--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David Romasco" <dromasco@g...> wrote:
> Gee, Nels; it would seem obvious to the scientific mind that what
you need
> is something that meets all your needs at once, like foam ballast!
It'll
> also work as flotation, too.
>
> Y'know, I used to think I knew stuff about boats, but the things
I've
> learned in this group amaze me more every day!
>
> ;->
>
> David Romasco

Me too!

I believe you are familiar with some of John Welsford's designs?
Which ones of his use water ballest? I recall many years ago that
there were a series of trailer sailers from NZ that used water
ballest and named "Hartley Trailer Sailers" Do you recall those
designs. They were multi chine stitch and glue constrution as well.
Very advanced for their time.

Also Chuck Leinweber has built a Michalak design with water ballest
tanks and loves it.

Lots of choices for everyone.

I plan to use water ballest and additional lead in LESTAT - in the
form of jugs of fresh water and lead acid batteries. As well as
additional floatation/ballest using an air mattress.

Cheers Nels

The only one I'm sure Welsford uses water ballast in is his Light Dory; he
fills up a 10 litre plastic jerrycan with water and keeps it on a short
line.  He tosses the water bottle to the bow or stern (depending on what
trim seems appropriate for the sea conditions), and retrieves it with the
line.  I'm familiar with the Hartley line (even have a set of plans for
their 18' launch); very nice boats indeed!  I've used a Macgregor 26X (water
ballast, moderate rig, 50HP Honda!) and the boat was skittery running as a
ballast-less powerboat, but settled down very nicely when we opened the
flood valves and started wallowing along.  Word of advice: don't run the
slalom course at full throttle with no ballast in these things!

Sounds like you've got the right idea for LESTAT.  I really LIKE the idea of
inflatable ballast, and look forward to hearing how it works out.....

David

   _____

From: Nels [mailto:arvent@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:38 PM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: water ballast



I believe you are familiar with some of John Welsford's designs?
Which ones of his use water ballest? I recall many years ago that
there were a series of trailer sailers from NZ that used water
ballest and named "Hartley Trailer Sailers" Do you recall those
designs. They were multi chine stitch and glue constrution as well.
Very advanced for their time.

Also Chuck Leinweber has built a Michalak design with water ballest
tanks and loves it.

Lots of choices for everyone.

I plan to use water ballest and additional lead in LESTAT - in the
form of jugs of fresh water and lead acid batteries. As well as
additional floatation/ballest using an air mattress.

Cheers Nels



Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have been playing with the idea of an insert of something between
6 and 12 in. running the length of the hull, on either CCS or
Michalak's AF4. This would widen the living space commensurately. On
the CCS saloon launch, being plumb-sided, this would result in a
pram bow -- which, if desired, could be returned to a point by
adding a 'falsie'.

John

Continuing from my last post (34128), I worked out the numbers for
St. Valery, (25' overall) based on the drawings of her in Boat Design
Quarterly (#10) as for water vs. lead ballast.

Bolger shows 2.1 m3 (74.2 ft3) of water ballast, about 4700 pounds,
stuck in the bilge. From what I can tell it seems to be distributed
outboard port and starboard, mostly under dressers and berths, and
doesn't seem to impact centerline headroom at all.

Now, if instead of water, lead was put in the bilge, all else being
equal she'd only need about 6.6 ft3 of lead to equal that weight in
water. Because the lead could be placed more advantageously she
probably wouldn't need as much, say 6 ft3. In St.Valery that would
buy a few extra sock drawers (the ballast tanks seem to be about 8"
high off the flat-floored bilge), at the expense of her trailering
capability. (BDQ lists her empty weight as 1000 lbs.)

But, if disaster struck and she filled with water, she's now a SINKER
and down she goes.

To offset that lead and keep her swimming - and taking into account
that lead in the water weighs less than lead not in the water - she'd
need about 70 ft3 of flotation somewhere in the boat just to offset
the weight of that lead.

That means, in total, if lead ballast is used and positive flotation
was wanted, a minimum of around 76 ft3 of space would have to be
found to stuff all the lead and foam into - more space than was used
for water ballast alone. Flotation doesn't necessarily fill nooks and
crannies as handily as water does, so it might take more than that.
Also, if the bulk of the flotation is placed down low, say under the
berths and out of the way where Bolger put the water ballast, in an
inverted boat filled with water that flotation is now acting as hard
as it can to keep her inverted...

