We too were intrigued by the place, after passing it many times. We finally went
and rapped the drops. Two raps maybe? One of them pretty long, but can't
remember the details. Very fluted drop. You rock, Joe!
Ram

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "bodhijoe" <joe@...> wrote:
>
> After peering down the head of Jolley Gulch from the East Rim Trail numerous
times over the years, last year my family finally took the time to do a
leisurely stroll up from the bottom just to see what was there. This isn't the
most exciting hike by any means, but it was a fun little 3-hour diversion. And
if I can take my 68yo mother and 2yo daughter on a hike and they come back with
smiles on their faces, the route gets a thumbs up in my book! :) -Joe
>
> Photos:
> http://www.citrusmilo.com/zionguide/jolleygulchpix.cfm
>

After peering down the head of Jolley Gulch from the East Rim Trail numerous
times over the years, last year my family finally took the time to do a
leisurely stroll up from the bottom just to see what was there. This isn't the
most exciting hike by any means, but it was a fun little 3-hour diversion. And
if I can take my 68yo mother and 2yo daughter on a hike and they come back with
smiles on their faces, the route gets a thumbs up in my book! :) -Joe

Photos:
http://www.citrusmilo.com/zionguide/jolleygulchpix.cfm

No snow yet, so everything is still open.  10 deg to 15 deg at night at
altitude.  20 degrees this morning at 7 am at 5000 feet.  Winter camping for
sure.

Lee Pass to La Verkin creek could be quite good right now.  It allows camping at
the lower altitude (slightly warmer).  Hike down to campsite 5, 6 or 7, then
daytrip to the view of Kolob Arch; second day, maybe daytrip further up
LaVerkin, then back to camp and hike out.

Out through Checkerboard Pass (see descriptions of Fat Man's Misery), then
camping outside the park (or inside, with permit) would be OK, but would require
carrying all water, probably.  It's been pretty dry, might be hard to find
potholes to pump.

Tom

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "bodhijoe" <joe@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Matt - Looks like the forecast is for overnight lows just above freezing in
Springdale which means things will be pretty cold on the upper plateaus. West
Rim and East Rim are still possibilities if your friends don't mind the cold.
I'd also throw in hiking south through Checkerboard Mesa Canyon and camping
somewhere random in the slickrock north of Parunuweap.
>
> But have them check conditions at the backcountry desk. Snow and ice can make
both the West and East Rim treacherous in parts and the Kolob Terrace Road gets
closed by snow in winter. (Anybody know if there's any snow up at Lava Point
yet?)
>
> Personally, I'd go for the Chinle gig. While it might not be the most stunning
part of the park, it is pretty pleasant hiking in the colder months. IMO
campsites 1-3 are pretty cool, but 4 and 5 are exposed and not very appealing
(to me). Plenty of nice sandy places to camp in upper Coalpits as well.
> http://www.citrusmilo.com/zionguide/chinletrailmap.cfm
>
> I'm curious what they decide to do and how it goes for them, so please report
back! -Joe
>
>
> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "matt_andersao"
<matt_andersao@> wrote:
> >
> > I have some friends who want to do some "backpacking" in Zion over
Thanksgiving. As in at least one night.  They asked my opinion but I am at a
loss as to what to tell them as the lateness of the season. I have suggested the
Chinle/Coalpits Wash trails but that is about all I could think of...Would it be
too late/cold for Canaan? West Rim? East Rim? Anything else in the greater Zion
area you can think of?
> >
>

Hi Matt - Looks like the forecast is for overnight lows just above freezing in
Springdale which means things will be pretty cold on the upper plateaus. West
Rim and East Rim are still possibilities if your friends don't mind the cold.
I'd also throw in hiking south through Checkerboard Mesa Canyon and camping
somewhere random in the slickrock north of Parunuweap.

But have them check conditions at the backcountry desk. Snow and ice can make
both the West and East Rim treacherous in parts and the Kolob Terrace Road gets
closed by snow in winter. (Anybody know if there's any snow up at Lava Point
yet?)

