--- wturn <wturn@...> wrote:
> I saw two boats with outboards mounted near the
> front of the boat in
> the center of the boat.   Would imagine they were in
> a motor well of
> some sort.  They were built of plywood and appeared
> to have a large
> live well in the rear of the boat.  The bottom was
> completely flat and
> the bow rose up sharply also with a flat bottom.
>
> Anyway, posting here to see if anybody knows of a
> similar design and
> why the outboards were mounted in front.
> Bill

    Bill,
   The boats that you saw are what's called a Net Boat.
The well in the back is to hold the gill net and when
a school of fish is spotted then the net is run off
the back of the boat surrounding and capturing the
fish.
    The engine was mounted in front so it would not get
tangled with the net. Also because of the front
mounting of the eng. these boats will got through an
unbelievable amount of shallow water. The one that I
had was 21ft. long with a 50hp. eng. and would run in
6 to 8 inches of water.
    Now adays it is illiegal to use gill nets inshore
here in Florida but the boats still make great shallow
water fishing boats.
       Dean
     Excommerial fisherman and miss it still!!!!!


__________________________________________________
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I've seen boats like that in Florida.  I think they are used for some
sort of commercial fishing.  Keeps the rear deck clear for work.

It may have been what's called a "tunnel hull".  Almost a catamaran
type of thing.  Good for shallow water and stability, but you would
think the boat would handle funny with the moter up forward like that.

gbb
North GA/USA

--- In bolger@y..., "wturn" <wturn@y...> wrote:
> I saw two boats with outboards mounted near the front of the boat in
> the center of the boat.   Would imagine they were in a motor well of
> some sort.  They were built of plywood and appeared to have a large
> live well in the rear of the boat.  The bottom was completely flat
and
> the bow rose up sharply also with a flat bottom.
>
> Anyway, posting here to see if anybody knows of a similar design and
> why the outboards were mounted in front.
>
> Unfortunately it was nighttime and it was on the highway so did not
> get a realy good look. The location was Clearwater, FL.
>
> Following is a (very) rough sketch:
>
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/wturn/vwp?.dir=/mystery+boat&.src=ph&.dnm=f
ront+outboard+boat.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%
3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/wturn/lst%3f%26.dir=/mystery%2bboat%26.src=ph%
26.view=t
>
> If the link doesnn't work, this would should:
> http://photos.yahoo.com/wturn  Navigate to the Mystery boat folder.
>
> Bill

--- In bolger@y..., "John Cupp" <caj@k...> wrote:
> I hope you opt to make the changes
> for the Navigator...

Yes, I have decided to go with a
Navigator.  The Navigator plans
presume that you are modifying
a standard Micro anyway.  [As
they call for you to take your
dimensions from measurments from
the hull.]  Plus, I am curious to
try a Chinese Gaff rig.

Ironically, Rennie had started
the hull as a Navigator, and then
after his dad got sick, he cut it
down to the standard Micro.

I spent yesterday working on a bunch of
tasks, the biggest being removing
and replacing portions of the keel backbone
strip, which was crooking by over an inch.
[I had to fix it, as a crooked keel seemed
like trouble.]

I also laminated the curved beam
that will support the aft end of
the forward deck.  Hope to install that
beam today.  Plus, I plan to remove
Rennie's transom and replace it with
the one that I had already built, as
I liked my motor mount board more than
his, [and he chose to put the boomkin
hole on the 'wrong' side, at least
according to my taste].

I also schemed up a way to calculate the
weight of my lead keel.  Using a lever
arm, and my 200 lb body, & moving the
fulcrum to find the balance point, using
algebra, it calcs out at only 350 pounds,
versus the specified 400 lbs.   As I
plan to have two lead/acid batteries
in the cabin, I am undecided whether to
add some weight to the keel.

> This boat was always destined for your
> use so you should name it with that in mind.

