In a message dated 28/04/2006 20:10:24 Central Standard Time,
mikedeajansen@... writes:

Just  another one of those stupid questions that I should already know
the answer  to.  Can anyone out there give me a complete rank list for
the British  Army during the War of 1812?


In decending order
Field Marshal
General
Lieutenant General
Major General
Brigadier General
Colonel
Major
Captain
Lieutenant
Ensign (Cornet in the cavalry)
Sergeant Major
Colour Sergeant
Sergeant
Corporal
La(u)nce Corporal  (Chosen Man in the rifles)*
Private

Fifers and drummers ranked between privates and Lance Corporals*

*Obviously there has been much discussion about this rank lately, I rather
think it was an apointed rank rather than an official one. Part of the reason
for this is that in my collection I have an 1829 book on pention regulations,
its sample forms (featuring the famous Thomas Atkins) start with attestation
forms for 1802 and follow the fictional Atkins through all his promotions and
in  one sample a promotion from Drummer to Corporal, breaking to Private and
then a  re-promotion to Corporal with no mention of Lance Corporal.

Cheers
Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> the British  Army during the War of 1812
>
>
> In decending order
> Field Marshal
> General
> Lieutenant General
> Major General
> Brigadier General
> Colonel
> Major


Hi Tim or others:

Perhaps you can help me with this question.  Where does Lieutenant
Colonel fit in?  For example, during the war Lt. Colonel Henry
Proctor had command of the 41st Regiment in Canada but Josiah
Champagne was listed as Colonel.  Both appear elsewhere in the army
lists with ranks of General.

It seems that some officers would have an army rank that was senior
to their regimental rank. The rank of Colonel almost seems a
honourary desigination.

Is that a correct interpretation?

Thanks!

Tom Fournier
41st Regiment

Dear Dale

Thank you for your thoughtful message.

Seamen of the RN, including on the North American Station, were given
instruction in small arms by either the ship's Corporal, who served as
Master-at-Arms, or by members of the Royal Marine detachment (or infantry
serving as marines, such as the 41st Foot and the R. Nfld. Regt.) that may
have been carried in the ship. Provincial Marine seamen, the naval force on
the Lakes until May of 1813, had notoriously far less training in weapons of
any kind, including small arms and the exercising of the "great guns".

For Boarding Parties at sea, the usual weapons issued out were the cutlass;
the pike; the pistol; and the boarding axe. These were issued before the
action and recovered after.

For Landing Parties put ashore into a potentially hostile circumstance where
they were expected to either defend themselves or function as an attacking
force, the seamen were generally issued with muskets and cartridge boxes,
and bayonets if carrying muskets (such as the India Pattern or Short Land)
that could receive them. Leatherwork for these was usually black rather than
pipeclayed white as per the RM or the Infantry. "Breadbags" (haversacks)
were also issued out if the stay ashore was to be lengthy.

The cutlass was usually not carried by seamen in Landing Parties, as it was
a close-range shipboard weapon little better than a cumbersome club with a
sharp edge, and no defence against a musket-armed enemy. A few might have
been seen in the hands of petty officers, but not as a sign of rank.

Officers would rely on pistols (Sea Service or Dragoon models with belt
tangs) and swords.

Therefore, I would suggest that if the wish is to portray accurately a naval
Landing Party in a potentially fighting circumstance, the stand of arms
described above would be appropriate for each man. Otherwise I would
continue to suggest no weaponry.

But it is a hobby, after all. Do whatever is fun.

Yours aye

Vic Suthren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Kidd" <ucpm_gunner@...>
To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 10:58 PM
Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Arming Tars (was Divine Service)


> R/Adm. Suthren:
>
> Perhaps I could prevail upon you to further clarify this issue, as I
> am confused by the seemingly illogical logistical and tactical issues
> this policy would engender.
>
> The SOP you have quoted seems entirely appropriate where the
> personnel were quartered aboard ship, and their arms were therefore
> stored there as well. It would also seem to be good procedure when
> the Tars were headed into a city or town, as sailors were notorious
> drunks and brawlers, and would be best kept unarmed in that situation.
>
> However, in a situation where the sailors were part of a landing
> party, encamped or moving overland, would not the members of the
> landing party be issued their cutlasses for the duration? If not,
> what is the prescribed repository for them? It seems unlikely that
> they would be transported in crates or barrels when the load could be
> more evenly distributed. And it would seem even less likely that the
> men would be left unarmed when encamped in or moving on foot through
> territory where contact with the enemy was even remotely likely.
>
> Your views, sir?
>
> YH&OS,
> ~Dale
>
>
>
>
>
> The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...
>
> Unit Contact information for North America:
>    ---------------------------------
> Crown Forces Unit Listing:
> http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
>
> American Forces Unit Listing
> http://usforces1812.tripod.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.0.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.1/326 - Release Date: 27/04/06
>
>

