anubiasdesign : Messages : 18097-18126 of 24863

Hey Gang,

I got back from the ACA at about 4 am. I'm putting fish away this morning and will get to emails as soon as I can. There are a lot of hundreds of emails to go through so if you're waiting for a response from me, please be patient and know that I will get back to you.

Thanks,

Mark

Reply | Messages in this Topic (26)

#18098

From: "johnqperdue" <perdue@...>
Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 3:55 pm
Subject: unsubscribe

johnqperdue

What does it take to unsubscribe?  I've filled out the unsubscribe email 5-6
times without sucess.

Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)

#18099

From: "Gerald" <gbpottern@...>
Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 9:13 pm
Subject: Re: unsubscribe

gbpottern

With YahooGroups you unsubscribe Yourself.

Go to:  http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups
It will list all the YahooGroups you are a member of,
click on the group you want to leave,
click Edit Membership (small font at the top),
click Leave Group button (bottom right).

OR you can just switch your "Step 2 Message Delivery" option to "Web Only" so
you can still be a memeber and use the group whenever you want, but not get any
emails.

--- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, "johnqperdue" <perdue@...> wrote:
>
> What does it take to unsubscribe?  I've filled out the unsubscribe email 5-6
times without sucess.
>

Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)

#18100

From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...>
Date: Mon Aug 3, 2009 9:21 pm
Subject: Re: Re: unsubscribe/Try this

harryfisherman

Go to the group site. Beside the group name click on edit membership, it's in blue. Then go to the very bottom of the page far right where it says leave group. Click that. A page will pop up asking if your sure, click leave group again. That's it your outta here.

Harry

--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Gerald <gbpottern@...> wrote:

From: Gerald <gbpottern@...>
Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: unsubscribe
To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 5:13 PM

With YahooGroups you unsubscribe Yourself.

Go to: http://groups. yahoo.com/ mygroups
It will list all the YahooGroups you are a member of,
click on the group you want to leave,
click Edit Membership (small font at the top),
click Leave Group button (bottom right).

OR you can just switch your "Step 2 Message Delivery" option to "Web Only" so you can still be a memeber and use the group whenever you want, but not get any emails.

--- In anubiasdesign@ yahoogroups. com, "johnqperdue" <perdue@...> wrote:
>
> What does it take to unsubscribe? I've filled out the unsubscribe email 5-6 times without sucess.
>

Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)

#18101

From: Anubias Design <anubiasdesign@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 12:33 am
Subject: New Stock List

anubiasdesign

Hey Gang,

Here's the current stock list. Please email me offlist at anubiasdesign@... with any questions or to place orders.

Thanks,

Mark

Reply | Messages in this Topic (75)

#18102

From: Anubias Design <anubiasdesign@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 12:56 am
Subject: Altum Season is Here!

anubiasdesign

It's altum angel time, ladies and gentlemen. Pricing for this season will be $25 each or 10/$200 for small fish and $30 each or 10/$250 for mediums. I am expecting the first shipment to arrive next week for shipping on to you the week of August 16th. Please send any questions or orders to me offlist at anubiasdesign@.... I will be posting a complete list of available species from Colombia later this week.

Thanks,

Mark

Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)

#18103

From: Anubias Design <anubiasdesign@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 1:14 am
Subject: relisting

anubiasdesign

Larry,

Thanks for the heads up. Let's try this again.

Mark

Anubias Design
Current Stocklist
anubiasdesign@...

8/3/2009
Specials
Copella carsevenensis		W	$3.00
Betta splendens	Super Delta Females	TR	$3.00
Corydoras longipinnis	Long Finned Cory Cat	W	$7.50

Anabantoids			each
Macropodus opercularis	Paradise Fish		$1.50
Trichopsis pumilus	Sparkling Gourami	W	$1.50

Bettas - Mouthbrooders
Betta falx		W	$6.00
Betta krataios		W	$35/pr
Betta prima		W	$9.00

Botias & Loaches
Botia (Yasuhikotakia) sidthimunki	Dwarf Botia	W	$10.00
Pseudogastromyzon sp.	new and undescribed	W	$10.00

Catfish - Callichthyidae
Corydoras adolfoi	F1	TR	$9.00
Corydoras longipinnis	Long Finned Cory	W	$13.00
Corydoras pygmaeus	Pigmy Cory Cat	W	$1.50
Scleromystax barbatus	F1	TR	$10.00

Catfish - Loricariidae
Ancistrus sp.	Long Fin Bristle Nose - XXL - pairs	TR	$75/pr
Ancistrus sp.	Albino Long Fin Bristle Nose - XXL - pair	TR	$
Otocinclus affinis	Oto	W	$1.50
Pseudohemiodon sp. Peru		W	$35.00

Catfish - Others
Pelteobagrus ornatus	Ornate Pigmy Cat	W	$3.50

Characins
Copella carsevenensis		W	$4.00
Hyphessobrycon amapaensis	3 Lined Tetra - rare and gorgeous!	TR	$8.00
Myleus schomburgki	Black Banded Silver Dollar - SM	W	$12.50
Serapinnus kriegi		W	$3.00

Cichlids - Angelfish
Pterophyllum scalare	Peruvian Altum	W	$25.00

Cichlids - Dwarf
Apistogramma agassizi	Santa - gold head - German Bred	TR	$35/pr
Apistogramma agassizi	Triple Red	TR	$25/pr
Apistogramma barlowi	Mouthbrooder - F1	TR	$35/pr
Apistogramma hoignei 'arauca'		TR	$25/pr
Apistogramma honglsoi	Rostrich	TR	$30/pr
Apistogramma sp. Black Chin	Black Chin	W	$30/pr
Apistogramma sp. Breitbinden	Breitbinden - German Bred	TR	$60/pr
Laetacara curviceps	Curviceps	TR	$4.00
Mikrogeophagus altispinosa	Bolivian Ram	TR	$3.50
Mikrogeophagus ramirezi	Ram	W	$4.00
Nannacara aureocephalus	German Bred	TR	$16.00
Pelvicachromis sacrimontis	German Bred	TR	$22/pr
Pelvicachromis sp 'yellow pulcher'		W	$22/pr
Pelvicachromis sp. 'blue fin spotted'		W	$26/pr
Pelvicachromis taenatius Lobe		W	$24/pr

