At one time I owned a 16' steel outboard utility boat that performed very much
like it's aluminum cousin, weighed only slightly more than the average aluminum
one, like 20 lbs. more.  Steel is actually quite a bit lighter than uncored
fiberglass and there are lots of decent boats under 20' built of that.

Just because there are few designs available doesn't in any way make the
material unsuitable.

Bill H.

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Wilderness Voice <thewildernessvoice@...> wrote:
>
> \i guess it is all how we define small boats. The fact is that there are
really no good designs for steel boats under twenty feet loa. Now if you want to
have a sandbox that floats and make it out of steel then of course you can
build  a boat that floats. If you want any kind of performace, from sailing,
rowing or motoring it is a  different story. I think the lifeboat example is
perfect, all it has to do is float and people survive, but it is not intended as
a pleasure boat. I think we are doing a disservice to the poster who I assume
wants a boat for work and pleasure and expects it to perform in some way other
than just float. When you get to twenty feet and above loa, then the
practicality of a  steel vessel is realized.
> I love steel boats, \i built them and repaired them for thirty years,  I am
most comfortable working in steel, but there are reasons why we do not see
practical performance with steel with small boats. Better to build in wood
>

Also in the range as a powered coastal cruiser would be Sitka Explorer.  This is
an upsized Topaz @ 38'.  Bolger suggested a small diesel spinning an independent
I/O drive.  Sitka also could be considered part of the Blackliner (?) series for
high efficiency fishing boats.

I've seen the sketch of White Eel and had the impression it was a liveaboard of
limited cruising capability.  Perhaps I'm wrong.

Per the MAIB essay, Tahiti has some sort of emergency rig if the redundant power
scheme intended fails or runs out of fuel.

Figi could do well with the mizzen up as suggested.  But I suspect Tahiti, built
per the plans would be more comfortable with the gimbal mounted seating and bed.

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "djdecker2002" <djdecker2002@...> wrote:
>
> > The PB&F boat along these lines is their design Tahiti.
>
> Or possibly White Eel?
>
> Or, perhaps, Fiji.  With her large fuel tanks and that reliable Deutz
> diesel engine, Fiji could be operated under power exclusively if you wished,
with the masts folded (Or perhaps the mizzen up for added stability). Then you
could sail her when you felt like it, as well............
>
> -Derek
>

I shouldn't tell the Dutch that you can't build small steel
boats,they've been doing it for the last 150 years.

I don't think anyone said you can't build a small steel boat. I know what I said was the building a small boat designed for ply out of steel is bad idea. That's a different thing.
Separate topic: I noted that on the cruise ships that I have been on, most of the lifeboats were of the round-bottom, 5kt type, but there were two with high-speed bottoms and capable of planning speeds. The latter are used to transfer passengers to/from shore when the mother ship is moored offshore. All fiberglass, of course.

> I shouldn't tell the Dutch that you can't build small steel
> boats,they've been doing it for the last 150 years.

I don't think anyone said you can't build a small steel boat. I know what I said
was the building a small boat designed for ply out of steel is bad idea. That's
a different thing.

Separate topic: I noted that on the cruise ships that I have been on, most of
the lifeboats were of the round-bottom, 5kt type, but there were two with
high-speed bottoms and capable of planning speeds. The latter are used to
transfer passengers to/from shore when the mother ship is moored offshore. All
fiberglass, of course.

I shouldn't tell the Dutch that you can't build small steel boats,they've been
doing it for the last 150 years
cheers
Andy Airey

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

I sooooo agree with you.I'm just a little partial to the steel and aluminum
boats that look a little like a real displacement boat.You're right about the
fiberglass units.My only issue with those are the wood used in them.When it
rots, it's a real pain in the *** to repair,and the hull has to be carefully
supported while the floor and stringers are removed.If she's rebuilt
twisted,she'll track like an old hunting dog.

