> << Question: Is not the distinction between substance and accident the
> same as that between a whole and its parts?

Sam Kutler:
>  I answer that it is not the same:
>          A wheel is a part of a wagon.
>          The color of the wagon is an accident.

Shriber:
> A particular color may be a accident but not the idea of color which like
> a wheel is the objects necessary component.

Well, agreed it's got to have some color, but is the factory-finish (i.e.,
whatever
color it comes out from the fabricating process) "its color" or, if it's given
another finish is THAT its color?  And what about the "color" it gets from use?

mbales@...

In a message dated 1/16/00 5:16:59 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
qwoodard@... writes:

<<  Would you
  agree that, ultimately, the distinction between whole and part is arbitrary,
  depending on what one considers a "unity?"  For sale in a store, a wheel
would
  be considered a whole, comprised of parts such as spokes, rim, and hub. >>


A wheel would be a whle if one bought it order ot hang it on a wall.
Otherwise the wheel is part of an object whether in the store or on a wagon.


One can think of objects sans part, a stie for example, yet even a stone has
"aspects." How do we distinguish between an aspect and a part?


shriber

In a message dated 1/16/00 4:16:18 PM !!!First Boot!!!, s-kutler@...
writes:

<< Question: Is not the distinction between substance and accident the same
  >as that between a whole and its parts?

  I answer that it is not the same:

          A wheel is a part of a wagon.

          The color of the wagon is an accident.

  Best wishes from Annapolis,

  Sam Kutler

   >>


A particular color may be a accident but not the idea of color which like a
wheel is the objects necessary component.

shriber

s-kutler@... (Samuel S. Kutler) wrote:

>         A wheel is a part of a wagon.

A whole so contains the things it contains that they form a unity.  Would you
agree that, ultimately, the distinction between whole and part is arbitrary,
depending on what one considers a "unity?"  For sale in a store, a wheel would
be considered a whole, comprised of parts such as spokes, rim, and hub.

Christoffer Vig:

You wrote:

>Question: Is not the distinction between substance and accident the same
>as that between a whole and its parts?

I answer that it is not the same:

         A wheel is a part of a wagon.

         The color of the wagon is an accident.

Best wishes from Annapolis,

Sam Kutler

For those of us who just joined the list it would be helpful if we could get
a chance to read the whole of Aristotle's  Metaphysics.

To that end perhaps one could set up a double reading, as it were. One that's
thematically concerned and one that's chronological following the order of
the text.

A A Shriber

"Lancelot R. Fletcher" wrote:
>
> From: "Lancelot R. Fletcher" <lance@...>
>
> Kalev Pehme writes:
>
> > I suggest that instead of doing an entire reading, we take a
> > problem within
> > the Metaphysics, read it, and then discuss it. By a problem, I mean, for
> > example, what is a whole and what is a part, a confusion that is running
> > rampant on the Strauss list lately. I think it would be easier than just
> > beginning at the beginning and trying to get to the end.
>
> The suggestion to focus on a particular problem within the Metaphysics might
> be a good one, but I think perhaps we should take one of the problems that
> Aristotle explicitly states in Book III.  Whole and Part are among the terms
> Aristotle defines in the philosophical lexicon of Book V, but otherwise I
> don't see that the question of parts and wholes -- as such -- is the central
> focus of any of the questions Aristotle explicitly discusses in the
> Metaphysics.  True, it does come up, for example in chapters 10 and 11 of
> Book VII, but I think it would be a mistake to abstract that discussion from
> the question about the nature of substance and being which provides its
> context.



Question: Is not the distinction between substance and accident the same
as that between a whole and its parts? Does not this constitute an
important difference from  a contemporary mode of thought, where
everything is "parts" and there are no "wholes"? I think I have to
stress that I mean this as a question. Would not a discussion that took
its starting point from this "whole and part" problem, be able to have a
viewpoint from which these differences clearly could emerge? Aquinas
too, lists "a whole must be greater than its parts" as being just as
fundamental as the principle of non-contradiction.

