Luke 2:12  And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in
swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.

Since today is Christmas, I thought I will share a Christmas message with you.
Have you ever wonder what is so special about a Babe wrapped in "Swaddling
Clothing?" You might say laying in a manger was something special as well, but
this was a common occurrence in that age. The manger was only a feeding trough
and in those days some babies was laid in the manger when they were first born.

The swaddling clothing was the sign. This was unusual because babies at that
time would not be in a swaddling clothing. Yes I know we do wrap babies in
swaddling clothing to day but our swaddling clothing was not their swaddling
clothing. A few years ago I went to this church and the regular Sunday School
teacher was not there and the Pastor asked me to teach the adult Sunday School.
The Pastor asked what was the swaddling clothing of which I did not have an
answer at the time but told him I will find out and let him know.

Here is what I found out: In those days they did not have a hearse to come and
get you. Travelers will wear a burial cloth around their waste which was in
strips. If they died on a trip, they would be buried right there or close to the
nearest town, because their body will decompose fast in the heat of the day and
could not be transported back home if the journey was far. This burial cloth was
called swaddling clothing or swaddling strips.

Jesus Christ was wrapped in either Joseph or Mary's burial cloth. When I find
this information I thought how it fits Christ. Christ came into this world for
one thing. To die for our sins. What he was wrapped in testify to why he came
into this world. Later when the wise men brought him gifts, those gifts was also
used in the Burial Process. As I said Christ came into this word to died.

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but
that the world through him might be saved.

Christ came into this world to die for our sins. He was God's gift to man kind.
God sent him into the world to die for our sins and he did so because he love
man kind and wanted them all to have a chance at salvation. The Bible said
whosoever will, let him come. The gift of Grace is free, but you got to accept
it. I know there are people believing the giving of gifts is paganism but the
whole thought behind the gift giving is God's gift to us. He gave us what we
needed the most.

Thank God for his gift to us!

As you open gifts today think of God's gift to us. Thank God for his gift
because without it we all will still be lost. Keep God in the midst of your
celebration today.

does anyone here believes in near death experience?

Yes, I do believe in NDE's. I did experience it myself.

The Biblical basis, I believe, for NDE's is Jn 11:25-26: Jesus said to her, "I
am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though
he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe
this?"

Resurrection is about the immediate "after-physical-death rising of the human
spirit/conscioussness" in glorious (non-biological body as we know it) but a
body like that of Jesus' body, hence with ability  to see Jesus as Jesus is now.

The Bible never defined/stated resurrection as "resurrection of the body," WHICH
IS CREEDAL, but "RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD." Spiritual life in man DIED with
Adam's sin and replaced with that "covetous, envious human spirit" which
dominated the human soul. Jesus came, died, and (was) resurrected to allow that
"dead spiritual life in man" be "born again" through faith in Him. THIS IS THE
RESURRECTION FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS. For non-believers in Jesus, it may
be another story.

Isa
http://www.layadvocacyforchristianunity.org




--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "bootsdpm" <bootsdpm@...> wrote:
>
> does anyone here believes in near death experience?
>

There has been a lot of research into NDE's by both skeptic and believers.  The
skeptics tend to offer explanations that seem to ignore some important points,
and in fact have argued that since a proposed experiment has not produced any
evidence supporting NDE's that they are false.  This approach is as valid as my
claiming that since no team has won this year's Super Bowl that no team is good
enough.  Results cannot be obtained from an experiment prior to its being
undertaken.

On a more practical side, there is an understanding of Quantum Mechanics that
not only allows for NDE's but almost requires them.  Unfortunately this
understanding also implies that existent theologies are almost guaranteed to be
in error.

On a personal point, I accept the reality of NDE's and the understanding of QM
that almost requires them.

Bill

--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "bootsdpm" <bootsdpm@...> wrote:
>
> does anyone here believes in near death experience?
>

If death is defined as the separation of conscious-life/spirit from the
biological body, then NDE is "aborted" true death.

So, the one who experienced it, (as one whose conscious-life/spirit completely
left the biological body for a period of time that allows medical professionals
to declare it legally dead), DID DIE.

But then, this is simply a foretaste of Resurrection - the immediate
"after-physical-death rising of the human spirit/conscioussness" in glorious
(non-biological body as we know it) but a body like that of Jesus' body, hence
with ability to see Jesus as Jesus is now.

Again, the Bible never defined/stated resurrection as "resurrection of the
body," WHICH IS CREEDAL, but "RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD." Spiritual life in man
DIED with Adam's sin and replaced with that "covetous, envious human spirit"
(James 4:5-6) which dominated the human soul. Jesus came, died, and (was)
resurrected to allow that "dead spiritual life in man" to be "born again"
through faith in Him. THIS IS THE RESURRECTION FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS.
For non-believers in Jesus, it may be another story.

Jas 4:5-6: Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he
caused to live in us envies intensely?  6 But he gives us more grace. That is
why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble." NIV

Isa



--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...>
wrote:
>
> I think the key is in the word "near". No one dies.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> There has been a lot of research into NDE's by both skeptic and believers. 
The
> skeptics tend to offer explanations that seem to ignore some important points,
> and in fact have argued that since a proposed experiment has not produced any
> evidence supporting NDE's that they are false.  This approach is as valid as
my
> claiming that since no team has won this year's Super Bowl that no team is
good
> enough.  Results cannot be obtained from an experiment prior to its being
> undertaken.
>
> On a more practical side, there is an understanding of Quantum Mechanics that
> not only allows for NDE's but almost requires them.  Unfortunately this
> understanding also implies that existent theologies are almost guaranteed to
be
> in error.
>
> On a personal point, I accept the reality of NDE's and the understanding of QM
> that almost requires them.
>
> Bill
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "bootsdpm" <bootsdpm@> wrote:
> >
> > does anyone here believes in near death experience?
> >
>

Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:

"So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would not apply.
Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable from
scripture"

was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be
dead/buried in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights"
that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three
days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.

But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just before the
sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset on Saturday
and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural definition of
death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN TRULY DEAD
WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!

Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish definition of
death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was truly dead when he
resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection? (See the Lazarus death
and resuscitation account).

If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only acceptable
Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus before sunset on
Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday as
claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!

BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he said this
just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father,
into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his
last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!