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...> wrote:
>
> There are good lifeboats and bad lifeboats so we can not put all in one
bundle.
> Till the 50ties all the lifeboats were very well made and some with gorgeous
shapes and after the ships were scraped they made even top winner sailboats.
> Then in the early 60ties they started the construction of aluminum lifeboats
that were such as floating bathtubs.
> Then with the event of the fiberglass, lifeboats started again to have more
gracious shapes and being more seaworthy. 
> I see some lifeboats being barely making two or three Knots at full power
while other pushing 9 Knots with the same small Lister Diesel.
> Small lifeboats (about 30 persons) are normally of a good shape, while the
large ones that were installed on the big ocean liners and capable to carry a
large amount of people and that were stacked on double on the davits were
normally shaped like ugly barges. 

A knowledgeable designer can create a successful steel boat of nearly any size. 
Along wiht Col. Hasler, Bolger did a miniature 14' steel tug and the sharpie
Lions Paw.  A couple of the Lions have been started.  I'm not aware of the tug
nor a Col. Hasler getting finished.

I remember a 14' steel semi-vee utility probably made in the 1950's in Northern
Wisconsin.  Looked like any semi-vee aluminum utility you could get at Sears or
Montgomery Ward at the time.

Most life boats I see are under 50HP,are self righting from a complete roll,have
lots of built in buoyancy,and a range of 100 to 500 miles.They aren't planning
hulls.They are displacement hulls with a speed of 6 to 10 knots.The really old
life boats are wood,have little built in buoyancy,can't recover from a roll,and
have oars for power.Oh, and most life boats are around 20 to 25 feet with an 8
foot to 10 foot beam.Now I wanna go look for me a General Brock to cruise the
ICW.=^)

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Peter McCorison <k2spr@...> wrote:
>
> But lifeboats are designed to float until rescue eventuates, not to go
> anywhere. There are a couple of such conversions here in the San Juan
> Islands. They are slow, take lots of power, and drag the whole ocean
> after them.
>
> The shapes are just not designed for travel.
>
>   - Cheers -
> Peter McCorison
> Trying to keep from getting blown away in the San Juan Islands.
>
> ben_2_go wrote:
> > I have seen steel life boats.There's a guy that posts on DW that owned one
and converted it into a trawler type cruiser.It was the General Brock.
> >
> > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/02/articles/browne/index.htm
> >
> > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/03/r/columns/browne/08/index.htm
> >
> > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Wilderness Voice <thewildernessvoice@> wrote:
> >> Lifeboats are designed for one thing, that is to float. I have never seen a
steel lifeboat float, but in the shipyds we would have slapped together boats
for the purpose of getting around ships and working. If this is a pleasure boat
and meant to perform. and be fun you will be better off with lapstrake than
trying to make a small boat out of steel. There are good reasons small boats
arn't made out of steel for anything but work in shipyrds
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Christopher C. Wetherill <wetherillc@>
> >> To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >> Sent: Fri, November 20, 2009 6:23:12 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Lapstrake or Steel Long Micro ?
> >>
> >>
> >> There are also a myriad of steel lifeboats on
> >> ships.
> >>
> >> One serious practical limitation is that with steel or aluminum
> >> construction, one must include sealed void space for flotation.  This
> >> is not available for stowage or other use.  It detracts seriously from
> >> the utility of a small hull.
> >>
> >> V/R
> >> Chris
> >>
> >> Gene Tehansky wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Col Hassler is made in steel. I think thats the name.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Gene T.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 20 Nov, 2009, at 4:39 AM, robertsmme wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>>>> Phil designed a steel small boat to cross the Atlantic in - I think the
> >>>> design is called the OSTAR. I can not find it on the web, but I know it
> >>>> had interesting things like a cycle to generate electricity.
> >>>>
> >>>>>> It had a stepped hull so you could walk the length of the boat without
> >>>> bending.
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Martin
> >>>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!  Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo!
Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Tim,
Thanks for posting, and thanks for posting pics of your punt too.  I've been
seriously considering a small tender for my Long Micro. A few weeks ago I was
scouring BWAOM, pondering the Auray Punt, and you posted pics of your build. 
Nice looking boat.
Bill

