Having not heard from anyone, I'm not sure if this site is working any more.

Question: I have found Irishmen being called "Scotts" in early writings and the
name Scotus and other descriptive type names being used, but haas anyone found
the name "Scott" being used as a first name prior to the 19th century?

Scott Cross
Finn McCroisech O'Breanen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Greetings all!

I have been doing a study on fools and jesters in
England/Scotland/et.al. during the period.  I have come across the
title of "riogdruth" (with an accent over the 'o') - or "king's
fool".  Could someone give me an idea of how to pronounce that
word???  Please???

In service,
Finn the Fool

At 9:57 AM -0500 8/12/02, Scott Cross wrote:
>Having not heard from anyone, I'm not sure if this site is working any more.
>
>Question: I have found Irishmen being called "Scotts" in early
>writings and the name Scotus and other descriptive type names being
>used, but haas anyone found the name "Scott" being used as a first
>name prior to the 19th century?

<Scott> as a given name (first name) is part of the modern trend of
using surnames as given names. Although there are a few examples
(using different surnames, not <Scott>) in England in the late 16th
century, the practice didn't become common until later. I don't know
when Lowland Scots and/or Anglo-Irish picked up the trend themselves,
other than that it was no earlier than the 17th century.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, Gaels (in Ireland or Scotland)
never really picked up the trend -- it is a feature of (modern)
English/Scots language naming cultures.

There are modern Gaelic given names that derive from Lowland/English
surnames, but this is evidence of Gaels adopting Lowland/English
given names into Gaelic, not evidence of Gaels adopting surnames as
given names. For example, in modern Scottish Gaelic there is the
given name <Du\ghlas>. The path of this name is thus:

<Dubh Glas> -- an early medieval Gaelic _placename_

<de Duglas> -- a 12th century Scoto-Norman (not Gaelic) locative _byname_
     taken from the placename
     and indicating that the bearer is of that place

<Douglas> -- a late medieval inherited _surname_
     developed out of the locative byname
     and indicating that the bearer's father had the same surname

<Douglas> -- a 16th century English _given name_ (used in England,
not Scotland)
     taken from the Scottish surname
     first given to an English *girl* who had a close Douglas relative

<Douglas> -- a modern _given name_ in English speaking countries
     taken either from the English given name or taken independently
from the surname
     now, of course, a masculine given name

<Du\ghlas> -- a modern _given name_ in Scottish Gaelic
     taken from the modern given name in English
     and many steps and many centuries removed from the original Gaelic
place name

<Scott>, of course, does not derive from Gaelic -- <Scotus> is Latin,
and later <Scot> is a Scots/English word -- and has not been adopted
into Gaelic language given names as far as I know.

All of which is a long winded way of saying that I can't provide any
examples of <Scott> used as a given (first) name earlier than the
19th century, except to say that there isn't much point in even
looking for any examples earlier than 18th or possibly 17th century
;-)

Sharon
--
Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...

At 4:43 PM +0000 8/12/02, finnthefool wrote:
>Greetings all!
>
>I have been doing a study on fools and jesters in
>England/Scotland/et.al. during the period.  I have come across the
>title of "riogdruth" (with an accent over the 'o') - or "king's
>fool".  Could someone give me an idea of how to pronounce that
>word???  Please???

Where have you come across it? Especially, what is the time frame?
(As with all languages, pronunciations change over time -- and before
giving a pronunciation, I'd like to double check that this is a real
word and, especially, make sure this is an appropriate spelling.
Change the spelling a little and it could really change the
pronunciation a lot ;-)

Sharon
--
Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...

Sharon,

Thanks for your learned input as always. It pretty much confirmed what I
suspected.

Scott

http://alesnde.tripod.com

At 11:56 PM +0000 8/12/02, i8geickmc wrote:
>http://alesnde.tripod.com

I have a feeling this may be spam -- messages that only give a URL
and say "Check this out" are usually spam (especially when the "From"
indicates a nonsense name like "i8geickmc" at a yahoo account) -- but
if it's a real posting from a list member, perhaps the poster could
tell us what's on the site and why we might be interested due to our
interest in medieval Scotland?

Sharon
--
Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...

It has also been a ploy by those lovely folks that are creating virus's to
get folks to open up the link and whammo! so Buyer Beware reguardless...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon L. Krossa" <krossa@...>
To: <albanach@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [albanach] check this site out!.