Isa



--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@...>
wr
>
> Aah but we must remember the expression "near death experience" is not a
> theological one. So your definition would not apply. Plus your definition is
> questionable from scripture.
>
>
>
>
> If death is defined as the separation of conscious-life/spirit from the
> biological body, then NDE is "aborted" true death.
>
>
> So, the one who experienced it, (as one whose conscious-life/spirit completely
> left the biological body for a period of time that allows medical
professionals
> to declare it legally dead), DID DIE.
>
> But then, this is simply a foretaste of Resurrection - the immediate
> "after-physical-death rising of the human spirit/conscioussness" in glorious
> (non-biological body as we know it) but a body like that of Jesus' body, hence
> with ability to see Jesus as Jesus is now.
>
> Again, the Bible never defined/stated resurrection as "resurrection of the
> body," WHICH IS CREEDAL, but "RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD." Spiritual life in
man
> DIED with Adam's sin and replaced with that "covetous, envious human spirit"
> (James 4:5-6) which dominated the human soul. Jesus came, died, and (was)
> resurrected to allow that "dead spiritual life in man" to be "born again"
> through faith in Him. THIS IS THE RESURRECTION FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS.
> For non-believers in Jesus, it may be another story.
>
> Jas 4:5-6: Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he
> caused to live in us envies intensely?  6 But he gives us more grace. That is
> why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud
> but gives grace to the humble." NIV
>
> Isa
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Paul Leonard <anotherpaul2001@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I think the key is in the word "near". No one dies.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > There has been a lot of research into NDE's by both skeptic and believers. 
The
> >
> > skeptics tend to offer explanations that seem to ignore some important
points,
>
> > and in fact have argued that since a proposed experiment has not produced
any
> > evidence supporting NDE's that they are false.  This approach is as valid as
my
> >
> > claiming that since no team has won this year's Super Bowl that no team is
good
> >
> > enough.  Results cannot be obtained from an experiment prior to its being
> > undertaken.
> >
> > On a more practical side, there is an understanding of Quantum Mechanics
that
> > not only allows for NDE's but almost requires them.  Unfortunately this
> > understanding also implies that existent theologies are almost guaranteed to
be
> >
> > in error.
> >
> > On a personal point, I accept the reality of NDE's and the understanding of
QM
>
> > that almost requires them.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "bootsdpm" <bootsdpm@> wrote:
> > >
> > > does anyone here believes in near death experience?
> > >
> >
>

Isa,

For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to be
lifeless for three days.  However, part of a day counted as the whole day, thus
being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a second day
commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was dead
the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day.  To argue that
perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides
a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries
did.

Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before Jesus'
day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE experiences.

As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have been
reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern
standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the
British Medical Society.

Bill

--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@...> wrote:
>
> Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
>
> "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would not apply.
Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable from
scripture"
>
> was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be
dead/buried in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights"
that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three
days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
>
> But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just before the
sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset on Saturday
and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural definition of
death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN TRULY DEAD
WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
>
> Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish definition of
death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was truly dead when he
resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection? (See the Lazarus death
and resuscitation account).
>
> If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only acceptable
Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus before sunset on
Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday as
claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
>
> BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he said this
just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father,
into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his
last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
>
> Isa

Thanks, Bill:

That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe that NDE
is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in a
glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.

Isa

--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@...>
wrote:
>
> Isa,
>
> For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to be
lifeless for three days.  However, part of a day counted as the whole day, thus
being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a second day
commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was dead
the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day.  To argue that
perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides
a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries
did.
>
> Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before Jesus'
day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE experiences.
>
> As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have been
reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern
standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the
British Medical Society.
>
> Bill
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> >
> > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
> >
> > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would not
apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable from
scripture"
> >
> > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be
dead/buried in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights"
that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three
days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
> >
> > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just before the
sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset on Saturday
and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural definition of
death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN TRULY DEAD
WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
> >
> > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish definition
of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was truly dead when
he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection? (See the Lazarus
death and resuscitation account).
> >
> > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only acceptable
Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus before sunset on
Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday as
claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
> >
> > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he said
this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice,
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed
his last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
> >
> > Isa
>

Bill:

This is an addendum to my earlier comment.

I accept that for the Jews of Jesus'day, one had to be lifeless for at least
'three days' to be declared 'truly dead'. Thus, Jesus in Mt 12:40-41 said he
will be in the grave 'three days and three nights'. NOTE that Jesus did NOT just
say 'three days" but specifically 'three days and three nights.' This could only
mean 3 sets of 12-hours of daylight and 3 sets of 12-hours of darkness. Proof
for this meaning was the case of Lazarus: "Jn 11:17: On his arrival, Jesus found
that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days.(NIV)"
Lazarus was already in the tomb for FOUR DAYS, not three days!

Some Bible authorities believe that the COMING Sabbath mentioned in the
crucifxion account was not a Saturday Sabbath but a special Sabbath. This is
stated in Jn 19:31: "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to
be a special Sabbath." NIV.

Will you comment on this.

Isa




--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Bill:
>
> That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe that
NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in a
glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
>
> Isa
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@> wrote:
> >
> > Isa,
> >
> > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to be
lifeless for three days.  However, part of a day counted as the whole day, thus
being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a second day
commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was dead
the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day.  To argue that
perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides
a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries
did.
> >
> > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before
Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE
experiences.
> >
> > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have been
reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern
standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the
British Medical Society.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
> > >
> > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would not
apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable from
scripture"
> > >
> > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be
dead/buried in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights"
that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three
days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
> > >
> > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just before
the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset on
Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural
definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE
BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
> > >
> > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish definition
of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was truly dead when
he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection? (See the Lazarus
death and resuscitation account).
> > >
> > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only acceptable
Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus before sunset on
Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday as
claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
> > >
> > > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he said
this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice,
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed
his last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
> > >
> > > Isa
> >
>

Hi, Tom M.

I think that Jesus' action in the NT indicating that Jewish authority or
leadership did not believe that someone was "truly dead" unless that someone had
been apparently dead whether outside or inside the tomb for least three days, as
the NT appears to indicate particularly for one whose body had not been bled dry
of blood, head cut off, or internal organs not pulled out of the body, may have
been due to the fact that "apparently dead" persons, as we do observe in our
days, DO COME TO LIFE (nde)SOMETIMES. There is also the fear of burying someone
ALIVE .

