Dear Mark,
Based on my readings, the following is what I believe was the sequence
leading to the capture of the guns by the American's and is an edited
version of what I'm putting in my book.



...On the open ground to the south of the hill, General Ripley brought the
Second Brigade to the foot of the slope, with the Twenty-first Regiment
(Colonel Miller) on the left and the Twenty-third (Colonel McFarland) on the
right of the Chippawa - Queenston Road.  He then ordered his two regimental
commanders to attack the battery; with Miller's regiment moving directly up
the slope while McFarland's column would advance, under Ripley's personal
supervision, before wheeling into line and assaulting the position from the
flank along Lundy's Lane.

At the same time, General Brown made a personal reconaissance of the
American left flank and discovered that a strong body of British troops lay
to the west of the British guns (Captain Brereton's 1st (Royal Scots)
Regiment, two companies of Incorporated Militia (Captain Fraser, Captain
MacDonell) and the Light company of the 41st  Regiment (Captain Glew)).

  Concerned that this force could advance and outflank the American assault
on the guns, Brown advanced the companies of the First Regiment (Lieutenant
Colonel Nicholas) to complete the left of the American assault line and
issued orders for it to make a showing against the enemy to their front and
deter the British from moving to the protection of the guns as Ripley's
regiments attacked.  Returning to the American centre, Brown then ordered
the Twenty-first to storm the guns, before continuing east until he reached
the Chippawa- Queenston Road, looking for the Twenty-third Regiment to order
it forward as well .

Advancing up the slope under the cover of the darkness, the Twenty-first
Regiment heard firing from both the right and left.  The noise from the
right was the Twenty-third regiment, who ran into a wall of fire from the
British 'corner' consisting of the left flank of the 89th Regiment and three
companies of Incorporated Militia.  Together these units quickly routed the
Twenty-third, killing Major McFarland and most of the leading company in
that column.  The firing from the left was where the First Regiment had
inexplicably tried to assault the British line; receiving in return the full
effect of the fire from the augmented battery and the troops stationed to
the west of the guns.  Within moments Nicholas realised that any further
advance would be suicidal and led his men back down the slope in disorder.

These movements, while achieving little beyond mounting the American
casualty roll, did distract the British gunners on the hilltop, as well as
the troops on either side, thus allowing Miller's troops to creep up through
the undefended centre to within point-blank range of the guns. Here they
formed behind the cover of a split-rail fence and delivered a devastating
volley into the crowd of artillerymen, fully occupied with attending to
their guns.  Most of the men in the battery were either killed or wounded by
this fire, while the teams of horses that had just brought up the additional
guns (from Hercules Scott's column) were either similarly killed or
stampeded away to the west, where they careened through the lines of the
British right flank, disordering that formation and preventing it from
mounting a counter attack.  Following up their lethal fire, the Twenty-first
charged forward with the bayonet, finishing off any survivors who resisted
and capturing the guns.

Directly behind and slightly below the artillery position on the crest, the
detachment of the 89th Regiment was caught off guard by the sudden volley
and charge of the Americans. Fortunately, General Drummond was nearby and
ordered an immediate counter attack to regain the vital guns.  Marching
forward, the 89th opened fire into the milling mass of dark shapes vaguely
discernible amongst the guns.  Attempting to continue with the bayonet, they
were met in return with fire from the reforming Americans.  ...
Unable to dislodge the Americans, the 89th were eventually forced to
retreat, but soon returned with detachments from the Incorporated Militia,
the Royal Scots and 41st Regiments. Twice more, the two lines clashed and
the carnage continued, including the wounding of General Drummond, who was
hit in the neck by a musketball, narrowly missing the commanders main
artery; but the Twenty-first held its advantage of the higher ground,
eventually forcing the British to withdraw to the foot of the hill, leaving
their entire artillery force in American hands...

