I don't want to step on anyone's toes and mean no disrespect, and sincerely
appologise if my comments do cause anyone discomfort.

However at times I find it difficult to understand some people's comments on
this list, due to their content of acronisms or "shortcut comments" that others
more familiar with, or more schooled in the subject matter, understand, than I
often do.

With that disclaimer in mind, I would like to expand on Juliana's words below.

Tilting or jousting, involves two opponants charging at each other with lances
with the intent to strike the opposing rider's target (usually ecranch shield,
in later period jousting forms, such as we are refering to here).

Historically, tilting was first done head on, with the lances being aimed
straight forward. Unfortunately for those involved, this frequently resulted in
the horses and riders running head long into each other, with many injuries and
some fatalities being a common  result, even if both rider's lances missed
hitting their targets.

To prevent such accidental collision injuries, a barrier was used, so the horses
were seperated by it and could only run past each other , while being on
opposite sides of the it. However, with the riders no longer being straight in
front of each other, they had to change where they aimed their lances, and turn
them to the side so they pointed over the top of the barrier at the opposing
rider's target.

Now the mathematics of joisting dictate that the longer a jouster's lance is,
the closer to straight forward it can be aimed and still have the tip hit the
opponant's target, in a joust. This also means that more force is transfered to
that impact, and this means the likelyhood of the tip breaking is greater too.

However it is also obvious that the longer a lance is, the heavier it also
becomes , and the more difficult it is to hold, raise and lower and aim at the
target. So to compromise, and allow a lance to be both managable and still be
able to reach it's target and hit with sufficient force to break thew tip, a
typical jousting lance should be in the 11 feet long to 14 feet long range of
lengths, with the longer lengths being more appropriate for stronger historical
warriors and 11 to 12 feet being better suited for gamimg jousters like us.

Lances much shorter than 11 feet, would need to be held more sideways, just in
order to even reach a rider's target, as it passes on the far side of a barrier,
and so is hardly suitable for bals tipped jousting.

Unfortunately , when Equestrian rules within the SCA were first drafted by
Countess Iseult, she quantified lance lengths used in lance work games at 9 feet
( still in IKEqC, I believe) and ended up setting a standard that was too easily
acepted, since shorter lances are lighter and easier to manipulate. For a while
lances over 9 feet long were not allowed by some Marshals untill I reminded
Misteress Yasmina of the difficulty and she added longer lenghts specifically
being permitted, in her rewriting of the Society Equestrian Manual which is now
in force.

Now when Juliana states that the lances are too long to work in Jean's covered
arena in Browns Valley, she is refering to the clearance distance above a rider
( which I believe is around 10 feet above an average horse's back - that is the
clear space between the saddle and the lowest cross beams of the wooden rafters,
from which the roof structer of the covered arena is constructed, overhead)
being less than the length needed for free use of an 11 to 12 foot long lance
while riding an average horse, say about 15 hends tall.

The form of holding a jousting lance that I believe Juliana was teaching, is a
form that was used historically, and is commonly used outside the SCA, by modern
competative jousters. It is a form that not only seems to lend itself to safer
engagements today, but historically seems to be depicted in many period
illustrations of jousters in the later middle ages.

To use such form requires an overhead clearance of closer to 14 feet or possibly
a bit more, above the saddle's height off the ground, and for a tall draft 
horse, it can possibly total as much as 20 or 21 feet from ground to the bottom
of an overhead structure.


I hope this helps clarify, for those who may not be quite sure of what was being
refered to.