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "tim_cleary_sc" <saturntown@...> wrote:
>
> Today I took a small expedition cruise in the modified Aubray punt.  I went to
Lake Murray near Columbia, SC and rowed up the Saluda River branch of the lake,
about a combined 18 miles. There was a lot of motor boat wakes and about 1/2 ft
chop otherwise. I got some idea of the average cruising speed of this boat, that
being about 4 mph.  To me, that speed was very nice for a 9'6" home-built boat. 
It opens up possibilities for more extended expeditions.
> Tim C.
>

But lifeboats are designed to float until rescue eventuates, not to go
anywhere. There are a couple of such conversions here in the San Juan
Islands. They are slow, take lots of power, and drag the whole ocean
after them.

The shapes are just not designed for travel.

   - Cheers -
Peter McCorison
Trying to keep from getting blown away in the San Juan Islands.

ben_2_go wrote:
> I have seen steel life boats.There's a guy that posts on DW that owned one and
converted it into a trawler type cruiser.It was the General Brock.
>
> http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/02/articles/browne/index.htm
>
> http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/03/r/columns/browne/08/index.htm
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Wilderness Voice <thewildernessvoice@...>
wrote:
>> Lifeboats are designed for one thing, that is to float. I have never seen a
steel lifeboat float, but in the shipyds we would have slapped together boats
for the purpose of getting around ships and working. If this is a pleasure boat
and meant to perform. and be fun you will be better off with lapstrake than
trying to make a small boat out of steel. There are good reasons small boats
arn't made out of steel for anything but work in shipyrds
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Christopher C. Wetherill <wetherillc@...>
>> To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Fri, November 20, 2009 6:23:12 AM
>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Lapstrake or Steel Long Micro ?
>>
>>
>> There are also a myriad of steel lifeboats on
>> ships.
>>
>> One serious practical limitation is that with steel or aluminum
>> construction, one must include sealed void space for flotation.  This
>> is not available for stowage or other use.  It detracts seriously from
>> the utility of a small hull.
>>
>> V/R
>> Chris
>>
>> Gene Tehansky wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Col Hassler is made in steel. I think thats the name.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gene T.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 20 Nov, 2009, at 4:39 AM, robertsmme wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>>>> Phil designed a steel small boat to cross the Atlantic in - I think the
>>>> design is called the OSTAR. I can not find it on the web, but I know it
>>>> had interesting things like a cycle to generate electricity.
>>>>
>>>>>> It had a stepped hull so you could walk the length of the boat without
>>>> bending.
>>>>
>>>>>> Martin
>>>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!  Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:  bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo!
Groups Links
>
>
>
>

I have seen steel life boats.There's a guy that posts on DW that owned one and
converted it into a trawler type cruiser.It was the General Brock.

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/02/articles/browne/index.htm

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/03/r/columns/browne/08/index.htm

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Wilderness Voice <thewildernessvoice@...> wrote:
>
> Lifeboats are designed for one thing, that is to float. I have never seen a
steel lifeboat float, but in the shipyds we would have slapped together boats
for the purpose of getting around ships and working. If this is a pleasure boat
and meant to perform. and be fun you will be better off with lapstrake than
trying to make a small boat out of steel. There are good reasons small boats
arn't made out of steel for anything but work in shipyrds
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Christopher C. Wetherill <wetherillc@...>
> To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, November 20, 2009 6:23:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Lapstrake or Steel Long Micro ?
>
>
> There are also a myriad of steel lifeboats on
> ships.
>
> One serious practical limitation is that with steel or aluminum
> construction, one must include sealed void space for flotation.  This
> is not available for stowage or other use.  It detracts seriously from
> the utility of a small hull.
>
> V/R
> Chris
>
> Gene Tehansky wrote:
> >
> >
> >Col Hassler is made in steel. I think thats the name.
> >
> >
> >
> >Gene T.
> >
> >
> >On 20 Nov, 2009, at 4:39 AM, robertsmme wrote:
> >
> >Hi,
> >>>>Phil designed a steel small boat to cross the Atlantic in - I think the
> >>design is called the OSTAR. I can not find it on the web, but I know it
> >>had interesting things like a cycle to generate electricity.
> >>
> >>>>It had a stepped hull so you could walk the length of the boat without
> >>bending.
> >>
> >>>>Martin
> >>
> >>
>

Today I took a small expedition cruise in the modified Aubray punt.  I went to
Lake Murray near Columbia, SC and rowed up the Saluda River branch of the lake,
about a combined 18 miles. There was a lot of motor boat wakes and about 1/2 ft
chop otherwise. I got some idea of the average cruising speed of this boat, that
being about 4 mph.  To me, that speed was very nice for a 9'6" home-built boat. 
It opens up possibilities for more extended expeditions.
Tim C.