As to the details of the supposed spiking of the guns

...On top of the hill, the desperate fight to hold onto the guns had cost
Miller's command dearly and he desperately needed reinforcements.  Fearing
that a British counterattack would regain the guns, Miller ordered the
removal of the pieces towards the American side of the hill... Upon arriving
on the hilltop, Ripley took overall command and decided the captured
artillery could be better served as part of the new line of defence.  He
therefore countermanded the removal order, while sending for Hindman to
bring forward the American artillery batteries.

This was done in rapid order with Towson placing his guns in Lundy's Lane,
slightly to the right of the Twenty-third Regiment, while Ritche's battery
was located forward of the First Infantry Regiment.  Biddle's battery
remained at the foot of the hill, on the crossroads, to cover the Queenston
Road.  With these pieces in place, further inspection of the captured
British artillery, revealed that the essential hand tools required to load
and fire the guns were either broken from the initial fight, or were
entirely missing.  As a result, the captured guns were deemed unworkable and
Ripley ordered Captain McDonald (Nineteenth Regiment) to locate General
Brown and get permission to remove the British artillery to the security of
the American camp. Descending the hillside, McDonald almost immediately came
upon General Brown and his staff moving up the slope with Jesup's corps.

Dismissing the Lieutenant's request on the grounds that
" .there were matters of more importance to attend to at that moment." Brown
rode to the crest of the hill and the guns were left where they were...

Finally,


...Following the third assault, Ripley was particularly concerned that
another attack would result in the retaking of the guns by the British.  To
prevent this happening, he prevailed on Porter to detach a force of men to
drag off the captured guns.  Without horses or proper drag ropes, the
already exhausted militiamen started in their assigned duty, manhandling the
massive pieces across the rough ground and down the incline to the south
side of the hill.  In this way the battery was further scattered across the
hillside and possibly only one piece, a brass 6 pounder, actually reached
the bottom of the slope before the men rebelled

  ".being tired out and half dead for want of water, the most of our faces
scorched with powder, we refused to do any more."

...Hindman returned to the positions of his batteries to oversee their
removal to the camp at Chippawa.  Biddle's battery was relatively untouched
and was soon limbered up and on the move; picking up on the way the British
6 pounder left by Porter's militia.  On the hilltop, however, the situation
was significantly different.  All of the American and British battery horses
and gun crews were either dead or missing and the guns stood undefended in
Lundy's Lane, well in front of the retired American line. In response,
Hindman collected whatever artillerymen or soldiers he could muster and
proceeded to wheel off the majority of Towson's and Ritchie's guns by hand.
But without enough men to complete the job in a single effort, Hindman was
forced to leave behind one of his own 6 pounder guns, a howitzer, and two
ammunition wagons; as well as the remaining British artillery pieces, for
what was expected to be a second trip. ..

Informed that Hindman had already withdrawn his guns from in front of the
American position, Ripley made the decision to quietly withdraw from the
hilltop, much to the disgust of General Porter.

Without bothering to establish a rearguard, the surviving troops formed
composite units and then marched from the field, while stragglers and
smaller detachments were used to bring away as many of the wounded as could
be found. However, without Hindman or his artillerists, no effort was made
by the infantry to see that Ripley's earlier order to remove the British
guns had been completed.

Hindman, on the other hand, did attempt to return for the remaining guns by
sending forward a detachment of artillerymen and wagon drivers to prepare at
least one of the British 24 pounder pieces for transportation; while he
attempted to locate spare horses and bring them up to haul off the prizes.
Upon his return, he found that the guns and at least part of his detachment
had been overrun and re-captured by the British; forcing him to retreat as
quietly as possible towards the American camp.  During this journey, Hindman
met Towson, returning with horses on a similar errand.  Apprising Towson
that the hill and the guns were once again in the hands of the British, the
two officers gave up their attempt and returned to the American camp, where
they were immediately engaged in working on preparing defences for an
anticipated British attack on that position before dawn...