A thing is a whole with parts. What is the whole, apart from the parts?
Nothing? What is this sum that is not just a pile of dung, but the form
of a human being - an ordered whole, not a fragmentary chaos,
distinguishable where one thing ends and the other begins. What is the
limit between one whole and another.

I must admit that I know Aristotle mainly via Aquinas. I would like to
follow the discussion, but I am afraid I do not have enough knowledge
(or time)  to lead it.

Christoffer Vig

The Free Lance Academy's Aristotle Metaphysics list is about to launch a new
reading of the Metaphysics, and you're invited to join.

We haven't yet decided exactly how to do it. We might go straight through
the text from beginning to end, or we might select a particular problem or
section to concentrate on.  Also, we haven't yet chosen a discussion leader.

If you would like to join this discussion, send a message to:

aristotle-met-subscribe@onelist.com

or go to the list home page: http://www.onelist.com/community/aristotle-met
and subscribe from there.

If you would like to be considered as a discussion leader, please contact me
at the address below.

Lancelot Fletcher, President
The Free Lance Academy Foundation
http://freelance-academy.org
lance@...

>From: "Lancelot R. Fletcher" <lance@...>

>Who's up for a new reading of the Metaphysics?
>
>Who's willing to lead a new reading the the Metaphysics?
>
>Are there any proposals for how to do it -- where to start, on what
>schedule, what translation to use, etc.?
>
>Don't be shy.  Let us hear from you.

I am new to this list... but I do have a copy of Aristotle on the shelf next
a few other Greek fellows and would love to get into his metaphysics.  I am
still an undergrad in philosophy so please ixnay on the Greek when
possible...

Mark
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Lance Fletcher writes:

> The suggestion to focus on a particular problem within the
> Metaphysics might
> be a good one, but I think perhaps we should take one of the
> problems that
> Aristotle explicitly states in Book III.  Whole and Part are
> among the terms
> Aristotle defines in the philosophical lexicon of Book V, but
> otherwise I
> don't see that the question of parts and wholes -- as such --
> is the central
> focus of any of the questions Aristotle explicitly discusses in the
> Metaphysics.  True, it does come up, for example in chapters
> 10 and 11 of
> Book VII, but I think it would be a mistake to abstract that
> discussion from
> the question about the nature of substance and being which
> provides its
> context.

I believe that this is good suggstion. As far as I am concerned, any
problem in the Metaphysics, small or large, is difficult enough to break
one's head on. Let's some up with some agreement on what issues, and how to
continue, Mr. List Owner.

Best regards,

Kalev Pehme

Kalev Pehme writes:

> I suggest that instead of doing an entire reading, we take a
> problem within
> the Metaphysics, read it, and then discuss it. By a problem, I mean, for
> example, what is a whole and what is a part, a confusion that is running
> rampant on the Strauss list lately. I think it would be easier than just
> beginning at the beginning and trying to get to the end.

The suggestion to focus on a particular problem within the Metaphysics might
be a good one, but I think perhaps we should take one of the problems that
Aristotle explicitly states in Book III.  Whole and Part are among the terms
Aristotle defines in the philosophical lexicon of Book V, but otherwise I
don't see that the question of parts and wholes -- as such -- is the central
focus of any of the questions Aristotle explicitly discusses in the
Metaphysics.  True, it does come up, for example in chapters 10 and 11 of
Book VII, but I think it would be a mistake to abstract that discussion from
the question about the nature of substance and being which provides its
context.

Lancelot Fletcher, President
The Free Lance Academy Foundation
http://freelance-academy.org
lance@...

>Who's up for a new reading of the Metaphysics?

I'm up for it.