Isa


--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, tcmadd2@... wrote:
>
>
> Folks,
>
> Sometimes these discussions begin to enter the realm of the absurd. These
pronouncements that in Jesus' time the Jews did not believe someone was really
dead until they had been apparently dead for three, (or four), days that had to
be days of so many hours seem to me to enter into that realm.
>
> If this were really the case it would mean that the Jews regularly buried
people who they did not know whether they were dead or not!  It is much more
likely that they just said something like, "He has stopped breathing and we
cannot detect any heartbeat, and he is getting cold and stiff...he's dead."
>
> When someone makes the amazing claim that someone who was "clinically dead"
came back and reported a NDE, it would do wonders for the credibility of such a
claim  if the person using this info to bolster their position would reference
the journal or article where this was reported.  Otherwise, it just looks like
the sort of hearsay that travels around Christian circles. You know, claims like
the Russians drilled a hole so deep that the could hear screams coming up from
hell. Or, that NASA computer experts have discovered Joshua's lost day.
>
> Tom M.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Isa <isalcordo@...>
> To: biblicalapologetics <biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 2:53 pm
> Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: nde
>
>
>
>
> Bill:
>
> This is an addendum to my earlier comment.
>
> I accept that for the Jews of Jesus'day, one had to be lifeless for at least
'three days' to be declared 'truly dead'. Thus, Jesus in Mt 12:40-41 said he
will be in the grave 'three days and three nights'. NOTE that Jesus did NOT just
say 'three days" but specifically 'three days and three nights.' This could only
mean 3 sets of 12-hours of daylight and 3 sets of 12-hours of darkness. Proof
for this meaning was the case of Lazarus: "Jn 11:17: On his arrival, Jesus found
that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days.(NIV)"
> Lazarus was already in the tomb for FOUR DAYS, not three days!
>
> Some Bible authorities believe that the COMING Sabbath mentioned in the
crucifxion account was not a Saturday Sabbath but a special Sabbath. This is
stated in Jn 19:31: "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to
be a special Sabbath." NIV.
>
> Will you comment on this.
>
> Isa
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks, Bill:
> >
> > That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe that
NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in a
glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
> >
> > Isa
> >
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Isa,
> > >
> > > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to
be lifeless for three days. However, part of a day counted as the whole day,
thus being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a second day
commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was dead
the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day. To argue that
perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides
a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries
did.
> > >
> > > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before
Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE
experiences.
> > >
> > > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have
been reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern
standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the
British Medical Society.
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
> > > >
> > > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would not
apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable from
scripture"
> > > >
> > > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be
dead/buried in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights"
that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three
days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
> > > >
> > > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just before
the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset on
Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural
definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE
BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
> > > >
> > > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish
definition of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was
truly dead when he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection?
(See the Lazarus death and resuscitation account).
> > > >
> > > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only acceptable
Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus before sunset on
Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday as
claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
> > > >
> > > > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he
said this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice,
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed
his last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
> > > >
> > > > Isa
> > >
> >
>

Hi, Tom M.

I think that Jesus' action in the NT indicating that Jewish authority or
leadership did not believe that someone was "truly dead" unless that someone had
been apparently dead whether outside or inside the tomb for at least three days,
as the NT appears to indicate particularly for one whose body had not been bled
dry of blood, head cut off, or internal organs not pulled out of the body, may
have been due to the fact that "apparently dead" persons, as we do observe in
our days, DO COME TO LIFE (nde)SOMETIMES. There is also the fear of burying
someone ALIVE .

Isa



--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Tom M.
>
> I think that Jesus' action in the NT indicating that Jewish authority or
leadership did not believe that someone was "truly dead" unless that someone had
been apparently dead whether outside or inside the tomb for least three days, as
the NT appears to indicate particularly for one whose body had not been bled dry
of blood, head cut off, or internal organs not pulled out of the body, may have
been due to the fact that "apparently dead" persons, as we do observe in our
days, DO COME TO LIFE (nde)SOMETIMES. There is also the fear of burying someone
ALIVE .
>
> Isa
>
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, tcmadd2@ wrote:
> >
> >
> > Folks,
> >
> > Sometimes these discussions begin to enter the realm of the absurd. These
pronouncements that in Jesus' time the Jews did not believe someone was really
dead until they had been apparently dead for three, (or four), days that had to
be days of so many hours seem to me to enter into that realm.
> >
> > If this were really the case it would mean that the Jews regularly buried
people who they did not know whether they were dead or not!  It is much more
likely that they just said something like, "He has stopped breathing and we
cannot detect any heartbeat, and he is getting cold and stiff...he's dead."
> >
> > When someone makes the amazing claim that someone who was "clinically dead"
came back and reported a NDE, it would do wonders for the credibility of such a
claim  if the person using this info to bolster their position would reference
the journal or article where this was reported.  Otherwise, it just looks like
the sort of hearsay that travels around Christian circles. You know, claims like
the Russians drilled a hole so deep that the could hear screams coming up from
hell. Or, that NASA computer experts have discovered Joshua's lost day.
> >
> > Tom M.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Isa <isalcordo@>
> > To: biblicalapologetics <biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 2:53 pm
> > Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: nde
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill:
> >
> > This is an addendum to my earlier comment.
> >
> > I accept that for the Jews of Jesus'day, one had to be lifeless for at least
'three days' to be declared 'truly dead'. Thus, Jesus in Mt 12:40-41 said he
will be in the grave 'three days and three nights'. NOTE that Jesus did NOT just
say 'three days" but specifically 'three days and three nights.' This could only
mean 3 sets of 12-hours of daylight and 3 sets of 12-hours of darkness. Proof
for this meaning was the case of Lazarus: "Jn 11:17: On his arrival, Jesus found
that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days.(NIV)"
> > Lazarus was already in the tomb for FOUR DAYS, not three days!
> >
> > Some Bible authorities believe that the COMING Sabbath mentioned in the
crucifxion account was not a Saturday Sabbath but a special Sabbath. This is
stated in Jn 19:31: "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to
be a special Sabbath." NIV.
> >
> > Will you comment on this.
> >
> > Isa
> >
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks, Bill:
> > >
> > > That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe
that NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in
a glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
> > >
> > > Isa
> > >
> > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Isa,
> > > >
> > > > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to
be lifeless for three days. However, part of a day counted as the whole day,
thus being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a second day
commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was dead
the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day. To argue that
perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides
a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries
did.
> > > >
> > > > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before
Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE
experiences.
> > > >
> > > > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have
been reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern
standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the
British Medical Society.
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
> > > > >
> > > > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would
not apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable
from scripture"
> > > > >
> > > > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be
dead/buried in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights"
that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three
days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
> > > > >
> > > > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just
before the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset
on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural
definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE
BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
> > > > >
> > > > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish
definition of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was
truly dead when he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection?
(See the Lazarus death and resuscitation account).
> > > > >
> > > > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only
acceptable Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus
before sunset on Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and
sunrise on Sunday as claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
> > > > >
> > > > > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he
said this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice,
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed
his last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
> > > > >
> > > > > Isa
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Isa,

The passage does  not dictate what is meant by a day or a night, thus your
dictating that it must be 12 hour periods is adding to scripture.  Again, the
thought of that time was that any part of a day or a night counted as an entire
day or night.

A second point is that this might well have been a true saying of Jesus that was
preserved because it is what he said.  However, this does not mean that he was
accurate.  You might note that he also is reported to have predicted that not a
stone of the temple would be left standing on another.  If this was an accurate
prediction, then how do we still have the "wailing wall" standing in Jerusalem.

I would again remind you that even though you have not studied sufficiently or
perhaps not realized what you have read, there is ample evidence that the
experience you had (an NDE) was not indicative of the promised future life of
the believers, but rather an experience of the realm of the blessed which has
been described since ancient times, in the Old Testament, ancient Greek
mythology and philosophy (Plato and Socrates knew of it), Ugaritc writings and
ancient Egyptian records all in the western world, as well as recorded in
ancient Chinese records and the Upanishads.  I would likewise suggest ancient
Native Americans, but those records are questionable as the interpretations may
be questioned as well as dating as they were recorded on perishable materials
and regularly updated.

