----- Original Message -----

From: nehme

To: azb ; arbible@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:49 AM

Subject: Reply on Churches issue

   Hello Dr. Maged

 I thank you for your contribution in this effort of bringing thw word of God to all people through many of your works on the net  . I am Milad Nehme from Lebanon .

I would like to speak about the differences between Christian denominations but it would take books , of course I am not an expert on this task .

but the one responsible about this site seems to be ready to quote from several (Catholic)resources , what seems to fit the subject , of course in the Catholic point of view.

  And this does not mean that the logic being used to prove the theme , is a reasonable one , for example I'll quote a small passage

 

"  Since Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18b), this means that his Church can never pass out of existence. But if the Church ever apostasized by teaching heresy, then it would cease to exist; because it would cease to be Jesus’ Church. Thus the Church cannot teach heresy, " ...

 

 We know that in our days there are hundered of cults and foundation that teaches something about jesus and spirituality , and those are growing in teaching and funding and everything... So it is not wise to say that God is in favor of what they are teaching . and by making an analogy we cannot say that God is in favor of only "the Catholic church"

 

 I have read what Dr. Maged and Dr.William have been writing , and I'm interested in the way that it was presented on both sides and I would like to know from Dr. Maged about the relation between the Coptic Church itself , and Rome's Catholic Church ....

I know that they worship the same God ...... but what about the administrative side ;   or is it just a mere admiration from the side of Dr. Maged ? or is it the whole copts' ?.

 

 I add , if I may , that Mr. Hanna has the right to speak of what he knows about orthodoxy , and that the differences he know about the other C., cannot be merely wiped out from our minds . I don't mean that the pain is not forgotten and it should be , but I am empathizing on the doctrinal side that led to some errors , it in the first place , in the distant past ... ; and I might be wrong about this.

I would like to quote what Mr. Mamdouh have wrote :

"

Dear Drs William and Magued,

 I am happy for your invitation to listen in a spirit of Christian brotherhood. I am impressed by the reforms that occured in the Catholic church at the Vatican II whose fruits are becoming more apparent under the late Pope Paul VI and the current Pope JPII whom I admire for his courage and call for peace and reconciliation not only amnong Christians but among all religions. This was clearly shown in the recent Assisi Conference which was spread over this blessed list.

 As you mentioned Dr Magued the Catholic Church is the largest of all denominations. For me, this not only means power but it means also responsibility. This big church has always been the greatest since the conversion of the Roman Empire. Unfortunately, it had many transgressions towards other smaller churches causing (along with Constantinople) schism which ended by the great schism of East and West. In the 17th and 18th centuries, Rome sent missionaries to the Middle East and founded rival Catholic Patriarchs that withdrew several Copts, Syrians and Armenians from their churches. Today we have 7 Catholic patriarchs in the Middle East for the Copts, Syrians, Chaldeans, Greeks, Armenians, Maronites, Latins. The same is applying today in Russia as you do surely know. Those problems are now enrooted in our lands.

 Upon a visit of Pope Shenouda III (I think in 1972) to the Vatican, Pope Paul VI said that we (the Catholic Church) were mistaken for creating Catholic churches in the Middle East because those weakened the national churches there. Likewise, it was also a great joy for me to read Pope JPII call for reconciliation and public apology for the Catholic church.

 Now I can see unity better. I see Pope Shenouda, willing for unity is gathering the Oriental Orthodox together. Yet the globe's Christian unity cannot be achieved but through the most powerful church. Wounds that lay inside myself and inside people like Dr William have to be re-examined and healed. Apology was a first brilliant step, I know few other positive steps from Rome may lead to the unity of all Apostolic Churches.

 Administration is not a big deal against unity as many people claim. National churches would have their own leaders as we knew in the first centuries, the throne of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. Whether people adopt primacy for Rome or not, I don't think people like JPII would make it a barrier against unity. We learn that decisions of the church were taken in councils like Nicea, Ephesus and Constantinople and not by an upper hand of Rome. We all know how this (primacy) attitude was a major cause of the schism in 451. Please learn from history and do not repeat the same mistakes. Would Rome insist of being Prima Unter Pares let it be a servant to others as our Lord has taught while washing the feet of his diciples.

 I am a Coptic Orthodox and although, history and present attitudes of Catholics towards my church offend me much, I have faith and I trust that Pope Jean-Paul believes in unity that is based on correcting past mistakes. I can now see one Orthodox Catholic church in the future.

 

May the Lord bless ye all. May He bless this list to communicate a message of love and unity,

Shenouda Mamdouh

  "

 

 

----- Original Message -----

 

From: Zeitun-eg.org

To: arbible@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 7:48 PM

Subject: [Zeitun-eg.org] Papal Infallibility - "Even though the Pope would also sin on a personal level and in administrative matters on occasion"

From: http://www.catholic-forum.com/catholicteacher/message.htm

---

Please note, Peter would always retain the truth even though he continued to sin personally like all of us. So too, the role of Pope, built on the "Rock" would always maintain the truth, even though the Pope would also sin on a personal level and in administrative matters on occasion. Christ tells us however, that the successors of Peter would safeguard the truth (Faith) always - Christ's own guarantee that the 'gates of Hell' would not prevail.

 

From: http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

---

Papal Infallibility

The Catholic Church’s teaching on papal infallibility is one which is generally misunderstood by those outside the Church. In particular, Fundamentalists and other "Bible Christians" often confuse the charism of papal "infallibility" with "impeccability." They imagine Catholics believe the pope cannot sin. Others, who avoid this elementary blunder, think the pope relies on some sort of amulet or magical incantation when an infallible definition is due.

 

Given these common misapprehensions regarding the basic tenets of papal infallibility, it is necessary to explain exactly what infallibility is not. Infallibility is not the absence of sin. Nor is it a charism that belongs only to the pope. Indeed, infallibility also belongs to the body of bishops as a whole, when, in moral unity, they solemnly teach a doctrine as true. We have this from Jesus himself, who promised the apostles and their successors the bishops, the magisterium of the Church: "He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16), and "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt. 18:18).

 

(...)

 

It is the Holy Spirit who prevents the pope from officially teaching error, and this charism follows necessarily from the existence of the Church itself. If, as Christ promised, the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church then it must be protected from fundamentally falling into error and thus away from Christ. It must prove itself to be a perfectly steady guide in matters pertaining to salvation.

Of course, infallibility does not include a guarantee that any particular pope won’t "neglect" to teach the truth, or that he will be sinless, or that mere disciplinary decisions will be intelligently made. It would be nice if he were omniscient or impeccable, but his not being so will fail to bring about the destruction of the Church.

But he must be able to teach rightly, since instruction for the sake of salvation is the main function of the Church. For men to be saved, they must know what is to be believed. They must have a perfectly steady rock to build upon and to trust as the source of solemn Christian teaching. And that’s why papal infallibility exists.

Since Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18b), this means that his Church can never pass out of existence. But if the Church ever apostasized by teaching heresy, then it would cease to exist; because it would cease to be Jesus’ Church. Thus the Church cannot teach heresy, meaning that anything it solemnly defines for the faithful to believe is true. This same reality is reflected in the Apostle Paul’s statement that the Church is "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). If the Church is the foundation of religious truth in this world, then it is God’s own spokesman. As Christ told his disciples: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Luke 10:16).

---
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----- Original Message -----

From: nehme

To: azb ; arbible@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:49 AM

Subject: Reply on Churches issue

   Hello Dr. Maged

 I thank you for your contribution in this effort of bringing thw word of God to all people through many of your works on the net  . I am Milad Nehme from Lebanon .

I would like to speak about the differences between Christian denominations but it would take books , of course I am not an expert on this task .

but the one responsible about this site seems to be ready to quote from several (Catholic)resources , what seems to fit the subject , of course in the Catholic point of view.

  And this does not mean that the logic being used to prove the theme , is a reasonable one , for example I'll quote a small passage

 

"  Since Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18b), this means that his Church can never pass out of existence. But if the Church ever apostasized by teaching heresy, then it would cease to exist; because it would cease to be Jesus’ Church. Thus the Church cannot teach heresy, " ...

 

 We know that in our days there are hundered of cults and foundation that teaches something about jesus and spirituality , and those are growing in teaching and funding and everything... So it is not wise to say that God is in favor of what they are teaching . and by making an analogy we cannot say that God is in favor of only "the Catholic church"

 

 I have read what Dr. Maged and Dr.William have been writing , and I'm interested in the way that it was presented on both sides and I would like to know from Dr. Maged about the relation between the Coptic Church itself , and Rome's Catholic Church ....

I know that they worship the same God ...... but what about the administrative side ;   or is it just a mere admiration from the side of Dr. Maged ? or is it the whole copts' ?.

 

 I add , if I may , that Mr. Hanna has the right to speak of what he knows about orthodoxy , and that the differences he know about the other C., cannot be merely wiped out from our minds . I don't mean that the pain is not forgotten and it should be , but I am empathizing on the doctrinal side that led to some errors , it in the first place , in the distant past ... ; and I might be wrong about this.

I would like to quote what Mr. Mamdouh have wrote :

"

Dear Drs William and Magued,

 I am happy for your invitation to listen in a spirit of Christian brotherhood. I am impressed by the reforms that occured in the Catholic church at the Vatican II whose fruits are becoming more apparent under the late Pope Paul VI and the current Pope JPII whom I admire for his courage and call for peace and reconciliation not only amnong Christians but among all religions. This was clearly shown in the recent Assisi Conference which was spread over this blessed list.

 As you mentioned Dr Magued the Catholic Church is the largest of all denominations. For me, this not only means power but it means also responsibility. This big church has always been the greatest since the conversion of the Roman Empire. Unfortunately, it had many transgressions towards other smaller churches causing (along with Constantinople) schism which ended by the great schism of East and West. In the 17th and 18th centuries, Rome sent missionaries to the Middle East and founded rival Catholic Patriarchs that withdrew several Copts, Syrians and Armenians from their churches. Today we have 7 Catholic patriarchs in the Middle East for the Copts, Syrians, Chaldeans, Greeks, Armenians, Maronites, Latins. The same is applying today in Russia as you do surely know. Those problems are now enrooted in our lands.