Col Hassler is made in steel. I think thats the name.

Gene T.

On 20 Nov, 2009, at 4:39 AM, robertsmme wrote:

Hi,
Phil designed a steel small boat to cross the Atlantic in - I think the design is called the OSTAR. I can not find it on the web, but I know it had interesting things like a cycle to generate electricity.

It had a stepped hull so you could walk the length of the boat without bending.

Martin

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
>
> Walter wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
> > Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Chebaco is a well designed boat for plywood and the fact that it cannot
> > > be formed into compound curves. If you want to build from lapstrake
> > > there are many designes with much finer shapes that can be built that
> > > way. Bolger has some of those designs though many are in his older
> > work.
> > > His later work is no better than the older designs except that the new
> > > stuff is designed for ease of construction in plywood. That ease of
> > > construction is gone when you build from lap planking or strip planking
> > > so why not build the finer hull. Its no harder if you are strip
> > > building. If you are going to strip plank build one of the really
> > > beautiful and sea kindly designs that are available. The plywood
> > designs
> > > for easy construction and as such are compromises in shape. Build the
> > > perfect shape instead. Doug
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Chebacco was originally designed for cold molded construction- see
> > "Boats with an Open Mind ", p.223. Then plywood, then lapstrake. Boats
> > built using all three construction methods have been sailed together,
> > with no real difference noted between them . So the "penalty" of
> > limited shape for sheet plywood construction is non-existent, at least
> > for this design. Cold molded construction is an excellent way to use
> > wood of less than prime marine quality,as it is encapsulated in epoxy.
> > If you can get the epoxy in Peru, and get the available wood sawed
> > into veneers, this might be a good way to go.
> >
> >
> Walter, I have to disagree. Plywood can make a really fine boat but
> unless you get into things like tortured shapes, they are not perfect. A
> boat built of molded plywood if designed to take advantage of the
> material can be a much finer shaped boat. Speed is not the only measure
> of a fine boat there is, sea kindliness ease of handling.
> Bolger designed an aluminum boat for me and he lamented the fact that we
> could bend only very limited compound curves into the hull. In his words
> she would be a faster boat if we could develop more roundness in her
> bottom astern. If we could round her bottom more in her bows she would
> have a finer entry. That is what P.Bolger thought. Maybe he changed his
> mind later???
> If the cold molded hull was made to the best that can be done with the
> material she would be a far better boat than a plywood one. IF not, it
> is only because full advantage of the material was not taken. A good
> cold molded boat is a different boat than a plywood one in shape, even
> if by the same name. After saying this I really like the look and feel
> of a hard chine boat. The softly rounded hull to my eye lacks the
> character of a gently curving chine and sheer to match of a planked hull
> and is often copied in most plywood hulls.
> In my opinion it's not the material that matters but the shape than can
> be generated in it. Doug
>

Doug - I believe you are right, plywood does limit the shapes possible in boats,
especially when used in large sheets. But with the Chebacco, one of the boats
under discussion, performance is virtually identical between all 3 construction
methods. This fact was told to me by Phil, who seemed a little surprised by it.
Different hull shapes will probably be affected more or less when built using
different construction methods. All I'm saying is that in this boat, Chebacco,
no real differences in performance were noted by Phil himself.
Walter

Strip planking has been mentioned briefly. For your purposes this means thicker
strips that are edge nailed rather than the 1/4 inch strips used for canoes.
Steve Redmond has a good description here:

http://www.sredmond.com/strip_plank.htm

No plywood needed. You would likely require access to epoxy and fiberglass. The
rest could be lumber. Search strip plank boats.
Can anyone suggest suitable designs using this planking method?