Bill

--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@...> wrote:
>
> Bill:
>
> This is an addendum to my earlier comment.
>
> I accept that for the Jews of Jesus'day, one had to be lifeless for at least
'three days' to be declared 'truly dead'. Thus, Jesus in Mt 12:40-41 said he
will be in the grave 'three days and three nights'. NOTE that Jesus did NOT just
say 'three days" but specifically 'three days and three nights.' This could only
mean 3 sets of 12-hours of daylight and 3 sets of 12-hours of darkness. Proof
for this meaning was the case of Lazarus: "Jn 11:17: On his arrival, Jesus found
that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days.(NIV)"
> Lazarus was already in the tomb for FOUR DAYS, not three days!
>
> Some Bible authorities believe that the COMING Sabbath mentioned in the
crucifxion account was not a Saturday Sabbath but a special Sabbath. This is
stated in Jn 19:31: "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to
be a special Sabbath." NIV.
>
> Will you comment on this.
>
> Isa
>
>
>
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks, Bill:
> >
> > That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe that
NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in a
glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
> >
> > Isa
> >
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Isa,
> > >
> > > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to
be lifeless for three days.  However, part of a day counted as the whole day,
thus being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a second day
commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was dead
the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day.  To argue that
perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides
a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries
did.
> > >
> > > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before
Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE
experiences.
> > >
> > > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have
been reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern
standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the
British Medical Society.
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
> > > >
> > > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would not
apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable from
scripture"
> > > >
> > > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be
dead/buried in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights"
that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three
days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
> > > >
> > > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just before
the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset on
Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural
definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE
BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
> > > >
> > > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish
definition of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was
truly dead when he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection?
(See the Lazarus death and resuscitation account).
> > > >
> > > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only acceptable
Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus before sunset on
Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday as
claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
> > > >
> > > > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he
said this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice,
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed
his last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
> > > >
> > > > Isa
> > >
> >
>

many Christian NDE believers say that God's love is unconditional. There's no
eternal torment nor eternal "soul" sleep". Everyone regardless of their earthly
works including Adolf Hitler, Idi Amin,  Charles Manson,  etc., will eventually
make it to eternal bliss.



Do you believe it?




--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Bill:
>
> That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe that
NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in a
glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
>
> Isa
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@> wrote:
> >
> > Isa,
> >
> > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to be
lifeless for three days.  However, part of a day counted as the whole day, thus
being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a se
542
cond day commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus
was dead the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day.  To argue
that perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and
provides a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his
contemporaries did.
> >
> > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before
Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE
experiences.
> >
> > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have been
reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern
standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the
British Medical Society.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
> > >
> > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would not
apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable from
scripture"
> > >
> > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be
dead/buried
5d6
in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights" that Jesus
appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three days and three
nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and
three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
> > >
> > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just before
the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset on
Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural
definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE
BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
> > >
> > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish definition
of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was truly dead when
he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection? (See the Lazarus
death and resuscitation account).
> > >
> > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only acceptable
Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus before sunset on
Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday as
claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
> > >
> > > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he said
this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice,
"Father, into your
866
hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. NIV.
THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
> > >
> > > Isa
> >
>

well I've heard that marriage is the death of romance.  lol



--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Jimmy Sloan <jimmysloan@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> A few moments after I said, "I do" I looked at my new wife and was like,
"Where am I and what did I just do?"  Does that count?
> Best regards,Jimmy
>
>
>
> To: biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com
> From: bootsdpm@...
> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 06:16:56 +0000
> Subject: [biblicalapologetics] nde
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       does anyone here believes in near death experience?
>

Tom,

I had to read back to confirm, but it seems that I did note that the
extraordinary account of a post clinical death NDE report was posted in
"Lancet", the Journal of the British Medical Society.  I would post the full
article here, but that might run afoul of copyright laws.  However, after I dig
through notes that I was not planning to use just yet, I will be able to provide
Volume and Issue information, probably pages also.  I do hope that you consider
the British Medical Society to be properly scrupulous in determinng which
articles to publish, unlike some tabloid magazines.

Please be careful of what you comment on, as I really do not appreciate someone
implying that I did not comment on a reference when it is present in my post.

As for ancient Jewish death burial practices, you might wish to remember that
many cultures, including 19th century American, recognized that people were
sometimes buried alive.  Sometimes provisions were even made for a string to be
placed in the deceased hands, which was attached to a bell above ground so that
if the supposed deceased person awoke in the grave they could summon help.

Bill

--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, tcmadd2@... wrote:
>
>
> Folks,
>
> Sometimes these discussions begin to enter the realm of the absurd. These
pronouncements that in Jesus' time the Jews did not believe someone was really
dead until they had been apparently dead for three, (or four), days that had to
be days of so many hours seem to me to enter into that realm.
>
> If this were really the case it would mean that the Jews regularly buried
people who they did not know whether they were dead or not!  It is much more
likely that they just said something like, "He has stopped breathing and we
cannot detect any heartbeat, and he is getting cold and stiff...he's dead."
>
> When someone makes the amazing claim that someone who was "clinically dead"
came back and reported a NDE, it would do wonders for the credibility of such a
claim  if the person using this info to bolster their position would reference
the journal or article where this was reported.  Otherwise, it just looks like
the sort of hearsay that travels around Christian circles. You know, claims like
the Russians drilled a hole so deep that the could hear screams coming up from
hell. Or, that NASA computer experts have discovered Joshua's lost day.
>
> Tom M.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Isa <isalcordo@...>
> To: biblicalapologetics <biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 2:53 pm
> Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: nde
>
>
>
>
> Bill:
>
> This is an addendum to my earlier comment.
>
> I accept that for the Jews of Jesus'day, one had to be lifeless for at least
'three days' to be declared 'truly dead'. Thus, Jesus in Mt 12:40-41 said he
will be in the grave 'three days and three nights'. NOTE that Jesus did NOT just
say 'three days" but specifically 'three days and three nights.' This could only
mean 3 sets of 12-hours of daylight and 3 sets of 12-hours of darkness. Proof
for this meaning was the case of Lazarus: "Jn 11:17: On his arrival, Jesus found
that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days.(NIV)"
> Lazarus was already in the tomb for FOUR DAYS, not three days!
>
> Some Bible authorities believe that the COMING Sabbath mentioned in the
crucifxion account was not a Saturday Sabbath but a special Sabbath. This is
stated in Jn 19:31: "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to
be a special Sabbath." NIV.
>
> Will you comment on this.
>
> Isa
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks, Bill:
> >
> > That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe that
NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in a
glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
> >
> > Isa
> >
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Isa,
> > >
> > > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to
be lifeless for three days. However, part of a day counted as the whole day,
thus being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a second day
commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was dead
the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day. To argue that
perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides
a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries
did.
> > >
> > > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before
Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE
experiences.
> > >
> > > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have
been reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern
standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the
British Medical Society.
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
> > > >
> > > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would not
apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable from
scripture"
> > > >
> > > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be
dead/buried in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights"
that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three
days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
> > > >
> > > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just before
the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset on
Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural
definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE
BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
> > > >
> > > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish
definition of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was
truly dead when he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection?
(See the Lazarus death and resuscitation account).
> > > >
> > > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only acceptable
Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus before sunset on
Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday as
claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
> > > >
> > > > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he
said this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice,
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed
his last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
> > > >
> > > > Isa
> > >
> >
>