 Upon a visit of Pope Shenouda III (I think in 1972) to the Vatican, Pope Paul VI said that we (the Catholic Church) were mistaken for creating Catholic churches in the Middle East because those weakened the national churches there. Likewise, it was also a great joy for me to read Pope JPII call for reconciliation and public apology for the Catholic church.

 Now I can see unity better. I see Pope Shenouda, willing for unity is gathering the Oriental Orthodox together. Yet the globe's Christian unity cannot be achieved but through the most powerful church. Wounds that lay inside myself and inside people like Dr William have to be re-examined and healed. Apology was a first brilliant step, I know few other positive steps from Rome may lead to the unity of all Apostolic Churches.

 Administration is not a big deal against unity as many people claim. National churches would have their own leaders as we knew in the first centuries, the throne of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. Whether people adopt primacy for Rome or not, I don't think people like JPII would make it a barrier against unity. We learn that decisions of the church were taken in councils like Nicea, Ephesus and Constantinople and not by an upper hand of Rome. We all know how this (primacy) attitude was a major cause of the schism in 451. Please learn from history and do not repeat the same mistakes. Would Rome insist of being Prima Unter Pares let it be a servant to others as our Lord has taught while washing the feet of his diciples.

 I am a Coptic Orthodox and although, history and present attitudes of Catholics towards my church offend me much, I have faith and I trust that Pope Jean-Paul believes in unity that is based on correcting past mistakes. I can now see one Orthodox Catholic church in the future.

 

May the Lord bless ye all. May He bless this list to communicate a message of love and unity,

Shenouda Mamdouh

  "

 

 

----- Original Message -----

 

From: Zeitun-eg.org

To: arbible@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 7:48 PM

Subject: [Zeitun-eg.org] Papal Infallibility - "Even though the Pope would also sin on a personal level and in administrative matters on occasion"

From: http://www.catholic-forum.com/catholicteacher/message.htm

---

Please note, Peter would always retain the truth even though he continued to sin personally like all of us. So too, the role of Pope, built on the "Rock" would always maintain the truth, even though the Pope would also sin on a personal level and in administrative matters on occasion. Christ tells us however, that the successors of Peter would safeguard the truth (Faith) always - Christ's own guarantee that the 'gates of Hell' would not prevail.

 

From: http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

---

Papal Infallibility

The Catholic Church’s teaching on papal infallibility is one which is generally misunderstood by those outside the Church. In particular, Fundamentalists and other "Bible Christians" often confuse the charism of papal "infallibility" with "impeccability." They imagine Catholics believe the pope cannot sin. Others, who avoid this elementary blunder, think the pope relies on some sort of amulet or magical incantation when an infallible definition is due.

 

Given these common misapprehensions regarding the basic tenets of papal infallibility, it is necessary to explain exactly what infallibility is not. Infallibility is not the absence of sin. Nor is it a charism that belongs only to the pope. Indeed, infallibility also belongs to the body of bishops as a whole, when, in moral unity, they solemnly teach a doctrine as true. We have this from Jesus himself, who promised the apostles and their successors the bishops, the magisterium of the Church: "He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16), and "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt. 18:18).

 

(...)

 

It is the Holy Spirit who prevents the pope from officially teaching error, and this charism follows necessarily from the existence of the Church itself. If, as Christ promised, the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church then it must be protected from fundamentally falling into error and thus away from Christ. It must prove itself to be a perfectly steady guide in matters pertaining to salvation.

Of course, infallibility does not include a guarantee that any particular pope won’t "neglect" to teach the truth, or that he will be sinless, or that mere disciplinary decisions will be intelligently made. It would be nice if he were omniscient or impeccable, but his not being so will fail to bring about the destruction of the Church.

But he must be able to teach rightly, since instruction for the sake of salvation is the main function of the Church. For men to be saved, they must know what is to be believed. They must have a perfectly steady rock to build upon and to trust as the source of solemn Christian teaching. And that’s why papal infallibility exists.

Since Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18b), this means that his Church can never pass out of existence. But if the Church ever apostasized by teaching heresy, then it would cease to exist; because it would cease to be Jesus’ Church. Thus the Church cannot teach heresy, meaning that anything it solemnly defines for the faithful to believe is true. This same reality is reflected in the Apostle Paul’s statement that the Church is "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). If the Church is the foundation of religious truth in this world, then it is God’s own spokesman. As Christ told his disciples: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Luke 10:16).

---
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Dear Dr Magued and my brothers on arbible,

I am impressed by the detailed article you sent. Although it was written in very big font (I am joking). I do agree with you that the unity of the church is a unity in communion not an administrative unity under the Vatican. Because if we follow the same trend, Constantinople calls itself too the New Rome that was conceived by Emperor Constantine the first Roman Christian Emperor. The Ecumenical Patriarch is viewed as the Primus Unter Pares head of the universal (catholic) church "Conversations with Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholmew I - Olivier Clement pg 7-8, ISBN 0-88141-178-7". I did highlight in red the word "catholic" in your message since I understood that you mean the universal church before division (Not specifically todays Vatican).

I would like to say to many of my dear brothers here, beware, the administrative unity of the church is one of the greatest scandals that caused church schism. In early centuries, church heads did like the apostoles has taught. They gathered to agree on dogmas in ecumenical councils. The first council of Jerusalem in fact was headed by St James the First Bishop of Jerusalem and not by St Peter who attended the council Acts 15:14 Yet this didn't mean that he (St James) was the head of A universal church. Primacy of Rome only came due to historical and political reasons which are relevant no more because the new rome now is Washington :)

I believe, that both the Vatican and Constantinople should stop thinking of Primacy and Infallibility of the virtual person of the Pope (in cathedra) and make more positive steps towards recollecting and uniting the wounded body of Christ.

I do not really intend to go in dicussion but I only want to put the hint that Primacy and Infallibility articles would never help uniting the universal church unless you believe that everybody should convert to Catholicism making the apologies of Popes Paul VI and JP II to Orthodox churches and all the efforts spent meanless.

I feel that some of the dogmas of the Catholic and Byzantine churches have to be read in their historical context to be better understood. For Christ's sake do not let those administrative issues hinder the unity of the church since you have the example set by the apostles and early church fathers.

You should also note the reform that took place at Vatican II. Popes are trying to do their best. Yet I think that every step they take forward is balanced by many steps taken backwards by (conservatisionist) Catholic people around the world.

Thank you,
Shenouda Mamdouh

---

azb wrote:

One Perfect God, hence One Perfect Religion, hence One Perfect Church

Truth compels us to admit and believe that there must be and there is only one Religion of God and only one Church of God

If we but give the time and do as the Italian poet, Dante, advised in his epic, Inferno:

"Here, Reader, fix thine eyes well on the truth,"

we will undoubtedly find, if we are honest with ourselves, that after merely a little reasoning we shall be compelled to assent to the above proposition being undeniable. How is this so?

If we but go to the Beginning, and ask ourselves:

‘What do we mean when we say God?

We do NOT mean that inert being disinterested in all things human which the materialists have devised, but the true and living God, a Person, Creator of the world, MOST HAPPY ENTIRELY BY HIMSELF, MOST WISE ORDAINER OF ALL THINGS, a MOST CARING FATHER, THE MOST JUST LAWGIVER, Who punishes the wicked and rewards the virtuous, and, of course, He is in many more things the MOST GOOD, but it is sufficient for us to realise that:

# [1] He is the MOST HAPPY ENTIRELY BY HIMSELF,

# [2] the MOST WISE ORDAINER OF ALL THINGS, a MOST CARING FATHER, and

# [3] THE MOST JUST LAWGIVER, Who punishes the wicked and rewards the virtuous.

1. What is the result of God being the MOST HAPPY ENTIRELY BY HIMSELF?

It means that God has never had, nor has ANY NEED OF US TO EXIST FOR OUR OWN SAKES. It follows from proper reason that He has NOT made the Universe nor us for ourselves but FOR HIMSELF ALONE. This truth He indeed reveals: The Lord hath made all things for himself.

The meaning of these words is unambiguous. Man was created by God for God’s goodness. That this is so is further verified by the explanation of Saintly Doctors, such as St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-74), who commenting on the above words, writes: "God created all things … for his own goodness" (Summa Theologica, I, Q65, A2, O1)

This is very important to realise, for it means that, though God gives us free will, He does NOT give it absolutely as if we were ‘gods’, but WITHIN STRICTLY DEFINED CONDITIONS! We do NOT have freedom of will to do everything we could desire, thus we cannot choose to live on earth for ever, we cannot fix the weather, we often cannot live exactly as we like, either materially or morally, we have to accept His judgment after we die, and many other limitations, and in the end, there is no doubt, that although He INVITES us to ONE WAY OF LIFE, He COMPELS US TO CHOOSE BETWEEN JUST TWO WAYS OF LIFE - BOTH ENTIRELY ACCORDING TO HIS PLANS AND NOT IN THE LEAST OURS.

2. What is the result of God being the MOST WISE ORDAINER OF ALL THINGS, a MOST CARING FATHER?

It means:

Firstly: that He has a definite will or plan for each and every person, and these plans of His are of themselves perfect and absolutely unquestionable by us! And if we disagree with them then we do not know what God is, and, although we may not admit to it, we are more-or-less sick – dust and ashes, made of nothing, yes, of nothing, making ourselves greater than our Creator, saying as did Lucifer, ‘I will not serve’.

Secondly: it means that because He is MOST WISE AND CARING, He has ENSURED THAT, as He is PERFECT AND ONE, THERE IS BUT ONE SET OF PERFECT RULES/DUTIES/COMMANDMENTS by which He COMMANDS US TO LIVE SO THAT WE CAN FULFIL HIS DESIRE, BECAUSE HE HAS MADE US ENTIRELY FOR HIS PLEASURE AND GLORY AND HE ONLY RECEIVES THIS WHEN WE FOLLOW HIS PLANS. If He were not to have done this then He would not be God: not caring, nor perfect, and that is NOT His Nature, though it is most often how many people, through lack of a little thinking, conceive of Him in their minds.