Cichlids - Other New World
Amatitlania sp.	Honduran Red Point	TR	$4.00
Cichlasoma boliviensis	Bolivian Acara	TR	$6.00
Geophagus altifrons	Curua - German Bred	TR	$18.00
Geophagus crassilabris	German Bred	TR	$15.00

Cyprinids
Boraras urophthalmoides		W	$1.75
Danio rerio	Zebra Danio	W	$1.50

Livebearers
Micropoecilia sp.	3 Spot Micro Livebearer	TR	$20/pr
Poecilia salvatoris	Liberty Molly - German Bred	TR	$6.50

Cold Water
Lepomis gibbosus	Pumpkinseed Sunfish - German Bred	TR	$6.00
Lepomis megalotis	Long Ear Sunfish	TR	$5.00
Phoxinus phoxinus	Eurasian Minnow	TR	$4.50

Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)

#18104

From: Larry Tagrin <BizEcology@...>
Date: Sun Aug 2, 2009 5:26 pm
Subject: I'm concerned

bizecology

My first spate of fish breeding happened during my middle and high school years.� From 1960 - 1966 I bred a number of different species, including Blue Gouramies, Bettas, a variety of South American cichlids, and, of course, the typical live-bearers.� I was not heavily involved during college, but got back into the hobby during the early 1970's and have stayed with it ever since.

During the 1960's my bettas occasionally threw deformed young.� Some had split tails and in some the fin membranes were so deteriorated that the fin rays stuck out well beyond the fin itself.� Both of these were considered culls and were treated as such.� These were deformities that rendered the fish either less able to properly swim or were more disease prone.� Now I find that these two deformities have become prized strains that are seriously judged.� In cichlids we find deformed hybrids (red parrot cichlids and others) and now I see that even catfish hybrids are being flogged on Aquabid.

With all of the wonderful fish produced in nature, why do commercial breeders have to pervert the genome of a species to create expensive ornaments?

I realize that this will offend some people, but I believe it represents a significant voice in the hobby that has not been heard from due to competing commercial interests.

Larry
--
Keep the books,
Burn the censors

#18105

From: Larry Tagrin <BizEcology@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 12:57 am
Subject: Re: New Stock List

bizecology

No list.

�

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Anubias Design <anubiasdesign@...> wrote:

Hey Gang,

Here's the current stock list.� Please email me offlist at anubiasdesign@... with any questions or to place orders.

Thanks,

Mark

--
Keep the books,
Burn the censors

Reply | Messages in this Topic (75)

#18106

From: Robert Panerio <robert_panerio@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 1:39 am
Subject: Re: I'm concerned

robert_panerio

I look at it like this. I do not fancy half the wild fish everyone is paying good money for. I do not like the fish with shortened spines like parrots and balloon mollies and that god awful angel ram cross. There are a lot of people out there paying some big money for plecos and koi and even selectively bred angels like the koi, blues and blacks.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I do not hold it against anyone for raising any of the above or anything for that matter. To each his/her own.... Live and let live.... You collect\keep\breed\show whatever you want and don't let anyone tell you what is good/bad/right/wrong. Which I am sure you don't!!!

There are more people than not out there that think we are all crazy for our fish obsessions.

At least in the betta hobby we keep our wild species and domesticated species seperate. I do not know how many fish I fed to my cullers that I purchased from people that were crosses or just plain crap fish.

I am more concerned with people who try to tell people what to breed\keep\collect and what not to. Or to call someone elses bueaty's deformed! Or just plain out looking at things from an elitist point of view. This is a hobby for enjoyment and fun not some master speices, there is is only one way to do it, that is just wrong affair.

You have spoken mostly intelligent cordial subjects in the past except now. Peace on you! And love what you love! As will I and everyone else with their own free will.

Rob

--- On Sun, 8/2/09, Larry Tagrin <BizEcology@...> wrote:

From: Larry Tagrin <BizEcology@...>
Subject: [anubiasdesign] I'm concerned
To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 10:26 AM

My first spate of fish breeding happened during my middle and high school years. From 1960 - 1966 I bred a number of different species, including Blue Gouramies, Bettas, a variety of South American cichlids, and, of course, the typical live-bearers. I was not heavily involved during college, but got back into the hobby during the early 1970's and have stayed with it ever since.

During the 1960's my bettas occasionally threw deformed young. Some had split tails and in some the fin membranes were so deteriorated that the fin rays stuck out well beyond the fin itself. Both of these were considered culls and were treated as such. These were deformities that rendered the fish either less able to properly swim or were more disease prone. Now I find that these two deformities have become prized strains that are seriously judged. In cichlids we find deformed hybrids (red parrot cichlids and others) and now I see that even catfish hybrids are being flogged on Aquabid.

With all of the wonderful fish produced in nature, why do commercial breeders have to pervert the genome of a species to create expensive ornaments?

I realize that this will offend some people, but I believe it represents a significant voice in the hobby that has not been heard from due to competing commercial interests.

Larry
--
Keep the books,
Burn the censors

#18107

From: "Gordon C.. Snelling" <myrmecophile@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 1:44 am
Subject: Re: I'm concerned

entomology_ants

Larry im with you regarding culls and such.
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--



California Desert Ants <http://www.desertants.org>

New World Army Ants <http://www.armyants.org>

Notes From Underground <http://www.notesfromunderground.org>

United States Neivamyrmex <http://armyants.org/festschrift/usneiva.pdf>

#18108

From: "David Williams" <ingg1196@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 1:52 am
Subject: Re: I'm concerned

getacluenecro

It doesn't offend. It is an interesting topic, one that seems to create fervor in cichlid keeprs especially. Tough to get a lot of them to simply talk about it without it getting heated for whatever reason. Your view is definitely not a silent one, let's put it that way. ;)

For my part, I look at it not much differently than dog strains, sorta. There are those that scoff at Labradoodles, and others that think the ingenuity of cross breeding for desirable properties is a boon.