Lance Fletcher writes:

> Hi, I'm the owner the the Aristotle Metaphysics list.  Have
> you noticed that
> it's been a long time since any discernible metaphysics was
> done here?  The
> last time Ed Little was kind enough to lead us all the way
> through the text,
> Ed did a great job leading, but it was hard to tell from the
> responses, from
> their fewness that is, whether anybody was following.
> Anyway, Aristotle's
> Metaphysics is one of those books that you need to re-read
> every so often.
> The words are always the same, but somehow the reading is
> always different
> and new.
>
> Who's up for a new reading of the Metaphysics?
>
> Who's willing to lead a new reading the the Metaphysics?
>
> Are there any proposals for how to do it -- where to start, on what
> schedule, what translation to use, etc.?
>
> Don't be shy.  Let us hear from you.

It was a long time ago when Ed Little did his superlative work, which I
followed with great pleasure as it is rare for someone to be so conversant
with Aristotle.

I suggest that instead of doing an entire reading, we take a problem within
the Metaphysics, read it, and then discuss it. By a problem, I mean, for
example, what is a whole and what is a part, a confusion that is running
rampant on the Strauss list lately. I think it would be easier than just
beginning at the beginning and trying to get to the end.

Best regards,

Kalev Pehme

Hi, I'm the owner the the Aristotle Metaphysics list.  Have you noticed that
it's been a long time since any discernible metaphysics was done here?  The
last time Ed Little was kind enough to lead us all the way through the text,
Ed did a great job leading, but it was hard to tell from the responses, from
their fewness that is, whether anybody was following.  Anyway, Aristotle's
Metaphysics is one of those books that you need to re-read every so often.
The words are always the same, but somehow the reading is always different
and new.

Who's up for a new reading of the Metaphysics?

Who's willing to lead a new reading the the Metaphysics?

Are there any proposals for how to do it -- where to start, on what
schedule, what translation to use, etc.?

Don't be shy.  Let us hear from you.

Lancelot Fletcher, President
The Free Lance Academy Foundation
http://freelance-academy.org
lance@...

Tony Beavers requested that I distribute the following to my lists.  I don't
usually distribute announcements, but I have tried out Noesis and I can
attest that it is a very useful tool and a lot of fun.

Lance Fletcher

------------

               -- Please cross-post as appropriate --

The Internet Applications Laboratory at the University of Evansville
would like to announce the beta-release of the latest version of Noesis
at

                       http://noesis.evansville.edu

Noesis has been thoroughly overhauled since its previous release. It now
indexes over 20,000 philosophical items by more than 2,000 authors. It
allows full-text searching across all or only subsections of the database,
flexible search filters, many options for browsing, the creation of
user-defined subsets of the database for custom organizing, and
peer-review endorsements by professional users. It will continue to grow
in content and features, especially during the coming months.  Using
Noesis is free of charge.

Anthony Beavers
Co-editor, Noesis
Director, The Internet Applications Laborator
The University of Evansville

Peter Suber
Co-editor, Noesis
Earlham College


Lancelot Fletcher, President
The Free Lance Academy Foundation
http://freelance-academy.org
lance@...

I know I am here.  No one says anything tho.

Yeah, where is everyone?

Hoping to understand aristotle so as to get a better grasp of what
nonaristotelianism 'is'.

On 22 Jun 1999 edsarkis@... wrote:

> From: edsarkis@...
>
> Is this an active list?
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> We must be crazy! We're practically giving our books away! Doubleday
> Book Club® offers the best sellers and more! Get 5 books for just $.99
> + 1 free with membership! Go to http://www.onelist.com/ad/doubleday8
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This is one of the  lists sponsored by The Free Lance Academy, home of Slow
Reading:
> http://www.freelance-academy.org  To unsubscribe by e-mail,
mailto:aristotle-met-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>

Is this an active list?

Is this an active list?

******************************************************************
**********************Freelance-News**************************
******************************************************************

I am pleased to announce the formation of the plato-meno list,
intended to provide a forum for a slow reading of Plato's Meno.  (For
a brief discussion of what I mean by "slow  reading," please see my
essay at  http://www.freelance-academy.org/slowread.htm.)