This is extremely important to realise, because:

# IT MEANS THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE SET OF PERFECT RULES/DUTIES/COMMANDMENTS BY WHICH EVERY PERSON MUST LIVE AND DIE!

# AND THIS MEANS THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE RELIGION ACCEPTABLE TO GOD.

# AND IT MEANS THAT ALL OTHER ‘RELIGIONS’ GOD REJECTS AS HUMAN PHILOSOPHIES!

NOW THIS IS MOST IMPORTANT TO REALISE, so that WE DO NOT EVER TALK OF THERE BEING MANY ‘RELIGIONS’ WHICH GOD SUPPORTS AND WITH WHICH HE IS PLEASED. THIS IS UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE. Without any irreverence we can safely say that God cannot support any so-called ‘religion’ other than His Own, for this is the perfect set of rules/duties of His One Perfect Supreme Wisdom. Otherwise He would cease to be God. It is therefore a mistake to propose any contrary opinion: there is then Only One Divine Religion Pleasing to God, which He insists all people find and follow – besides this one, NONE OF THE OTHER RELIGIONS DOES GOD SUPPORT – THEY ALL TEACH AT LEAST ONE IF NOT MORE DOCTRINES OF FAITH AND MORALS WHICH ARE OPPOSED TO HIS PERFECT COMMANDMENTS. This He is bound to condemn. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE THAT HE SHOULD DO OTHERWISE – IF OTHER RELIGIONS WERE TO TEACH EXACTLY WHAT HE TEACHES THEN, OF COURSE, THEY WOULD BE IDENTICAL WITH HIS ONE AND ONLY RELIGION!

From this it also follows that THERE IS ONLY ONE CHURCH WHICH GOD SUPPORTS TO TEACH HIS ONE RELIGION AND TO BE CONTAINED IN HIS ONE PERFECT PLAN, AND ALL OTHER SO-CALLED CHURCHES HE NECESSARILY CONDEMNS. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE THAT HE SHOULD DO OTHERWISE, EVEN THOUGH HE MAY TOLERATE THEIR EXISTENCE.

WHICH IS THE RELIGION THEN WHICH IS THE ONE DIVINE, PLEASING TO GOD AND SUPPORTED BY GOD? How do we find it? Let us recall that God Who is MOST WISE AND CARING, KNOWING OUR WEAKNESSES, MUST HAVE ENSURED THAT IT IS EASY TO DISCOVER HIS ONE AND ONLY RELIGION AND CHURCH. If this is not so, then He is not the most caring, but most careless and unloving; but that is impossible! For we can understand that God is also the MOST JUST LAWGIVER, Who punishes the wicked and rewards the virtuous, and so He could not leave us to make a mistake not through our own fault and then be punished by Him.

3. What is the result of God being the MOST JUST LAWGIVER, Who punishes the wicked and rewards the virtuous.

This means, so that we do not get punished unjustly, that God has attached to His One and Only Religion and Church some special sign or signs by which they can be recognised from all the other ‘religions’ and ‘Churches’.

What is the surest and easiest sign by which to recognise the One and Only Religion of God? It is the sign of:

MIRACLES: Miracles are extraordinary happenings, in which natural laws are suspended or reversed, which can only take place through the intervention of God. "The cause of miracles," St. Thomas Aquinas [Doctor] tells us [Summa Theologica, 2-2, q.178, a.1], "is the Divine Omnipotence which cannot be communicated to any creature."

Now it would be against the Perfect Nature of God to support by miracles any ‘religion’ and ‘church’ which were opposed to His pleasure by their teaching even one falsehood. It follows therefore that GENUINE MIRACLES WILL BE FOUND ONLY AMONG THE FOLLOWERS OF GOD’S ONE AND ONLY RELIGION AND CHURCH.

NOW WE ARE BOUND IN CONSCIENCE UNDER PAIN OF EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT TO SEEK WHICH IS THAT RELIGION AND CHURCH AND TO EMBRACE IT GLADLY AND LOYALLY – IF WE DO NOT THEN WE WILL BE CONDEMNED FOR EVER TO SUFFER.

BECAUSE GOD IS WHAT HE IS, IT IS UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE THAT THERE IS ANY OTHER ANSWER.

EVERY MATURE PERSON OF SOUND MIND IS BOUND TO EXAMINE HIS WAY OF LIFE AND SEE WHETHER HE OR SHE IS WITHOUT ANY DOUBT IN THE ONE AND ONLY CHURCH OF GOD, FOLLOWING HIS ONE AND ONLY RELIGION! HAVE WE DONE THIS? IF NOT, WHY NOT? WHY ARE WE FOLLOWING EITHER NO RULES OR SOME RULES/IDEAS WHICH WE HAVE NOT EXAMINED CAREFULLY? WE DO NOT DO NEGLECT TO EXAMINE A BANK AND THE WAY IT WILL LOOK AFTER OUR MONEY BEFORE WE JOIN IT, THEN WHY DO WE NOT DO THIS WITH OUR MORAL WAY OF LIFE FOR WHICH WE WILL SOON HAVE TO ACCOUNT FOR BEFORE A PERFECTLY JUST JUDGE, AND THAT MEANS THAT WHEN HE JUDGES HE PASSES A SENTENCE WITH PERFECT JUSTICE AND WITHOUT MERCY – FOR MERCY HE SHOWS NOW, WHICH IS THE TIME FOR PERFECT MERCY, BUT JUDGMENT TIME IS TIME FOR THE PERFECT SENTENCE. YES, THE PUNISHMENT HE MAY MAKE LESS IN HIS MERCY, BUT THE SENTENCE CAN ONLY BE ONE OF TWO – THE BLISS OF HEAVEN OR THE PAINS OF HELL.

Now people from all walks of life who examined all religions came to one conclusion. For example what claim can any person make which excuses him from following in the footsteps of the St. Augustines (Doctor, 354-430) and the Cardinal Newmans, the Robert Hugh Bensons, Benjamin Zollis, the Malcolm Muggeridges, the Duchesses of Kent and many others who rejected their unreasoned adherence to unbelief or to some so-called ‘religion’ or false human philosophy and consented to give themselves wholly to the will of God, that is, to take up a life according to His one and only Religion, the Catholic Apostolic Christian Holy Roman Faith!

Are not the situations of other people very similar to that of St. Augustine? He professed the false philosophy of Manicheism, while living an immoral life, enslaved by the vice of lust, as evidenced by his irreverent if not a blasphemous ‘prayer’: "Give me chastity and continence, but not yet." (Confessions, Bk. 8, Ch. 7), and surrounded by Catholic Christians, not the least who was his pious mother, St. Monica. Eventually he heeded God’s call and became a Catholic Christian! Besides St. Augustine, we can call upon thousands of others who refused to sweep-under-the-carpet the truth they knew or heard and assenting to it became Catholic Christians. Let us take from these genuine lovers of truth, the examples of:

# Cardinal Newman and Hugh Benson, both ‘churchmen’ of the Anglican philosophical persuasion, or

# Benjamin Zolli, was the chief Rabbi of Rome during the 2^nd World War, a teacher of Judaism, or

# Malcolm Muggeridge a well-known journalist of no strong adherence to any particular philosophy, or

# the Duchess of Kent, a Royal person, apparently a devotee of the Anglican philosophy?

This spectrum of converts is not exceptional, and it is an easily proven fact that people have converted to God’s Religion, that is, the Catholic Apostolic Roman Faith, from virtually every known so-called ‘religion’ and way of life. Their conversions came about, undoubtedly because at some point in their lives they had a genuinely serious attitude to life and preferred truth to the novelties of man-made philosophies and, hence, they were able to respond to God with an unbiased mind. Thus they demonstrated the irrefutable truth about God’s Religion:

"It cannot be difficult to find out which is the true Religion, if only it be sought with an earnest and unbiased mind; for proofs are abundant and striking."

Let us end with an example from life. When it was suggested to a young man that he could join a community of lay people and have a pleasant life provided he obeyed the rules of the community as organised by some of the elder members, he said he would never do such a thing without a condition. When asked why he would not join, he replied: ‘I do not want and should not wish to be obedient to rules made up by men. They cannot be trusted to be genuinely good. Only if it were guaranteed that the rules were from God and would be kept as God wants them kept would I consider to join such a group"

Should not this be our attitude?

It has been noted that, in general terms, people do not take up God’s one and only Religion, that is the Catholic Apostolic Roman Faith not because it is the mysteries of the this Faith which are an obstacle to conversion, but often it is because they are afraid they will have to give up some pleasure and so do not to examine the truth for fear of giving themselves any trouble or uneasiness. Thus they continue to live contented with the opinion in which they have been educated or been brought up, not checking whether this is right or wrong, and avoiding all such books or conversations as might better inform them.

----- Original Message -----

From:nehme

To: azb ; arbible@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:49 AM

Subject: Reply on Churches issue

    Hello Dr. Maged I thank you for your contribution in this effort of bringing thw word of God to all people through many of your works on the net  . I am Milad Nehme from Lebanon .I would like to speak about the differences between Christian denominations but it would take books , of course I am not an expert on this task .but the one responsible about this site seems to be ready to quote from several (Catholic)resources , what seems to fit the subject , of course in the Catholic point of view.  And this does not mean that the logic being used to prove the theme , is a reasonable one , for example I'll quote a small passage "  Since Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18b), this means that his Church can never pass out of existence. But if the Church ever apostasized by teaching heresy, then it would cease to exist; because it would cease to be Jesus’ Church. Thus the Church cannot teach heresy, " ...  We know that in our days there are hundered of cults and foundation that teaches something about jesus and spirituality , and those are growing in teaching and funding and everything... So it is not wise to say that God is in favor of what they are teaching . and by making an analogy we cannot say that God is in favor of only "the Catholic church"  I have read what Dr. Maged and Dr.William have been writing , and I'm interested in the way that it was presented on both sides and I would like to know from Dr. Maged about the relation between the Coptic Church itself , and Rome's Catholic Church ....I know that they worship the same God ...... but what about the administrative side ;   or is it just a mere admiration from the side of Dr. Maged ? or is it the whole copts' ?.  I add , if I may , that Mr. Hanna has the right to speak of what he knows about orthodoxy , and that the differences he know about the other C., cannot be merely wiped out from our minds . I don't mean that the pain is not forgotten and it should be , but I am empathizing on the doctrinal side that led to some errors , it in the first place , in the distant past ... ; and I might be wrong about this.I would like to quote what Mr. Mamdouh have wrote :"

Dear Drs William and Magued,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I am happy for your invitation to listen in a spirit of Christian brotherhood. I am impressed by the reforms that occured in the Catholic church at the Vatican II whose fruits are becoming more apparent under the late Pope Paul VI and the current Pope JPII whom I admire for his courage and call for peace and reconciliation not only amnong Christians but among all religions. This was clearly shown in the recent Assisi Conference which was spread over this blessed list.