Personally, I'd go for the Chinle gig. While it might not be the most stunning
part of the park, it is pretty pleasant hiking in the colder months. IMO
campsites 1-3 are pretty cool, but 4 and 5 are exposed and not very appealing
(to me). Plenty of nice sandy places to camp in upper Coalpits as well.
http://www.citrusmilo.com/zionguide/chinletrailmap.cfm

I'm curious what they decide to do and how it goes for them, so please report
back! -Joe


--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "matt_andersao"
<matt_andersao@...> wrote:
>
> I have some friends who want to do some "backpacking" in Zion over
Thanksgiving. As in at least one night.  They asked my opinion but I am at a
loss as to what to tell them as the lateness of the season. I have suggested the
Chinle/Coalpits Wash trails but that is about all I could think of...Would it be
too late/cold for Canaan? West Rim? East Rim? Anything else in the greater Zion
area you can think of?
>

I have some friends who want to do some "backpacking" in Zion over Thanksgiving.
As in at least one night.  They asked my opinion but I am at a loss as to what
to tell them as the lateness of the season. I have suggested the Chinle/Coalpits
Wash trails but that is about all I could think of...Would it be too late/cold
for Canaan? West Rim? East Rim? Anything else in the greater Zion area you can
think of?

Wow, Felicia, I'll echo Jeff's comments... your Wave photos are fantastic! I
didn't know there were so many interesting arch formations in the area. -Joe

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "iamfeliciaus"
<canyoncaper@...> wrote:
>
>
> We play the lottery.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/y9nhcew
>

We play the lottery.

http://tinyurl.com/y9nhcew

I got my permit online that way too. However, now it is not so easy. Even online
it is a lottery system. They collect all the applications for each day all
month, and then draw the winning application from the pool. They notify the
winning applicant on the first of the next month. Below is directly from their
web page:

"Why is there a lottery and how does it work?

Coyote Buttes North is an internationally renowned hiking destination. In order
to make it fair for everyone who wishes to visit, a lottery system has been put
in place. (Coyote Buttes South is still on the calendar system) The lottery
works like this:

     * You can apply up to four months in advance.
     * You have an entire month to apply.
     * You can apply for up to three entry dates per application. If you are a
successful applicant you will only be authorized one trip.
     * There is a non-refundable $5 administrative fee to apply per application.
     * You will be notified on the first of the month via e-mail whether your
application was successful or not.
     * See the "Lottery Example" below for a more detailed explanation.

Lottery Example

Let's say you wanted to visit Coyote Buttes North in April. Here is the
procedure you would follow.

     * Go to the Permit Page between Dec. 1 and Dec. 31.
     * Follow the directions, choosing up to three possible entry dates. If
successful, you will only be authorized one date.
     * You will be notified via e-mail the first day in January whether your
lottery application was successful or not.
     * After being notified, you will have 14 calendar days to pay for your
permit. You can pay online with your credit card. Your e-mail notification will
contain a link to a secure web page, where you can go to pay and submit the
remainder of your trip information.
     * Your permit will be mailed to you four to six weeks after you have paid
your fees, unless you chose the option to pick it up in Kanab, St. George, or
the Paria Contact Station when you filled out your permit application.

What are the odds of getting a permit online?

Permits for Coyote Buttes South are usually available. If you enter the lottery
for Coyote Buttes North, attempting to obtain a permit for the months of April,
May, September, or October, the odds are about 10%. For other months
(off-season), the odds are better."