Vic.
        I agree with your analysis of what would have been carried by a Naval
Landing Party operating on shore for length of time.  Aside from the generally
useless nature of a cutlass in an infantry fight, anyone who has tried to
march any distance with a cutlass swinging about from their belt knows what a
pain in the ass it is.  However I think it quite possible that cutlasses may
have
been issued to Naval Gun Crews when operating on shore.  In that circumstance
they would have been of some value if your Gun Position was about to be
overrun.

        Ed B.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Very good point, Ed.

Vic Suthren
----- Original Message -----
From: <Armchairadm@...>
To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 8:29 AM
Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Re: Arming Tars (was Divine Service)


> Vic.
>        I agree with your analysis of what would have been carried by a
Naval
> Landing Party operating on shore for length of time.  Aside from the
generally
> useless nature of a cutlass in an infantry fight, anyone who has tried to
> march any distance with a cutlass swinging about from their belt knows
what a
> pain in the ass it is.  However I think it quite possible that cutlasses
may have
> been issued to Naval Gun Crews when operating on shore.  In that
circumstance
> they would have been of some value if your Gun Position was about to be
> overrun.
>
>        Ed B.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...
>
> Unit Contact information for North America:
>    ---------------------------------
> Crown Forces Unit Listing:
> http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
>
> American Forces Unit Listing
> http://usforces1812.tripod.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.0.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.1/326 - Release Date: 27/04/06
>
>

Tom are you talking about honourary Colonels?  Regimental Colonels are
General officers that have, for the most, retired.  They hang around to give
advice, provide ceremonial functions and the like.  There is also Colonels
in Chief and their names usually begin with HRH, or other types of the
Windsor House.  (or Hanover for us)
During the War of 1812 the Colonel of the 89th Regiment was the Earl of
Lindsay who was a General dated 25 Sept 1803.

Kevin Windsor
89th Reg't



-----Original Message-----

Hi Tim or others:

Perhaps you can help me with this question.  Where does Lieutenant
Colonel fit in?  For example, during the war Lt. Colonel Henry
Proctor had command of the 41st Regiment in Canada but Josiah
Champagne was listed as Colonel.  Both appear elsewhere in the army
lists with ranks of General.

It seems that some officers would have an army rank that was senior
to their regimental rank. The rank of Colonel almost seems a
honourary desigination.

Is that a correct interpretation?

Thanks!

Tom Fournier
41st Regiment

Greetings List,
With regard to arming tars with a cutlass. I have a copy of my great
great grandfathers log. He was in the Royal Navy and one of the first
actions he saw was in the second Ashanti War of the 1870's. He writes
that they were put ashore in Africa with the orders to build a road
through the forest. He writes that the tools they were given to do the
job were cutlasses and shovels. I know this doesn't entirely fit with
the 1812 Forum cutlass thread but does show what a cutlass was good
for other than bashing away at some other poor bastard on an enemy
ship. Sorry I won't be at Longwoods for the Divine Service. I start a
new job at Black Creek Pioneer Village that weekend. So there will be
very little camping out and "playing army" with my friends this season.
Be seeing you,
Bruce Whittaker

The term 'cutlass' was also used to mean a belt-carried bill-hook kind of
tool, and also a cane-cutter's long blade rather than the fighting cutlass.
Which do you think it might have been?

Vic Suthren
----- Original Message -----
From: "J.Bruce Whittaker" <ortheris@...>
To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 9:28 AM
Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Arming Tars


> Greetings List,
> With regard to arming tars with a cutlass. I have a copy of my great
> great grandfathers log. He was in the Royal Navy and one of the first
> actions he saw was in the second Ashanti War of the 1870's. He writes
> that they were put ashore in Africa with the orders to build a road
> through the forest. He writes that the tools they were given to do the
> job were cutlasses and shovels. I know this doesn't entirely fit with
> the 1812 Forum cutlass thread but does show what a cutlass was good
> for other than bashing away at some other poor bastard on an enemy
> ship. Sorry I won't be at Longwoods for the Divine Service. I start a
> new job at Black Creek Pioneer Village that weekend. So there will be
> very little camping out and "playing army" with my friends this season.
> Be seeing you,
> Bruce Whittaker
>
>
>
>
>
> The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...
>
> Unit Contact information for North America:
>    ---------------------------------
> Crown Forces Unit Listing:
> http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
>
> American Forces Unit Listing
> http://usforces1812.tripod.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.0.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.1/326 - Release Date: 27/04/06
>
>

Bruce

Further to your g.father's experiences in the Ashante War, when I taught in
Nigeria many years ago the students were expected to bring three things with
them when arriving at the residential schools: a mosquito net, a bucket and a
"cutlass", also called a "cut-grass".