Bill:

The wailing wall that is left standing to this day is/was NOT any part or
portion of the TEMPLE WALL. It is part of the wall SURROUNDING THE TEMPLE. So
Jesus was accurate in his prediction of ". . . not a stone left standing." Thus,
you are wrong to say that Jesus may not be accurate . . . "

See Wikipedia:  "The Western Wall (Hebrew: הכותל
המערבי‎, translit.: HaKotel
HaMa'aravi), Wailing Wall or Kotel (lit. Wall; Ashkenazic pronunciation: Kosel);
(Arabic: حائط
البراق‎, translit.:
"Ḥā'iṭ Al-Burāq", translat.: "The Buraq Wall") is located
in the Old City of Jerusalem at the foot of the western side of the Temple
Mount. It is a remnant of the ancient wall that surrounded the Jewish Temple's
courtyard and is one of the most sacred sites in Judaism outside of the Temple
Mount itself. Just over half the wall, including its 17 courses located below
street level, dates from the end of the Second Temple period, being constructed
around 19 BCE by Herod the Great. The remaining layers were added from the 7th
century onwards. The Western Wall refers not only to the exposed section facing
a large plaza in the Jewish Quarter, but also to the sections concealed behind
structures running along the whole length of the Temple Mount, such as the
Little Western Wall - a 25 ft (8 m) section in the Muslim Quarter.

It has been a site for Jewish prayer and pilgrimage for centuries, the earliest
source mentioning Jewish attachment to the site dating from the 4th century.
From the mid-19th century onwards, attempts to purchase rights to the wall and
its immediate area were made by various Jews, but none were successful. With the
rise of the Zionist movement in the early 20th-century, the wall became a source
of friction between the Jewish community and the Muslim religious leadership,
who were worried that the wall was being used to further Jewish nationalistic
claims to the Temple Mount and Jerusalem. Outbreaks of violence at the foot of
the wall became commonplace and an international commission was convened in 1930
to determine the rights and claims of Muslims and Jews in connection with the
wall. After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War the wall came under Jordanian control and
Jews were barred from the site for 19 years until Israel captured the Old City
in 1967."

Also, I said in my previous posts that I believe that NDE's before AD 70 as it
is today are FORETASTE of the RESURRECTION (as well as ABORTED PHYSICAL DEATH)
which I believe to be the going on today in accordance with Jn 11:25-26:

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me
will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will
never die. Do you believe this?" NIV

Isa


--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@...>
wrote:
>
> Isa,
>
> The passage does  not dictate what is meant by a day or a night, thus your
dictating that it must be 12 hour periods is adding to scripture.  Again, the
thought of that time was that any part of a day or a night counted as an entire
day or night.
>
> A second point is that this might well have been a true saying of Jesus that
was preserved because it is what he said.  However, this does not mean that he
was accurate.  You might note that he also is reported to have predicted that
not a stone of the temple would be left standing on another.  If this was an
accurate prediction, then how do we still have the "wailing wall" standing in
Jerusalem.
>
> I would again remind you that even though you have not studied sufficiently or
perhaps not realized what you have read, there is ample evidence that the
experience you had (an NDE) was not indicative of the promised future life of
the believers, but rather an experience of the realm of the blessed which has
been described since ancient times, in the Old Testament, ancient Greek
mythology and philosophy (Plato and Socrates knew of it), Ugaritc writings and
ancient Egyptian records all in the western world, as well as recorded in
ancient Chinese records and the Upanishads.  I would likewise suggest ancient
Native Americans, but those records are questionable as the interpretations may
be questioned as well as dating as they were recorded on perishable materials
and regularly updated.
>
> Bill
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> >
> > Bill:
> >
> > This is an addendum to my earlier comment.
> >
> > I accept that for the Jews of Jesus'day, one had to be lifeless for at least
'three days' to be declared 'truly dead'. Thus, Jesus in Mt 12:40-41 said he
will be in the grave 'three days and three nights'. NOTE that Jesus did NOT just
say 'three days" but specifically 'three days and three nights.' This could only
mean 3 sets of 12-hours of daylight and 3 sets of 12-hours of darkness. Proof
for this meaning was the case of Lazarus: "Jn 11:17: On his arrival, Jesus found
that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days.(NIV)"
> > Lazarus was already in the tomb for FOUR DAYS, not three days!
> >
> > Some Bible authorities believe that the COMING Sabbath mentioned in the
crucifxion account was not a Saturday Sabbath but a special Sabbath. This is
stated in Jn 19:31: "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to
be a special Sabbath." NIV.
> >
> > Will you comment on this.
> >
> > Isa
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks, Bill:
> > >
> > > That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe
that NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in
a glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
> > >
> > > Isa
> > >
> > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Isa,
> > > >
> > > > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to
be lifeless for three days.  However, part of a day counted as the whole day,
thus being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a second day
commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was dead
the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day.  To argue that
perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides
a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries
did.
> > > >
> > > > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before
Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE
experiences.
> > > >
> > > > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have
been reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern
standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the
British Medical Society.
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
> > > > >
> > > > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would
not apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable
from scripture"
> > > > >
> > > > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be
dead/buried in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights"
that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three
days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
> > > > >
> > > > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just
before the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset
on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural
definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE
BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
> > > > >
> > > > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish
definition of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was
truly dead when he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection?
(See the Lazarus death and resuscitation account).
> > > > >
> > > > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only
acceptable Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus
before sunset on Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and
sunrise on Sunday as claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
> > > > >
> > > > > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he
said this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice,
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed
his last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
> > > > >
> > > > > Isa
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Boots,

I do believe that God's love is unconditional, but I also do not think that God
will ultimately override our free will.  However, I do also recognize "hell" as
a temporary place an dhave argue that its purpose is not punishment so much as
an extreme teaching tool to discourage people from continuing to follow the
wrong path.  But it God's patience does have an end, and He will do away with
both our current heaven and hell with a final judgment.  Those who continue to
insist on following the wrong path at that final judgment will be destroyed I
think.

