Doug, I never heard of xylene, is that something available at a hardware
store?  Sounds great
Grant

on 6/28/04 4:03 PM, doug6949 at prototype@... wrote:

> By thinning epoxy with xylene you can get wood to suck it up like a
> sponge. I recently did this with some shelves for a kitchen cabinet.
> They look like oil rubbed natural wood but are hard like plastic.
>
> Using 30-40% xylene, the epoxy becomes as thin as water. If you use a
> very slow hardener at low working temperature it is possible to soak
> the wood for several hours.
>
> Doug
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@u...> wrote:
> SNIP
>>
>> The second is to fill up the pores of the wood, discouraging
> entrance of
>> solid water or humidity.  This is done with some kind of coating,
> and
>> apparently Penetrol is one possibility.  The classic method is a
> series of
>> coatings, starting with linseed oil (unboiled!) and solvent, then
> more
>> linseed oil, and finishing your last coat with boild linseed oil.
>> This is what I recommend.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

If you are going to counersink the bolt heads and plug the resulting hole, you
will have to paint the deck or cabin top, install the grab rails (bedding
compound should be used, mask, and varnish.  If you go this route, use the blue,
easy release masking tape, burnish the edge towrd the grab rail with your
fingernail--twice is better than once--and score the varnish at the edge of the
tape when you get ready to remove the tape.  All this is a fiddly job, but the
resulting look is rich and dresses the boat up wonderfully.

John T
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Ed Heins
   To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 1:22 PM
   Subject: Re: [bolger] compound bedding vs. epoxy for deck hardware


   I vote for finishing bright then throughbolting.  You have an oppportunity
then to remove it and refinish the brightwork off the boat.  Just my opinion.
     ----- Original Message -----
     From: Jason Stancil
     To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
     Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 9:21 AM
     Subject: [bolger] compound bedding vs. epoxy for deck hardware


     Trying to look ahead to the finishing part of this project.
     What is the opinion of folks as far as attaching grabrails, toerails
     and the likes. I want to finish these parts bright while the deck
     gets paint.

     So should i finish seperately then thru bolt the brightwork into
     some bedding/5200?......or epoxy it all together and then mask and
     finish indipendently?

     Thanks,
     Jason



     Bolger rules!!!
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   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   Bolger rules!!!
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   - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
   - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Adding very little to John T's excellent suggestion, but think about
these:  Bed your through bolted items in bedding compound.  It's not
a place for epoxy.  Also consider for those items that will carry
stress that a backing plate is provided under the deck--I think a
1/2" chunk of plywood usually does the trick, being a bit oversized
and that chunk would be epoxied to the deck above it.

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
> If you are going to counersink the bolt heads and plug the
resulting hole, you will have to paint the deck or cabin top, install
the grab rails (bedding compound should be used, mask, and varnish.
If you go this route, use the blue, easy release masking tape,
burnish the edge towrd the grab rail with your fingernail--twice is
better than once--and score the varnish at the edge of the tape when
you get ready to remove the tape.  All this is a fiddly job, but the
resulting look is rich and dresses the boat up wonderfully.
>
> John T
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Ed Heins
>   To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 1:22 PM
>   Subject: Re: [bolger] compound bedding vs. epoxy for deck hardware
>
>
>   I vote for finishing bright then throughbolting.  You have an
oppportunity then to remove it and refinish the brightwork off the
boat.  Just my opinion.
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: Jason Stancil
>     To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
>     Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 9:21 AM
>     Subject: [bolger] compound bedding vs. epoxy for deck hardware
>
>
>     Trying to look ahead to the finishing part of this project.
>     What is the opinion of folks as far as attaching grabrails,
toerails
>     and the likes. I want to finish these parts bright while the
deck
>     gets paint.
>
>     So should i finish seperately then thru bolt the brightwork
into
>     some bedding/5200?......or epoxy it all together and then mask
and
>     finish indipendently?
>
>     Thanks,
>     Jason
>
>
>
>     Bolger rules!!!
>     - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
horses
>     - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
Fred' posts
>     - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
away
>     - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>     - Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>     - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
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of Service.
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>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>   Bolger rules!!!
>   - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>   - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
>   - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>   - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>   - Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And glass would be unattractive to micro-organisms (e.g. bacteria,
fungi), whereas certain kinds might like to eat plant material or
silk. Glass is also more-or-less unaffected by most chemicals.