The latter two items were for labour details - a weekly duty for all students -
and the "cutlass" was generally a piece of sheet steel (think flattened-out
barrel stave) with a bit of plastic sheet wrapped round one end for a handle.

BTW, reading of life in the Ghurka regiments before WWII, the famous "kukri" was
used far more often to clear brush than to decapitate enemies!  I had one for
years and used it for felling and limbing brush.  (No, they do NOT have to draw
blood whenever unsheathed - that's a joke on we round-eyes and a good excuse not
to draw it every 90 seconds for tourists!)

Sorry if this is "off-thread"!

Peter Monahan
============================================================
From: "J.Bruce Whittaker" <ortheris@...>
Date: 2006/04/29 Sat AM 09:28:05 EST
To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Arming Tars

Greetings List,
With regard to arming tars with a cutlass. I have a copy of my great
great grandfathers log. He was in the Royal Navy and one of the first
actions he saw was in the second Ashanti War of the 1870's. He writes
that they were put ashore in Africa with the orders to build a road
through the forest. He writes that the tools they were given to do the
job were cutlasses and shovels. I know this doesn't entirely fit with
the 1812 Forum cutlass thread but does show what a cutlass was good
for other than bashing away at some other poor bastard on an enemy
ship. Sorry I won't be at Longwoods for the Divine Service. I start a
new job at Black Creek Pioneer Village that weekend. So there will be
very little camping out and "playing army" with my friends this season.
Be seeing you,
Bruce Whittaker





The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square
miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square
miles...

Unit Contact information for North America:
    ---------------------------------
Crown Forces Unit Listing:
http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

American Forces Unit Listing
http://usforces1812.tripod.com
Yahoo! Groups Links






============================================================

In a message dated 29/04/2006 05:45:41 Central Standard Time,
tom4141fournier@... writes:

Perhaps  you can help me with this question.  Where does Lieutenant
Colonel  fit in?  For example, during the war Lt. Colonel Henry
Proctor had  command of the 41st Regiment in Canada but Josiah
Champagne was listed as  Colonel.  Both appear elsewhere in the army
lists with ranks of  General.





Sorry Tom, I did that WAY too late last night. Lt. Colonel fits between
Major and Colonel. Mea Maxima Culpa.

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 29/04/2006 08:06:56 Central Standard Time,
kevin.windsor@... writes:

Tom are  you talking about honourary Colonels?  Regimental Colonels are
General  officers that have, for the most, retired.  They hang around to  give
advice, provide ceremonial functions and the like.

Actualy there was another reason for a general to keep his regimental rank
if he was not wealthy. Generals were only paid when employed on service,
Colonels wewre paid all the time. This is why most Colonels were General 
officers
who did not actualy serve with the regiment leaving the day to day  running to
the Lt. Colonel.

There is  also Colonels
in Chief and their names usually begin with HRH, or other  types of the
Windsor House.  (or Hanover for us)


Actualy not all Colonels in Chief are Royals of the ruling house, some are
honoured soldiers (Wellington 33rd Foot, Cardigan 11th Hussars) and some were
foreign royals (Nicholas II Scots Grays)

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Vic and List,
Vic, I am not sure what my g-grandfather meant by cutlass. "The
term 'cutlass' was also used to mean a belt-carried bill-hook kind of
tool..." All he wrote was "cutlass" so I will defer to your knowledge
and experience and figure it was a bill-hook. I will have to dig out
my copy and read it again. I am certain though that he did not take it
to Church on Sunday. ;) Thanks.
Best regards,
Bruce Whittaker

> kevin.windsor@... writes:
>
> Tom are  you talking about honourary Colonels?  Regimental
Colonels are General  officers that have, for the most, retired.
They hang around to  give advice, provide ceremonial functions and
the like.
>
Tim Pickles ..>writes:

> Actualy there was another reason for a general to keep his
regimental rank if he was not wealthy. Generals were only paid when
employed on service, Colonels wewre paid all the time. This is why
most Colonels were General  officers who did not actualy serve with
the regiment leaving the day to day  running to the Lt. Colonel.
>

********************************

Kevin and Tim

That helps.