I am still favoring the name:  "PCB's"

--- In bolger@y..., Susan Davis <futabachan@y...> wrote:
> Dear David and Susan,
>
> Just to let you know that we have
> done some work on the INSOLENT-60
> design.
  ...
> Sincerely,
>
> Phil

This is really exciting!

I was just revisting the
simple transition from David's
'Teal' in post #29 of this group,
to now an INSOLENT-60.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/29

Sue --

I've send a few notes to you over the past months, including last
night when I got the same exciting note that you did. Are you out
there?

YIBB,

David
--

C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office  (212) 247-0296

Wow, one weekend and you've got the keel poured, the hull built and
you're working on deck beams : )
This boat is now in the right hands...It's begging for the Navigator
version.
Years ago I sailed on a friends Folkboat that he converted to chinese
junk rig, lots of fun.

Keep us all posted on your progress, and pics, we need pictures !!!!

Rick

brucehallman wrote:

> --- In bolger@y..., "John Cupp" <caj@k...> wrote:
> > I hope you opt to make the changes
> > for the Navigator...
>
> Yes, I have decided to go with a
> Navigator. The Navigator plans
> presume that you are modifying
> a standard Micro anyway. [As
> they call for you to take your
> dimensions from measurments from
> the hull.] Plus, I am curious to
> try a Chinese Gaff rig.
>
> Ironically, Rennie had started
> the hull as a Navigator, and then
> after his dad got sick, he cut it
> down to the standard Micro.
>
> I spent yesterday working on a bunch of
> tasks, the biggest being removing
> and replacing portions of the keel backbone
> strip, which was crooking by over an inch.
> [I had to fix it, as a crooked keel seemed
> like trouble.]
>
> I also laminated the curved beam
> that will support the aft end of
> the forward deck. Hope to install that
> beam today. Plus, I plan to remove
> Rennie's transom and replace it with
> the one that I had already built, as
> I liked my motor mount board more than
> his, [and he chose to put the boomkin
> hole on the 'wrong' side, at least
> according to my taste].
>
> I also schemed up a way to calculate the
> weight of my lead keel. Using a lever
> arm, and my 200 lb body, & moving the
> fulcrum to find the balance point, using
> algebra, it calcs out at only 350 pounds,
> versus the specified 400 lbs. As I
> plan to have two lead/acid batteries
> in the cabin, I am undecided whether to
> add some weight to the keel.
>
> > This boat was always destined for your
> > use so you should name it with that in mind.
>
> I am still favoring the name: "PCB's"
>

I use plastic disposable pastry or cake decorating bags, find them
at a cooking supply store. They are cone shaped and you can snip off
the end for varying the size of the filet. To fill the bag I have a
tin can of a smaller diameter than the wide end of the bag mounted
on my bench. The bag is dropped in the can and the top of the bag is
folded over the edge of the can, this holds the bag open for filling.

fritz koschmann





> I used a quart ziplock back with a clipped corner to apply the
> filling material.  That is a great trick!  QUESTION;  How do you
get
> the goop into the bag?  I fiddled around with my stir stick and
more
> or less raked it in there, but it was a hassle.  If the filling
> material is as stiff as peanut butter (and it needs to be, if you
> don't want it to sag), then it is going to be tough to transfer it
> into the bag.  Anyone have a GOOD way?
>
> George
> North GA/USA

--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
>
> I've send a few notes to you over the past months, including last
> night when I got the same exciting note that you did. Are you out
> there?

Yep, I'm here.  I have, in fact, been replying to your mail;
perhaps there's some technical hiccup between here and there?

The executive summary: I've been biding my time waiting for the
plans by doing lots of hiking.  And my job is uncertain enough
at the moment that I'm going to have to wait until things clear
up before I can start construction.  That may or may not have
an impact on my construction schedule, given that I couldn't
really get going until spring in any event.

The other variable is that matters with a certain special someone
have been going rather well lately.... *smile*

  -- Sue --
(very glad that PCB put in a double berth :-) )

--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>

> That may or may not have
> an impact on my construction schedule...

But when do the advance tickets go on sale?


