Van: Andres Espino <ima_very_cool_cowboy@...>
> In countries which offer a lot of social welfare programs

maybe you should name a few, so we can talk more concretely about
the different situations

> there are large numbers content to sit back on the "dole" and
> draw a cheque, food coupons, housing benefits and so on.

I don't think "content" is the right word. There's several factors (NL):
- people simply see the reality, that they don't have a chance to find work.
either because they don't have the skills/diploma's (and if they go to
school to get them, they don't get money at all !!) or because they are
"too old" (for youthwages that is)
- people are siderailed into "unfit for work/handicapped"-benefits
- people know they can't work for 40 hours a week, or think that they have
better things to do (raising children, doing unpaid work).

And then there's the poverty-trap: If you're on the dole, and start to work
10 hours a week, you gain 0 euro's a month, because it gets deducted.
20 hours a week, same story. Only if you earn more than the dole is,
you gain a little - but when it gets a few hundred above, you lose other
benefits. In other words: you pay for the "privilege" of having a job.
It's this situation that led to calls for a *basic income*: give people a
few
hundred euro's a month, so they won't go hungry or homeless, and let
them choose for themselves how much they want to work and earn extra.

As to the level of the dole:in the netherlands it's viable, if you don't
have expensive hobbies such as children, prostitutes, illegal
addictions, gambling, airline-travel, smoking, a car...

In germany unemployment means poverty (harz-4)

In denmark (or norway/sweden) it seems that the dole is reasonably high,
but people who loose their job are forced to get more education right away.
[correct me if I'm wrong]

> In the US it has become a serious problem where some states
> have made it a requirement that one do community service in
> order to receive social welfare.

What problem exactly? Service for how many hours a week?

> New York tried this for a while when I lived there and it was termed
> "workfare". Large numbers protested the requirement and I think
> the practice has since been discontinued.

In NL there's some municipalities that try "work first". protests arise
because it's usually boring, monotonous work that anyone can do
for a few hours a week, but almost noone can handle for 30 or 40.
"there's race horses and workhorses, and since we have a shortage
of racehorses (intellectuals and highly schooled), we make racehorses
pull the plough" - at least that's my impression

> Lots of similar articles have been written about the British "dole"
> system and why it isn't working as hoped.

What was hoped then? That it would lead to full employment? In an
economy based on competition, yeah right...

> While some people like yourself [=michel] have integrity and
> pride and will do the right thing for the sake of "rightness",

sometimes paid work is the wrong thing...

> most people that I have observed will only do the minimum
> and need motivation or pressure to do the right thing.

a *basic income* would provide this motivation

> Many would become "layabouts" and do nothing

If that means they also consume modestly, that would be beneficial
for the ecology. Modesty is not a sin.
Moreover, doing nothing is boring. Sure, if it lasts a few months you
can watch video's and visit friends... but when it lasts for years, and
in the summer everyone you know is gone on holidays...

> This has been the fault with communistic countries in the past.
> people will not generally share in "common" willingly and so a
> strong state has to enforce it on people.

Partly I agree. For the other part I think that those states were
simply too big and centralized. No room to try things on a smaller
scale, and if something improves it doesn't show in the big picture

> Society stagnates like Cuba,

maybe we should lift the US-embargo on Cuba, and then give it 10 or 20
years to see what happens

And if you talk about freeloaders, I think the real ones are those who
catch dozens of worker-salaries or more, sometimes even without
working themselves (shareholders) - but that aside

groetjes, Ronaldo