As you mentioned Dr Magued the Catholic Church is the largest of all denominations. For me, this not only means power but it means also responsibility. This big church has always been the greatest since the conversion of the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Roman Empire. Unfortunately, it had many transgressions towards other smaller churches causing (along with Constantinople) schism which ended by the great schism of East and West. In the 17th and 18th centuries, Rome sent missionaries to the Middle East and founded rival Catholic Patriarchs that withdrew several Copts, Syrians and Armenians from their churches. Today we have 7 Catholic patriarchs in the Middle East for the Copts, Syrians, Chaldeans, Greeks, Armenians, Maronites, Latins. The same is applying today in Russia as you do surely know. Those problems are now enrooted in our lands.

Upon a visit of Pope Shenouda III (I think in 1972) to the Vatican, Pope Paul VI said that we (the Catholic Church) were mistaken for creating Catholic churches in the Middle East because those weakened the national churches there. Likewise, it was also a great joy for me to read Pope JPII call for reconciliation and public apology for the Catholic church.

Now I can see unity better. I see Pope Shenouda, willing for unity is gathering the Oriental Orthodox together. Yet the globe's Christian unity cannot be achieved but through the most powerful church. Wounds that lay inside myself and inside people like Dr William have to be re-examined and healed. Apology was a first brilliant step, I know few other positive steps from Rome may lead to the unity of all Apostolic Churches.

Administration is not a big deal against unity as many people claim. National churches would have their own leaders as we knew in the first centuries, the throne of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. Whether people adopt primacy for Rome or not, I don't think people like JPII would make it a barrier against unity. We learn that decisions of the church were taken in councils like Nicea, Ephesus and Constantinople and not by an upper hand of Rome. We all know how this (primacy) attitude was a major cause of the schism in 451. Please learn from history and do not repeat the same mistakes. Would Rome insist of being Prima Unter Pares let it be a servant to others as our Lord has taught while washing the feet of his diciples.

I am a Coptic Orthodox and although, history and present attitudes of Catholics towards my church offend me much, I have faith and I trust that Pope Jean-Paul believes in unity that is based on correcting past mistakes. I can now see one Orthodox Catholic church in the future.

May the Lord bless ye all. May He bless this list to communicate a message of love and unity,

Shenouda Mamdouh  "

 
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----

 

From:Zeitun-eg.org

To:arbible@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 7:48 PM

Subject: [Zeitun-eg.org] Papal Infallibility - "Even though the Pope would also sin on a personal level and in administrative matters on occasion"

 From: http://www.catholic-forum.com/catholicteacher/message.htm

---

Please note, Peter would always retain the truth even though he continued to sin personally like all of us. So too, the role of Pope, built on the "Rock" would always maintain the truth, even though the Pope would also sin on a personal level and in administrative matters on occasion. Christ tells us however, that the successors of Peter would safeguard the truth (Faith) always - Christ's own guarantee that the 'gates of Hell' would not prevail. From:http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

---

Papal InfallibilityThe Catholic Church’s teaching on papal infallibility is one which is generally misunderstood by those outside the Church. In particular, Fundamentalists and other "Bible Christians" often confuse the charism of papal "infallibility" with "impeccability." They imagine Catholics believe the pope cannot sin. Others, who avoid this elementary blunder, think the pope relies on some sort of amulet or magical incantation when an infallible definition is due.Given these common misapprehensions regarding the basic tenets of papal infallibility, it is necessary to explain exactly what infallibility is not. Infallibility is not the absence of sin. Nor is it a charism that belongs only to the pope. Indeed, infallibility also belongs to the body of bishops as a whole, when, in moral unity, they solemnly teach a doctrine as true. We have this from Jesus himself, who promised the apostles and their successors the bishops, the magisterium of the Church: "He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16), and "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt. 18:18).(...)It is the Holy Spirit who prevents the pope from officially teaching error, and this charism follows necessarily from the existence of the Church itself. If, as Christ promised, the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church then it must be protected from fundamentally falling into error and thus away from Christ. It must prove itself to be a perfectly steady guide in matters pertaining to salvation.Of course, infallibility does not include a guarantee that any particular pope won’t "neglect" to teach the truth, or that he will be sinless, or that mere disciplinary decisions will be intelligently made. It would be nice if he were omniscient or impeccable, but his not being so will fail to bring about the destruction of the Church.

But he must be able to teach rightly, since instruction for the sake of salvation is the main function of the Church. For men to be saved, they must know what is to be believed. They must have a perfectly steady rock to build upon and to trust as the source of solemn Christian teaching. And that’s why papal infallibility exists.

Since Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18b), this means that his Church can never pass out of existence. But if the Church ever apostasized by teaching heresy, then it would cease to exist; because it would cease to be Jesus’ Church. Thus the Church cannotteach heresy, meaning that anything it solemnly defines for the faithful to believe is true. This same reality is reflected in the Apostle Paul’s statement that the Church is "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). If the Church is the foundation of religious truth in this world, then it is God’s own spokesman. As Christ told his disciples: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Luke 10:16).
 

---
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----- Original Message -----

From: Shenouda Mamdouh

To: arbible@yahoogroups.com

Cc: Dr William Aziz

Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 12:06 PM

Subject: Re: [Zeitun-eg.org] Re: Reply on Churches issue - One Perfect God, hence One Perfect Religion, hence One Perfect Church

Dear Dr Magued and my brothers on arbible,

I am impressed by the detailed article you sent. Although it was written in very big font (I am joking). I do agree with you that the unity of the church is a unity in communion not an administrative unity under the Vatican. Because if we follow the same trend, Constantinople calls itself too the New Rome that was conceived by Emperor Constantine the first Roman Christian Emperor. The Ecumenical Patriarch is viewed as the Primus Unter Pares head of the universal (catholic) church "Conversations with Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholmew I - Olivier Clement pg 7-8, ISBN 0-88141-178-7". I did highlight in red the word "catholic" in your message since I understood that you mean the universal church before division (Not specifically todays Vatican).

I would like to say to many of my dear brothers here, beware, the administrative unity of the church is one of the greatest scandals that caused church schism. In early centuries, church heads did like the apostoles has taught. They gathered to agree on dogmas in ecumenical councils. The first council of Jerusalem in fact was headed by St James the First Bishop of Jerusalem and not by St Peter who attended the council Acts 15:14 Yet this didn't mean that he (St James) was the head of A universal church. Primacy of Rome only came due to historical and political reasons which are relevant no more because the new rome now is Washington :)

I believe, that both the Vatican and Constantinople should stop thinking of Primacy and Infallibility of the virtual person of the Pope (in cathedra) and make more positive steps towards recollecting and uniting the wounded body of Christ.

I do not really intend to go in dicussion but I only want to put the hint that Primacy and Infallibility articles would never help uniting the universal church unless you believe that everybody should convert to Catholicism making the apologies of Popes Paul VI and JP II to Orthodox churches and all the efforts spent meanless.

I feel that some of the dogmas of the Catholic and Byzantine churches have to be read in their historical context to be better understood. For Christ's sake do not let those administrative issues hinder the unity of the church since you have the example set by the apostles and early church fathers.

You should also note the reform that took place at Vatican II. Popes are trying to do their best. Yet I think that every step they take forward is balanced by many steps taken backwards by (conservatisionist) Catholic people around the world.

Thank you,
Shenouda Mamdouh

---

azb wrote:

One Perfect God, hence One Perfect Religion, hence One Perfect Church

Truth compels us to admit and believe that there must be and there is only one Religion of God and only one Church of God

If we but give the time and do as the Italian poet, Dante, advised in his epic, Inferno:

"Here, Reader, fix thine eyes well on the truth,"

we will undoubtedly find, if we are honest with ourselves, that after merely a little reasoning we shall be compelled to assent to the above proposition being undeniable. How is this so?

If we but go to the Beginning, and ask ourselves:

‘What do we mean when we say God?

We do NOT mean that inert being disinterested in all things human which the materialists have devised, but the true and living God, a Person, Creator of the world, MOST HAPPY ENTIRELY BY HIMSELF, MOST WISE ORDAINER OF ALL THINGS, a MOST CARING FATHER, THE MOST JUST LAWGIVER, Who punishes the wicked and rewards the virtuous, and, of course, He is in many more things the MOST GOOD, but it is sufficient for us to realise that:

# [1] He is the MOST HAPPY ENTIRELY BY HIMSELF,

# [2] the MOST WISE ORDAINER OF ALL THINGS, a MOST CARING FATHER, and

# [3] THE MOST JUST LAWGIVER, Who punishes the wicked and rewards the virtuous.

1. What is the result of God being the MOST HAPPY ENTIRELY BY HIMSELF?

It means that God has never had, nor has ANY NEED OF US TO EXIST FOR OUR OWN SAKES. It follows from proper reason that He has NOT made the Universe nor us for ourselves but FOR HIMSELF ALONE. This truth He indeed reveals: The Lord hath made all things for himself.