That said, why not give Coyote Buttes south a try? Although perhaps not as
spectacular as the wave itself, it is beautiful in its own way, and there is
more of it. I would recommend a four wheel drive vehicle to negotiate the deep
sand so as to avoid a long hike.
Cliff




--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "matt_andersao"
<matt_andersao@...> wrote:
>
> Ive been to the wave two times. I received the permits two different ways.
First as you noticed the online calendar is always sold out, but if you log on
the first day of the month at 12:00 (Arizona Time) that is when the next month
(4 months out) goes online and it is first come first reserve.  When I reserved
mine, they were all gone for the entire month in under 5 minutes.  The second
way was the lottery. It took a couple months to get the permits this route but
it worked. Good look

What about Crack in the Wall on the way to Coyote Gulch for Split Rock?

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "bodhijoe" <joe@...> wrote:
>
> Two more guesses for "Split Rock" -- Choprock and Hole in the Rock,
Escalante/Glen Canyon.
>
> But a good word puzzle wouldn't have the answer in the clue.
>
> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "bodhijoe" <joe@> wrote:
> >
> > Hmmmm... I'll take a stab:
> >
> > "Crimson cathedrals" -- the formations in Bryce Canyon
> >
> > "Ocean of Stone" -- The Wave, Coyote Buttes
> >
> > "Split Rock" -- Zion's Altar of Sacrifice? or Cedar BREAKS?
> >
> > Are these word puzzles and do I get a prize if any of these are correct? :)
-Joe
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, wishisan <no_reply@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, I know this is a weird request but bear with me!
> > >
> > > I'm looking for a place in Utah, that's described in riddles.
> > >
> > > Does anyone know anywhere that someone could call "crimson cathedrals" or
a "split rock" or a place that you could describe as an "ocean of stone"?
They're different places but must be pretty near each other.
> > >
> > > I think they're either in St. George or in Zion National Park, so thought
you might be able to help!
> > >
> >
>

This is probably a pretty simple puzzle, mostly with words, I would not go too
deep into it.

Isn't there a Cathedral Valley in Capitol Reef?
And the Wave fits the ocean.
I like Cedar Breaks for Split Rock, in the spirit of word games.

Ive been to the wave two times. I received the permits two different ways. First
as you noticed the online calendar is always sold out, but if you log on the
first day of the month at 12:00 (Arizona Time) that is when the next month (4
months out) goes online and it is first come first reserve.  When I reserved
mine, they were all gone for the entire month in under 5 minutes.  The second
way was the lottery. It took a couple months to get the permits this route but
it worked. Good look

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jb838@...> wrote:
>
> The photos you took at the Wave were equally amazing.
>
> How did you obtain your permits?  Online or walk up? Someday I'd like to
visit, but I can't seem to grasp or gauge the difficulty of the process of
securing the permits.  Seems like when I've looked at the online site that the
permits are always sold out.  jeff
>
> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, rebgolfer@ wrote:
> >
> > Enjoyed the pictures.  The foliage was wonderful that late in the  year.
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 11/18/2009 5:47:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> > canyoncaper@ writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Here are some pictures that I took in Zion on November 8,  2009:
> >
> > _http://tinyurl.http://tiny_ (http://tinyurl.com/yj7yfdk)
> >
>

Ive been to the wave two times. I received the permits two different ways. First
as you noticed the online calendar is always sold out, but if you log on the
first day of the month at 12:00 (Arizona Time) that is when the next month (4
months out) goes online and it is first come first reserve.  When I reserved
mine, they were all gone for the entire month in under 5 minutes.  The second
way was the lottery. It took a couple months to get the permits this route but
it worked. Good look

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "jeff" <jb838@...> wrote:
>
> The photos you took at the Wave were equally amazing.
>
> How did you obtain your permits?  Online or walk up? Someday I'd like to
visit, but I can't seem to grasp or gauge the difficulty of the process of
securing the permits.  Seems like when I've looked at the online site that the
permits are always sold out.  jeff
>
> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, rebgolfer@ wrote:
> >
> > Enjoyed the pictures.  The foliage was wonderful that late in the  year.
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 11/18/2009 5:47:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> > canyoncaper@ writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Here are some pictures that I took in Zion on November 8,  2009:
> >
> > _http://tinyurl.http://tiny_ (http://tinyurl.com/yj7yfdk)
> >
>