Sorry for the inordinate length of this e-mail but that's how I saw it
happening.

Regards, And Happy New Year,
Richard Feltoe

Terry I agree with many of your points.  I think safety and knowing what it is
like to carry a musket and how damned heavy those things get is an important
thing for
officers to remember.  However, I don't think that an officer should be excluded
from the field because he wants to partray himself (herself.  DUCK
INCOMMING!!)as a
dandy.  I think that if an officer knows the drill than strut all you want!  It
would be good to see the officers as upperclasses instead of the serjeant with a
really
expensive uniform that we often see.

Terry Lubka wrote:

> For those "officers" who prance on the field with know rank experience
> please stay off the field. Better yet if you want to be a peacock then strut
> your stuff behind the lines, that's the audience lines....
>
> Now let the fireworks begin!
>
> Terry. (taking cover, naw to hell with it. Standing front and center)

For the Wenworth Re-enactment Society we don't have a minimum age for
recruiting.  However we do have some guidlines.  If the prospective member is
under 16 his/her
parents must also join the group.  The new member is also not allowed to carry a
musket until at least 16.

tracyforsyth@... wrote:

> So now in 2001 how old is the minimum age you would recruit a re
> enactor?
>
>  Recruiting some one does it *mean* they get to carry a musket in the
> next re enactment that comes after they join? Learning the
> proceedures is important.Will these new young recruits learn
> the "ropes"then be given a musket after training.
>
>  I saw a few younger teens asking the IMUC unit questions about
> recruitment at Fort Erie during the seige.
> There does seem to be an interest perhaps it is transporation as well
> as the expense that is holding some younger recruits back.
>
> If the parent doesn't hold an interest in re enacting are they going
> to let junior take the family car away for the weekend?
>
>   This is an expensive hobby however it is something that can be
> enjoyed by a teen until later on in life and then by his family also.
> I would much rather have my kid(who is too young right now)invest in
> this hobby rather then other hobby's that don't carry on the interest
> past early 20's and the money is then spent and the supplies sit idol.
>
>
>
>  Happy new year      Tracy Forsyth
>
>
>
> --- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, "JESSE PUDWELL" <SGTPUDGLI@h...> wrote:
> > J-P,
> >
> > It's all very...historical. Those of us who have survived are
> stronger for
> > it, but not necessarily "better" and certainly not "bigger". 2001
> is the
> > year to re-build and take on the youth again but those of us who
> have the
> > money, unit-wise or individually, must be prepared to help them
> when they
> > come into the hobby.
> >
> > >
>
>
> The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...

Dear List,
Richard, Great account of the taking of the guns. You are correct, despite
General Brown's "official" accounts, the 21st did not take the guns by
themselves.    The 1st Infantry, 150 men in only two companies received orders
to attack the British line. General Brown later wrote that he only intended for
a demonstration from the 1st U.S. Infantry, however, court martial charges were
brought against Lt. Col. Robert Carter Nicholas for his order to "about face"
when he realized the folly of his 150 men in a frontal attack. Nicholas of
course was acquited of the charge.
The 1st Infantry had arrived from Fort Scholosser on the banks of the Niagara as
the opening shots of the battle was heard.  Only two of the three company
battalion (220 men) of the 1st had made it across the River. Captain Thomas
Hamilton's company was still on the American side of the shore. Nicholas,
without any orders "ran" his regiment to the American camp. When they arrived,
no one was there to give him orders, so again without any orders, he marched
North to the sound of the guns.
Lt. Lewis Bissell was one of the first of the regiment to be wounded, receiving
a wound in the leg and saved another wound by his watch stopping a ball.   The
1st U.S. was the first to move up the hill to support Miller and the 21st.  They
first moved to his right, but Ripley moved them to the left of the 21st.
The 1st U.S. Infantry averaged 70 rounds per man during the battle, firing "buck
and ball". During the second British counter attack, one of the companies
"refused their flank" when Porters line fell back.     On the third British
counter attack, the 1st U.S. charged the 89th at the point of their bayonets and
chased them back down the hill.  The regiment also took several prisoners from
the 89th as well, officers and enlisted men.
As a point of interest, the regiment average age was 32 years old, and the
average height was 5 feet 9 and half inches.  The regiment was wearing both the
1812 and 1813 coats with the new leather "tombstone" shakos but without plates,
cords and plumes.
Sorry to go on so long.   Its great to finally see the American 1st Regiment
finally get noticed after General Brown's reports had so thoroughly bashed the
regiment's performance at Lundy's Lane.
David Bennett, Symmes company 1st U. States Infantry.