The meaning of these words is unambiguous. Man was created by God for God’s goodness. That this is so is further verified by the explanation of Saintly Doctors, such as St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-74), who commenting on the above words, writes: "God created all things … for his own goodness" (Summa Theologica, I, Q65, A2, O1)

This is very important to realise, for it means that, though God gives us free will, He does NOT give it absolutely as if we were ‘gods’, but WITHIN STRICTLY DEFINED CONDITIONS! We do NOT have freedom of will to do everything we could desire, thus we cannot choose to live on earth for ever, we cannot fix the weather, we often cannot live exactly as we like, either materially or morally, we have to accept His judgment after we die, and many other limitations, and in the end, there is no doubt, that although He INVITES us to ONE WAY OF LIFE, He COMPELS US TO CHOOSE BETWEEN JUST TWO WAYS OF LIFE - BOTH ENTIRELY ACCORDING TO HIS PLANS AND NOT IN THE LEAST OURS.

2. What is the result of God being the MOST WISE ORDAINER OF ALL THINGS, a MOST CARING FATHER?

It means:

Firstly: that He has a definite will or plan for each and every person, and these plans of His are of themselves perfect and absolutely unquestionable by us! And if we disagree with them then we do not know what God is, and, although we may not admit to it, we are more-or-less sick – dust and ashes, made of nothing, yes, of nothing, making ourselves greater than our Creator, saying as did Lucifer, ‘I will not serve’.

Secondly: it means that because He is MOST WISE AND CARING, He has ENSURED THAT, as He is PERFECT AND ONE, THERE IS BUT ONE SET OF PERFECT RULES/DUTIES/COMMANDMENTS by which He COMMANDS US TO LIVE SO THAT WE CAN FULFIL HIS DESIRE, BECAUSE HE HAS MADE US ENTIRELY FOR HIS PLEASURE AND GLORY AND HE ONLY RECEIVES THIS WHEN WE FOLLOW HIS PLANS. If He were not to have done this then He would not be God: not caring, nor perfect, and that is NOT His Nature, though it is most often how many people, through lack of a little thinking, conceive of Him in their minds.

This is extremely important to realise, because:

# IT MEANS THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE SET OF PERFECT RULES/DUTIES/COMMANDMENTS BY WHICH EVERY PERSON MUST LIVE AND DIE!

# AND THIS MEANS THAT THERE IS ONLY ONE RELIGION ACCEPTABLE TO GOD.

# AND IT MEANS THAT ALL OTHER ‘RELIGIONS’ GOD REJECTS AS HUMAN PHILOSOPHIES!

NOW THIS IS MOST IMPORTANT TO REALISE, so that WE DO NOT EVER TALK OF THERE BEING MANY ‘RELIGIONS’ WHICH GOD SUPPORTS AND WITH WHICH HE IS PLEASED. THIS IS UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE. Without any irreverence we can safely say that God cannot support any so-called ‘religion’ other than His Own, for this is the perfect set of rules/duties of His One Perfect Supreme Wisdom. Otherwise He would cease to be God. It is therefore a mistake to propose any contrary opinion: there is then Only One Divine Religion Pleasing to God, which He insists all people find and follow – besides this one, NONE OF THE OTHER RELIGIONS DOES GOD SUPPORT – THEY ALL TEACH AT LEAST ONE IF NOT MORE DOCTRINES OF FAITH AND MORALS WHICH ARE OPPOSED TO HIS PERFECT COMMANDMENTS. This He is bound to condemn. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE THAT HE SHOULD DO OTHERWISE – IF OTHER RELIGIONS WERE TO TEACH EXACTLY WHAT HE TEACHES THEN, OF COURSE, THEY WOULD BE IDENTICAL WITH HIS ONE AND ONLY RELIGION!

From this it also follows that THERE IS ONLY ONE CHURCH WHICH GOD SUPPORTS TO TEACH HIS ONE RELIGION AND TO BE CONTAINED IN HIS ONE PERFECT PLAN, AND ALL OTHER SO-CALLED CHURCHES HE NECESSARILY CONDEMNS. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE THAT HE SHOULD DO OTHERWISE, EVEN THOUGH HE MAY TOLERATE THEIR EXISTENCE.

WHICH IS THE RELIGION THEN WHICH IS THE ONE DIVINE, PLEASING TO GOD AND SUPPORTED BY GOD? How do we find it? Let us recall that God Who is MOST WISE AND CARING, KNOWING OUR WEAKNESSES, MUST HAVE ENSURED THAT IT IS EASY TO DISCOVER HIS ONE AND ONLY RELIGION AND CHURCH. If this is not so, then He is not the most caring, but most careless and unloving; but that is impossible! For we can understand that God is also the MOST JUST LAWGIVER, Who punishes the wicked and rewards the virtuous, and so He could not leave us to make a mistake not through our own fault and then be punished by Him.

3. What is the result of God being the MOST JUST LAWGIVER, Who punishes the wicked and rewards the virtuous.

This means, so that we do not get punished unjustly, that God has attached to His One and Only Religion and Church some special sign or signs by which they can be recognised from all the other ‘religions’ and ‘Churches’.

What is the surest and easiest sign by which to recognise the One and Only Religion of God? It is the sign of:

MIRACLES: Miracles are extraordinary happenings, in which natural laws are suspended or reversed, which can only take place through the intervention of God. "The cause of miracles," St. Thomas Aquinas [Doctor] tells us [Summa Theologica, 2-2, q.178, a.1], "is the Divine Omnipotence which cannot be communicated to any creature."

Now it would be against the Perfect Nature of God to support by miracles any ‘religion’ and ‘church’ which were opposed to His pleasure by their teaching even one falsehood. It follows therefore that GENUINE MIRACLES WILL BE FOUND ONLY AMONG THE FOLLOWERS OF GOD’S ONE AND ONLY RELIGION AND CHURCH.

NOW WE ARE BOUND IN CONSCIENCE UNDER PAIN OF EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT TO SEEK WHICH IS THAT RELIGION AND CHURCH AND TO EMBRACE IT GLADLY AND LOYALLY – IF WE DO NOT THEN WE WILL BE CONDEMNED FOR EVER TO SUFFER.

BECAUSE GOD IS WHAT HE IS, IT IS UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE THAT THERE IS ANY OTHER ANSWER.

EVERY MATURE PERSON OF SOUND MIND IS BOUND TO EXAMINE HIS WAY OF LIFE AND SEE WHETHER HE OR SHE IS WITHOUT ANY DOUBT IN THE ONE AND ONLY CHURCH OF GOD, FOLLOWING HIS ONE AND ONLY RELIGION! HAVE WE DONE THIS? IF NOT, WHY NOT? WHY ARE WE FOLLOWING EITHER NO RULES OR SOME RULES/IDEAS WHICH WE HAVE NOT EXAMINED CAREFULLY? WE DO NOT DO NEGLECT TO EXAMINE A BANK AND THE WAY IT WILL LOOK AFTER OUR MONEY BEFORE WE JOIN IT, THEN WHY DO WE NOT DO THIS WITH OUR MORAL WAY OF LIFE FOR WHICH WE WILL SOON HAVE TO ACCOUNT FOR BEFORE A PERFECTLY JUST JUDGE, AND THAT MEANS THAT WHEN HE JUDGES HE PASSES A SENTENCE WITH PERFECT JUSTICE AND WITHOUT MERCY – FOR MERCY HE SHOWS NOW, WHICH IS THE TIME FOR PERFECT MERCY, BUT JUDGMENT TIME IS TIME FOR THE PERFECT SENTENCE. YES, THE PUNISHMENT HE MAY MAKE LESS IN HIS MERCY, BUT THE SENTENCE CAN ONLY BE ONE OF TWO – THE BLISS OF HEAVEN OR THE PAINS OF HELL.

Now people from all walks of life who examined all religions came to one conclusion. For example what claim can any person make which excuses him from following in the footsteps of the St. Augustines (Doctor, 354-430) and the Cardinal Newmans, the Robert Hugh Bensons, Benjamin Zollis, the Malcolm Muggeridges, the Duchesses of Kent and many others who rejected their unreasoned adherence to unbelief or to some so-called ‘religion’ or false human philosophy and consented to give themselves wholly to the will of God, that is, to take up a life according to His one and only Religion, the Catholic Apostolic Christian Holy Roman Faith!

Are not the situations of other people very similar to that of St. Augustine? He professed the false philosophy of Manicheism, while living an immoral life, enslaved by the vice of lust, as evidenced by his irreverent if not a blasphemous ‘prayer’: "Give me chastity and continence, but not yet." (Confessions, Bk. 8, Ch. 7), and surrounded by Catholic Christians, not the least who was his pious mother, St. Monica. Eventually he heeded God’s call and became a Catholic Christian! Besides St. Augustine, we can call upon thousands of others who refused to sweep-under-the-carpet the truth they knew or heard and assenting to it became Catholic Christians. Let us take from these genuine lovers of truth, the examples of:

# Cardinal Newman and Hugh Benson, both ‘churchmen’ of the Anglican philosophical persuasion, or

# Benjamin Zolli, was the chief Rabbi of Rome during the 2^nd World War, a teacher of Judaism, or

# Malcolm Muggeridge a well-known journalist of no strong adherence to any particular philosophy, or

# the Duchess of Kent, a Royal person, apparently a devotee of the Anglican philosophy?

This spectrum of converts is not exceptional, and it is an easily proven fact that people have converted to God’s Religion, that is, the Catholic Apostolic Roman Faith, from virtually every known so-called ‘religion’ and way of life. Their conversions came about, undoubtedly because at some point in their lives they had a genuinely serious attitude to life and preferred truth to the novelties of man-made philosophies and, hence, they were able to respond to God with an unbiased mind. Thus they demonstrated the irrefutable truth about God’s Religion:

"It cannot be difficult to find out which is the true Religion, if only it be sought with an earnest and unbiased mind; for proofs are abundant and striking."

Let us end with an example from life. When it was suggested to a young man that he could join a community of lay people and have a pleasant life provided he obeyed the rules of the community as organised by some of the elder members, he said he would never do such a thing without a condition. When asked why he would not join, he replied: ‘I do not want and should not wish to be obedient to rules made up by men. They cannot be trusted to be genuinely good. Only if it were guaranteed that the rules were from God and would be kept as God wants them kept would I consider to join such a group"

Should not this be our attitude?