Same possible problem with using wood flour to thicken epoxy, both
chemical and biological. Limestone could be attacked by acids,
possibly even mildly acidic rainwater/ Think of how limestone caves
are formed.

Howard

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marius Lubbe - Creative MindsR HQ" <marius@c...>
>
> > 1. What is the reason for using a glass - based cloth?
>
> Strength!  Glass which is free of impurities and small fractures is
one of
> the strongest materials on earth.  With fibers, the flaws have
already
> broken.  The combination of incredibly strong glass fibers with the
elastic
> nature of the cured epoxy is what makes the result better than
either
> element alone.
>
> > why not something that will accept proper impregnation like silk
or cotton
> > or other natural fibre.
>
> Pretty weak stuff.  Why add something that won't make the final
product
> better?  Fiberglass cloth from an epoxy vendor is coated to promote
the
> bond.
>
> > 2. In the same area of thought. can one use something like corn
flour or
> > some other plant flour as a thickening agent for epoxy fillets,
if not
> why?
>
> Wood flour would seem to fall into this category, and it is my
favorite
> filler.  Other fillers offer different characteristics; e.g. lime
for a hard
> coating, silica thickener for colorless coating, silicon carbide for
> incredible hardness, ...
>
> One purpose for a filler is to provide thixotropic properties.
Unthickened
> epoxy runs and runs and runs.  (A model railroader cast a fine lake
of
> unthickened epoxy.  The next morning, all of the epoxy was on the
floor.
> He'd left a pinhole in the lake bed.)  Not all additives provide
this.
>
> Quoting from System Three's "The Epoxy Book:"
> SECTION VI C
> USING FILLERS WITH EPOXY RESIN
> System Three epoxy properly mixed is intended for both coating and
> fiberglassing. When used "right out of the jug", the mixture is
said to be
> "unfilled" and it is too thin to be used as a gap filling adhesive
or for
> fairing and filleting compounds. For these applications certain
fillers are
> added.  These materials change the flow and density characteristics
of the
> epoxy system.
>
> All fillers sold for use with System Three epoxy products are solid
> materials, falling into four general classes: thixotropic agents,
bulking
> agents, fibrous fillers, and pigments. There is some overlapping as
to
> function of certain fillers. For example, plastic minifibers is
both fibrous
> and acts also as a thixotropic agent.
> Silica thickener (Cab-O-Sil), plastic minifibers and wood flourare
> thixotropic agents. They turn the epoxy into a thixotropic fluid.
Most
> people are not familiar with the term "thixotropic" though everyone
is
> familiar with the properties of these fluids.  They flow under
shear stress
> but do not flow once the stress is removed. Ketchup and latex house
paints
> are thixotropic fluids. Adding these agents to the mixed resin and
hardener
> produces a fluid which will easily flow under the spreading stress
of a
> putty knife. Once the stress is removed the thickened epoxy retains
shape.
> In short, these fillers make the epoxy non-sagging, being added to
restrict
> drainage and make gap filling adhesives.
>
> Phenolic microballoons, quartz microspheres, and wood flour are
bulking
> agents. They "bulk out" the epoxy making a lightweight putty like
mix.
> Although all these thicken the epoxy, only wood flour will make it
> thixotropic. Attempting to add sufficient microballoons or
microspheres to
> make a non-sagging fairing putty will result in one that spreads
poorly.
> These materials should be used along with a thixotropic agent.
Silica
> thickener is the best choice because it produces the smoothest
compound.
>
> Chopped glass strands, milled glass fibers, and plastic minifibers
are
> fibrous materials that can be incorporated into structural
filleting putties
> to improve tensile strength, and are listed above in descending
order of
> tensile strength improvement.
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++
> Lots of good stuff in this free publication, and it applies to most
epoxy
> vendor's products.
>
> Roger

Sure, but glass is a fluid, and in a few thousand years, your hull shape
will be quite pear shaped.

