I'll be wanting a copy, too.  :)  (Book, that is - no compter at the
house.)

Rowen



--- In albanach@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Newsome <eogan@a...> wrote:
> malkin7@a... wrote:
>
> >  is it possible to preorder the actual book?  Perhaps send a check
or
> > through
> > the website?
>
> Until I get the book in from the publisher I won't know exactly how
much
> it will be, but as I said, I'll post here when it's ready.  Thanks!
> Aye,
> Eogan
>
> --
> Matthew A. C. Newsome
> http://albanach.org
> Highland Dress Historian
> Catholic Apologist
>
> TURRIS FORTIS Catholic Apologetics
> on line at http://turrisfortis.com
>
> "To whom shall we go?" -- St. Peter
> John 6:68

Hail unto the list,

My name is Gavine Armestrang, I am a SCAdian that resides in the Barony of
Darkwater, Kingdom of Trimaris. Obviously I have a Scottish lowlander persona. I
am continuously working on it though, and would like to make it as period as
possible. Currently I'm setting up as a sailor out of the port of Leith
(approx. 1500). My intention with that was to justify fencing. My roadblock
comes in
that I have been able to find very little information about the sailors or
their travels. I am also trying to find some other ideas for clothing. Kilts are
great, but the wrong material (or amount thereof) in the Trimaran heat can
roast a lad. I have seen pictures, although how accurate I do not know, of Scots
wearing pants, did they also wear a tartan drape? or was this not necessary
due to the tartans not meaning anything clan wise. Did Scotsman wear plain
tunics also? I thank the members of this list for any help that can be offered
(even a bugger off is a help of some sort) and look forward to much inter
education.

Honorably,
Gavine Armestrang
MKA Corey Steff

--- scotsfencer@... wrote:
> Hail unto the list,
>
> My name is Gavine Armestrang, I am a SCAdian that
> resides in the Barony of
> Darkwater, Kingdom of Trimaris. Obviously I have a
> Scottish lowlander persona.

>  I am also trying to find some other
> ideas for clothing. Kilts are
> great, but the wrong material (or amount thereof) in
> the Trimaran heat can
> roast a lad. I have seen pictures, although how
> accurate I do not know, of Scots
> wearing pants, did they also wear a tartan drape? or
> was this not necessary
> due to the tartans not meaning anything clan wise.
> Did Scotsman wear plain
> tunics also? >
>
  Honorably,
> Gavine Armestrang
> MKA Corey Steff
>
Failte/Welcome
I haven't done any research on sailors but since you
are concerned with "lowlanders", wearing the kilt is
not a problem.  The kilt and breacan (plaid) are
Highland in origin and so the lowlanders wouldn't have
worn them.I think it would be safe to say that what
was being worn in what was then the borders and
northern England would be ok and acceptable. If I am
incorrect in this information I sincerely apologize.
Also yes, plain tunic would be accptable also.

Beannachd geal,
Amergin

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com

Gavine,

For a lowland persona c. 1550s, simply forget about the kilt.  What
we would call "Highland Dress" would be completely foreign to your
persona.  We tend to forget that the lowland and highland cultures
were rather foreign to each other.  Your persona would have spoken
Inglis (English, or what we would term today Scots), worn clothing
very much like his English neighbors to the south, and have been
reared in a rather feudal system of land ownership and social structure.
Depending on exaclty when in the sixteenth century you are placing
him, he would be Protestant Presbyterian, or at least be heavily
pressured by law and society to be so.

Now, a Highland Scot in the same time period would have spoken Gaelic,
worn elaborate leinte (long, full tunics) that would have been rather
odd looking to the non-Gaelic observer, and by the end of the century
could have been wearing the tartan wrap, the feileadh-mor.  He would
very likely have been reared in a clan social structure.  He may
be aware of the Reformation as some trouble happening in the south,
but he and his family would for the most part be unaffected by it.