Henrik

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++











--- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "juliana_of_avon" <la3luna@...> wrote:
>
> Hamish,
>
> Regarding Browns Valley. We found out that our 11.5'(+) jousting lances won't
clear the joists at Jean's arena. I was on a 15.1hh horse. Otherwise, the site
is splendid for everything else.
>
> YIS,
>
> Juliana
>
> --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, David Walters <wyllow@> wrote:
> >
> > Siobhan,
> >  
> > This sounds like a clinic I'd love to attend.  I'd be willing to cross the
mountains if I found a carpool w/o horses, but if it was somethiung with any
hamds on elements I'd likely only bring a horse if it was in  Brown's Valley or
closer.  So once you provide a tentative location (or range of locations) and
dates,
> >  I'd be happy to let you know if I can commit to attending.
> >  
> > Thanks for looking into this..
> > -Hamish
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >  From: Patti L. <la3luna@>
> > To: Martha Bancroft <marti@>; "WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com"
<WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:20 PM
> > Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: balsa jousting???
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > Hi Macha,
> >
> > Adding in some personal experiences here: I find the number of 10-12 Ground
Crew per jouster to be exceptional. This is probably a full compliment for a
Tournament scenario, but maybe quite a bit more than we would need for a
practice situation.
> >
> > If I am in the armor I like to have 3 people there to assist me. I prefer to
bring my own crew as some people are better at certain jobs than others. As
Siobhan decides the details on her Clinic she can make all these decisions for
the day. 
> >
> > YIS,
> >
> > Juliana
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >  From: Martha Bancroft <marti@>
> > To: Dianne Karp <diannekarp@>
> > Cc: juliana_of_avon <la3luna@>; West Kingdom EQ List
<westkingdomeq@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:38 AM
> > Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: balsa jousting???
> >
> > Hi Siobhan,
> > I'd like to advertise this to interested folks in An Tir - but will need
specifics (dates/locations/costs/loaner or rental horses vs haul your own,
loaner or rental gear).
> >
> > Current economic situations are having everyone prioritize - but a chance to
learn as we in An Tir try to establish balsa jousting as a experiment may
encourage some attendance.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Macha 
> > (KEO, An Tir)
> > PS My deputy for jousting, HL Guillaume, tells me that we need 10-12 ground
crew for every balsa jouster. Observing at Gulf Wars, I suspect he is correct.
Will this workshop also help encourage those folks? It appears to be so from
your email below, but to have them also drive 12-30 hours from An Tir I would
hope to have a more specific curriculum to use to entice them once your plans
firm up.
> >
> > On Aug 27, 2012, at 7:28 PM, Dianne Karp wrote:
> >  
> > >Introducing folks to what balsa jousting is all about, what training they
and their horse needs, how it is similar/different from foam lance, what is in
it for them if they do not actively compete, a chance to see it occur and see
the armor and weapons................ Siobhan
> > >On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 8:21 AM, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@> wrote:
> > >
> > >> 
> > >>Hi,  As always it will depend on the logistics and the details. :)  What
do you have in mind?  Juliana  --- In mailto:WestKingdomEQ%40yahoogroups.com,
Dianne Karp <diannekarp@> wrote: > > Who, if anyone, is interested in learning
about balsa jousting?  This would > include folks who would like to know more
about but might not want to > actually do it! >  > I am beginning to organize a
'introduction clinic' with someone who has > done it for quite some time. >  >
Siobhan >  >  >  > --  > Siobhan ni Seaghdha, OP > Dianne Karp >     -- Siobhan
ni Seaghdha, OPDianne Karp
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Henrick,

EXACTLY! And thank you!

For obvious reasons, I like to tilt the quintain with the lance I use for
jousting. That evening at Jean's, as we played with the shorter lances, the
angle to the quintain became steeper and I quickly remembered why I use the
longer lance.