Now, obviously if PCB had designed St. Valery from the start to use
lead it would not be the St. Valery it is now, but an entirely
different boat: probably deeper draft, probably not as much ballast
but still not easily trailerable, not as beachable - and on and on.

The point is, if in a given boat lead is used to save the space
otherwise devoted to water ballast, it only works if you're willing
to have a boat that abandons you for the deep blue just at the time
you need her most...

Numbers:
		 Lbs./Ft3
Lead 	 710
Water, pure  62.4
Water, sea  64.08

1 ft3 styrofoam floats 55 lbs (according to buoyancyfoam.com)

John O'Neill

Have you figured in the positive buoyancy of all the wooden structure in
your calculations for foam?


----- Original Message -----
From: "oneillparker" <jboatguy@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 4:54 PM
Subject: [bolger] Sinkers v. Swimmers


| Continuing from my last post (34128), I worked out the numbers for
| St. Valery, (25' overall) based on the drawings of her in Boat Design
| Quarterly (#10) as for water vs. lead ballast.
|
| Bolger shows 2.1 m3 (74.2 ft3) of water ballast, about 4700 pounds,
| stuck in the bilge. From what I can tell it seems to be distributed
| outboard port and starboard, mostly under dressers and berths, and
| doesn't seem to impact centerline headroom at all.
|
| Now, if instead of water, lead was put in the bilge, all else being
| equal she'd only need about 6.6 ft3 of lead to equal that weight in
| water. Because the lead could be placed more advantageously she
| probably wouldn't need as much, say 6 ft3. In St.Valery that would
| buy a few extra sock drawers (the ballast tanks seem to be about 8"
| high off the flat-floored bilge), at the expense of her trailering
| capability. (BDQ lists her empty weight as 1000 lbs.)
|
| But, if disaster struck and she filled with water, she's now a SINKER
| and down she goes.
|
| To offset that lead and keep her swimming - and taking into account
| that lead in the water weighs less than lead not in the water - she'd
| need about 70 ft3 of flotation somewhere in the boat just to offset
| the weight of that lead.
|
| That means, in total, if lead ballast is used and positive flotation
| was wanted, a minimum of around 76 ft3 of space would have to be
| found to stuff all the lead and foam into - more space than was used
| for water ballast alone. Flotation doesn't necessarily fill nooks and
| crannies as handily as water does, so it might take more than that.
| Also, if the bulk of the flotation is placed down low, say under the
| berths and out of the way where Bolger put the water ballast, in an
| inverted boat filled with water that flotation is now acting as hard
| as it can to keep her inverted...
|
| Now, obviously if PCB had designed St. Valery from the start to use
| lead it would not be the St. Valery it is now, but an entirely
| different boat: probably deeper draft, probably not as much ballast
| but still not easily trailerable, not as beachable - and on and on.
|
| The point is, if in a given boat lead is used to save the space
| otherwise devoted to water ballast, it only works if you're willing
| to have a boat that abandons you for the deep blue just at the time
| you need her most...
|
| Numbers:
| Lbs./Ft3
| Lead 710
| Water, pure 62.4
| Water, sea 64.08
|
| 1 ft3 styrofoam floats 55 lbs (according to buoyancyfoam.com)
|
| John O'Neill
|
|
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
| - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
| - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
| - Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
| - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
|
| Yahoo! Groups Links
|
| To visit your group on the web, go to:
|  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
|
| To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
|  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
|  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|

Guys,
Here's a pretty simple experiment which may illustrate some of the basic
facts about water ballast.

  What you need is a 2 x 4 about 10 ft long, a couple of 2 gallon water
jugs with handles, two lengths of light line and a skiff.

Fill the jugs with water. Tie them one to each end of the 2 x 4 with
about 4 or 5 ft of slack.  Rig the piece of wood across the skiff with
the two filled jugs sunk at either end of the wood.. Rock your boat. The
weight of the filled jugs will slow the rock down. They will have almost
no effect on whether or not the boat tips although it will tip more slowly.