Even more out there, "Split Rock" could be a metaphor for the Glen Canyon Dam --
acting as a wedge splitting or separating the rock canyon walls. And that's
pretty close to the Wave. If we can pinpoint the center of the three landmarks
we should start digging to find the treasure. :)

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, rebgolfer@... wrote:
>
> _http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2944511170077438229wvWCYo_
> (http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2944511170077438229wvWCYo)
>
> The above URL connects to a photo in a webshots album and titled "Split
> Rock" and says it is in Utah.  I agree with Joe on "The Wave" in Coyote
> Buttes and maybe the cathedral is the "Alter of Sacrifice"  This would make 
them
> all in Utah but maybe 100 miles apart.  There is also a Split Rock  trail
> on Antelope Island in the Great Salt Lake.
>
> Can you share the context of your puzzle?
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 11/19/2009 3:13:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> joe@... writes:
>
>
>
>
> Two more guesses for "Split Rock" -- Choprock and Hole in the Rock,
> Escalante/Glen Canyon.
>
> But a good word puzzle wouldn't have the answer  in the clue.
>
> --- In _Zion_National_Zion_NationaZion_NationaZio_
> (mailto:Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com) ,  "bodhijoe" <joe@> wrote:
> >
> > Hmmmm... I'll take a  stab:
> >
> > "Crimson cathedrals" -- the formations in Bryce  Canyon
> >
> > "Ocean of Stone" -- The Wave, Coyote Buttes
> >
> > "Split Rock" -- Zion's Altar of Sacrifice? or Cedar BREAKS?
> >
> > Are these word puzzles and do I get a prize if any of these are  correct?
> :) -Joe
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In _Zion_National_Zion_NationaZion_NationaZio_
> (mailto:Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com) ,  wishisan <no_reply@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, I know this is  a weird request but bear with me!
> > >
> > > I'm looking for  a place in Utah, that's described in riddles.
> > >
> > > Does  anyone know anywhere that someone could call "crimson cathedrals"
> or a "split  rock" or a place that you could describe as an "ocean of
> stone"? They're  different places but must be pretty near each other.
> > >
> >  > I think they're either in St. George or in Zion National Park, so
> thought  you might be able to help!
> > >
> >
>

Bryant-Denny Stadium?  Oops, wrong state.  Nevermind.

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, bruce silliman <weabruce@...>
wrote:
>
> Never heard those phrases used to describe Bryce.
>
> bruce from bryce
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 12:01 PM, bodhijoe <joe@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hmmmm... I'll take a stab:
> >
> > "Crimson cathedrals" -- the formations in Bryce Canyon
> >
> > "Ocean of Stone" -- The Wave, Coyote Buttes
> >
> > "Split Rock" -- Zion's Altar of Sacrifice? or Cedar BREAKS?
> >
> > Are these word puzzles and do I get a prize if any of these are correct? :)
> > -Joe
> >
> > --- In
Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com<Zion_National_Park_Hiking%40yahoogroup\
s.com>,
> > wishisan <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, I know this is a weird request but bear with me!
> > >
> > > I'm looking for a place in Utah, that's described in riddles.
> > >
> > > Does anyone know anywhere that someone could call "crimson cathedrals" or
> > a "split rock" or a place that you could describe as an "ocean of stone"?
> > They're different places but must be pretty near each other.
> > >
> > > I think they're either in St. George or in Zion National Park, so thought
> > you might be able to help!
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>

Two more guesses for "Split Rock" -- Choprock and Hole in the Rock,
Escalante/Glen Canyon.

But a good word puzzle wouldn't have the answer in the clue.