Joe T

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "stephenwarrick@..." <s.warrick@...> wrote:
>
> Bill & Everyone else, This is all great stuff. I really do have a much
> better idea now of how I am going to do this. The workshop has full
> width doors at one end, which can all be lifted off and big framed
> ventilation flaps at the far end, which can also be removed. It is an
> agricultural poly-tunnel that I have built as a workshop. I have 20ft
> from end to end, so enough space I think. I will let you all know
> tomorrow how I'm going to proceed. It's dark here now and blowing a
> hooly, no more measuring and clearing out tonight, I think we're in for
> some rough weather.
> Once again thanks for all your input everyone. I have only been on this
> forum for a couple of days and you have all made me most welcome.
> I'll start a new thread with the shop preparation etc. as that will be a
> new topic.Stephen
>

Hi,
   Phil designed a steel small boat to cross the Atlantic in - I think the design
is called the OSTAR.  I can not find it on the web, but I know it had
interesting things like a cycle to generate electricity.

   It had a stepped hull so you could walk the length of the boat without
bending.

Martin

I would comment that a strechted japanese beach cruiser comes to mind here.

Caloosarat


> I live in Iquitos, Peru a few miles from the Amazon River and I´m interested
in building a Long Micro.
>
> The plywood available here is not suitable for boat construction. It separate
easily and it is expensive.
>
> That leaves lapstrake or a steel hull. Wood and steel are both cheap.
>
> What would the increased weight do to the performance of a Micro or Long
Micro?
>
> Does anyone know of any Micros or Long Micros that have been built with a
lapstrake or steel hull?
>
> Thanks
>
> tom
>

Walter wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
> >
> > Chebaco is a well designed boat for plywood and the fact that it cannot
> > be formed into compound curves. If you want to build from lapstrake
> > there are many designes with much finer shapes that can be built that
> > way. Bolger has some of those designs though many are in his older
> work.
> > His later work is no better than the older designs except that the new
> > stuff is designed for ease of construction in plywood. That ease of
> > construction is gone when you build from lap planking or strip planking
> > so why not build the finer hull. Its no harder if you are strip
> > building. If you are going to strip plank build one of the really
> > beautiful and sea kindly designs that are available. The plywood
> designs
> > for easy construction and as such are compromises in shape. Build the
> > perfect shape instead. Doug
> >
> >
>
> Chebacco was originally designed for cold molded construction- see
> "Boats with an Open Mind ", p.223. Then plywood, then lapstrake. Boats
> built using all three construction methods have been sailed together,
> with no real difference noted between them . So the "penalty" of
> limited shape for sheet plywood construction is non-existent, at least
> for this design. Cold molded construction is an excellent way to use
> wood of less than prime marine quality,as it is encapsulated in epoxy.
> If you can get the epoxy in Peru, and get the available wood sawed
> into veneers, this might be a good way to go.
>
>
Walter, I have to disagree. Plywood can make a really fine boat but
unless you get into things like tortured shapes, they are not perfect. A
boat built of molded plywood if designed to take advantage of the
material can be a much finer shaped boat. Speed is not the only measure
of a fine boat there is, sea kindliness ease of handling.
Bolger designed an aluminum boat for me and he lamented the fact that we
could bend only very limited compound curves into the hull. In his words
she would be a faster boat if we could develop more roundness in her
bottom astern. If we could round her bottom more in her bows she would
have a finer entry. That is what P.Bolger thought. Maybe he changed his
mind later???
If the cold molded hull was made to the best that can be done with the
material she would be a far better boat than a plywood one. IF not, it
is only because full advantage of the material was not taken. A good
cold molded boat is a different boat than a plywood one in shape, even
if by the same name. After saying this I really like the look and feel
of a hard chine boat. The softly rounded hull to my eye lacks the
character of a gently curving chine and sheer to match of a planked hull
and is often copied in most plywood hulls.
In my opinion it's not the material that matters but the shape than can
be generated in it. Doug