YIS,

Juliana

--- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "henrikofhavn" <henriksd5@...> wrote:
>
> I don't want to step on anyone's toes and mean no disrespect, and sincerely
appologise if my comments do cause anyone discomfort.
>
> However at times I find it difficult to understand some people's comments on
this list, due to their content of acronisms or "shortcut comments" that others
more familiar with, or more schooled in the subject matter, understand, than I
often do.
>
> With that disclaimer in mind, I would like to expand on Juliana's words below.
>
> Tilting or jousting, involves two opponants charging at each other with lances
with the intent to strike the opposing rider's target (usually ecranch shield,
in later period jousting forms, such as we are refering to here).
>
> Historically, tilting was first done head on, with the lances being aimed
straight forward. Unfortunately for those involved, this frequently resulted in
the horses and riders running head long into each other, with many injuries and
some fatalities being a common  result, even if both rider's lances missed
hitting their targets.
>
> To prevent such accidental collision injuries, a barrier was used, so the
horses were seperated by it and could only run past each other , while being on
opposite sides of the it. However, with the riders no longer being straight in
front of each other, they had to change where they aimed their lances, and turn
them to the side so they pointed over the top of the barrier at the opposing
rider's target.
>
> Now the mathematics of joisting dictate that the longer a jouster's lance is,
the closer to straight forward it can be aimed and still have the tip hit the
opponant's target, in a joust. This also means that more force is transfered to
that impact, and this means the likelyhood of the tip breaking is greater too.
>
> However it is also obvious that the longer a lance is, the heavier it also
becomes , and the more difficult it is to hold, raise and lower and aim at the
target. So to compromise, and allow a lance to be both managable and still be
able to reach it's target and hit with sufficient force to break thew tip, a
typical jousting lance should be in the 11 feet long to 14 feet long range of
lengths, with the longer lengths being more appropriate for stronger historical
warriors and 11 to 12 feet being better suited for gamimg jousters like us.
>
> Lances much shorter than 11 feet, would need to be held more sideways, just in
order to even reach a rider's target, as it passes on the far side of a barrier,
and so is hardly suitable for bals tipped jousting.
>
> Unfortunately , when Equestrian rules within the SCA were first drafted by
Countess Iseult, she quantified lance lengths used in lance work games at 9 feet
( still in IKEqC, I believe) and ended up setting a standard that was too easily
acepted, since shorter lances are lighter and easier to manipulate. For a while
lances over 9 feet long were not allowed by some Marshals untill I reminded
Misteress Yasmina of the difficulty and she added longer lenghts specifically
being permitted, in her rewriting of the Society Equestrian Manual which is now
in force.
>
> Now when Juliana states that the lances are too long to work in Jean's covered
arena in Browns Valley, she is refering to the clearance distance above a rider
( which I believe is around 10 feet above an average horse's back - that is the
clear space between the saddle and the lowest cross beams of the wooden rafters,
from which the roof structer of the covered arena is constructed, overhead)
being less than the length needed for free use of an 11 to 12 foot long lance
while riding an average horse, say about 15 hends tall.
>
> The form of holding a jousting lance that I believe Juliana was teaching, is a
form that was used historically, and is commonly used outside the SCA, by modern
competative jousters. It is a form that not only seems to lend itself to safer
engagements today, but historically seems to be depicted in many period
illustrations of jousters in the later middle ages.
>
> To use such form requires an overhead clearance of closer to 14 feet or
possibly a bit more, above the saddle's height off the ground, and for a tall
draft  horse, it can possibly total as much as 20 or 21 feet from ground to the
bottom of an overhead structure.
>
>
> I hope this helps clarify, for those who may not be quite sure of what was
being refered to.
>
> Henrik
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "juliana_of_avon" <la3luna@> wrote:
> >
> > Hamish,
> >
> > Regarding Browns Valley. We found out that our 11.5'(+) jousting lances
won't clear the joists at Jean's arena. I was on a 15.1hh horse. Otherwise, the
site is splendid for everything else.
> >
> > YIS,
> >
> > Juliana
> >
> > --- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, David Walters <wyllow@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Siobhan,
> > >  
> > > This sounds like a clinic I'd love to attend.  I'd be willing to cross
the mountains if I found a carpool w/o horses, but if it was somethiung with any
hamds on elements I'd likely only bring a horse if it was in  Brown's Valley or
closer.  So once you provide a tentative location (or range of locations) and
dates,
> > >  I'd be happy to let you know if I can commit to attending.
> > >  
> > > Thanks for looking into this..
> > > -Hamish
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >  From: Patti L. <la3luna@>
> > > To: Martha Bancroft <marti@>; "WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com"
<WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 2:20 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: balsa jousting???
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > Hi Macha,
> > >
> > > Adding in some personal experiences here: I find the number of 10-12
Ground Crew per jouster to be exceptional. This is probably a full compliment
for a Tournament scenario, but maybe quite a bit more than we would need for a
practice situation.
> > >
> > > If I am in the armor I like to have 3 people there to assist me. I prefer
to bring my own crew as some people are better at certain jobs than others. As
Siobhan decides the details on her Clinic she can make all these decisions for
the day. 
> > >
> > > YIS,
> > >
> > > Juliana
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >  From: Martha Bancroft <marti@>
> > > To: Dianne Karp <diannekarp@>
> > > Cc: juliana_of_avon <la3luna@>; West Kingdom EQ List
<westkingdomeq@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 6:38 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [WestKingdomEQ] Re: balsa jousting???
> > >
> > > Hi Siobhan,
> > > I'd like to advertise this to interested folks in An Tir - but will need
specifics (dates/locations/costs/loaner or rental horses vs haul your own,
loaner or rental gear).
> > >
> > > Current economic situations are having everyone prioritize - but a chance
to learn as we in An Tir try to establish balsa jousting as a experiment may
encourage some attendance.
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > Macha 
> > > (KEO, An Tir)
> > > PS My deputy for jousting, HL Guillaume, tells me that we need 10-12
ground crew for every balsa jouster. Observing at Gulf Wars, I suspect he is
correct. Will this workshop also help encourage those folks? It appears to be so
from your email below, but to have them also drive 12-30 hours from An Tir I
would hope to have a more specific curriculum to use to entice them once your
plans firm up.
> > >
> > > On Aug 27, 2012, at 7:28 PM, Dianne Karp wrote:
> > >  
> > > >Introducing folks to what balsa jousting is all about, what training they
and their horse needs, how it is similar/different from foam lance, what is in
it for them if they do not actively compete, a chance to see it occur and see
the armor and weapons................ Siobhan
> > > >On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 8:21 AM, juliana_of_avon <la3luna@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> 
> > > >>Hi,  As always it will depend on the logistics and the details. :)  What
do you have in mind?  Juliana  --- In mailto:WestKingdomEQ%40yahoogroups.com,
Dianne Karp <diannekarp@> wrote: > > Who, if anyone, is interested in learning
about balsa jousting?  This would > include folks who would like to know more
about but might not want to > actually do it! >  > I am beginning to organize a
'introduction clinic' with someone who has > done it for quite some time. >  >
Siobhan >  >  >  > --  > Siobhan ni Seaghdha, OP > Dianne Karp >     -- Siobhan
ni Seaghdha, OPDianne Karp
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Congrats!