Peter

All this talk of making a micro into a micro navigator has caught my
attention.  Off season ramblings...(there is 6" of snow on poor
Firefly).

I will ask the dumb question of the day.  What is the difference
between a Micro Navigator and a Micro? and, Where can I see a set of
drawings that shows the differences?  I have begun to ponder what I
will do when the keel assembly on Firefly rots out, which it will do
eventually.

These offseason ruminations can be quite dangerous.

David Jost
"a mind is a terrible thing to waste."

Hah. And I'm going sailing tomorrow! 60's and a west wind at 10 knots. Can't
ask for more, though the water is a bit nippy.

Micro navigator is a "cruising" version of the little cruiser. Chinese gaff
main, pilothouse and no cockput.

Good article here:
http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/files/navigator1.pdf
----- Original Message -----
From: "dnjost" <djost@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 7:20 PM
Subject: [bolger] ugh, oh...the off season


| All this talk of making a micro into a micro navigator has caught my
| attention.  Off season ramblings...(there is 6" of snow on poor
| Firefly).
|
| I will ask the dumb question of the day.  What is the difference
| between a Micro Navigator and a Micro? and, Where can I see a set of
| drawings that shows the differences?  I have begun to ponder what I
| will do when the keel assembly on Firefly rots out, which it will do
| eventually.
|
| These offseason ruminations can be quite dangerous.
|
| David Jost
| "a mind is a terrible thing to waste."
|
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
| - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts and <snip> away
| - To order plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
| - Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
| - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|

---  "dnjost" <djost@m...> wrote:
> Off season ramblings...(there is 6" of snow

Here in California, it is so warm that
I had to use the Raka slow hardener
because the fast hardener was firing
off to quickly. :)

> What is the difference
> between a Micro Navigator and a Micro?

A scan of the MAIB article at:
www.boatdesign.com/micro/files/navigator1.pdf

There used to be a really cool
isometric drawing of Navigator
on the web somewhere, but it seems
to be gone now. [or I can't find it]

Both have the exact same hull,
but the Navigator has a 'glass
house' cabin, which is lenghtened
aftwards from the normal Micro cabin,
Also, there are two facing 6'6"
berths/bench seats.  Navigator has a
Chinese Gaff rig with two dozen sheets
and lines for fine tuning and reefing
sails entirely from inside the cabin.

> Where can I see a set of
> drawings that shows the differences?

PB&F would happily fax it to you I'm sure.

Hi David,
        Nothing like planning ahead,eh David? Unless you have made
some sort of major booboo,it should take a fair number of years for
your keel assembly to rot out especially since you trailer sail your
Micro.
        The biggest difference I can see between the two is that you
end up with much more "interior" living room with the Navigator
version.The shelter may be worth it in always rainy environments or
pure tropical sun conditions.On such a small boat,one big down side
(at least for me) is that you really do not have much choice between
being "inside" or "out".You are always "inside" and I like to spend
more time "outside" when sailing.Being able to feel the wind on my
face when sailing,is critical to me,as I have no electronic
instruments to otherwise guide me.Also,if you do much sailing with
more then one person on board,it is sometimes nice to be able to "get
away from" the other or at least creat the illusion of seperate
living spaces.I will leave it to your imagination the use of the Port-
a-Potty right smack in the middle of the cockpit/helm/cabin/sleeping
quarters type of arrangement the Navigator style imposes.
        The rig is something else all together.While it may offer an
advantage over the conventional Micro rig,it is my belief that this
is mostly a theoretical advantage and is really more of a constant
attention sponge then the easy,almost mindless simplicity of the
Micro rig.This is particularly true for the basic sheltered day
sailing most of us do,in high summer,when the winds can sometimes be
fickle.
        On the other hand,if you intend to do some serious heavy
weather sailing,along the coast or(God forbid) off-shore,then the
Navigator rig does appear to make the entire sail handling business
relatively safer as it is accomplished from within the small confines
of the cabin.
        One final thought for your consideration;the Navigator rig
does not strike me as a very "clean" rig.Too much drag for such a
small boat where every little bit of "slickness" can go along way
toward hitting that magic number of 4.5......hull speed.The height of
the Navigator cabin being just another element in the too much drag
department.
        So,there's my .02 cents worth.Sorry cannot provide you with a
scan of the drawing and if it is any help to you,I would have gone
the Navigator route in a heartbeat,had it been available when I built
my Micro.That way,all of the above would at least been from first
hand experience and not just my gut feelings :-)
       Happy schemming!!
                                              Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who is beginning to find our -16 wind chill factor a
wee pain in the bum,from along the shores of the nippy St.Lawrence....