> At 11:56 PM +0000 8/12/02, i8geickmc wrote:
> >http://alesnde.tripod.com
>
> I have a feeling this may be spam -- messages that only give a URL
> and say "Check this out" are usually spam (especially when the "From"
> indicates a nonsense name like "i8geickmc" at a yahoo account) -- but
> if it's a real posting from a list member, perhaps the poster could
> tell us what's on the site and why we might be interested due to our
> interest in medieval Scotland?
>
> Sharon
> --
> Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...
>
>
> This is Albanach, a group devoted to the study and re-enactment of
> Scotland c. 503-1603 AD.  Post messages to albanach@egroups.com.  Alter
> your account or view the archives at www.egroups.com/list/albanach
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Yup it's just a Popup and Snoopware sender

YIS and in Sleepy Humor  Fearghus


--- i8geickmc <i8geickmc@...> wrote:
> http://alesnde.tripod.com
>
>





=====
Beannachd nas Soilleir ort, agus air gach duine.
(Brightest of Blessings to you and all you hold dear.)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

Don't worry.  The offending address will be removed and banned from the
list.  This is a no SPAM zone, and I intend to keep it that way.  Sorry
for the intrusion.
Aye,
Eogan, your friendly neighborhood list moderator
(my spammy sense is tingling!)

Madainn mhath

My name is Skye, I have recently (February) joined the SCA and am
enjoying it immensely! I have recently deceided to go with a Scottish
persona ( I am a huge geneology buff and I figure I may as well go
with my heritage, helps me learn more!)
I have three girls, Tasia , TayLora, and Sorcha. I live with my Mate
Dare on a farm in Northern BC Canada with several critters.

Well anyhow..that is me.
Looking forward to learning more

Mòran taing
Le gach nì
Skye

Hi all,

I'm currently seeking an SCA name that's more period than my own. I
started with the last half of my midle name ("anne") and have so far
found two variants that were in use in what is now the U.K.: "Aine"
and "Eithne".

Does anyone have any idea on how these names would be pronounced ?

Thanks,

K.

I found it in a book about Fools and Jesters in England -
specifically in a chapter entitled "Warrior Fools".  The chapter
discusses that fools/jesters were armed and part of a fighting unit
in early period.  The author (his name eludes me at the moment)
discusses finding the title of riogdruth in 11th century Irish
sagas.  He divides the word into "riog" (king) and "druth" (the
accent over the 'u' - not the 'o'like I thought) which was one term
for "fool".  I will provide the name of the saga mantioned as well as
the title and author of the book if you need - I left it home.....

Finn

--- In albanach@y..., "Sharon L. Krossa" <krossa@a...> wrote:
> At 4:43 PM +0000 8/12/02, finnthefool wrote:
> >Greetings all!
> >
> >I have been doing a study on fools and jesters in
> >England/Scotland/et.al. during the period.  I have come across the
> >title of "riogdruth" (with an accent over the 'o') - or "king's
> >fool".  Could someone give me an idea of how to pronounce that
> >word???  Please???
>
> Where have you come across it? Especially, what is the time frame?
> (As with all languages, pronunciations change over time -- and
before
> giving a pronunciation, I'd like to double check that this is a
real
> word and, especially, make sure this is an appropriate spelling.
> Change the spelling a little and it could really change the
> pronunciation a lot ;-)
>
> Sharon
> --
> Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@a...

I cannot find the word riógdruth anywhere..it doesn't seem to exist..
however the Irish Gaelic word for King is *rí* the Irish Gaelic word
of *drúth* however.. roughly translated means "harlot or illicit love"

Are you trying to find this in Irish/scottish/welsh/.manx Gaelic?
I can't seem t locate any Irish Gaelic words for fool