Roger
derbyrm@...
derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@...>


> And glass would be unattractive to micro-organisms (e.g. bacteria,
> fungi), whereas certain kinds might like to eat plant material or
> silk. Glass is also more-or-less unaffected by most chemicals.
>
> Same possible problem with using wood flour to thicken epoxy, both
> chemical and biological. Limestone could be attacked by acids,
> possibly even mildly acidic rainwater/ Think of how limestone caves
> are formed.
>
> Howard

> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Marius Lubbe - Creative MindsR HQ" <marius@c...>
> >
> > > 1. What is the reason for using a glass - based cloth?
> >
> > Strength!  Glass which is free of impurities and small fractures is
> one of
> > the strongest materials on earth.  With fibers, the flaws have
> already
> > broken.  The combination of incredibly strong glass fibers with the
> elastic
> > nature of the cured epoxy is what makes the result better than
> either
> > element alone.
> >
> > > why not something that will accept proper impregnation like silk
> or cotton
> > > or other natural fibre.
> >
> > Pretty weak stuff.  Why add something that won't make the final
> product
> > better?  Fiberglass cloth from an epoxy vendor is coated to promote
> the
> > bond.
> >
> > > 2. In the same area of thought. can one use something like corn
> flour or
> > > some other plant flour as a thickening agent for epoxy fillets,
> if not
> > why?
> >
> > Wood flour would seem to fall into this category, and it is my
> favorite
> > filler.  Other fillers offer different characteristics; e.g. lime
> for a hard
> > coating, silica thickener for colorless coating, silicon carbide for
> > incredible hardness, ...
> >
> > One purpose for a filler is to provide thixotropic properties.
> Unthickened
> > epoxy runs and runs and runs.  (A model railroader cast a fine lake
> of
> > unthickened epoxy.  The next morning, all of the epoxy was on the
> floor.
> > He'd left a pinhole in the lake bed.)  Not all additives provide
> this.
> >
> > Quoting from System Three's "The Epoxy Book:"
> > SECTION VI C
> > USING FILLERS WITH EPOXY RESIN
> > System Three epoxy properly mixed is intended for both coating and
> > fiberglassing. When used "right out of the jug", the mixture is
> said to be
> > "unfilled" and it is too thin to be used as a gap filling adhesive
> or for
> > fairing and filleting compounds. For these applications certain
> fillers are
> > added.  These materials change the flow and density characteristics
> of the
> > epoxy system.
> >
> > All fillers sold for use with System Three epoxy products are solid
> > materials, falling into four general classes: thixotropic agents,
> bulking
> > agents, fibrous fillers, and pigments. There is some overlapping as
> to
> > function of certain fillers. For example, plastic minifibers is
> both fibrous
> > and acts also as a thixotropic agent.
> > Silica thickener (Cab-O-Sil), plastic minifibers and wood flourare
> > thixotropic agents. They turn the epoxy into a thixotropic fluid.
> Most
> > people are not familiar with the term "thixotropic" though everyone
> is
> > familiar with the properties of these fluids.  They flow under
> shear stress
> > but do not flow once the stress is removed. Ketchup and latex house
> paints
> > are thixotropic fluids. Adding these agents to the mixed resin and
> hardener
> > produces a fluid which will easily flow under the spreading stress
> of a
> > putty knife. Once the stress is removed the thickened epoxy retains
> shape.
> > In short, these fillers make the epoxy non-sagging, being added to
> restrict
> > drainage and make gap filling adhesives.
> >
> > Phenolic microballoons, quartz microspheres, and wood flour are
> bulking
> > agents. They "bulk out" the epoxy making a lightweight putty like
> mix.
> > Although all these thicken the epoxy, only wood flour will make it
> > thixotropic. Attempting to add sufficient microballoons or
> microspheres to
> > make a non-sagging fairing putty will result in one that spreads
> poorly.
> > These materials should be used along with a thixotropic agent.
> Silica
> > thickener is the best choice because it produces the smoothest
> compound.
> >
> > Chopped glass strands, milled glass fibers, and plastic minifibers
> are
> > fibrous materials that can be incorporated into structural
> filleting putties
> > to improve tensile strength, and are listed above in descending
> order of
> > tensile strength improvement.
> >
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++
> > Lots of good stuff in this free publication, and it applies to most
> epoxy
> > vendor's products.
> >
> > Roger
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

>
> 1. What is the reason for using a glass - based cloth?
>
> why not something that will accept proper impregnation like silk or
cotton
> or other natural fibre.

You can use a polyester like Xynole. It is not a natural fiber but it
does not itch like glass. That alone makes it easier to work with.

Charles

Hi Guys,

This has been very interesting; especially those replies that says we use
glass because its better......???

I take the point of the writer who said that natural fibres will suck up
more epoxy and make the work heavier. That makes a lot of sense, and would
be valid if you constructed a whole boat of just glass and resin. We however
a looking for the most durable, easiest to work and most affordable solution
for a single thin skin, that will also not check, (I believe its because the
fibres repel the resin, somewhat)!

