Hi, Rob:

Sorry for the delay in replying to your post.  I was invited by my Alma Mater to
give the Opening Address to its Centennial Celebration (1910-2010) and had to
spend a lot of time framing and writing my paper. Now, I am back.

Because of the length of my response, I am cutting it into several Parts. This
is Part I.

Part I.  The Nature of Sinless Man: Body and Soul

A. Basically, Man Is One Animal among the Many

Man is basically one among the many animal creatures of God.

Genesis 2:7 reported the initial physical creation of humankind: "7 . . . the
Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his
nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living (soul) being."

In the same manner, as Genesis 2:19 reported, were the animals created:

Gen 2:19: "Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the
field and all the birds of the air."

Both were biological and mortal because they needed food for their sustenance;
fruits and seeds for man and green plants for the animals:

Gen 1:29 Then God said to man, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face
of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be
yours for food."

Gen 1:30: "And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and
all the creatures that move on the ground � everything that has the breath of
life in it � I give every green plant for food.".

And both man and animal have the same "life-breath or breath of life or ruach" -
the impersonal breath of life from God for all air-enhaling creatures.

Ge 7:22-23: "Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils
died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and
animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air
were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark."

B.  What Made Man Different from the Animals

But only Man was created in the Image of God, according to His Likeness which is
the SOUL  - the true image of God  -  initially created in the Mind of God:

Ge 1:27-31: "God said, `Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let
them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock,
over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'  27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male
and female he created them."

And that SOUL was then "breathed" into the nostril of animal-man taken from the
dust of the ground quickening every cell in the human form and in effect
assuming the physical form of man:

Gen 2:7: ". . . 7 the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living
being."  Or "LIVING SOUL."

C.  Implications of "a Living Soul":

a) The "living soul" is also its "own template"- not breathed individually by
God at every conception (the male-female bodies having their own template at
fertilization) in the reproduction of the human race: Ge 1:28: "28 God blessed
them and said to them, `Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and
subdue it.'"

b) The pristine soul also served as a "bridge between the spirit world and the
world of matter. The animal-Man was enabled, through the soul in its purity at
creation, to see and communicate with God, Who is Spirit (Jn 4:24: "God is
spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."), and with the
spirit world, making man alive in that world of spirits.  Similarly, God who is
Spirit was enabled, through the soul, via the animal-Man became alive to man and
to the material universe. Thus, we may say that initially, man was dual - body
and soul - truly a living being, a living soul in both worlds of spirit and
matter.

C.  What the Soul Is

Man's mandate to "Subdue the earth" makes the Soul the Seat of Intellect. It is
reasonable to believe that God  -  in  creating man, the earth as his dwelling
place, and man's perceivable universe from his vantage point  -  had given man
the capacity to know and to understand the nature of matter of which the
universe is made of, the forces that govern all matter, and the laws that define
the interaction between matter and force in the workings of the created
universe. This is demanded from God's mandate to man "to subdue the earth," that
is, to know, to understand, and to harness the universe's resources and the
forces and the laws that are embedded in His creations for the benefit of
humankind. This is only possible if man was created as a "kind of a mind" with
the mind-man created for the universe and the universe for man, coupling the
workings of the universe to the workings of the human mind. Since the human
mind, at the highest  level of analysis, uses pure reason or logic, it follows
that the universe and its workings can be discovered through use of logic the
end-results of which are expressed in mathematical equations.

As God declared, it is only man, of all those which have the breath of life, who
was "created in the image of God, in His likeness."  Since only mind has the
potential ability to perceive, to know, to understand the limit of God's
revelation of Himself, the workings of God's creations, and the ability to
harness the resources, forces, and laws of the material universe, whose Creator
is God, then it is not unreasonable to conclude that what was created as an
image of God in man was the image of God as Mind, which mirrors the divine
intellect and emotions. That is to say that the mind of man, however limited it
may be in its ability to comprehend the fullness of God and the laws embedded in
God's creations, is a reflection, an image of God as Mind or the Mind of God. 
It is this man's God-like nature that differentiates man from all the animals.

The human mind, as an image of its Creator, is what is commonly called the
"soul" or the "personalized  breath" of God in each man that guides the
evolution of the physical brain. This makes the soul the spiritual seat of the
intellect, mental and emotional, and the repository of memories, a requisite for
intellect, whose interaction with the human brain produces thoughts - both
random and highly organized, while the physical body expresses his/her animal or
biological nature.

D.  The Mortal Nature of the Soul

There is no question that the the pristine body of man was/is mortal. Precisely
because the "life of the soul" was dependent on the human body, this also makes
the soul "mortal" in the sense that when separated from the body, it goes into a
"state of death" until God chooses to destroy it by leaving it for all time in
the grave or hell.

Mt 10:28: Mt 10:28: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill
the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in
hell."  In the Bible,"hell" could also mean the grave.

The presence of the "Tree of Life" at the center of the garden where he placed
man shows God's intention to give the soul an immortal body at such time that He
alone determines.

To be continued.

May God bless us all

Isa
In Service to the People of God.

-------
--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <faithhasitsreasons@...>
wrote:
>
> Isa,
>
> Your questions are not "clarificatory" but argumentative. I await your
presentation of your own beliefs on these questions, followed by your promised
response to my arguments concerning Jesus' resurrection, presented in the
following post:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biblicalapologetics/message/2761
>
> FYI, I hold that human nature is fundamentally a dichotomy. I am familiar with
the arguments for trichotomy but do not agree with them. But again, I am
interested in your response to the above-cited post.
>
> In Christ's service,
> Rob Bowman
>
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Rob:
> >
> > Thanks for your reply putting your doctrine/concept in writing on the issue
of man, death, and resurrection. But let me first ask clarificatory questions
and I will then follow these with my doctrine in my next post.
>

Isa,

I think that all of us can understand a delay in response, as I imagine that all
of us have a life away from the computer.

Now for my responses, 1 A, I have no problems.

1 B, we have problems.  I don't have my Hebrew text in from of me, so
unfortunately I cannot rapidly cite references but I will be looking for them. 
However, if I remember correctly, the word translated as
"soul" in your passages is "nephesh".  Further, I seem to remember at least one
passage where "nephesh" is used of a non-human animal.  If I remember correctly,
there is a major problem for you to deal with.

1 C, another clear propblem exists.  You stated that <<the human mind, at the
highest  level of analysis, uses pure reason or logic>> and this is blatantly
false.  Numerous studies have observed that emotion must be a part of human
decision making.  When emotions are not involved, due to a problem in the brain,
humans are incapable of making a decision.  Pure reason or logic disables human
mental activity, it does not enhance it.

Further, you seem to wish to limit the existence of "mind" or "logic" or
possibly even abstract thought to humanity.  Again you are either ignorant of or
ignoring numerous scientific studies which indicate that multiple other species
use logic and are capable of abstract thought.

1 D, we have another problem.  Not only are we not clear as to what a "soul" is,
we also have a problem as to what "life" is.  Granted the Bible presents as a
dismal place without awareness, but the Bible also presents a second
non-physical place for the soul after it loses its connection to the physical. 
You have even acknowledge the existence of this second option when you addressed
my challenge based on Psalm 23 "and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord
FOREVER."  Further, Jesus implied this second potential destination when He told
the thief on the cross "this day you shall be with me in PARADISE".  Paradise
was one of two potential destination for a soul following physical existence,
and was a most pleasant place to be but was only a destination for the righteous
dead.  The unrighteous dead were destined for a place that sounds much like
biblical sheol.

Now for a challenge for you and your developing theology.  If two potential
destinations for the post-physical soul existed prior to 70 AD, when you have
argued that things changed, where is your clear evidence?  Post change we were
supposed to have a "new heavens" and a "NEW EARTH".  From all I can learn from
science, the earth is the same today as it was pre-70 AD.  You have claimed that
your theology is necessary to avoid making Jesus and Paul false prophets, but in
doing so you seem to be willing to make John into a false prophet.

Bill



--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Rob:
>
> Sorry for the delay in replying to your post.  I was invited by my Alma Mater
to give the Opening Address to its Centennial Celebration (1910-2010) and had to
spend a lot of time framing and writing my paper. Now, I am back.
>
> Because of the length of my response, I am cutting it into several Parts. This
is Part I.
>
> Part I.  The Nature of Sinless Man: Body and Soul
>
> A. Basically, Man Is One Animal among the Many
>
> Man is basically one among the many animal creatures of God.
>
> Genesis 2:7 reported the initial physical creation of humankind: "7 . . . the
Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his
nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living (soul) being."
>
> In the same manner, as Genesis 2:19 reported, were the animals created:
>
> Gen 2:19: "Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the
field and all the birds of the air."
>
> Both were biological and mortal because they needed food for their sustenance;
fruits and seeds for man and green plants for the animals:
>
> Gen 1:29 Then God said to man, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the
face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will
be yours for food."
>
> Gen 1:30: "And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and
all the creatures that move on the ground � everything that has the breath of
life in it � I give every green plant for food.".
>
> And both man and animal have the same "life-breath or breath of life or ruach"
- the impersonal breath of life from God for all air-enhaling creatures.
>
> Ge 7:22-23: "Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its
nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men
and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the
air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the
ark."
>
> B.  What Made Man Different from the Animals
>
> But only Man was created in the Image of God, according to His Likeness which
is the SOUL  - the true image of God  -  initially created in the Mind of God:
>
> Ge 1:27-31: "God said, `Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let
them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock,
over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'  27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male
and female he created them."
>
> And that SOUL was then "breathed" into the nostril of animal-man taken from
the dust of the ground quickening every cell in the human form and in effect
assuming the physical form of man:
>
> Gen 2:7: ". . . 7 the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living
being."  Or "LIVING SOUL."
>
> C.  Implications of "a Living Soul":
>
> a) The "living soul" is also its "own template"- not breathed individually by
God at every conception (the male-female bodies having their own template at
fertilization) in the reproduction of the human race: Ge 1:28: "28 God blessed
them and said to them, `Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and
subdue it.'"
>
> b) The pristine soul also served as a "bridge between the spirit world and the
world of matter. The animal-Man was enabled, through the soul in its purity at
creation, to see and communicate with God, Who is Spirit (Jn 4:24: "God is
spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."), and with the
spirit world, making man alive in that world of spirits.  Similarly, God who is
Spirit was enabled, through the soul, via the animal-Man became alive to man and
to the material universe. Thus, we may say that initially, man was dual - body
and soul - truly a living being, a living soul in both worlds of spirit and
matter.
>
> C.  What the Soul Is
>
> Man's mandate to "Subdue the earth" makes the Soul the Seat of Intellect. It
is reasonable to believe that God  -  in  creating man, the earth as his
dwelling place, and man's perceivable universe from his vantage point  -  had
given man the capacity to know and to understand the nature of matter of which
the universe is made of, the forces that govern all matter, and the laws that
define the interaction between matter and force in the workings of the created
universe. This is demanded from God's mandate to man "to subdue the earth," that
is, to know, to understand, and to harness the universe's resources and the
forces and the laws that are embedded in His creations for the benefit of
humankind. This is only possible if man was created as a "kind of a mind" with
the mind-man created for the universe and the universe for man, coupling the
workings of the universe to the workings of the human mind. Since the human
mind, at the highest  level of analysis, uses pure reason or logic, it follows
that the universe and its workings can be discovered through use of logic the
end-results of which are expressed in mathematical equations.
>
> As God declared, it is only man, of all those which have the breath of life,
who was "created in the image of God, in His likeness."  Since only mind has the
potential ability to perceive, to know, to understand the limit of God's
revelation of Himself, the workings of God's creations, and the ability to
harness the resources, forces, and laws of the material universe, whose Creator
is God, then it is not unreasonable to conclude that what was created as an
image of God in man was the image of God as Mind, which mirrors the divine
intellect and emotions. That is to say that the mind of man, however limited it
may be in its ability to comprehend the fullness of God and the laws embedded in
God's creations, is a reflection, an image of God as Mind or the Mind of God. 
It is this man's God-like nature that differentiates man from all the animals.
>
> The human mind, as an image of its Creator, is what is commonly called the
"soul" or the "personalized  breath" of God in each man that guides the
evolution of the physical brain. This makes the soul the spiritual seat of the
intellect, mental and emotional, and the repository of memories, a requisite for
intellect, whose interaction with the human brain produces thoughts - both
random and highly organized, while the physical body expresses his/her animal or
biological nature.
>
> D.  The Mortal Nature of the Soul
>
> There is no question that the the pristine body of man was/is mortal.
Precisely because the "life of the soul" was dependent on the human body, this
also makes the soul "mortal" in the sense that when separated from the body, it
goes into a "state of death" until God chooses to destroy it by leaving it for
all time in the grave or hell.
>
> Mt 10:28: Mt 10:28: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot
kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body
in hell."  In the Bible,"hell" could also mean the grave.
>
> The presence of the "Tree of Life" at the center of the garden where he placed
man shows God's intention to give the soul an immortal body at such time that He
alone determines.
>
> To be continued.
>
> May God bless us all
>
> Isa
> In Service to the People of God.
>
> -------
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <faithhasitsreasons@> wrote:
> >
> > Isa,
> >
> > Your questions are not "clarificatory" but argumentative. I await your
presentation of your own beliefs on these questions, followed by your promised
response to my arguments concerning Jesus' resurrection, presented in the
following post:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biblicalapologetics/message/2761
> >
> > FYI, I hold that human nature is fundamentally a dichotomy. I am familiar
with the arguments for trichotomy but do not agree with them. But again, I am
interested in your response to the above-cited post.
> >
> > In Christ's service,
> > Rob Bowman
> >
> >
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Rob:
> > >
> > > Thanks for your reply putting your doctrine/concept in writing on the
issue of man, death, and resurrection. But let me first ask clarificatory
questions and I will then follow these with my doctrine in my next post.
> >
>

Hi, Rob:  Here is Part 2 on the Nature of Man.

Part 2. The Nature of Sin-Stained Man:  Body-Soul-Spirit.

A.  Birth of the Human Spirit as Consequence of the Original Sin.

God, Who initially created man and woman, as Body-Soul, placed the two in His
garden. In the garden was the tree of life (Ge 2:9). This tree in a negative way
told us that mankind at his/her creation was subject to death. Its positive
message was that, at God's own time, man had the possibility of gaining access
to the tree of life, thus gaining eternal life.

But also in the garden was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God
prohibited them from eating from it, for should they do they would surely die.

Gen 2:16-17 "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must
not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it
you will surely die."

But Satan, speaking through a serpent, tempted the woman to "be like God"
instead.  Ge 3:4: "You will not surely die, for God knows that when you eat of
it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

The woman took some fruit/seed from the forbidden tree and ate of it. She also
gave some to her husband who also ate it, willfully choosing death over life.
Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked.

God declared; Ge 3:22: "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and
evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree
of life and eat, and live forever."

God banished them from the garden and denied them access to the tree of life. 
Ge 3:23-24:  "So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the
ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on
the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back
and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."

God said to man (Ge 3:19): "By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food
until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

It appears to me that God's judgment on the biological body was and is final and
irrevocable. That the term "body" is not limited to mean "biological body"
cannot be denied.

Man's disobedience of God's simple and single prohibition must have had a
tremendous impact or imprint not only on the  physical nature of man - "their
eyes were opened" - but also to his inner (spiritual) nature. This change in
man's inner nature could only be the birth of what the Bible recognizes as the
human spirit or "spirit of man" - born of willful disobedience - "personifying"
the "covetous and envious thoughts and desires to be like God" which God allowed
to be formed in man as a mark of that disobedience. This human spirit is the
seat of man's WILL and DESIRE!  Just as the soul acts on our brain, this human
spirit acts on the heart. While "intellect" belongs to the soul and is God's and
God's alone, "human will and human desire" belongs to man and man alone and is
reflective of the "real man."

1 Co 2:11-12: For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's
spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the
Spirit of God.

Dt 6:4-6: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.  5 Love the Lord
your God with all your heart (human spirit) and with all your soul (human mind)
and with all your strength (body)."

Zec 12:1-2 declares: "The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the
foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: .
. ."

Ge 6:5:  The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and
that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

Ecc 9:3: The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in
their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead.

Jas 4:5-6 says, "5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit
he caused to live in us envies intensely?"

Bible commentators have found the above verse puzzling. Some Bible versions and
commentaries believed that the "spirit" is the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit
has never been associated with the word "lust." The Interlinear literal
translation has: ". . . the spirit that dwells in us lust to envy?" Hence, this
spirit in James 4:5-6 could only be the "spirit of man" the unredeemed "human
spirit."

Indeed, at the fall of man from God's grace, man had not only become like God
"knowing good and evil."  Like God who is Triune - Son, Holy Spirit, Father -
man has also become triune: body-soul-spirit, with the willful, envious, and
covetous human spirit encasing the soul, like the bone encasing the bone marrow,
both having become an integral "spiritual component of man," encased in a
physical body.

Jesus himself recognized this "triune" nature of man.  In Mt 26:38, he said to
them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death." In Lk 23:46,
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my
spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

Heb 4:12-13. 12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any
double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and
marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all
creation is hidden from God's sight.

1 Th 5:23-24. 23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and
through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of
our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

B. The Fallen Nature of Man and the Flourish of Evil on Earth.

The clarity that un-fallen man was able to perceive and hear God through the
soul became muddled as the human spirit inserted itself between the body (brain)
and the soul. The dislocation of the soul from its seat in the human body
increased the power of this new spirit to receive "Satanic messages and to
transmit the same to the brain as thoughts" that incite the body to evil
sensations and  emotions. These evil thoughts, sensations, and emotions then
mutually reinforce one another, as they do today, until these were eventually
acted out by the body to relieve the pressure on it. It was this rebellious
spirit of man titillated by Satan with envious thoughts that generated hatred in
Cain, the first son of Adam and Eve, against his younger brother Abel that led
Cain to murder Abel (Gen 4:2-8).

After so many generations, mankind's memories in his soul and in his brain of
his once closeness and direct access to God were forgotten except for some
ambiguous need to appease something or someone that led him to worship nature
and false gods.

With Satan having full access to the human spirit, evil flourished on the face
of the earth which compelled God to destroy human kind and everything which had
the breath of life in a worldwide flood (except Noah and his sons and their
wives whom God saved from the flood to replenish the earth with humankind - Gen
7:8-24).

Ge 6:5-8:  The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and
that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
6 The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was
filled with pain. 7 So the Lord said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created,
from the face of the earth � men and animals, and creatures that move along the
ground, and birds of the air � for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But
Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

With the destruction of the pre-flood earth by the worldwide flood ended the
curse on the pre-flood ground ended. But the curse on man and woman inherited by
Noah and his wife from Adam and Eve and by Noah's sons and their wives remained.
So was the fallen nature of man as body-soul-spirit.

After the flood, God gave His mandate to Noah and his family, the very same
mandate He had given to the first man and woman, and allowed them to use the
animals for food but prohibiting them to eat blood and meat with blood still in
it.

Ge 9:1-7: "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and
dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the
air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of
the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves will
be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your
lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from
every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life
of his fellow man.

6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the
image of God  has God made man." 7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in
number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."

And God Who reiterated once again that man was "created in the image of God, in
God's  likeness" made a covenant with man that He would never again destroy man
and the earth in a flood giving the rainbow as a sign of that covenant.

C.  What It Means to Be Born Again.

According to the Bible, the present nature of man is body-soul-spirit. The
"unsaved man" has his human spirit still "unborn of water and Spirit;" the
"saved man" has that same spirit "born of water and Spirit" - its own will and
desires "dying at baptism and being born again" by the leading of the Holy
Spirit to do God's Will and Desires instead until it can declare: Ro 8:16-17:
"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."


God bless us all.

Isa
In Service to the Lay People of God
--------
--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <faithhasitsreasons@...>
wrote:
>
> Isa,
>
> Your questions are not "clarificatory" but argumentative. I await your
presentation of your own beliefs on these questions, followed by your promised
response to my arguments concerning Jesus' resurrection, presented in the
following post:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biblicalapologetics/message/2761
>
> FYI, I hold that human nature is fundamentally a dichotomy. I am familiar with
the arguments for trichotomy but do not agree with them. But again, I am
interested in your response to the above-cited post.
>
> In Christ's service,
> Rob Bowman
>
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Rob:
> >
> > Thanks for your reply putting your doctrine/concept in writing on the issue
of man, death, and resurrection. But let me first ask clarificatory questions
and I will then follow these with my doctrine in my next post.
>

Isa,

Sorry about the delay in responding.

Let me deal with the end first.  I pointed out that those were my observations,
right or wrong.  Because I'm not perfect, it would be foolish to believe I'm
right about everything.  In fact, a person who admits he could be wrong is more
likely to be right than one who believes he's right.

Your response is "I hope I have corrected your observations."  That implies you
are not admitting the possibility of you possibly being incorrect. That yells
out arrogance to me, and to me it multiplies the value of your thoughts by zero.

Let me now go to the resurrection body.  We both believe that there is a
resurrection body, but we use different terms to describe the resurrection. 
Obviously, the resurrection body is not the same as our current corruptible
body, but does this mean there is no bodily resurrection?  On the contrary, a
non-bodily resurrection would leave us spirit/souls without a body.

You mentioned that churches tickle itching ears with the teaching of a bodily
resurrection.  From my experience, those are a very small number.  In fact,
there is probably one such church for every million white supremists who are
members of the NAACP, and likewise one such church for every million vegetarians
that eat Big Macs.  You seem to want to justify creating unnecessary division.

As far as the rapture, don't forget that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 needs to be
considered, which talks about first the dead in Christ rising first and then
those alive being caught up to meet the Lord in the air.  You said the fact that
this has not occurred yet in 2,000 makes Christ a false teacher if we take it
like futurists do.  Where did you get a stupid idea like that?  Just because it
has not happened yet mean they are not talking about a literal catching away. 
After all, 2 Peter 3:1-9 deals with the fact that scoffers question His coming,
that God's time is not our time, and that the reason we think He's delaying is
out of mercy to allow more to come to Him.

I better get to other matters.

Jeff

--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Jeff:
>
> You wrote:
> Let me get to one issue here. Isa, why are you making such a big deal of
whether the resurrection is a physical body or a spiritual body? You are not
questioning the reality of a resurrection body. Why do you think you need to
make a big deal?
>
> My response:
> I do not question a "resurrection body" for Jesus and for all those
spirits-souls who, while in their body of flesh, believed and obeyed Jesus so as
to be Him in heaven at the end of their earthly lives.
>
> 2 Co 5:1-5: "Now we know that if the earthly tent (body of flesh) we live in
is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house (immortal heavenly
body) in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be
clothed with our heavenly dwelling (immortal heavenly body), 3 because when we
are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent  (body
of flesh), we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed
(upon the death of the body of flesh) but to be clothed with our heavenly
dwelling (immortal heavenly body), so that what is mortal  (body of flesh) may
be swallowed up by life. 5 Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose
and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."
(Parenthetical meanings supplied).
>
> But I do question a "resurrection body" that is "flesh and blood just like we
are" because it is definitely not Biblical but a creedal expression by wishful
writers/commentators who want immortality in their flesh.
>
> The NT and OT Bible writers were very careful not to create that impression or
to lead their readers to such a conclusion by NEVER using the phrase
"resurrection of the body" in all their writings. They used instead
"resurrection of the dead" or "resurrection from the dead" or "raised from the
dead" which unquestionably refers more correctly to the raising of the departed
spirit-souls from Sheol - the most dreaded dwelling place of disembodied but
conscious spirit-souls in "state of death."
>
> You wrote:
> I can think of only two reasons why: 1) There is an element to your theology
that would be refuted by the resurrection body being physical, so instead of
plan A and admitting the theology is wrong you go with plan C of making the
Scripture fit your theology (plan B is to make plan A work and destroy plan C
because plan C
> is error),
>
> My response:
> On the contrary, my meticulous examination of Scriptures has led me to
conclude that it is the churches, their theologians, and pastors who have been
tickling the ears of their congregations by promising them "immortality in their
flesh," forcing Scriptures to fit their erroneous theological teachings.
>
> You wrote:
> or 2) you just like to argue.
>
> My response:
> For the sake of truth, yes, I like to argue for the truth. That is why I am in
this crusade to help enlighten lay people consider other possibilities with
Scriptural supports.  Professional preachers preach their interpretations of
Biblical verses or theology as "unquestionable truth" and never, never allow
their congregations to ask questions or raise opinions contrary to their
churches's doctrines. I have presented in my various posts a Biblical doctrine
on Death and Resurrection and I invite anyone and all to prove me in error based
on the Bible and not on creeds.
>
> You wrote:
> I mentioned one concern you had not addressed, and that is the error of
Gnosticism which has crept into Christianity. That error is that the physical is
evil and the spiritual is good, rather than the fact that God created both the
physical AND the spiritual. Your line of thinking fits into the error of
> Gnosticism, whether knowingly or unknowingly.
>
> My response:
> I am not a gnostic and I condemn Gnosticism as being false. The body cannot be
basically evil or basically good but how the body is being used by the "willful,
envious, covetous, unsaved human spirit that has dominated the soul" (Jas 4:1-6)
determines its spiritual state as to being "good or evil." This is clearly
indicated in 2 Co 5:8-10.
>
> Jas 4:1-6:  What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from
your desires that battle within you? 2 You want something but don't get it. You
kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do
not have, because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive,
because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your
pleasures. 4 You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the
world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world
becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that
the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? NIV
>
> 2 Co 5:8-10: "So we (as spirits-souls) make it our goal to please him, whether
we (as spirits-souls) are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we
(spirits-souls) must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each
one (as spirit-soul) may receive what is due him (as spirit-soul) for the things
done while in the body, whether good or bad."
>
> Christians or believers do not do things "while in the body."  Only our
spirits-souls do.
>
> You wrote:
> Your original post also showed you have a full preterist point of view,
meaning ALL prophecy is past tense (as of 70 AD) and that there are no
unfulfilled events including the Second Coming of Christ. If there is no bodily
resurrection, then there is no need for a rapture.
>
> My response:
> Label is not material here. If the prophecies of Jesus and Paul have not yet
been fulfilled, the Bible remains a book of unfulfilled prophecies after almost
two thousand years and Jesus and Paul would have been appropriately branded as
false prophets as others did call them.
>
> Here is your rapture verses: : "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all
sleep, but we will all be changed� 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at
the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised
imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself
with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable
has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then
the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in
victory."
>
> Below are Jesus's statement that were paraphrased by Paul in your so-called
"rapture."  If the words of Jesus below have not yet been fulfilled after almost
two thousand years, then Jesus must really be a false prophet. Preterists, full
or partial, have vindicated Jesus and Paul by declaring, as part of their
understanding of prophecy and history that 1 Co 15:51-54, Jn 11:25-26, Jn
5:25-30 were fulfilled in Jesus's PAROUSIA sometime in 70 AD and in the judgment
on the Jews, as a nation, and on Jerusalem.
>
> Jn 11:25-26:  Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who
believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes
in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
>
> Jn 5:25-30:  I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the
dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For
as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in
himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of
Man.  28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in
their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out � those who have done good will
rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By
myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I
seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
>
> You wrote:
> These are my observations, right or wrong.
>
> My response:
> I hope I have corrected your observations.
>
> May God bless us all.
>
> Isa
> In Service to the Lay People of God
>

William,

First, my apologies for the delay in replying.