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Douglas Pollard <dougpol1@...> wrote:
>
> Chebaco is a well designed boat for plywood and the fact that it cannot
> be formed into compound curves. If you want to build from lapstrake
> there are many designes with much finer shapes that can be built that
> way. Bolger has some of those designs though many are in his older work.
> His later work is no better than the older designs except that the new
> stuff is designed for ease of construction in plywood. That ease of
> construction is gone when you build from lap planking or strip planking
> so why not build the finer hull. Its no harder if you are strip
> building. If you are going to strip plank build one of the really
> beautiful and sea kindly designs that are available. The plywood designs
> for easy construction and as such are compromises in shape. Build the
> perfect shape instead. Doug
>
>

Chebacco was originally designed for cold molded  construction- see "Boats with
an Open Mind ", p.223. Then plywood, then lapstrake. Boats built using all three
construction methods have been sailed together, with no real difference noted
between them . So the "penalty" of limited shape for sheet plywood construction
is non-existent, at least for this design. Cold molded construction is an
excellent way to use wood of less than prime marine quality,as it is
encapsulated in epoxy. If you can get the epoxy in Peru, and get the available
wood sawed into veneers, this might be a good way to go.

Hi,  didn't Phil design a small boat for the OSTAR that was made of
steel.  I seemed to remember it had a stepped hull like the Micro Trawler.

Martin

Chebaco is a well designed boat for plywood and the fact that it cannot
be formed into compound curves. If you want to build from lapstrake
there are many designes with much finer shapes that can be built that
way. Bolger has some of those designs though many are in his older work.
His later work is no better than the older designs except that the new
stuff is designed for ease of construction in plywood. That ease of
construction is gone when you build from lap planking or strip planking
so why not build the finer hull. Its no harder if you are strip
building. If you are going to strip plank build one of the really
beautiful and sea kindly designs that are available. The plywood designs
for easy construction and as such are compromises in shape. Build the
perfect shape instead. Doug

Peter wrote:
>
> > That leaves lapstrake or a steel hull.
> > Wood and steel are both cheap.
>
> I would discourage you from thinking about a steel hull. By the time
> it had enough internal bracing that it stay in shape, it would be far
> too heavy. Boats less than about 50 feet can be built from steel, but
> only if the heavy construction is planned from the beginning of the
> design.
>
> On the other hand, lapstrake is a very good alternative, but I think
> it would work better for a boat with a round shape rather than the
> boxy shape of Long Micro. You would have to ask someone more
> experienced that me if you do build LM in lapstrake.
>
> Be aware that there are two categories of lapstrake. The traditional
> one uses some kind of nail or rivet to fasten the laps. The modern one
> uses epoxy glue. Since the epoxy makes a stiffer boat, the internal
> framing is reduced a little, so if the designer calls for glued laps,
> it's best to stick to it. If the designer calls for rivets or clench
> nails, you can glue if you want to.
>
> You might look into strip construction, too.
>
> Mr. Bolger designed the Chebacco and the 26' big Chebacco for
> lapstrake construction. The bigger boat has accommodations similar to
> Long Micro. They both use a cat-yawl rig. These boats both use plywood
> for frames, seats, etc. I don't know if they would work for you or not.
>
> In fact, all most all modern designs use some plywood. I'm sure there
> are ways for you to work around that, but it may be frustrating.
>
> Peter
>
>