My thoughts are (and please I not a scientist) that it seems to me that the
resin is the thing that actually does the power thing, whereas the glass, or
cloth or whatever seems to be the matrix that hold it all in shape and give
it some bulk all over a large area in a uniform kind of way. My thinking was
impregnated natural fibre would be stronger than glass strands which is (it
seems to me at least) a weak material. For example: If they made a cheap
stainless steel cloth would that not be a fantastic almost bullet-proof base
cloth?

You must please excuse my ignorance, but I am sure you will bear with my
thinking somewhat out of the box. Actually it started with the book Backyard
boatbuilding which suggest using anything that gets a boat together and
floating. I am not looking to do that, but am wondering whether we are
conditioned by DuPont & co.to use the glass, without thinking about it. BTW
what was invented first ? the glass or the epoxy? Was glass fibres invented
first and then they started looking for a binding agent, to make it useful
as a construction material?

I read somewhere about glass fibre boats not standing well up to knocks and
cracking and crazing. Have you seen the little statuettes and models molded
of resin. They look like they can stand being fired from a cannon, but still
is not too heavy!

Hope this is not starting to bore you, but I think we should explore all the
alternatives.

Regards
Marius


   _____

From: Lincoln Ross [mailto:lincolnr@...]
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 9:28 PM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Natural alternatives to Fibreglass cloth?


Glass fibers are extremely strong, fairly elastic, and don't break down
easily. If the proper type is used (especially don't use mat), they wet
out just fine with epoxy. I'm sure "natural" fibers are MUCH weaker. I
have used very small amounts of glass cloth with nitrocellulose dope
with good results, but I'd guess this is weaker than epoxy. In my
experience, 1 oz. glass and epoxy are enough to prevent checking and are
very light when applied carefully..

Some people have reported successful use of flour. You want something
very fine and smooth, like white wheat flour. I'm guessing mechanical
properties are much worse than fumed silica, but maybe enough if the
fillet is glassed over.

>Marius Lubbe - Creative MindsR HQ
>Dear Friends,
>
>I am a novice in these things and therefore ask that you bear with me if my
>thoughts seem weird.
>
>1. What is the reason for using a glass - based cloth?
>
>why not something that will accept proper impregnation like silk or cotton
>or other natural fibre.
>
>
>2. In the same area of thought. can one use something like corn flour or
>some other plant flour as a thickening agent for epoxy fillets, if not why?
>
>Thanks
>Marius
>




Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, and it absorbs epoxy like a sponge!  I like most of xynole's
properties, but unless you are very careful in wetting it out it will turn
into a heavy and expensive coating.

David

   _____

From: chodges31711 [mailto:chodges@...]
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 9:27 PM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Natural alternatives to Fibreglass cloth?


>
> 1. What is the reason for using a glass - based cloth?
>
> why not something that will accept proper impregnation like silk or
cotton
> or other natural fibre.

You can use a polyester like Xynole. It is not a natural fiber but it
does not itch like glass. That alone makes it easier to work with.

Charles



Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David Ryan wrote:

> >I know that a couple of I 60 boats were supposed to start building.
> >Has anybody made any progress yet?  Are there any pictures?  I hope
> >that the people involved are ready for such a big project.
>
> The plans for said boat are not yet complete.
>
> As far as the Insolent 60 being a big project, it is. But it's not as
> big as the length of the boat might suggest.
>
> Buelher's 43 foot schooner ARCHIMEDES has a displacement of 21 tons.
> From that one might infer that his 64 foot schooner DRAGONFLY has a
> displacement of around 30 or 40 tons.

Archimedes at 43 feet is 42,000lbs or 21 short tons; but Dragonfly 64 at
64 feet is only 59,000lbs or just less than 30 short tons.
Still quite a lot more than 6 tons though !

Chris

> I really wonder what would happen to Rondo 2 if it got knocked
down.

Interesting question. She has a very thick wooden bottom which is
meant to be ballast to pull her back, and the enclosed volumes are
supposed to float her without taking on water when she's on her side.

But all that was supposed to be true of Martha Jane, too.

Peter

Just finished loading updates to my site at:
http://www.brucesboats.com
about the '04 Kingston Messabout. Now it has all the correct dates
and times of events.

If you're planning on attending either email me, preferably with a
photo of any vessels you will bring. Alternatively post a message on
the Kingston Mesabout Yahoo group and drop a pic in that groups
files section.

Hope this year's is a great as the '03 event was.