Second, you notice what's going on?  I keep pointing to the area where large
numbers are in agreement on what Scripture is, while you keep trying to focus on
the questionable books.  In other words, I am stating that there are
authoritative Scriptures, and you seem to be trying to say that there really
isn't any authoritative Scriptures.

By the way, I don't believe that in and of itself the discussion of books in
Scripture is a salvation issue.  I am not either saved or lost because I reject
certain books of the Bible.  Of course, some of the rejected books are in
contradiction with the accepted ones.

Now to your thoughts on Acts.  I'll state that after reading your rationale on
why it was unlikely for Felix to send Paul to Rome when he appealed, I think you
have some great points.  I would think, after reading them, that Felix was more
likely to leave Paul in Caessarean prison than to send him to Rome.  Of course,
Luke (or whoever wrote Acts) also agrees.  At the end of Acts 24, Felix leaves
his position with Paul still bound for his successor Festus.  In Acts 25, under
Festus, is when Paul appeals to Rome.  Your saying that Felix was the one who
grant Paul's appeal to Caesar is inaccurate with Scripture, and I believe that
inaccuracy is just as accurate as your other critiques.

You mentioned that secular history is not in agreement with Acts.  Actually,
secular history also is not in agreement with a lot of Scripture.  For example,
some pointed out that secular history knew nothing about the Hittites . . .
oops, bad example, since after critics made that claim, archeology uncovered a
great Hittite empire.  Okay, let's go to Belshazzer, the king in Daniel 5, which
secular history has no proof of . . .  another bad example, because archeology
also unearthed records of Belshazzer, including that he was the co-regent under
his father, which made sense why he offered Daniel the 3rd place role
(Belshazzer was #2) and also found plaster which critics said was not around in
those days.  Okay, let me make secular history look good.  It says that Judith,
which claims to be about the post-exilic deliverance from Nebuchadnezzar king of
the Assyrians is not accurate.  Secular history is right, and other historical
Scriptures also agree -- Nebuchadnezzar was king of Babylon, and both he and the
Assyrians weren't around when Judah returned from exile.  That's possibly one
reason why Jamnia and Protestants don't believe Judith is Scripture.

There are three answers secular history can give to Scripture (in this case,
Acts).  1) It can agree with Scripture.  2) It can contradict Scripture.  3) It
can say it has no proof that Scripture's account happened.  2 and 3 are
different.  One says it is false, the other is basically an argument of silence.
Your arguments do not disprove Scripture.  Also, remember history is more
subjective than other forms of learning like math.  Let's look at the
persecution of Christians.  Would the Jews tell it like it is, or would they be
prone to minimize or whitewash anything they did?  I have never heard of that
stoning by Christians of Stephan, and usually stoning was practiced by Jews
instead of Christians.  Maybe that's a made up story called history?  You want
to believe the Bible (or at least Acts) is, so it's fair to say that your
anti-Biblical proofs are the same.

What I've noticed is that people who come up with problems with the Bible don't
want those problems solved.  They want there to be problems with the Bible so
they have an excuse not to believe.  If those problems are solved, they will not
do the logical and honorable thing of admitting they are wrong and believing,
but choose to look for another problem with the Bible because they need a new
excuse not to believe God.

Jeff

--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@...>
wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> I fully agree that ultimately a church council agreed with the Council of
Jamnia regarding the canon of the Old Testament.  However, I trust that you
realize that not all Christians agree on this canon for the Old Testament, some
churches include works that are not included, and this even goes beyond the
Catholic tradition of including the Apocrypha to include works the Catholics
exclude.  However, again to cite Josephus and Philo as agreeing with it is like
saying that Republicans agree with Republicans regarding something.  It says
nothing about what the Democrats, or in this case, non-Pharisaic Jews accepted
as scripture.  Although, let me even amend that statement as there were
Pharisees among the Essene community, and they were not invited to the Council
of Jamnia, and were in fact actively excluded. Further, I trust that you are
aware that the "minor" differences between the versions of the Old Testament are
large enough that they noticably and radically differ in details at places.
>
> Further, with all these great church councils that determined the content of
scripture, you are aware that they actively excluded known Christians don't you.
The great ecumenical councils were only for Christians living within the Roman
Empire, not for any living outside.
>
> And as for meeting certain requirements, some of the works that were included
met the requirements only because the changed the requirements for those
specific works.  Other works were specifically excluded because of political
reasons.  The authorship of some of the excluded works was just as valid under
the requirements as some included works.
>
> But now let us consider one specific work and its accuracy.  Acts claims that
the first mission to the Gentiles was to Antioch.  This might be correct, as
long as "Antioch" does not refer to Syrian Antioch but rather to a place better
known under another name.  This can be well supported by numerous means.
>
> Likewise it claims that Stephan was a Christian stoned to death by Jews, and
the Christians fled because of fear of further persecution.  Again this is
possible, but not plausible.  Secular history records two incidents of stoning
around Jerusalem.  One involved a Stephan.  In both cases the Romans went after
the people involved in the stoning, seeking to make certain no further incidents
happened.  This, even when Roman authority seemed lacking in the area.  However,
the secularly recorded Stephan stoning was done by Christians or Christian
sympathizers and Stephan was a Roman messenger.
>
> Also, there is recorded general low level persecution of the Christians by the
Jewish authorities.  However, the secular records, in cluding from the Jewish
authorities themselves, do not record such activity.  Rather they record general
tolerance, at least in the Jerusalem area.  The problems that Paul records in
his letters are far easier explained as politically based rather then
religiously.
>
> Now for the major problem, and one that cannot be gotten around is the issue
of Paul's arrest and appeal to Caesar.  It is true that as a Roman citizen Paul
had the right to appeal to Caesar if he was charged with a crime.  However, this
appeal was not automatic.  Felix did not have to honor it.  He could have simply
let Paul go, as Agrippa suggested could have been done had Paul not appealed. 
For scripture to imply, as it does, that this appeal required Felix to send Paul
to Rome is clearly false.  Paul might have been charged with something far more
serious then is recorded and that explains it, or Felix had some reason to
cooperate with Paul against the expressed wishes of Nero, as Nero had encouraged
that appeals NOT be sent to him.  And since Felix owed his appointment to
Agrippina II, and since she had presumably been murdered by Nero, what basis
would he have to cooperating against Nero's expressed wishes?
>
>

Hi, Bill,

You wrote:

1 B, we have problems. I don't have my Hebrew text in from of me, so
unfortunately I cannot rapidly cite references but I will be looking for them.
However, if I remember correctly, the word translated as "soul" in your passages
is "nephesh". Further, I seem to remember at least one passage where "nephesh"
is used of a non-human animal. If I remember correctly, there is a major problem
for you to deal with.

My response:

Bible word study often renders 'soul-nephesh' as properly meaning breath,
spirit, the life, the vital principle.

(From Barnes) "In 1 Corinthians 15:45, the meaning of the phrase "was made a
living soul" is, became a living, animated being; a being endowed with life. The
use of the word "soul" in our translation, for psuchee, and nephesh, does not
quite convey the idea.

"The Greek and Hebrew words, however, more properly denote that which is alive,
which is animated, which breathes, which has an animal nature, see the note on 1
Cor 15:44. And this is precisely the idea which Paul uses here, that the first
man was made an animated being by having breathed into him the breath of life
(Ge 2:7), and that it is the image of this animated or vital being which we
bear."

The above quotes support your position that the term "soul-nephesh" could also
apply to "animals." So, your point does not present a problem to my position. As
a matter of fact, this is also my position, that is why I said, "Man is one
among the many animals." God breathed into the dust-man's nostrils the breath of
life, and dust-man became a living being or "living soul." Since all animals
were also made from dust and also received the same breath of life from God -
and became "animated" or became "alive" - it follows that "soul" or "being"
could also be applied to animals.

Obviously, the impersonal "breath of life" or "biological life-source" which is
common to both animals and mankind was not the "soul-nephesh" created "in the
image of God, in the likeness of God (Ge 1:26-27)." Man's  soul, personal to man
alone, was the one created in the image of his Creator. The "breathing" was
simply the mode by which the soul was "infused" into the form of man made of
dust.

From Barnes: "Soul-nephesh" sometimes denotes the rational soul, regarded as the
seat of affections and emotions of various kinds (Ge 34:3; Ps 86:4; Isa 15:4;
42:1; SS 1:7; 3:1-4).

"Neither Moses nor Paul deny that in addition to this (being animated), man was
endowed with a rational soul, an immortal nature; but that is not the idea which
they present in the passage in Genesis 2:7 which Paul quotes."

The rational and immortal nature of the "living soul" in the last two paragraphs
are based on "man created in the image of God" from Ge 1:26-27 and not from Ge
2:7.  See my part 1 - Nature of Man - on the soul as a bridge between the
material world and the world of the spirit.

You wrote:

1 C, another clear problem exists. You stated that <<the human mind, at the
highest level of analysis, uses pure reason or logic>> and this is blatantly
false. Numerous studies have observed that emotion must be a part of human
decision making.

My response:

Bill, you are mistaking "logical analysis" with "decision-making."  Given the
premise(s), the rules of logic demand that you follow them through to their
logical conclusions.  In logic there is no decision-making once the premises are
set. I agree with you though that decision-making could be strongly influenced
by emotions.

You wrote:

When emotions are not involved, due to a problem in the brain, humans are
incapable of making a decision. Pure reason or logic disables human mental
activity, it does not enhance it.

My response:

Consider my earlier post: "This makes the soul the spiritual seat of the
intellect, mental and emotional, and the repository of memories, a requisite for
intellect, whose interaction with the human brain produces thoughts - both
random and highly organized, while the physical body expresses his/her animal or
biological nature."

Note above that I consider the soul "as the spiritual seat of the intellect,
mental and emotional, and the repository of memories, a requisite for
intellect."  The soul is not devoid of emotions.  Logic is.

When one arrives at a crossroad, such as selecting which one of the five string
theories predicting 10 dimensions, is worth pursuing, some decision-making, not
demanded by logic, has to be made. Here emotions come into the process. Strong
emotions could trigger "intuitive solutions"  coming from the soul into
consciousness in the brain. Epochal discoveries in science were/are often the
result of "inspiration" or "intuitions" arising from strong emotions.

You wrote:

Further, you seem to wish to limit the existence of "mind" or "logic" or
possibly even abstract thought to humanity. Again you are either ignorant of or
ignoring numerous scientific studies which indicate that multiple other species
use logic and are capable of abstract thought.

My response:

First, I do not claim that animals had no minds, otherwise they are incapable of
learning from experience or conditioning, which they are. What I claim is that
the "human soul" can only be the  very "Mind/Intellect" of man  - and is the
true "image or likeness of God" - for God, besides being the source of LIFE, is 
MIND/INTELLECT" as well. This identification is demanded if man were to pursue
successfully its mandate - "to subdue the earth" which other animal species were
not mandated to pursue.

No one can claim that the "souls" of animals were also created in the "image or
likeness of God." That being so, we should never consider man as "just another
animal" among the many. While the "outer man" is truly one among the many animal
species, the "inner man" as the inseparable spirit-soul is of the Spirit.

What you call "logic" or abstract thoughts" in animals are most likely
conditioned responses. Repeated activities of such kind can definitely alter the
animal brain to a higher level to become more and more responsive to more and
more conditioning. In effect, "animals do learn." They may be made to "sing" but
they can never be taught to write poetry. Man, by himself, through meditation,
can alter his brain to become more "spiritual." We have the ability to come up
with truly "spiritual brain."  You should get the book "How God Changes Your
Brain" by A. Newberg, M.D. and M. R. Waldman (2009).

You wrote:

1 D, we have another problem. Not only are we not clear as to what a "soul" is,
we also have a problem as to what "life" is.

My response:
Let us clarify the meaning of "nephesh-soul" once and for all. As long as we
limit ourselves to Ge 2:7 (. . . the Lord God formed the man from the dust of
the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became
a living being,"  we are led to conclude that: soul means properly breath,
spirit, the life, the vital principle (Ge 1:20-30; 9:4; Lev 17:11; Dt 12:23 -
from Barnes).

Also from Barnes: "The Greek and Hebrew words, also, more properly denote that
which is alive, which is animated, which breathes, which has an animal nature,
see the note on 1 Cor 15:44. And this is precisely the idea which Paul uses
here, that the first man was made an animated being by having breathed into him
the breath of life (Ge 2:7), and that it is the image of this animated or vital
being which we bear, 1 Co 15:48."

However, when we consider Ge 1:26-27: "Let us make man in our image, in our
likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air,
over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move
along the ground," we must accept the Bible's characterization of "nephesh-soul"
as "denotes the rational soul, regarded as the seat of affections and emotions
of various kinds (Ge 34:3; Ps 86:4; Isa 15:4; 42:1; SS 1:7; 3:1-4)" and as "the
intelligent and the immortal part of man; that which reasons, thinks, remembers,
is conscious, is responsible, etc. Neither Moses nor Paul deny that man was
endowed with a rational soul, an immortal nature."  (from Barnes' Notes,
Electronic Database Copyright � 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All
rights reserved.)

Thus, we have now the perfect Biblical understanding of the "personal"
soul-nephesh as "an immortal, spiritual entity in man, the source of man's
intellect, emotions, and memories - initially infused into the first man at the
"initiation of biological life" metaphorically describe as "breathed into his
nostril."

As the source of human intelligence, we can deduce that the soul-nephesh acts on
the brain guiding the brain's evolution to greater and greater intellectual
development to be able to understand man's  very own nature, that of God, and
God's created universe which he is mandated "to subdue."

Presently, because of the "human spirit" (see Part 2 post), which "personified
in spirit man's covetousness to be like God," which now dominate the soul "with
its will and desires" imposed on the flesh, the soul's spiritual link to the
spirit world has been effectively "dulled" or "subdued." Hence, we have man
today always in pursuit of the selfish and evil will and desires of the heart.

Finally this spirit-soul, now the defining nature of our "inner man," is
"self-infused" at every conception of human life - no longer God-breathed.

I will write my position on "LIFE" and the rest of your points in the next post.

God bless us all.

Isa
In Service to the Lay People of God

--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "William" <eliadefollower@...>
wrote:
>
> Isa,
>
> I think that all of us can understand a delay in response, as I imagine that
all of us have a life away from the computer.
>
> Now for my responses, 1 A, I have no problems.
>
> 1 B, we have problems.  I don't have my Hebrew text in from of me, so
unfortunately I cannot rapidly cite references but I will be looking for them. 
However, if I remember correctly, the word translated as
> "soul" in your passages is "nephesh".  Further, I seem to remember at least
one passage where "nephesh" is used of a non-human animal.  If I remember
correctly, there is a major problem for you to deal with.
>
> 1 C, another clear propblem exists.  You stated that <<the human mind, at the
highest  level of analysis, uses pure reason or logic>> and this is blatantly
false.  Numerous studies have observed that emotion must be a part of human
decision making.  When emotions are not involved, due to a problem in the brain,
humans are incapable of making a decision.  Pure reason or logic disables human
mental activity, it does not enhance it.
>
> Further, you seem to wish to limit the existence of "mind" or "logic" or
possibly even abstract thought to humanity.  Again you are either ignorant of or
ignoring numerous scientific studies which indicate that multiple other species
use logic and are capable of abstract thought.
>
> 1 D, we have another problem.  Not only are we not clear as to what a "soul"
is, we also have a problem as to what "life" is.  Granted the Bible presents as
a dismal place without awareness, but the Bible also presents a second
non-physical place for the soul after it loses its connection to the physical. 
You have even acknowledge the existence of this second option when you addressed
my challenge based on Psalm 23 "and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord
FOREVER."  Further, Jesus implied this second potential destination when He told
the thief on the cross "this day you shall be with me in PARADISE".  Paradise
was one of two potential destination for a soul following physical existence,
and was a most pleasant place to be but was only a destination for the righteous
dead.  The unrighteous dead were destined for a place that sounds much like
biblical sheol.
>
> Now for a challenge for you and your developing theology.  If two potential
destinations for the post-physical soul existed prior to 70 AD, when you have
argued that things changed, where is your clear evidence?  Post change we were
supposed to have a "new heavens" and a "NEW EARTH".  From all I can learn from
science, the earth is the same today as it was pre-70 AD.  You have claimed that
your theology is necessary to avoid making Jesus and Paul false prophets, but in
doing so you seem to be willing to make John into a false prophet.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Rob:
> >
> > Sorry for the delay in replying to your post.  I was invited by my Alma
Mater to give the Opening Address to its Centennial Celebration (1910-2010) and
had to spend a lot of time framing and writing my paper. Now, I am back.
> >
> > Because of the length of my response, I am cutting it into several Parts.
This is Part I.
> >
> > Part I.  The Nature of Sinless Man: Body and Soul
> >
> > A. Basically, Man Is One Animal among the Many
> >
> > Man is basically one among the many animal creatures of God.
> >
> > Genesis 2:7 reported the initial physical creation of humankind: "7 . . .
the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his
nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living (soul) being."
> >
> > In the same manner, as Genesis 2:19 reported, were the animals created:
> >
> > Gen 2:19: "Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of
the field and all the birds of the air."
> >
> > Both were biological and mortal because they needed food for their
sustenance; fruits and seeds for man and green plants for the animals:
> >
> > Gen 1:29 Then God said to man, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the
face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will
be yours for food."
> >
> > Gen 1:30: "And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air
and all the creatures that move on the ground � everything that has the breath
of life in it � I give every green plant for food.".
> >
> > And both man and animal have the same "life-breath or breath of life or
ruach" - the impersonal breath of life from God for all air-enhaling creatures.
> >
> > Ge 7:22-23: "Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its
nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men
and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the
air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the
ark."
> >
> > B.  What Made Man Different from the Animals
> >
> > But only Man was created in the Image of God, according to His Likeness
which is the SOUL  - the true image of God  -  initially created in the Mind of
God:
> >
> > Ge 1:27-31: "God said, `Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and
let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the
livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the
ground.'  27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created
him; male and female he created them."
> >
> > And that SOUL was then "breathed" into the nostril of animal-man taken from
the dust of the ground quickening every cell in the human form and in effect
assuming the physical form of man:
> >
> > Gen 2:7: ". . . 7 the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living
being."  Or "LIVING SOUL."
> >
> > C.  Implications of "a Living Soul":
> >
> > a) The "living soul" is also its "own template"- not breathed individually
by God at every conception (the male-female bodies having their own template at
fertilization) in the reproduction of the human race: Ge 1:28: "28 God blessed
them and said to them, `Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and
subdue it.'"
> >
> > b) The pristine soul also served as a "bridge between the spirit world and
the world of matter. The animal-Man was enabled, through the soul in its purity
at creation, to see and communicate with God, Who is Spirit (Jn 4:24: "God is
spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."), and with the
spirit world, making man alive in that world of spirits.  Similarly, God who is
Spirit was enabled, through the soul, via the animal-Man became alive to man and
to the material universe. Thus, we may say that initially, man was dual - body
and soul - truly a living being, a living soul in both worlds of spirit and
matter.
> >
> > C.  What the Soul Is
> >
> > Man's mandate to "Subdue the earth" makes the Soul the Seat of Intellect. It
is reasonable to believe that God  -  in  creating man, the earth as his
dwelling place, and man's perceivable universe from his vantage point  -  had
given man the capacity to know and to understand the nature of matter of which
the universe is made of, the forces that govern all matter, and the laws that
define the interaction between matter and force in the workings of the created
universe. This is demanded from God's mandate to man "to subdue the earth," that
is, to know, to understand, and to harness the universe's resources and the
forces and the laws that are embedded in His creations for the benefit of
humankind. This is only possible if man was created as a "kind of a mind" with
the mind-man created for the universe and the universe for man, coupling the
workings of the universe to the workings of the human mind. Since the human
mind, at the highest  level of analysis, uses pure reason or logic, it follows
that the universe and its workings can be discovered through use of logic the
end-results of which are expressed in mathematical equations.
> >
> > As God declared, it is only man, of all those which have the breath of life,
who was "created in the image of God, in His likeness."  Since only mind has the
potential ability to perceive, to know, to understand the limit of God's
revelation of Himself, the workings of God's creations, and the ability to
harness the resources, forces, and laws of the material universe, whose Creator
is God, then it is not unreasonable to conclude that what was created as an
image of God in man was the image of God as Mind, which mirrors the divine
intellect and emotions. That is to say that the mind of man, however limited it
may be in its ability to comprehend the fullness of God and the laws embedded in
God's creations, is a reflection, an image of God as Mind or the Mind of God. 
It is this man's God-like nature that differentiates man from all the animals.
> >
> > The human mind, as an image of its Creator, is what is commonly called the
"soul" or the "personalized  breath" of God in each man that guides the
evolution of the physical brain. This makes the soul the spiritual seat of the
intellect, mental and emotional, and the repository of memories, a requisite for
intellect, whose interaction with the human brain produces thoughts - both
random and highly organized, while the physical body expresses his/her animal or
biological nature.
> >
> > D.  The Mortal Nature of the Soul
> >
> > There is no question that the the pristine body of man was/is mortal.
Precisely because the "life of the soul" was dependent on the human body, this
also makes the soul "mortal" in the sense that when separated from the body, it
goes into a "state of death" until God chooses to destroy it by leaving it for
all time in the grave or hell.
> >
> > Mt 10:28: Mt 10:28: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot
kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body
in hell."  In the Bible,"hell" could also mean the grave.
> >
> > The presence of the "Tree of Life" at the center of the garden where he
placed man shows God's intention to give the soul an immortal body at such time
that He alone determines.
> >
> > To be continued.
> >
> > May God bless us all
> >
> > Isa
> > In Service to the People of God.
> >
> > -------
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <faithhasitsreasons@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Isa,
> > >
> > > Your questions are not "clarificatory" but argumentative. I await your
presentation of your own beliefs on these questions, followed by your promised
response to my arguments concerning Jesus' resurrection, presented in the
following post:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biblicalapologetics/message/2761
> > >
> > > FYI, I hold that human nature is fundamentally a dichotomy. I am familiar
with the arguments for trichotomy but do not agree with them. But again, I am
interested in your response to the above-cited post.
> > >
> > > In Christ's service,
> > > Rob Bowman
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi, Rob:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your reply putting your doctrine/concept in writing on the
issue of man, death, and resurrection. But let me first ask clarificatory
questions and I will then follow these with my doctrine in my next post.
> > >
> >
>

Hi, Rob:

Earlier, I have given you my Biblical understanding on the Nature of Man. But
because it is needed to understand the Naure of Death and of Resurrection, I am
recapping it here.

A) On the Nature of Man

Considering Ge. 2:7, Man is basically one of the many animals that God created
having the same "breath of life" as all the animals.
As man was formed from the dust of the ground, so were the animal; as man
received the "life-breath or ruach," so did all the animals. Since "nephesh" is
used about 171 times in the Old Testament, referring to the principle of
vitality in both men and animals, according to International Standard Bible
Encyclopaedia, then the impersonal nephesh could only mean "biological or animal
life." This is the "spirit" that returns to God upon the death of the biological
body.

Ecc 12:7; " . . . and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

But considering Ge 1:26-27, the true man must be "spiritual." As God is
"Spirit," so must the "image of God, His likeness" be also "spirit." Thus, from
God's perspective, the "true man" is the "inner man,"  the "unseen man." Its
existence is "eternal." The animal-man is temporary but the unseen spirit-man,
the "personal man-nephesh-soul" is eternal. It is to this "personal living
nephesh-soul that the Bible identifies as the intelligent and immortal part of
man; that which reasons, thinks, remembers, is conscious, is responsible, etc.
Neither Moses nor Paul deny that in addition to this (being an animated being),
man was endowed with a rational soul of an immortal nature.

2 Co 4:18: "So we fix our eyes not on what is seen (animal-man-outer man), but
on what is unseen (spiritual man). For what is seen (outer man) is temporary,
but what is unseen (inner man) is eternal."

This rational soul being spirit, hence having direct access to God and the
spirit world and also being infused on living matter, the biological animal man,
serves as the bridge between the two worlds of spirit and of matter, then and
even to this day.

Before man's fall from God's grace, man was dual: body-soul or body-nephesh;
after man's fall from grace, God allowed to form in man the "human spirit,"
personifying the first man's enviousness and covetousness, man's will and
desires to be "like God." Thus, not only has man been endued with the "knowledge
of good and evil" as God is but also like God, Who is Triune, man has become
triune: body-soul�spirit. This is the present nature of man.

Zec 12:1-2:  This is the word of the Lord concerning Israel. The Lord, who
stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms
the spirit of man within him, declares:

Jas 4:5: Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused
to live in us envies intensely? NIV

Jas 4:5:  Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth
in us lusteth to envy?
KJV

Heb 4:12-13:  For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any
double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and
marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. NIV

And God condemned animal-man thus:  Ge 3:19: "By the sweat of your brow you will
eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for
dust you are and to dust you will return." Such was "not spoken of the soul" -
as Henry Wadsworth Longfellow declared in poetry.

B.  Nature of Death

1. Physical Death.  Death sets in on man's animal body when the "life-breath,
ruach, soul, nephesh, wind, spirit" leaves the body and returns to God. And
animal-man is returned to the ground completely devoid of consciousness and, in
time, turns to dust. Because there is such thing as "spiritual death," as will
be shown later, that which returns to God CANNOT be the "personal soul, nephesh,
or human spirit or spirit-soul" but the "impersonal life-breath, ruach, soul,
nephesh, wind, spirit" or simply that `undifferentiated, vital principle called
`life' that animates all biological bodies.

Ecc 12:6-7:  Remember him � before the silver cord is severed, or the golden
bowl is broken; before the pitcher is shattered at the spring, or the wheel
broken at the well, 7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the
spirit returns to God who gave it. NIV

Ecc 3:21: Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the
animal goes down into the earth?" NIV

2.1.  Spiritual Death (Before the PAROUSIA of Christ Jesus, AD 70)

When the animal-man or outer man dies, the personal spirit-soul man, the inner
man, in its human form at death, separates from the lifeless body of animal-man.
During this period, before the day of their judgment by the Christ, all
spirits-souls, righteous and unrighteous, went into a "state of death" in SHEOL,
but they were not unconscious! Nor was God unconscious of their existence in
Sheol, particularly those "who are considered worthy of taking part in that age
and in the resurrection from the dead." To God, they were ALIVE (Lk 20:35-38)
for God had not forgotten them! God had set the time when all who were in the
grave would have to come out, the unrighteous to be condemned and the righteous
to eternal life.

Such an existence in Sheol then was exemplified by the spirit-soul of the
prophet Samuel who was called out of Sheol by a spiritist at the request of king
Saul (1 Sa 28:13-14). The spirits-souls in Sheol were not beyond God's reach or
call.

Lk 20:35-38: "But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and
in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,
36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's
children, since they are children of the resurrection. 37 But in the account of
the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God
of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'  38 He is not the God
of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

1 Sa 28:13-14: The woman said, "I see a spirit coming up out of the ground." 14
"What does he look like?" he asked. "An old man wearing a robe is coming up,"
she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself
with his face to the ground.