Juliana

--- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, Nancy Reimers <nancyreimers@...> wrote:
>
> Congratulations!
>
> Else
>
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Dianne Karp <diannekarp@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > As many of you know, I and Connor are members for the Red Rock Hounds, an
> > English style fox (coyote) hunting club.
> >
> > I set a goal of becoming a 'whipper-in' some 6 years ago.  This is a job
> > that takes 5 or more years of work to even _begin_ to have a couple of clue
> > cards and therefore be useful to the Huntmaster.
> >
> > Every year, a roster of all the hunts in the USA comes out.  _THIS_ year,
> > I am listed as a whipper-in (hon) on our Hunt's listing.
> >
> > I am awed at the honor.  And now --- to work even harder so that someday I
> > might be allowed to wear a scarlet coat while doing that job!
> >
> > Siobhan
> >
> >
> > --
> > Siobhan ni Seaghdha, OP
> > Dianne Karp
> >
> >
> >
>

Greetings all,

I've just added the Equestrian Championship judging sheets to the files section
under EQjudgingsheets2. Feel free to look over them, as if you are competing,
this is what we're looking for.
  Can't wait to see what you've come up with!

YiS,

Aine ingen Fhinn
West Kingdom Equestrian Champion

My Lady Aine,

Thank you for posting the scoring sheets. I don't recall having seen similar
sheets posted previously, before other competitions. I think they are very
useful for any competitor and if each person can get a scorred sheet after their
performance, that would be great as well.

See you Saturday.

Henrik


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



--- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, "aine1325" <aine@...> wrote:
>
> Greetings all,
>
> I've just added the Equestrian Championship judging sheets to the files
section under EQjudgingsheets2. Feel free to look over them, as if you are
competing, this is what we're looking for.
>  Can't wait to see what you've come up with!
>
> YiS,
>
> Aine ingen Fhinn
> West Kingdom Equestrian Champion
>

Just a quick reminder that this event is coming up soon. Hope to see some of you
come up and play.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/sharon-robb-chism/arc-tourney-equestrian-informat\
ion/10150747340948573

If the Facebook link does not work, feel free to email me, and I will give you
all the information. Or you can go to the An Tir Kingdom calendar and find event
information there. Event dates are Oct. 5-7.

With respect,

HL Rathyen de Bures of Acton
Myrtleholt EQ Officer

Competition begins at 11am, Saturday!
Also, I still need ground crew. Please let me know if you can help out!