Bill

--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "bootsdpm" <bootsdpm@...> wrote:
>
> many Christian NDE believers say that God's love is unconditional. There's no
eternal torment nor eternal "soul" sleep". Everyone regardless of their earthly
works including Adolf Hitler, Idi Amin,  Charles Manson,  etc., will eventually
make it to eternal bliss.
>
>
>
> Do you believe it?
>
>
>
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks, Bill:
> >
> > That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe that
NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in a
glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
> >
> > Isa
> >
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Isa,
> > >
> > > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to
be lifeless for three days.  However, part of a day counted as the whole day,
thus being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a se
> 542
> cond day commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus
Jesus was dead the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day.  To
argue that perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence,
and provides a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his
contemporaries did.
> > >
> > > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before
Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE
experiences.
> > >
> > > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have
been reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern
standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the
British Medical Society.
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
> > > >
> > > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would not
apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable from
scripture"
> > > >
> > > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must be
dead/buried
> 5d6
> in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights" that Jesus
appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three days and three
nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and
three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
> > > >
> > > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just before
the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset on
Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural
definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE
BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
> > > >
> > > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish
definition of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was
truly dead when he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection?
(See the Lazarus death and resuscitation account).
> > > >
> > > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only acceptable
Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus before sunset on
Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday as
claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
> > > >
> > > > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he
said this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice,
"Father, into your
> 866
> hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. NIV.
THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
> > > >
> > > > Isa
> > >
> >
>

Tom and Isa,

That it was not a literal wall of the Temple has been well known for quite some
time.  However, it also becomes a question of just how did Jesus mean that no
stone would be left standing on another?  Did He mean to include this wall or
not.  At least some scholars feel that the fact that the wall remains standing
is a sign that this was a truly preserved saying of Jesus as it could be
interpreted as false.

--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, tcmadd2@... wrote:
>
>
> Bill,
>
> Isa is correct.  Archaeologists are still not sure exactly where the temple
stood.  Herod the great constructed a large platform as a site for his temple,
and the wailing wall is a support wall for one side of said platform. The temple
itself is completely gone. One street that runs beside the temple platform has
many broken paving stones caused by the Romans dumping the blocks that made up
the temple over the side of the platform.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Isa <isalcordo@...>
> To: biblicalapologetics <biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tue, Jan 11, 2011 5:23 pm
> Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: nde
>
>
>
>
> Bill:
>
> The wailing wall that is left standing to this day is/was NOT any part or
portion of the TEMPLE WALL. It is part of the wall SURROUNDING THE TEMPLE. So
Jesus was accurate in his prediction of ". . . not a stone left standing." Thus,
you are wrong to say that Jesus may not be accurate . . . "
>
> See Wikipedia: "The Western Wall (Hebrew: הכותל
המערבי‎, translit.: HaKotel
HaMa'aravi), Wailing Wall or Kotel (lit. Wall; Ashkenazic pronunciation: Kosel);
(Arabic: حائط
البراق‎, translit.:
"Ḥā'iṭ Al-Burāq", translat.: "The Buraq Wall") is located
in the Old City of Jerusalem at the foot of the western side of the Temple
Mount. It is a remnant of the ancient wall that surrounded the Jewish Temple's
courtyard and is one of the most sacred sites in Judaism outside of the Temple
Mount itself. Just over half the wall, including its 17 courses located below
street level, dates from the end of the Second Temple period, being constructed
around 19 BCE by Herod the Great. The remaining layers w ere added from the 7th
century onwards. The Western Wall refers not only to the exposed section facing
a large plaza in the Jewish Quarter, but also to the sections concealed behind
structures running along the whole length of the Temple Mount, such as the
Little Western Wall - a 25 ft (8 m) section in the Muslim Quarter.
>
> It has been a site for Jewish prayer and pilgrimage for centuries, the
earliest source mentioning Jewish attachment to the site dating from the 4th
century. From the mid-19th century onwards, attempts to purchase rights to the
wall and its immediate area were made by various Jews, but none were successful.
With the rise of the Zionist movement in the early 20th-century, the wall became
a source of friction between the Jewish community and the Muslim religious
leadership, who were worried that the wall was being used to further Jewish
nationalistic claims to the Temple Mount and Jerusalem. Outbreaks of violence at
the foot of the wall became commonplace and an international commission was
convened in 1930 to determine the rights and claims of Muslims and Jews in
connection with the wall. After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War the wall came under
Jordanian control and Jews were barred from the site for 19 years until Israel
captured the Old City in 1967."
>
> Also, I said in my previous posts that I believe that NDE's before AD 70 as it
is today are FORETASTE of the RESURRECTION (as well as ABORTED PHYSICAL DEATH)
which I believe to be the going on today in accordance with Jn 11:25-26:
>
> Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me
will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will
never die. Do you believe this?" NIV
>
> Isa
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@> wrote:
> >
> > Isa,
> >
> > The passage does not dictate what is meant by a day or a night, thus your
dictating that it must be 12 hour periods is adding to scripture. Again, the
thought of that time was that any part of a day or a night counted as an entire
day or night.
> >
> > A second point is that this might well have been a true saying of Jesus that
was preserved because it is what he said. However, this does not mean that he
was accurate. You might note that he also is reported to have predicted that not
a stone of the temple would be left standing on another. If this was an accurate
prediction, then how do we still have the "wailing wall" standing in Jerusalem.
> >
> > I would again remind you that even though you have not studied sufficiently
or perhaps not realized what you have read, there is ample evidence that the
experience you had (an NDE) was not indicative of the promised future life of
the believers, but rather an experience of the realm of the blessed which has
been described since ancient times, in the Old Testament, ancient Greek
mythology and philosophy (Plato and Socrates knew of it), Ugaritc writings and
ancient Egyptian records all in the western world, as well as recorded in
ancient Chinese records and the Upanishads. I would likewise suggest ancient
Native Americans, but those records are questionable as the interpretations may
be questioned as well as dating as they were recorded on perishable materials
and regularly updated.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill:
> > >
> > > This is an addendum to my earlier comment.
> > >
> > > I accept that for the Jews of Jesus'day, one had to be lifeless for at
least 'three days' to be declared 'truly dead'. Thus, Jesus in Mt 12:40-41 said
he will be in the grave 'three days and three nights'. NOTE that Jesus did NOT
just say 'three days" but specifically 'three days and three nights.' This could
only mean 3 sets of 12-hours of daylight and 3 sets of 12-hours of darkness.
Proof for this meaning was the case of Lazarus: "Jn 11:17: On his arrival, Jesus
found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days.(NIV)"
> > > Lazarus was already in the tomb for FOUR DAYS, not three days!
> > >
> > > Some Bible authorities believe that the COMING Sabbath mentioned in the
crucifxion account was not a Saturday Sabbath but a special Sabbath. This is
stated in Jn 19:31: "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to
be a special Sabbath." NIV.
> > >
> > > Will you comment on this.
> > >
> > > Isa
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, Bill:
> > > >
> > > > That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe
that NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in
a glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
> > > >
> > > > Isa
> > > >
> > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@>
wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Isa,
> > > > >
> > > > > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant
to be lifeless for three days. However, part of a day counted as the whole day,
thus being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a second day
commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was dead
the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day. To argue that
perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides
a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries
did.
> > > > >
> > > > > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before
Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE
experiences.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one
have been reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to
modern standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of
the British Medical Society.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would
not apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable
from scripture"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must
be dead/buried in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights"
that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three
days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just
before the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset
on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural
definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE
BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish
definition of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was
truly dead when he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection?
(See the Lazarus death and resuscitation account).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only
acceptable Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus
before sunset on Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and
sunrise on Sunday as claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he
said this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice,
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed
his last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Isa
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Bill:

Here is Mk 13:1-2: As he (Jesus) was leaving the temple, one of his disciples
said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!"
"Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will
be left on another; every one will be thrown down." NIV.