In a message dated 12/31/00 5:01:42 PM, chimera1@... writes:

<< We were taught voice of command/projection under strenuous training
circumstances, with punishment if you couldn't be heard.

Perhaps the people who will be running the officer/NCO courses could
include training in enunciating from the diaphragm rather than the
throat, so that a commander's voice is not lost to a hoarse gargle
half way through a battle. >>

Amen to that!

B
93rd SHRoFLHU
THE Thin Red Line
www.93rdhighlanders.com

Hi everyone,

For the past year I have enjoyed the benefit of the breadth of knowledge
offered by the members of this list.  I have also enjoyed the humor that
often accompanies the info.  Thank you for your efforts.

I want to wish each of you the very best in the year 2001 as we start a
new millennium.  Have a safe and prosperous new year!

Regards,

Bob
U.S. Engineers/Garrison Surgeon, Ft. Osage.

--- David  Bennett <ebclemson@...> wrote:
> Dear List,

>
>          Sorry to go on so long.   Its great to
> finally see the American 1st Regiment finally get
> noticed after General Brown's reports had so
> thoroughly bashed the regiment's performance at
> Lundy's Lane.
>
>               David Bennett, Symmes company 1st U.
> States Infantry.
>
>

I second all of the above - but as far as slanted
report writing on Lundy's Lane, save some for
Drummond, who insinuates that the guns were never
taken in the first place, that they successfully beat
off at least three attacks on the hill, and that there
were 5000 Americans on the field, outnumbering him
greatly!
If he were alive today, he could make good money
writing resumes, or reporting the news for CNN...



Fitz
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/

An individual unit can decide itself if it wants to have an officer
from within its ranks or an outsider.  If the officer wishes to
portray himself as a dandy  -  fine.

But an individual unaffiliated "officer" who shows up at an event
even with a proper uniform and officer-like attitude has no role.  In
our area (and I suppose we have the largest 1812 events in North
America) we have seen them.  They kind of wander aimlessly around the
battlefield behind the lines.  Since they are unaffiliated they may
also be rather lonely in camp.  We have respected, efficient and
knowledgeable officers as field and general commanders, all who have
come up through their units.  There is no need for more officers.

Within the 1812 movement, there seems to be a trend to diverse micro
units.  The IMUC attended an "event" at Gananoque a few years ago
(and we enjoyed ourselves).  There was a three person unit doing the
King's 8th.  Their uniforms were OK.  The colour sjt was the wife  -
she came up to my shoulder and carried a dinky union jack.  Her
husband was the officer.  Their uncle was the private.  They were
very nice people, but there are no larger formed units in their area
which they could have joined, or which could have provided advice.

Would you want that officer, even after a 2 day course, commanding
you in a field grade at an event?

A training course may upgrade the portrayal skills of existing or
potential officers within units, but I submit it will fail in
producing acceptable field grade officers.