--- In bolger@y..., "dnjost" <djost@m...> wrote:
>
> I will ask the dumb question of the day.  What is the difference
> between a Micro Navigator and a Micro? I have begun to ponder what
I
> will do when the keel assembly on Firefly rots out, which it will
do
> eventually.
>
.
>
> David Jost
> "a mind is a terrible thing to waste."

>Yep, I'm here.  I have, in fact, been replying to your mail;
>perhaps there's some technical hiccup between here and there?

There must be some sort of problem. I've been send notes cc'd to both
your yahoo and sue.net address. The sue.net are bouncing with a
"can't find domain name" error. I just checked
<david@...> and it's working fine, so I haven't a
clue why your notes aren't making it to me  :-(

>The other variable is that matters with a certain special someone
>have been going rather well lately.... *smile*
>(very glad that PCB put in a double berth :-) )

I told you that double berth would come in handy!


--

C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office  (212) 247-0296

>This is really exciting!
>
>I was just revisting the
>simple transition from David's
>'Teal' in post #29 of this group,
>to now an INSOLENT-60.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/29


(BBBB is for Bolger Boat Building Brotherhood.)

That Bruce Hallman would go digging around for my first post is a
pretty good indication of the comradery that we have here on this
group. For every crumudgeon on the list who insists that our plywood
dream will be dashed on the rocks of undervalued man-hours, noisy
nights at anchor, poor windward performance, and low resale;  there's
always someone ready to counter post (usually one of the Bruces)
that life is not measured in dollars and sense (sic) and that hours
spent working hard on something you love rarely yield to any sort of
spread-sheet analysis.

Given the content of message 29 (above), I'm going to share with the
group a note I sent to PCB&F last week.

********

David Ryan
190 South Fairview Ave
Montauk, NY  11954

Phil C. Bolger & Friends
P.O. Box 1209
Gloucester, MA  01930


Dear Phil and Suzanne,

Like countless others, when I first encountered your designs I was
swept up in what can only be described as a fever. Before the paint
was dry on my Teal I had already bought plans for the Light Scooner,
and Gloucester Gull, as well as adding "New Instant Boats" and "Boats
with an Open Mind" to my library.

Somewhere in there I made Bob Wise's acquaintance. As my dreams of a
"Big Bolger Box" began to take shape, Bob was a great reality check,
as well as a source of encouragement, (his fundamental view being
"Yes, it's really as easy as it looks. All you have to do it do it.)
He also had cautionary tales of "Bolger dreams" gone wrong where the
resulting boat was neither a Bolger, nor inexpensive, nor satisfying
to the builder.

Aside from our interest in boats, Bob and I also work in the same
business. But Bob works at a much higher level than I do, and that's
where this little story takes a funny twist.

Earlier this Fall I was asked to consider a project that might
involve production in Afghanistan. I knew Bob had been there last
year, so I fired off an e-mail to him asking him for any advice he
might have. The long and the short of it is that Bob will be working
with me on this next project. I wouldn't go as far as saying he's
come on board because we're both Bolger boat builders, but that
didn't hurt!  It has most certainly given us a common point of
reference. Low budget filmmaking is a lot like low budget boat
building - the key to success is being able to differentiate between
the things you need to have and the things you would like to have. A
degree of open-mindedness about what constitutes "need" vs. "want" is
helpful, but as in boat-building, too much "open-mindedness" can
quickly lead down the path to disappointment if is is not tempered by
reality!