Then shorten the length of rope tying the jugs to the 2 x 4 so that the
jugs are just awash when the skiff is on an even keel. Now when you try
to rock the boat you will be trying to lift one or the other of the
water filled jugs out of the water and your skiff will resist the
heeling your rocking is trying to produce. In that case your boat will
have become 'stiffer' through the action of the water filled jugs, which
of course, are now acting as ballast, each one after the other as the
boat rocks from side to side.

On the other hand, a chunk of lead hanging down from the bottom of the
boat will always exert a righting force on the boat as it tips either
way. So, lead is simpler but a drained pair of ballast tanks is lighter
when it comes time to haul the boat out of the water.

Jim



Nels wrote:

> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "oneillparker" <jboatguy@c...> wrote:
> > No, Nels, it was not intended as "serious advice to newbies."
> >
>
> The original request was from a newbie who was looking for serious
> advice. He was advised, amongst other things that marshmellows,
> feathers, styrofoam and fat men filled with beer are all valid forms
> of ballest.
>
> Also I was seriously advised on another forum that styrofoam should
> be installed as low in boat as possible so it would also act as
> ballest. I was told some other weird advice too which I won't even go
> into.
>
> Cheers, Nels
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
<http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12cdupr4o/M=267637.4116732.5333197.1261774/D=egroupweb/\
S=1705065791:HM/EXP=1075564304/A=1945637/R=0/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqs\
o=60178397&partid=4116732>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>     * To visit your group on the web, go to:
>       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
>
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>       bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
>     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David Romasco" <dromasco@g...> wrote:
> Hmmm.. you're talking about a 6'x6'x32' enclosed box

I don't know. Consider what the Brit's do with their 7 foot beam
narrowboats. Some go to over 70 feet long on that little bitty beam.

I know TIMS kept getting more stable as we piled on the length. At 96
feet I could (and did) walk on the gun'wales with the stability of a
bridge!

Bruce Hector

Just keep the bottom flat and the sides plumb (or even add in a little
tumblehome for more stability) and you'll be alright.

No, Bolger already has flotation designed in, I just calculated the
amount of extra foam that would be needed to 'float' the lead in a
version that substituted lead for water with no other changes.
John O'Neill

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@m...>
wrote:
> Have you figured in the positive buoyancy of all the wooden
structure in
> your calculations for foam?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "oneillparker" <jboatguy@c...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 4:54 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Sinkers v. Swimmers
>
>
> | Continuing from my last post (34128), I worked out the numbers for
> | St. Valery, (25' overall) based on the drawings of her in Boat
Design
> | Quarterly (#10) as for water vs. lead ballast.....

But Bruce, those narrowboats are built that way because the Brits
prematurely shipped all the rugged types off to Oz, and there were nought
but them pasty-faced lads left to dig the canals that those narrowboats ran
in.  You can see where I'm going with this...



David



   _____

From: Bruce Hector [mailto:bruce_hector@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 5:56 PM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: State Series ----> Cabin Clam Skiff



--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David Romasco" <dromasco@g...> wrote:
> Hmmm.. you're talking about a 6'x6'x32' enclosed box

I don't know. Consider what the Brit's do with their 7 foot beam
narrowboats. Some go to over 70 feet long on that little bitty beam.

I know TIMS kept getting more stable as we piled on the length. At 96
feet I could (and did) walk on the gun'wales with the stability of a
bridge!

Bruce Hector

Just keep the bottom flat and the sides plumb (or even add in a little
tumblehome for more stability) and you'll be alright.



Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



   _____

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* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/

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<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

How about this version:

Take those two gallons and place them as low as possible in the bilge
of the skiff, then measure how much force it takes to tip the boat a
given amount.

Now, take the water out and repeat the experiment; the amount of
force will be less because the water was acting as ballast.

If you put the water ballast back in the boat, and then flood the
boat enough to cover the ballast, measure, then take the jugs out and
measure again, the amount of force required to tip the boat a given
amount will be equal.

If you substitue those 2 gallons of water with an equivelent weight
of flotation, your results with the bilge dry will be about the same,
because the foam will ACT as ballast. But, your results with the
bilge wet will be opposite, i.e. with the foam (as long as it's
fastened down in the bilge), the boat will tip easier. In fact, it
will more than likely float with a list to begin with.