If Neon Blue Rams and Flowerhorns are your thing, then go for it, is my personal view.

This hobby is filled with both dedicated perservists, whom I respect, and also those who experiment in breeding selectively and cross breeding, and I respect them, too - Crystal Red Shrimp, hybridized plant species, being two examples of selective breeding and/or hybridization that I acquire personally.

It is ironic that people like, say, take Gasser for instance, is looked upon as something of a plant guru, and a lot of that has to do with what a lot of the purist fishkeepers scoff at when done with fish. Being a planted tank guy, I see some similarities of practice there, maybe others don't.

----- Original Message -----

From: Larry Tagrin

To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 1:26 PM

Subject: [anubiasdesign] I'm concerned

My first spate of fish breeding happened during my middle and high school years. From 1960 - 1966 I bred a number of different species, including Blue Gouramies, Bettas, a variety of South American cichlids, and, of course, the typical live-bearers. I was not heavily involved during college, but got back into the hobby during the early 1970's and have stayed with it ever since.

During the 1960's my bettas occasionally threw deformed young. Some had split tails and in some the fin membranes were so deteriorated that the fin rays stuck out well beyond the fin itself. Both of these were considered culls and were treated as such. These were deformities that rendered the fish either less able to properly swim or were more disease prone. Now I find that these two deformities have become prized strains that are seriously judged. In cichlids we find deformed hybrids (red parrot cichlids and others) and now I see that even catfish hybrids are being flogged on Aquabid.

With all of the wonderful fish produced in nature, why do commercial breeders have to pervert the genome of a species to create expensive ornaments?

I realize that this will offend some people, but I believe it represents a significant voice in the hobby that has not been heard from due to competing commercial interests.

Larry
--
Keep the books,
Burn the censors

#18109

From: "David Williams" <ingg1196@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 1:53 am
Subject: Re: I'm concerned

getacluenecro

Okay, that was meant to say preservists - got ten thumbs there for a second....

----- Original Message -----

From: David Williams

To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:52 PM

Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] I'm concerned

It doesn't offend. It is an interesting topic, one that seems to create fervor in cichlid keeprs especially. Tough to get a lot of them to simply talk about it without it getting heated for whatever reason. Your view is definitely not a silent one, let's put it that way. ;)

For my part, I look at it not much differently than dog strains, sorta. There are those that scoff at Labradoodles, and others that think the ingenuity of cross breeding for desirable properties is a boon.

If Neon Blue Rams and Flowerhorns are your thing, then go for it, is my personal view.

This hobby is filled with both dedicated perservists, whom I respect, and also those who experiment in breeding selectively and cross breeding, and I respect them, too - Crystal Red Shrimp, hybridized plant species, being two examples of selective breeding and/or hybridization that I acquire personally.

It is ironic that people like, say, take Gasser for instance, is looked upon as something of a plant guru, and a lot of that has to do with what a lot of the purist fishkeepers scoff at when done with fish. Being a planted tank guy, I see some similarities of practice there, maybe others don't.

----- Original Message -----

From: Larry Tagrin

To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 1:26 PM

Subject: [anubiasdesign] I'm concerned

My first spate of fish breeding happened during my middle and high school years. From 1960 - 1966 I bred a number of different species, including Blue Gouramies, Bettas, a variety of South American cichlids, and, of course, the typical live-bearers. I was not heavily involved during college, but got back into the hobby during the early 1970's and have stayed with it ever since.

During the 1960's my bettas occasionally threw deformed young. Some had split tails and in some the fin membranes were so deteriorated that the fin rays stuck out well beyond the fin itself. Both of these were considered culls and were treated as such. These were deformities that rendered the fish either less able to properly swim or were more disease prone. Now I find that these two deformities have become prized strains that are seriously judged. In cichlids we find deformed hybrids (red parrot cichlids and others) and now I see that even catfish hybrids are being flogged on Aquabid.

With all of the wonderful fish produced in nature, why do commercial breeders have to pervert the genome of a species to create expensive ornaments?

I realize that this will offend some people, but I believe it represents a significant voice in the hobby that has not been heard from due to competing commercial interests.

Larry
--
Keep the books,
Burn the censors

#18110

From: Steve_01 <steve_01@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 2:12 am
Subject: Re: I'm concerned

animatorguy_...

On 8/2/2009 10:26:15 AM, bizecology@... wrote:
  >
  > I realize that this will offend some people, but I believe it
represents a
  > significant voice in the hobby that has not been heard from due to
competing
  > commercial interests.

  > Larry


One of the few times I actually agree with you  ;)

#18111

From: Anubias Design <anubiasdesign@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 2:28 am
Subject: Hybrids

anubiasdesign

Hey Gang,

The interesting thing about this discussion is that some are generally accepted while others are vilified. You are extremely unlikely to find a pure Xiphophorus helleri, X. maculatus or X. variatus in the aquarium trade at this time. These 3 species have been extensively hybridized to create the color forms we know today. The same is true of the various mollies of the genus Poecilia. Our beloved Betta splendens is a result of crossbreeding splendens, imbellis, smaragdina and maybe others. While I may be perfectly willing to sell these fish that we are all accustomed to, I shudder at the thought of selling flowerhorns, parrot cichlids, red tail cat X tiger shovelnose crosses or anything that is a recent cross. I also don't have any problem selling plant cultivars. That is a process that has been going on for hundreds if not thousands of years. So, is it the rejection of new crosses or protecting the species I already like that makes me feel the way I do? I don't know. I know I just don't like to see new hybrid fish created intentionally. Will we all approve of that practice if imports of fish are cut off and the only way we can get new types is to create hybrids? Many of us may not know the answer to that until we reach that bridge.