It has been noted that, in general terms, people do not take up God’s one and only Religion, that is the Catholic Apostolic Roman Faith not because it is the mysteries of the this Faith which are an obstacle to conversion, but often it is because they are afraid they will have to give up some pleasure and so do not to examine the truth for fear of giving themselves any trouble or uneasiness. Thus they continue to live contented with the opinion in which they have been educated or been brought up, not checking whether this is right or wrong, and avoiding all such books or conversations as might better inform them.

----- Original Message -----

From:nehme

To: azb ; arbible@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:49 AM

Subject: Reply on Churches issue

    Hello Dr. Maged I thank you for your contribution in this effort of bringing thw word of God to all people through many of your works on the net  . I am Milad Nehme from Lebanon .I would like to speak about the differences between Christian denominations but it would take books , of course I am not an expert on this task .but the one responsible about this site seems to be ready to quote from several (Catholic)resources , what seems to fit the subject , of course in the Catholic point of view.  And this does not mean that the logic being used to prove the theme , is a reasonable one , for example I'll quote a small passage "  Since Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18b), this means that his Church can never pass out of existence. But if the Church ever apostasized by teaching heresy, then it would cease to exist; because it would cease to be Jesus’ Church. Thus the Church cannot teach heresy, " ...  We know that in our days there are hundered of cults and foundation that teaches something about jesus and spirituality , and those are growing in teaching and funding and everything... So it is not wise to say that God is in favor of what they are teaching . and by making an analogy we cannot say that God is in favor of only "the Catholic church"  I have read what Dr. Maged and Dr.William have been writing , and I'm interested in the way that it was presented on both sides and I would like to know from Dr. Maged about the relation between the Coptic Church itself , and Rome's Catholic Church ....I know that they worship the same God ...... but what about the administrative side ;   or is it just a mere admiration from the side of Dr. Maged ? or is it the whole copts' ?.  I add , if I may , that Mr. Hanna has the right to speak of what he knows about orthodoxy , and that the differences he know about the other C., cannot be merely wiped out from our minds . I don't mean that the pain is not forgotten and it should be , but I am empathizing on the doctrinal side that led to some errors , it in the first place , in the distant past ... ; and I might be wrong about this.I would like to quote what Mr. Mamdouh have wrote :"

Dear Drs William and Magued,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I am happy for your invitation to listen in a spirit of Christian brotherhood. I am impressed by the reforms that occured in the Catholic church at the Vatican II whose fruits are becoming more apparent under the late Pope Paul VI and the current Pope JPII whom I admire for his courage and call for peace and reconciliation not only amnong Christians but among all religions. This was clearly shown in the recent Assisi Conference which was spread over this blessed list.

As you mentioned Dr Magued the Catholic Church is the largest of all denominations. For me, this not only means power but it means also responsibility. This big church has always been the greatest since the conversion of the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Roman Empire. Unfortunately, it had many transgressions towards other smaller churches causing (along with Constantinople) schism which ended by the great schism of East and West. In the 17th and 18th centuries, Rome sent missionaries to the Middle East and founded rival Catholic Patriarchs that withdrew several Copts, Syrians and Armenians from their churches. Today we have 7 Catholic patriarchs in the Middle East for the Copts, Syrians, Chaldeans, Greeks, Armenians, Maronites, Latins. The same is applying today in Russia as you do surely know. Those problems are now enrooted in our lands.

Upon a visit of Pope Shenouda III (I think in 1972) to the Vatican, Pope Paul VI said that we (the Catholic Church) were mistaken for creating Catholic churches in the Middle East because those weakened the national churches there. Likewise, it was also a great joy for me to read Pope JPII call for reconciliation and public apology for the Catholic church.

Now I can see unity better. I see Pope Shenouda, willing for unity is gathering the Oriental Orthodox together. Yet the globe's Christian unity cannot be achieved but through the most powerful church. Wounds that lay inside myself and inside people like Dr William have to be re-examined and healed. Apology was a first brilliant step, I know few other positive steps from Rome may lead to the unity of all Apostolic Churches.

Administration is not a big deal against unity as many people claim. National churches would have their own leaders as we knew in the first centuries, the throne of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. Whether people adopt primacy for Rome or not, I don't think people like JPII would make it a barrier against unity. We learn that decisions of the church were taken in councils like Nicea, Ephesus and Constantinople and not by an upper hand of Rome. We all know how this (primacy) attitude was a major cause of the schism in 451. Please learn from history and do not repeat the same mistakes. Would Rome insist of being Prima Unter Pares let it be a servant to others as our Lord has taught while washing the feet of his diciples.

I am a Coptic Orthodox and although, history and present attitudes of Catholics towards my church offend me much, I have faith and I trust that Pope Jean-Paul believes in unity that is based on correcting past mistakes. I can now see one Orthodox Catholic church in the future.

May the Lord bless ye all. May He bless this list to communicate a message of love and unity,

Shenouda Mamdouh  "

 
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----

 

From:Zeitun-eg.org

To:arbible@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 7:48 PM

Subject: [Zeitun-eg.org] Papal Infallibility - "Even though the Pope would also sin on a personal level and in administrative matters on occasion"

 From: http://www.catholic-forum.com/catholicteacher/message.htm

---

Please note, Peter would always retain the truth even though he continued to sin personally like all of us. So too, the role of Pope, built on the "Rock" would always maintain the truth, even though the Pope would also sin on a personal level and in administrative matters on occasion. Christ tells us however, that the successors of Peter would safeguard the truth (Faith) always - Christ's own guarantee that the 'gates of Hell' would not prevail. From:http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

---

Papal InfallibilityThe Catholic Church’s teaching on papal infallibility is one which is generally misunderstood by those outside the Church. In particular, Fundamentalists and other "Bible Christians" often confuse the charism of papal "infallibility" with "impeccability." They imagine Catholics believe the pope cannot sin. Others, who avoid this elementary blunder, think the pope relies on some sort of amulet or magical incantation when an infallible definition is due.Given these common misapprehensions regarding the basic tenets of papal infallibility, it is necessary to explain exactly what infallibility is not. Infallibility is not the absence of sin. Nor is it a charism that belongs only to the pope. Indeed, infallibility also belongs to the body of bishops as a whole, when, in moral unity, they solemnly teach a doctrine as true. We have this from Jesus himself, who promised the apostles and their successors the bishops, the magisterium of the Church: "He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16), and "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt. 18:18).(...)It is the Holy Spirit who prevents the pope from officially teaching error, and this charism follows necessarily from the existence of the Church itself. If, as Christ promised, the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church then it must be protected from fundamentally falling into error and thus away from Christ. It must prove itself to be a perfectly steady guide in matters pertaining to salvation.Of course, infallibility does not include a guarantee that any particular pope won’t "neglect" to teach the truth, or that he will be sinless, or that mere disciplinary decisions will be intelligently made. It would be nice if he were omniscient or impeccable, but his not being so will fail to bring about the destruction of the Church.

But he must be able to teach rightly, since instruction for the sake of salvation is the main function of the Church. For men to be saved, they must know what is to be believed. They must have a perfectly steady rock to build upon and to trust as the source of solemn Christian teaching. And that’s why papal infallibility exists.

Since Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18b), this means that his Church can never pass out of existence. But if the Church ever apostasized by teaching heresy, then it would cease to exist; because it would cease to be Jesus’ Church. Thus the Church cannotteach heresy, meaning that anything it solemnly defines for the faithful to believe is true. This same reality is reflected in the Apostle Paul’s statement that the Church is "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). If the Church is the foundation of religious truth in this world, then it is God’s own spokesman. As Christ told his disciples: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Luke 10:16).
 

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When Theophilos of Alexandria Excommunicated John Chrysostom

Dear Shenouda,

In your message today, you said:
>by (conservatisionist) Catholic people around the world
To be fair one must also mention conservatives from all denominations. Personally, I consider conservatism (not to be confused with being proud of your national Church and her traditions) to be one form of aggression. Aggression is not necessarily physical, e.g., a person can morally kill another person. www.dictionary.com defines aggression as:
1. The act of initiating hostilities or invasion, e.g., accusing others of being heretics.
2. The practice or habit of launching attacks.
3. Hostile or destructive behaviour or actions, e.g., Orthodox conservatives who prohibit people from listening to Protestant tapes of simple (biblical) Christian Songs, e.g., The Better Life Team.
(Italics are mine.)
I like Haya.org policy. There you will find Protestant and Orthodox sermons and songs. Some sermons present very extreme opinions (e.g., Fr. Makary Yonan preaching that wine and TV are 100% sin; no exceptions), but again this is freedom of non-aggressive speech and that's how people get to know, love and understand each other, which I think is mandatory before any communion can become possible.

Also you said:
>I feel that some of the dogmas of the Catholic and Byzantine churches have to be read in their historical context to be better understood.
Again to be fair this should also be equally applied to the Coptic Orthodox Church.

Did you know that Pope Theophilos, twenty third  patriarch of Alexandria of Alexandria (385-412 AD), falsely accused St. John Chrysostom of treason and surreptitiously plotted his exile. St. John's last words were "Glory to God for everything!" Soon after St. John's death, his two greatest "enemies" were punished by God. Theophilos, Patriarch of Alexandria, went mad, and Eudoxia was deposed by the Emperor Arcadius, who was largely responsible for St. John's election as patriarch. Eudoxia developed sores and worms came from them. The stench could not be disguised by perfumes or incense, nor could people bear to pass close to her house.

Sources of text in red:
http://www.chrysostom.org/life.html
http://www.goarch.org/access/calendar/November/November_13.html

I think full communion should ultimately take place and become manifest at the level of ordinary lay people like you and me, not just at the Church administrative level. Let's learn how to forget the past and forgive each other.