Your lowland persona would have much stronger ties to your English
neighbors just a stone's throw over the border.  The Highlander would
have much more contact with the Irish.  You would likely consider
a Highlander and anything to do with Highland culture rather barbaric.
In short, would he have even wanted to wear a kilt?  No!

For inspiration about your clothing, look to sources that deal with
English clothes from the same time period.  Although there were some
weapons and armor styles that seemed to have been favored by the
Border Scots.  Osprey has a book out in their Men-at-Arms series
dealing with the Border Reviers that is quite good and well illustrated.
This would be an excellent first source for you.

Good luck!
Aye,
Eogan


Albanach.org
Scottish History -- Highland Dress

In a message dated 9/3/03 10:16:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
amergin3084@... writes:

<< since you are concerned with "lowlanders", wearing the kilt is not a
problem.  The kilt and breacan (plaid) are Highland in origin and so the
lowlanders
wouldn't have
  worn them. >>

I have seen research also that the lowlanders DID wear kilts, just not the
great kilt. I'll have to remember where I saw that and read it again.

At 7:12 AM -0700 9/3/03, amergin3084 wrote:
>I haven't done any research on sailors but since you
>are concerned with "lowlanders", wearing the kilt is
>not a problem.  The kilt and breacan (plaid) are
>Highland in origin and so the lowlanders wouldn't have
>worn them.

A small correction. While the "kilt" in the sense of a plaid worn
belted or "great kilt" was purely Highland (and of course a kilt in
the sense of a modern small kilt is modern ;-), Lowlanders did wear
plaids -- that is, rectangular length of tartan cloth worn as a
mantle/shawl. They may not have worn them in the same fashion as
Highlanders did, but many Lowlanders did wear them (especially women
of all classes and at least rural men of lower classes). Note that
the plaid is an outer garment -- a mantle/shawl -- not a main garment
worn at all times throughout the day like a skirt, shirt, or tunic.
Rather, it was worn pretty much in the same circumstances when a
cloak would be worn -- when cold, in bad weather, outside, etc.

Other than (some) Lowlanders wearing plaids, though, generally
Lowland clothing was more or less the same as English and/or
north-west continental clothing of the same era. So you might try
seeing if you can find information on what English sailors wore circa
1500.

Sharon, ska Affrick

PS Of course, circa 1500 is some 94 years before the first clear
evidence of a plaid worn belted even in the Highlands and Western
Isles!
--
Sharon Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
      Medieval Scotland - http://www.MedievalScotland.org/

At 1:37 PM -0400 9/3/03, scotsfencer@... wrote:
>In a message dated 9/3/03 10:16:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>amergin3084@... writes:
>
><< since you are concerned with "lowlanders", wearing the kilt is not a
>problem.  The kilt and breacan (plaid) are Highland in origin and so
>the lowlanders
>wouldn't have
>  worn them. >>
>
>I have seen research also that the lowlanders DID wear kilts, just not the
>great kilt. I'll have to remember where I saw that and read it again.

I think you may be confusing wearing of kilts, which is either a
modern thing (small kilt) or else a purely Highland thing (belted
plaid aka "great kilt") with wearing of plaids (unbelted), which was
done in both Highlands and Lowlands (see my other post), or else
recalling that there is some evidence (perhaps 17th century? I can't
recall) that at least sometimes when Lowlanders went on hunting trips
to the Highlands, they dressed in local style (so, didn't wear
Highland-style attire normally, but only when "going native" on
hunting trips in the Highlands). But normally Lowlanders dressed more
or less like the English and NW continental Europeans.

That being said, if you do come across evidence that Lowlanders wore
their plaids belted in SCA period, I'd love to know of it!

Sharon, ska Africa
--
Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...

scotsfencer@... wrote:

> I have seen research also that the lowlanders DID wear kilts, just not
> the
> great kilt. I'll have to remember where I saw that and read it again.