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, "bodhijoe" <joe@...> wrote:
>
> Hmmmm... I'll take a stab:
>
> "Crimson cathedrals" -- the formations in Bryce Canyon
>
> "Ocean of Stone" -- The Wave, Coyote Buttes
>
> "Split Rock" -- Zion's Altar of Sacrifice? or Cedar BREAKS?
>
> Are these word puzzles and do I get a prize if any of these are correct? :)
-Joe
>
>
>
> --- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, wishisan <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, I know this is a weird request but bear with me!
> >
> > I'm looking for a place in Utah, that's described in riddles.
> >
> > Does anyone know anywhere that someone could call "crimson cathedrals" or a
"split rock" or a place that you could describe as an "ocean of stone"? They're
different places but must be pretty near each other.
> >
> > I think they're either in St. George or in Zion National Park, so thought
you might be able to help!
> >
>

Hmmmm... I'll take a stab:

"Crimson cathedrals" -- the formations in Bryce Canyon

"Ocean of Stone" -- The Wave, Coyote Buttes

"Split Rock" -- Zion's Altar of Sacrifice? or Cedar BREAKS?

Are these word puzzles and do I get a prize if any of these are correct? :) -Joe



--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, wishisan <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, I know this is a weird request but bear with me!
>
> I'm looking for a place in Utah, that's described in riddles.
>
> Does anyone know anywhere that someone could call "crimson cathedrals" or a
"split rock" or a place that you could describe as an "ocean of stone"? They're
different places but must be pretty near each other.
>
> I think they're either in St. George or in Zion National Park, so thought you
might be able to help!
>

Hi, I know this is a weird request but bear with me!

I'm looking for a place in Utah, that's described in riddles.

Does anyone know anywhere that someone could call "crimson cathedrals" or a
"split rock" or a place that you could describe as an "ocean of stone"? They're
different places but must be pretty near each other.

I think they're either in St. George or in Zion National Park, so thought you
might be able to help!

The photos you took at the Wave were equally amazing.

How did you obtain your permits?  Online or walk up? Someday I'd like to visit,
but I can't seem to grasp or gauge the difficulty of the process of securing the
permits.  Seems like when I've looked at the online site that the permits are
always sold out.  jeff

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, rebgolfer@... wrote:
>
> Enjoyed the pictures.  The foliage was wonderful that late in the  year.
>
>
> In a message dated 11/18/2009 5:47:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> canyoncaper@... writes:
>
>
>
>
>
> Here are some pictures that I took in Zion on November 8,  2009:
>
> _http://tinyurl.http://tiny_ (http://tinyurl.com/yj7yfdk)
>

So, I intentionally did not offer up Angel's Landing/Scout Lookout for a couple
of reasons.  First, I have no idea about these folks fitness and that hike can
be strenuous.  Second, their four hour timeframe that was originally mentioned. 
As wonderful as this hike is, it would be the only thing they accomplished in
that time.  My recommendations were meant to hopefully maximize exposure to what
the park is known for and to get them excited to come back and explore more. 
That being said, Angel's Landing is truly an amazing experience and if you have
more time than 4 hours and are fit enough to handle the elevation and distance,
I would do that and the riverwalk before anything else in the park.  The other
great suggestion that I always forget about is the Canyon Overlook trail.  It's
short, easy, and has great views.  I would stay away from Hidden Canyon, it will
be cold and will also take most of your 4 hour window.

Tons of great advice coming out, though, and I'm happy to see the involvement
from so many group members.  Even if you really only have 4 hours to spend, I
think it's worth the drive.  My suggestion is to head out of Vegas early and
plan to spend most of the day.  Driving after dark isn't a problem if you keep
your eyes peeled for wildlife between Zion and Hurricane on Hwy. 9.  However,
incidents are rare, the highway is wide, and it's a short stretch of driving.

Dean

Bring warm clothes. Hidden Canyon is shaded.


On Nov 18, 2009, at 6:46 PM, rockie1212@... wrote:

> True - I'm actually booking the car with AirMiles tonight.  I'll have a look
at Hidden Canyon,I don't remember seeing that one.

Those pictures wer beautifu, thanks Bob!  And thanks for the tips on the gear
too.