Mark

ps You all should have seen The Hybrid Menace at the ACA convention. This was a hilarious satire of the Star Wars and Spaceballs movies that featured Obi Wayne Leibel.

#18112

From: Robert Panerio <robert_panerio@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 2:37 am
Subject: Re: Hybrids

robert_panerio

So Mark you wouldn't sell my lyretail, sword tail, sailfin, mickey mouse, tuxedo, triband, gold dust, albino wag, baloon variatus?

LMAO!!!

Rob

--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Anubias Design <anubiasdesign@...> wrote:

From: Anubias Design <anubiasdesign@...>
Subject: [anubiasdesign] Hybrids
To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 7:28 PM

Hey Gang,

The interesting thing about this discussion is that some are generally accepted while others are vilified. You are extremely unlikely to find a pure Xiphophorus helleri, X. maculatus or X. variatus in the aquarium trade at this time. These 3 species have been extensively hybridized to create the color forms we know today. The same is true of the various mollies of the genus Poecilia. Our beloved Betta splendens is a result of crossbreeding splendens, imbellis, smaragdina and maybe others. While I may be perfectly willing to sell these fish that we are all accustomed to, I shudder at the thought of selling flowerhorns, parrot cichlids, red tail cat X tiger shovelnose crosses or anything that is a recent cross. I also don't have any problem selling plant cultivars. That is a process that has been going on for hundreds if not thousands of years. So, is it the rejection of new crosses or protecting the species I already like that makes me feel the way I do? I don't know. I know I just don't like to see new hybrid fish created intentionally. Will we all approve of that practice if imports of fish are cut off and the only way we can get new types is to create hybrids? Many of us may not know the answer to that until we reach that bridge.

Mark

ps You all should have seen The Hybrid Menace at the ACA convention. This was a hilarious satire of the Star Wars and Spaceballs movies that featured Obi Wayne Leibel.

#18113

From: Steve_01 <steve_01@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 2:48 am
Subject: Re: I'm concerned

animatorguy_...

On 8/3/2009 6:39:26 PM, Robert Panerio (robert_panerio@...) wrote:
  >
  > I am more concerned with people who try to tell people what to
breed\keep\collect and what not to.  Or to call someone elses bueaty's
deformed!  Or just plain out looking at > > things from an elitist point
of view.  This is a hobby for enjoyment and fun not some master speices,
there is is only one way to do it, that is just wrong affair.

Any time a breeder puts together high quality specimens selected for
their size/shape/color, they are engaging in a form of Eugenics even if
it is Silver Angel to Silver Angel.

I fully endorse the cross breeding/color breeding done with Discus,
Angels etc.  But I'm also quite passionate about plain old WILD strains
as well.  However I'll agree with Larry on this, some of these strains
being sold ARE deformities. That isn't being Elitist, it's just stating
fact.  One raging debate which I have largely determined to stay out of
was the Bulldog Discus strains coming out of Asia.  I've seen some
pretty heated arguments that in person probably would have ended in
homicide.  The available evidence tends to support that bulldogs are a
victim of a spinal deformity that has been fostered by breeders looking
to exploit something new. I choose to stick to something a bit more
close to nature.

I tend to just ignore listings for Flower Horns, Bulldogs etc.  If
someone wants them, they won't be getting them from me. Nature makes
it's own hybrids, and more often than not, better than the average
breeder can.   :)

#18114

From: Anubias Design <anubiasdesign@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 3:07 am
Subject: Re: Hybrids

anubiasdesign

Rob,

It depends. Is that a single swordtail or a double swordtail?

Mark

--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Robert Panerio <robert_panerio@...> wrote:

From: Robert Panerio <robert_panerio@...>
Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Hybrids
To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 10:37 PM

So Mark you wouldn't sell my lyretail, sword tail, sailfin, mickey mouse, tuxedo, triband, gold dust, albino wag, baloon variatus?

LMAO!!!

Rob

--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Anubias Design <anubiasdesign@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Anubias Design <anubiasdesign@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [anubiasdesign] Hybrids
To: anubiasdesign@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 7:28 PM

Hey Gang,

The interesting thing about this discussion is that some are generally accepted while others are vilified. You are extremely unlikely to find a pure Xiphophorus helleri, X. maculatus or X. variatus in the aquarium trade at this time. These 3 species have been extensively hybridized to create the color forms we know today. The same is true of the various mollies of the genus Poecilia. Our beloved Betta splendens is a result of crossbreeding splendens, imbellis, smaragdina and maybe others. While I may be perfectly willing to sell these fish that we are all accustomed to, I shudder at the thought of selling flowerhorns, parrot cichlids, red tail cat X tiger shovelnose crosses or anything that is a recent cross. I also don't have any problem selling plant cultivars. That is a process that has been going on for hundreds if not thousands of years. So, is it the rejection of new crosses or protecting the species I already like that makes me feel the way I do? I don't know. I know I just don't like to see new hybrid fish created intentionally. Will we all approve of that practice if imports of fish are cut off and the only way we can get new types is to create hybrids? Many of us may not know the answer to that until we reach that bridge.

Mark

ps You all should have seen The Hybrid Menace at the ACA convention. This was a hilarious satire of the Star Wars and Spaceballs movies that featured Obi Wayne Leibel.