Now, this is Sheol: According to the Old Testament (OT), "human consciousness" -
spirit-soul - does not return to God but go into a state of death in a place
called Sheol  - the Jewish abode of the spirit-soul of the dead and is
equivalent to the Greek Haides or Hades. The OT sometimes translates it as hell
or pit. The location of this is suggested to be under the earth or below the
ground or under the sea or wherever the dead body was laid. But wherever it is,
it refers to the unseen world - a world of darkness, silence, oblivion,
destruction, disorder, decaying forms, a land of gloom and deep shadow, a land
of deepest night, of deep shadow and disorder where even the light is like
darkness  -  the opposite or antithesis of the living world. Job declared it as
a place of no return.

Jesus (Mt 22:13) also considered the place for the condemned unrighteous
spirits-souls in "state of death" as "darkness, where there will be weeping and
gnashing of teeth."

Thus, the "death state" of our conscious spirits-souls should really terrify us
to accept Jesus as a personal Savior and Sovereign Lord while we, as
spirits-souls, are still able to do in this flesh.

As for Lk 23:43, which appeared to indicate that access to Paradise was
available to the righteous before Christ-Jesus's PAROUSIA, we should debate this
separately. So also is Lk 16:22-24.

Job 10:19-22:  If only I had never come into being, or had been carried straight
from the womb to the grave! 20 Are not my few days almost over? Turn away from
me so I can have a moment's joy 21 before I go to the place of no return, to the
land of gloom and deep shadow, 22 to the land of deepest night, of deep shadow
and disorder, where even the light is like darkness.

Job 16:19-22:  Even now my witness is in heaven; my advocate is on high. 20 My
intercessor is my friend as my eyes pour out tears to God;  21 on behalf of a
man he pleads with God as a man pleads for his friend. 22 Only a few years will
pass before I go on the journey of no return.

Ps 39:12-13:  Hear my prayer, O Lord, listen to my cry for help; be not deaf to
my weeping. For I dwell with you as an alien, a stranger, as all my fathers
were. 13 Look away from me, that I may rejoice again before I depart and am no
more.

Ps 49:13-14:  This is the fate of those who trust in themselves, and of their
followers, who approve their sayings. Selah 4 Like sheep they are destined for
the grave, and death will feed on them. The upright will rule over them in the
morning; their forms will decay in the grave, far from their princely mansions.

Ps 49:13-15:  This is the way of those who are foolish, And of those after them
who approve their words. Selah. 14 As sheep they are appointed for Sheol; Death
shall be their shepherd; And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume So that they have no habitation. 15
But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me.
Selah (NASU).

Ps 88:9-12:  I call to you, O Lord, every day; I spread out my hands to you. 10
Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do those who are dead rise up and praise
you? Selah 11 Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in
Destruction? 12 Are your wonders known in the place of darkness, or your
righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?

Ps 94:17:  Unless the Lord had given me help, I would soon have dwelt in the
silence of death.   Ps 115:17-18:  It is not the dead who praise the Lord, those
who go down to silence; 18 it is we who extol the Lord, both now and
forevermore.

Mt 8:12: But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the
darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

2.2.  Spiritual Death (After the PAROUSIA of Christ Jesus, AD 70)

The key verses that govern the fate of all spirits-souls after the PAROUSIA of
Christ Jesus sometime in AD 70 at the judgment of the Nation Israel are:

Jn 5:25-30: "I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the
dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For
as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in
himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of
Man.  28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in
their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out � those who have done good will
rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned."

Jn 11:25-26: "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will
live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never
die. Do you believe this?"

Jn 11:25-26 is definitely addressed to the "inner man or spirit-soul and not to
the biological man. The statement: "He who believes in me will live, even though
he dies" meant "The spirit-soul who believes in Jesus who dies (go to Sheol at
the death of the biological body) before the PAROUSIA will rise to live at the
PAROUSIA."

Similarly, the statement: "Who ever lives and believes in me will never die"
meant "A spirit-soul who is alive (still infused to a living biological body)
and believes in Jesus at the time of the PAROUSIA, and thereafter, will simply
step out "from biological life to spiritual life" upon the death of the
biological body."

I believe that the phrase in Rv 14:13 "from now on" or "from henceforth" could
refer to the PAROUSIA.

Rv 14:13:  Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead
who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from
their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

I believe, all these took effect at that very moment in history when Jesus
declared it and, for the living is going on to this very day! That means that on
this very day, upon the death of the biological body, man's "inner-man or
spirit-soul" no longer goes immediately to Sheol but "steps out from biological
life to spiritual life" to be judged - "those who have done good will rise to
live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned."

Those who "rise to live" could mean they are given the same immortal, glorious
heavenly bodies as Jesus's, fit for existence in heaven, and who now stand in
the presence of God and in fellowship with Christ Jesus.

The "condemnation" of those condemned, I believed, is well expressed in Da
12:2-4: "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth (Sheol) will awake: some
to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

From the point of view of God, those condemned were still "dead" having no
relationship with God. Since they are still "dead" they were most likely
returned somewhere in Sheol but no longer with diminished consciousness but
fully awake and in full remembrance of their deeds, attitudes, and thoughts
toward God, Jesus, and their fellow man - thus the feeling of shame - all for
giving them the opportunity to recognize their errors and repent - a kind of
being in a "state of purgation" or in purgatory.

They, however, remained as disembodied spirit-souls as yet. They are still
vulnerable to the "second death" - their final destruction - after final
judgment at the second resurrection - should they fail to repent.

Such, I believe from my understanding of the words of God, the Bible, is the
present state of man's immortal spirit-soul. This purely Biblical Theology is,
no doubt, supported by my personal near-death experience.

C.  On the Nature of the Resurrection

And according to John's vision in the book of Revelation, the souls of those
deemed worthy to reign with Christ (and to judge the world, fallen angels, and
their  peers?) will be raised to life from Sheol at the first resurrection
which, again, I believe, occurred sometime in AD 70 at the judgment of the
Nation Israel.

1 Co 6:2-3:  Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you
are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you
not know that we will judge angels?

Rv 20:4-6:  I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given
authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because
of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not
worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their
foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand
years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years
were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who
have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them,
but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a
thousand years.

If there ever will be a "second resurrection" of "biological and immortal"
bodies - a self-contradiction - I leave that to God.

However, the "second resurrection" as Revelation shows is for the "rest of the
dead."

God bless us all.

Isa
In Service to the Lay People of God

-----------------------------

--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <faithhasitsreasons@...>
wrote:
>
> Isa,
>
> Your questions are not "clarificatory" but argumentative. I await your
presentation of your own beliefs on these questions, followed by your promised
response to my arguments concerning Jesus' resurrection, presented in the
following post:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biblicalapologetics/message/2761
>
> FYI, I hold that human nature is fundamentally a dichotomy. I am familiar with
the arguments for trichotomy but do not agree with them. But again, I am
interested in your response to the above-cited post.
>
> In Christ's service,
> Rob Bowman
>
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Rob:
> >
> > Thanks for your reply putting your doctrine/concept in writing on the issue
of man, death, and resurrection. But let me first ask clarificatory questions
and I will then follow these with my doctrine in my next post.
>

Hi, Jeff:

Sorry if I hurt your feelings. That was never my intention. I am here on a
serious study of the Bible with the group. Now, back to our dicussions.

You wrote:
Let me deal with the end first.  I pointed out that those were my observations,
right or wrong.  Because I'm not perfect, it would be foolish to believe I'm
right about everything.  In fact, a person who admits he could be wrong is more
likely to be right than one who believes he's right.

Your response is "I hope I have corrected your observations."  That implies you
are not admitting the possibility of you possibly being incorrect. That yells
out arrogance to me, and to me it multiplies the value of your thoughts by zero.

My response:
You have it all wrong. When I said "I hope I have corrected your observations,"
I was not saying that "to correct your position" but "your observations of my
position."

You wrote:
Let me now go to the resurrection body.  We both believe that there is a
resurrection body, but we use different terms to describe the resurrection. 
Obviously, the resurrection body is not the same as our current corruptible
body, but does this mean there is no bodily resurrection? On the contrary, a
non-bodily resurrection would leave us spirit/souls without a body.

My response:
Let me quote you: "Obviously, the resurrection body is not the same as our
current corruptible body, but does this mean there is no bodily resurrection?"

But this has been the position that I have been saying all along. If it "is not
the same as our current corruptible body, then "it must be different." I never
denied that there is a resurrection body. What I denied is that it is
"biological" which by its nature is mortal.

You wrote:
You mentioned that churches tickle itching ears with the teaching of a bodily
resurrection.  From my experience, those are a very small number. In fact, there
is probably one such church for every million white spermists who are members of
the NAACP, and likewise one such church for every million vegetarians that eat
Big Macs.  You seem to want to justify creating unnecessary division.

My response:
The belief in the physical-biological resurrection of king David has been the
motivating faith of so-called Zionist-Christians pushing to put the whole Middle
East under Christianized Jewish rule. The "Christianized" aspect, of course, has
no place in the Jewish dream. Jewish thought has always been earth-bound. Jesus
tried to correct that with "My kingdom is not of this world" over which He is
now reigning at the right hand of the Father over the kingdoms of the world and
over heaven. Since then,I believe, there is no injustice inflicted by
individuals on individuals and nation on nations will remain unpunished.

As a Christian, I find it a duty to bring that truth to the attention of lay
people who has no opportunity and resources to study the Bible seriously. And I
am simply trying to state the "truth" according to my understanding of the
Christian Faith and not creating division for division sake.

You wrote:
As far as the rapture, don't forget that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 needs to be
considered, which talks about first the dead in Christ rising first and then
those alive being caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

My response:
Please consider that Jesus and Paul were addressing all their messages to their
generation. If I were one of their contemporaries listening to them I believe
that their message was addressed to me and I expect that all they said will be
fulfilled in my own time. And for that, I am willing to give my life preaching
the same message as did the apostles and Paul. In a spiritual sense, it is my
position that all prophesies had been fulfilled since sometime in AD 70. Our
failure to understand their spiritual fulfillment are making both Jesus and Paul
"false prophets." In the case of the First Resurrection, Revelation is clear
that "it is the souls that were raised from Sheol to life:"

Rv 20:4-6: I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority
to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their
testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the
beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their
hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest
of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is
the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first
resurrection. NIV

Just because these are souls, does it mean they have no bodies? They must have
bodies as does Jesus. Otherwise how could they be seen sitting on heavenly
thrones. They must have been clothed with their "heavenly tents" that Paul
talked about.

Now, will there ever be a "physical-biological resurrection" and resurrected
Christians ruling over non-Christians and non-elect Christians on earth? I do
not know. I will leave that to God. But I will not put that in my Biblical
Theology.

You wrote:
You said the fact that this (the rapture?) has not occurred yet in 2,000 makes
Christ a false teacher if we take it like futurists do.
Where did you get a stupid idea like that?  Just because it has not happened yet
mean they are not talking about a literal catching away.  After all, 2 Peter
3:1-9 deals with the fact that scoffers question His coming, that God's time is
not our time, and that the reason we think He's delaying is out of mercy to
allow more to come to Him.

My response:
Now which idea is stupid? My faith that it has been fulfilled spiritually
supported by relevant historical facts and Biblical prophecies? Or teaching and
making people believe in and wait for "physical fulfillment" after almost two
thousand years of expectation? You be the judge.

May God bless us alll.

Isa
In Service to the Lay People of God


You wrote:
>
> I better get to other matters.


--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "preachingjeff" <preachingjeff@...>
wrote:
>
> Isa,
>
> Sorry about the delay in responding.
>
> Let me deal with the end first.  I pointed out that those were my
observations, right or wrong.  Because I'm not perfect, it would be foolish to
believe I'm right about everything.  In fact, a person who admits he could be
wrong is more likely to be right than one who believes he's right.
>
> Your response is "I hope I have corrected your observations."  That implies
you are not admitting the possibility of you possibly being incorrect. That
yells out arrogance to me, and to me it multiplies the value of your thoughts by
zero.
>
> Let me now go to the resurrection body.  We both believe that there is a
resurrection body, but we use different terms to describe the resurrection. 
Obviously, the resurrection body is not the same as our current corruptible
body, but does this mean there is no bodily resurrection?  On the contrary, a
non-bodily resurrection would leave us spirit/souls without a body.
>
> You mentioned that churches tickle itching ears with the teaching of a bodily
resurrection.  From my experience, those are a very small number.  In fact,
there is probably one such church for every million white supremists who are
members of the NAACP, and likewise one such church for every million vegetarians
that eat Big Macs.  You seem to want to justify creating unnecessary division.
>
> As far as the rapture, don't forget that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 needs to be
considered, which talks about first the dead in Christ rising first and then
those alive being caught up to meet the Lord in the air.  You said the fact that
this has not occurred yet in 2,000 makes Christ a false teacher if we take it
like futurists do.  Where did you get a stupid idea like that?  Just because it
has not happened yet mean they are not talking about a literal catching away. 
After all, 2 Peter 3:1-9 deals with the fact that scoffers question His coming,
that God's time is not our time, and that the reason we think He's delaying is
out of mercy to allow more to come to Him.
>
> I better get to other matters.
>
> Jeff
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Jeff:
> >
> > You wrote:
> > Let me get to one issue here. Isa, why are you making such a big deal of
whether the resurrection is a physical body or a spiritual body? You are not
questioning the reality of a resurrection body. Why do you think you need to
make a big deal?
> >
> > My response:
> > I do not question a "resurrection body" for Jesus and for all those
spirits-souls who, while in their body of flesh, believed and obeyed Jesus so as
to be Him in heaven at the end of their earthly lives.
> >
> > 2 Co 5:1-5: "Now we know that if the earthly tent (body of flesh) we live in
is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house (immortal heavenly
body) in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be
clothed with our heavenly dwelling (immortal heavenly body), 3 because when we
are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent  (body
of flesh), we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed
(upon the death of the body of flesh) but to be clothed with our heavenly
dwelling (immortal heavenly body), so that what is mortal  (body of flesh) may
be swallowed up by life. 5 Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose
and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."
(Parenthetical meanings supplied).
> >
> > But I do question a "resurrection body" that is "flesh and blood just like
we are" because it is definitely not Biblical but a creedal expression by
wishful writers/commentators who want immortality in their flesh.
> >
> > The NT and OT Bible writers were very careful not to create that impression
or to lead their readers to such a conclusion by NEVER using the phrase
"resurrection of the body" in all their writings. They used instead
"resurrection of the dead" or "resurrection from the dead" or "raised from the
dead" which unquestionably refers more correctly to the raising of the departed
spirit-souls from Sheol - the most dreaded dwelling place of disembodied but
conscious spirit-souls in "state of death."
> >
> > You wrote:
> > I can think of only two reasons why: 1) There is an element to your theology
that would be refuted by the resurrection body being physical, so instead of
plan A and admitting the theology is wrong you go with plan C of making the
Scripture fit your theology (plan B is to make plan A work and destroy plan C
because plan C
> > is error),
> >
> > My response:
> > On the contrary, my meticulous examination of Scriptures has led me to
conclude that it is the churches, their theologians, and pastors who have been
tickling the ears of their congregations by promising them "immortality in their
flesh," forcing Scriptures to fit their erroneous theological teachings.
> >
> > You wrote:
> > or 2) you just like to argue.
> >
> > My response:
> > For the sake of truth, yes, I like to argue for the truth. That is why I am
in this crusade to help enlighten lay people consider other possibilities with
Scriptural supports.  Professional preachers preach their interpretations of
Biblical verses or theology as "unquestionable truth" and never, never allow
their congregations to ask questions or raise opinions contrary to their
churches's doctrines. I have presented in my various posts a Biblical doctrine
on Death and Resurrection and I invite anyone and all to prove me in error based
on the Bible and not on creeds.
> >
> > You wrote:
> > I mentioned one concern you had not addressed, and that is the error of
Gnosticism which has crept into Christianity. That error is that the physical is
evil and the spiritual is good, rather than the fact that God created both the
physical AND the spiritual. Your line of thinking fits into the error of
> > Gnosticism, whether knowingly or unknowingly.
> >
> > My response:
> > I am not a gnostic and I condemn Gnosticism as being false. The body cannot
be basically evil or basically good but how the body is being used by the
"willful, envious, covetous, unsaved human spirit that has dominated the soul"
(Jas 4:1-6) determines its spiritual state as to being "good or evil." This is
clearly indicated in 2 Co 5:8-10.
> >
> > Jas 4:1-6:  What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from
your desires that battle within you? 2 You want something but don't get it. You
kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do
not have, because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive,
because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your
pleasures. 4 You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the
world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world
becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that
the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? NIV
> >
> > 2 Co 5:8-10: "So we (as spirits-souls) make it our goal to please him,
whether we (as spirits-souls) are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we
(spirits-souls) must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each
one (as spirit-soul) may receive what is due him (as spirit-soul) for the things
done while in the body, whether good or bad."
> >
> > Christians or believers do not do things "while in the body."  Only our
spirits-souls do.
> >
> > You wrote:
> > Your original post also showed you have a full preterist point of view,
meaning ALL prophecy is past tense (as of 70 AD) and that there are no
unfulfilled events including the Second Coming of Christ. If there is no bodily
resurrection, then there is no need for a rapture.
> >
> > My response:
> > Label is not material here. If the prophecies of Jesus and Paul have not yet
been fulfilled, the Bible remains a book of unfulfilled prophecies after almost
two thousand years and Jesus and Paul would have been appropriately branded as
false prophets as others did call them.
> >
> > Here is your rapture verses: : "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not
all sleep, but we will all be changed� 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an
eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised
imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself
with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable
has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then
the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in
victory."
> >
> > Below are Jesus's statement that were paraphrased by Paul in your so-called
"rapture."  If the words of Jesus below have not yet been fulfilled after almost
two thousand years, then Jesus must really be a false prophet. Preterists, full
or partial, have vindicated Jesus and Paul by declaring, as part of their
understanding of prophecy and history that 1 Co 15:51-54, Jn 11:25-26, Jn
5:25-30 were fulfilled in Jesus's PAROUSIA sometime in 70 AD and in the judgment
on the Jews, as a nation, and on Jerusalem.
> >
> > Jn 11:25-26:  Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who
believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes
in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
> >
> > Jn 5:25-30:  I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when
the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in
himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of
Man.  28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in
their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out � those who have done good will
rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By
myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I
seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
> >
> > You wrote:
> > These are my observations, right or wrong.
> >
> > My response:
> > I hope I have corrected your observations.
> >
> > May God bless us all.
> >
> > Isa
> > In Service to the Lay People of God
> >
>

HI, Rob and All:

This is the last part of my responses to your request that I put down my
position in writing on the following:

1) The Nature of Man - posted
2) The Nature of Death - posted
3) The Nature of the Resurrection - posted
4) The Ultimate Fate of Man - See below (present post)

I hope the group will critique my positions on the subjects thus far presented.
Thanks

On the Ultimate Fate of Man:

First, I agree with you, Rob, as to the ultimate fate of redeemed man which I
quote here: "Human beings who are redeemed will live in the new heavens and new
earth (the new universe) as glorified, immortal, resurrected human beings (Matt.
5:3-8; Rev. 21-22)."

Let me expand that to discuss "the who and the how" man may eventually get into
some "ultimate fate."

Science has shown us that the ultimate fate of biological man and the present
earth in the next 4 billions or less years is to be consumed in fire when the
our sun burns out of fuel. Our sun/star will exhaust its supply of hydrogen fuel
in around 4 billion years. Then the Sun's core will collapse under its own
gravity. At the same time, its atmosphere will start to expand. This will
transform the Sun into a huge red giant star. Closer planets like Mercury will
be completely engulfed by the swelling Sun. Earth will be entirely vaporized and
all life on our planet will end (2 Pet 3:7-10? Or was there a more immediate
fulfillment of this verse?).

But then, what is there to worry about? The Bible (Ge 3:19) has long revealed to
us that the ultimate fate of biological man "is to return to the dust from where
it was taken!" Such, however, was not said of our spirits-souls, the "inner
man."

Now, according to the Bible, the fate of man is "to die once and after that to
face judgment." Since the biological man's ultimate fate "is to return dust" -
it follows that to ask about "the ultimate fate of man" is really to ask about
the "ultimate fate of the inner man" for it is "this man - the spirit-soul" that
is eternal, hence could last beyond 4 billion years.

2 Co 4:18: "So we fix our eyes not on what is seen (biological body - outer
man), but on what is unseen (spirit-soul - inner man). For what is seen is
temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. NIV

Heb 9:27-28: "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face
judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people;
and he will appear a second time (PAROUSIA), not to bear sin, but to bring
salvation to those who are waiting for him. NIV


Based on the Bible, there are only two ultimate fates of men's spirits-souls:
(1) to live eternally in the presence of God like the angels in heaven (Mt
22:30-31) in fellowship with Christ for Christians (1 Th 4:17) or (2) be
eternally damned in the "lake of fire" (Rv 20:15) separated from God and Christ
and co-habitating with Satan, the beast, and the false prophet (Rv 20:10).

Mt 22:30-31: At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in
marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. NIV

1 Th 4:17-18: After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up
together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be
with the Lord forever. NIV

Rv 20:15: If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was
thrown into the lake of fire. NIV

Rv 20:10: And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning
sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be
tormented day and night for ever and ever. NIV


Presently, there are two groups of spirits-souls that will receive "immediate
and final" judgment upon the death of the body, These are:

(1) those elected by God before the creation of the world "to be conformed in
the likeness of Christ Jesus so as to fellowship with the resurrected Christ and
to reign with Him over heaven and earth (Eph 1:4-8; Ro 8:28-30;  2 Ti 2:11-13)
and

(2) those who while in their flesh had blasphemed the Holy Spirit, for which
there is no forgiveness, and, therefore, are, at the moment of sinning,
immediately and eternally damned.


Eph 1:4-8:  For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy
and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his
sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will� 6 to the
praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in
accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all
wisdom and understanding.  NIV

Ro 8:28-30:  And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who
love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God
foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he
might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also
called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also
glorified. NIV

2 Ti 2:11-13:  Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also
live with him; 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him,
he will also disown us; 13 if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he
cannot disown himself. NIV

Mt 12:31-32:  And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men,
but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks
a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against
the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
NIV


The rest of the spirits-souls are made to stand in judgment ( Ro 14:10-12; Jas
3:1; Rev 20:12-14; Jas 2:12-13) to be read of their rewards (Mt 10:41-42) or
condemnation in shame and contempt (Dan 12:2-3) - still disembodied, fully
conscious, in their human forms at death - before "appointed judges (Rv 20:4)
who will bring to their memories their attitudes, thoughts, words, and deeds in
relation to God and His OT Law for those under the Law, to God and Christ Jesus
under His commandments, and in relation to Jesus's' disciples, and to their
neighbors."

Ro 14:10-12:  For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11 It is
written: "As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God."  12 So then, each of us will give an account
of himself to God. NIV

Jas 3:1: Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you
know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. NIV

Rv 20:12-14:  The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded
in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades
gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what
he had done. NIV

Jas 2:12-13:  Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that
gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has
not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment! NIV

Mt 10:41-42: Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive
a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a
righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And if anyone gives even
a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I
tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward." NIV

Da 12:2-3: Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to
everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. NIV

Rv 20:4: I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority
to judge.  NIV

Fully conscious and in full remembrance of their attitudes, thoughts, words,
deeds but still disembodied - not yet given their "heavenly tents" - they are
assigned, depending on their spiritual states, to different levels of
"purgatory" somewhere in Sheol for purgation of their sins through repentance
acceptable to God. Not having been given "eternal life in God" represented by be
subject to the "second death."

In time, those whom God's judges will consider to have paid for their sins in
repentance are released from Sheol and given their heavenly bodies and welcomed
into the Community of the Redeemed.

Such then are the ultimate fates of the spirits-souls of mankind. The choice, of
course, is given to each and all of us while we are still in this biological
body!

The scientific study of "near-death experiences" which God had allowed me to
experience personally has strengthened my spiritual understanding and faith in
the Bible.

May God bless us all.

Isa
In Service to the Lay People of God

Addendum: Biblical verses supportive of the doctrine of "purgatory":

1 Pe 4:6;  For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are
now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body,
but live according to God in regard to the spirit. NIV.

(Note the phrase " who are now dead."  If this was done before, why not now
especially for those who died not having known the "goodness of God and of
Jesus" but only the bitterness of their lives on earth?)

Mt 18:32-35: "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he
said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't
you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34 In anger his
master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back
all he owed.  This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you
forgive your brother from your heart."  NIV

(Note the phrase "turned him over to the jailers to be tortured," and "until he
should pay back all he owed."  Although this is a parable, the "spiritual
implications" is clear to those who look at man as "spirit-soul" and not just a
biological animal. This picture supports the very scenario I describe for the
"purgation of sins" in purgatory somewhere in Sheol.)

Lk 12:58-59:  As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard
to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the
judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I
tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."
NIV

(Note the phrase ". . . throw you in prison . . . will not get you out until you
have paid the last penny."  Again, the "purgatorial implication" is clear. )

We are not all predestined to reign with Christ, nor are those not predestined
to GLORY are predestined to be DAMNED! God in Jesus and the Resurrected Christ
Spirit is much. . . . . . . .much more merciful, gracious, and good than those
who teach the doctrine of "Double Predestination."

Dr. Isabelo S Alcordo, Ph.D.
Http://www.layadvocacyforchristianunity.org

++++++++++++++++++++++

--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <faithhasitsreasons@...>
wrote:
>
> Isa,
>
> You wrote:
>
> << To help settle the issue of the resurrection between us, will you please
give me your Biblical doctrine/concept on the following: >>
>
> Okay.
>
> << 1) The Nature of Man >>
>
> Human beings are creatures with physical and spiritual, or material and
immaterial, aspects. The NT contrasts these two aspects using such terms as
"flesh" and "spirit," "outer man" and "inner man," and "body" and "soul" (e.g.,
Matt. 10:28; Rom. 7:18-25; 2 Cor. 4:16; 7:1).
>
> << 2) The Nature of Death
> a)Physical death and the fate of the physical body at death
> b)Spiritual death and the fate of the soul or spirit-soul at death of the
physical body >>
>
> Physical death means that the human person who dies is cut off from life in
the physical realm. (Note the biblical idiom for death of being "cut off" from
one's family, from the land of the living, etc.)Spiritual death means that the
human person is cut off from life in relation to God, who is spirit. Spiritual
death is a present reality for those who are not in Christ; they are already
"dead" spiritually, even while they are physically alive (e.g., Eph. 2:1). Thus,
physical death does not result in spiritual death, because unbelievers are
already spiritually dead.
>
> When the physical body dies, the person does not cease to exist. The spirit or
soul (the inner person) continues to exist in a spiritual state and realm. That
is evident from Jesus' statement that those who kill the body cannot kill the
soul (Matt. 10:28). The NT does not say a lot on this subject, but it does
indicate that believers in Christ exist in a spiritual state and are with Christ
while they await the resurrection from the dead (e.g., Luke 23:43; Phil.
1:21-23).
>
> << 3)The nature of resurrection in relation to the body and the soul or
soul-spirit >>
>
> Resurrection means that a dead human being comes back to full human, bodily
life. The soul and body are reunited in full human life. Resurrection can be
temporary, resulting in a return to mortal life (as it was before Christ's
resurrection) or permanent, resulting in immortal life (as it will be for
Christ's followers).
>
> << 4) The ultimate destiny of man >>
>
> Human beings who are redeemed will live in the new heavens and new earth (the
new universe) as glorified, immortal, resurrected human beings (Matt. 5:3-8;
Rev. 21-22).
>
> In Christ's service,
> Rob Bowman
>

Isabelo,

I must admit that you have presented an interesting picture.  I find it in
error, but at present that is based largely un unproven points.