Note that the disciple said MAGNIFICENT BUILDINGS - clearly excluding the walls.

Now, here is a quote from Wikipedia: "Holy Temple (Hebrew: áÅÌéúÎäÇîÄÌ÷ÀãÈÌùÑ,
Beit HaMikdash ; "House of the Holy"; Biblical: Beyth HaMiqdhash), refers to one
of a series of structures located on the Temple Mount in the old city of
Jerusalem. Historically, two temples of the Jews stood at this location and
functioned as the centre of ancient Jewish worship. According to classical
Jewish belief, the Temple acted as the figurative "footstool" of God's presence
and a Third Temple will be built there in the future."

Note that "the Temple" was just one of "a series of structures located on the
Temple Mount" and NOT one stone from those series of buildings was left standing
today - JUST AS JESUS SAID above.

The problem with most atheist so-called scholars is that they refused to accept
Jesus' words but "read something into them," like including the walls for
buildings, just to raise doubts to the divinity of Jesus.

Isa
-----


--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@...>
wrote:
>
> Tom and Isa,
>
> That it was not a literal wall of the Temple has been well known for quite
some time.  However, it also becomes a question of just how did Jesus mean that
no stone would be left standing on another?  Did He mean to include this wall or
not.  At least some scholars feel that the fact that the wall remains standing
is a sign that this was a truly preserved saying of Jesus as it could be
interpreted as false.
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, tcmadd2@ wrote:
> >
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > Isa is correct.  Archaeologists are still not sure exactly where the temple
stood.  Herod the great constructed a large platform as a site for his temple,
and the wailing wall is a support wall for one side of said platform. The temple
itself is completely gone. One street that runs beside the temple platform has
many broken paving stones caused by the Romans dumping the blocks that made up
the temple over the side of the platform.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Isa <isalcordo@>
> > To: biblicalapologetics <biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tue, Jan 11, 2011 5:23 pm
> > Subject: [biblicalapologetics] Re: nde
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bill:
> >
> > The wailing wall that is left standing to this day is/was NOT any part or
portion of the TEMPLE WALL. It is part of the wall SURROUNDING THE TEMPLE. So
Jesus was accurate in his prediction of ". . . not a stone left standing." Thus,
you are wrong to say that Jesus may not be accurate . . . "
> >
> > See Wikipedia: "The Western Wall (Hebrew:
הכותל
המערבי‎, translit.: HaKotel
HaMa'aravi), Wailing Wall or Kotel (lit. Wall; Ashkenazic pronunciation: Kosel);
(Arabic: حائط
البراق‎, translit.:
"Ḥā'iṭ Al-Burāq", translat.: "The Buraq Wall") is located
in the Old City of Jerusalem at the foot of the western side of the Temple
Mount. It is a remnant of the ancient wall that surrounded the Jewish Temple's
courtyard and is one of the most sacred sites in Judaism outside of the Temple
Mount itself. Just over half the wall, including its 17 courses located below
street level, dates from the end of the Second Temple period, being constructed
around 19 BCE by Herod the Great. The remaining layers w ere added from the 7th
century onwards. The Western Wall refers not only to the exposed section facing
a large plaza in the Jewish Quarter, but also to the sections concealed behind
structures running along the whole length of the Temple Mount, such as the
Little Western Wall - a 25 ft (8 m) section in the Muslim Quarter.
> >
> > It has been a site for Jewish prayer and pilgrimage for centuries, the
earliest source mentioning Jewish attachment to the site dating from the 4th
century. From the mid-19th century onwards, attempts to purchase rights to the
wall and its immediate area were made by various Jews, but none were successful.
With the rise of the Zionist movement in the early 20th-century, the wall became
a source of friction between the Jewish community and the Muslim religious
leadership, who were worried that the wall was being used to further Jewish
nationalistic claims to the Temple Mount and Jerusalem. Outbreaks of violence at
the foot of the wall became commonplace and an international commission was
convened in 1930 to determine the rights and claims of Muslims and Jews in
connection with the wall. After the 1948 Arab-Israeli War the wall came under
Jordanian control and Jews were barred from the site for 19 years until Israel
captured the Old City in 1967."
> >
> > Also, I said in my previous posts that I believe that NDE's before AD 70 as
it is today are FORETASTE of the RESURRECTION (as well as ABORTED PHYSICAL
DEATH) which I believe to be the going on today in accordance with Jn 11:25-26:
> >
> > Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in
me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will
never die. Do you believe this?" NIV
> >
> > Isa
> >
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Isa,
> > >
> > > The passage does not dictate what is meant by a day or a night, thus your
dictating that it must be 12 hour periods is adding to scripture. Again, the
thought of that time was that any part of a day or a night counted as an entire
day or night.
> > >
> > > A second point is that this might well have been a true saying of Jesus
that was preserved because it is what he said. However, this does not mean that
he was accurate. You might note that he also is reported to have predicted that
not a stone of the temple would be left standing on another. If this was an
accurate prediction, then how do we still have the "wailing wall" standing in
Jerusalem.
> > >
> > > I would again remind you that even though you have not studied
sufficiently or perhaps not realized what you have read, there is ample evidence
that the experience you had (an NDE) was not indicative of the promised future
life of the believers, but rather an experience of the realm of the blessed
which has been described since ancient times, in the Old Testament, ancient
Greek mythology and philosophy (Plato and Socrates knew of it), Ugaritc writings
and ancient Egyptian records all in the western world, as well as recorded in
ancient Chinese records and the Upanishads. I would likewise suggest ancient
Native Americans, but those records are questionable as the interpretations may
be questioned as well as dating as they were recorded on perishable materials
and regularly updated.
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bill:
> > > >
> > > > This is an addendum to my earlier comment.
> > > >
> > > > I accept that for the Jews of Jesus'day, one had to be lifeless for at
least 'three days' to be declared 'truly dead'. Thus, Jesus in Mt 12:40-41 said
he will be in the grave 'three days and three nights'. NOTE that Jesus did NOT
just say 'three days" but specifically 'three days and three nights.' This could
only mean 3 sets of 12-hours of daylight and 3 sets of 12-hours of darkness.
Proof for this meaning was the case of Lazarus: "Jn 11:17: On his arrival, Jesus
found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days.(NIV)"
> > > > Lazarus was already in the tomb for FOUR DAYS, not three days!
> > > >
> > > > Some Bible authorities believe that the COMING Sabbath mentioned in the
crucifxion account was not a Saturday Sabbath but a special Sabbath. This is
stated in Jn 19:31: "Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to
be a special Sabbath." NIV.
> > > >
> > > > Will you comment on this.
> > > >
> > > > Isa
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, Bill:
> > > > >
> > > > > That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe
that NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in
a glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
> > > > >
> > > > > Isa
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William"
<eliadefollower@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Isa,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead
meant to be lifeless for three days. However, part of a day counted as the whole
day, thus being buried before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a second
day commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus Jesus was
dead the prerequisite three days for Jewish tradition of His day. To argue that
perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is to argue from silence, and provides
a far weaker argument than to argue that Jesus did believe as his contemporaries
did.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well
before Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE
experiences.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one
have been reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to
modern standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of
the British Medical Society.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bill
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@>
wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?)
would not apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is
questionable from scripture"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one must
be dead/buried in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights"
that Jesus appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three
days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just
before the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset
on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural
definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE
BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish
definition of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was
truly dead when he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection?
(See the Lazarus death and resuscitation account).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only
acceptable Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus
before sunset on Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and
sunrise on Sunday as claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > BUT then, Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when
he said this just before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice,
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed
his last. NIV. THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Isa
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Isa,