Doug


--- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, Kevin Windsor <kevin.windsor@s...>
wrote:
However, I don't think that an officer should be excluded from the
field because he wants to partray himself ----- as a
> dandy.  I think that if an officer knows the drill than strut all
you want!  It would be good to see the officers as upperclasses
instead of the serjeant with a really
> expensive uniform that we often see.
>
> Terry Lubka wrote:
>
> > For those "officers" who prance on the field with know rank
experience
> > please stay off the field. Better yet if you want to be a peacock
then strut
> > your stuff behind the lines, that's the audience lines....
> >
> > Now let the fireworks begin!
> >
> > Terry. (taking cover, naw to hell with it. Standing front and
center)

In a message dated 1/1/2001 4:40:16 PM Central Standard Time, HQ93rd@...
writes:

<< Perhaps the people who will be running the officer/NCO courses could
  include training in enunciating from the diaphragm rather than the
  throat, so that a commander's voice is not lost to a hoarse gargle
  half way through a battle. >>

  Amen to that!
   >>

Yes, its called singing! A (long) while ago there was a programe about the
preparations for Trooping the Colour for the Queens Birthday Parade. It was
pointed out that the Brigade Major (the chap who sits on his horse shouting
out all the orders) go 6 months of singing lessons to teach him how to
project from the diaphragm and not wreck his throat in a few minuets.
I can also just remember when all the regiments of Foot Guards had slightly
different notes to the orders so that, if more than one unit was on parade at
the same time, it was obvious which officer was giving the orders.

Cheers

Tim

So Tim if you set your orders to Julie Andrews from the sound of music we will
know it's you okay!!
;-)
Leave the guitar at home though wouldn't want to be accused of being a farb! ;-)

BritcomHMP@... wrote:

>
> I can also just remember when all the regiments of Foot Guards had slightly
> different notes to the orders so that, if more than one unit was on parade at
> the same time, it was obvious which officer was giving the orders.
>
> Cheers
>
> Tim
>

--- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, BritcomHMP@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/1/2001 4:40:16 PM Central Standard Time,
HQ93rd@a...
> writes:
>
> << Perhaps the people who will be running the officer/NCO courses
could
>  include training in enunciating from the diaphragm rather than the
>  throat, so that a commander's voice is not lost to a hoarse gargle
>  half way through a battle. >>
>
>  Amen to that!
>   >>
>
> Yes, its called singing! A (long) while ago there was a programe
about the
> preparations for Trooping the Colour for the Queens Birthday
Parade. It was
> pointed out that the Brigade Major (the chap who sits on his horse
shouting
> out all the orders) go 6 months of singing lessons to teach him how
to
> project from the diaphragm and not wreck his throat in a few
minuets.
> I can also just remember when all the regiments of Foot Guards had
slightly
> different notes to the orders so that, if more than one unit was on
parade at
> the same time, it was obvious which officer was giving the orders.
>
> Cheers
>
> Tim

In my early days as commanding sjt of the Imuc I was apparently known
as the "singing serjeant".  I suppose both for my elevated voice of
command and the fact that my commands were usually attenuated in
modern fashion  -  and that my singing voice is high.     Doug

In a message dated 12/31/00 11:41:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
tlubka@... writes:

<< Now let the fireworks begin!

  Terry. (taking cover, naw to hell with it. Standing front and center)
   >>

Terry,

Suicide would've been cheaper and a whole lot easier!

JG/RE

In a message dated 1/1/01 3:00:59 PM, dancingbobd@... writes:

<<  I have also enjoyed the humor that
often accompanies the info.  Thank you for your efforts.

Regards,
Bob
U.S. Engineers/Garrison Surgeon, Ft. Osage.
  >>

Has anyone noticed that Bob spelled backwards is boB?

(Mine is not so interesting -- notneB)
B
93rd SHRoFLHU
THE Thin Red Line
www.93rdhighlanders.com

In a message dated 1/1/01 4:56:22 PM, chimera1@... writes:

<< An individual unit can decide itself if it wants to have an officer
from within its ranks or an outsider.  If the officer wishes to
portray himself as a dandy  -  fine. >>

As in "fine and dandy"....?