#18115

From: Benjamin Keck <fishcentre99@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 12:17 pm
Subject: RE: Hybrids

rufilineatum

Mark,

At this years Ichthyologists & Herpetologists meeting there was a very interesting talk on hybridization between Xiphophorus in central America. It has long been hypothesized that the male sword exhibited by some Xiphophorus is the result of sexual selection, i.e., females preferring to breed with males that have long swords. Several of the Xiphophorus that have swords have ranges that overlap or butt up against the ranges of Xiphophorus with no swords. For a long time people have noticed that some fish in these overlaps or meeting zones had intermediate sword length and suggested that they were of hybrid origin, but as people began to collect more extensively they've noticed many more such areas where there seem to be a lot of hybrids with plenty of backcrosses. Traditionally, limited hybridization is expected when two closely related species come back into contact, or some disturbance (turbid water) prevents mating signals, like bright colors, from working. However, this recent study has shown that the hybridization is occurring because the females of the Xiphophorus with the swords actually show an aversion towards males with a phenotype they are used to. So, if these females are raised with males with swords then they prefer males with no swords and if they are raised with males without swords they prefer males with swords; that's an oversimplification and it appears they select males with noticibly smaller swords before they go to the no sword males. They determined this by raising the females with one male phenotype and then placing the female in a small tank with a computer screen at one end. On this computer screen they would play clips of CGI (Computer Generated Image) male swordtails swimming into view and displaying, then recording the female's response. They showed a few videos of this and it was pretty cool, and the CGI swordtails were crazy (CGI not just for the big screen anymore!). This female preference for 'different phenotypes' is driving hybridization in these two species and is a mechanism that may be identified in many more of the Xiphophorus or other fish with complex mating signals.

This study, plus many more, are showing that hybridization and genetic exchange are fairly common in nature, now and before people were around to muck things up. Don't get me wrong, I don't care for intentional hybridization in the aquarium trade and just because it happens in nature between a limited number of species, does not make it acceptable for all species or all instances.

When this study is published I'll offer a pdf of it, but it may be a year before it gets published.

Hope all is well, Ben

To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
From: anubiasdesign@...
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 20:07:03 -0700
Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Hybrids

Rob,

It depends. Is that a single swordtail or a double swordtail?

Mark

--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Robert Panerio <robert_panerio@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Robert Panerio <robert_panerio@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Hybrids
To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 10:37 PM

So Mark you wouldn't sell my lyretail, sword tail, sailfin, mickey mouse, tuxedo, triband, gold dust, albino wag, baloon variatus?

LMAO!!!

Rob

--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Anubias Design <anubiasdesign@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Anubias Design <anubiasdesign@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [anubiasdesign] Hybrids
To: anubiasdesign@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 7:28 PM

Hey Gang,

The interesting thing about this discussion is that some are generally accepted while others are vilified. You are extremely unlikely to find a pure Xiphophorus helleri, X. maculatus or X. variatus in the aquarium trade at this time. These 3 species have been extensively hybridized to create the color forms we know today. The same is true of the various mollies of the genus Poecilia. Our beloved Betta splendens is a result of crossbreeding splendens, imbellis, smaragdina and maybe others. While I may be perfectly willing to sell these fish that we are all accustomed to, I shudder at the thought of selling flowerhorns, parrot cichlids, red tail cat X tiger shovelnose crosses or anything that is a recent cross. I also don't have any problem selling plant cultivars. That is a process that has been going on for hundreds if not thousands of years. So, is it the rejection of new crosses or protecting the species I already like that makes me feel the way I do? I don't know. I know I just don't like to see new hybrid fish created intentionally. Will we all approve of that practice if imports of fish are cut off and the only way we can get new types is to create hybrids? Many of us may not know the answer to that until we reach that bridge.

Mark

ps You all should have seen The Hybrid Menace at the ACA convention. This was a hilarious satire of the Star Wars and Spaceballs movies that featured Obi Wayne Leibel.

#18116

From: "Edith" <curiousentity@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 12:56 pm
Subject: RE: I'm concerned

generic237

There are lots of interesting thoughts related to this:

Wild grains were selectively bred by Neolithic man so that they didn’t so easily fall of the stalk. This was important so that they could quickly harvest their ripe grain before the animals ate it (faster and more effective to cut the stuff down and then thresh). I hope someone is preserving wild grains, I think that is important. But I’m glad I have enough to eat too.

My point is that both things are generally good things, preservation is important, development of new variety is important. What is really important is that variety continues to exist. “We” (the planet) get there by both preservation of as much of the old as we can and development of the new. Of course some new creations could be thought to be cruel and one would hope that these be avoided, but even that is often a matter of personal opinion. What may seem like a cruel and harmful alteration of a species could become a new and important adaptation in a new environment (I personally think it’s cruel that I can’t swing from trees – looks like fun [humor]).

If no change, “we” would all still be the primeval single celled life form. Lots of life forms have come into being, produced progeny different than themselves and then died. I’m okay that dinosaurs are extinct and their presumed bird descendants are around (and I’m really glad that the really big dinosaurs didn’t somehow produce lines of really big birds before becoming extinct). Is this somehow good change and good extinctions because man didn’t cause it?

I think the principle of the continuation of variety is an important one and it is achieved both by creation of new and by avoidance of extinction of too much of the old too fast. I’d hope that people wouldn’t do anything obviously cruel and they might want to not mess with a species on the verge of extinction (though messing with it might end up preserving it), but beyond that I’m perfectly happy that both preservationists and creators of new exist. I’d hope they each caution the other to avoid extremes, but not attempt to prevent the existence of the other.

Edith

#18117

From: Gerald Griffin <herpchat@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 1:14 pm
Subject: RE: Hybrids

herpchat

That is fascinating stuff;

In college my research was on Fundulus olivaceus and notatus. Both occur in the same watersheds however they typically did not hybridize even though they look so much alike. Hybrids could be found when one population way outnumbered the other population. Olivaceus has 48 chromosome and notatus has 40 and the hybrids had 44. I would sample thousands of fish to get that one hybrid.

Swords and Platies are some of my favorite fishes and the first fish I ever kept at like 9 I think, before that all those fish were my fathers.