After the unpopular Union of the Parliaments in 1707 (or so) some
lowland nationalists did begin to look more favorably upon Highland
dress.  (I think at this point the English were unpopular enough among
the southers Scots that they'd rather affiliate themselves with those
"barbarians" to the north than the English).  But certainly the kilt was
never a "daily dress" item for them.  When you get into the nineteenth
century, you'd certainly have Scots of lowland origin donning the kilt
on certain special occasions as ceremonial garb.  But I can't think of a
time when the kilt was ever a part of the day-to-day clothing of the
Lowlander.
Aye,
Eogan

--
Matthew A. C. Newsome
http://albanach.org
Highland Dress Historian
Catholic Apologist

TURRIS FORTIS Catholic Apologetics
on line at http://turrisfortis.com

"To whom shall we go?" -- St. Peter
John 6:68

For Lowland dress, have a look at www.gaddgedlar.com

Lindsay
----- Original Message -----
From: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
To: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 9:41 AM
Subject: [albanach] Digest Number 548


>
> This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
> Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.  Post messages to albanach@egroups.com.  Alter
> your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There is 1 message in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. Re: Hail unto the list
>            From: Matthew Newsome <eogan@...>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
>    Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 07:12:49 -0400
>    From: Matthew Newsome <eogan@...>
> Subject: Re: Hail unto the list
>
> scotsfencer@... wrote:
>
> > I have seen research also that the lowlanders DID wear kilts, just not
> > the
> > great kilt. I'll have to remember where I saw that and read it again.
>
> After the unpopular Union of the Parliaments in 1707 (or so) some
> lowland nationalists did begin to look more favorably upon Highland
> dress.  (I think at this point the English were unpopular enough among
> the southers Scots that they'd rather affiliate themselves with those
> "barbarians" to the north than the English).  But certainly the kilt was
> never a "daily dress" item for them.  When you get into the nineteenth
> century, you'd certainly have Scots of lowland origin donning the kilt
> on certain special occasions as ceremonial garb.  But I can't think of a
> time when the kilt was ever a part of the day-to-day clothing of the
> Lowlander.
> Aye,
> Eogan
>
> --
> Matthew A. C. Newsome
> http://albanach.org
> Highland Dress Historian
> Catholic Apologist
>
> TURRIS FORTIS Catholic Apologetics
> on line at http://turrisfortis.com
>
> "To whom shall we go?" -- St. Peter
> John 6:68
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

I am trying to find information on Marie D'Guise of Lorraine but have
been unable to find anymore than a mention. Can anyone point me in a
direction?
I'd like pictures, background, anything!
I have searched Library catalogs but can not find anything.

Magdalena

Magdalena wrote:  I am trying to find information on Marie D'Guise of
Lorraine but have  been unable to find anymore than a mention. Can
anyone point me in a direction? I'd like pictures, background, anything!
I have searched Library catalogs but can not find anything.

~Magdalena, I would triple check any internet findings, but in saying
that, here are some url's I found.
Her picture:
http://www.royalstuarts.org/marie_dguise.htm

http://donsmith.ourfamily.com/PS07/PS07_461.HTML

"The Auld Alliance and its Influence on Scottish Cuisine"
http://www.historichighlanders.com/auldfood.htm

http://tudorhistory.org/people/guise/

http://www.gencircles.com/users/vfar/1/data/2319

     I hope some of the above helps.  Good luck.
Diana Cosby

--
wulfe6@...
VRW Newsletter Editor
http://members.cox.net/wulfe6/
"An obstacle is what you see when you take your focus off your goal." - unknown




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We were thinking about modern.  Thought about Victorian...but that seems to
be too much for the wallet at this point. Then again, maybe it would be
cheaper.

Just researching best options at this point.  I am more for a modern
Scottish "traditional" than an "American Scottish traditional".

Derek

-----Original Message-----
From: Sharon L. Krossa [mailto:skrossa-ml@...]
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 2:15 AM
To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [albanach] Wedding Question


At 9:47 PM -0400 8/20/03, Derek Godfrey wrote:
>What factors must one consider when having a "traditional" Scottish
>wedding...a mundane wedding, not SCA?  What does the ceremony entail?  What
>kind of rings are exchanged?  What should the woman wear as a wedding
>gown/dress?  What about clan affiliations and such?
>
>I know these are basic and general questions, but I need this info to see
if
>this is a practical option for us.