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, rebgolfer@... wrote:
>
> _http://www.zionnational-park.com/images/album2/index10.htm_
> (http://www.zionnational-park.com/images/album2/index10.htm)
>
> Kathy,
>
> If you haven't already, check out the above URL for Bo & Tanya's  Angel's
> Landing hike photos and description.  Browse through the photos and  then
> click on Trail Description for the details.
>
> I say if you have a full day, definitely go to Zion.  As others have
> suggested, Angel's Landing is a highlight if you can handle the height as well
> as the 1500 feet in elevation.  This hike is one of three on my hike bucket
> list with Machu Picchu in Peru and Half Dome in Yosemite.  I expect it will
> be a hike you will talk about for years to come.  If you decide to do it,
> be sure you have good hiking shoes and take plenty of water.  I prefer
> using a Camelbak or similar product because you have constant access to your
> mouthpiece and drink in sips as you need.  If you decide to stay for  sunset,
> I think the biggest concern from Zion to St George is deer.   However, I
> yield to the local more experienced people to comment on the  driving.  Once
to
> St George, it is Interstate back to Las Vegas.
>
> Good luck with whatever you decide.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 11/16/2009 10:36:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> K.TELLIER@... writes:
>
>
>
>
> My girlfriend and I are flying into Vegas next Sunday and we're trying to
> decide between taking a bus tour up to the park or just renting a car and
> driving up ourselves. We've never been to the park - or to Vegas before, so
> we're a little nervous about being on our own. I tried to contact a few
> places  in Springfield to see if they what they would charge for to take
either
> 2 or 4  of us on a 4 hour guided hike. One wanted $150 per person and the
> other wanted  $175.00! Does anyone know anywhere more reasonable, or would we
> be okay on our  own? And if we only have 4 hours, what would you recomend we
> see? We would  really appreciate any help you could offer. Thanks - Kathy
>

Those pictures wer beautifu, thanks Bob!  And thanks for the tips on the gear
too.

--- In Zion_National_Park_Hiking@yahoogroups.com, rebgolfer@... wrote:
>
> _http://www.zionnational-park.com/images/album2/index10.htm_
> (http://www.zionnational-park.com/images/album2/index10.htm)
>
> Kathy,
>
> If you haven't already, check out the above URL for Bo & Tanya's  Angel's
> Landing hike photos and description.  Browse through the photos and  then
> click on Trail Description for the details.
>
> I say if you have a full day, definitely go to Zion.  As others have
> suggested, Angel's Landing is a highlight if you can handle the height as well
> as the 1500 feet in elevation.  This hike is one of three on my hike bucket
> list with Machu Picchu in Peru and Half Dome in Yosemite.  I expect it will
> be a hike you will talk about for years to come.  If you decide to do it,
> be sure you have good hiking shoes and take plenty of water.  I prefer
> using a Camelbak or similar product because you have constant access to your
> mouthpiece and drink in sips as you need.  If you decide to stay for  sunset,
> I think the biggest concern from Zion to St George is deer.   However, I
> yield to the local more experienced people to comment on the  driving.  Once
to
> St George, it is Interstate back to Las Vegas.
>
> Good luck with whatever you decide.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 11/16/2009 10:36:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> K.TELLIER@... writes:
>
>
>
>
> My girlfriend and I are flying into Vegas next Sunday and we're trying to
> decide between taking a bus tour up to the park or just renting a car and
> driving up ourselves. We've never been to the park - or to Vegas before, so
> we're a little nervous about being on our own. I tried to contact a few
> places  in Springfield to see if they what they would charge for to take
either
> 2 or 4  of us on a 4 hour guided hike. One wanted $150 per person and the
> other wanted  $175.00! Does anyone know anywhere more reasonable, or would we
> be okay on our  own? And if we only have 4 hours, what would you recomend we
> see? We would  really appreciate any help you could offer. Thanks - Kathy
>