Le gach nì
Skye

--- In albanach@y..., "finnthefool" <finnthefool@y...> wrote:
> I found it in a book about Fools and Jesters in England -
> specifically in a chapter entitled "Warrior Fools".  The chapter
> discusses that fools/jesters were armed and part of a fighting unit
> in early period.  The author (his name eludes me at the moment)
> discusses finding the title of riogdruth in 11th century Irish
> sagas.  He divides the word into "riog" (king) and "druth" (the
> accent over the 'u' - not the 'o'like I thought) which was one term
> for "fool".  I will provide the name of the saga mantioned as well
as
> the title and author of the book if you need - I left it home.....
>
> Finn
>
> --- In albanach@y..., "Sharon L. Krossa" <krossa@a...> wrote:
> > At 4:43 PM +0000 8/12/02, finnthefool wrote:
> > >Greetings all!
> > >
> > >I have been doing a study on fools and jesters in
> > >England/Scotland/et.al. during the period.  I have come across
the
> > >title of "riogdruth" (with an accent over the 'o') - or "king's
> > >fool".  Could someone give me an idea of how to pronounce that
> > >word???  Please???
> >
> > Where have you come across it? Especially, what is the time
frame?
> > (As with all languages, pronunciations change over time -- and
> before
> > giving a pronunciation, I'd like to double check that this is a
> real
> > word and, especially, make sure this is an appropriate spelling.
> > Change the spelling a little and it could really change the
> > pronunciation a lot ;-)
> >
> > Sharon
> > --
> > Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@a...

> I have three girls, Tasia , TayLora, and Sorcha. I live with my Mate
> Dare on a farm in Northern BC Canada with several critters.

Greetings!  And welcome to the Crown Principality of the North (I live on
Vancouver Island and am practically your neighbor).

You've found a good place to learn and ask questions, and Matthew & Sharon
have websites with a lot of resources as well.  My apologies, I can't find
the sites at the moment.  If they would be so kind as to repost the URLs
(please).

Morel
Muirgheal inghean Labhrain

I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one . . .

Aine is pronounced "Aw-ne"
and I am not too sure about Eithne - Eithne is Irish so I am not
sure..but I think it is pronounced *ET-ne* and can also be
pronounced "Enya"
Enya is the english spelling for Irish Gaelic Eithene

Anne is Anna in Gaelic (scots) but the informal or diminuitive
version is Annag.  It sounds sort of like aounak - rhymes with sound.

Hope this Helps

Le gach nì
Skye





--- In albanach@y..., "garden_crafter" <garden_crafter@y...> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm currently seeking an SCA name that's more period than my own. I
> started with the last half of my midle name ("anne") and have so
far
> found two variants that were in use in what is now the U.K.: "Aine"
> and "".
>
> Does anyone have any idea on how these names would be pronounced ?
>
> Thanks,
>
> K.

Hai a Muirgheal

Well Hello Neighbour..
a mere..18 hours away! *G*

Yes I am so very pleased that I found you all this a.m., as I have
already learned a great deal about Tartans..which is one of the
reasons I came looking!

Le deagh dhurachd
Skye





> Greetings!  And welcome to the Crown Principality of the North (I
live on
> Vancouver Island and am practically your neighbor).
>
> You've found a good place to learn and ask questions, and Matthew &
Sharon
> have websites with a lot of resources as well.  My apologies, I
can't find
> the sites at the moment.  If they would be so kind as to repost the
URLs
> (please).
>
> Morel
> Muirgheal inghean Labhrain
>
> I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one . . .

> Hai a Muirgheal

Interesting salutation!  Would you translate it for the curious among us?
It sounds like you have much to offer to the list!

> Well Hello Neighbour..
> a mere..18 hours away! *G*

18 hours?  You must be in the very far North of BC.  Ah well, I still
consider you my neighbor.  :^}

Morel
Muirgheal inghean Labhrain

I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one . . .

At 4:22 PM +0000 8/13/02, garden_crafter wrote:
>I'm currently seeking an SCA name that's more period than my own. I
>started with the last half of my midle name ("anne") and have so far
>found two variants that were in use in what is now the U.K.: "Aine"
>and "Eithne".

Note that you need more than just in use in what is now the UK if
your interest is a historically accurate name. Have you read the
relevant articles on Scottish naming at teh Medieval Names Archive
(http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/scottish.shtml)?

Since you're on Albanach, I'm assuming you're interested in a
Scottish persona. The question is, what kind of Scottish persona do
you want? This will make a huge difference for a name.

For example, if you would like a 16th century Lowland persona, then a
name like <Anny> would be quite reasonable. (Interestingly, in
Scotland <Anny> was a diminutive of <Agnes>, not the independent name
<Ann>. I don't have any examples of <Ann> handy -- even the instances
of <Anne> I have in the 16th century seem to be diminutives of
<Agnes> and pronounced like <Anny>. However, I wouldn't be surprised
if in the very late 16th century <Ann>/<Anne> was used due to King
James VI's [foreign] Queen being name <Anne>.)