B
93rd SHRoFLHU
THE Thin Red Line
www.93rdhighlanders.com

> From: HQ93rd@...
>
> Has anyone noticed that Bob spelled backwards is boB?
>
> (Mine is not so interesting -- notneB)
> B
> 93rd SHRoFLHU
> THE Thin Red Line
> www.93rdhighlanders.com

Dear notneB,

That's a Palindrome (emordnilaP) to you.  And no, the word has nothing to do
with any ex Monty Python guys.

Andrew Bateman, 1/41st

In a message dated 1/2/2001 9:23:55 AM Central Standard Time,
abateman@... writes:

<< That's a Palindrome (emordnilaP) to you.  And no, the word has nothing to
do
  with any ex Monty Python guys.
   >>

"No its not! a palindrome of Bolton would be notloB. It don't work!"

John Cleese, The Parrot Sketch

In a message dated 1/1/2001 10:53:04 PM Central Standard Time,
kevin.windsor@... writes:

<< So Tim if you set your orders to Julie Andrews from the sound of music we
will know it's you okay!!
  ;-)
  Leave the guitar at home though wouldn't want to be accused of being a farb!
;-)
   >>

He storms a trench, gives his leg a wrench,
His uniform has a rent,
He ambles when he should quick march,
He cannot pitch a tent,
And when it comes to drinking then his cash has all been spent.
I even heard him singing after lights out!

High on a hill is a lonely Staff Officer
Lay hodalady yodelady ho!

Sorry, pardon! Did someone say something? :-)

Folks a Palindrome is a word, or phrase that, when reversed, says exactly the
same thing.
'Bob' is one.
So is 'Was it Eliot's toilet I saw?'
Simply putting a word backwards ain't a palindrome.  Stephen Fry came up with
the longest one I have ever seen, but I need to look it up.
Anyway,
Happy New Year/Millennium to all!!

May we, in the coming season, have much of what Othello described as:
...the plumed troops, and big wars,
...the neighing steed and the shrill trump,
the spirit-stirring drum, th'ear-piercing fife,
the royal banner and all quality
pride, pomp and circumstance of glorious war!

Or something like that!
Ray Hobbs
1/41st Foot

BritcomHMP@... wrote:

> In a message dated 1/2/2001 9:23:55 AM Central Standard Time,
> abateman@... writes:
>
> << That's a Palindrome (emordnilaP) to you.  And no, the word has nothing to
> do
>  with any ex Monty Python guys.
>   >>
>
> "No its not! a palindrome of Bolton would be notloB. It don't work!"
>
> John Cleese, The Parrot Sketch
>
> The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...

Col Sjt Jones wrote:


But an individual unaffiliated "officer" who shows up at an event
even with a proper uniform and officer-like attitude ....  Since
they are unaffiliated they may also be rather lonely in camp.  There
is no need for more officers.



Larry writes:

Kind Sir, may I add to your comment ?

In my opinion,
I have not seen the 'Officer's Camp' impression done correctly, for
some time now ........ some may come close but 'NO Cigar!". That
would be a great impression for some one who wants to be an
Officer to do.

Marquee, equipment, attitude, trappings
... right down to the cook n'batman!
_____________________________________

Col Sjt Jones wrote:

Would you want that officer, even after a 2 day course,
commanding you in a field grade at an event?

Larry writes:

I think within our 1812 Community we have capable Officers and those who want to
be Officers have a treasure trove of information to learn from. Just as we can't
get an education from attending Grade One, we can't expect an Officer to immerge
from a 2 day course, but it is a start and after more training, experience, and
help from our respected officers, a student can graduate a
'Field Grade Officer'
....... in my humble opinion.

_____________________________


Col Sjt Jones wrote:

A training course may upgrade the portrayal skills of existing or
potential officers within units, but I submit it will fail in
producing acceptable field grade officers.

Larry writes:

Education can never be a bad thing!

As our Officers retire, quit, get old n'die we do need a
School of the Officer to train new ones. We recruit musketmen
why not Officers.