However, if I am correct, and what data I have examined and evaluated suggests
that I am, then for your proposal to be correct there must have been a
fundamental change in the laws of physic occurring around 70 AD, and there is no
reason to believe this.

Now I am still collecting and analyzing data, so things might change, but it
appears that your approach will flounder on that point.

Bill

--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@...> wrote:
>
> HI, Rob and All:
>
> This is the last part of my responses to your request that I put down my
position in writing on the following:
>
> 1) The Nature of Man - posted
> 2) The Nature of Death - posted
> 3) The Nature of the Resurrection - posted
> 4) The Ultimate Fate of Man - See below (present post)
>
> I hope the group will critique my positions on the subjects thus far
presented. Thanks
>
> On the Ultimate Fate of Man:
>
> First, I agree with you, Rob, as to the ultimate fate of redeemed man which I
quote here: "Human beings who are redeemed will live in the new heavens and new
earth (the new universe) as glorified, immortal, resurrected human beings (Matt.
5:3-8; Rev. 21-22)."
>
> Let me expand that to discuss "the who and the how" man may eventually get
into some "ultimate fate."
>
> Science has shown us that the ultimate fate of biological man and the present
earth in the next 4 billions or less years is to be consumed in fire when the
our sun burns out of fuel. Our sun/star will exhaust its supply of hydrogen fuel
in around 4 billion years. Then the Sun's core will collapse under its own
gravity. At the same time, its atmosphere will start to expand. This will
transform the Sun into a huge red giant star. Closer planets like Mercury will
be completely engulfed by the swelling Sun. Earth will be entirely vaporized and
all life on our planet will end (2 Pet 3:7-10? Or was there a more immediate
fulfillment of this verse?).
>
> But then, what is there to worry about? The Bible (Ge 3:19) has long revealed
to us that the ultimate fate of biological man "is to return to the dust from
where it was taken!" Such, however, was not said of our spirits-souls, the
"inner man."
>
> Now, according to the Bible, the fate of man is "to die once and after that to
face judgment." Since the biological man's ultimate fate "is to return dust" -
it follows that to ask about "the ultimate fate of man" is really to ask about
the "ultimate fate of the inner man" for it is "this man - the spirit-soul" that
is eternal, hence could last beyond 4 billion years.
>
> 2 Co 4:18: "So we fix our eyes not on what is seen (biological body - outer
man), but on what is unseen (spirit-soul - inner man). For what is seen is
temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. NIV
>
> Heb 9:27-28: "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face
judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people;
and he will appear a second time (PAROUSIA), not to bear sin, but to bring
salvation to those who are waiting for him. NIV
>
>
> Based on the Bible, there are only two ultimate fates of men's spirits-souls:
(1) to live eternally in the presence of God like the angels in heaven (Mt
22:30-31) in fellowship with Christ for Christians (1 Th 4:17) or (2) be
eternally damned in the "lake of fire" (Rv 20:15) separated from God and Christ
and co-habitating with Satan, the beast, and the false prophet (Rv 20:10).
>
> Mt 22:30-31: At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in
marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. NIV
>
> 1 Th 4:17-18: After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught
up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will
be with the Lord forever. NIV
>
> Rv 20:15: If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was
thrown into the lake of fire. NIV
>
> Rv 20:10: And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of
burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will
be tormented day and night for ever and ever. NIV
>
>
> Presently, there are two groups of spirits-souls that will receive "immediate
and final" judgment upon the death of the body, These are:
>
> (1) those elected by God before the creation of the world "to be conformed in
the likeness of Christ Jesus so as to fellowship with the resurrected Christ and
to reign with Him over heaven and earth (Eph 1:4-8; Ro 8:28-30;  2 Ti 2:11-13)
and
>
> (2) those who while in their flesh had blasphemed the Holy Spirit, for which
there is no forgiveness, and, therefore, are, at the moment of sinning,
immediately and eternally damned.
>
>
> Eph 1:4-8:  For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy
and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his
sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will� 6 to the
praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in
accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all
wisdom and understanding.  NIV
>
> Ro 8:28-30:  And we know that in all things God works for the good of those
who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God
foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he
might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also
called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also
glorified. NIV
>
> 2 Ti 2:11-13:  Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also
live with him; 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him,
he will also disown us; 13 if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he
cannot disown himself. NIV
>
> Mt 12:31-32:  And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men,
but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks
a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against
the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
NIV
>
>
> The rest of the spirits-souls are made to stand in judgment ( Ro 14:10-12; Jas
3:1; Rev 20:12-14; Jas 2:12-13) to be read of their rewards (Mt 10:41-42) or
condemnation in shame and contempt (Dan 12:2-3) - still disembodied, fully
conscious, in their human forms at death - before "appointed judges (Rv 20:4)
who will bring to their memories their attitudes, thoughts, words, and deeds in
relation to God and His OT Law for those under the Law, to God and Christ Jesus
under His commandments, and in relation to Jesus's' disciples, and to their
neighbors."
>
> Ro 14:10-12:  For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11 It is
written: "As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God."  12 So then, each of us will give an account
of himself to God. NIV
>
> Jas 3:1: Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because
you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. NIV
>
> Rv 20:12-14:  The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded
in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades
gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what
he had done. NIV
>
> Jas 2:12-13:  Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law
that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone
who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment! NIV
>
> Mt 10:41-42: Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will
receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he
is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And if anyone gives
even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple,
I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward." NIV
>
> Da 12:2-3: Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to
everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. NIV
>
> Rv 20:4: I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority
to judge.  NIV
>
> Fully conscious and in full remembrance of their attitudes, thoughts, words,
deeds but still disembodied - not yet given their "heavenly tents" - they are
assigned, depending on their spiritual states, to different levels of
"purgatory" somewhere in Sheol for purgation of their sins through repentance
acceptable to God. Not having been given "eternal life in God" represented by be
subject to the "second death."
>
> In time, those whom God's judges will consider to have paid for their sins in
repentance are released from Sheol and given their heavenly bodies and welcomed
into the Community of the Redeemed.
>
> Such then are the ultimate fates of the spirits-souls of mankind. The choice,
of course, is given to each and all of us while we are still in this biological
body!
>
> The scientific study of "near-death experiences" which God had allowed me to
experience personally has strengthened my spiritual understanding and faith in
the Bible.
>
> May God bless us all.
>
> Isa
> In Service to the Lay People of God
>
> Addendum: Biblical verses supportive of the doctrine of "purgatory":
>
> 1 Pe 4:6;  For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who
are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the
body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit. NIV.
>
> (Note the phrase " who are now dead."  If this was done before, why not now
especially for those who died not having known the "goodness of God and of
Jesus" but only the bitterness of their lives on earth?)
>
> Mt 18:32-35: "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he
said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't
you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34 In anger his
master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back
all he owed.  This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you
forgive your brother from your heart."  NIV
>
> (Note the phrase "turned him over to the jailers to be tortured," and "until
he should pay back all he owed."  Although this is a parable, the "spiritual
implications" is clear to those who look at man as "spirit-soul" and not just a
biological animal. This picture supports the very scenario I describe for the
"purgation of sins" in purgatory somewhere in Sheol.)
>
> Lk 12:58-59:  As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard
to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the
judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I
tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."
> NIV
>
> (Note the phrase ". . . throw you in prison . . . will not get you out until
you have paid the last penny."  Again, the "purgatorial implication" is clear. )
>
> We are not all predestined to reign with Christ, nor are those not predestined
to GLORY are predestined to be DAMNED! God in Jesus and the Resurrected Christ
Spirit is much. . . . . . . .much more merciful, gracious, and good than those
who teach the doctrine of "Double Predestination."
>
> Dr. Isabelo S Alcordo, Ph.D.
> Http://www.layadvocacyforchristianunity.org

Dear Isa,

This reply is long overdue, and not written due to time.

First, you have not hurt my feelings.  I'm getting cynical in my on-line
encounters.  I'm dealing with someone in another group who comes across as
trying to correct my viewpoint on an issue, so I carried that over into this
discussion.  My apologies for doing so.

Second, words can be tricky.  For example, a couple who minister to cults point
out that cultists use our same vocabulary but with a different meaning.  THE
OPPOSITE is true in this discussion, I believe:  I think, Isa, we're on the same
page, but the way we communicate that agreement sounds like disagreement.

Here's one question.  If Adam and Eve did not fall, would they have died? 
Biblically, I see no evidence they would have died if they didn't sin.  Yet they
had biological bodies.  While post-fall biological bodies corrupt, those bodies
do not corrupt because they are biological.  Genesis 5 and Genesis 11 picture
this, when you look at the lifespans in these geneologies, and how they get
consistently smaller after the flood, until in Ps. 90 Moses (who lived to 120)
stated that man's life is 70 years.

Let me put it this way.  I am in agreement with you, Isa, that the resurrection
body is incorruptible, instead of the corruptible one we're in now.  However, I
see no evidence that the resurrection body is not biological.  Likewise, I feel
it is a physical body -- again, not corruptible like the ones we have now.

One area I disagree -- I have never heard anyone trying to put the entire middle
east under Jewish rule.  I have never heard anyone trying to overthrow Jordan or
Lebanon, or put a Christian government in Syria, Iraq, and Iran.  However, I
have no problem with Israel having control of the land they held through
history.  I do have a problem with those who want the entire middle east --
including Israel -- to be under Islamic rule.  When Jordan controlled Jerusalem,
they promised not to let a Jew near the Wailing Wall.  Has Israel had the same
attitude toward the Dome of the Rock?

By the way, when it talks about David reigning, one questions if it refers to a
resurrected David or to the Son of David, the Messiah, Jesus Christ when He
returns.

Let me go to the final point for conclusion.  You mentioned the futurist view is
making people wait for the fulfillment.  First off, it is not inconsistent with
Scripture for the righteous to have faith in something they did not see.  Such
as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph who never saw the fulfillment of the
promise but believed it.  Second, we can only speculate what life after death is
like as far as time.  We have no indication that those who have passed on have
any awareness of time.  Plus, name the individual who has waited 2,000 years for
the fulfillment.

Hope this helps.  Have a blessed day.

Jeff


--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi, Jeff:
>
> Sorry if I hurt your feelings. That was never my intention. I am here on a
serious study of the Bible with the group. Now, back to our dicussions.
>
> You wrote:
> Let me deal with the end first.  I pointed out that those were my
observations, right or wrong.  Because I'm not perfect, it would be foolish to
believe I'm right about everything.  In fact, a person who admits he could be
wrong is more likely to be right than one who believes he's right.
>
> Your response is "I hope I have corrected your observations."  That implies
you are not admitting the possibility of you possibly being incorrect. That
yells out arrogance to me, and to me it multiplies the value of your thoughts by
zero.
>
> My response:
> You have it all wrong. When I said "I hope I have corrected your
observations," I was not saying that "to correct your position" but "your
observations of my position."
>
> You wrote:
> Let me now go to the resurrection body.  We both believe that there is a
resurrection body, but we use different terms to describe the resurrection. 
Obviously, the resurrection body is not the same as our current corruptible
body, but does this mean there is no bodily resurrection? On the contrary, a
non-bodily resurrection would leave us spirit/souls without a body.
>
> My response:
> Let me quote you: "Obviously, the resurrection body is not the same as our
current corruptible body, but does this mean there is no bodily resurrection?"
>
> But this has been the position that I have been saying all along. If it "is
not the same as our current corruptible body, then "it must be different." I
never denied that there is a resurrection body. What I denied is that it is
"biological" which by its nature is mortal.
>
> You wrote:
> You mentioned that churches tickle itching ears with the teaching of a bodily
resurrection.  From my experience, those are a very small number. In fact, there
is probably one such church for every million white spermists who are members of
the NAACP, and likewise one such church for every million vegetarians that eat
Big Macs.  You seem to want to justify creating unnecessary division.
>
> My response:
> The belief in the physical-biological resurrection of king David has been the
motivating faith of so-called Zionist-Christians pushing to put the whole Middle
East under Christianized Jewish rule. The "Christianized" aspect, of course, has
no place in the Jewish dream. Jewish thought has always been earth-bound. Jesus
tried to correct that with "My kingdom is not of this world" over which He is
now reigning at the right hand of the Father over the kingdoms of the world and
over heaven. Since then,I believe, there is no injustice inflicted by
individuals on individuals and nation on nations will remain unpunished.
>
> As a Christian, I find it a duty to bring that truth to the attention of lay
people who has no opportunity and resources to study the Bible seriously. And I
am simply trying to state the "truth" according to my understanding of the
Christian Faith and not creating division for division sake.
>
> You wrote:
> As far as the rapture, don't forget that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 needs to be
considered, which talks about first the dead in Christ rising first and then
those alive being caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
>
> My response:
> Please consider that Jesus and Paul were addressing all their messages to
their generation. If I were one of their contemporaries listening to them I
believe that their message was addressed to me and I expect that all they said
will be fulfilled in my own time. And for that, I am willing to give my life
preaching the same message as did the apostles and Paul. In a spiritual sense,
it is my position that all prophesies had been fulfilled since sometime in AD
70. Our failure to understand their spiritual fulfillment are making both Jesus
and Paul "false prophets." In the case of the First Resurrection, Revelation is
clear that "it is the souls that were raised from Sheol to life:"
>
> Rv 20:4-6: I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given
authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because
of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not
worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their
foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand
years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years
were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who
have part in the first resurrection. NIV
>
> Just because these are souls, does it mean they have no bodies? They must have
bodies as does Jesus. Otherwise how could they be seen sitting on heavenly
thrones. They must have been clothed with their "heavenly tents" that Paul
talked about.
>
> Now, will there ever be a "physical-biological resurrection" and resurrected
Christians ruling over non-Christians and non-elect Christians on earth? I do
not know. I will leave that to God. But I will not put that in my Biblical
Theology.
>
> You wrote:
> You said the fact that this (the rapture?) has not occurred yet in 2,000 makes
Christ a false teacher if we take it like futurists do.
> Where did you get a stupid idea like that?  Just because it has not happened
yet mean they are not talking about a literal catching away.  After all, 2 Peter
3:1-9 deals with the fact that scoffers question His coming, that God's time is
not our time, and that the reason we think He's delaying is out of mercy to
allow more to come to Him.
>
> My response:
> Now which idea is stupid? My faith that it has been fulfilled spiritually
supported by relevant historical facts and Biblical prophecies? Or teaching and
making people believe in and wait for "physical fulfillment" after almost two
thousand years of expectation? You be the judge.
>
> May God bless us alll.
>
> Isa
> In Service to the Lay People of God
>
>
> You wrote:
> >
> > I better get to other matters.
>
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "preachingjeff" <preachingjeff@>
wrote:
> >
> > Isa,
> >
> > Sorry about the delay in responding.
> >
> > Let me deal with the end first.  I pointed out that those were my
observations, right or wrong.  Because I'm not perfect, it would be foolish to
believe I'm right about everything.  In fact, a person who admits he could be
wrong is more likely to be right than one who believes he's right.
> >
> > Your response is "I hope I have corrected your observations."  That implies
you are not admitting the possibility of you possibly being incorrect. That
yells out arrogance to me, and to me it multiplies the value of your thoughts by
zero.
> >
> > Let me now go to the resurrection body.  We both believe that there is a
resurrection body, but we use different terms to describe the resurrection. 
Obviously, the resurrection body is not the same as our current corruptible
body, but does this mean there is no bodily resurrection?  On the contrary, a
non-bodily resurrection would leave us spirit/souls without a body.
> >
> > You mentioned that churches tickle itching ears with the teaching of a
bodily resurrection.  From my experience, those are a very small number.  In
fact, there is probably one such church for every million white supremists who
are members of the NAACP, and likewise one such church for every million
vegetarians that eat Big Macs.  You seem to want to justify creating unnecessary
division.
> >
> > As far as the rapture, don't forget that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 needs to be
considered, which talks about first the dead in Christ rising first and then
those alive being caught up to meet the Lord in the air.  You said the fact that
this has not occurred yet in 2,000 makes Christ a false teacher if we take it
like futurists do.  Where did you get a stupid idea like that?  Just because it
has not happened yet mean they are not talking about a literal catching away. 
After all, 2 Peter 3:1-9 deals with the fact that scoffers question His coming,
that God's time is not our time, and that the reason we think He's delaying is
out of mercy to allow more to come to Him.
> >
> > I better get to other matters.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Jeff:
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > > Let me get to one issue here. Isa, why are you making such a big deal of
whether the resurrection is a physical body or a spiritual body? You are not
questioning the reality of a resurrection body. Why do you think you need to
make a big deal?
> > >
> > > My response:
> > > I do not question a "resurrection body" for Jesus and for all those
spirits-souls who, while in their body of flesh, believed and obeyed Jesus so as
to be Him in heaven at the end of their earthly lives.
> > >
> > > 2 Co 5:1-5: "Now we know that if the earthly tent (body of flesh) we live
in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house (immortal
heavenly body) in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan,
longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling (immortal heavenly body), 3
because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in
this tent  (body of flesh), we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to
be unclothed (upon the death of the body of flesh) but to be clothed with our
heavenly dwelling (immortal heavenly body), so that what is mortal  (body of
flesh) may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now it is God who has made us for this
very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to
come." (Parenthetical meanings supplied).
> > >
> > > But I do question a "resurrection body" that is "flesh and blood just like
we are" because it is definitely not Biblical but a creedal expression by
wishful writers/commentators who want immortality in their flesh.
> > >
> > > The NT and OT Bible writers were very careful not to create that
impression or to lead their readers to such a conclusion by NEVER using the
phrase "resurrection of the body" in all their writings. They used instead
"resurrection of the dead" or "resurrection from the dead" or "raised from the
dead" which unquestionably refers more correctly to the raising of the departed
spirit-souls from Sheol - the most dreaded dwelling place of disembodied but
conscious spirit-souls in "state of death."
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > > I can think of only two reasons why: 1) There is an element to your
theology that would be refuted by the resurrection body being physical, so
instead of plan A and admitting the theology is wrong you go with plan C of
making the Scripture fit your theology (plan B is to make plan A work and
destroy plan C because plan C
> > > is error),
> > >
> > > My response:
> > > On the contrary, my meticulous examination of Scriptures has led me to
conclude that it is the churches, their theologians, and pastors who have been
tickling the ears of their congregations by promising them "immortality in their
flesh," forcing Scriptures to fit their erroneous theological teachings.
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > > or 2) you just like to argue.
> > >
> > > My response:
> > > For the sake of truth, yes, I like to argue for the truth. That is why I
am in this crusade to help enlighten lay people consider other possibilities
with Scriptural supports.  Professional preachers preach their interpretations
of Biblical verses or theology as "unquestionable truth" and never, never allow
their congregations to ask questions or raise opinions contrary to their
churches's doctrines. I have presented in my various posts a Biblical doctrine
on Death and Resurrection and I invite anyone and all to prove me in error based
on the Bible and not on creeds.
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > > I mentioned one concern you had not addressed, and that is the error of
Gnosticism which has crept into Christianity. That error is that the physical is
evil and the spiritual is good, rather than the fact that God created both the
physical AND the spiritual. Your line of thinking fits into the error of
> > > Gnosticism, whether knowingly or unknowingly.
> > >
> > > My response:
> > > I am not a gnostic and I condemn Gnosticism as being false. The body
cannot be basically evil or basically good but how the body is being used by the
"willful, envious, covetous, unsaved human spirit that has dominated the soul"
(Jas 4:1-6) determines its spiritual state as to being "good or evil." This is
clearly indicated in 2 Co 5:8-10.
> > >
> > > Jas 4:1-6:  What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come
from your desires that battle within you? 2 You want something but don't get it.
You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight.
You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive,
because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your
pleasures. 4 You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the
world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world
becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that
the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? NIV
> > >
> > > 2 Co 5:8-10: "So we (as spirits-souls) make it our goal to please him,
whether we (as spirits-souls) are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we
(spirits-souls) must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each
one (as spirit-soul) may receive what is due him (as spirit-soul) for the things
done while in the body, whether good or bad."
> > >
> > > Christians or believers do not do things "while in the body."  Only our
spirits-souls do.
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > > Your original post also showed you have a full preterist point of view,
meaning ALL prophecy is past tense (as of 70 AD) and that there are no
unfulfilled events including the Second Coming of Christ. If there is no bodily
resurrection, then there is no need for a rapture.
> > >
> > > My response:
> > > Label is not material here. If the prophecies of Jesus and Paul have not
yet been fulfilled, the Bible remains a book of unfulfilled prophecies after
almost two thousand years and Jesus and Paul would have been appropriately
branded as false prophets as others did call them.
> > >
> > > Here is your rapture verses: : "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not
all sleep, but we will all be changed� 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an
eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised
imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself
with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable
has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then
the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in
victory."
> > >
> > > Below are Jesus's statement that were paraphrased by Paul in your
so-called "rapture."  If the words of Jesus below have not yet been fulfilled
after almost two thousand years, then Jesus must really be a false prophet.
Preterists, full or partial, have vindicated Jesus and Paul by declaring, as
part of their understanding of prophecy and history that 1 Co 15:51-54, Jn
11:25-26, Jn 5:25-30 were fulfilled in Jesus's PAROUSIA sometime in 70 AD and in
the judgment on the Jews, as a nation, and on Jerusalem.
> > >
> > > Jn 11:25-26:  Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He
who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and
believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
> > >
> > > Jn 5:25-30:  I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when
the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in
himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of
Man.  28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in
their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out � those who have done good will
rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By
myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I
seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > > These are my observations, right or wrong.
> > >
> > > My response:
> > > I hope I have corrected your observations.
> > >
> > > May God bless us all.
> > >
> > > Isa
> > > In Service to the Lay People of God
> > >
> >
>

Hi, Jeff,

I am glad all is well between us. I too believe that "we're on the same page,
but the way we communicate that agreement sounds like disagreement."

You wrote:
Here's one question.  If Adam and Eve did not fall, would they have died? 
Biblically, I see no evidence they would have died if they didn't sin.  Yet they
had biological bodies.  While post-fall biological bodies corrupt, those bodies
do not corrupt because they are biological.  Genesis 5 and Genesis 11 picture
this, when you look at the life spans in these genealogies, and how they get
consistently smaller after the flood, until in Ps. 90 Moses (who lived to 120)
stated that man's life is 70 years.

My response:
I believe that the Bible tells us that the "pre-fall" biological bodies of Adam
and Eve were also subject to biological death without God's intervention. The
reason is that "these bodies need sustenance from outside themselves - that is
food." And as long as there is physiological activities, there will always be
the "wearing out" and aging.  Thus, God planted the "tree of life" in the middle
of the garden for the biological, mortal bodies' future transformation into
"immortal bodies," in God's own time, in the form of human bodies. Otherwise,
there would be no reason why God had that "tree of life" in the garden. The tree
of life symbolizes "eventual death" of the biological body, whether he/she
sinned or not, and "future immortality" back to God of the man's soul in human
form. Thus:

Ge 3:21-24: And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us,
knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take
also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God
banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been
taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden
of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to
the tree of life. NIV

You wrote:
Let me put it this way.  I am in agreement with you, Isa, that the resurrection
body is incorruptible, instead of the corruptible one we're in now.  However, I
see no evidence that the resurrection body is not biological.  Likewise, I feel
it is a physical body -- again, not corruptible like the ones we have now.

My response:
"Physicality" is relative.  To the spirits, we are not "physical" because they
can pass through our bodies, not our bodies passing through theirs; to us, the
spirits had no physical bodies by our definition of "spirits." For one spirit to
another, they are as physically endued as we are to one another. Here again, we
have to have the same reference - spiritual bodies in the spirit world,
biological bodies to the biological world. To their respective world, these
bodies are "physical" meaning "solid." Otherwise, the spirits will not be
distinguishable one from another. Consider what Jesus said about the Father:

Mt 18:10:  10 "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I
tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.
NIV

You wrote:
One area I disagree -- I have never heard anyone trying to put the entire middle
east under Jewish rule.  I have never heard anyone trying to overthrow Jordan or
Lebanon, or put a Christian government in Syria, Iraq, and Iran.  However, I
have no problem with Israel having control of the land they held through
history.  I do have a problem with those who want the entire middle east --
including Israel -- to be under Islamic rule.  When Jordan controlled Jerusalem,
they promised not to let a Jew near the Wailing Wall.  Has Israel had the same
attitude toward the Dome of the Rock?

My response:
Zionist Christians are Christian churches that believe and support the eventual
political control by the Jews, with Jerusalem as the seat of the government of
national Israel, of the full extent of "the promised land." They are unwitting
tools of Zionism.  But this is a difficult issue.  So, let me refer you to the
webpage:  http://sites.google.com/site/911newworldorderfiles/quotesonzionism. 
Check also Zionism in the internet.

You wrote:
By the way, when it talks about David reigning, one questions if it refers to a
resurrected David or to the Son of David, the Messiah, Jesus Christ when He
returns.

My response:
1 Ch 17:10-14 should answer your question:  "'I declare to you that the Lord
will build a house for you: 11 When your days are over and you go to be with
your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, one of your own
sons, and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He is the one who will build a house
for me, and I will establish his throne forever. 13 I will be his father, and he
will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from
your predecessor. 14 I will set him over my house and my kingdom forever; his
throne will be established forever.'"  NIV

It is NOT to David but to his offspring to whom God promised an eternal kingdom,
first referring to Solomon and Solomon's earthly kingdom on whom God "will
establish his (note "his" or Solomon's) throne forever"  (verses 10-13).  Then
note the shift from "his = Solomon's" to "my = God's" in verse 14: "I will set
him over my house and my kingdom forever; his throne will be established
forever."  Verse 14 anticipated the failure of Solomon to deserve an "eternal
kingdom," thus the shift to the "eternal kingdom in heaven" of the resurrected
Jesus - God's Messiah - now ruling over heaven and earth until God shall have
put "all His enemies as a footstool for your feet.".

Teaching a physical reign of Jesus in earthly Jerusalem is not Biblical and
opens the world to the Zionist plot to rule the world, using Zionist money to
subvert all governments on earth by burying them in DEBTS, with one law for the
Jews and another for the Gentiles
(.http://www.takebackourrights.org/docs/noahidelaw.html).  Do you know that the
Talmud allows Jews to have sex with three (3)-year olds?

You wrote:
Let me go to the final point for conclusion.  You mentioned the futurist view is
making people wait for the fulfillment.  First off, it is not inconsistent with
Scripture for the righteous to have faith in something they did not see.  Such
as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph who never saw the fulfillment of the
promise but believed it.  Second, we can only speculate what life after death is
like as far as time.  We have no indication that those who have passed on have
any awareness of time.  Plus, name the individual who has waited 2,000 years for
the fulfillment.