Well, everything depends on what you mean by "traditional". Wedding
customs in Scotland, just like elsewhere, have changed over the
centuries, and also vary by family and culture within Scotland.

So when you say "traditional Scottish wedding", what do mean? Do you
mean what modern Scots do when they have a wedding they regard as
"traditional"? (If so, what kind of modern Scots?) Do you mean what
Scots did in some specific historical time and place/culture? (If so,
which?) Do you mean what modern Americans do when they have what they
regard as a "traditional Scottish" wedding? (If so, what specific
things were you thinking of?) And so on -- depending on what your
interest is, I may have some useful resources. (Or it may be I am
clueless and useless ;-)

Specifically, regarding a medieval wedding, you may find the resources at
http://www.MedievalScotland.org/scotbiblio/marriage.shtml
useful. Regarding more recent and current Scottish "traditional"
weddings, some resources for modern (19th & 20th century) and current
traditions can be found at
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~craig/weddings.html

Sharon
--
Sharon Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
      Medieval Scotland - http://www.MedievalScotland.org/


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What would a Scottish "priest" of the Church of Scotland have worn in the
1600s?  Playing with a new persona idea.  Besides, the Clergy tartan and the
Clarke tartan are so very similar :)

Thanks,

Aonghus
mka Derek


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As usual, you have tripped me out.  This is great info, as usual.  I was
unaware kilts could be rented...that could save some bucks.

anyway, this gives me a good starting point.

Thanks,

Derek

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Newsome [mailto:eogan@...]
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 7:48 AM
To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [albanach] Wedding Question


Derek Godfrey wrote:

>  What factors must one consider when having a "traditional" Scottish
> wedding...a mundane wedding, not SCA?  What does the ceremony entail?
> What kind of rings are exchanged?  What should the woman wear as a
> wedding gown/dress?  What about clan affiliations and such?

Assuming you are not attempting to create an authentic medieval wedding
ceremony, but want a modern wedding with a traditional Scottish feel to
it, there are a number of things you can do.

I get people asking me similar questions at work, so it's no big deal.
;-)

First off, determine what boundaries are placed by your faith
tradition.  Depending on which (or any) church you marry in, you may
have some restrictions as to what you can or cannot do as far as the
actual liturgy of the ceremony.

That being said, there are some easy things you can do to make your
wedding distictly Scottish (and in case you missed it above, here's the
disclaimer again -- this is *not* information about medieval Scottish
weddings).

The simplest thing you can do is to wear a kilt! Having the groom in a
kilt is pretty much the minimum if you want your wedding to look
Scottish.  Of course, if you want all the groomsmen in kilts, even
better!  You don't have to buy them all.  I know that would break my
budget.  But no fear, they are easily availble for rent fro many
Highland dress suppliers.

Second thing you can do is have a piper.  I would say this is second in
importance to a Scottish themed wedding only to having the groom in a
kilt.  You can hire a lone piper, or a whole band.  Up to you and your
budget.  Most pipers (so I hear) get $150 for a wedding (plus travel
expenses, if any).  This is typically for piping a processional, a
recessional, and perhaps piping you and yoru wife into the reception
hall.

As far as wedding bands, if you want a Scottish feel to them as well,
there are celtic knot bands available.  Of course this is something that
will be more noticable to you and your bride than to the guests.  But it
is a very nice touch.

You mentioned wedding dress for her.  I would reccomend a traditional
white gown, and depending on what style she picks (you will have no
input in this, of course) she may or may not choose to wear a tartan
sash with it, perhaps in silk.

Many couples have a ceremony sometime during the wedding ceremony where
the groom places a sash of his family tartan on his new bride to
symbolize her coming into the family.  If your liturgy does not allow
for this, I know some couples who have done this at the reception.  It's
a completely modern custom, of course, but it's a nice touch if you want
to do it.