<Aine> and <Eithne> are Gaelic names, but I don't currently have
evidence that they were used in Scotland (only Ireland). It would be
reasonable to speculate they were also used in Scotland for a very
early Scottish Gaelic persona (say, before the 11th century), but
from the 11th or 12th century it is not really plausible to assume
any Gaelic name in use in Ireland was also in use in Scotland.

Of course, this is dependent on these names having been used in
Ireland in the appropriate centuries. At the moment, the evidence for
use of <Aine> in Ireland is 12th-15th century
(http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/) and the
evidence for use of <Eithne> in Ireland is 7th-11th century.

So, this would make <Eithne> reasonably plausible for Scotland in
that early period, but at the moment <Aine> is not so plausible in
Scotland as the evidence for Ireland is late period.

>Does anyone have any idea on how these names would be pronounced ?

Yes.

<Aine> would have been pronounced roughly

\AHN-yeh\

and pre-1200 <Eithne> would have been pronounced roughly

\EHTH-nyeh\

with the \TH\ pronounced like the unvoiced sound of the <th> in
English <bath> (but *not* like the voiced sound of the <th> in
English <bathe>)

while post-1200 <Eithne> would have been pronounced roughly

\EHN-yeh\

In all cases, the \y\ is pronounced like the <y> in English <yes>.

Please let me know if anything I've written isn't clear, or you have
further questions.

Sharon
--
(Unless otherwise noted, when commenting on names I address
historical authenticity, not SCA registerability.)
-------------------------
Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing, history, & more):
      http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
      The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
      Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/

At 5:47 PM +0000 8/13/02, skye_maclean wrote:
>I cannot find the word riógdruth anywhere..it doesn't seem to exist..
>however the Irish Gaelic word for King is *rí* the Irish Gaelic word
>of *drúth* however.. roughly translated means "harlot or illicit love"
>
>Are you trying to find this in Irish/scottish/welsh/.manx Gaelic?
>I can't seem t locate any Irish Gaelic words for fool

I haven't found anything that tells me what it means, but I have
found forms of it used in medieval texts on the CELT site.
(Unfortunately, I don't have the Dictionary of the Irish Language,
commonly referred to as the DIL, which deals with medieval Gaelic.)

The forms I've found have been (if I recall correctly) <r{i'}gdruth>
and <rioghdruth>.

The inclusion of the <h> after <g> is an issue of different spellings
in different periods -- prior to roughly 1200, the <h> would usually
not be included, increasingly post-1200 it would be.

The inclusion of <o> or not is a matter either of spellings in
different periods and/or spellings/forms in different dialects.
Unfortunately, I can't quite figure out the pronunciation until I
figure out what is going on with that <o>. I'm still working on it.
[Period also will make a difference.]

More details from the source reference might help -- basically
everything that it says regarding the term and where it was found
would be great.

I'm going to ask some folks I know who have the DIL to look up the
word, and when I figure things out I will report back.

Sharon
--
Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@...

At 9:26 PM +0000 8/13/02, skye_maclean wrote:
>Anne is Anna in Gaelic (scots) but the informal or diminuitive
>version is Annag.  It sounds sort of like aounak - rhymes with sound.

These are the modern Scottish Gaelic versions, but this doesn't
necessarily mean they were in use pre-1600. So far I don't have any
evidence for them. Given that <Ann> itself wasn't all that popular in
Lowland Scotland, it would not be the least surprising if these names
did not come into Scottish Gaelic until well after SCA period.

For the list of women's given names I currently have information on
for pre-1600 Scottish Gaelic use, see:

http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/gaelicgiven/

Sharon
--
(Unless otherwise noted, when commenting on names I address
historical authenticity, not SCA registerability.)
-------------------------
Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing, history, & more):
      http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
      The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
      Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/

> For the list of women's given names I currently have information on
> for pre-1600 Scottish Gaelic use, see:
>
> http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/gaelicgiven/

From this I learn that my registered given name is actually likely to be
Irish.

Can you please tell me the proper pronounciation of Cathal?

Thank you!

Morel
Muirgheal inghean Labhrain

I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one . . .

At 5:31 PM -0700 8/13/02, Nancy Zupanic wrote:
>  > For the list of women's given names I currently have information on
>  > for pre-1600 Scottish Gaelic use, see:
>  >
>  > http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/gaelicgiven/
>
>From this I learn that my registered given name is actually likely to be
>Irish.