Also, I believe every unit has the right to choose and have an Officer
if size and portrayal dictates it. I only ask that once an officer is chosen
that that Officer-in-Training get some 1812 training from the Officers we
trust, obey and respect now. What better way than a 'School of the Officer',
with upgrades at every event from those Officers mentioned above.

In Conclusion, I have seen today's Army Officers try to do 1812 Officers
and not be able to do it ....
(cuz as we know ..... different time period ..... different head space)
but I have seen a fresh recruit, with the correct training make a smashing
Officer!

In my humble opinion ..........

"APPY NEW YEAR!    hic*















































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, Raymond Hobbs <ray.hobbs@s...> wrote:
> Folks a Palindrome is a word, or phrase that, when reversed, says
exactly the same thing.


Right as rain, Ray, and let us not forget one palindrome which is at
least tangentially related to the War of 1812, namely Napoleon's
apocryphal dictum after his surrender in 1814....

"Able was I, ere I saw Elba"....

Roger
3/95th (Rifles)
...............

TODAY (well, yesterday, really...) IN RIFLE BRIGADE HISTORY:
1 Sunday, Jan. 1815: 5 Cos., 3rd Bn, 95th (Rifles), at combat before
New Orleans.

Greetings and Happy New Year from the Royal Marines!

A question for all those who work at or operate the
various parks and/or sites:

What is the minimum amount of insurance required by
re-enactment units to have to be guests at your site?

Thanks.

Ed Seufert
1812 Royal Marines

.....Roger....you have far too much time on your hands don't you....

Craig

In a message dated 1/2/2001 1:46:56 PM Central Standard Time, easeufe@...
writes:

<< A question for all those who work at or operate the
  various parks and/or sites:

  What is the minimum amount of insurance required by
  re-enactment units to have to be guests at your site?
   >>

You know Ed I have always rather thought the question should be "How much
insurance will your site provide for us if we decide to grace your site with
our presence".

Cheers

Tim

--- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, BritcomHMP@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/2/2001 1:46:56 PM Central Standard Time,
easeufe@a...
> writes:
>
> << A question for all those who work at or operate the
>  various parks and/or sites:
>
>  What is the minimum amount of insurance required by
>  re-enactment units to have to be guests at your site?
>   >>
>
> You know Ed I have always rather thought the question should be
"How much
> insurance will your site provide for us if we decide to grace your
site with
> our presence".
>



In my experience, unfortunately, most sites answer, "None", then ask
for our proof-of-insurance.

Roger
3/95th (Rifles)

Further to the hopefully humorous remarks I made at the bottom of
this, I would like to re-emphasize that the voice of command training
to which I referred was for junior officers.  It wasn't intended to
be elegant or to resemble singing  -  simply the ability to be heard
and not to lose one's voice.        Doug



--- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, "Col Sjt Jones" <chimera1@s...> wrote:
> --- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, BritcomHMP@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 1/1/2001 4:40:16 PM Central Standard Time,
> HQ93rd@a...
> > writes:
> >
> > << Perhaps the people who will be running the officer/NCO courses
> could
> >  include training in enunciating from the diaphragm rather than
the
> >  throat, so that a commander's voice is not lost to a hoarse
gargle
> >  half way through a battle. >>
> >
> >  Amen to that!
> >   >>
> >
> > Yes, its called singing! A (long) while ago there was a programe
> about the
> > preparations for Trooping the Colour for the Queens Birthday
> Parade. It was
> > pointed out that the Brigade Major (the chap who sits on his
horse
> shouting
> > out all the orders) go 6 months of singing lessons to teach him
how
> to
> > project from the diaphragm and not wreck his throat in a few
> minuets.
> > I can also just remember when all the regiments of Foot Guards
had
> slightly
> > different notes to the orders so that, if more than one unit was
on
> parade at
> > the same time, it was obvious which officer was giving the orders.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Tim
>
> In my early days as commanding sjt of the Imuc I was apparently
known
> as the "singing serjeant".  I suppose both for my elevated voice of
> command and the fact that my commands were usually attenuated in
> modern fashion  -  and that my singing voice is high.     Doug