Do all the same with lead, and the lead will tend to stabilize the
boat no matter what (although it will do so less so with the bilge
wet, because lead too has to displace it's volume with water, meaning
it won't be as 'heavy' when sitting in water) But add enough water to
the bilge, and the lead will do its best to sink that skiff - the
water ballast won't...

John O'Neill

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Jim Pope <jpope@a...> wrote:
> Guys,
> Here's a pretty simple experiment which may illustrate some of the
basic
> facts about water ballast.
>
>  What you need is a 2 x 4 about 10 ft long, a couple of 2 gallon
water
> jugs with handles, two lengths of light line and a skiff.
>
> Fill the jugs with water. Tie them one to each end of the 2 x 4
with
> about 4 or 5 ft of slack.  Rig the piece of wood across the skiff
with
> the two filled jugs sunk at either end of the wood.. Rock your
boat. The
> weight of the filled jugs will slow the rock down. They will have
almost
> no effect on whether or not the boat tips although it will tip more
slowly.
>
> Then shorten the length of rope tying the jugs to the 2 x 4 so that
the
> jugs are just awash when the skiff is on an even keel. Now when you
try
> to rock the boat you will be trying to lift one or the other of the
> water filled jugs out of the water and your skiff will resist the
> heeling your rocking is trying to produce. In that case your boat
will
> have become 'stiffer' through the action of the water filled jugs,
which
> of course, are now acting as ballast, each one after the other as
the
> boat rocks from side to side.
>
> On the other hand, a chunk of lead hanging down from the bottom of
the
> boat will always exert a righting force on the boat as it tips
either
> way. So, lead is simpler but a drained pair of ballast tanks is
lighter
> when it comes time to haul the boat out of the water.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> Nels wrote:
>
> > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "oneillparker" <jboatguy@c...>
wrote:
> > > No, Nels, it was not intended as "serious advice to newbies."
> > >
> >
> > The original request was from a newbie who was looking for serious
> > advice. He was advised, amongst other things that marshmellows,
> > feathers, styrofoam and fat men filled with beer are all valid
forms
> > of ballest.
> >
> > Also I was seriously advised on another forum that styrofoam
should
> > be installed as low in boat as possible so it would also act as
> > ballest. I was told some other weird advice too which I won't
even go
> > into.
> >
> > Cheers, Nels
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930,
> > Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
<http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12cdupr4o/M=267637.4116732.5333197.1261774/D=
egroupweb/S=1705065791:HM/EXP=1075564304/A=1945637/R=0/*http://www.net
flix.com/Default?mqso=60178397&partid=4116732>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >     * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
> >
> >     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >       bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >       <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> >     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> >       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> From what I can tell it seems to be distributed
> outboard port and starboard, ...

In a flat (or nearly) bottomed boat, there are advantages to dividing
inside ballast in two and pushing it to the sides. First, obviously,
it gets it out of the middle of the cabin. Second, it increases the
rotational moment of inertia so the boat won't react as quickly when
hit by a gust. It can make a substantial difference to the feel of
the vessel underay, similar to the difference in a sailboat boat hull
between having the mast stepped and not.

Peter

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David Romasco" <dromasco@g...> wrote:
> But Bruce, those narrowboats are built that way because the Brits
> prematurely shipped all the rugged types off to Oz,

Nah, they just shipped the ones that got caught to Oz.

The craftier. sneakier, more devious, luckier rascals became Canadians!

I won't say anything nasty about who they gave us for neighbours.

Bruce Hector

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "oneillparker" <jboatguy@c...> wrote:
> Continuing from my last post (34128), I worked out the numbers for
> St. Valery, (25' overall) based on the drawings of her in Boat
Design
> Quarterly (#10) as for water vs. lead ballast.
>
> Bolger shows 2.1 m3 (74.2 ft3) of water ballast, about 4700 pounds,
> stuck in the bilge. From what I can tell it seems to be distributed
> outboard port and starboard, mostly under dressers and berths, and
> doesn't seem to impact centerline headroom at all.

4700 pounds sure sounds like a lot of ballest on a boat that small!