As I said, Bob isn't coming along on this adventure because I've
built a few of your designs. But I'm quite sure I never would have
found my way to Bob if my first experiece (the Teal) had not been so
encouraging! I'm sure his contribution to this next project is going
to be invaluable, and at least some of the credit for that flows back
to Gloucester.

Yours,

David

********

  From the first day, PCB had completely captured my imagination (see
post #59  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/59  ) but I
never would have dreamed of the path I began heading down as I
started cobbling together that Teal. Along that path boat building
and the resulting vessels have been frequently provided refuge when
the weight and strain of work and life in general. Indeed, our
decision to take on the I60 was a much a way to try and give
ourselves something to be excited about in a world that seemed to
have spun completely out of control. I'm quite sure that obsessing
about the I60 distracted me from obsessing about darker issues that
were far beyond my influence.

That for me is the lesson of the Instant Boats and all their
descendents. Life can slip away as we worry about the things we can't
control. There are always a thousand reasons why it can't be done; or
why if it's done THAT WAY, our efforts will be wasted, our dreams
destroyed.

Building Bolger's boats has taught me again and again that focusing
on the things within my means and within my control is far more
productive, and the rewards are immeasurable.

YIBB,

David
--

C.E.P.
415 W.46th Street
New York, New York 10036
http://www.crumblingempire.com
Mobile (646) 325-8325
Office  (212) 247-0296

I saw one of these in action many years ago, I believe it was off
Chincoteague island but am not positive now. There were two youngish and
very fit guys running a long net off the beach in mild surf conditions, and
the way they handled that strange boat was so remarkable it made me stop and
watch long enough that my girlfriend eventually had to drag me away, even
though I was not yet the boat nut I've since become. They'd start with the
boat on the beach where they'd just driven it up on the sand; with the motor
kicked up and using the boat's rocker, one guy would push at the bow and one
at the stern to quickly pivot the boat 180 degrees, then anchor one end of
the net on the beach, push the boat off the beach as soon as the next wave
floated it, drop the motor and fire it up as soon as they had enough water
and blast out through the 2-3' breaking waves to set their net in a big loop
just outside the breaker zone and come back in 50-100 yards down the beach,
full-speed, and drive it right up the beach at perhaps 20mph or better. I'd
never seen an outboard take this kind of abuse except in a James Bond movie,
apparently without suffering any damage - it would be at full power until it
hit the beach, at which point the driver shut it down at exactly the right
moment; the motor would neatly tip up and the boat would slide perhaps 20
feet further up on the wet sand before coming to a stop, nearly beyond reach
of the waves but not quite - just close enough that waiting thru a few waves
would bring them one with enough water to easily relaunch. Then they hauled
in their net from the beach, collected their catch, folded their net
carefully back in over the stern, spun the boat on the sand and repeated the
whole operation again, all very swiftly coordenated movements with barely a
word spoken. Very impressive performance, those two guys never stopped
moving, and I'd never seen such precise boat handling on both land and
water.

Paul L.

Subject: Re: [bolger] mystery boat

I have seen the running up the beach technique before. I lived in the
village of Elim (pop 300) in Western AK for three years. It is a coastal
village on the North side of Norton Sound on Seward Peninsula, 80NM East
of Nome. They keep the boats anchored off the village which has a sandy
beach. When a storm was coming in the fall, each boat owner would fire
up his boat and head full bore for the beach, cutting the motor just as
it touched, it would kick up and the boat would slide 2-3 boat lengths
up the steep beach. Every body working together would go from boat to
boat and haul it the rest ofthe way up to high ground. They called it
"flying the boat" up the beach.