My response:
You wrote: "We have no indication that those who have passed on have any
awareness of time."
To this, I give you Rv 6:9-11:  When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the
altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the
testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long,
Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and
avenge our blood?" 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were
told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and
brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.  To ask "How
long. . . until you judge. . ." is proof that the dead in Christ are aware of
time.

May God bless us all.

Isa
In Service to the People of God

------------------------
--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <preachingjeff@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Isa,
>
> This reply is long overdue, and not written due to time.
>
> First, you have not hurt my feelings.  I'm getting cynical in my on-line
encounters.  I'm dealing with someone in another group who comes across as
trying to correct my viewpoint on an issue, so I carried that over into this
discussion.  My apologies for doing so.
>
> Second, words can be tricky.  For example, a couple who minister to cults
point out that cultists use our same vocabulary but with a different meaning. 
THE OPPOSITE is true in this discussion, I believe:  I think, Isa, we're on the
same page, but the way we communicate that agreement sounds like disagreement.
>
> Here's one question.  If Adam and Eve did not fall, would they have died? 
Biblically, I see no evidence they would have died if they didn't sin.  Yet they
had biological bodies.  While post-fall biological bodies corrupt, those bodies
do not corrupt because they are biological.  Genesis 5 and Genesis 11 picture
this, when you look at the lifespans in these geneologies, and how they get
consistently smaller after the flood, until in Ps. 90 Moses (who lived to 120)
stated that man's life is 70 years.
>
> Let me put it this way.  I am in agreement with you, Isa, that the
resurrection body is incorruptible, instead of the corruptible one we're in now.
However, I see no evidence that the resurrection body is not biological. 
Likewise, I feel it is a physical body -- again, not corruptible like the ones
we have now.
>
> One area I disagree -- I have never heard anyone trying to put the entire
middle east under Jewish rule.  I have never heard anyone trying to overthrow
Jordan or Lebanon, or put a Christian government in Syria, Iraq, and Iran. 
However, I have no problem with Israel having control of the land they held
through history.  I do have a problem with those who want the entire middle east
-- including Israel -- to be under Islamic rule.  When Jordan controlled
Jerusalem, they promised not to let a Jew near the Wailing Wall.  Has Israel had
the same attitude toward the Dome of the Rock?
>
> By the way, when it talks about David reigning, one questions if it refers to
a resurrected David or to the Son of David, the Messiah, Jesus Christ when He
returns.
>
> Let me go to the final point for conclusion.  You mentioned the futurist view
is making people wait for the fulfillment.  First off, it is not inconsistent
with Scripture for the righteous to have faith in something they did not see. 
Such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph who never saw the fulfillment of the
promise but believed it.  Second, we can only speculate what life after death is
like as far as time.  We have no indication that those who have passed on have
any awareness of time.  Plus, name the individual who has waited 2,000 years for
the fulfillment.
>
> Hope this helps.  Have a blessed day.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi, Jeff:
> >
> > Sorry if I hurt your feelings. That was never my intention. I am here on a
serious study of the Bible with the group. Now, back to our dicussions.
> >
> > You wrote:
> > Let me deal with the end first.  I pointed out that those were my
observations, right or wrong.  Because I'm not perfect, it would be foolish to
believe I'm right about everything.  In fact, a person who admits he could be
wrong is more likely to be right than one who believes he's right.
> >
> > Your response is "I hope I have corrected your observations."  That implies
you are not admitting the possibility of you possibly being incorrect. That
yells out arrogance to me, and to me it multiplies the value of your thoughts by
zero.
> >
> > My response:
> > You have it all wrong. When I said "I hope I have corrected your
observations," I was not saying that "to correct your position" but "your
observations of my position."
> >
> > You wrote:
> > Let me now go to the resurrection body.  We both believe that there is a
resurrection body, but we use different terms to describe the resurrection. 
Obviously, the resurrection body is not the same as our current corruptible
body, but does this mean there is no bodily resurrection? On the contrary, a
non-bodily resurrection would leave us spirit/souls without a body.
> >
> > My response:
> > Let me quote you: "Obviously, the resurrection body is not the same as our
current corruptible body, but does this mean there is no bodily resurrection?"
> >
> > But this has been the position that I have been saying all along. If it "is
not the same as our current corruptible body, then "it must be different." I
never denied that there is a resurrection body. What I denied is that it is
"biological" which by its nature is mortal.
> >
> > You wrote:
> > You mentioned that churches tickle itching ears with the teaching of a
bodily resurrection.  From my experience, those are a very small number. In
fact, there is probably one such church for every million white spermists who
are members of the NAACP, and likewise one such church for every million
vegetarians that eat Big Macs.  You seem to want to justify creating unnecessary
division.
> >
> > My response:
> > The belief in the physical-biological resurrection of king David has been
the motivating faith of so-called Zionist-Christians pushing to put the whole
Middle East under Christianized Jewish rule. The "Christianized" aspect, of
course, has no place in the Jewish dream. Jewish thought has always been
earth-bound. Jesus tried to correct that with "My kingdom is not of this world"
over which He is now reigning at the right hand of the Father over the kingdoms
of the world and over heaven. Since then,I believe, there is no injustice
inflicted by individuals on individuals and nation on nations will remain
unpunished.
> >
> > As a Christian, I find it a duty to bring that truth to the attention of lay
people who has no opportunity and resources to study the Bible seriously. And I
am simply trying to state the "truth" according to my understanding of the
Christian Faith and not creating division for division sake.
> >
> > You wrote:
> > As far as the rapture, don't forget that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 needs to be
considered, which talks about first the dead in Christ rising first and then
those alive being caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
> >
> > My response:
> > Please consider that Jesus and Paul were addressing all their messages to
their generation. If I were one of their contemporaries listening to them I
believe that their message was addressed to me and I expect that all they said
will be fulfilled in my own time. And for that, I am willing to give my life
preaching the same message as did the apostles and Paul. In a spiritual sense,
it is my position that all prophesies had been fulfilled since sometime in AD
70. Our failure to understand their spiritual fulfillment are making both Jesus
and Paul "false prophets." In the case of the First Resurrection, Revelation is
clear that "it is the souls that were raised from Sheol to life:"
> >
> > Rv 20:4-6: I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given
authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because
of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not
worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their
foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand
years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years
were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who
have part in the first resurrection. NIV
> >
> > Just because these are souls, does it mean they have no bodies? They must
have bodies as does Jesus. Otherwise how could they be seen sitting on heavenly
thrones. They must have been clothed with their "heavenly tents" that Paul
talked about.
> >
> > Now, will there ever be a "physical-biological resurrection" and resurrected
Christians ruling over non-Christians and non-elect Christians on earth? I do
not know. I will leave that to God. But I will not put that in my Biblical
Theology.
> >
> > You wrote:
> > You said the fact that this (the rapture?) has not occurred yet in 2,000
makes Christ a false teacher if we take it like futurists do.
> > Where did you get a stupid idea like that?  Just because it has not happened
yet mean they are not talking about a literal catching away.  After all, 2 Peter
3:1-9 deals with the fact that scoffers question His coming, that God's time is
not our time, and that the reason we think He's delaying is out of mercy to
allow more to come to Him.
> >
> > My response:
> > Now which idea is stupid? My faith that it has been fulfilled spiritually
supported by relevant historical facts and Biblical prophecies? Or teaching and
making people believe in and wait for "physical fulfillment" after almost two
thousand years of expectation? You be the judge.
> >
> > May God bless us alll.
> >
> > Isa
> > In Service to the Lay People of God
> >
> >
> > You wrote:
> > >
> > > I better get to other matters.
> >
> >
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "preachingjeff" <preachingjeff@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Isa,
> > >
> > > Sorry about the delay in responding.
> > >
> > > Let me deal with the end first.  I pointed out that those were my
observations, right or wrong.  Because I'm not perfect, it would be foolish to
believe I'm right about everything.  In fact, a person who admits he could be
wrong is more likely to be right than one who believes he's right.
> > >
> > > Your response is "I hope I have corrected your observations."  That
implies you are not admitting the possibility of you possibly being incorrect.
That yells out arrogance to me, and to me it multiplies the value of your
thoughts by zero.
> > >
> > > Let me now go to the resurrection body.  We both believe that there is a
resurrection body, but we use different terms to describe the resurrection. 
Obviously, the resurrection body is not the same as our current corruptible
body, but does this mean there is no bodily resurrection?  On the contrary, a
non-bodily resurrection would leave us spirit/souls without a body.
> > >
> > > You mentioned that churches tickle itching ears with the teaching of a
bodily resurrection.  From my experience, those are a very small number.  In
fact, there is probably one such church for every million white supremists who
are members of the NAACP, and likewise one such church for every million
vegetarians that eat Big Macs.  You seem to want to justify creating unnecessary
division.
> > >
> > > As far as the rapture, don't forget that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 needs to
be considered, which talks about first the dead in Christ rising first and then
those alive being caught up to meet the Lord in the air.  You said the fact that
this has not occurred yet in 2,000 makes Christ a false teacher if we take it
like futurists do.  Where did you get a stupid idea like that?  Just because it
has not happened yet mean they are not talking about a literal catching away. 
After all, 2 Peter 3:1-9 deals with the fact that scoffers question His coming,
that God's time is not our time, and that the reason we think He's delaying is
out of mercy to allow more to come to Him.
> > >
> > > I better get to other matters.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi, Jeff:
> > > >
> > > > You wrote:
> > > > Let me get to one issue here. Isa, why are you making such a big deal of
whether the resurrection is a physical body or a spiritual body? You are not
questioning the reality of a resurrection body. Why do you think you need to
make a big deal?
> > > >
> > > > My response:
> > > > I do not question a "resurrection body" for Jesus and for all those
spirits-souls who, while in their body of flesh, believed and obeyed Jesus so as
to be Him in heaven at the end of their earthly lives.
> > > >
> > > > 2 Co 5:1-5: "Now we know that if the earthly tent (body of flesh) we
live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house (immortal
heavenly body) in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan,
longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling (immortal heavenly body), 3
because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in
this tent  (body of flesh), we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to
be unclothed (upon the death of the body of flesh) but to be clothed with our
heavenly dwelling (immortal heavenly body), so that what is mortal  (body of
flesh) may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now it is God who has made us for this
very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to
come." (Parenthetical meanings supplied).
> > > >
> > > > But I do question a "resurrection body" that is "flesh and blood just
like we are" because it is definitely not Biblical but a creedal expression by
wishful writers/commentators who want immortality in their flesh.
> > > >
> > > > The NT and OT Bible writers were very careful not to create that
impression or to lead their readers to such a conclusion by NEVER using the
phrase "resurrection of the body" in all their writings. They used instead
"resurrection of the dead" or "resurrection from the dead" or "raised from the
dead" which unquestionably refers more correctly to the raising of the departed
spirit-souls from Sheol - the most dreaded dwelling place of disembodied but
conscious spirit-souls in "state of death."
> > > >
> > > > You wrote:
> > > > I can think of only two reasons why: 1) There is an element to your
theology that would be refuted by the resurrection body being physical, so
instead of plan A and admitting the theology is wrong you go with plan C of
making the Scripture fit your theology (plan B is to make plan A work and
destroy plan C because plan C
> > > > is error),
> > > >
> > > > My response:
> > > > On the contrary, my meticulous examination of Scriptures has led me to
conclude that it is the churches, their theologians, and pastors who have been
tickling the ears of their congregations by promising them "immortality in their
flesh," forcing Scriptures to fit their erroneous theological teachings.
> > > >
> > > > You wrote:
> > > > or 2) you just like to argue.
> > > >
> > > > My response:
> > > > For the sake of truth, yes, I like to argue for the truth. That is why I
am in this crusade to help enlighten lay people consider other possibilities
with Scriptural supports.  Professional preachers preach their interpretations
of Biblical verses or theology as "unquestionable truth" and never, never allow
their congregations to ask questions or raise opinions contrary to their
churches's doctrines. I have presented in my various posts a Biblical doctrine
on Death and Resurrection and I invite anyone and all to prove me in error based
on the Bible and not on creeds.
> > > >
> > > > You wrote:
> > > > I mentioned one concern you had not addressed, and that is the error of
Gnosticism which has crept into Christianity. That error is that the physical is
evil and the spiritual is good, rather than the fact that God created both the
physical AND the spiritual. Your line of thinking fits into the error of
> > > > Gnosticism, whether knowingly or unknowingly.
> > > >
> > > > My response:
> > > > I am not a gnostic and I condemn Gnosticism as being false. The body
cannot be basically evil or basically good but how the body is being used by the
"willful, envious, covetous, unsaved human spirit that has dominated the soul"
(Jas 4:1-6) determines its spiritual state as to being "good or evil." This is
clearly indicated in 2 Co 5:8-10.
> > > >
> > > > Jas 4:1-6:  What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come
from your desires that battle within you? 2 You want something but don't get it.
You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight.
You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive,
because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your
pleasures. 4 You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the
world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world
becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that
the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? NIV
> > > >
> > > > 2 Co 5:8-10: "So we (as spirits-souls) make it our goal to please him,
whether we (as spirits-souls) are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we
(spirits-souls) must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each
one (as spirit-soul) may receive what is due him (as spirit-soul) for the things
done while in the body, whether good or bad."
> > > >
> > > > Christians or believers do not do things "while in the body."  Only our
spirits-souls do.
> > > >
> > > > You wrote:
> > > > Your original post also showed you have a full preterist point of view,
meaning ALL prophecy is past tense (as of 70 AD) and that there are no
unfulfilled events including the Second Coming of Christ. If there is no bodily
resurrection, then there is no need for a rapture.
> > > >
> > > > My response:
> > > > Label is not material here. If the prophecies of Jesus and Paul have not
yet been fulfilled, the Bible remains a book of unfulfilled prophecies after
almost two thousand years and Jesus and Paul would have been appropriately
branded as false prophets as others did call them.
> > > >
> > > > Here is your rapture verses: : "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will
not all sleep, but we will all be changed� 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an
eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised
imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself
with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable
has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then
the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in
victory."
> > > >
> > > > Below are Jesus's statement that were paraphrased by Paul in your
so-called "rapture."  If the words of Jesus below have not yet been fulfilled
after almost two thousand years, then Jesus must really be a false prophet.
Preterists, full or partial, have vindicated Jesus and Paul by declaring, as
part of their understanding of prophecy and history that 1 Co 15:51-54, Jn
11:25-26, Jn 5:25-30 were fulfilled in Jesus's PAROUSIA sometime in 70 AD and in
the judgment on the Jews, as a nation, and on Jerusalem.
> > > >
> > > > Jn 11:25-26:  Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He
who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and
believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
> > > >
> > > > Jn 5:25-30:  I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come
when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will
live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to
have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is
the Son of Man.  28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who
are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out � those who have done
good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just,
for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
> > > >
> > > > You wrote:
> > > > These are my observations, right or wrong.
> > > >
> > > > My response:
> > > > I hope I have corrected your observations.
> > > >
> > > > May God bless us all.
> > > >
> > > > Isa
> > > > In Service to the Lay People of God
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hi, Jeff:

This is an addendum to my latest post to you.  Check this webpage: 
http://sites.google.com/site/911newworldorderfiles/quotesonzionism

It got lost in that post.

Isa
In Service to the Lay People of God
--------------



--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <preachingjeff@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Isa,
>
> This reply is long overdue, and not written due to time.
>
> First, you have not hurt my feelings.  I'm getting cynical in my on-line
encounters.  I'm dealing with someone in another group who comes across as
trying to correct my viewpoint on an issue, so I carried that over into this
discussion.  My apologies for doing so.
>
> Second, words can be tricky.  For example, a couple who minister to cults
point out that cultists use our same vocabulary but with a different meaning. 
THE OPPOSITE is true in this discussion, I believe:  I think, Isa, we're on the
same page, but the way we communicate that agreement sounds like disagreement.
>
> Here's one question.  If Adam and Eve did not fall, would they have died? 
Biblically, I see no evidence they would have died if they didn't sin.  Yet they
had biological bodies.  While post-fall biological bodies corrupt, those bodies
do not corrupt because they are biological.  Genesis 5 and Genesis 11 picture
this, when you look at the lifespans in these geneologies, and how they get
consistently smaller after the flood, until in Ps. 90 Moses (who lived to 120)
stated that man's life is 70 years.
>
> Let me put it this way.  I am in agreement with you, Isa, that the
resurrection body is incorruptible, instead of the corruptible one we're in now.
However, I see no evidence that the resurrection body is not biological. 
Likewise, I feel it is a physical body -- again, not corruptible like the ones
we have now.
>
> One area I disagree -- I have never heard anyone trying to put the entire
middle east under Jewish rule.  I have never heard anyone trying to overthrow
Jordan or Lebanon, or put a Christian government in Syria, Iraq, and Iran. 
However, I have no problem with Israel having control of the land they held
through history.  I do have a problem with those who want the entire middle east
-- including Israel -- to be under Islamic rule.  When Jordan controlled
Jerusalem, they promised not to let a Jew near the Wailing Wall.  Has Israel had
the same attitude toward the Dome of the Rock?
>
> By the way, when it talks about David reigning, one questions if it refers to
a resurrected David or to the Son of David, the Messiah, Jesus Christ when He
returns.
>
> Let me go to the final point for conclusion.  You mentioned the futurist view
is making people wait for the fulfillment.  First off, it is not inconsistent
with Scripture for the righteous to have faith in something they did not see. 
Such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph who never saw the fulfillment of the
promise but believed it.  Second, we can only speculate what life after death is
like as far as time.  We have no indication that those who have passed on have
any awareness of time.  Plus, name the individual who has waited 2,000 years for
the fulfillment.
>
> Hope this helps.  Have a blessed day.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi, Jeff:
> >
> > Sorry if I hurt your feelings. That was never my intention. I am here on a
serious study of the Bible with the group. Now, back to our dicussions.
> >
> > You wrote:
> > Let me deal with the end first.  I pointed out that those were my
observations, right or wrong.  Because I'm not perfect, it would be foolish to
believe I'm right about everything.  In fact, a person who admits he could be
wrong is more likely to be right than one who believes he's right.
> >
> > Your response is "I hope I have corrected your observations."  That implies
you are not admitting the possibility of you possibly being incorrect. That
yells out arrogance to me, and to me it multiplies the value of your thoughts by
zero.
> >
> > My response:
> > You have it all wrong. When I said "I hope I have corrected your
observations," I was not saying that "to correct your position" but "your
observations of my position."
> >
> > You wrote:
> > Let me now go to the resurrection body.  We both believe that there is a
resurrection body, but we use different terms to describe the resurrection. 
Obviously, the resurrection body is not the same as our current corruptible
body, but does this mean there is no bodily resurrection? On the contrary, a
non-bodily resurrection would leave us spirit/souls without a body.
> >
> > My response:
> > Let me quote you: "Obviously, the resurrection body is not the same as our
current corruptible body, but does this mean there is no bodily resurrection?"
> >
> > But this has been the position that I have been saying all along. If it "is
not the same as our current corruptible body, then "it must be different." I
never denied that there is a resurrection body. What I denied is that it is
"biological" which by its nature is mortal.
> >
> > You wrote:
> > You mentioned that churches tickle itching ears with the teaching of a
bodily resurrection.  From my experience, those are a very small number. In
fact, there is probably one such church for every million white spermists who
are members of the NAACP, and likewise one such church for every million
vegetarians that eat Big Macs.  You seem to want to justify creating unnecessary
division.
> >
> > My response:
> > The belief in the physical-biological resurrection of king David has been
the motivating faith of so-called Zionist-Christians pushing to put the whole
Middle East under Christianized Jewish rule. The "Christianized" aspect, of
course, has no place in the Jewish dream. Jewish thought has always been
earth-bound. Jesus tried to correct that with "My kingdom is not of this world"
over which He is now reigning at the right hand of the Father over the kingdoms
of the world and over heaven. Since then,I believe, there is no injustice
inflicted by individuals on individuals and nation on nations will remain
unpunished.
> >
> > As a Christian, I find it a duty to bring that truth to the attention of lay
people who has no opportunity and resources to study the Bible seriously. And I
am simply trying to state the "truth" according to my understanding of the
Christian Faith and not creating division for division sake.
> >
> > You wrote:
> > As far as the rapture, don't forget that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 needs to be
considered, which talks about first the dead in Christ rising first and then
those alive being caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
> >
> > My response:
> > Please consider that Jesus and Paul were addressing all their messages to
their generation. If I were one of their contemporaries listening to them I
believe that their message was addressed to me and I expect that all they said
will be fulfilled in my own time. And for that, I am willing to give my life
preaching the same message as did the apostles and Paul. In a spiritual sense,
it is my position that all prophesies had been fulfilled since sometime in AD
70. Our failure to understand their spiritual fulfillment are making both Jesus
and Paul "false prophets." In the case of the First Resurrection, Revelation is
clear that "it is the souls that were raised from Sheol to life:"
> >
> > Rv 20:4-6: I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given
authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because
of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not
worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their
foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand
years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years
were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who
have part in the first resurrection. NIV
> >
> > Just because these are souls, does it mean they have no bodies? They must
have bodies as does Jesus. Otherwise how could they be seen sitting on heavenly
thrones. They must have been clothed with their "heavenly tents" that Paul
talked about.
> >
> > Now, will there ever be a "physical-biological resurrection" and resurrected
Christians ruling over non-Christians and non-elect Christians on earth? I do
not know. I will leave that to God. But I will not put that in my Biblical
Theology.
> >
> > You wrote:
> > You said the fact that this (the rapture?) has not occurred yet in 2,000
makes Christ a false teacher if we take it like futurists do.
> > Where did you get a stupid idea like that?  Just because it has not happened
yet mean they are not talking about a literal catching away.  After all, 2 Peter
3:1-9 deals with the fact that scoffers question His coming, that God's time is
not our time, and that the reason we think He's delaying is out of mercy to
allow more to come to Him.
> >
> > My response:
> > Now which idea is stupid? My faith that it has been fulfilled spiritually
supported by relevant historical facts and Biblical prophecies? Or teaching and
making people believe in and wait for "physical fulfillment" after almost two
thousand years of expectation? You be the judge.
> >
> > May God bless us alll.
> >
> > Isa
> > In Service to the Lay People of God
> >
> >
> > You wrote:
> > >
> > > I better get to other matters.
> >
> >
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "preachingjeff" <preachingjeff@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Isa,
> > >
> > > Sorry about the delay in responding.
> > >
> > > Let me deal with the end first.  I pointed out that those were my
observations, right or wrong.  Because I'm not perfect, it would be foolish to
believe I'm right about everything.  In fact, a person who admits he could be
wrong is more likely to be right than one who believes he's right.
> > >
> > > Your response is "I hope I have corrected your observations."  That
implies you are not admitting the possibility of you possibly being incorrect.
That yells out arrogance to me, and to me it multiplies the value of your
thoughts by zero.
> > >
> > > Let me now go to the resurrection body.  We both believe that there is a
resurrection body, but we use different terms to describe the resurrection. 
Obviously, the resurrection body is not the same as our current corruptible
body, but does this mean there is no bodily resurrection?  On the contrary, a
non-bodily resurrection would leave us spirit/souls without a body.
> > >
> > > You mentioned that churches tickle itching ears with the teaching of a
bodily resurrection.  From my experience, those are a very small number.  In
fact, there is probably one such church for every million white supremists who
are members of the NAACP, and likewise one such church for every million
vegetarians that eat Big Macs.  You seem to want to justify creating unnecessary
division.
> > >
> > > As far as the rapture, don't forget that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 needs to
be considered, which talks about first the dead in Christ rising first and then
those alive being caught up to meet the Lord in the air.  You said the fact that
this has not occurred yet in 2,000 makes Christ a false teacher if we take it
like futurists do.  Where did you get a stupid idea like that?  Just because it
has not happened yet mean they are not talking about a literal catching away. 
After all, 2 Peter 3:1-9 deals with the fact that scoffers question His coming,
that God's time is not our time, and that the reason we think He's delaying is
out of mercy to allow more to come to Him.
> > >
> > > I better get to other matters.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi, Jeff:
> > > >
> > > > You wrote:
> > > > Let me get to one issue here. Isa, why are you making such a big deal of
whether the resurrection is a physical body or a spiritual body? You are not
questioning the reality of a resurrection body. Why do you think you need to
make a big deal?
> > > >
> > > > My response:
> > > > I do not question a "resurrection body" for Jesus and for all those
spirits-souls who, while in their body of flesh, believed and obeyed Jesus so as
to be Him in heaven at the end of their earthly lives.
> > > >
> > > > 2 Co 5:1-5: "Now we know that if the earthly tent (body of flesh) we
live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house (immortal
heavenly body) in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan,
longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling (immortal heavenly body), 3
because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in
this tent  (body of flesh), we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to
be unclothed (upon the death of the body of flesh) but to be clothed with our
heavenly dwelling (immortal heavenly body), so that what is mortal  (body of
flesh) may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now it is God who has made us for this
very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to
come." (Parenthetical meanings supplied).
> > > >
> > > > But I do question a "resurrection body" that is "flesh and blood just
like we are" because it is definitely not Biblical but a creedal expression by
wishful writers/commentators who want immortality in their flesh.
> > > >
> > > > The NT and OT Bible writers were very careful not to create that
impression or to lead their readers to such a conclusion by NEVER using the
phrase "resurrection of the body" in all their writings. They used instead
"resurrection of the dead" or "resurrection from the dead" or "raised from the
dead" which unquestionably refers more correctly to the raising of the departed
spirit-souls from Sheol - the most dreaded dwelling place of disembodied but
conscious spirit-souls in "state of death."
> > > >
> > > > You wrote:
> > > > I can think of only two reasons why: 1) There is an element to your
theology that would be refuted by the resurrection body being physical, so
instead of plan A and admitting the theology is wrong you go with plan C of
making the Scripture fit your theology (plan B is to make plan A work and
destroy plan C because plan C
> > > > is error),
> > > >
> > > > My response:
> > > > On the contrary, my meticulous examination of Scriptures has led me to
conclude that it is the churches, their theologians, and pastors who have been
tickling the ears of their congregations by promising them "immortality in their
flesh," forcing Scriptures to fit their erroneous theological teachings.
> > > >
> > > > You wrote:
> > > > or 2) you just like to argue.
> > > >
> > > > My response:
> > > > For the sake of truth, yes, I like to argue for the truth. That is why I
am in this crusade to help enlighten lay people consider other possibilities
with Scriptural supports.  Professional preachers preach their interpretations
of Biblical verses or theology as "unquestionable truth" and never, never allow
their congregations to ask questions or raise opinions contrary to their
churches's doctrines. I have presented in my various posts a Biblical doctrine
on Death and Resurrection and I invite anyone and all to prove me in error based
on the Bible and not on creeds.
> > > >
> > > > You wrote:
> > > > I mentioned one concern you had not addressed, and that is the error of
Gnosticism which has crept into Christianity. That error is that the physical is
evil and the spiritual is good, rather than the fact that God created both the
physical AND the spiritual. Your line of thinking fits into the error of
> > > > Gnosticism, whether knowingly or unknowingly.
> > > >
> > > > My response:
> > > > I am not a gnostic and I condemn Gnosticism as being false. The body
cannot be basically evil or basically good but how the body is being used by the
"willful, envious, covetous, unsaved human spirit that has dominated the soul"
(Jas 4:1-6) determines its spiritual state as to being "good or evil." This is
clearly indicated in 2 Co 5:8-10.
> > > >
> > > > Jas 4:1-6:  What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come
from your desires that battle within you? 2 You want something but don't get it.
You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight.
You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive,
because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your
pleasures. 4 You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the
world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world
becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that
the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? NIV
> > > >
> > > > 2 Co 5:8-10: "So we (as spirits-souls) make it our goal to please him,
whether we (as spirits-souls) are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we
(spirits-souls) must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each
one (as spirit-soul) may receive what is due him (as spirit-soul) for the things
done while in the body, whether good or bad."
> > > >
> > > > Christians or believers do not do things "while in the body."  Only our
spirits-souls do.
> > > >
> > > > You wrote:
> > > > Your original post also showed you have a full preterist point of view,
meaning ALL prophecy is past tense (as of 70 AD) and that there are no
unfulfilled events including the Second Coming of Christ. If there is no bodily
resurrection, then there is no need for a rapture.
> > > >
> > > > My response:
> > > > Label is not material here. If the prophecies of Jesus and Paul have not
yet been fulfilled, the Bible remains a book of unfulfilled prophecies after
almost two thousand years and Jesus and Paul would have been appropriately
branded as false prophets as others did call them.
> > > >
> > > > Here is your rapture verses: : "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will
not all sleep, but we will all be changed� 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an
eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised
imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself
with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable
has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then
the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in
victory."
> > > >
> > > > Below are Jesus's statement that were paraphrased by Paul in your
so-called "rapture."  If the words of Jesus below have not yet been fulfilled
after almost two thousand years, then Jesus must really be a false prophet.
Preterists, full or partial, have vindicated Jesus and Paul by declaring, as
part of their understanding of prophecy and history that 1 Co 15:51-54, Jn
11:25-26, Jn 5:25-30 were fulfilled in Jesus's PAROUSIA sometime in 70 AD and in
the judgment on the Jews, as a nation, and on Jerusalem.
> > > >
> > > > Jn 11:25-26:  Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He
who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and
believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
> > > >
> > > > Jn 5:25-30:  I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come
when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will
live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to
have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is
the Son of Man.  28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who
are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out � those who have done
good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just,
for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
> > > >
> > > > You wrote:
> > > > These are my observations, right or wrong.
> > > >
> > > > My response:
> > > > I hope I have corrected your observations.
> > > >
> > > > May God bless us all.
> > > >
> > > > Isa
> > > > In Service to the Lay People of God
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Isa,

You said Zionism is a problem, but there are worse problems.  In fact, I can
make Zionism ten times more dangerous (at least) in three small steps.  The
first step is to write down the form of the indefinite article that precedes a
word starting with a vowel.  The second step is to follow that, without a space,
by the seventh note of the do-re-mi scale, which the song says one drinks with
jam and bread.  The third is to put a dash after the four letters you had
written down and insert it in front of Zionism, transforming it into the much
greater evil of anti-Zionism.