Well, no, not necessarily -- there are examples of <Muirgheal> used
by Scottish Gaels, they just aren't recorded in Gaelic (and so aren't
recorded in that spelling). The Irish Gaelic examples are there for
the information they give on how the name would appear written in
Gaelic.

[These are very rough drafts, little more than data dumps except for
the article on <Marsail>, but for all of them there is some evidence
of use by Scottish Gaels in the centuries indicated in the index.]

>Can you please tell me the proper pronounciation of Cathal?

Pre-1200, roughly

\KAHTH-ahl\

where the \TH\ is the unvoiced sound of the <th> in English <bath>
(but *not* the voiced sound of the <th> in English <bathe>!)

Post-1200, roughly

\KAH-hahl\

In both cases the \ah\ is pronounced roughly like the <a> in English <father>.

Sharon
--
Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing, history, & more):
      http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
      The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
      Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/

> >From this I learn that my registered given name is actually likely to be
> >Irish.
>
> Well, no, not necessarily -- there are examples of <Muirgheal> used
> by Scottish Gaels,

That's good to know, thank you.

> \KAH-hahl\

Perfect for my 1300-ish Scottish Highland son.

Thank you Cathal and Sharon, your help is very much appreciated!

Morel
Muirgheal inghean Labhrain

I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one . . .

The word was found in the book "Fools and Jesters at the English
Court" by John Southworth (Sutton Publishing 1998).  In the chapter
entitled "Warrior Fools", he makes reference to twelfth-century
manuscripts - specifically the tale of Cath Almaine - where he finds
the character of Ua Maigleine who was described as a riogdruth or
king's fool.

Hope this helps and thanks for your assistance.

Finn

> >Are you trying to find this in Irish/scottish/welsh/.manx Gaelic?
> >I can't seem t locate any Irish Gaelic words for fool
>
> I haven't found anything that tells me what it means, but I have
> found forms of it used in medieval texts on the CELT site.
> (Unfortunately, I don't have the Dictionary of the Irish Language,
> commonly referred to as the DIL, which deals with medieval Gaelic.)
>
> The forms I've found have been (if I recall correctly) <r{i'}
gdruth>
> and <rioghdruth>.
>
> The inclusion of the <h> after <g> is an issue of different
spellings
> in different periods -- prior to roughly 1200, the <h> would
usually
> not be included, increasingly post-1200 it would be.
>
> The inclusion of <o> or not is a matter either of spellings in
> different periods and/or spellings/forms in different dialects.
> Unfortunately, I can't quite figure out the pronunciation until I
> figure out what is going on with that <o>. I'm still working on it.
> [Period also will make a difference.]
>
> More details from the source reference might help -- basically
> everything that it says regarding the term and where it was found
> would be great.
>
> I'm going to ask some folks I know who have the DIL to look up the
> word, and when I figure things out I will report back.
>
> Sharon
> --
> Sharon L. Krossa, krossa@a...

'The Household of the Great Highland Chiefs'
gives
the Fool or Jester as 'an Cleasaiche' - the rest
of the quote says ' The last instance of this
extraordinary appendage to the retinue of the
great, once common to all Europe, was in the
household of Ian Breac, chief of the MacLeods of
Harris.' This is one of a number of pamphlets I
got from Unicorn Limited - most of them are
reprints of Victorian articles and don't give a
lot of provenance, so I can do nothing to
document or verify the accurateness of them. Most
of this one seems to come from the records of the
above mentioned Ian Breac's household - who died
in 1649. Don't know if this helps or hinders -
obviously it does little to help with
'riogdruth'.
Margaret Hepburn

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

Hai is the way Hi is written in Gaelic (I don't know who thought that
one up) and when addressing someone, the vocative case uses an "a"
before someone's name if it starts with a consonant.  Also a name
beginning in a consonant in the vocative is lenited (adding the h
after the initial consonant).... this is what I was taught:)

I have been learning Gaelic for just over a year now,  and
unfortunatley I was daft enough to try to learn phonetically on my
own:) hahahaa
so now I am re-learning scots Gaelic.
Luckily I have the help from my Clan or I would be lost.


Beannachd leibh,
Skye


--- In albanach@y..., "Nancy Zupanic" <bearpaws@i...> wrote:
>
> > Hai a Muirgheal
>
> Interesting salutation!  Would you translate it for the curious
among us?
> It sounds like you have much to offer to the list!
>
> > Well Hello Neighbour..
> > a mere..18 hours away! *G*
>
> 18 hours?  You must be in the very far North of BC.  Ah well, I
still
> consider you my neighbor.  :^}
>
> Morel
> Muirgheal inghean Labhrain
>
> I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one . . .