This is one of a number of lists dealing with Plato among a  larger
group of lists, mostly dealing with philosophy, which are  hosted by
The Free Lance Academy, a not-for-profit organization  whose main
purpose is to create opportunities for serious,  committed
intellectual inquiry outside the university, primarily  by means of
online media such as internet mailing lists.

To subscribe to the plato-meno list, you may point your browser to the
following URL

http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/plato-meno

Or you may subscribe via e-mail by sending a message to:
plato-meno-subscribe@onelist.com (It doesn't matter what you put in
the body of the message or on the subject line, since the address
itself is the subscribe command.)

Perhaps I should mention that the creation of this list was requested
by some of the members of the Free Lance Academy's klein list, and it
is likely that some readers will be using Jacob Klein's Commentary on
Plato's Meno as an aid to their reading.

Lance Fletcher, President
The Free Lance Academy Foundation
http://www.freelance-academy.org
lance@...

I will be away from my computer from April 29 until May 9. I may be
able to check my e-mail while I am travelling, but I may not, so it is
likely that correspondence pertaining to my lists will go unanswered
until my return.

Most of this time I will be in Tbilisi, in the Republic of Georgia.
If you happen to be in that vicinity and would like to get together, I
can be contacted at the Metechi Palace Hotel.

Lance Fletcher, President
The Free Lance Academy Foundation
http://www.freelance-academy.org
lance@...

******************************************************************
**********************Freelance-News**************************
******************************************************************

Announcing:    FIDES-ET-RATIO   (Faith and Reason)

A List Dedicated to the Reading and Understanding of the Encyclical
"Fides et Ratio" by Pope John Paul II


The Free Lance Academy is pleased to announce the formation of the
fides-et-ratio list and you are cordially invited to subscribe.

You may subscribe to the fides-et-ratio list via e-mail by sending a
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Or, if you prefer, you can join this list by going to the following
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The discussion leader for the fides-et-ratio list is Daniel Scuiry
[Daniel.Scuiry@...].  It was also his idea to create this list.
The following is Daniel Scuiry's description of the intention for the
list.

"The purpose of the fides-et-ratio list is to host a critical reading
of the papal encyclical, "Fides et Ratio (Faith and Reason)". We will
survey the encyclical's text with an aim towards relating it to issues
relavent to philosophers, scientists, academics, religionists and
anyone committed to thoughtful reflection on the meaning of personal
existence: "All men and women ... are in some sense philosophers and
have their own philosophical conceptions with which they direct their
lives. In one way or other, they shape a comprehensive vision and an
answer to the question of life's meaning..." (Fides et Ratio, #30).
Our goal is to offer readers, through the benefit of an open forum,
the opportunity to form their own conscience and make their own
critical judgment on the meaning and implications this encyclical may
have in their lives. Hence this list is open to anyone, regardless of
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meaning and impact in their own lives or the lives of others."

The plan is to complete the reading of Fides et Ration within
approximately four to six months.

Lance Fletcher, President
The Free Lance Academy Foundation
http://www.freelance-academy.org
lance@...

I posted the following msg on the Plato-Parmenides list today, in
response to some discussion going on there. It seemed that it might also
be of interest here in as much as it mentions Aristotle's Metaphysics.

			 * * *

I am looking for texts in which Aristotle opposes himself to
Democritus' atomic theory specifically on the grounds that the
latter would eliminate the substantial unity of many things, as well
as the existence of substantial change. For example, I distinctly
remember texts (but not their location) in which Aristotle states
that according to Democritus, many unified substances would be
no more than "heaps." Any help in locating such specific passages
would be appreciated.

Thank you.
Anthony Crifasi

******************************************************************
**********************Freelance-News**************************
******************************************************************

I am pleased to announce the formation of the Herodotus list and I
invite you to subscribe.