First, in my observation and reading of the contemporary Israel, one needs to
realize that Jews were in the area before the creation of the state of Israel. 
I see a nation that started small, and gained territory through bucking the odds
in defensive wars.  We need to remember that most Arabs think that part of what
is now Israel should be given to the Palestinians, and the Israelis portion
should have as the eastern border the Mederterainian coast.

I do not see a move to reclaim all land promised under the Abrahamic Covenant to
the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  Military moves by Israel seem
bent not on gaining land but removing their enemies that pose a threat to
Israel.  But some idiots want to deny Israel the right to be a sovereign nation,
to insist they give up land to people dedicated to destroying Israel.

Did you remember that Israel's water supply is in view from the Golan Heights? 
Do you remember that Syria, who occupied the Golan Heights, used that strategic
portion of land to fire upon Israelis when they tried to access their water
supply?  Do you think Syria will return to that evil activity if Israel gives
the Golan Heights back to them?

Is there a problem with Israel having control of their most holy site
(Jerusalem)?  Some say no, while those who disagree are probably sitting all
afternoon facing east and wondering why they don't see the sunset, so they turn
west to catch the sunrise.  You see, there are three options:  1) Let Israel
have control; 2) turn it to the Arabs who will deny Israel access to the Wailing
Wall and probably destroy the Jewish quarter as they did in '48 (dumb idea), or
3) let the UN have control, remembering that the nations that want to destroy
Israel, take turns on the security council of the UN, just like any other nation
with the sole exception of Israel.  (Sounds like only 1 shows respect and
concern for Israel.)


But Biblically, we need to remember Jeremiah 31:35-37.  Look it up yourself. 
This immediately follows the New Covenant portion, and thus should be taken just
as literally as Jer. 31:31-34.

--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Jeff,
>
> I am glad all is well between us. I too believe that "we're on the same page,
but the way we communicate that agreement sounds like disagreement."
>
> You wrote:
> Here's one question.  If Adam and Eve did not fall, would they have died? 
Biblically, I see no evidence they would have died if they didn't sin.  Yet they
had biological bodies.  While post-fall biological bodies corrupt, those bodies
do not corrupt because they are biological.  Genesis 5 and Genesis 11 picture
this, when you look at the life spans in these genealogies, and how they get
consistently smaller after the flood, until in Ps. 90 Moses (who lived to 120)
stated that man's life is 70 years.
>
> My response:
> I believe that the Bible tells us that the "pre-fall" biological bodies of
Adam and Eve were also subject to biological death without God's intervention.
The reason is that "these bodies need sustenance from outside themselves - that
is food." And as long as there is physiological activities, there will always be
the "wearing out" and aging.  Thus, God planted the "tree of life" in the middle
of the garden for the biological, mortal bodies' future transformation into
"immortal bodies," in God's own time, in the form of human bodies. Otherwise,
there would be no reason why God had that "tree of life" in the garden. The tree
of life symbolizes "eventual death" of the biological body, whether he/she
sinned or not, and "future immortality" back to God of the man's soul in human
form. Thus:
>
> Ge 3:21-24: And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us,
knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take
also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God
banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been
taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden
of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to
the tree of life. NIV
>
> You wrote:
> Let me put it this way.  I am in agreement with you, Isa, that the
resurrection body is incorruptible, instead of the corruptible one we're in now.
However, I see no evidence that the resurrection body is not biological. 
Likewise, I feel it is a physical body -- again, not corruptible like the ones
we have now.
>
> My response:
> "Physicality" is relative.  To the spirits, we are not "physical" because they
can pass through our bodies, not our bodies passing through theirs; to us, the
spirits had no physical bodies by our definition of "spirits." For one spirit to
another, they are as physically endued as we are to one another. Here again, we
have to have the same reference - spiritual bodies in the spirit world,
biological bodies to the biological world. To their respective world, these
bodies are "physical" meaning "solid." Otherwise, the spirits will not be
distinguishable one from another. Consider what Jesus said about the Father:
>
> Mt 18:10:  10 "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For
I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in
heaven. NIV
>
> You wrote:
> One area I disagree -- I have never heard anyone trying to put the entire
middle east under Jewish rule.  I have never heard anyone trying to overthrow
Jordan or Lebanon, or put a Christian government in Syria, Iraq, and Iran. 
However, I have no problem with Israel having control of the land they held
through history.  I do have a problem with those who want the entire middle east
-- including Israel -- to be under Islamic rule.  When Jordan controlled
Jerusalem, they promised not to let a Jew near the Wailing Wall.  Has Israel had
the same attitude toward the Dome of the Rock?
>
> My response:
> Zionist Christians are Christian churches that believe and support the
eventual political control by the Jews, with Jerusalem as the seat of the
government of national Israel, of the full extent of "the promised land." They
are unwitting tools of Zionism.  But this is a difficult issue.  So, let me
refer you to the webpage: 
http://sites.google.com/site/911newworldorderfiles/quotesonzionism.  Check also
Zionism in the internet.
>
> You wrote:
> By the way, when it talks about David reigning, one questions if it refers to
a resurrected David or to the Son of David, the Messiah, Jesus Christ when He
returns.
>
> My response:
> 1 Ch 17:10-14 should answer your question:  "'I declare to you that the Lord
will build a house for you: 11 When your days are over and you go to be with
your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, one of your own
sons, and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He is the one who will build a house
for me, and I will establish his throne forever. 13 I will be his father, and he
will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from
your predecessor. 14 I will set him over my house and my kingdom forever; his
throne will be established forever.'"  NIV
>
> It is NOT to David but to his offspring to whom God promised an eternal
kingdom, first referring to Solomon and Solomon's earthly kingdom on whom God
"will establish his (note "his" or Solomon's) throne forever"  (verses 10-13). 
Then note the shift from "his = Solomon's" to "my = God's" in verse 14: "I will
set him over my house and my kingdom forever; his throne will be established
forever."  Verse 14 anticipated the failure of Solomon to deserve an "eternal
kingdom," thus the shift to the "eternal kingdom in heaven" of the resurrected
Jesus - God's Messiah - now ruling over heaven and earth until God shall have
put "all His enemies as a footstool for your feet.".
>
> Teaching a physical reign of Jesus in earthly Jerusalem is not Biblical and
opens the world to the Zionist plot to rule the world, using Zionist money to
subvert all governments on earth by burying them in DEBTS, with one law for the
Jews and another for the Gentiles
(.http://www.takebackourrights.org/docs/noahidelaw.html).  Do you know that the
Talmud allows Jews to have sex with three (3)-year olds?
>
> You wrote:
> Let me go to the final point for conclusion.  You mentioned the futurist view
is making people wait for the fulfillment.  First off, it is not inconsistent
with Scripture for the righteous to have faith in something they did not see. 
Such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph who never saw the fulfillment of the
promise but believed it.  Second, we can only speculate what life after death is
like as far as time.  We have no indication that those who have passed on have
any awareness of time.  Plus, name the individual who has waited 2,000 years for
the fulfillment.
>
> My response:
> You wrote: "We have no indication that those who have passed on have any
awareness of time."
> To this, I give you Rv 6:9-11:  When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the
altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the
testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long,
Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and
avenge our blood?" 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were
told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and
brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.  To ask "How
long. . . until you judge. . ." is proof that the dead in Christ are aware of
time.
>
> May God bless us all.
>
> Isa
> In Service to the People of God
>
> ------------------------
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <preachingjeff@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Isa,
> >
> > This reply is long overdue, and not written due to time.
> >
> > First, you have not hurt my feelings.  I'm getting cynical in my on-line
encounters.  I'm dealing with someone in another group who comes across as
trying to correct my viewpoint on an issue, so I carried that over into this
discussion.  My apologies for doing so.
> >
> > Second, words can be tricky.  For example, a couple who minister to cults
point out that cultists use our same vocabulary but with a different meaning. 
THE OPPOSITE is true in this discussion, I believe:  I think, Isa, we're on the
same page, but the way we communicate that agreement sounds like disagreement.
> >
> > Here's one question.  If Adam and Eve did not fall, would they have died? 
Biblically, I see no evidence they would have died if they didn't sin.  Yet they
had biological bodies.  While post-fall biological bodies corrupt, those bodies
do not corrupt because they are biological.  Genesis 5 and Genesis 11 picture
this, when you look at the lifespans in these geneologies, and how they get
consistently smaller after the flood, until in Ps. 90 Moses (who lived to 120)
stated that man's life is 70 years.
> >
> > Let me put it this way.  I am in agreement with you, Isa, that the
resurrection body is incorruptible, instead of the corruptible one we're in now.
However, I see no evidence that the resurrection body is not biological. 
Likewise, I feel it is a physical body -- again, not corruptible like the ones
we have now.
> >
> > One area I disagree -- I have never heard anyone trying to put the entire
middle east under Jewish rule.  I have never heard anyone trying to overthrow
Jordan or Lebanon, or put a Christian government in Syria, Iraq, and Iran. 
However, I have no problem with Israel having control of the land they held
through history.  I do have a problem with those who want the entire middle east
-- including Israel -- to be under Islamic rule.  When Jordan controlled
Jerusalem, they promised not to let a Jew near the Wailing Wall.  Has Israel had
the same attitude toward the Dome of the Rock?
> >
> > By the way, when it talks about David reigning, one questions if it refers
to a resurrected David or to the Son of David, the Messiah, Jesus Christ when He
returns.
> >
> > Let me go to the final point for conclusion.  You mentioned the futurist
view is making people wait for the fulfillment.  First off, it is not
inconsistent with Scripture for the righteous to have faith in something they
did not see.  Such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph who never saw the
fulfillment of the promise but believed it.  Second, we can only speculate what
life after death is like as far as time.  We have no indication that those who
have passed on have any awareness of time.  Plus, name the individual who has
waited 2,000 years for the fulfillment.
> >
> > Hope this helps.  Have a blessed day.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi, Jeff:
> > >
> > > Sorry if I hurt your feelings. That was never my intention. I am here on a
serious study of the Bible with the group. Now, back to our dicussions.
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > > Let me deal with the end first.  I pointed out that those were my
observations, right or wrong.  Because I'm not perfect, it would be foolish to
believe I'm right about everything.  In fact, a person who admits he could be
wrong is more likely to be right than one who believes he's right.
> > >
> > > Your response is "I hope I have corrected your observations."  That
implies you are not admitting the possibility of you possibly being incorrect.
That yells out arrogance to me, and to me it multiplies the value of your
thoughts by zero.
> > >
> > > My response:
> > > You have it all wrong. When I said "I hope I have corrected your
observations," I was not saying that "to correct your position" but "your
observations of my position."
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > > Let me now go to the resurrection body.  We both believe that there is a
resurrection body, but we use different terms to describe the resurrection. 
Obviously, the resurrection body is not the same as our current corruptible
body, but does this mean there is no bodily resurrection? On the contrary, a
non-bodily resurrection would leave us spirit/souls without a body.
> > >
> > > My response:
> > > Let me quote you: "Obviously, the resurrection body is not the same as our
current corruptible body, but does this mean there is no bodily resurrection?"
> > >
> > > But this has been the position that I have been saying all along. If it
"is not the same as our current corruptible body, then "it must be different." I
never denied that there is a resurrection body. What I denied is that it is
"biological" which by its nature is mortal.
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > > You mentioned that churches tickle itching ears with the teaching of a
bodily resurrection.  From my experience, those are a very small number. In
fact, there is probably one such church for every million white spermists who
are members of the NAACP, and likewise one such church for every million
vegetarians that eat Big Macs.  You seem to want to justify creating unnecessary
division.
> > >
> > > My response:
> > > The belief in the physical-biological resurrection of king David has been
the motivating faith of so-called Zionist-Christians pushing to put the whole
Middle East under Christianized Jewish rule. The "Christianized" aspect, of
course, has no place in the Jewish dream. Jewish thought has always been
earth-bound. Jesus tried to correct that with "My kingdom is not of this world"
over which He is now reigning at the right hand of the Father over the kingdoms
of the world and over heaven. Since then,I believe, there is no injustice
inflicted by individuals on individuals and nation on nations will remain
unpunished.
> > >
> > > As a Christian, I find it a duty to bring that truth to the attention of
lay people who has no opportunity and resources to study the Bible seriously.
And I am simply trying to state the "truth" according to my understanding of the
Christian Faith and not creating division for division sake.
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > > As far as the rapture, don't forget that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 needs to
be considered, which talks about first the dead in Christ rising first and then
those alive being caught up to meet the Lord in the air.
> > >
> > > My response:
> > > Please consider that Jesus and Paul were addressing all their messages to
their generation. If I were one of their contemporaries listening to them I
believe that their message was addressed to me and I expect that all they said
will be fulfilled in my own time. And for that, I am willing to give my life
preaching the same message as did the apostles and Paul. In a spiritual sense,
it is my position that all prophesies had been fulfilled since sometime in AD
70. Our failure to understand their spiritual fulfillment are making both Jesus
and Paul "false prophets." In the case of the First Resurrection, Revelation is
clear that "it is the souls that were raised from Sheol to life:"
> > >
> > > Rv 20:4-6: I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given
authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because
of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not
worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their
foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand
years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years
were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who
have part in the first resurrection. NIV
> > >
> > > Just because these are souls, does it mean they have no bodies? They must
have bodies as does Jesus. Otherwise how could they be seen sitting on heavenly
thrones. They must have been clothed with their "heavenly tents" that Paul
talked about.
> > >
> > > Now, will there ever be a "physical-biological resurrection" and
resurrected Christians ruling over non-Christians and non-elect Christians on
earth? I do not know. I will leave that to God. But I will not put that in my
Biblical Theology.
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > > You said the fact that this (the rapture?) has not occurred yet in 2,000
makes Christ a false teacher if we take it like futurists do.
> > > Where did you get a stupid idea like that?  Just because it has not
happened yet mean they are not talking about a literal catching away.  After
all, 2 Peter 3:1-9 deals with the fact that scoffers question His coming, that
God's time is not our time, and that the reason we think He's delaying is out of
mercy to allow more to come to Him.
> > >
> > > My response:
> > > Now which idea is stupid? My faith that it has been fulfilled spiritually
supported by relevant historical facts and Biblical prophecies? Or teaching and
making people believe in and wait for "physical fulfillment" after almost two
thousand years of expectation? You be the judge.
> > >
> > > May God bless us alll.
> > >
> > > Isa
> > > In Service to the Lay People of God
> > >
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I better get to other matters.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "preachingjeff"
<preachingjeff@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Isa,
> > > >
> > > > Sorry about the delay in responding.
> > > >
> > > > Let me deal with the end first.  I pointed out that those were my
observations, right or wrong.  Because I'm not perfect, it would be foolish to
believe I'm right about everything.  In fact, a person who admits he could be
wrong is more likely to be right than one who believes he's right.
> > > >
> > > > Your response is "I hope I have corrected your observations."  That
implies you are not admitting the possibility of you possibly being incorrect.
That yells out arrogance to me, and to me it multiplies the value of your
thoughts by zero.
> > > >
> > > > Let me now go to the resurrection body.  We both believe that there is a
resurrection body, but we use different terms to describe the resurrection. 
Obviously, the resurrection body is not the same as our current corruptible
body, but does this mean there is no bodily resurrection?  On the contrary, a
non-bodily resurrection would leave us spirit/souls without a body.
> > > >
> > > > You mentioned that churches tickle itching ears with the teaching of a
bodily resurrection.  From my experience, those are a very small number.  In
fact, there is probably one such church for every million white supremists who
are members of the NAACP, and likewise one such church for every million
vegetarians that eat Big Macs.  You seem to want to justify creating unnecessary
division.
> > > >
> > > > As far as the rapture, don't forget that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 needs
to be considered, which talks about first the dead in Christ rising first and
then those alive being caught up to meet the Lord in the air.  You said the fact
that this has not occurred yet in 2,000 makes Christ a false teacher if we take
it like futurists do.  Where did you get a stupid idea like that?  Just because
it has not happened yet mean they are not talking about a literal catching away.
After all, 2 Peter 3:1-9 deals with the fact that scoffers question His coming,
that God's time is not our time, and that the reason we think He's delaying is
out of mercy to allow more to come to Him.
> > > >
> > > > I better get to other matters.
> > > >
> > > > Jeff
> > > >
> > > > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi, Jeff:
> > > > >
> > > > > You wrote:
> > > > > Let me get to one issue here. Isa, why are you making such a big deal
of whether the resurrection is a physical body or a spiritual body? You are not
questioning the reality of a resurrection body. Why do you think you need to
make a big deal?
> > > > >
> > > > > My response:
> > > > > I do not question a "resurrection body" for Jesus and for all those
spirits-souls who, while in their body of flesh, believed and obeyed Jesus so as
to be Him in heaven at the end of their earthly lives.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2 Co 5:1-5: "Now we know that if the earthly tent (body of flesh) we
live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house (immortal
heavenly body) in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan,
longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling (immortal heavenly body), 3
because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in
this tent  (body of flesh), we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to
be unclothed (upon the death of the body of flesh) but to be clothed with our
heavenly dwelling (immortal heavenly body), so that what is mortal  (body of
flesh) may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now it is God who has made us for this
very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to
come." (Parenthetical meanings supplied).
> > > > >
> > > > > But I do question a "resurrection body" that is "flesh and blood just
like we are" because it is definitely not Biblical but a creedal expression by
wishful writers/commentators who want immortality in their flesh.
> > > > >
> > > > > The NT and OT Bible writers were very careful not to create that
impression or to lead their readers to such a conclusion by NEVER using the
phrase "resurrection of the body" in all their writings. They used instead
"resurrection of the dead" or "resurrection from the dead" or "raised from the
dead" which unquestionably refers more correctly to the raising of the departed
spirit-souls from Sheol - the most dreaded dwelling place of disembodied but
conscious spirit-souls in "state of death."
> > > > >
> > > > > You wrote:
> > > > > I can think of only two reasons why: 1) There is an element to your
theology that would be refuted by the resurrection body being physical, so
instead of plan A and admitting the theology is wrong you go with plan C of
making the Scripture fit your theology (plan B is to make plan A work and
destroy plan C because plan C
> > > > > is error),
> > > > >
> > > > > My response:
> > > > > On the contrary, my meticulous examination of Scriptures has led me to
conclude that it is the churches, their theologians, and pastors who have been
tickling the ears of their congregations by promising them "immortality in their
flesh," forcing Scriptures to fit their erroneous theological teachings.
> > > > >
> > > > > You wrote:
> > > > > or 2) you just like to argue.
> > > > >
> > > > > My response:
> > > > > For the sake of truth, yes, I like to argue for the truth. That is why
I am in this crusade to help enlighten lay people consider other possibilities
with Scriptural supports.  Professional preachers preach their interpretations
of Biblical verses or theology as "unquestionable truth" and never, never allow
their congregations to ask questions or raise opinions contrary to their
churches's doctrines. I have presented in my various posts a Biblical doctrine
on Death and Resurrection and I invite anyone and all to prove me in error based
on the Bible and not on creeds.
> > > > >
> > > > > You wrote:
> > > > > I mentioned one concern you had not addressed, and that is the error
of Gnosticism which has crept into Christianity. That error is that the physical
is evil and the spiritual is good, rather than the fact that God created both
the physical AND the spiritual. Your line of thinking fits into the error of
> > > > > Gnosticism, whether knowingly or unknowingly.
> > > > >
> > > > > My response:
> > > > > I am not a gnostic and I condemn Gnosticism as being false. The body
cannot be basically evil or basically good but how the body is being used by the
"willful, envious, covetous, unsaved human spirit that has dominated the soul"
(Jas 4:1-6) determines its spiritual state as to being "good or evil." This is
clearly indicated in 2 Co 5:8-10.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jas 4:1-6:  What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come
from your desires that battle within you? 2 You want something but don't get it.
You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight.
You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive,
because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your
pleasures. 4 You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the
world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world
becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that
the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? NIV
> > > > >
> > > > > 2 Co 5:8-10: "So we (as spirits-souls) make it our goal to please him,
whether we (as spirits-souls) are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we
(spirits-souls) must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each
one (as spirit-soul) may receive what is due him (as spirit-soul) for the things
done while in the body, whether good or bad."
> > > > >
> > > > > Christians or believers do not do things "while in the body."  Only
our spirits-souls do.
> > > > >
> > > > > You wrote:
> > > > > Your original post also showed you have a full preterist point of
view, meaning ALL prophecy is past tense (as of 70 AD) and that there are no
unfulfilled events including the Second Coming of Christ. If there is no bodily
resurrection, then there is no need for a rapture.
> > > > >
> > > > > My response:
> > > > > Label is not material here. If the prophecies of Jesus and Paul have
not yet been fulfilled, the Bible remains a book of unfulfilled prophecies after
almost two thousand years and Jesus and Paul would have been appropriately
branded as false prophets as others did call them.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is your rapture verses: : "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will
not all sleep, but we will all be changed� 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an
eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised
imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself
with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable
has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then
the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in
victory."
> > > > >
> > > > > Below are Jesus's statement that were paraphrased by Paul in your
so-called "rapture."  If the words of Jesus below have not yet been fulfilled
after almost two thousand years, then Jesus must really be a false prophet.
Preterists, full or partial, have vindicated Jesus and Paul by declaring, as
part of their understanding of prophecy and history that 1 Co 15:51-54, Jn
11:25-26, Jn 5:25-30 were fulfilled in Jesus's PAROUSIA sometime in 70 AD and in
the judgment on the Jews, as a nation, and on Jerusalem.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jn 11:25-26:  Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life.
He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and
believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
> > > > >
> > > > > Jn 5:25-30:  I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come
when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will
live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to
have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is
the Son of Man.  28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who
are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out � those who have done
good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just,
for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
> > > > >
> > > > > You wrote:
> > > > > These are my observations, right or wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > My response:
> > > > > I hope I have corrected your observations.
> > > > >
> > > > > May God bless us all.
> > > > >
> > > > > Isa
> > > > > In Service to the Lay People of God
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

I'm replying to your post, Isa, in two parts.  The first part deals with the
subject you've started dealing with, but I see that we're about to enter a
different topic.

I want to comment again that there is not much disagreement on the subject
except for our terminology.  I do want to say that I firmly believe physical
death followed the fall, as it says in Romans 5:12, that death (including though
not limited to physical death) followed sin.  No, I don't understand why the
Tree of Life was in the garden other than that.

I will again state that your emphasis on this seemed to be going one of two
directions.  I had (past tense) thought that this might be a Gnostic thought,
because it sounded like the Gnostic view that the spiritual was good and the
physical was evil.  In reading on, though, I realize, Isa, that this is NOT
where you're coming from.

The other direction was more accurate.  I had also thought that your line of
thought was more in reaction against a futurist, pre-millennial view, and it
seems that there is at least an indirect connection between the two.

And since the discussion has changed directions from a symptom subject to the
cause subject (my wording), I will finish replying to this with a fresh subject
line.