Also loaded some new pics of floatables we saw this winter in the
sunny south and updates the TIMS page.

Bruce Hector

Bolgerados,

        Finally getting myself a wee bit organized regarding some
pictures.
        I've up-loaded some new shots over in the files section of
Bolger 3 in the WINDERMERE file.
        To make good and proper sense of the sequence presented
there,you may wish to click on the new entries(at the top of the
file) in the following order:
image 02,then image 01 followed by images 09,08,07,06,05,04 and 03.
This way,the photos make chronological sense since the fellow who
scanned these for me got them out of order despite my warning to
him.....the bum!
        Things have progressed considerably since these photos were
taken and another set of photos are presently being put in order for
scanning.
        This bow shed is exactly the type of structure/shelter I
should have built FIRST,before even attempting the bottom.......it
almost breaks my heart when I think of all the lost days due to
rain,snow and other weather related delays.It is also a fine example
of how being an eager puppy really doesn't help,in the long run:-)
        Anyhow,I'll keep this short by simply adding that fellow group
member(senorian?) was right on the money when he recommended adding
some means to ventilate the heat of summer which builds up very
quickly inside my new"shop".Thanks senorian for saving me from having
all my fat rendered into oil!

      So,here is a link to the appropriate group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger3/files/


Enjoy!


Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan,maintaining healthy levels of hydration through the
gulping down of great volumes of a beverage,most curious,whose
composition appears to be 93% water and 7% natural grains......a near
perfect breakfast,lunch and supper combo without all the nasty
cooking,messing and fussing one usually goes through just to fill
ones belly and,best of all,this all natural meal replacement diet
comes in convienient packages of 6,12and 24,requires no heating(best
served as cold as possible) and the local grocery store will even buy
back the food containers when they are empty!Try doing that with yer
box of All-Bran, eh?!................

>
>
>Marius Lubbe wrote:
>Hi Guys,
>snip
>I take the point of the writer who said that natural fibres will suck up
>more epoxy and make the work heavier. That makes a lot of sense, and would
>be valid if you constructed a whole boat of just glass and resin. We however
>a looking for the most durable, easiest to work and most affordable solution
>for a single thin skin, that will also not check, (I believe its because the
>fibres repel the resin, somewhat)!
>
Actually, for small boats of 1/4" (6mm) plywood, the fabric and epoxy
weight can be very significant. Particularly if you have to pick the
boat up. I seem to recall using most of a gallon on a dinghy. Probably 7
or 8 lbs. of epoxy and some additional weight of fabric. I'm not sure,
but I think the total weight of that boat is 60 lbs or less, so a large
fraction is in the coating and in the tapes. . I used 1 oz glass for the
coating, but it's not all that easy to use. Sure is cheap, tho.

>
>My thoughts are (and please I not a scientist) that it seems to me that the
>resin is the thing that actually does the power thing, whereas the glass, or
>cloth or whatever seems to be the matrix that hold it all in shape and give
>it some bulk all over a large area in a uniform kind of way. My thinking was
>impregnated natural fibre would be stronger than glass strands which is (it
>seems to me at least) a weak material. For example: If they made a cheap
>stainless steel cloth would that not be a fantastic almost bullet-proof base
>cloth?
>
Glass fibers are very different from glass in your window. They are VERY
strong, comparable to carbon fiber (but not as stiff),  500,000 psi for
e glass (s glass is even stronger) according to a quick web search.
Glass fibers are pretty floppy compared to carbon, though. Also, any
such composite (including carbon, kevlar, etc.) will be much weaker than
the individual fibers.  My guess is that on really thin coatings (less
epoxy, mind you),  the glass helps to prevent checking with its superior
strength. I also guess that a coating with natural fibers would have to
be thicker to do the same job.

>
>You must please excuse my ignorance, but I am sure you will bear with my
>thinking somewhat out of the box. Actually it started with the book Backyard
>boatbuilding which suggest using anything that gets a boat together and
>floating. I am not looking to do that, but am wondering whether we are
>conditioned by DuPont & co.to use the glass, without thinking about it. BTW
>what was invented first ? the glass or the epoxy? Was glass fibres invented
>first and then they started looking for a binding agent, to make it useful
>as a construction material?
>
Well, I don't think anyone has a monopoly anymore, if they ever did, and
glass is as cheap as any other fabric I've seen, or maybe cheaper. I
believe glass cloth and epoxy were invented seperately. I recall hearing
that lots of circuit boards were made out of glass cloth for WW2 and
afterwards all this surplus material was lying around.... I have the
impression that glass cloth was used with polyester resin first.