You may subscribe to the herodotus list via e-mail by sending a
message to:

herodotus-subscribe@onelist.com

Or, if you prefer, you can join this list by going to the following
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      http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/herodotus

The purpose of the Herodotus list is to provide a forum for slow
readings and
thoughtful discussions of the "Histories" of Herodotus. (For a brief
discussion
of what I mean by "slow reading," please see my essay at
http://www.freelance-academy.org/slowread.htm.) The discussion leader
for the
Herodotus list will be Jim Costopoulos of Vassar.

For the first few months there will be some attempt to have the
discussion on the list track a seminar on Herodotus that is now under
way at Fordham.

Note:  This message is being sent to all of the lists hosted by The
Free Lance Academy at Onelist.com.  If you are subscribed to more than
one of those lists, you will receive more than one copy of this
message.  I apologize for the duplication.

Lance Fletcher, President
The Free Lance Academy Foundation
http://www.freelance-academy.org
lance@...

Don't send unsolicided e-mail to me

On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:00:41   Edward Little wrote:
From: Edward Little <elittle@...>

Lance's suggestion is a good one, but I would like to see someone else step
forward and act as host[...]
I will try to keep my mouth shut, and be a listener [...] - Ed Little

For two reason , if you don't mind, I would no agree
with you:
        1. each community (cyber or real) has it's
own leader - somebody who - pointed and regarded as
a responsible person (for unlimited time) usually has
no choise and gives up. Usually but no always.
        2. Understanding somebody's [in this time
Aristoteles] way of thinking - discovering and adding
ideas is a long process. It takes time. I know about it. But as a friend of mine
told one day - there is  no in fact people who can, who need, who wish to take
the word "to think" in it's real deepful sense. I have no mind these some
millions: people of words, people of ideas, philosophers. Lance Fletcher told us
that you are the best choise for this chair and I would like to believe him. So,
please, if you can, try to host this place.
                          Agna Lang

    (I'm a new one, inside this list and as an english writing person so afraid
that some parts of my letter
might sounds uncorrectly. If... than I'll try to be more clear next time) A.L.




Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at
http://www.eudoramail.com

Lance's suggestion is a good one, but I would like to see someone else
step forward and act as host, moderator, guide or whatever you wish to
call it, for the next pass. I leaned pretty heavily on the list with my
views the first time around, and anyone who was there knows what they
are, while those who were not can find them out easily enough, and it is
time perhaps for a fresh leadership. I will try to keep my mouth shut,
and be a listener, although that is not always easy for yours truly.
Nevertheless, I will try.

This is also a test msg, to see if it gets to us.

- Ed Little

Slow readers of Aristotle's Metaphysics:

It is possible that the following welcome message is redundant.
It was supposed to have been sent out automatically from the new
server, but because I was half asleep last night when I was
moving the list to the new site I suspect I may have neglected a
small technical point that was necessary to have it sent out, so
I am sending it by hand.

In any case, I am pleased to welcome you, even if it is
redundant.  I think you will find that the new server works much
better than the old one.  The message turnaround time should be
much improved, and also the "digest" and "nomail" options, which
have been often requested, are now available.  In addition,
posted messages are automatically archived, and archives can be
read at the list's "list center" at the Onelist.com website (you
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I urge all subscribers to visit the Onelist.com website and
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One more thing:  Please take note of the "trailer" attached to
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In any case, please refrain from posting administrative messages
to the list.

Now, on to Aristotle.  Is anyone game for starting through the
Metaphysics again?

    Welcome to the aristotle-met list.  I look forward to your
participation.
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    This list is for a slow reading of Aristotle's treatise on
"first philosophy,"
    commonly known as the Metaphysics. For a brief discussion of
what I mean by
    "slow reading," please see my essay at
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    For the reading of the Metaphysics, our discussion leader has
been Edward F.
    Little of Harvey Mudd College.

    This is one of a group of lists hosted by The Free Lance
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--
Lance Fletcher, President
The Free Lance Academy Foundation
for information send message to info@...
http://www.freelance-academy.org
lance@...