--- On Tue, 8/4/09, Benjamin Keck <fishcentre99@...> wrote:

From: Benjamin Keck <fishcentre99@...>
Subject: RE: [anubiasdesign] Hybrids
To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2009, 7:17 AM

Mark,

At this years Ichthyologists & Herpetologists meeting there was a very interesting talk on hybridization between Xiphophorus in central America. It has long been hypothesized that the male sword exhibited by some Xiphophorus is the result of sexual selection, i.e., females preferring to breed with males that have long swords. Several of the Xiphophorus that have swords have ranges that overlap or butt up against the ranges of Xiphophorus with no swords. For a long time people have noticed that some fish in these overlaps or meeting zones had intermediate sword length and suggested that they were of hybrid origin, but as people began to collect more extensively they've noticed many more such areas where there seem to be a lot of hybrids with plenty of backcrosses. Traditionally, limited hybridization is expected when two closely related species come back into contact, or some disturbance (turbid water) prevents mating signals, like bright colors, from working. However, this recent study has shown that the hybridization is occurring because the females of the Xiphophorus with the swords actually show an aversion towards males with a phenotype they are used to. So, if these females are raised with males with swords then they prefer males with no swords and if they are raised with males without swords they prefer males with swords; that's an oversimplification and it appears they select males with noticibly smaller swords before they go to the no sword males. They determined this by raising the females with one male phenotype and then placing the female in a small tank with a computer screen at one end. On this computer screen they would play clips of CGI (Computer Generated Image) male swordtails swimming into view and displaying, then recording the female's response. They showed a few videos of this and it was pretty cool, and the CGI swordtails were crazy (CGI not just for the big screen anymore!). This female preference for 'different phenotypes' is driving hybridization in these two species and is a mechanism that may be identified in many more of the Xiphophorus or other fish with complex mating signals.

This study, plus many more, are showing that hybridization and genetic exchange are fairly common in nature, now and before people were around to muck things up. Don't get me wrong, I don't care for intentional hybridization in the aquarium trade and just because it happens in nature between a limited number of species, does not make it acceptable for all species or all instances.

When this study is published I'll offer a pdf of it, but it may be a year before it gets published.

Hope all is well, Ben

To: anubiasdesign@ yahoogroups. com
From: anubiasdesign@ yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 20:07:03 -0700
Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Hybrids

Rob,

It depends. Is that a single swordtail or a double swordtail?

Mark

--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Robert Panerio <robert_panerio@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Robert Panerio <robert_panerio@ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] Hybrids
To: anubiasdesign@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 10:37 PM

So Mark you wouldn't sell my lyretail, sword tail, sailfin, mickey mouse, tuxedo, triband, gold dust, albino wag, baloon variatus?

LMAO!!!

Rob

--- On Mon, 8/3/09, Anubias Design <anubiasdesign@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Anubias Design <anubiasdesign@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [anubiasdesign] Hybrids
To: anubiasdesign@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 7:28 PM

Hey Gang,

The interesting thing about this discussion is that some are generally accepted while others are vilified. You are extremely unlikely to find a pure Xiphophorus helleri, X. maculatus or X. variatus in the aquarium trade at this time. These 3 species have been extensively hybridized to create the color forms we know today. The same is true of the various mollies of the genus Poecilia. Our beloved Betta splendens is a result of crossbreeding splendens, imbellis, smaragdina and maybe others. While I may be perfectly willing to sell these fish that we are all accustomed to, I shudder at the thought of selling flowerhorns, parrot cichlids, red tail cat X tiger shovelnose crosses or anything that is a recent cross. I also don't have any problem selling plant cultivars. That is a process that has been going on for hundreds if not thousands of years. So, is it the rejection of new crosses or protecting the species I already like that makes me feel the way I do? I don't know. I know I just don't like to see new hybrid fish created intentionally. Will we all approve of that practice if imports of fish are cut off and the only way we can get new types is to create hybrids? Many of us may not know the answer to that until we reach that bridge.

Mark

ps You all should have seen The Hybrid Menace at the ACA convention. This was a hilarious satire of the Star Wars and Spaceballs movies that featured Obi Wayne Leibel.

#18118

From: Gerald Griffin <herpchat@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 1:29 pm
Subject: RE: I'm concerned

herpchat

Something to think about is that we are the only species that can destroy and preserve. I am a preservationist at heart and so are many others on here including Gerald of the East. Before I get to far someone will point out that elephants destroy land to and some desertification can be attributed to them. However they really don't preserve.

As to the wild grains I bet there are some still out there. Sure we adapt and make better. Disease resistant crops, fancy fruit tree cultivars and so on. We are a tinkering species always wondering what would happen if, how can I change this, and so on. If we were not this way we would not be where we are today however all progress comes with a price. Each new technology gives us new options, some good, some bad but we do have some choice and control.

So many ecosystems are literally being destroyed as we speak. Those into fish preservation need to work on Madagascan fish because those might be gone in a few years. I have no doubt someone out there is looking to hybridize them. Some of us will scream, others will think oh cool.

--- On Tue, 8/4/09, Edith <curiousentity@...> wrote:

From: Edith <curiousentity@...>
Subject: RE: [anubiasdesign] I'm concerned
To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2009, 7:56 AM

There are lots of interesting thoughts related to this:

Wild grains were selectively bred by Neolithic man so that they didn’t so easily fall of the stalk.    This was important so that they could quickly harvest their ripe grain before the animals ate it (faster and more effective to cut the stuff down and then thresh).      I hope someone is preserving wild grains, I think that is important. But I’m glad I have enough to eat too.

My point is that both things are generally good things, preservation is important, development of new variety is important. What is really important is that variety continues to exist.    “We” (the planet) get there by both preservation of as much of the old as we can and development of the new.   Of course some new creations could be thought to be cruel and one would hope that these be avoided, but even that is often a matter of personal opinion.   What may seem like a cruel and harmful alteration of a species could become a new and important adaptation in a new environment (I personally think it’s cruel that I can’t swing from trees – looks like fun [humor]).

If no change, “we” would all still be the primeval single celled life form.      Lots of life forms have come into being, produced progeny different than themselves and then died.   I’m okay that dinosaurs are extinct and their presumed bird descendants are around (and I’m really glad that the really big dinosaurs didn’t somehow produce lines of really big birds before becoming extinct).    Is this somehow good change and good extinctions because man didn’t cause it?

