J?


   As
   > designed, I believe Cynthia J would, if capsized, float fairly high
   on her
   > side, supported by the cabin and the bouyancy of the mast and gaff.
   > Righting her would require a swimmer to grab the stringers on the
   bottom to
   > pull her up or, more likely, a line to parbuckle the boat up. If
   capsize is
   > a major concern,

   Well....capsize is a major concern. A friend of mine capsized his
   Cynthia J and could not get it upright. A helpful park ranger boat and
   crew couldn't either but towed the boat submerged back to the launch
   ramp. By that time my friend was very hypothermic.

   I think bouyancy tanks in each quarter or across the entire transom and
   under the seats in addition to making the cabin watertight would vastly
   improve the situation. In that case the heavier bottom would help
   right her. (Not so if the boat isn't watertight..wood floats, but not
   very high.)

   Let us know how it goes.

   Reed






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have become enamored of this boat lately and would like to do a bit
of analysis of the design. The drawings in BWAOM appear to show a bit
of external ballast on the keel. Does anyone know if this true and if
so how much? Thanks.

Paul

I have become facinated by this boat and wanted to do a bit of
analysis of the design. It appears from the illustrations in BWAOM
that there is a bit of ballast attached to the keel. Does anyone know
if this is true and if so, how much? Thanks.

Paul

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "paulthober" <paulthober@...> wrote:
>
> I have become facinated by this boat and wanted to do a bit of
> analysis of the design. It appears from the illustrations in BWAOM
> that there is a bit of ballast attached to the keel. Does anyone know
> if this is true and if so, how much? Thanks.
>
> Paul

Hi Paul,

I don't have BWAOM handy but yes it does have a shallow ballast keel -
in a elongated bulb shape if I recall - through which the centerboard
slot is located. And the weight is shown somewhere on the offsets page
I believe. Or is that just the weight of the aluminum plate centerboard?

Chebacco 25 is one of my all-time favorite designs. I especailly like
the outboard motor location and it's ability to plane according to
PCB. In addition it would look like a great motorsailor with the
off-shore type pilot house that PCB has drawn for the regular version.

A potential problem might be with the centerboard's exposure to
becoming jammed with crud in a shallow berth? Could lining the case
with UHMW help in that regard I wonder?

Nels

There is a new issue of the Chebacco webzine online at
http://www.chebacco.com

---
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