YIS,
Aine

(slightly frazzled Kingdom Equestrian Champion)

Greetings all

I had a request by a last minute entrant, to re-post the Championship format.
For those of you who have already seen this, maybe review this to make sure you
haven't forgotten anything?

See you all tomorrow, I hope!

Aine
West Kingdom EQ Champion

1: Introductions and pagentry
Instead of having introductions as part of the "pattern" round, introductions
will be made before riding begins in a Pas D'Arms style. Competitors will
introduce themselves and their horses. Pageantry will also be judged at this
time.

2: Timed elements competition

This is your chance to show off where you shine. Instead of having riders choose
set patterns this will be more a free style with required elements. This allows
a rider to show off what they do best and also shows that they can build off a
given idea and make it their own.
Time limit is 2 minutes. You do not need to use all of this if you do not wish,
but you will be cut off if you go over.

All entrants are required to add a gait change and a back-up to their chosen
pattern set. Entrants will pick one set of the following elements to base their
riding on. (pictures to come within the next week)

Set A:
1. Figure 8
2. Side pass in both directions

Set B:
1. Serpentine (3 direction change minimum)
2. circle

Set C:
1.Hour glass
2. turn on hindquarters

Pattern elements must be ridden in the order given. For example, if set A is
chosen, the figure 8 must be ridden before the sidepass is attempted. These
elements do not have to be back-to-back, only in the order given. Gait changes
and back-ups may be incuded at any time. Feel free to add things to this to
make it something that shows off you and your horse to your best abilities.

3: Challenge Course:

This challenge course will resemble the previous challenge courses. So be
prepaired for bridges, blind passes, gates, loud scary moving objects, jumps,
zig zags, carry challenges, quintain, pig sticking, at-speed shield sticking,
heads, etc. Standard challenge course rules apply: stations may be attempted
twice, but cannot be attempted back-to-back.

Finals:
The top 4 competitors will advance to final. Finals will be a head-to-head run
at rings and then javelin for speed and time. The top rider from this will be
chosen as this years champion.

Judging sheets can be found in the "files" section.

We had a total of seven riders yesterday and it was a pleasure to see what
everyone came up with for their patterns. I was quite surprised at the elements
they decided to add and more than one made me smile in surprise. I hope they had
as much fun with them as I did. Thank you to all who came and rode.

  In the end, the four finalists were Katherine Gotehird, Siobhan ni Seaghdh,
Malyn Edwardis, and Gwendywn the Silent. I was very pleased with all four, and
would have been happy handing the Championship to any of the four. Gwen,
however, came out on top, and I have no doubt she'll make a fine Champion.

  I'd like to give great thanks to those who helped with this, from coming out to
ground crew (you're awesome), to those who helped me keep my sanity (you are all
amazing). Thanks also to Their Majesties who came out to witness and judge.
  And above all, thanks to Helga and Mari for everything. I couldn't have done
this without all of you, and you have my emense gratitude!

Congratulations to Gwen, future Kingdom Equestrian Champion!

And Many, Many thanks to everyone who made this work.

Aine ingen Fhinn
West Kingdom Equestrian Champion

Does anyone have a good source for foam tips?

-Arabella

http://www-classic.uni-graz.at/ubwww/sosa/druckschriften/triumphzug/

Greetings all,

I can't remember if I had shared this link here before, but a couple of folks were asking me last weekend about the event Hamish has planned for April.

The link above is to the wood cuts that will serve as inspiration. *Please note - the coloring was added in the 18th century*  I know there are several uncolored hard copies floating around the Kingdom and you can sometimes find used copies on Amazon for fairly cheap.

Else

Anyone got a couple of spare camels?

--- In WestKingdomEQ@yahoogroups.com, Nancy Reimers <nancyreimers@...> wrote:
>
> http://www-classic.uni-graz.at/ubwww/sosa/druckschriften/triumphzug/
>
> Greetings all,
>
> I can't remember if I had shared this link here before, but a couple of
> folks were asking me last weekend about the event Hamish has planned for
> April.
>
> The link above is to the wood cuts that will serve as inspiration. *Please
> note - the coloring was added in the 18th century*  I know there are
> several uncolored hard copies floating around the Kingdom and you can
> sometimes find used copies on Amazon for fairly cheap.
>
> Else
>