HJ

Paul Lefebvre wrote:

>I saw one of these in action many years ago, I believe it was off
>Chincoteague island but am not positive now. There were two youngish and
>very fit guys running a long net off the beach in mild surf conditions, and
>the way they handled that strange boat was so remarkable it made me stop and
>watch long enough that my girlfriend eventually had to drag me away, even
>though I was not yet the boat nut I've since become. They'd start with the
>boat on the beach where they'd just driven it up on the sand; with the motor
>kicked up and using the boat's rocker, one guy would push at the bow and one
>at the stern to quickly pivot the boat 180 degrees, then anchor one end of
>the net on the beach, push the boat off the beach as soon as the next wave
>floated it, drop the motor and fire it up as soon as they had enough water
>and blast out through the 2-3' breaking waves to set their net in a big loop
>just outside the breaker zone and come back in 50-100 yards down the beach,
>full-speed, and drive it right up the beach at perhaps 20mph or better. I'd
>never seen an outboard take this kind of abuse except in a James Bond movie,
>apparently without suffering any damage - it would be at full power until it
>hit the beach, at which point the driver shut it down at exactly the right
>moment; the motor would neatly tip up and the boat would slide perhaps 20
>feet further up on the wet sand before coming to a stop, nearly beyond reach
>of the waves but not quite - just close enough that waiting thru a few waves
>would bring them one with enough water to easily relaunch. Then they hauled
>in their net from the beach, collected their catch, folded their net
>carefully back in over the stern, spun the boat on the sand and repeated the
>whole operation again, all very swiftly coordenated movements with barely a
>word spoken. Very impressive performance, those two guys never stopped
>moving, and I'd never seen such precise boat handling on both land and
>water.
>
>Paul L.
>
>Subject: Re: [bolger] mystery boat
>

--- In bolger@y..., "Peter Lenihan" <ellengaest@b...> wrote:
> end up with much more "interior" living room with the Navigator

True, I guess.  Note that the sliding roof hatch of Navigator
extends 4 feet of the 8 feet of roof.  The rear hatch is removable,
ditto for the forward hatch, and the center forward window opens.
Not exactly 'outside' but I suspect Navigator gets plenty of fresh
air.  On San Francisco Bay, especially in the summer, you get a
stiff cold (sometimes foggy) offshore breeze, so shelter mignt be
welcome.  The tiny rear deck 4 feet by 3 feet, is small, but not too
small to sit upon.  Similar to the tiny forward deck.  I bet the
forward hatch would be a happy place to stand and enjoy the view
while one's boat mate uses the porta-potty in the 'master cabin'
<grin>.

--- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
> > end up with much more "interior" living room with the Navigator
>
> > Not exactly 'outside' but I suspect Navigator gets plenty of
fresh
> air. I bet the
> forward hatch would be a happy place to stand and enjoy the view
> while one's boat mate uses the porta-potty in the 'master cabin'
> <grin>.

Hi Bruce,
    I am sure that the Navigator has many means of maintaining plenty
of circulating air and certainly the Bay is a good spot for this
version.I would love to sail there one day,just for the thrill of it!
    As to the forward hatch providing a place to retire to while
another enjoys a thunderbox session,lets hope it is not raining nor
too windy :-) This also leads to the question;who is driving the
boat?!
    One weakness I noticed,however was that if someone does stand/sit
up forward near the mainmast for any length of time,the Micro begins
to nose-dive.That is,water begins to flood up through the drain holes
in the bottom sinking the bow ever lower until the water starts to
enter through the first step.Next thing you know,water is up to your
ankles and the stern is cocked up at a weird angle.I never stayed
there much longer to see just what would happen ultimately since my
crew,who was at the helm, began to make Italien panic noises and I
had to go back to driving the boat.
     At anyrate,I look forward to seeing how she works out for you
Bruce and never forget,the Navigator version can always be modified
to the conventional Micro ;-)
                                            Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,glad to be inside away from the now -21 chill factored
wind.............

P.S. Bruce,I scanned some of the Champlain photos(courtesy of
WATERCRAFT) over on Bolger2 "PHOTO" section but something weird
happend to the best shot of them all.Will correct the problem this
evening.Enjoy!