LONG MICRO is almost as big and only requires 520 pounds of lead to
keep her self-righting. So St. Valery requires over over 8 times the
ballest to keep it from tipping over it seems.

Nels

Speaking of narrow Bolger designs--does anyone here have any
experience with the power dory Sharpshooter? Has anyone built one?

Thanks in advance

John

Hello fellow portly (and I'm sure a few very svelde) Bolgeristas.

I'm starting a rowing club here, hoping to meet someone willing to
stand me to a pint in return for a small dose of my nautical
mumnigicance. Fat chance!

Below is a copy of the press release I've sent off to the local Tampa,
St. Petes, & Clearwater news, radio and TV organisations about it.

Any Bolgeristeros within a few thousand miles are cordially invited to
trek on over any Wednesday eve.

Oddly enough we'll be meeting at a waterfront pub. Solely due to its
low, easy boarding, floating docks, free parking and boat launching
facilities, of course!

Brawny Bruce Hector
j'sut entendre por un Maudite froid.

Press  Release
	 Indian Rocks Recreational Rowing Club
         for more information contact:
	 Bruce Hector
	 727-595-0692
								 bruce_hector@...
								 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IRRRC/

For Immediate Release

	 Largo, FL,  1 Feb. 2004 ……. Row, scull, pull, or even drive your way
to the founding meeting of the Indian Rocks Recreational Rowing Club
(IRRRC).  It will be held from 5 -7 p.m. on Wednesday, February 4th,
2004, at The Pub Waterfront Restaurant and Lounge, 20025 Gulf Blvd.
Indian Shores, FL.

	 If you've ever struggled at the oars of a boat built for motoring,
you're in for a very pleasant surprise.  Unlike a motorboat, a boat
designed exclusively for rowing glides with ease through the water.
One pull of the oars, and these wood/composite hybrids glide 30 yards
or more.  But don't just take our word for it: you're invited to join
us and take one for a spin.

           Two home made 16 foot wooden row boats will be at the
inaugural meeting:  a three person skiff and a one person dory.
Attendees are welcome to try them for a short pull.

	 Experienced oarsmen and women as well as first-timers are urged to
come over. Feel free to bring your own rowboat.  Launching facilities
are free to any boat that one or two people can safely carry. (Trailer
launches must be made elsewhere.)

	 The Inter Coastal Waterway (ICW) at Indian Rocks is a well protected
venue for beginning rowers, and leads to many miles of coastal
discovery.   From huge mansions to winding mangrove swamps, a silent
rowboat fits in easily.  The shallow draft of these boats permits the
rower to glide near the shore, getting close to waterfowl and wildlife
without disturbing them.

	 Rowing is excellent exercise and lots of fun.  Almost without
realizing it, the upper body, legs and abs get a thorough workout in
constantly changing nautical surroundings.

	 Come and join us at The Pub.  It's a great location for launching
light weight boats—with easy to use floating docks and lots of free
parking.  Everyone interested is welcome. (You don't need to be from
Indian Rocks.)

            Anyone under 18 must be accompanied by a responsible adult.
  If you take any size except XL,  please bring your own life jackets.
  For more information, please check our group website at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IRRRC/ .  We will meet every Wednesday
at 5 p.m.
###

Note:
	 1-  The timing is perfect for photo ops as the sun will be low, in
the west, behind camerapersons on the docks

	 2-  jpegs of the skiff or dory are available if desired.

Saint Valery is clinker planked, but she's almost a slab-sided boat
with high, vertical sides, wide, flat plywood bottom and hard bilges,
reminescent of a tanker viewed head on. She's also has a nearly 7'
beam.

She draws less then a foot fully ballasted, cat schooner rigged but
with balanced lug sails, far forward centerboard and huge, kick-up
rudder (in profile she could almost be mistaken for a big Cartopper
with less rocker). She has an inboard outboard, rigged to swing up
backwards through a remarkably small hole in the motor well,
tabernacled masts, and wells forward and aft outside the people
envelope. PCB has drawn a dingy on her deck. She'll fit a legal
trailer, and has a lovely, almost frigate-like transom, with big
holes cut in it (above deck level) kind of like stern windows.