Larry  -  for once, I can't find anything in your posting with which
to take issue.  It was well put.  I am not against the Officer
Training Seminar  -  I think it will have value, provided that the
graduates emerge with the type of mind set you describe.  Doug


--- In WarOf1812@egroups.com, "Larry Lozon" <lalozon@n...> wrote:
> Col Sjt Jones wrote:
>
>
> But an individual unaffiliated "officer" who shows up at an event
> even with a proper uniform and officer-like attitude ....  Since
> they are unaffiliated they may also be rather lonely in camp.
There
> is no need for more officers.
>
>
>
> Larry writes:
>
> Kind Sir, may I add to your comment ?
>
> In my opinion,
> I have not seen the 'Officer's Camp' impression done correctly, for
> some time now ........ some may come close but 'NO Cigar!". That
> would be a great impression for some one who wants to be an
> Officer to do.
>
> Marquee, equipment, attitude, trappings
> ... right down to the cook n'batman!
> _____________________________________
>
> Col Sjt Jones wrote:
>
> Would you want that officer, even after a 2 day course,
> commanding you in a field grade at an event?
>
> Larry writes:
>
> I think within our 1812 Community we have capable Officers and
those who want to be Officers have a treasure trove of information to
learn from. Just as we can't get an education from attending Grade
One, we can't expect an Officer to immerge from a 2 day course, but
it is a start and after more training, experience, and help from our
respected officers, a student can graduate a
> 'Field Grade Officer'
> ....... in my humble opinion.
>
> _____________________________
>
>
> Col Sjt Jones wrote:
>
> A training course may upgrade the portrayal skills of existing or
> potential officers within units, but I submit it will fail in
> producing acceptable field grade officers.
>
> Larry writes:
>
> Education can never be a bad thing!
>
> As our Officers retire, quit, get old n'die we do need a
> School of the Officer to train new ones. We recruit musketmen
> why not Officers.
>
> Also, I believe every unit has the right to choose and have an
Officer
> if size and portrayal dictates it. I only ask that once an officer
is chosen
> that that Officer-in-Training get some 1812 training from the
Officers we
> trust, obey and respect now. What better way than a 'School of the
Officer', with upgrades at every event from those Officers mentioned
above.
>
> In Conclusion, I have seen today's Army Officers try to do 1812
Officers
> and not be able to do it ....
> (cuz as we know ..... different time period ..... different head
space)
> but I have seen a fresh recruit, with the correct training make a
smashing Officer!
>
> In my humble opinion ..........
>
> "APPY NEW YEAR!    hic*
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Larry,
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but I had more trouble than I
thought in getting this price list put onto my system. If you think it would
be appropriate for this to go into the list archive, communal file, pasted
into the body of a submission, or other common distribution system, I leave
it with you to pass it on as you see fit.
regards Richard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ross,
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I had a harder time than I
thought in getting the list converted onto my system than I originally
thought.  Anyhow here it is as an attachment in Word 97.
have a Happy New Year
Regards
Richard Feltoe


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kevin
     Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I had a harder time than I
thought in getting the list converted onto my system than I originally
thought.  Anyhow here it is as an attachment in Word 97.In the mean time
have a Happy New Year
Regards
Richard Feltoe
PS  You name it and Karen and I will be there.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear All.
     Having finally sorted out the delays in getting the Past reflection's
Price List onto my computer, I got on with sending out the promised
attachments to those who contacted me directly.  Unfortunately, one or two
individuals did it through this listing and so I do not have your direct
e-mails and this list does not carry attachments.  If you could therefore
contact me directly at feltoe@... I'll get the job done ASAP
Regards, and a Happy New Year
Richard Feltoe.