>
>I read somewhere about glass fibre boats not standing well up to knocks and
>cracking and crazing. Have you seen the little statuettes and models molded
>of resin. They look like they can stand being fired from a cannon, but still
>is not too heavy!
>
>
I'll bet these boats were made with polyester resin, which is not as
resilient as epoxy. And even then, in my experience polyester resin and
glass can stand up to some pretty hard knocks. I suspect those "resin"
models are something else entirely. THere are about a gazillion plastics
available these days. Epoxy would probably be too slow to make any money
out of those expensive molds.

>Hope this is not starting to bore you, but I think we should explore all the
>alternatives.
>
>Regards
>Marius
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@...>

> Actually, for small boats of 1/4" (6mm) plywood, the
> fabric and epoxy weight can be very significant.

Amen!  I overdid it on Dadink and it came out at 100 lbs instead of the 80
lbs it was supposed to.  Glassing the inside was a mistake.

> I have the impression that glass cloth was used with
> polyester resin first.

I think it was probably phenolic (which may be the same thing) and the
initial boards used paper, then linen, then fiberglass.  I've got some
circuit components from the WW I era, and most steps in between.  Anybody in
the market for a few dozen vacuum tube shields?

Roger
derbyrm@...
derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

Anyone interested in buying a Bolger Micro?

http://www.shortypen.com/micro/

Thanks
Shorty

ps - only 2 months left till the dinghy dash
http://www.shortypen.com/events/ddash/

Doh! Someone tell me why i'm building one?
$500 bucks! the trailer and sails are worth that. I'd buy it for
parts if it was 700 miles closer.
I like the lug in tabernacle set up.
Jason

I am. Any chance you’re heading to eastern North Carolina any time soon?

Greg Ball
GIS Coordinator
Dare County, NC
(252) 475-5831

-----Original Message-----
From: shortypen [mailto:Shorty@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 3:32 PM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] For Sale: Bolger Micro

Anyone interested in buying a Bolger Micro?

http://www.shortypen.com/micro/

Thanks
Shorty

ps - only 2 months left till the dinghy dash
http://www.shortypen.com/events/ddash/



Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You're building one because you enjoy boat building.  It is ALWAYS cheaper
to buy a used boat.

"Rich men build boats for poor men to sail." -- anonymous

Roger
derbyrm@...
derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@...>


> Doh! Someone tell me why i'm building one?
> $500 bucks! the trailer and sails are worth that. I'd buy it for
> parts if it was 700 miles closer.
> I like the lug in tabernacle set up.
> Jason

Here are all of the boat transport companies I know of:

http://www.shortypen.com/boats/pocket/trans.htm

Thanks
Shorty

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Ball" <gregb@c...> wrote:
> I am. Any chance you're heading to eastern North Carolina any time
soon?
>
> Greg Ball
> GIS Coordinator
> Dare County, NC
> (252) 475-5831
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shortypen [mailto:Shorty@S...]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 3:32 PM
> To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] For Sale: Bolger Micro
>
> Anyone interested in buying a Bolger Micro?
>
> http://www.shortypen.com/micro/
>
> Thanks
> Shorty
>
> ps - only 2 months left till the dinghy dash
> http://www.shortypen.com/events/ddash/
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

........My thoughts are (and please I not a scientist) that it seems
to me that the resin is the thing that actually does the power thing,
whereas the glass, or cloth or whatever seems to be the matrix that
hold it all in shape and give it some bulk all over a large area in a
uniform kind of way............


Actually you have it almost entirely backwards.  The resin holds the
shape and resists some compression loads, while the fibers provide
the strength in most every tension load.

This is always true, even in ferro/cement construction.  The steel is
the strength.  The cement does little more than keep the water out.

It is also true that the fibers MUST resist tension loads as even a
little stretch will crack, crumble, and otherwise wreck the resin.

30 years ago there was a homebuilt aircraft which became popular
using a polyester varient fabric and epoxy w' foam as a internal
mold.  If overstressed, the the epoxy broke up and the plane became a
cloth bag as it fell to earth.

Listen guys,

I want to thank you for sharing, I am learning quickly. Thanks to everyone,
there are too many to name, but I am grateful, and hope to be able to ask
some more "dumb" questions in the future, and being treated in the same kind
and respectful way!