With her high bulwarks she looks like a traditional French fishing
trawler, after which she was inspired. If wanted she can carry
topsl's, and a jib on a bowsprit run-out through a hole in the
bulwarks beside the tall stem.

I would LOVE to build this craft. I have drooled over her since the
moment I first saw her. The bilges are so hard it strikes me I could
build her right side up, saving the hull sides until the major
interior pieces were done.

"This will be a stiff boat, and a very fast and weatherly boat, when
she is keenly sailed."
PCB

Oh how I want to 'keenly sail' this boat!!!

John O'Neill

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "oneillparker" <jboatguy@c...> wrote:
> > Continuing from my last post (34128), I worked out the numbers
for
> > St. Valery, (25' overall) based on the drawings of her in Boat
> Design
> > Quarterly (#10) as for water vs. lead ballast.
> >
> > Bolger shows 2.1 m3 (74.2 ft3) of water ballast, about 4700
pounds,
> > stuck in the bilge. From what I can tell it seems to be
distributed
> > outboard port and starboard, mostly under dressers and berths,
and
> > doesn't seem to impact centerline headroom at all.
>
> 4700 pounds sure sounds like a lot of ballest on a boat that small!
>
> LONG MICRO is almost as big and only requires 520 pounds of lead to
> keep her self-righting. So St. Valery requires over over 8 times
the
> ballest to keep it from tipping over it seems.
>
> Nels

Free surface effect. Water sloshing around in the bilge does nothing for
righting moment. Bad example. The problem I have is that I understand what's
going on and just lack the words to explain it adequately. Bolger hints at
it the now oft quoted lines in BWAOM.

We had a huge discussion about this on the Woodenboat forum last year (with
real NA's participating) , the link to the thread can be found here. I've
got post the images again, but the words are there.

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=00
7481

Basically it all depends on how you draw the envelope.



----- Original Message -----
From: "oneillparker" <jboatguy@...>
| If you put the water ballast back in the boat, and then flood the
| boat enough to cover the ballast, measure, then take the jugs out and
| measure again, the amount of force required to tip the boat a given
| amount will be equal.

Do you mean the French Canadians !!! ? I'm told they can be a bit strange, or
are you talking south of your border and across the lakes? !!

Bruce Hector <bruce_hector@...> wrote:--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com,
"David Romasco" <dromasco@g...> wrote:
> But Bruce, those narrowboats are built that way because the Brits
> prematurely shipped all the rugged types off to Oz,

Nah, they just shipped the ones that got caught to Oz.

The craftier. sneakier, more devious, luckier rascals became Canadians!

I won't say anything nasty about who they gave us for neighbours.

Bruce Hector




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Hugo Tyson <hhetyson@y...> wrote:
> Do you mean the French Canadians

Es imposible por les Quebequois a ser estrange, o seran sans amable.
Translation from horrible grade school French: (It is impossible for
the grenoilles (frogs) to be strange or without friendship)

I believe I was referring to the Manitobans.

Everyone knows how archaic, rural (consider the Hutterites and
Dukabors)  and disinterested in things nautical they are! Excepting
the brave sailors who conquered Lake Winnipeg adn Lake Manitoba, that
is. And the couriers-de-bois who first mapped and settled the area. To
say nothing of the Metis who made a homeland there and suffered the
first (and so far only) Canadian civil war.

Bo'sun Blackheart Bruce
Desperately attempting to get my mouth off of my boot.

p.s. I think adding a foot or so to the beam of a Idaho would be
seconded only by adding a yard or so to the Illinois.

John,

back last summer I had a correspondence with PCB about aadding up to
30" to CCS, to give room for an enclosed head and a small galley, both
at the aft end of the cabin. There was also talk of adding a bit more
to the rear deck to allow better storage of more fuel tanks. Bolger
said that the extra length would make her a better boat in all ways,
if one were willing to absorb the greater expense of a larger motor
and more fuel (or silling to go slower; me :-)

Of course, the expansion I'm thinking abuot is way more than we'd
discussed. Before I'd make such a boat, I'd get Bolger's opinion on
it.