--- In bolger@y..., David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
> Building Bolger's boats has taught me again and again that focusing
> on the things within my means and within my control is far more
> productive, and the rewards are immeasurable.
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
> --

All of it well said David and very true,especially the above
paragraph! Although some may well argue otherwise,I believe my own
sanity has been saved/maintained through strict adherence to the
above and the presence/support of my Pesky Crew!
                                     Happy Dreams!
Peter Lenihan,up to his ears in schemes for deep winter building
despite the madness all around me at work...........

--- "Peter Lenihan" <ellengaest@b...> wrote:

>    ...if someone does stand/sit
> up forward near the mainmast for
> any length of time,the Micro begins
> to nose-dive. That is,water begins to
> flood up through the drain holes
> in the bottom sinking the bow ever
> lower until the water starts to
> enter through the first step.

I may be a heretic, but I a leaning
towards deviating from the plans by
omitting the 'steps' on the bow
'transom'.  If I fell overboard
I think I would much prefer to climb
in over the stern anyway.

Good plan!I would further suggest that those little drain holes in
the bottom be either elliminated or made in such a fashion that they
could both receive a plug.Another thought may be to make the platform
water tight with drain holes out the side(above the waterline).The
space bellow could serve as either a nifty little alcove for odds and
ends or even for a slide out tray on which the galley unit would be
located.
And,of course,a bunch of us look forward to your pictures as things
progress :-D

Peter Lenihan







--- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
>
> I may be a heretic, but I a leaning
> towards deviating from the plans by
> omitting the 'steps' on the bow
> 'transom'.  If I fell overboard
> I think I would much prefer to climb
> in over the stern anyway.

--- "Peter Lenihan" <ellengaest@b...> wrote:
> I would further suggest that
> those little drain holes in
> the bottom be either eliminated
> or made in such a fashion that they
> could both receive a plug.

I think those drain holes through the
bottom in the forward splash well are
important to allow the drainage of rain
water and mud/slop from the anchor and warp.

The Navigator plans show 60% of the
volume of this space filled with
buoyancy foam anyway.  There would come
a point that the foam would support the
weight of any person standing up there.

Those 'steps' through the bow transom also serve
as a 'Bolgeresque' statement of  sorts. ...chop
off the pointy bow, and freeflooding bow well...

"A gratitious mockery of Right-Thinking
Boatmen and other snobs."

Why own a Micro if  you don't want to flaunt it?

I guess I must have the steps.

Peter!  Shouldn't scare your crew!

Interesting that this exact same thing happened to a friends Micro in my
recent Eufaula cruise. The bow well filled up so much through the step holes
that water was coming in the vent. This was beating in large (averaging a
bit less than 3 ft) waves,

Also, on the moderators site there is mention of running under spinaker and
the bow well flooding and bringing water aboard via the forward vent...

Is this a character problem for the Micro?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lenihan" <ellengaest@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 6:51 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: ugh, oh...the off season


>    One weakness I noticed,however was that if someone does stand/sit
> up forward near the mainmast for any length of time,the Micro begins
> to nose-dive.That is,water begins to flood up through the drain holes
> in the bottom sinking the bow ever lower until the water starts to
> enter through the first step.Next thing you know,water is up to your
> ankles and the stern is cocked up at a weird angle.I never stayed
> there much longer to see just what would happen ultimately since my
> crew,who was at the helm, began to make Italien panic noises and I
> had to go back to driving the boat.

--- "Richard Spelling" <richard@c...> wrote:
> the bow well flooding and bringing
> water aboard via the forward vent...
>
> Is this a character problem for the Micro?

The drain holes in the bottom of
the well are specified at only 1"
diameter [two of them].

The _Lovers_ essay warns that the bow
vent does 'spit'.

I can hardly believe that water could
come in the step holes, and not flow
out the step holes, to the extreme
extent to flood an high as the vent.