You have offered what is a plausible defense;  However we are left with the
problem of not being able to be certain just what Jesus meant.  The scholars who
argue that the wall would have been included wish to take things one way and
will bend interpretation of scripture to that end, usually liberal.  On the
other hand there are also scholars who will bend interpretation of scripture any
way they have to to ensure that in their eyes scripture is unchallengable,
usually conservative.  This goes so far as to influence dating of books of
scripture or the nature of the resurrection.  Neither approach can be
established as correct given our present state of knowledge, but I suspect both
are right in places and wrong in others.

Now to return to the question of NDE's, the most common description of what is
experienced, suggests that this experience has been known of and recorded since
ancient times in multiple cultures, thus adding credibility to the accounts. 
The mechanics of the process remain debatable, but has largely to do with one's
prevailing worldview.

--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@...> wrote:
>
> Bill:
>
> Here is Mk 13:1-2: As he (Jesus) was leaving the temple, one of his disciples
said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!"
"Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will
be left on another; every one will be thrown down." NIV.
>
> Note that the disciple said MAGNIFICENT BUILDINGS - clearly excluding the
walls.
>
> Now, here is a quote from Wikipedia: "Holy Temple (Hebrew: áÅÌéúÎäÇîÄÌ÷ÀãÈÌùÑ,
Beit HaMikdash ; "House of the Holy"; Biblical: Beyth HaMiqdhash), refers to one
of a series of structures located on the Temple Mount in the old city of
Jerusalem. Historically, two temples of the Jews stood at this location and
functioned as the centre of ancient Jewish worship. According to classical
Jewish belief, the Temple acted as the figurative "footstool" of God's presence
and a Third Temple will be built there in the future."
>
> Note that "the Temple" was just one of "a series of structures located on the
Temple Mount" and NOT one stone from those series of buildings was left standing
today - JUST AS JESUS SAID above.
>
> The problem with most atheist so-called scholars is that they refused to
accept Jesus' words but "read something into them," like including the walls for
buildings, just to raise doubts to the divinity of Jesus.
>
> Isa
> -----

BIll,

according to nde accounts, there are "purgatories" where souls go to be purified
before entering heaven.  it's not a place of torture.








--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@...>
wrote:
>
> Boots,
>
> I do believe that God's love is unconditional, but I also do not think that
God will ultimately override our free will.  However, I do also recognize "hell"
as a temporary place an dhave argue that its purpose is not punishment so much
as an extreme teaching tool to discourage people from conti
628
nuing to follow the wrong path.  But it God's patience does have an end, and He
will do away with both our current heaven and hell with a final judgment.  Those
who continue to insist on following the wrong path at that final judgment will
be destroyed I think.
>
> Bill
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "bootsdpm" <bootsdpm@> wrote:
> >
> > many Christian NDE believers say that God's love is unconditional. There's
no eternal torment nor eternal "soul" sleep". Everyone regardless of their
earthly works including Adolf Hitler, Idi Amin,  Charles Manson,  etc., will
eventually make it to eternal bliss.
> >
> >
> >
> > Do you believe it?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks, Bill:
> > >
> > > That appears to be the orthodoxy's position, so be it. I truly believe
that NDE is a foretaste of the resurrection - the resurrection of the spirit in
a glorious body fit for heaven - where Jesus is now.
> > >
> > > Isa
> > >
> > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Isa,
> > > >
> > > > For the Jewish people of Jesus' day to be considered truly dead meant to
be lifeless for three days.  However, part of a day counted as the whole day,
thus being bur
d3
ied before sundown counted as one day, at sundown a se
> > 542
> > cond day commenced, and at sundown on Saturday a thrid day commenced, thus
Jesus was dead the prerequisite three days for Jewish tra
538
dition of His day.  To argue that perhaps Jesus did not believe as they did is
to argue from silence, and provides a far weaker argument than to argue that
Jesus did believe as his contemporaries did.
> > > >
> > > > Further, the Psalms give evidence that the Israelites from well before
Jesus' day believed in something very similar to what is described in NDE
experiences.
> > > >
> > > > As for the argument that NDE's are something other than death, one have
been reported by at least one person who was clinically dead according to modern
standards (no brain wave activity) as reported in Lancet, the journal of the
British Medical Society.
> > > >
> > > > Bill
> > > >
> > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Correct me if I am wrong. I believe that behind your statement:
> > > > >
> > > > > "So your definition (of death or of resurrection or of both?) would
not apply. Plus your definition (of death/resurrection/both?)is questionable
from scripture"
> > > > >
> > > > > was the Jewish perception that for one to be "truly dead" one mu
5af
st be dead/buried
> > 5d6
> > in the grave/lifeless for at least "three days and three nights" that Jesus
appeared to have accepted in Mt 12:40-41: "For as Jonah was three days and three
nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and
three nights in the heart of the earth." NIV.
> > > > >
> > > > > But if this was so, then Jesus' dying (being declared dead) just
before the sunset of Friday and resurrecting (NOT resuscitating) between sunset
on Saturday and sunrise on Sunday did NOT meet your theological/Scriptural
definition of death. Then by your definitition of death, JESUS MIGHT NOT HAVE
BEEN TRULY DEAD WHEN HE WAS LAID DOWN INSIDE THE TOMB!
> > > > >
> > > > > Or, could it be that Jesus DID NOT truly believe in such Jewish
definition of death but condescended to prove beyond doubt that Lazarus was
truly dead when he resuscitated him, as he would be before his resurrection?
(See the Lazarus death and resuscitation account).
> > > > >
> > > > > If this three-days-three-nights-of-lifeless state is the only
acceptable Scriptural definition of death, then the alleged death of Jesus
before sunset on Friday and his resurrection between sunset on Saturday and
sunrise on Sunday as claimed by orthodox churches are WRONG!
> > > > >
> > > > > BUT then,
93f
  Jesus proved the Jewish people wrong on this issue when he said this just
before he died (Lk 23:46): Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into
your
> > 866
> > hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. NIV.
THIS IS MY DEFINITION OF DEATH IN MY POST!
> > > > >
> > > > > Isa
> > > >
> > >
> >
>