Cheers/fader

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "vicskiff" <john.ewing@s...> wrote:
> I have been playing with the idea of an insert of something between
> 6 and 12 in. running the length of the hull, on either CCS or
> Michalak's AF4. This would widen the living space commensurately. On
> the CCS saloon launch, being plumb-sided, this would result in a
> pram bow -- which, if desired, could be returned to a point by
> adding a 'falsie'.
>
> John

Bruce,

I keep reading mention of the Illinois, but haven't seen even lines.
Anyone know where they're hedden?

Cheers/Fader

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hector" <bruce_hector@h...>
wrote:
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Hugo Tyson <hhetyson@y...> wrote:
> > Do you mean the French Canadians
>
> Es imposible por les Quebequois a ser estrange, o seran sans amable.
> Translation from horrible grade school French: (It is impossible for
> the grenoilles (frogs) to be strange or without friendship)
>
> I believe I was referring to the Manitobans.
>
> Everyone knows how archaic, rural (consider the Hutterites and
> Dukabors)  and disinterested in things nautical they are! Excepting
> the brave sailors who conquered Lake Winnipeg adn Lake Manitoba,
that
> is. And the couriers-de-bois who first mapped and settled the area.
To
> say nothing of the Metis who made a homeland there and suffered the
> first (and so far only) Canadian civil war.
>
> Bo'sun Blackheart Bruce
> Desperately attempting to get my mouth off of my boot.
>
> p.s. I think adding a foot or so to the beam of a Idaho would be
> seconded only by adding a yard or so to the Illinois.

99%, give or take, of ballasted sailboats since man climbed off a
floating log have been sinkers.
I like your chances of not sinking.
DonB


> But, if disaster struck and she filled with water, she's now a
SINKER
> and down she goes.
> John O'Neill

No Nels, it was Jim Young. I built a 5.7 in about 1973. But more of a
performance boat than to suit people here. Fast but a little scary.
DonB
>
> I believe you are familiar with some of John Welsford's designs?
> Which ones of his use water ballest? I recall many years ago that
> there were a series of trailer sailers from NZ that used water
> ballest and named "Hartley Trailer Sailers" Do you recall those
> designs. They were multi chine stitch and glue constrution as well.
> Very advanced for their time.
> Cheers Nels

Sakari,

thanks for the reminder. I think I could live quite nicely with good
sitting headroom and a Birdwatcher slot for standing room. The
"central cabin" would have a solid sitting headroom top with long
sliding hatches either end. In worm weather, a large rainfly at
standing height would cover the whole cabin. In cold weather, a laddie
can go outside for a stretch if needed.

Cheers/Fader
Did you find a home for your CCS? I reallyu wished I were your
neighbor when I read that you were selling it on :-)

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Sakari Aaltonen <sakari@a...> wrote:
d wondered about it's potential for a "cheapish" Florida
> > live-aboard.
>
> The CCS looks a lot larger than it is. The cabin height is only
about 150cm (5').
>
> Sakari Aaltonen

Nels wrote:
> I recall many years ago that
> there were a series of trailer sailers from NZ that used water
> ballest and named "Hartley Trailer Sailers" Do you recall those
> designs. They were multi chine stitch and glue constrution as well.
> Very advanced for their time.

I have a Hartley TS16 in my garage, which I may get around
to fixing up at some point (needs a new transom). It does
not have any ballast at all, unless you count the steel
centreboard, but the wide beam provides considerable
stability. The Hartley designs predate stitch and glue
construction - they are built "traditional" ply-on-frame.

Bruce Fountain
Senior Software Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia

Take a peak here:

http://tinyurl.com/yr3en

for a link that, I hope, takes you to the largest of the state series
power sharpies.

B. Hector

Anyone coming in tonight?

Bruce Hector

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@w...> wrote:
> No Nels, it was Jim Young. I built a 5.7 in about 1973. But more of
a
> performance boat than to suit people here. Fast but a little scary.
> DonB
> >
Hi Don,

That's right - Jim Young was the designer. Also they were not S&G as
someone else corrected me on. They were nicely shaped hulls and like
you say, had good performance. Seemed quite advanced at the time.

Thanks, Nels

Oh yea, lets here it for TRADITION.