Kind regards
Marius

Marius Lubbe
Creative MindsR HQ
Cape Town, South Africa
Phone: 082 785 7763

   _____

From: donschultz8275 [mailto:donschultz@...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 12:27 AM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Natural alternatives to Fibreglass cloth?


........My thoughts are (and please I not a scientist) that it seems
to me that the resin is the thing that actually does the power thing,
whereas the glass, or cloth or whatever seems to be the matrix that
hold it all in shape and give it some bulk all over a large area in a
uniform kind of way............


Actually you have it almost entirely backwards.  The resin holds the
shape and resists some compression loads, while the fibers provide
the strength in most every tension load.

This is always true, even in ferro/cement construction.  The steel is
the strength.  The cement does little more than keep the water out.

It is also true that the fibers MUST resist tension loads as even a
little stretch will crack, crumble, and otherwise wreck the resin.

30 years ago there was a homebuilt aircraft which became popular
using a polyester varient fabric and epoxy w' foam as a internal
mold.  If overstressed, the the epoxy broke up and the plane became a
cloth bag as it fell to earth.



Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Lincoln,

I did not think of it that way, the cloth absorbing could actually make the
hull a hell of a lot heavier. Not good!! hey?

Thanks for the answers I appreciate the kindness.

Whenever in stunning Cape Town - South Africa, you know my number!!

Regards
Marius

Marius Lubbe
Creative MindsR HQ
Cape Town, South Africa
Phone: 082 785 7763
w <http://www.minds.co.za> ww.minds.co.za


   _____

From: Lincoln Ross [mailto:lincolnr@...]
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 11:31 PM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] RE: Re: Natural alternatives to Fibreglass cloth?


>
>
>Marius Lubbe wrote:
>Hi Guys,
>snip
>I take the point of the writer who said that natural fibres will suck up
>more epoxy and make the work heavier. That makes a lot of sense, and would
>be valid if you constructed a whole boat of just glass and resin. We
however
>a looking for the most durable, easiest to work and most affordable
solution
>for a single thin skin, that will also not check, (I believe its because
the
>fibres repel the resin, somewhat)!
>
Actually, for small boats of 1/4" (6mm) plywood, the fabric and epoxy
weight can be very significant. Particularly if you have to pick the
boat up. I seem to recall using most of a gallon on a dinghy. Probably 7
or 8 lbs. of epoxy and some additional weight of fabric. I'm not sure,
but I think the total weight of that boat is 60 lbs or less, so a large
fraction is in the coating and in the tapes. . I used 1 oz glass for the
coating, but it's not all that easy to use. Sure is cheap, tho.

>
>My thoughts are (and please I not a scientist) that it seems to me that the
>resin is the thing that actually does the power thing, whereas the glass,
or
>cloth or whatever seems to be the matrix that hold it all in shape and give
>it some bulk all over a large area in a uniform kind of way. My thinking
was
>impregnated natural fibre would be stronger than glass strands which is (it
>seems to me at least) a weak material. For example: If they made a cheap
>stainless steel cloth would that not be a fantastic almost bullet-proof
base
>cloth?
>
Glass fibers are very different from glass in your window. They are VERY
strong, comparable to carbon fiber (but not as stiff),  500,000 psi for
e glass (s glass is even stronger) according to a quick web search.
Glass fibers are pretty floppy compared to carbon, though. Also, any
such composite (including carbon, kevlar, etc.) will be much weaker than
the individual fibers.  My guess is that on really thin coatings (less
epoxy, mind you),  the glass helps to prevent checking with its superior
strength. I also guess that a coating with natural fibers would have to
be thicker to do the same job.

>
>You must please excuse my ignorance, but I am sure you will bear with my
>thinking somewhat out of the box. Actually it started with the book
Backyard
>boatbuilding which suggest using anything that gets a boat together and
>floating. I am not looking to do that, but am wondering whether we are
>conditioned by DuPont & co.to use the glass, without thinking about it. BTW
>what was invented first ? the glass or the epoxy? Was glass fibres invented
>first and then they started looking for a binding agent, to make it useful
>as a construction material?
>
Well, I don't think anyone has a monopoly anymore, if they ever did, and
glass is as cheap as any other fabric I've seen, or maybe cheaper. I
believe glass cloth and epoxy were invented seperately. I recall hearing
that lots of circuit boards were made out of glass cloth for WW2 and
afterwards all this surplus material was lying around.... I have the
impression that glass cloth was used with polyester resin first.