In Christ,
--Maged N Kamel Boulos

  MarkSadek@... wrote:

From: MarkSadek@...
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 09:51:01 EST
Subject: Missionary Annoucement
To: undisclosed-recipients:;


Dear brothers & sisters,

From time to time many of us wonder about how we can serve God - some
of us try to build churches, some of us donate money to organizations or the
poor, some of us serve the kids in our churches, and some decide to go on
missionary trips to bring others to the love and joy of Christ. This summer,
a small group of servants have decided on missionary in Africa with His Grace
Bishop Paul and we would like to open the opportunity to you to join us. So
if you think you are interested in missionary work, do not fear that you are
not worthy of it because we all aren't worthy to serve. It's only through
the grace of God that we may serve him. So please provide your contact
information (name, church, address, phone, & especially email) to either
akateko@... if you are in the New York area or mariam315@... if
you are in the Philadelphia area. Please let us know when we would be a good
time to meet. We are thinking of having a meeting for all those who think
they might be interested in the beginning of February, and we would like
everyone to be able to attend. Thank you and may God bless you in all your
work and services.

Your brothers & sisters in Christ

L'Agpeya - Prières des Heures de l'Eglise Copte Orthodoxe (Copyright © 1994. L'Eglise Copte Orthodoxe de Saint Georges & Saint Joseph. Montréal, Québec, Canada. Tous droits réservés)

Préface

Introduction de chaque heure

Prime

La terce

La sexte

La none

Le vésperal

Complies

La prière de El-Séttar

La prière du milieu de la nuit

      Le premier service

      Le deuxième service

      Le troisième service

      L'absolution pour les prêtres

Prières

      Prière du repentir

      Prière avant la confession

      Prière après la confession

      Prière avant la communion

      Prière après la communion

      Prière pour que Dieu me guide

Introduction du Site   A   Livres de l'Eglise Copte

Just in case some of you don't know this already, Dr. Geoff Carlin, a very devout Catholic GP from Scotland, UK, was the person who bought me the first domain for Zeitun Web site--http://www.zeitun.org (still working) and ample server space and bandwidth and invited me to move files from GeoCities.com servers and expand the service on 31 August 2000. This coincided with the start of Assiut Apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

I then moved Zeitun Web site to a larger server with more bandwidth and got a second domain name from the new hosting company: http://www.zeitun-eg.org on 8 September 2001 (feast of Our Lady's birthday according to Roman Catholic calendar). The service will probably move again (transparently) to its own real independent physical server very soon (at same current hosting company), God willing, due to bandwidth issues.

I will always remain very grateful to Dr. Geoff Carlin for all what he did, and for their constant prayers, and invite you to visit their site: http://www.lovesembrace.com. I would also like to thank him for his words of true wisdom that he has just sent to this group.

Glory be to Jesus Christ.

In Christ,
--Maged

I am very happy to read your message. May the Lord bless your life and put this Christian spirit in our church responsibles that we may restore communion among all our apostolic churches.

Pray for me,
Shenouda Mamdouh

Geoff Carlin wrote:

Dear friends,                  It distresses me to see 19th Century thinking declared as good and proper in the 21st Century. I am Roman Catholic but would not have the affrontery and gall to claim my religion is the "one and only true religion" before which other faiths must "bend the knee", as it were; nor do I subscribe to a dogma of Papal infallibility which arose in the face of seemingly unanswerable movements of intellectualism and atheism (before Newman entered the arena!). Further, I think there is a danger of substituting the 'perfect practice of religion' in place of love of God! What a trap to fall into! Religion in essence is man's attempt to relate to God and by definition must be imperfect, despite the Truth and Mystery which adherents try to follow. I am impressed by the commentator to the group who talks of the need to draw together the broken, fractured body of Christ which Christianity mystically forms - this is the first step in the difficult process ahead, a process which must invite contributions from all the world's major Faiths. Christianity has been in schism from the earliest times of its existence. I see the unifying principle inherent in Ecumenism coming through our Mother Mary, as She pilgrimages through time to the second coming of Her Son, Jesus, gathering all her scattered children on the way, pointing to Her Son as our Saviour, that is everybody. In the meantime we must respect each other's traditions and beliefs, otherwise there will simply be more trouble as fanatics impose more 'dictats' which can only lead to further division and schism! Mary appears to Christians (all varieties!), Moslems (all varieties), Jews (all varieties) and all others at the apparition sites in Egypt. Her message is that God, Her Son, is for everyone. In all her apparitions she encourages people to love Her Son and live better lives for God - SHE HAS NEVER INSTRUCTED PEOPLE TO BECOME CATHOLICS! - She asks us to be Christian, in imitation of Christ. May God Bless you all, in His Mercy, Geoff Carlin.

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> > > There is a nice music bed underneath the
>video, but it's not necessary
>for
> > > viewing.
> > >
> > > You can watch this without a sound card.
> > >
> > > Double click on this url:
>http://168.143.173.209/IWGnet.swf
> > >
> >
>
>





sincerely;
Mamdooh Z. Gayid


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

>From: Thetruth@...
>To: Thetruth@...
>Subject: Petition to stop teaching Islam to our 7th graders
>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 23:49:28 EST
>
>Dear Brothers and Sisters:
>  As children return to school , following the Christmas break, 7th graders
>in
>a growing number of public schools, who are not permitted to wear a cross
>or
>speak the name of Jesus, will be required to attend an intensive three week
>course on Islam; a course in which students are mandated to learn the
>tenets
>of Islam, study the important figures of the faith, wear a robe, adopt a
>Muslim name and stage their own Jihad.
>We  must all unite in opposing this serious situation.  I urge all of you
>to
>visit this website and sign the letter to California governor to stop
>teaching our children Islamic religion in the school.
>Please also forward this message to everybody in your address book.
>
><<A
>HREF="http://www.aclj.net/threshold_np/e_trans.cfm?dn=1008&source=2013&CFID=207\
0423&CFTOKEN=52199512>">http://www.aclj.net/threshold_np/e_trans.cfm?dn=1008&sou\
rce=2013&
>CFID=2070423&CFTOKEN=52199512">
>http://www.aclj.net/threshold_np/e_trans.cfm?dn=1008&source=2013&CFID=2070423&
>CFTOKEN=52199512>http://www.aclj.net/threshold_np/e_trans.cfm?dn=1008&
>source=2013&CFID=2070423&CFTOKEN=52199512</A>
>
>
>
>





sincerely;
Mamdooh Z. Gayid


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

>From: emad habib <emadahabib@...>
>To: samwel fanous <sam.fanous@...>, mamdooh gayid
><mzgayid@...>,  abrahim gendy <abegendy@...>,  Arsany
>Ragheb Habashy <arsanyr@...>,  nagi henein <nhenein01@...>,
>  Bassem Iskander <black_moses91@...>,  adel kelada
><adelkelada@...>, manal kelada <manalkelada66@...>
>Subject: Fwd: Issue 54 :Barid el Sama
>Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:18:25 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>Note: forwarded message attached.
>
>
>=====
>EMAD A. HABIB
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
>http://auctions.yahoo.com





sincerely;
Mamdooh Z. Gayid


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

"A brother who was insulted by another brother came to Abba Sisoes, and said
to him: 'I was hurt by my brother, and I want to avenge myself.' The old man
tried to console him and said: 'Don't do that, my child. Rather leave
vengeance to God.' But he said: 'I will not quit until I avenge myself.'
Then
the old man said: 'Let us pray, brother;' and standing up, he said: 'O God,
we no longer need You to take care of us since we now avenge ourselves.'
Hearing these words, the brother fell at the feet of the old man and said:
'I
am not going to fight with my brother any more. Forgive me, Abba.'"

             Abba Sisoes.

--------------------------------------------------

"A quick-tempered man acts foolishly, And a man of wicked intentions is
hated."  Proverbs 14:17

--------------------------------------------------

The Bible reading for the 27th of Tuba, February 4th, is:
4 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the
body,
and after that have no more that they can do. 5 But I will show you whom you
should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell;
yes, I say to you, fear Him! 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two copper
coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God. 7 But the very hairs of
your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value
than
many sparrows. 8 "Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him
the
Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God. 9 But he who denies
Me
before men will be denied before the angels of God. 10 And anyone who speaks
a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who
blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven. 11 Now when
they
bring you to the synagogues and magistrates and authorities, do not worry
about how or what you should answer, or what you should say. 12 For the Holy
Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say." (Luke
12:4-12)
Commemoration of Archangel Soriel.

The Bible reading for the 28th of Tuba, February 5th, is: Luke 11:53-12:12
Martyrdom of St. Clement and St. Caou.

---------------------------------------------------

Prayer Requests:

Please remember Daniel Morse in your prayers.
Please remember Ibtesam Hweamel in your prayers.
Please remember our brother John in your prayers. John had a brain tumor
removed recently. He is a young servant with 4 young kids.

Please pray for America and Egypt.
Please pray for the victims of the attacks and their families.
Please pray for the peace of the world.

---------------------------------------------------
Further transmissions to you by the sender of the Spiritual Words may be
stopped at no cost to you by <A
HREF="mailto:MarkSadek@...%3Fsubject=remove">CLICKING HERE</A>

----- Original Message Headers -----
From: <MarkSadek@...>
To: <undisclosed-recipients:>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 12:27 AM
Subject: Spiritual Words.


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Peter Zakhari

Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 12:32 AM

To: st_kyrillos_vi@...