TRADITION once told us we should sling the rudder on the 'steerboard'
side because "99%, give or take, of sailboats since man climbed off a
floating log have been steered with oars"

TRADITION once told us sails should be hung athwartships
because "99%, give or take, of sailboats since man climbed off a
floating log - with the exception of a few outlandish Mediterrian
rigs, and that ain't but a pond next to the big wide oceans - have
had athwartships sails"

TRADITION tells us the underwater shape should look like a mackeral.

TRAIDITON tells us sailboats should have low freeboard.

TRADITION tell us booms should sweep the deck.

TRADITION tells us there should be long overhangs fore and aft.

TRADITION tells us that catboat rudders should be shallow and long
and hang off the stern, and sharpie rudders should be shallow and
long and balanced and hang underneath.

TRADITION tells us marconi rigs are inherently superior and gaff rigs
have too much weight aloft, sag off to leeward and are prone to break.

TRADITION tells us all sailboats worthy of attention need high
tension rigs.

Now TRADITION tells us that, as you say, "99%, give or take, of
ballasted sailboats since man climbed off a floating log have been
sinkers."

I say, what TRADITION really tells us is that things change, uses
change, technology changes, priorities change, values change. And
here we are in the 21st century with traditional design procedures,
of all disciplines, being SWEPT out the door by computer aided
design. Using it, it's possible to predict vessel behavior and
stability over a wide range of conditions, and the era of the SINKER
is at an end. It won't happen tomorrow, or next week. But the day
will come when a blue-water sailboat bum can ask a sailboat dealer if
the dreamboat he or she is eyeing has positive flotation, and not be
laughed out the door...

The only real TRADITION is called CHANGE.

John O'Neill


--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@w...> wrote:
> 99%, give or take, of ballasted sailboats since man climbed off a
> floating log have been sinkers.
> I like your chances of not sinking.
> DonB
>
>
> > But, if disaster struck and she filled with water, she's now a
> SINKER
> > and down she goes.
> > John O'Neill

Free surface effect? I don't follow. Nor did I say anything about
water ballast 'sloshing around in the bilge,' because you're right,
sloshing water does nothing for righting moment - but neither does
water ballast in a bilge filled with sloshing water. picture those
plastic jugs of water 'ballast' tied with string to a frame member in
the bilge of a skiff half filled with water. The jugs meader around
at neutral bounancy (disregarding the jug itself) contributing zero
to stability until the boat is heeled enough to bring a jug out of
the water.

But in a dry bilge where the water in the jugs no longer has to
displace it's own volume in water before it acts to weigh down the
hull the jug is continually pressing against the bottom of the hull,
weighing the boat down, adding to stability.

I think your statement that it depends on how you "draw the envelope"
is dead on. In a given boat, whether ballast in put in the boat or
tacked on outside the boat has the potential to make a huge
difference depending on the density of the ballast, and can actually
contribute nothing to stability (water) or even give negative
stabilty (foam) because tacking on ballast outside a given hull in
effect adds to the overall volume of the hull. Placeing the same
ballast inside the hull makes the boat float deeper, but doesn't
change the shape of the boat - no matter what the displacement of the
ballast itself - thus potentially adding to stability depending where
it is placed.

On a boat STILL ON PAPER, the distinctions between outside and inside
water ballast can be less clear depending on the priorities of the
designer, because one way or the other room has to be found for the
ballast. If the boat has to be given more volume in order to add
ballast without compromising other priorities (like headroom) then
the distinction between 'inside' and 'outside' ballast - as far as
the designer is concerned - becomes fuzzy - because if to make room
for the ballast the designer has to deepen the keel or harden the
bilge - thus changing the overall volume - the designer is, in
effect, tacking on the ballast 'outside' despite the fact that the
builder will actually be placing the ballast 'inside.'

John O'Neill





--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@m...>
wrote:
> Free surface effect. Water sloshing around in the bilge does
nothing for
> righting moment. Bad example. ....

>
> ....Basically it all depends on how you draw the envelope.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "oneillparker" <jboatguy@c...>
> | If you put the water ballast back in the boat, and then flood the
> | boat enough to cover the ballast, measure, then take the jugs out
and
> | measure again, the amount of force required to tip the boat a
given
> | amount will be equal.