Ok, after all of this thoroughly modern American-Scottish advice, I
suppose now I should give myself a plug and tell you where you can buy
all this stuff. ;-)

Go to www.scottishtartans.org and click on "Gift Shop."  Scroll down the
menu and click on "Weddings."  We have books on Scottish weddings, we
have celtic rings, we rent the kilts,  all that good stuff.

And if you want to decorate your reception hall with tartan ribbon and
little Scottish flags, we have those, too. :-)  Ok, shameless plug over
(hey we are a non-profit, we need to business!) lol

(By the way, the pictures on that page are from my own wedding)

Anyway congradulations are in order!  Vivat!

Aye,
Matt (Eogan knows nothing of all this modern foolishness)

--
Matthew A. C. Newsome
http://albanach.org
Highland Dress Historian
Catholic Apologist

TURRIS FORTIS Catholic Apologetics
on line at
http://albanach.org/apologetics

"To whom shall we go?" -- St. Peter
John 6:68




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Derek

I depends what you mean by 'priest' since Scotland went Protestant in 1560.
If you mean one of the few remaining Catholic priests, they would have
dressed in the manner of priests everywhere in Europe at the time. If you
mean a Protestant minister, the closest pictures you can probably find are
those of John Knox, George Buchanan etc. They mainly wore black.
The Clan Tartan's are an early 19th Century concepts (blame Walter Scott)
and the Clergy tartan will be an even more recent idea.
On the subject of Tartans, has everyone heard that there is going to be a
special Freemason tartan. This has struck me as odd since aren't they
supposed to be a 'secret' society???

Lindsay
www.gaddgedlar.com

>________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
>    Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 03:13:44 -0400
>    From: "Derek Godfrey" <derekg@...>
> Subject: Garb Question
>
> What would a Scottish "priest" of the Church of Scotland have worn in the
> 1600s?  Playing with a new persona idea.  Besides, the Clergy tartan and
the
> Clarke tartan are so very similar :)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aonghus
> mka Derek
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>

Thank you for your replies. I found a lot under Marie de Guise instead of Marie
d'Guise as someone suggested. I would not have thought to try that.
Magdalena

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Derek Godfrey wrote:

> As usual, you have tripped me out.  This is great info, as usual.  I was
> unaware kilts could be rented...that could save some bucks.

My partner and I have some inexpensive handwoven and hand tailored black
watch kilts on ebay ($70.00 opening bid, $90.00 buy it now price), along
with sporrans and balmoral bonnets. We can also get kilts made in any
tartan but there is a minimum order of 4 kilts.

Full details can be found here:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=unclebagpipes\
&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=25

You might have to do a cut and paste to get the whole link in, or you
can do a seller search for unclebagpipes.

Congratulations!

>
>
> anyway, this gives me a good starting point.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Derek
>
>


--
The Great Scot, Magician  http://www.greatscotmagic.com.
Historic & Multi-epoch Entertainer
Expert in Historical, Scottish, & Celtic Magic
Let me make your event memorable for you & your guests
Stuart Joseph, 802-463-1954 (phone) 775-719-9914 (fax)
36 Front St., Bellows Falls, VT 05101 USA

Derek Godfrey wrote:

> We were thinking about modern.  Thought about Victorian...but that
> seems to
> be too much for the wallet at this point. Then again, maybe it would be
> cheaper.

Actually, all the modern male full Scottish dress is actually Victorian,
so you would be having a Victorian wedding if the women were dressed in
Victorian gowns..

>
>
> Just researching best options at this point.  I am more for a modern
> Scottish "traditional" than an "American Scottish traditional".
>
> Derek



--
The Great Scot, Magician  http://www.greatscotmagic.com.
Historic & Multi-epoch Entertainer
Expert in Historical, Scottish, & Celtic Magic
Let me make your event memorable for you & your guests
Stuart Joseph, 802-463-1954 (phone) 775-719-9914 (fax)
36 Front St., Bellows Falls, VT 05101 USA

In a message dated 9/8/2003 5:40:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
lindsay@... writes:

> On the subject of Tartans, has everyone heard that there is going to be a
> special Freemason tartan. This has struck me as odd since
> aren't they
> supposed to be a 'secret' society???