djdecker2002 wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>, Bruce
> Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
> >
> > It is an interesting question "how big". Trading off space for
> > 'things' versus how big the crew can handle. Plus the presumption, of
> > whether it must be a sailboat. I too love to sail, but a funny thing,
> > I love sailing a dinghy too, so one could have a powerboat with a
> > dingy on deck to have a bigger boat which can be single handed, and
> > still enjoy sailing.
> >
> > If long distance cruising is on the 'must have list', also consider
> > the school of though of Robert Beebe, or George Buehler 'Diesel Duck',
> > with highly reliable power cruisers.
> >
> > Both these books are 'must reads'.
> >
> > http://www.amazon.com/Voyaging-Under-Power-Robert-Beebe/
> <http://www.amazon.com/Voyaging-Under-Power-Robert-Beebe/>
> > http://www.amazon.com/Buehlers-Backyard-Boatbuilding-George-Buehler/
> <http://www.amazon.com/Buehlers-Backyard-Boatbuilding-George-Buehler/>
> >
> > The PB&F boat along these lines is their design Tahiti.
>
> Or possibly White Eel?
>
> Or, perhaps, Fiji. With her large fuel tanks and that reliable Deutz
> diesel engine, Fiji could be operated under power exclusively if you
> wished, with the masts folded (Or perhaps the mizzen up for added
> stability). Then you could sail her when you felt like it, as well.
>
> What I would really like to see in this discussion, though, is the
> cartoon of the AS34, midway in size between the AS29 and the various
> 39 foot options (Loose Moose, Anemone, Fiji). Is the AS34 design
> currently complete? Would it be possible to post the cartoon?
>
> -Derek
>
>

Derek, Yes if an a AS 33 to AS 36 designe was around a few years ago I
would be interest now. . If I could buy a used one a couple years old
for $25,000 I would be
wanting to take a look. I am looking to buy a boat, not build one,
because building costs more than they are worth at this time. I like a
lot of Bolgers designs and have built a couple but there others who
design nice boats and there are good factory built boats out there to go
cruising in and live aboard. This does not take anything away from Mr.
Bolgers designs it's just that the timing is wrong for me.
Doug

--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
>
> It is an interesting question "how big".  Trading off space for
> 'things' versus how big the crew can handle.  Plus the presumption, of
> whether it must be a sailboat.  I too love to sail, but a funny thing,
> I love sailing a dinghy too, so one could have a powerboat with a
> dingy on deck to have a bigger boat which can be single handed, and
> still enjoy sailing.
>
> If long distance cruising is on the 'must have list', also consider
> the school of though of Robert Beebe, or George Buehler 'Diesel Duck',
> with highly reliable power cruisers.
>
> Both these books are 'must reads'.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Voyaging-Under-Power-Robert-Beebe/
> http://www.amazon.com/Buehlers-Backyard-Boatbuilding-George-Buehler/
>
> The PB&F boat along these lines is their design Tahiti.

Or possibly White Eel?

Or, perhaps, Fiji.  With her large fuel tanks and that reliable Deutz
diesel engine, Fiji could be operated under power exclusively if you wished,
with the masts folded (Or perhaps the mizzen up for added stability). Then you
could sail her when you felt like it, as well.

What I would really like to see in this discussion, though, is the cartoon of
the AS34, midway in size between the AS29 and the various
39 foot options (Loose Moose, Anemone, Fiji). Is the AS34 design currently
complete? Would it be possible to post the cartoon?

-Derek

> That leaves lapstrake or a steel hull.
> Wood and steel are both cheap.

I would discourage you from thinking about a steel hull. By the time it had
enough internal bracing that it stay in shape, it would be far too heavy. Boats
less than about 50 feet can be built from steel, but only if the heavy
construction is planned from the beginning of the design.

On the other hand, lapstrake is a very good alternative, but I think it would
work better for a boat with a round shape rather than the boxy shape of Long
Micro. You would have to ask someone more experienced that me if you do build LM
in lapstrake.

Be aware that there are two categories of lapstrake. The traditional one uses
some kind of nail or rivet to fasten the laps. The modern one uses epoxy glue.
Since the epoxy makes a stiffer boat, the internal framing is reduced a little,
so if the designer calls for glued laps, it's best to stick to it. If the
designer calls for rivets or clench nails, you can glue if you want to.

You might look into strip construction, too.

Mr. Bolger designed the Chebacco and the 26' big Chebacco for lapstrake
construction. The bigger boat has accommodations similar to Long Micro. They
both use a cat-yawl rig. These boats both use plywood for frames, seats, etc. I
don't know if they would work for you or not.

In fact, all most all modern designs use some plywood. I'm sure there are ways
for you to work around that, but it may be frustrating.

Peter