>
>I read somewhere about glass fibre boats not standing well up to knocks and
>cracking and crazing. Have you seen the little statuettes and models molded
>of resin. They look like they can stand being fired from a cannon, but
still
>is not too heavy!
>
>
I'll bet these boats were made with polyester resin, which is not as
resilient as epoxy. And even then, in my experience polyester resin and
glass can stand up to some pretty hard knocks. I suspect those "resin"
models are something else entirely. THere are about a gazillion plastics
available these days. Epoxy would probably be too slow to make any money
out of those expensive molds.

>Hope this is not starting to bore you, but I think we should explore all
the
>alternatives.
>
>Regards
>Marius
>




Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Not really natural, but I have a couple of old delaminating
Mylar/Kevlar sails laying around. I was thinking of pulling the mylar off
and using the kevlar cloth for FG repair work.

Justin

You probably want to test the bond between epoxy and the salvaged Kevlar
real well before you invest too much labor.

I understand that most fibers for our work are coated with something to
encourage the epoxy to "wet" them.  The sail material might be coated
differently.  (One can't imagine the many different kinds of glass until
he's visited the Corning Glass Museum in Corning, New York.)

Roger
derbyrm@...
derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Meddock" <jmeddock@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 7:21 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Natural alternatives to Fibreglass cloth?


> Not really natural, but I have a couple of old delaminating
> Mylar/Kevlar sails laying around. I was thinking of pulling the mylar off
> and using the kevlar cloth for FG repair work.

Hey-

I'm off to fax PCB & F about the micro tabernacle drawing he is
putting together.

There was some discussion about questions to ask him, anyone what to
refresh my memory?.....

1. Anti-kerphlumper bow modifications
2. Engine controls for the navigator
3. tabernacle itself

anything else?

Jason

P.S. got both my decks on, built the front hatch, Stowage bins and
dressers are done(some fairing to do still), mizzen step is 75 %
finished, motor mount done, and have started to frame the pilot
house.

It is a paint thinner or vehicle for certain industrial enamels. A
paint store should have it.

> Doug, I never heard of xylene, is that something available at a
hardware
> store?  Sounds great
> Grant

Not if you can't get the boat you want.

>Roger Derby wrote:
>You're building one because you enjoy boat building.  It is ALWAYS cheaper
>to buy a used boat.
>

The fiber provides compression strength too. The epoxy (or polyester
resin) just holds it in place so it doesn't buckle. And maybe some local
strength across the fibers. I seem to recall typical figures for
strength of laminates in the tens of thousands of psi, but strength
figures for epoxy under 10kpsi.  I think with ferro cement, the cement
might be able to take more of the compression load, as you describe,
and as I recall portland cement is ok in compression and terrible in
tension. I also seem to recall epoxy has some strength in both tension
and compression, but nothing like what you see with glass added.

>donschultz8275 wrote:
>snip
>Actually you have it almost entirely backwards.  The resin holds the
>shape and resists some compression loads, while the fibers provide
>the strength in most every tension load.
>
>This is always true, even in ferro/cement construction.  The steel is
>the strength.  The cement does little more than keep the water out.
>
>It is also true that the fibers MUST resist tension loads as even a
>little stretch will crack, crumble, and otherwise wreck the resin.
>
>
snip
BTW, what was that aircraft that turned into a bag?

Kevlar is really tough stuff, but don't count on it in compression. I
have an old model airplane fuselage made of Kevlar and epoxy. It's been
bashed many times and crushes in, but you can then pop it out and it
takes on it's former shape except for a little crease. (Those crashes by
former owner. I haven't flown it yet.)

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, grant corson <corson@a...> wrote:
> Doug, I never heard of xylene, is that something available at a
hardware
> store?  Sounds great

Xylene is available at most paint stores. It is one of the ingredients
in automotive paint reducers. I mention xylene specifically because it
seems to have the least ill effects on epoxy strength.

Many other solvents work just as well if all you want to do is make a
penetrating epoxy. Methyl or denatured alcohol, acetone or just about
any automotive paint reducer will work fine. I use acrylic enamel
reducer because I have several gallons stashed away.

Those of you who were on some of the old egroups boat lists remember a
product called CPES (clear penetrating epoxy sealant). It had such a
religous following that to suggest the possibility of making it
yourself got you verbally assaulted. Turns out it was just generic
epoxy with about 40% solvent added. The guy made a killing for a few
years. Can't blame him for that but the CPES cult was reminiscent of
Wharram catamaran groupies. Weird!

Doug