If they're trying to keep it a secret, they're not doing a very good job. At any
rate the misconception of the fraternal order of freemasons being a "secret"
brotherhood most likely came from the fact that the masons is not like an elks
lodge or something of the sort. The masons have existed since before christ and
has always been passed on from father to son and "brother" to "brother". The
freemasons essentially began as a way to aide people in getting a job. sort of
as a reputation thing. This was told to me by a friend who is a freemason. Hope
it helps.

Gavine

scotsfencer@... wrote:

> The masons have existed since before christ and has always been passed
> on from father to son and "brother" to "brother". The freemasons
> essentially began as a way to aide people in getting a job. sort of as
> a reputation thing. This was told to me by a friend who is a
> freemason. Hope it helps.

Interesting origins for an organization that claims to be descended from
the Knights Templar.  I've always found the whole Masonic thing a bit
confusing.....
Eogan

--
Matthew A. C. Newsome
http://albanach.org
Highland Dress Historian
Catholic Apologist

TURRIS FORTIS Catholic Apologetics
on line at http://turrisfortis.com

"To whom shall we go?" -- St. Peter
John 6:68

I thought I had read that they came from a masonry guild in the middle ages.

Hob

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Newsome [mailto:eogan@...]


Interesting origins for an organization that claims to be descended from
the Knights Templar.  I've always found the whole Masonic thing a bit
confusing.....
Eogan

--
Matthew A. C. Newsome
http://albanach.org
Highland Dress Historian
Catholic Apologist

TURRIS FORTIS Catholic Apologetics
on line at http://turrisfortis.com

"To whom shall we go?" -- St. Peter
John 6:68



This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.  Post messages to albanach@egroups.com.  Alter
your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 09/07/2003 3:17:01 PM, kennedy.steven@... writes:

<< I thought I had read that they came from a masonry guild in the middle
ages. >>

  Their origins are older then that. They are not a secret society, but the
work they do during their meetings is secret. It's really not all that
confusing. The problem is that people spread misinformation around and the truth
is
lost.
Polly

I will disagree completely with this statement.  The masons are a secret
society of secret societies.  They swear members to blood oaths, they are
polytheistic and they keep the truth from there members until the highest
rank is achieved.  There advancement ceremonies and meetings are all done in
secret with numerous passwords and secret handshakes and stuff.  There
symbols are even Islamic in origin...the true God of the Masons is not God
Jehovah, but Mahomet, Baal, Satan however you look at it.  This can proven
through many resources and testimonies of former Masons.  I for one do not
wish to be bound by a blood oath that the group can execute me for leaving
or telling the truth (revealing their secrets).  NO WAY..never been a part
of them and I never will.

-----Original Message-----
From: PollyJK@... [mailto:PollyJK@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 6:55 PM
To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [albanach] Digest Number 550



In a message dated 09/07/2003 3:17:01 PM, kennedy.steven@... writes:

<< I thought I had read that they came from a masonry guild in the middle
ages. >>

Their origins are older then that. They are not a secret society, but the
work they do during their meetings is secret. It's really not all that
confusing. The problem is that people spread misinformation around and the
truth is
lost.
Polly


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lindsay wrote:

>Derek
>
>I depends what you mean by 'priest' since Scotland went Protestant in 1560.
>If you mean one of the few remaining Catholic priests, they would have
>dressed in the manner of priests everywhere in Europe at the time. If you
>mean a Protestant minister, the closest pictures you can probably find are
>those of John Knox, George Buchanan etc. They mainly wore black.
>The Clan Tartan's are an early 19th Century concepts (blame Walter Scott)
>and the Clergy tartan will be an even more recent idea.
>On the subject of Tartans, has everyone heard that there is going to be a
>special Freemason tartan. This has struck me as odd since aren't they
>supposed to be a 'secret' society???
>
>Lindsay
>www.gaddgedlar.com
>
>
As a Freemason myself, I can give a bit of background. Freemasonry as we
know it today can only be traced back definitively to the early 1700's.
American Freemasonry diverged in the early 1800's to what we have here
today. For the most part, we are a fraternal brotherhood. You may have
seen the A.F. & A.M. legend. This stands for Ancient Free & Accepted
Masons. Ancient Freemasons are those who worked stone in the dim past.
Accepted Masons are those, like myself, who are scholarly masons and
members of the fraternity but do not work stone.

There are claims of connections to the Knights Templar and even to the
building of King Solomon's Temple. I've studied many books on the
subject and have yet to form a solid opinion one way or the other. There
are a couple of books that have me leaning in certain directions:

<http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2UER2M0748&i\
sbn=1931412758&itm=2>
**Hiram Key: Pharaohs, Freemasons and the Discovery of the Secret
Scrolls of Jesus
<http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2UER2M0748&i\
sbn=1931412758&itm=2>**
Christopher Knight, Robert Lomas

*Paperback*, August 2001

<http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2UER2M0748&i\
sbn=0760720460&itm=10>
**The Second Messiah
<http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2UER2M0748&i\
sbn=1931412766&itm=4>**
Christopher Knight, Robert Lomas

*Paperback*, August 2001

Read these and draw your own conclusions.

The Freemasons are not secret but the rituals are. They have hidden
their meetings due to legal proscription. (In England not in the US.)
Here they are known for their charity and good works. In England they
are often reviled. While my parents were living there, I read in the
paper of a local fire department which turned down donated medical
equipment because a Masonic lodge donated it. If I recall correctly,
they are well regarded in Scotland. The Knights Templar connection runs
through Scotland in fact.

Hope this helps...

--
Yours in service,

Tigherna Donnchadh mac Cainneach
Man-at-Arms to Olaf Bygolly
Haus Brandenburg
www.hausbrandenburg.org



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Derek Godfrey wrote:

>I will disagree completely with this statement.  The masons are a secret
>society of secret societies.  They swear members to blood oaths, they are
>polytheistic and they keep the truth from there members until the highest
>rank is achieved.  There advancement ceremonies and meetings are all done in
>secret with numerous passwords and secret handshakes and stuff.  There
>symbols are even Islamic in origin...the true God of the Masons is not God
>Jehovah, but Mahomet, Baal, Satan however you look at it.  This can proven
>through many resources and testimonies of former Masons.  I for one do not
>wish to be bound by a blood oath that the group can execute me for leaving
>or telling the truth (revealing their secrets).  NO WAY..never been a part
>of them and I never will.
>
>
>
The main qualifications to be a Mason are that you believe in God, join
of your own freewill, and pay your dues.

Perhaps you need to think for yourself and find out rather than blindly
believe what you hear. On the other hand, we Scots do love our sheep.
Keep up the good work!

--
Yours in service,

Tigherna Donnchadh mac Cainneach
Man-at-Arms to Olaf Bygolly
Haus Brandenburg
www.hausbrandenburg.org

I never blindly believe what I hear from anyone.  But when I get it from
many different sources, then I tend to believe it.  It can't be a good thing
if many denominations prohibit Masons from becoming or staying ministers if
they are also Masons.  They obviously know something.  My point is
"believing in God" does not mean to everyone the same thing or the God of
the Bible.  The "All-seeing eye" for example is an occult symbol
representing the Illuminati.