Jeff

--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Jeff,
>
> I am glad all is well between us. I too believe that "we're on the same page,
but the way we communicate that agreement sounds like disagreement."
>
> You wrote:
> Here's one question.  If Adam and Eve did not fall, would they have died? 
Biblically, I see no evidence they would have died if they didn't sin.  Yet they
had biological bodies.  While post-fall biological bodies corrupt, those bodies
do not corrupt because they are biological.  Genesis 5 and Genesis 11 picture
this, when you look at the life spans in these genealogies, and how they get
consistently smaller after the flood, until in Ps. 90 Moses (who lived to 120)
stated that man's life is 70 years.
>
> My response:
> I believe that the Bible tells us that the "pre-fall" biological bodies of
Adam and Eve were also subject to biological death without God's intervention.
The reason is that "these bodies need sustenance from outside themselves - that
is food." And as long as there is physiological activities, there will always be
the "wearing out" and aging.  Thus, God planted the "tree of life" in the middle
of the garden for the biological, mortal bodies' future transformation into
"immortal bodies," in God's own time, in the form of human bodies. Otherwise,
there would be no reason why God had that "tree of life" in the garden. The tree
of life symbolizes "eventual death" of the biological body, whether he/she
sinned or not, and "future immortality" back to God of the man's soul in human
form. Thus:
>
> Ge 3:21-24: And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us,
knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take
also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the Lord God
banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been
taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden
of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to
the tree of life. NIV
>
> You wrote:
> Let me put it this way.  I am in agreement with you, Isa, that the
resurrection body is incorruptible, instead of the corruptible one we're in now.
However, I see no evidence that the resurrection body is not biological. 
Likewise, I feel it is a physical body -- again, not corruptible like the ones
we have now.
>
> My response:
> "Physicality" is relative.  To the spirits, we are not "physical" because they
can pass through our bodies, not our bodies passing through theirs; to us, the
spirits had no physical bodies by our definition of "spirits." For one spirit to
another, they are as physically endued as we are to one another. Here again, we
have to have the same reference - spiritual bodies in the spirit world,
biological bodies to the biological world. To their respective world, these
bodies are "physical" meaning "solid." Otherwise, the spirits will not be
distinguishable one from another. Consider what Jesus said about the Father:
>
> Mt 18:10:  10 "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For
I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in
heaven. NIV
>
> You wrote:
> One area I disagree -- I have never heard anyone trying to put the entire
middle east under Jewish rule.  I have never heard anyone trying to overthrow
Jordan or Lebanon, or put a Christian government in Syria, Iraq, and Iran. 
However, I have no problem with Israel having control of the land they held
through history.  I do have a problem with those who want the entire middle east
-- including Israel -- to be under Islamic rule.  When Jordan controlled
Jerusalem, they promised not to let a Jew near the Wailing Wall.  Has Israel had
the same attitude toward the Dome of the Rock?
>
> My response:
> Zionist Christians are Christian churches that believe and support the
eventual political control by the Jews, with Jerusalem as the seat of the
government of national Israel, of the full extent of "the promised land." They
are unwitting tools of Zionism.  But this is a difficult issue.  So, let me
refer you to the webpage: 
http://sites.google.com/site/911newworldorderfiles/quotesonzionism.  Check also
Zionism in the internet.
>
> You wrote:
> By the way, when it talks about David reigning, one questions if it refers to
a resurrected David or to the Son of David, the Messiah, Jesus Christ when He
returns.
>
> My response:
> 1 Ch 17:10-14 should answer your question:  "'I declare to you that the Lord
will build a house for you: 11 When your days are over and you go to be with
your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, one of your own
sons, and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He is the one who will build a house
for me, and I will establish his throne forever. 13 I will be his father, and he
will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from
your predecessor. 14 I will set him over my house and my kingdom forever; his
throne will be established forever.'"  NIV
>
> It is NOT to David but to his offspring to whom God promised an eternal
kingdom, first referring to Solomon and Solomon's earthly kingdom on whom God
"will establish his (note "his" or Solomon's) throne forever"  (verses 10-13). 
Then note the shift from "his = Solomon's" to "my = God's" in verse 14: "I will
set him over my house and my kingdom forever; his throne will be established
forever."  Verse 14 anticipated the failure of Solomon to deserve an "eternal
kingdom," thus the shift to the "eternal kingdom in heaven" of the resurrected
Jesus - God's Messiah - now ruling over heaven and earth until God shall have
put "all His enemies as a footstool for your feet.".
>
> Teaching a physical reign of Jesus in earthly Jerusalem is not Biblical and
opens the world to the Zionist plot to rule the world, using Zionist money to
subvert all governments on earth by burying them in DEBTS, with one law for the
Jews and another for the Gentiles
(.http://www.takebackourrights.org/docs/noahidelaw.html).  Do you know that the
Talmud allows Jews to have sex with three (3)-year olds?
>
> You wrote:
> Let me go to the final point for conclusion.  You mentioned the futurist view
is making people wait for the fulfillment.  First off, it is not inconsistent
with Scripture for the righteous to have faith in something they did not see. 
Such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph who never saw the fulfillment of the
promise but believed it.  Second, we can only speculate what life after death is
like as far as time.  We have no indication that those who have passed on have
any awareness of time.  Plus, name the individual who has waited 2,000 years for
the fulfillment.
>
> My response:
> You wrote: "We have no indication that those who have passed on have any
awareness of time."
> To this, I give you Rv 6:9-11:  When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the
altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the
testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, "How long,
Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and
avenge our blood?" 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were
told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and
brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.  To ask "How
long. . . until you judge. . ." is proof that the dead in Christ are aware of
time.
>
> May God bless us all.
>
> Isa
> In Service to the People of God
>

Isa,

I'm so backlogged I didn't see this until after the other replies.

I'll tell you what.  Considering I don't have a lot of time to read this (and I
know enough to know that there are probably sites that say just the opposite),
I'll read it only under one condition.  That is if you read David Dolan's good
book "Holy War for the Holy Land".  Does your article agree or disagree with his
suppositions?  If it agrees, it may be worth reading.

Thanks again.

Jeff

--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Isa" <isalcordo@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi, Jeff:
>
> This is an addendum to my latest post to you.  Check this webpage: 
http://sites.google.com/site/911newworldorderfiles/quotesonzionism
>
> It got lost in that post.
>
> Isa
> In Service to the Lay People of God
> --------------
>

I wrote this today as a MySpace Blog, but I also value each of your feedback on
this.  I will admit I'm posting this on four different groups I'm involved in. 
Some people cross-post just to get the maximum readership.  While I do want a
lot of people to read this, I also want feedback from others, and I value your
feedback to this.

Backdrop -- I'm teaching on the Minor Prophets in Sunday School and am going to
be doing Zephaniah 1:12ff today.  I wrote this on the subject.  Thanks for your
patience with me posting this more than one place.


Are we settled in complacency?  Let me start with the Scripture that I'm
focusing on:

"And it shall come to pass at that time That I will search Jerusalem with lamps,
And punish the men Who are settled in complacency, Who say in their heart, 'The
LORD will not do good, Nor will He do evil."  Zephaniah 1:12, New King James
Version

I am always quick to point out that every verse should be looked at in context,
so I will practice what I preach.  Zephaniah, probably related to the royal line
(Zeph. 1:1 states his great grandfather was Hezekiah), was writing during the
reign of Josiah (also Zeph. 1:1).  Verses 2 and 3 give the big picture, that God
will consume everything.  Verses 4 and following give more details, mentioning
priests who serve false gods in addition to Yahweh (or Jehovah or the LORD, if
you prefer -- all mean the same thing) and the princes who dress like the world
while oppressing the poor.

The context is not just the preceding verses, but what follows.  Zeph. 1:13
tells that the punishment will be that the people's (Judah) possessions will be
a booty and that others will take over their land.  From 1:14 to the end of the
chapter, there is a description of the coming Day of the LORD.

We need to remember when dealing with prophetic Scripture like Zephaniah that
one of four things are true:
1.It is a prophecy with near fulfillment; in this case, the Babylonian
Captivity.
2.It is a prophecy with future fulfillment not only for the writers but for the
current readers, referring to the end times.  The Day of the LORD is often seen
to be the coming Tribulation.
3.Both are true – there is both a near fulfillment and a future and complete
fulfillment.  Example – Zechariah 9:9-10.  Verse 9 talks about the Triumphal
entry, while verse 10 talks about the coming Kingdom.  Another example is in the
Gospels when Jesus read from Isaiah 61 in Nazareth.  He actually stopped in the
middle of a sentence when He closed the scroll and handed it back, before
saying, “This prophecy has been fulfilled today.”  If He kept on and
finished the sentence, it would not have been true.
4.There is a specific meaning to the prophecy, but there are applications
(rather than fulfillments) that apply.  One example is Joel 2:28-32 (or Joel 3
if you use a Scripture with the Hebrew verse divisions, like Catholic Bibles
do):  This is an end-times prophecy, but there are elements of that passage that
related to the day of Pentecost, as Peter noted in Acts 2.  The opposite is true
as well – there are Scriptures that had short-term fulfillment, but there are
applications that apply to today.  I feel Zephaniah 1:12 is one of those.

This having been said, let's return to the verse we're looking at.  God (Yahweh,
Jehovah, the LORD) says He will search Jerusalem with lamps.  This refers to a
diligence, a careful searching.  In other words, there is no escape for those
settled in their complacency, whether it was the inhabitants of Judah in the
days of Josiah to whom this was originally written or the inhabitants of the
United States in 2010.

If you have been a good boy or girl and pulled out your own Bible to check this
out, you may notice that your reading is different.  Let me share this verse
from other translations I have access to:

King James Version:  *And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search
Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that
say in their heart, The LORD will not do good , neither will he do evil."

New International Version:  "At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps and
punish those who are complacent, who are like wine left on its dregs, who think,
'The LORD will do nothing, either good or bad.'"

New American Standard Bible:  "It will come about at that time That I will
search Jerusalem with lamps, And I will punish the men Who are stagnant in
spirit, Who say in their hearts, 'The LORD will not do good or evil!'"

English Standard Version:  "At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps, and
I will punish the men who are complacent, those who say in their hearts, 'The
LORD will not do good, nor will he do ill.'"

Holman Christian Standard:  "And at that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps
and punish the men who settle down comfortably, who say to themselves: The Lord
will not do good or evil."

Complete Jewish Bible:  "When that time comes, I will search Yerushalayim with
lamps and punish those who are [smug and thick, like wine] left too long on its
dregs, who say to themselves, 'ADONAI will do nothing - neither good nor bad.'"

Good News Translation:  "At that time I will take a lamp and search Jerusalem. I
will punish the people who are self-satisfied and confident, who say to
themselves, "The Lord never does anything, one way or the other.'"

The Message:  "On Judgment Day, I'll search through every closet and alley in
Jerusalem. I'll find and punish those who are sitting it out, fat and lazy,
amusing themselves and taking it easy, Who think, 'God doesn't do anything, good
or bad. He isn't involved, so neither are we.'"

New Century Version:  At that time I, the Lord, will search Jerusalem with
lamps. I will punish those who are satisfied with themselves, who think, 'The
Lord won't help us or punish us.'"

New Living Translation:  "I will search with lanterns in Jerusalem's darkest
corners to find and punish those who sit contented in their sins, indifferent to
the LORD, thinking he will do nothing at all to them."

New Revised Standard Version:  "At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps,
and I will punish the people who rest complacently  on their dregs, those who
say in their hearts, 'The Lord will not do good, nor will he do harm.'"

Douay-Rheims:  " And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search
Jerusalem with lamps, and will visit upon the men that are settled on their
lees: that say in their hearts: The Lord will not do good, nor will he do evil."

Okay, I may have gotten a little carried away with the number, but these various
translations help in this study.

You may have noticed some of the older translations refer to lees or dregs. 
Commentaries point out this refers to the dregs, the residue, in the bottom of
barrels of wine.  I don't have any experience with wine barrels, but I am very
familiar with the dregs on the bottom of a cup of hot chocolate.  No matter how
you stir, there's always gunk on the bottom.  That is what complacency looks
like.

Let's next see how God defines complacency.  You see, we often think of someone
just doing nothing.  One person used a cow outstanding in her field (I know, an
udderly ridiculous play on words; okay, I'll mooove along) as an illustration of
complacency.  But God defines it as an attitude:  That they are not looking for
Him to do anything good or bad.  Let me put in different words:  complacency is
believing God will neither reward the righteous nor punish the wicked.

As I mentioned, this is a passage warning the inhabitants of Jerusalem in
Josiah's reign.  But is God searching out people today to punish those among us
settled in complacency?  Allow me to be blunt:  Some will believe He is; those
who don't are settled in complacency and need to repent before God judges them.

Allow me to list what I see as modern examples of being settled in complacency. 
You may think of others, but here is a starting list.

1.Atheism/Agnosticism/Deism/Theological Liberalism/New Age Theology.  Duh. Of
course any view that does not have a personal God active in the lives of men. If
you fit in this category, you better pray you're right because if you're not,
you're in deep trouble.
2.Political Activism/Liberation Theology/Etc.  Yes, I'm including the religious
right in this category.  I've observed Rush Limbaugh and the late Dr. D. James
Kennedy both reflect that there may be political losses but there will be future
victories.  Politics puts the emphasis on man, not on God.  We are not really
expecting God to protect the righteous or to punish the wicked – we need to do
that for Him by abolishing abortion and protecting the institution of marriage
and voting in people who will do the right thing and opposing those who won't
(often resulting in voting for the lesser of two evils, as many did when they
pulled the ballot for McCain).
3.Full Preterism.  For those not familiar with this term, it refers to the
belief that all future prophecy in the Bible was fulfilled in 70 AD, including
the second coming.  (There are also partial preterists, who do believe there
will be a second coming but nothing else.)  These lack faith that God is really
concerned with the affairs of man other than one's relationship with God.  I am
focusing on the extreme, but some partial preterists and other amillennialists
(who believe prophetic Scriptures should be taken symbolically) should not
excuse themselves.  God is in control in this life as well as the future, and we
should realize God still judges the wickedness of both the individual and the
collective (movement, church, nation, etc.)
4.Universalism/Inclusivism/Extreme Calvinism.  This includes anyone who does not
believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation.  It is those who believe that
there is no need to evangelize, that devoutness is good enough.
5.Free Grace/Anti-Lordship salvation.  Some believe that if you go down the
aisle and make a profession, that's good enough.  They hold to the truth of
eternal security, but either ignore or reject the fact that salvation includes
transformation.  These feel that we can do whatever we want and not lose our
salvation, which is a caricature of what most eternal security people teach but
is still the view of some.  We don't expect any consequences to our actions.

My hunch is that there are few who haven't had their toes stepped on in these
five groups.  Guess what?  I'm holding my toes right now, cause I stepped on my
own.  We should each consider how we may be settled in complacency and repent. 
Yes, God calls the unsaved to repent, but He also calls the saved to repent as
well.  If you wish, please join me in this prayer:

Lord, please open my eyes to how I am settled in complacency.  Draw me to You,
to realize that when I rebel against You in even the slightest way, You will
correct, and that You will reward me for each act of obedience, at least in
heaven in the eternal Kingdom but often here in this life as well.  Give me a
heart of complete commitment, to live for You each moment of each day.  In
Jesus' name, Amen.

Jeff,

This is an apologetics forum, not a preaching forum. You should keep that firmly
in mind when posting here.

In Christ's service,
Rob Bowman
List Owner
Biblical Apologetics Group


--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Reynolds Jeff <preachingjeff@...>
wrote:
>
>
> I wrote this today as a MySpace Blog, but I also value each of your feedback
on this.  I will admit I'm posting this on four different groups I'm involved
in.  Some people cross-post just to get the maximum readership.  While I do want
a lot of people to read this, I also want feedback from others, and I value your
feedback to this.
>
> Backdrop -- I'm teaching on the Minor Prophets in Sunday School and am going
to be doing Zephaniah 1:12ff today.  I wrote this on the subject.  Thanks for
your patience with me posting this more than one place.
>

Thanks for the reminder.  Allow me to state why I felt this particular writing
belongs in an apologetics group.  True, it may not have been apologetic in
nature, but it does deal with themes that are apologetic.

First off, one major focus on apologetics is the existence of God and the nature
of that God.  In other words, is God an invisible force, or is He a personal
God?

Second, assuming we accept that a personal God exists, how is He involved in the
affairs of men?  Is it a Deistic approach where He winds up the clock and
watches run, where He watches us from a distance as the hit song sings?  Or does
He intervene by either positive interactions (i.e. blessings) and/or negative
interactions (i.e. punishing the wicked)?

Third, it touches on why there are bad situations.  Do things like earthquakes
and wars happen just because of random or in the case of war because men cannot
get along?  Or do the occur because of God either causing the activity or
allowing it (i.e. not stopping it)?

Fourth, you may be aware that apologetics is not limited to proving Christianity
as truth or disproving various non-Christian thoughts.  It also crosses over
into issues among Christianity, such as faith-healing, Calvinism vs.
Arminianism, authority and role of Scripture in relation to the church, etc. 
Sometimes one belief is a symptom of another belief.  One example was the
discussion I had with Isa, where his views on the resurrection had connections
to his views on preterism.  In this case, sometimes our theology and practical
outworking of that theology is based on the belief of whether God is involved
with our affairs or not, whether He does good or evil.

Hope this is a sufficient apologetic for me posting my thoughts.

Jeff


--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <faithhasitsreasons@...>
wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> This is an apologetics forum, not a preaching forum. You should keep that
firmly in mind when posting here.
>
> In Christ's service,
> Rob Bowman
> List Owner
> Biblical Apologetics Group
>
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Reynolds Jeff <preachingjeff@>
wrote:
> >
> >
> > I wrote this today as a MySpace Blog, but I also value each of your feedback
on this.  I will admit I'm posting this on four different groups I'm involved
in.  Some people cross-post just to get the maximum readership.  While I do want
a lot of people to read this, I also want feedback from others, and I value your
feedback to this.
> >
> > Backdrop -- I'm teaching on the Minor Prophets in Sunday School and am going
to be doing Zephaniah 1:12ff today.  I wrote this on the subject.  Thanks for
your patience with me posting this more than one place.
> >
>

Jeff:

Thanks for your defense of your post. Rob has become very narrow and personal
when he cannot maintain his position against the onslaght of reason. I do not
know whether apologists have ever considered Who the One God is when they
discourse on the TRINITY. For almost two thousand years, the churches have
maintained that it is a MYSTERY. The Bible does not suppport that contention.

I have now completed my Biblical Theology on the "One God and the Trinity." It's
19-pages long. I would like like Rob and all the others to critique it, to
destroy its logical basis if possible. I already sent copies to my Bishop and to
my parish priest for their comments. No returns yet.

May God bless us all.

Isa
In Service to the Lay People of God.

-------

--- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <preachingjeff@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the reminder.  Allow me to state why I felt this particular writing
belongs in an apologetics group.  True, it may not have been apologetic in
nature, but it does deal with themes that are apologetic.
>
> First off, one major focus on apologetics is the existence of God and the
nature of that God.  In other words, is God an invisible force, or is He a
personal God?
>
> Second, assuming we accept that a personal God exists, how is He involved in
the affairs of men?  Is it a Deistic approach where He winds up the clock and
watches run, where He watches us from a distance as the hit song sings?  Or does
He intervene by either positive interactions (i.e. blessings) and/or negative
interactions (i.e. punishing the wicked)?
>
> Third, it touches on why there are bad situations.  Do things like earthquakes
and wars happen just because of random or in the case of war because men cannot
get along?  Or do the occur because of God either causing the activity or
allowing it (i.e. not stopping it)?
>
> Fourth, you may be aware that apologetics is not limited to proving
Christianity as truth or disproving various non-Christian thoughts.  It also
crosses over into issues among Christianity, such as faith-healing, Calvinism
vs. Arminianism, authority and role of Scripture in relation to the church, etc.
Sometimes one belief is a symptom of another belief.  One example was the
discussion I had with Isa, where his views on the resurrection had connections
to his views on preterism.  In this case, sometimes our theology and practical
outworking of that theology is based on the belief of whether God is involved
with our affairs or not, whether He does good or evil.
>
> Hope this is a sufficient apologetic for me posting my thoughts.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <faithhasitsreasons@> wrote:
> >
> > Jeff,
> >
> > This is an apologetics forum, not a preaching forum. You should keep that
firmly in mind when posting here.
> >
> > In Christ's service,
> > Rob Bowman
> > List Owner
> > Biblical Apologetics Group
> >
> >
> > --- In biblicalapologetics@yahoogroups.com, Reynolds Jeff <preachingjeff@>
wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I wrote this today as a MySpace Blog, but I also value each of your
feedback on this.  I will admit I'm posting this on four different groups I'm
involved in.  Some people cross-post just to get the maximum readership.  While
I do want a lot of people to read this, I also want feedback from others, and I
value your feedback to this.
> > >
> > > Backdrop -- I'm teaching on the Minor Prophets in Sunday School and am
going to be doing Zephaniah 1:12ff today.  I wrote this on the subject.  Thanks
for your patience with me posting this more than one place.
> > >
> >
>

All,

Since we have recently had several irrelevant or spam posts show up on this
forum, I have temporarily put all posts on moderation so I can check them
personally before they are posted. This is only temporary.

Thanks for understanding.

In Christ's service,
Rob Bowman
List Owner
Biblical Apologetics Group

Rob, Paul, and All:

Here is what I have written about the One God and the Trinity. I will appreciate
your critical comments, if possible line-by-line so I can also respond to you
accordingly. You may disregards sections not germain to the main topic of GOD
BEING ONE and the TRINITY. Also, I will apppreciate your attribution to me as
the originator of the doctrine coovered by this paper. Thank you.

Isa
In Service to the Lay People of God

-----------------------------------

Biblical Theology:  The Bible as a Book of Spiritual Revelations: God, Man,
Death, and Resurrection

Dr. Isabelo S. Alcordo, Ph.D.


Part I.  The Nature of God - One God in Three Persons


	 I.1.  God and Creation. The Bible is not a book where God tries to prove His
existence. It simply assumes that God exists. I believe that the reason for this
is simple. If and when man realizes who he is and what his ultimate fate will
be, man will surely discover for himself the real existence of God and who God
is.


	 The Bible simply begins: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the
earth.” (Gen 1:1). By His Word (Jn 1:1-5), in a series of “Let there be . .
. ,” God created the seen and the unseen (Gen Chapts. 1-3). Thus,

Jn 1:1-5:  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were
made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and
that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the
darkness has not understood it.


	 God’s creation of the visible world of living and nonliving matter and the
invisible forces and laws that govern them that modern man has discovered which
he presently uses not only to explain the workings of his observed universe but
also to manipulate the same to create the most advanced technologies which
mankind is enjoying today gives man no reason not to believe in the reality of
God as his MAKER and as CREATOR of his universe. Thus, was Paul justified in
declaring to man:

Ro 1:18-20: The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the
godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19
since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it
plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities
— his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being
understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

	 God in His Oneness is unknowable. Except for the fact that the One God revealed
Himself to humankind in history, mankind would have never known the true God. In
such ignorance, mankind would have continued to this day worshiping objects of
nature or human kings, emperors, and rulers who, by their political power or
military might, would claim to be “gods” and so hold the power of life and
death over ordinary men and women, as it was of old.


	 Thanks be to God, through the indwelling of certain persons with His Spirit,
called prophets, He revealed Himself in the history of a chosen people, the
nation Israel, who had recorded their history all the bloody and sordid details
of their failure to live according to the Law and the Will of God. By these
prophets, God was able to reach out to man to say that He was and is not beyond
“knowing and understanding” (Jer 9:23-24) through His demands from mankind
whom He created in “His image, in His likeness” (Ge 1:26).

Jer 9:23-24:  This is what the Lord says: “Let not the wise man boast of his
wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his
riches, 24 but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and
knows me, that I am the Lord, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness
on earth, for in these I delight,”  declares the Lord.

Ge 1:26: Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and
let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the
livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the
ground.”


	 I.2.  God is One and the Attributes of the One God.  The true nature of God,
according to the Bible, as revealed by men filled with the Holy Spirit of God,
is that God is One (Deu 6:4-5; Isa 44:6; Mk 12:29).

Deu 6:4-5: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.  5 Love the
Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your
strength.”

Isa 44:6: This is what the Lord says — Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord
Almighty: “I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Mk 12:29: “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O
Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.’”


	 There are attributes of God that man is familiar with which man has felt and
experienced himself at certain moments in his life in finite scales and are
within man’s ability to aspire for. These are being holy, righteous, just, 
loving, kind, gracious, merciful, compassionate, good, faithful, and true to
one’s words among so many others.  One needs only to see a Bible concordance
to read these attributes of God. God, of course, has these attributes in the
scale of the infinite.

	 But there are attributes that belong to God alone. Thus, God is self-existent
(Ex 3:13-14). His existence is not caused by anything outside Himself. He is
self-sufficient having life in Himself and in need of nothing from outside
Himself (Ro 11:35-36).

Ex 3:13-14:  Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to
them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What
is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?” 14 God said to Moses, “I AM
WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to
you.’”

Ro 11:35-36: Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him? 36 For from
him and through him and to him are all things.


	 He is omnipresent, being present in the highest heaven and in the deepest depth
(Ps 139:7-8) and we even exist in Him (Ac17:26-28); omniscient, perceiving the
thoughts of men from afar and knowing man’s words before they are uttered (Ps
139:2-6; Isa 40:13-14); and omnipotent, whose words created the heavens and the
earth (Jn 1:1-5). And He is perfect in everything (Mt 5:47-48).

Ps 139:7-8:  Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your
presence? 8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the
depths, you are there.

Ac 17:26-28:   From one man he made every nation of men, that they should
inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact
places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and
perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of
us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’

Ps 139:1-4: O Lord, you have searched me and you know me. 2 You know when I sit
and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. 3 You discern my going out
and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. 4 Before a word is on my
tongue you know it completely, O Lord.

Isa 40:13-14:  Who has understood the mind of the Lord, or instructed him as his
counselor? 14 Whom did the Lord consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the
right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of
understanding?

Jn 1:1-35: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were
made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Mt 5:47-48: “And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than
others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly
Father is perfect.”


	 The One God is eternal and immutable. The book of Hebrews declares these
attributes of the One God.

Heb 1:10-12: In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment. 12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years
will never end.


	 To all His finite creations, humans and spirits, the One God is
incomprehensible (Job 11:7-8; Ro 11:33-36), beyond their mental understanding,
and infinite (1 Ki 8:37; Jer 23:24), whose face or form is beyond their ability
to visualize or to perceive and “in Him we live, move, and have our being (Ac
17:28).” And the One God is Sovereign (Isa 46:9-11), Lord of heaven and earth
whom no one has seen or can see (1 Ti 6:15-16).

Job 11:7-8: Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the
Almighty? 8 They are higher than the heavens — what can you do? They are
deeper than the depths of the grave—what can you know?

Ro 11:33: Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How
unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!

1 Ki 8:27: But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest
heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

Jer 23:24: “Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?” 
declares the Lord. “Do not I fill heaven and earth?” declares the Lord.

Ac 17:28: For in him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own
poets have said, “We are his offspring.”

Isa 46:8-11: “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none
like me. 10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is
still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. 11
From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my
purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that
will I do.”

1 Ti 6:15-16:  God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of
lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no
one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.


	 I.3.  One God in Three Persons - The Trinity.  Moses declared (Deu 6:4-6):
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” So did Jesus (Mk
12:29-31): “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.”


	 But before ascending to heaven, Jesus instructed (Mt 28:19-20) His disciples to
baptize believers in the names of three persons, those “of the Father and of
the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

Mt 28:18-20:  “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of
the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey
everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very
end of the age.”

	 Thus, theologians of mainstream churches have deduced from the Bible that God
is One in Three Persons  -  the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit - the Holy
TRINITY - all true Gods or have the fullness of the One God.  If so, who really
then is the One God?


	 According to most mainline churches, the One God is “the Father;” to some
He is “the Son, Jesus Christ;” to others He is “the Holy Spirit;” and
still to others the One God is the “TRINITY.” So, who is really the One God?


	 I.3.1.   Is “the Father”  the One God? Can “the Father” be the One God
and at the same time be one of the Three in the Trinity? If so, then the others
cannot be true Gods. But theologians have deduced that “the Son” and the
“Holy Spirit” are true Gods. So, “the Father” cannot be One.