The vent is well above the lower step
hole.  Spitting and splashing through
the vent hole I can believe.  I think
a revamping of the baffling of the
forward vent would be smart.  The Bolger
AS-29 has a more elaborate baffling detail,
which must work better.

see:
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/AS29/

I believe the bow well flooding would not happen nearly to the extent that
Peter describes if the bow foam flotation blocks specified in the plans were
installed to float your weight when you're standing up there; you might sink
the bow slightly by flooding through those drain holes, but your weight
would be offset by the foam long before the water reaches the lower step. If
I'm not mistaken, Peter opted to leave out that foam and keep that the space
open for storing more useful things; I've read accounts of others who did
likewise, accepting the perfectly reasonable tradeoff of having to stay out
of the bow well while under sail. But this discussion has given me a new
idea - making an enclosed space, accessible from inside at the head of the
berths, for storage AND bow-well flotation....  hmmmmmm... I'll have to see
how much space my anchor would need, maybe leave an anchor slot in the
middle with a small deck over it, and build flotation/storage boxes on
either side, cut some small access holes in bulkhead 'A'. The only liability
I can see is I'd effectively lose my 'collision bulkhead'; if the bow hits
something, the water could come inside. might be noisier at anchor too.
Perhaps a watertight hatch for access to each cubby?

Paul Lefebvre, reverting to armchair building now that winter has finally
descended on Cape Cod.....

Bruce,
      I never did put foam in my forward well since I prefered to use
all the space for my 2 anchors and several hundred feet of line.This
would explain why I can flood her easily by the bow when
underway.Being 6' and weighing in at over 200lbs also goes a long way
in getting her down.......The drain holes also help after I take my
shower.All the soapy water not only keeps things clean in the anchor
well but does not linger to become a slippery surface!
      Those crazy steps work well when approaching a beach and if the
slope of the beach is right,you can alight without getting your feet
wet! They are horrible devices for actual extraction of ones body
from deep water however and unless endowed with great upper body
strength,any attempts will be foiled until you are near exhaustion.
Much better to use the side of the transom which is boomkin-free to
mount one of those nifty aluminum folding ladders or else be prepared
to actually use the outboard foot to clamber back on board.Several
years ago I had a most frightening experience concerning the boarding
of my Micro from deep water........not something I would ever want to
repeat in this life!
      The famous Wiley window/vent, working in concert with an outer
screen, will effectively stop spray from coming in or "spitting".If
one were ever in conditions where water begins to spit through this
vent,I fear that you will be very busy indeed with more pressing
matters for water must not only find its way in and around the bow
transom,but must also navigate its way around the mainmast then up
through the vent.
      That's my take on it and only based on my experience in non-
ocean settings.The St.Lawrence may be mighty but waves much over 3
feet are a rare and dangerous occurrence reserved for the reaches
closer to the gulf.








--- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
>
>
> The Navigator plans show 60% of the
> volume of this space filled with
> buoyancy foam anyway.  There would come
> a point that the foam would support the
> weight of any person standing up there.
>
> Those 'steps' through the bow transom also serve
> as a 'Bolgeresque' statement of  sorts. ...chop
> off the pointy bow, and freeflooding bow well...
>
> "A gratitious mockery of Right-Thinking
> Boatmen and other snobs."
>
> Why own a Micro if  you don't want to flaunt it?
>
> I guess I must have the steps.

--- "Peter Lenihan" <ellengaest@b...> wrote:
> I never did put foam in my forward well

Once again, unintended consequences
from deviations in a PCB design :)

--- In bolger@y..., "brucehallman" <brucehallman@y...> wrote:
> --- "Peter Lenihan" <ellengaest@b...> wrote:
> > I never did put foam in my forward well
>
> Once again, unintended consequences
> from deviations in a PCB design :)

I also never learnt how to swim......I am a much better sailor for it
too :-D

--- "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@w...> wrote:
> middle with a small deck over it

Looking again at the Navigator plans,
the small decks each side above the
bow well floation chambers are used as
routing spaces for the Chinese Gaff
rig reefing lines, topping lift lines,
and halyards.