-----Original Message-----
From: Duncan MacKenzie [mailto:croaker@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 10:25 PM
To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [albanach] Digest Number 550


Derek Godfrey wrote:

>I will disagree completely with this statement.  The masons are a secret
>society of secret societies.  They swear members to blood oaths, they are
>polytheistic and they keep the truth from there members until the highest
>rank is achieved.  There advancement ceremonies and meetings are all done
in
>secret with numerous passwords and secret handshakes and stuff.  There
>symbols are even Islamic in origin...the true God of the Masons is not God
>Jehovah, but Mahomet, Baal, Satan however you look at it.  This can proven
>through many resources and testimonies of former Masons.  I for one do not
>wish to be bound by a blood oath that the group can execute me for leaving
>or telling the truth (revealing their secrets).  NO WAY..never been a part
>of them and I never will.
>
>
>
The main qualifications to be a Mason are that you believe in God, join
of your own freewill, and pay your dues.

Perhaps you need to think for yourself and find out rather than blindly
believe what you hear. On the other hand, we Scots do love our sheep.
Keep up the good work!

--
Yours in service,

Tigherna Donnchadh mac Cainneach
Man-at-Arms to Olaf Bygolly
Haus Brandenburg
www.hausbrandenburg.org




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Derek,

I personally am not a mason, nor do I wish to be. And I respect your choice in
the same. I must say however that some of your statements come off as almost
closed minded christian. To say that any other persons beliefs would be
"satanic" is amazing. However, one of my favorite sayings (and one that I live
by) "I may disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your
right to say it". It would be interesting to dig up some more research on the
subject though. Anyone ever seen that movie "The Skulls".... hahahaha

Gavine

Tigherna,

My friend also made reference to the building of King Solomon's temple.
Interesting thing is I am a firefighter, and a large number of my fire dept
"brothers" are masonic. Another thing I found interesing (I dont know how
accurate perhaps you could shed light) was that the Shriners, well known for
their burn center and such, to become a shriner you must be a mason.

Also something that Ive found, the actual masonic symbol as commonly displayed
is of a T-square and a compass style tool. Both of these are tools in the stone
working trade. And if these are Muslim... then I guess all carpenters and
mathemeticians are muslim also......

Gavine

Derek Godfrey wrote:

>I never blindly believe what I hear from anyone.  But when I get it from
>many different sources, then I tend to believe it.  It can't be a good thing
>if many denominations prohibit Masons from becoming or staying ministers if
>they are also Masons.  They obviously know something.  My point is
>"believing in God" does not mean to everyone the same thing or the God of
>the Bible.  The "All-seeing eye" for example is an occult symbol
>representing the Illuminati.
>
>
>
The Illuminati, crop circles, alien abductions, Bigfoot, Nessie, can you
see where this list is going? The "All-seeing eye" hasn't turned up at
my lodge, nor at any others I've visited. All of the above things do
keep people entertained at least. Enjoy your paranoia. I'm too busy
living a life to hide from having one.

--
Yours in service,

Tigherna Donnchadh mac Cainneach
Man-at-Arms to Olaf Bygolly
Haus Brandenburg
www.hausbrandenburg.org

That was a scary movie...didn't see the sequel though.  I am not trying to
come off as closed minded...but I AM a minister (not ordained yet, though)
of the Gospel (Christian/Pentecostal) and I have done quite a bit of
research into this matter.  The Bible says"You cannot serve two
masters...you love the one and hate the other" these are the words of Jesus,
therefore, I have sound theological reasons for my statements..besides what
the Mason's own documents say in their library in DC.

Any further discussion on this matter should be taken into private e-mail,
as it is extremely off-topic and probably distasteful to some.  I apologize
for continuing the discussion this far.

-----Original Message-----
From: scotsfencer@... [mailto:scotsfencer@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 11:49 PM
To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [albanach] Digest Number 550


Derek,

I personally am not a mason, nor do I wish to be. And I respect your choice
in the same. I must say however that some of your statements come off as
almost closed minded christian. To say that any other persons beliefs would
be "satanic" is amazing. However, one of my favorite sayings (and one that I
live by) "I may disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death
for your right to say it". It would be interesting to dig up some more
research on the subject though. Anyone ever seen that movie "The Skulls"....
hahahaha

Gavine






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]