Hello All,
Sorry I haven't been active on this list but have been receiving your posts. 
Unfortunately, I haven't the knowledge base that you "old timers" :) have, so I
have not commented.  I traveled recently to Franklin, NC for the 2nd time in 2
years and saw Matt at the Scottish Museum, my second visit...got great photos
that I can post when I get my scanner set up, with permission of course, for
those of you who live too far to visit... I am a Buchanan and made a few
wonderful purchases at the store there...Very happy with them!!!  As far as
names...I would like to use Cassandra Buchanan instead of my given name Kathie. 
This choice is based on one of  Shakespeare's characters in Troillus and
Cresidda who came in and foretold the future demise of Troy and the death of
Hector...but no one listened.  I identified with this character...due to my work
(I do card readings and am presently working with police on some
abductions/visions) I am also an artist/teacher/History.  My mother called me
Cassy Ann (Ann is my given middle name) and at times, Cassandra...so it seems
appropriate.  Any info about the name "Cassandra"  would be greatly appreciated.
Respectfully,
Kabe aka Cassandra

----- Original Message -----
From: Sharon L. Krossa
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 9:19 PM
To: albanach@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [albanach] Muirgheal & Cathal (was: Pronunciation - Aine & Eithne)

At 5:31 PM -0700 8/13/02, Nancy Zupanic wrote:
>  > For the list of women's given names I currently have information on
>  > for pre-1600 Scottish Gaelic use, see:
>  >
>  > http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/gaelicgiven/
>
>From this I learn that my registered given name is actually likely to be
>Irish.

Well, no, not necessarily -- there are examples of <Muirgheal> used
by Scottish Gaels, they just aren't recorded in Gaelic (and so aren't
recorded in that spelling). The Irish Gaelic examples are there for
the information they give on how the name would appear written in
Gaelic.

[These are very rough drafts, little more than data dumps except for
the article on <Marsail>, but for all of them there is some evidence
of use by Scottish Gaels in the centuries indicated in the index.]

>Can you please tell me the proper pronounciation of Cathal?

Pre-1200, roughly

\KAHTH-ahl\

where the \TH\ is the unvoiced sound of the <th> in English <bath>
(but *not* the voiced sound of the <th> in English <bathe>!)

Post-1200, roughly

\KAH-hahl\

In both cases the \ah\ is pronounced roughly like the <a> in English <father>.

Sharon
--
Sharon Krossa, krossa@...
Medieval Scotland (including resources for names, clothing, history, & more):
      http://www.MedievalScotland.org/
The most complete index of reliable web articles about pre-1600 names:
      The Medieval Names Archive - http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/
Consultations about re-creating historically accurate pre-1600 names:
      Academy of Saint Gabriel - http://www.s-gabriel.org/

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Any info about the name "Cassandra"  would be greatly appreciated.

Greetings!

From the Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names:
Cassandra.  .... (stuff about the Trojans you already know)....  we thus
find <Cassandra>, like <Hector> q.v., a common Christian name in the 13th
and 14th C.  It is first recorded about 1207, and though it became less
common in the 15th and subsequent centuries, it never quite died out.

The name is listed in the Curia Regis Rolls in 1207 and 1210-13, in the
Feudal Aids in 1302-3, and in the Hundred Rolls 1273.  It does not say
specifically that the name was used in Lowland Scotland, though it would be
acceptable with a Scottish (Scots) surname for SCA purposes.

Sorry I can't tell you more.

Morel
Muirgheal inghean Labhrain

I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one . . .

> Hai is the way Hi is written in Gaelic (I don't know who thought that
> one up) and when addressing someone, the vocative case uses an "a"
> before someone's name if it starts with a consonant.

Thank you - that's quite interesting!

> I have been learning Gaelic for just over a year now,  and
> unfortunatley I was daft enough to try to learn phonetically on my
> own:) hahahaa
> so now I am re-learning scots Gaelic.
> Luckily I have the help from my Clan or I would be lost.

If I get to learn it, it will be through tapes and books, I'm afraid.
Though I can chat with one of the kingdom Heralds whenever I see him for
practise.

Thanks muchly,

Morel
Muirgheal inghean Labhrain

I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one . . .