I think the principle of the continuation of variety is an important one and it is achieved both by creation of new and by avoidance of extinction of too much of the old too fast.   I’d hope that people wouldn’t do anything obviously cruel and they might want to not mess with a species on the verge of extinction (though messing with it might end up preserving it), but beyond that I’m perfectly happy that both preservationists and creators of new exist.   I’d hope they each caution the other to avoid extremes, but not attempt to prevent the existence of the other.

Edith

#18119

From: "Gerald" <gbpottern@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 1:33 pm
Subject: Re: Hybrids

gbpottern

--- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Keck <fishcentre99@...> wrote:
>
... and it appears they select males with noticibly smaller swords ...
(Thank You God. Sincerely, The Little Guys)

But on a more serious note, I wonder if that's true of MOST females in this
swordtail population or if it's an uncommon trait held by a minority of females
in order to bring occasional new genes into the population. Maybe its an
edge-of-range geographic phenomenon. Seems analogous to the way some individual
animals are more prone to far-off wandering than others: many will die, but a
few will be the colonizers of new populations.

NC Gerald

#18120

From: Benjamin Keck <fishcentre99@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 1:54 pm
Subject: RE: Re: Hybrids

rufilineatum

It seems to be a trait expressed by the majority of the females in this species. These were all experimental tests with control groups and hundreds of 'samples'. Additionally, they presented pretty graphs that show the average length of swords in tens of wild populations and all but one were shortening (statistically significant). One population was increasing in length. I do agree that this may be some mechanism to introduce novel phenotypes that has been selected for. Hybrid offspring are often highly variable phenotypically, so much so that some individuals will express phenotypes that are way beyond anything in the range of either parental species. This high variability could be advantageous to population survival if the environment is prone to rapid or frequent change.

Ben

To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
From: gbpottern@...
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 13:33:31 +0000
Subject: [anubiasdesign] Re: Hybrids

--- In anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Keck <fishcentre99@...> wrote:
>
... and it appears they select males with noticibly smaller swords ...
(Thank You God. Sincerely, The Little Guys)

But on a more serious note, I wonder if that's true of MOST females in this swordtail population or if it's an uncommon trait held by a minority of females in order to bring occasional new genes into the population. Maybe its an edge-of-range geographic phenomenon. Seems analogous to the way some individual animals are more prone to far-off wandering than others: many will die, but a few will be the colonizers of new populations.

NC Gerald

#18121

From: BigJohnW@...
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 2:09 pm
Subject: Re: relisting

bigjohnwubbolt

Mark

The Betta Falx and Betta Prima on your list, is the reason they are
listed as single fish and not as pairs due to small size ??   Im
interested in the Betta Falx, was wondering what size they were before
ordering.

John

Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)

#18122

From: Anubias Design <anubiasdesign@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 2:23 pm
Subject: Re: relisting

anubiasdesign

They came in as individual fish rather than pairs so that's jhow I listed them. I can send them in about any sex ratio you want.

Mark

--- On Tue, 8/4/09, BigJohnW@... <BigJohnW@...> wrote:

From: BigJohnW@... <BigJohnW@...>
Subject: Re: [anubiasdesign] relisting
To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2009, 10:09 AM

Mark

The Betta Falx and Betta Prima on your list, is the reason they are
listed as single fish and not as pairs due to small size ?? Im
interested in the Betta Falx, was wondering what size they were before
ordering.

John

Reply | Messages in this Topic (3)

#18123

From: Anubias Design <anubiasdesign@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 2:41 pm
Subject: Revised Stock List - knew I was forgetting something

anubiasdesign

Anubias Design
Current Stocklist
anubiasdesign@...

8/3/2009
Specials
Copella carsevenensis		W	$3.00
Betta splendens	Super Delta Females	TR	$3.00
Corydoras longipinnis	Long Finned Cory Cat	W	$7.50

Anabantoids			each
Macropodus opercularis	Paradise Fish		$1.50
Trichopsis pumilus	Sparkling Gourami	W	$1.50

Bettas - Mouthbrooders
Betta falx		W	$6.00
Betta krataios		W	$35/pr
Betta prima		W	$9.00

Botias & Loaches
Botia (Yasuhikotakia) sidthimunki	Dwarf Botia	W	$10.00
Pseudogastromyzon sp.	new and undescribed	W	$10.00

Catfish - Callichthyidae
Corydoras adolfoi	F1	TR	$9.00
Corydoras longipinnis	Long Finned Cory	W	$13.00
Corydoras pygmaeus	Pigmy Cory Cat	W	$1.50
Scleromystax barbatus	F1	TR	$10.00

Catfish - Loricariidae
Ancistrus sp.	Long Fin Bristle Nose - XXL - pairs	TR	$75/pr
Ancistrus sp.	Albino Long Fin Bristle Nose - XXL - pair	TR	$
Otocinclus affinis	Oto	W	$1.50
Pseudohemiodon sp. Peru		W	$35.00

Catfish - Others
Pelteobagrus ornatus	Ornate Pigmy Cat	W	$3.50

Characins
Copella carsevenensis		W	$4.00
Hyphessobrycon amapaensis	3 Lined Tetra - rare and gorgeous!	TR	$8.00
Myleus schomburgki	Black Banded Silver Dollar - SM	W	$12.50
Serapinnus kriegi		W	$3.00

Cichlids - Angelfish
Pterophyllum scalare	Peruvian Altum	W	$25.00

Cichlids - Dwarf
Apistogramma agassizi	Santa - gold head - German Bred	TR	$35/pr
Apistogramma agassizi	Triple Red	TR	$25/pr
Apistogramma barlowi	Mouthbrooder - F1	TR	$35/pr
Apistogramma hoignei 'arauca'		TR	$25/pr
Apistogramma honglsoi	Rostrich	TR	$30/pr
Apistogramma sp. Black Chin	Black Chin	W	$30/pr
Apistogramma sp. Breitbinden	Breitbinden - German Bred	TR	$60/pr
Laetacara curviceps	Curviceps	TR	$4.00
Mikrogeophagus altispinosa	Bolivian Ram	TR	$3.50
Mikrogeophagus ramirezi	Ram	W	$4.00
Nannacara aureocephalus	German Bred	TR	$16.00
Pelvicachromis sacrimontis	German Bred	TR	$22/pr
Pelvicachromis sp 'yellow pulcher'		W	$22/pr
Pelvicachromis sp. 'blue fin spotted'		W	$26/pr
Pelvicachromis taenatius Lobe		W	$24/pr