Subject: Re: St Kyrillos VI

 

Dear Sir..
    I wanted to inform you about the miracle that happened to me..it was in January 2001..
God is a good witness of all what i say...and may be this miracle a good lesson for all of those youth having a low level faith in Jesus and his Saints..
    It all starts in August 2000...when i failed in IGCSE and it s an english secondary degree..which i was studying in Kuwait and Egypt..and this is a degree which has a strange system where we choose the subjects that we want and we have certain times 2 have exams in them...June and November..but you must put in mind that i was a good example of and exceeding student and a progressing one althroughout my years in school..and was getting very high marks..
    Before the results of these subjects in August i went to Saint Mina Monastary..and to the windmill..and prayed there..
    A day before the results were published,i found Pope kyrillos' picture where he was in sorrow and looked very sad which i took and put beside me to know how to sleep..coz i was very anxious that night..
    Next day was the catastroph...when the results was published..as i failed...i started crying...just having the impression of an unfair God and Pope Kyrillos..
I even thought of suiciding..coz i was depressed and had no goals to shoot at..as i saw everyone of my age has entered faulties and i m the only one thats didn t..
    I had to think what to do..and i ve spent the worst days that i could have spent in my entire life..i was just thinking that where s the fair and kind Jesus..and Pope Kyrillos..My parents and myself kept thinking what to do...until we found a good solution...i should take the required subjects in November in order i could enter a university in the second term which starts at Febuary 2001..
    So i returned to Kuwait which i left since 99 to take these 2 subjects..and exam in them...and the exams were to be taken in November as i said...so i only had 2 months to cover all the required areas in the two subjects..and these were my worst 2 months but the turning point in my life..I ve spent them all alone without all my friends as i was affected by this point so much as i was a social person...I didn t even visit the church at all..BUT...i started reading in Pope Kyrillos' life and miracles...and i cried each time i started reading..and say,"you have done all this..and u don t want to do a little thing for me"..
    The subjects were away too hard for me..and very few people had passed in them..but there was no other alternatives infront of me..I didn t even study them before..coz i didn t choose the  subjects that i ve failed in..i chose 2 entire new ones..
    The two months had passed and i ve finished the exams..and started to go to the church..and each time i entered it people started to look at me and as if they wanted to tell me you lazy boy..everyone is in a university except you..
    I stayed like that for about 1 months..and left to Egypt again at the beginning of January..and there were only a few days for the results to be published..I had to wait..but this time it was completely different..I wasn t anxious at all...and i was very relaxed and self convinced that  m going to pass..and had a greater faith...THAN EVER..so that i had a very good sleep every single night...I went to the windmill a couple of days before the results..and cried again..saying,"come on dad...it s your time to put your hand on my wounds".."i want to finish please"..
    One or two days before the results..i found a picture of Pope Kyrillos..but this time he was in his Priest clothes and appeared to be happy and smiling..I relaxed even more and smiled to the picture..
    At the night before the result...i woke up and feel very worried and anxious so this time i ve learned the lesson..i ve put some oil on my head and slept immediately after it..Suddenly the phone rang..i looked at the clock and it was 10.30am i waited for 2 or 3 more rings then with an encouragement from Jesus..i picked up the phone..and there was my sister from Kuwait phoning and saying.."hey Peter..congratulations dear...not only you have passed but also with high grades.."and she was crying...i did to answering back.."really..thanx God thanx Pope Kyrillos..at last.."Dad also talked to me and was very happy and also mum..these were the moments i was waiting for...and they were beautiful moments..they were the hands of this holy man put on my big wound..i kept crying for a long time..just don t know what to do for this beautiful Saint..
    He didn t stop working...i ve joined Faculty Of Pharmacy in one of the private universities..and this was also a miracle..as this university had a cooperation with U.S. universities and had the same systems..and i could leave at anytime to states..as my brother did his equivelancy and planning to leave to states as well..
    Here i am in my second year in college and very happy in Egypt and thinking of not leaving at all..just to be beside the windmill..My House..
His miracles continue with me day after day...and thanx God i passed these two years with good grades...and my parents are thanking God everyday about this..plus i m living alone with my brother but as he s a doctor he has 6 shifts a week in the hospital...so i only see him once a week...but never fely lonely but supported from this beautiful father..Pope Kyrillos...his pictures are filling my room...and also he s filling my whole life..
    I wanted to point on another important thing...While i was in Kuwait..and studying on my desk...there was Pope Kyrillos' picture on it...and he was holding a cross..and i was always telling him in the picture.."i want to finish please"..
I felt as if he s moving his head saying..."yes i will SON"..and was making a cross sign with his cross..i stared at him..and said,"if i passed i m going to write this miracle and these signs you r giving me.."
    It s a bit late i know..but at the end i m trying to return a little thing of what he gave me...
    A very important...touching phrase that he said in one of his books that i ve read...and really touched me...and cry everytime i read or wrote it...and hope every single person facing a problem which reduced his faith in God must read..
    "God...who in the past ordered the sea and wind and so great quietness had develop..So..he could NOW order the sea of wounds and wind of problems to be quiet..so great quietness will develop"..

    "Allah allazzy ammar albahr weh al reeh fa sar hedoo'o azeem..hakaza howa qader al'an and ya'mor bahr al tagarob wah al reeh allaty lel alam an tahda'a fa yaseer hedoo'o 3azeem.."
     May God Bless you all...and remember me in Your prayers fathers...i really need it...
                            Yours Sincerely,
                             Peter Zakhary

It is true that he says very nice words about the importance of church unity to become one universal apostolic church, yet difference is raised where he is mentioning that unity is administration rather than communion. I myself read about early bishops of the Apostolic church. We know about the 7 angels of churches (revelation), we know about the Jerusalem Council, we know about Timothy among many other national church bishops. St Peter was not a head directing them all otherwise it would have been mentioned somehow. Did he make a revision of Gospels and Epistles before being spread. Did he hold ecumenical councils to revise what is said or written. Weren't people like St Paul, St James and St John (Revelation) all independantly (and guided by the Holy Ghost) contributing to the unity of the church thought and spirit?

He is also mentioning that the One Head would say always the truth in councils and avoid division. We all know that St Peter had a different personal position from that that was sentenced by the council yet he respected the council's decision. Even today, Vatican granted national (catholic) churches partial autocephaly. To me this proves a failure to direct a universal church with rigid common standards. Wasn't that obvious in Vatican II? It seems to me that people do not want to have Christ as common head of their churches. They want a human that is perfect and infallible to replace Christ on earth. I remember that Christ said to ALL his apostles. I shall send ye another comforter, the Holy Ghost that the Father sends in my name. His spirit abides in all church angels and speaks to them directly. It is true that bishops in different nations have chosen a bishop to be their Primus and asked the help of the Holy Spirit through practices like the blessed lot or similar practices, yet this bishop is still conceived by all churches to hold the same episcopal degree of any bishop. I do have documents of pratices in the early church but I feel we should stop such a debate that leads to nothing since people on the list do not hold any official ecclesiastical responsibility.

I opened my heart to accept all apostolic churches and feel very offended when reading messages from people believing to hold the whole and only truth. I don't think such an attitude contributes much to church unity. May we pray for the reform also of our Coptic church that needs a lot of internal reform.

Sincerely,
Shenouda Mamdouh

May God bless you. Thanks for the message.

----- Original Message -----
From: "mamdooh gayid" <mzgayid@...>
To: <medhatgabriel@...>; <103613.3431@...>;
<arbible@yahoogroups.com>; <asaad@...>; <arafail1@...>;
<azer@...>; <bassemfouad@...>; <hanyfouad@...>;
<FHabib@...>; <gaiyad@...>; <gemb1980@...>;
<georgi_nabil@...>; <ges2000@...>; <girgawy@...>;
<jneisaac@...>; <aneese@...>; <mandra@...>;
<missaol@...>; <MOUNIR-MIK@...>; <msvip_2000@...>;
<habibabdel@...>; <nazih1@...>; <ophadece@...>;
<radamisg@...>; <ramozo@...>; <sameras@...>;
<samuelsaleeb@...>; <sho7773@...>; <TheCopts@...>;
<TheTruth@...>; <UserLisa9750@...>; <wafik_gayed@...>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 10:28 AM
Subject: [Zeitun-eg.org] Fwd: Issue 54 :Barid el Sama


>
>
>
> >From: emad habib <emadahabib@...>
> >To: samwel fanous <sam.fanous@...>, mamdooh gayid
> ><mzgayid@...>,  abrahim gendy <abegendy@...>,  Arsany
> >Ragheb Habashy <arsanyr@...>,  nagi henein
<nhenein01@...>,
> >  Bassem Iskander <black_moses91@...>,  adel kelada
> ><adelkelada@...>, manal kelada <manalkelada66@...>
> >Subject: Fwd: Issue 54 :Barid el Sama
> >Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:18:25 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >
> >Note: forwarded message attached.
> >
> >
> >=====
> >EMAD A. HABIB
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
> >http://auctions.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
> sincerely;
> Mamdooh Z. Gayid
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> arbible-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

DEARS,IN CHRISTH...+ 

 THANKS FOR ALLL!

GOD BLESS YOURS!

I NEED PRAYERS FOR ME .

SINCERELY,

PABLO MONTAÑA

----- Original Message -----

From: adrian montaña

To: arbible@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 2:23 PM

Subject: Re: [Zeitun-eg.org] Please Read, Think, Print and Share with all others. God Bless You.

DEARS,IN CHRISTH...+ 

 THANKS FOR ALLL!

GOD BLESS YOURS!

I NEED PRAYERS FOR ME .

SINCERELY,

PABLO MONTAÑA

---

Do You Yahoo!?
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Hope everyone has a great day in the Lord.

I thought you might enjoy these powerpoint
presentations.
They are beautiful and peaceful.  Also an excellent
tool for evangelization.

http://www.interviewwithgod.com/psalm23.htm

Rose


PS
sorry if there is still some other message on this, I
didn't want to loose the copy addresss so I just
erased this message


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Dear Lord Jesus,

As you reached out to touch so many that were ill or
hurting and healed their infimities and sufferings,
reach out now and touch those that have asked for
prayers especially Adrian.  That the light of your
continence may shine upon them and through them and
grant them your peace.


--- "Fr. Abraam Sleman" <frabraam@...>
wrote:
> May God bless you.
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: adrian montaña
>   To: arbible@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 2:23 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Zeitun-eg.org] Please Read, Think,
> Print and Share with all others. God Bless You.
>
>
>
>   DEARS,IN CHRISTH...+
>
>    THANKS FOR ALLL!
>
>   GOD BLESS YOURS!
>
>   I NEED PRAYERS FOR ME .
>
>   SINCERELY,
>
>   PABLO MONTAÑA
>
>
>
>
>
>
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