	 I believe that it is possible to deduce who the One God is by a process of
elimination using the attributes of the One God. Now, one of the attributes of
the One God given earlier is that of being infinite. Since God is Spirit (Jn
4:23-24), the One God must be an infinite Spirit filling heaven and earth (Jer
23:24) without a defined form.

Jn 4:23-24: “Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers
will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers
the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit
and in truth.”

Jer 23:24: “Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?” 
declares the Lord. “Do not I fill heaven and earth?” declares the Lord.


	 Since it is impossible for finite beings to actually see with their own eyes
that which is infinite, the One God must be beyond visual perception by His
creatures, whether they are angels or men. Besides this irrefutable logical
conclusion, this fact is confirmed in 1 Timothy 6:15-16 that declares that “no
one has seen God nor can He be seen.” Can men or angels see or have men or
angels seen “the Father?”  Let the Bible answer this question.

1 Ti 6:15-16: God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of
lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no
one has seen  or can see. To him be honor and might forever.

Mt 5:8: “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.”

Mt 18:10: “See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I
tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in
heaven.”

Jn 6:44-47:  44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws
him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets:
‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and
learns from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is
from God; only he has seen the Father. ”


	 Again, can “the Father” be the One Infinite God?  Since angels, who are
finite spirits, were reported by Jesus to be always seeing the face of God the
Father in heaven, then the Father cannot be infinite and, therefore, cannot be
the One Infinite God. Besides, the Christ Spirit, Who has a defined form and
therefore finite claimed to have seen the Father (Jn 6:46-47). Also, Jesus said
that men who are pure in heart will definitely see or behold God with their own
eyes. Thus, we are led to no other conclusion but this:  “God the Father”
cannot be the One Infinite God. More so if God the Father is also the Almighty
God of Israel whom the prophet Isaiah declared to have seen Him with his own
eyes (Isa 6:5).

Jn 6:46-47: “No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only
he has seen the Father.”

Isa 6:5: “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean
lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King,
the Lord Almighty.”


	 I.3.2.  Can the Son (the Christ Spirit or Jesus the Man) Be the One God?  Just
as God the Father is not infinite in form, being seen by angels in heaven, so
must God the Son or the Christ Spirit also have His pre-incarnation form
distinguishable from that of the Father and the Holy Spirit. In His incarnation,
God the Son assumed the form of the man JESUS (Heb 10:5-7), hence giving us more
reasons to assert that the Christ Spirit or Jesus the Man cannot be the One
Infinite God.

Heb 10:5-7:  Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice
and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6 with burnt
offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.  Then I said, ‘Here I am —
it is written about me in the scroll — I have come to do your will, O
God.’”


	 I.3.3.  Can the Holy Spirit Be the One God?  The Holy Spirit or the Spirit of
God Himself has also His defined form as indicated by the report by the Father
and the Son in Genesis.

Ge 1:1-2. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the
earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the
Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.


	 Also, it appears that the Holy Spirit is subject to both the Father (Jn 14:16)
and the Son (Jn 15:26-27), and therefore, not Sovereign which is another
irreducible attribute of the One God.  The Holy Spirit appears to be more of a
“Helper” to continue the work of Jesus, through the apostles and the Church,
and to bring glory to the resurrected Christ Jesus (Jn 16:7, 12-15).  Therefore,
the Holy Spirit cannot be the One Infinite, Sovereign God!

Jn 14:16-18: “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another
Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot
accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he
lives with you and will be in you.”

Jn 15:26-27: “When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the
Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about
me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the
beginning.”

Jn 16:7, 12-15: “Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if
I go, I will send him to you.” “. . . 12 I have much more to say to you,
more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will
guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what
he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me
by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to
the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine
and make it known to you.”


	 1.3.4.  Can the Holy TRINITY be the One God?  The Holy Trinity is man’s 
collective term for the manifestation of the three distinct persons - “the
Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit” - of the One God. The word “Trinity”
is not found in the Bible.  It is also not a “person” and, therefore cannot
be the One God.


	 The process of elimination presented above has led us to no other conclusion,
and that is: None of the Three Persons of the Trinity nor the Trinity is the One
Infinite God. God the Father, however, appears to be the LIMIT of the One
Infinite God’s revelation of Himself to angels. The Christ Spirit embodied in
the man Jesus and in glorious body in human form or “like a son of man”
after Christ Jesus’s resurrection from the dead (Rev 1:12-18) and ascension to
heaven appears to be the LIMIT of both God the Father’s and the One Infinite
God’s revelation of the nature of God to humankind (Jn 1:18; 14:9).

Rv 1:12-18: And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the
lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down
to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 His head and hair were
white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His
feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of
rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth
came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its
brilliance.

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right
hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am
the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold
the keys of death and Hades.”

Jn 1:18:  No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the
Father's side, has made him known.

Jn 14:9: “Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a
long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.”


	 I.3.5.  The One God and the Evolution of The Trinity.  Since neither the
Father, nor the Son, nor the Holy Spirit, nor the Trinity is the One Infinite
God, who or what is our One God?


	 I believe that the One God is the Infinite Mind, the Infinite Intellect, the
Infinite Spirit. In His Oneness, the One God is absolutely beyond perception and
comprehension by His finite creations, both angels and men, unless He reveals
Himself to them in some “finite” forms. This He did in a Trinity of Persons
- as Father, as Son, and as Holy Spirit. As such, the Three Persons have the
same essence as the One God, one of WILL and PURPOSE with the One God, and speak
the words of the One God according to their separate roles, and are, therefore,
true Gods. Such finite manifestations of the Infinite God facilitated His works
of Creations and revelation of Himself in and to His creations. Having revealed
Himself to His creations, it is natural that He demands recognition of Him as
CREATOR and  glorification by His intelligent creations of angels in the world
of spirits and of men in the material universe. The Trinity also allowed Him to
keep His very own Person pristine and untainted by His creations.


	 How could the Trinity have come about? I believe that the One Infinite God’s
DESIRE to CREATE led the One Infinite God to emanate and manifest finite
essences of His Infinite nature.


	 First, the Infinite God emanated and “personified,” that is, “defined or
made “finite” in form so as to become manifest,” His Creative Will Whom He
revealed to us as the “Father in heaven” (Mt. 18:10, p. 5) and designated by
us as the “First Person of the Trinity.” And this “finite” Manifestation
of the One Infinite God as God the Father impresses on us, who are of finite
mind/intellect/spirit, an intimate “son-Father” relationship with the
Infinite God and reveals to us that the One God’s act of creations was a
Father’s act of love.


	 Then again, but not in sequential time, the Infinite One God emanated and
“personified” another Manifestation of Himself, His Creative Word or simply 
“the Word” (Jn 1:1-5, p. 1), Whom we have identified as the Second Person of
the Trinity, Who called out into existence all that were created (Ge Chapts.
1-3). Having emanated from the Infinite God but proceeding from the “finite”
God the Father, the Second Person of the Trinity is also called God the Son or
Son of God (Jn 20:31).  He is also called the Christ or the Christ Spirit (Heb
10:5-7, p. 6) Who incarnated in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.

Jn 20:31:  But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ,
the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.


	 With the Word, saying, “Let there be!” the Third Manifestation of the One
God, His “personified” Creative Power - the Spirit of God (Mt 3:16-17; Ac
2:33-34) - Whom we call God the Holy Spirit - the Third Person of the Trinity -
Who, emanating from the One God and proceeding from the Father and the Son,
acted with all of the One God’s Divine Power (Ge 1:1-2) to actualize in
perfection everything that was called out by the Word.

Mt 3:16-17:  As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that
moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove
and lighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I
love; with him I am well pleased.”

Ac 2:33-34:  Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father
the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

Ge 1:1-2:  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the
earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the
Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.


	 Thus, by the One Infinite God’s act of love, personified in the Father, the
Son, and the Holy Spirit - the Holy Trinity - were the world of spirits and our
world and everything therein created.  And it is by the name “of the Father
and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” that humankind is admitted into the
Kingdom of God.  (Mt 28:18-20).  In adoring and loving recognition of the
Infinite God behind the Holy Trinity, it is demanded of us that we glorify Him
in all our worship and prayer.  Thus, we pray  “Glory be to the One Infinite
God, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Amen!

Mt 28:18-20:  Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and
on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all
nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy
Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely
I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”


	 Reason, which is a gift of God, has led me to this NEW revelation for the
Church of God and for humanity for our time and age. It could serve as the
Doctrinal Foundation for the Unity of All Christian Church Denominations. It
also demands on us to understand and to respect all non-Christian monotheistic
religions and to dialogue with them to promote peaceful co-existence among the
various faith communities since all worship the same One Infinite God.


	 I.4.  The Name of God.   In the holy books of various nations, the One God has
been given various names by His devotees.  God’s names have become one of the
many causes of religious divisions and conflicts. But whatever name God is
called by the various nations, such as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, I AM, Elohim,
Allah, etc., none is His proper name but only a “descriptive name” to
separate Him from all other names in the language of that nation. Almost always,
such a name characterizes one of His many natures or acts in history. The only
universal name of God is “God” in the tongues of His devotees. But whatever
the equivalent of “God” in the language of a nation, it is not His one and
only proper name for God is unnameable!


	 The reason why God had not given humankind His proper name could be deduced
from the belief of the ancients that whoever was able to call somebody by
one’s proper name would possess some kind of control over the thing or person
named. Remember Adam giving names and calling all the animals by their names to
exercise his rule over them that God had given him? It is also to avoid that
Sacred Name from being dishonored, disrespected, at worse, blasphemed by His
creations. Therefore, God in His Oneness is unnameable to keep that Divine Name
pristine and untainted by His creations.


	 In most  monotheistic religions, God is called “Father” in deference to His
being the Creator of man and his universe. In Christianity, the most intimate
address to God reflecting true filial (son-Father) relationship between the
worshiping man and God is that of “Abba” or “Daddy or Papa” (Mk
14:35-36; Ro 8:12-17; Gal 4:1-7). Jesus endearingly addressed God as “Abba.”

Mk 14:35-36:  Going a little farther, he (Jesus) fell to the ground and prayed
that if possible the hour might pass from him. 3 “Abba, Father,”  he said,
“everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will,
but what you will.”

Ro 8:12-17: Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation — but it is not to the
sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the
sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds
of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God
are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave
again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry,
“Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are
God's children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs — heirs of God
and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we
may also share in his glory.”

Gal 4:1-7: What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no
different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2 He is subject to
guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were
children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. 4 But when
the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to
redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6 Because
you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who
calls out, “Abba, Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and
since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.


	 Slaves and servants in the time and culture of Jesus, as it is today in the
case of house servants, were not allowed to address the heads of households
“Abba!”
	 I.5.  JESUS, the Christ, the Redeemer. Genesis 1:26-27 and 2:7 give the story
of the creation of the first man and woman whom God placed in His Garden and who
were given one and only one prohibition (Ge 2:16-17), which was not to eat from
the “tree of knowledge of good and evil.”

Ge 1:26-27:  Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,
and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the
livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the
ground.” 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he
created him; male and female he created them.

Ge 2:7: And . . . the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living
being.

Ge 2:16-17: “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must
not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it
you will surely die.”


	 Tempted by a fallen Cherubim, Lucifer or Satan, the devil, who spoke through a
serpent, saying that God had really lied to them (Ge 3:4-5), the woman ate from
the forbidden tree and gave some to her husband who also partook of it. For such
transgression, God drove the man and the woman out of His Garden (Ge 3:22-24).

Ge 3:4-5: “You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For
God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like
God, knowing good and evil.”

Ge 3:22-24: And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us,
knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take
also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the Lord God
banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been
taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden
of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to
the tree of life.


	 God also formed and infused another spiritual entity in fallen man, the
“human spirit” or “spirit of man” which personifies man’s covetousness
and envy to “be like God” which eventually dominated the soul (Zec 12:1; Jas
4:5).

Zec 12:1-2:  The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of
the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares:

Jas 4:5:  Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he
caused to live in us envies intensely?


	 Upon the death of their biological bodies, God condemned their physical bodies
to return to dust (Ge 3:17-19) from where they were taken. The eternal inner man
“created in the image of God, in His likeness” or “soul,” but now
dominated by the spirit of man, was also condemned to Sheol or Hades in a
“state of spiritual death” separated from God. A thorough discussion of
these subjects will be given in the Sections on “The Nature of Man” and on
“The Nature of Death.”
Ge 3:17-19: “To Adam (Man) he said, ‘Because you listened to your wife and
ate from the tree about which I commanded you,’ “You must not eat of it,”
‘Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life. 18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your brow you will
eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for
dust you are and to dust you will return.’”


	 God also condemned the devil and promised him an adversary who would eventually
crush him in defeat and through whom fallen man may be redeemed from his
transgressions to stand once again in the presence of his Creator (Ge 3:15).

Ge 3:15: “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your
offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”


	 The history of the nation Israel - initially chosen by God (Ex19:5-6) to become
a holy nation, a kingdom of priests on earth under the rule of God’s Messiah
or Anointed - as recorded by the prophets of God in the Old Testament is the
story of God’s plan to prepare a people for the coming of His Anointed, His
Christ, the Jewish Messiah, man’s Redeemer in the Person of JESUS of Nazareth
who would “save his people from their sins” (Mt 1:20-231) and, through the
Jewish people, free mankind from the grip of Satan the devil.

Ex 19:5-6: “Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all
nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6
you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.”

Mt 1:20-21:  But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to
him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary
home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he
will save his people from their sins.”


	 It was for that purpose that the Christ Spirit incarnated in the person of
Jesus of Nazareth. The incarnation was the fleshing (Heb 10:5-7, p.6; 1 Jn
4:2-3; 2 Jn 7) of the Christ Spirit or, simply, the Christ, the Second Person of
the Trinity, the Word of the One God (Jn 1:1-5; Jn 1:14).  Thus in the man Jesus
dwells the fullness of the One God in bodily form (Col 1:17-20; Col 2:9-10). In
a real sense, the fleshing of the Christ Spirit in the body of Jesus, a man, has
made the resurrected Christ Spirit, now in human form or “like a Son of Man”
(Dan 7:13-14), true man and Christ Jesus in flesh true God - thus the name
Christ Jesus or Jesus Christ.

1 Jn 4:2-3: This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that
acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every
spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of
the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the
world.

2 Jn 7:  Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the
flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the
antichrist.

Jn 1:1-5: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were
made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and
that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the
darkness has not understood it.”

Jn 1:14: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen
his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of
grace and truth.”

Col 1:17-20. “He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18
And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the
firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the
supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and
through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or
things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.”

Col 2:9-10. “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity (Godhead) lives in
bodily form, 10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over
every power and authority.”

Da 7:13-14: “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like
a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of
Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and
sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom
is one that will never be destroyed.”


	 Unfortunately, the Jewish nation, led by its leadership and priesthood,
rejected Jesus as the promised Jewish Messiah on whom the Father committed the
redemption of mankind and had Him crucified instead (Ac 2:29-36).

Ac 2:29-36: “Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David
died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet
and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his
descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the
resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his
body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses
of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the
Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34
For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, ‘The Lord said to my
Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your
feet.’ 36 Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this
Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”


	 And the Gentiles who accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord and now constituted into
the Church of God replaced the nation Israel as God’s Chosen People (1 Pet
2:9-10). This was revealed and declared by Peter, the apostle to the Jews,
consistent with what Jesus had said to the nation Israel in Mt 21:43-44.

1 Pe 2:9-10:  But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a
people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you
out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now
you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have
received mercy.

Mt 21:43-44: “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away
from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 He who falls on
this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”


	 The “Son-Father” relationship between the nation Israel and God ended with
the tragic destruction of the Jewish temple, God’s earthly temple in
Jerusalem, and the desolation of the land of Israel by the Roman army in 70 A.D.
(Lk 21:20-22; Josephus - The War of the Jews). It also led to the dispersion of
the Jews into the Gentile nations of the world.

Lk 21:20-22: “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know
that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the
mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter
the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has
been written.”


	 The sole message left to the Jews by the Christ Jesus valid to this day is
given in Matthew 23:37-39. The implication of such a message, being addressed to
Jerusalem, is that the Jews must accept, as a nation and not individually, Jesus
in Spirit as the Son of king David promised by God to David in 1 Ch 17:10-14,
now ruling in a heavenly throne over heaven and earth with God the Father.

Mt 23:37-37: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone
those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as
a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look,
your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again
until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

1 Ch 17:10-14: “‘I declare to you that the Lord will build a house for you:
11 When your days are over and you go to be with your fathers, I will raise up
your offspring to succeed you, one of your own sons, and I will establish his
kingdom. 12 He (Solomon) is the one who will build a house for me, and I will
establish his throne forever. 13 I will be his father, and he will be my son. I
will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor.
14 I will set him over my house and my kingdom forever; his throne will be
established forever.’”

Ac 2:29-35: “Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David
died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet
and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his
descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the
resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his
body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses
of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the
Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34
For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, ‘The Lord said to my
Lord:’ “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for
your feet.”’


	 The Jewish nation’s rejection of Jesus as the promised Messiah opened to the
Gentiles, and remains open to individual Jews through faith in Jesus as personal
Savior and Sovereign Lord, the door into the “son-Father” relationship with
God the Father and with the One Infinite God. In and through Jesus, Christian
Jews and  Gentiles, constituting the Church of God (Mt 16:15-20; 1 Co 1:2-3),
have now become the one People of God (Eph 2:14-18).

Mt 16:15-20: “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”  16
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not
revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you
are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will
not overcome it.  19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever
you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will
be loosed in heaven.”

1 Co 1:2-3:  To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ
Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the
name of our Lord Jesus Christ — their Lord and ours: 3 Grace and peace to you
from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:14-18: For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has
destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his
flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create
in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one
body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to
death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away
and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the
Father by one Spirit.


	 And according to Paul (Ro 9:6-9), the claim of the ethnic Jews as “God’s
Chosen People” was a misunderstanding by that nation and was never intended by
God in the over all plan of salvation. It was also a “conditional call” as
Exodus 19:5-6 clearly shows: “. . . if you obey me fully and keep my
covenant” which condition they failed miserably to meet as a nation. Thus,
God’s merciful offer of grace through Jesus which the nation Israel again
rejected (Jn 1:17-18) to this day.

Ro 9:6-9: It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are
descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are
they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your
offspring will be reckoned.”  8 In other words, it is not the natural children
who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded
as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the
appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”

Jn 1:17-18:  For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through
Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at
the Father's side, has made him known.


	 I.5.1. JESUS, the Name Above Every Name, and Christian Unity.  Now, it has been
established beyond doubt that the One Infinite God has not revealed His Proper
Pristine Name to humankind. Even God the Father, the LIMIT of the One Infinite
God’s revelation of Himself to His creations, has not given humankind His
Proper Name - but simply the most fitting description of a loving Creator -
which is that of “Father.” Thus, whatever name that refers to the One
Infinite God or the finite  “God our Father in heaven” that any ethnic group
believed was revealed to its people, such a name must be accepted as a product
of the uniqueness of its language and nothing more. Thus, any and all names that
refer to the One Infinite God or the finite God the Father Who is worshiped as
Creator of man and his universe are valid names of God to all monotheistic
people. Thus, “The name of my God is God!” is a divine truth to
English-speaking people.  So is “The name of my God is YHWH or Yahweh or
Jehovah!” to the Jews. And so also is “The name of my God is Allah!” to
the Arabic people.  By this truth and through mutual respect I believe it is
possible to call all monotheistic religions to UNITY and be united as Peoples of
the One God.  It may be noted that the Koran, the Holy Book of Islam, calls both
the Jews and the Christians “people of the book.”


	 Christianity, however, is unique among the monotheistic religions in that it
directs its adherents to call on one Name to reach out to God, and that Name
happened to be the name of a human being.  It should, however, be recognized
also that that person happened to have been raised by God from the dead to put
God’s imprimatur on that man as truly His Son (1 Col 15:3-8). This fact
together with its implication to mankind is the Good News, the Gospel, that
Christianity is now preaching to the whole world.

1 Co 15:3-8: For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that
Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that
he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he
appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more
than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still
living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all
the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally
born.

Ro 1:1-6:  Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set
apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his
prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature
was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared
with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ
our Lord. 5 Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and
apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that
comes from faith. 6 And you also are among those who are called to belong to
Jesus Christ.

Ro 1:16-17:  I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for
the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that
is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will
live by faith.”


	 And that Name is JESUS in English, YESHUA/YAHSHUA to the Messianic Jews or
Yesous/Iesous in Greek or its equivalent in the thousands of languages and
dialects in the world. The original meaning of the name  has to do with
Jesus’s work of salvation as indicated below (Mt 1:20-21; Php 2:5-11).

Mt 1:20-21:  “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your
wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give
birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his
people from their sins.”

Php 2:5-11:  Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:  6 Who,
being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be
grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being
made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled
himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross!  9 Therefore God
exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and
under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the
glory of God the Father.
Ac 4:12:  Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under
heaven given to men by which we must be saved.


	 But whatever name is used in the language of the various nations and peoples,
as long as the name refers to the human person of the Christ Spirit as preached
by the Elect of God, such name is a valid name of our Redeemer and Sovereign
Lord!


	 I.5.2.  JESUS and the WILL of the Father in Heaven.  Not all who call Jesus
“Lord” or who, “prophesy, drive out demons, or perform many miracles in
the name of Jesus” are true or approved people of the Christ Jesus. This fact
is made very clear by Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23. As Jesus declared, it is only
those who “obey the Will of the Father in heaven” are His co-workers in the
kingdom of God on earth.  So, to the lay people of God, be warned! Test your
spiritual teachers and leaders by this standard.

Mt 7:21-23: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the
kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your
name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I
will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”


	 Now, obedience counts only when what we obey is the “true and correct Will of
our Father in heaven.”  It is, therefore, of utmost importance to know,
without doubt, right from the Bible, what God’s Will was and still is to this
day for our churches and for us individually. And this is the Will of our Father
in heaven (Eph 1:3-10) for our churches and for us individually: To do the
Father’s work on earth with everything we have, motivated only by our love of
God, of Christ Jesus, and of our fellow man, to “bring all things in heaven
and on earth together under one head, even Christ.”

Eph 1:3-10: Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has
blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For
he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in
his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus
Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his
glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we
have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with
the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and
understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to
his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when
the times will have reached their fulfillment — to bring all things in heaven
and on earth together under one head, even Christ.


	 I believe that the time of fulfillment started when the resurrected Christ
Jesus was called by God the Father “to sit at His right hand” as revealed by
the apostle Peter (Ac 32-36).

Ac 2:32-36:  God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the
fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the
promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David
did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,  “The Lord said to my Lord:  ‘Sit
at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’'
36 Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom
you crucified, both Lord and Christ.


	 And the resurrected Christ Jesus, before He ascended to His Father in heaven,
commanded (Mt 28:16-20) His disciples, and today the Church as One Body and the
members individually, what we have to do in obedience to that mysterious Will of
God. I believe that it is only by our participation in the Great Commission that
we become co-workers of Jesus in the Kingdom of God on Earth, thus warrants our
being counted by our personal Savior and Sovereign Lord  as among those who
“does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

Mt 28:16-20:  “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of
the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey
everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very
end of the age.”  AMEN!


	 I.6.  CONCLUSION. I believe that my insight into the nature of the One Infinite
God is a NEW revelation to the Church of God, to the ekklesial communities, and
to humanity for our time and age for our understanding of the various
non-Christian monotheistic religions in the world. The revelation calls on us
Christians to accept the worship by other monotheistic religions of their One
God, by whatever name He is called, as true worship of the “One Infinite
God” now revealed to Christianity.


	 However, the command of Christ Jesus to us to “love your neighbor as
yourself” demands that, through appeal to reasons, we must continue to reach
out to them to bring the truth of the One God’s revelation of Himself in the
Trinity if they, like us, were to stand on judgment day before a “God Who is a
Father”  to us and not one  “Who is an Avenging God of Wrath” to those who
reject the blood shed, the suffering, and the eventual death of His Only
Begotten Son, Christ Jesus, on the cross which is the only Sin Offering
acceptable to God the Father, hence to the One Infinite God (Ro 3:22-26).

Jn 14:6-7: Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one
comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know
my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Ro 3:22-26: This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to
all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short
of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the
redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of
atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice,
because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand
unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as
to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

	 And as for us Christians, our adoring and loving recognition of the Reality of
the One Infinite God behind the TRINITY by opening our prayers, praise, and
worship with “Glory be to the One Infinite God in the name of the Father and
of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” and addressing Him in the Person of “God
the Father” or “our Father in heaven” in the Name of Jesus could serve as
the doctrinal foundation for the Unity of the thousands of church denominations.
It should also bring into focus the unquestioned monotheism of Christianity. 
AMEN!

All,

My decision to put all posts temporarily on moderated status was prompted
primarily by a spam message that had to be deleted, not by any one person's
posts. However, I have received some emails complaining that my disapproval of
certain posts has been overly restrictive. That may be. If so, I apologize to
the group.

To be honest, I have had way too much going on lately, including a trip to
Uganda from which I returned less than a week ago and another trip out of state
later this week for which I need to prepare. So it is possible that I have not
had sufficient time to think about these moderating decisions.

I am now going to remove the moderating restrictions. Thank you for your
patience.

In Christ's service,
Rob Bowman

Isa,

You wrote:

<< But before ascending to heaven, Jesus instructed (Mt 28:19-20) His disciples
to baptize believers in the names of three persons, those “of the Father and
of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.... Thus, theologians of mainstream churches
have deduced from the Bible that God is One in Three Persons  -  the Father, the
Son, and the Holy Spirit - the Holy TRINITY - all true Gods or have the fullness
of the One God.  If so, who really then is the One God? >>

The doctrine of the Trinity denies that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are
"true Gods"; rather, it teaches that they are one God.

You wrote:

<< According to most mainline churches, the One God is "the Father;" to some He
is "the Son, Jesus Christ;" to others He is "the Holy Spirit;" and still to
others the One God is the "TRINITY." So, who is really the One God? >>

Where are you getting your information about what "most mainline churches"
teach?

The orthodox Trinitarian position is that the one true God is the Trinity,
existing eternally as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Furthermore, Trinitarian
theologians recognize that the New Testament writers typically applied the "one
God" language specifically to the Father, while they applied the parallel
expression "one Lord" to Jesus Christ.

You wrote:

<< Is "the Father"  the One God? Can "the Father" be the One God and at the same
time be one of the Three in the Trinity? If so, then the others cannot be true
Gods. But theologians have deduced that "the Son" and the "Holy Spirit" are true
Gods. So, "the Father" cannot be One. >>

Isa, I'm sorry to have to say this, but you have wasted your efforts. You are
trying to critically examine the doctrine of the Trinity without first
understanding it (Prov. 18:13). The fact that you attribute the language of
"true Gods" (plural) to Trinitarian theologians proves you have not done your
homework.

Please read some good Trinitarian theologians and then address your treatise to
what the doctrine of the Trinity really teaches.

In Christ's service,
Rob Bowman

All,

For those interested in the doctrine of the Trinity, I have posted a
bibliography on the subject in the files section of this forum:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biblicalapologetics/files

You will need to be able to open a PDF file.

In Christ's service,
Rob Bowman