Cichlids - Other New World
Amatitlania sp.	Honduran Red Point	TR	$4.00
Cichlasoma boliviensis	Bolivian Acara	TR	$6.00
Geophagus altifrons	Curua - German Bred	TR	$18.00
Geophagus crassilabris	German Bred	TR	$15.00

Cyprinids
Boraras urophthalmoides		W	$1.75
Danio rerio	Zebra Danio	W	$1.50

Killifish
Aphyosemion australe	Cape Esterias Lyretail	TR	$12/pr
Aphyosemion australe	Gold Lyretail	TR	$12/pr
Epiplatys dageti	males only	TR	$3.00
Fundulopanchax gardneri Inderere		TR	$15/pr
Fundulopanchax gardneri Udi Mountain		TR	$15/pr
Fundulopanchax sjoestedti	Blue Gularis	TR	$20/pr
Nothobranchius albimarginatus	White Edge Notho	TR	$20/pr
Nothobranchius rachovii	Rachov's Notho	TR	$20/pr

Livebearers
Micropoecilia sp.	3 Spot Micro Livebearer	TR	$20/pr
Poecilia salvatoris	Liberty Molly - German Bred	TR	$6.50

Cold Water
Lepomis gibbosus	Pumpkinseed Sunfish - German Bred	TR	$6.00
Lepomis megalotis	Long Ear Sunfish	TR	$5.00
Phoxinus phoxinus	Eurasian Minnow	TR	$4.50

Plants - Bare Root
Anubias barteri var coffeefolia	Medium		$7.00
Anubias barteri var nana	Medium		$7.50
Anubias sp.	Assorted - Small Fancy		$4.00
Aponogeton boivinianus			$9.00
Aponogeton sp.	Wonder Bulb		$1.00
Barclaya longifolia	Orchid Lily		$5.00
Crinum aquaticum			$10.00
Crinum calamistratum	Cameroon Crinum		$10.00
Crinum thaianum	Onion Plant		$6.50
Echinodorus grandifolius	Grand Swordplant		$4.00
Echinodorus var	Red Rubin Swordplant		$5.00
Nymphaea maculata	Red Tiger Lotus		$5.00
Nymphaea rubra	Red Thai Lily		$3.50

Plants - Potted
Echinodorus sp. Aflame	Aflame Sword		$10.00
	Assorted Potted Plants		$4.00

W - wild	Red = On Sale
TR - tankraised

Reply | Messages in this Topic (2)

#18124

From: Anubias Design <anubiasdesign@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 2:43 pm
Subject: Sale

anubiasdesign

Hey Gang,

Any orders in excess of $100 of fish and plants submitted by August 10th will receive a 10% discount on the price of fish and plants. Box charges and shipping charges will not be discounted. Please send orders to me offlist at anubiasdesign@....
Thanks,

Mark

Reply | Messages in this Topic (1)

#18125

From: "Edith" <curiousentity@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 3:10 pm
Subject: RE: I'm concerned

generic237

I personally doubt that man is the only species that can destroy and preserve. (I’m not going to try to prove it, I just ask that you accept that not everyone agrees with the premise that man is the only species that can destroy and preserve). I think man is a very powerful species and is therefore capable of greater extremes. Our destroying and preserving is more obvious and more extreme. I think what we need is greater consciousness of what we are doing and we moderation in how fast we do it (so that we have time to be conscious).

But in the end we have the live with the fact that we will never totally know the results of what we are doing. At best we are making educated guesses. When I realize that I am guessing it helps me be a bit more tolerant of other people’s guesses that I feel are wrong. What does really disturb me is totally not caring about the results of what one does. Total detachment from the results beyond receiving what one desires (often labeled “freedom”) is scary. This is different than just a different perception about whether something is harmful, it is not caring about whether something is harmful to others. But then there are also those who hide their heads in the sand: They don’t want to believe that what they are doing that makes them happy has results, and that if they looked at those results more closely they wouldn’t approve themselves – those folks need waking up (though they often get angry and make all sorts of accusations when you attempt to do it).

Perhaps the hybrid fish will survive while the pure (which are also probably hybrids by someone’s definition) do not and in doing so preserve the genes otherwise lost. Those mixed genes may then give rise to new branches and form several new species (that we will then try to preserve LOL).

You can’t preserve a moment in time without killing the possibilities of the future. Life without change is not life at all. But we do need to take care about the results of our choices, whether those results leave open a viable future for ourselves or anybody. Killing ecosystems is dangerous to all of us, especially if new ecosystems are not coming into being as the old ones die. Change will happen. “Grandma” will die – the important thing is that she had babies and raised them to adulthood first. If we keep her alive longer but the price is that she doesn’t have any children (children which still won’t be exactly the same as herself), she will still die, but there will be no future. On the other hand, if most women are dying before they even get to reproduce and raise their young, that is too fast. If ecosystems are dying faster than new ones are coming into being and reaching stability, then the end is disaster. Death of the past is normal. But death too fast is no future for life.

Edith

From: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Griffin
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 8:30 AM
To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [anubiasdesign] I'm concerned

From: Edith <curiousentity@...>
Subject: RE: [anubiasdesign] I'm concerned
To: anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, August 4, 2009, 7:56 AM

There are lots of interesting thoughts related to this:

Edith

#18126

From: Anubias Design <anubiasdesign@...>
Date: Tue Aug 4, 2009 8:44 pm
Subject: Full Colombia List

anubiasdesign