My curiosity leads me to another question.

I have some digital copies of the Army List.  I just quickly pulled
the March 1811 copy.

It seems to me that there is a variation between an officer's army
rank and their rank within their regiment.  I noticed this
throughout the list for practically every regiment but I will use
the 41st as a example:

Colonel

Josiah Champagne, l.g.

Lt. Colonels

Henry Proctor, c.

Majors

Jasper Grant, l.c.

Captains

H. McKenzie, m.
R.O. Friend, m

The Army List shows each regiment with a listing of its officers but
it also has at the front of the volume, lists by seniority within
ranks.

In these, Champagne is with the Lt. Generals, Proctor is with the
Colonels, etc.

So I guess my question is, why the variation between the army ranks
and the regimental ranks?

Thanks so much for the help!

Tom Fournier
41st Regiment

In a message dated 29/04/2006 13:23:36 Central Standard Time,
tom4141fournier@... writes:


So I  guess my question is, why the variation between the army ranks
and the  regimental ranks?






This is where things to become a bit complicated. The British purchase
system was basicaly a continuation of the medieval idea that a knight or lord
would hire and equip retainers for service under the crown and then lead these
men in the kings service. The government merely took over the job of hireing and
  equiping the men but then the officers could pay a certain amout to, in
efect,  buy these men from the government or rather defray costs from the public
purse  in order to lead these men in battle for the king.
Now the army could also apoint an officer to a rank at which they think he
is fitted to serve which is above that of his regimental rank (the one he is
wealthy enough to buy) as a result it was posible to have have an officer with
a  higher army rank than his regimental rank. To confuse things even further
the  officer always wore the higher rank on his eoauletes and was refered to by
his  higher rank.
Another book in my posession is inscribed as belonging to Brooks Lawrence
Lt. Col 13th Light Dragoons 1812. I looked him up and found that this was his
army rank, within the regiment he was a Captain!

Cheers

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, BritcomHMP@... wrote:


>
> This is where things to become a bit complicated.


Yikes!

And then add to this brevet ranks and things get even more complicated!

Thanks for the help.

Tom Fournier
41st Regiment

In a message dated 29/04/2006 14:31:47 Central Standard Time,
tom4141fournier@... writes:


And then  add to this brevet ranks and things get even more  complicated!






Not to mention local ranks and honorary ranks and, of course, the Civil
Department which often had military personell in it in positions which outranked
both their regimental and army counterparts.
Then of course Wellington could get very creative if he wanted to use
someone in a superior position. When the brilliant artilleryman Alexander Dixon
went to the peninsula he was a Captain and promotion in the RHA was strictly on
seniority. Sir Arthur (as he was then) had Dixon removed from British service
and seconded to the Portugese where he was quickly promoted to General and
then  transfered back as chief of artillery!!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tim,

You forgot Guards ranks!

Ed Seufert, Cpl
1812 Royal Marines
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: BritcomHMP@...
   To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 3:40 PM
   Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Re: Rank



   In a message dated 29/04/2006 14:31:47 Central Standard Time,
   tom4141fournier@... writes:


   And then  add to this brevet ranks and things get even more  complicated!






   Not to mention local ranks and honorary ranks and, of course, the Civil
   Department which often had military personell in it in positions which
outranked
   both their regimental and army counterparts.
   Then of course Wellington could get very creative if he wanted to use
   someone in a superior position. When the brilliant artilleryman Alexander
Dixon
   went to the peninsula he was a Captain and promotion in the RHA was strictly
on
   seniority. Sir Arthur (as he was then) had Dixon removed from British service
   and seconded to the Portugese where he was quickly promoted to General and
   then  transfered back as chief of artillery!!


   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...

   Unit Contact information for North America:
      ---------------------------------
   Crown Forces Unit Listing:
   http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

   American Forces Unit Listing
   http://usforces1812.tripod.com



   SPONSORED LINKS Living history  United kingdom  United state history
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 29/04/2006 16:30:57 Central Standard Time,
LCpl_RM@... writes:

Tim,

You forgot Guards ranks!



AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vic (and Bruce)

Possibility 1: he meant his cutlass - the tars probably had no great reverence
for blades per se and might well use a "weapon" to chop firewood/clear brush if
that's what they had.

Possibility 2: he meant the local "cutlass" - a cane cutting knife/machete
thingy.

Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice!  But he wouldn't wear it to church!

Peter
============================================================
From: <suthren@...>
Date: 2006/04/29 Sat AM 10:09:14 EST
To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Re: Arming Tars

The term 'cutlass' was also used to mean a belt-carried bill-hook kind of
tool, and also a cane-cutter's long blade rather than the fighting cutlass.
Which do you think it might have been?

Vic Suthren
----- Original Message -----
From: "J.Bruce Whittaker" <ortheris@...>
To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 9:28 AM
Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Arming Tars


> Greetings List,
> With regard to arming tars with a cutlass. I have a copy of my great
> great grandfathers log. He was in the Royal Navy and one of the first
> actions he saw was in the second Ashanti War of the 1870's. He writes
> that they were put ashore in Africa with the orders to build a road
> through the forest. He writes that the tools they were given to do the
> job were cutlasses and shovels. I know this doesn't entirely fit with
> the 1812 Forum cutlass thread but does show what a cutlass was good
> for other than bashing away at some other poor bastard on an enemy
> ship. Sorry I won't be at Longwoods for the Divine Service. I start a
> new job at Black Creek Pioneer Village that weekend. So there will be
> very little camping out and "playing army" with my friends this season.
> Be seeing you,
> Bruce Whittaker
>
>
>
>
>
> The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...
>
> Unit Contact information for North America:
>    ---------------------------------
> Crown Forces Unit Listing:
> http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
>
> American Forces Unit Listing
> http://usforces1812.tripod.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.0.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.1/326 - Release Date: 27/04/06
>
>



The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square
miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square
miles...

Unit Contact information for North America:
    ---------------------------------
Crown Forces Unit Listing:
http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

American Forces Unit Listing
http://usforces1812.tripod.com
Yahoo! Groups Links






============================================================

Gentlemen

With respect to the correctness of wearing certain arms or not when doing a
naval interpretation as a hobby, we have to be aware that RN or Provincial
Marine seamen were not issued, and in fact were not permitted to own,
weapons of any kind. Even sheathed rigging knives were subject to controls
and limitations. If you choose to arm yourself, and are concerned with
accuracy of your portrayal, then you need to be representing seamen who were
temporarily issued with arms for a specific need or occasion. It's important
to remember that the Royal Marines, and the 'Sea Regiment' men who preceded
them, were created to provide a standing armed body able both to enforce the
authority of the ship's commanding officer but also to be the usual body to
carry out military activities ashore. They were the guys who packed weaponry
all the time, not seamen. Acting in a way that suggests seamen were
continuously armed isn't accurate. Arming yourself as a Boarding Party or
armed Landing Party put together for a specific purpose can be accurate, as
long as the weaponry you have the lads pack around is appropriate to what
likely was carried back in 1812-1814 for that purpose. It's all a question
of degree of commitment to historical accuracy, I suppose, and everyone has
to decide where they want to fall on that continuum, from a ship's
biscuit-gnawing 'hard core' fanatic at one end to something resembling
'Pirates of the Caribbean' at the other.....

There'll be no killin' afore I gives the word. An' them's as dies will be
the lucky ones....

Vic Suthren
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Monahan" <petemonahan@...>
To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: Re: [WarOf1812] Re: Arming Tars


> Vic (and Bruce)
>
> Possibility 1: he meant his cutlass - the tars probably had no great
reverence for blades per se and might well use a "weapon" to chop
firewood/clear brush if that's what they had.
>
> Possibility 2: he meant the local "cutlass" - a cane cutting knife/machete
thingy.
>
> Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice!  But he wouldn't wear it to
church!
>
> Peter
> ============================================================
> From: <suthren@...>
> Date: 2006/04/29 Sat AM 10:09:14 EST
> To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Re: Arming Tars
>
> The term 'cutlass' was also used to mean a belt-carried bill-hook kind of
> tool, and also a cane-cutter's long blade rather than the fighting
cutlass.
> Which do you think it might have been?
>
> Vic Suthren
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "J.Bruce Whittaker" <ortheris@...>
> To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 9:28 AM
> Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Arming Tars
>
>
> > Greetings List,
> > With regard to arming tars with a cutlass. I have a copy of my great
> > great grandfathers log. He was in the Royal Navy and one of the first
> > actions he saw was in the second Ashanti War of the 1870's. He writes
> > that they were put ashore in Africa with the orders to build a road
> > through the forest. He writes that the tools they were given to do the
> > job were cutlasses and shovels. I know this doesn't entirely fit with
> > the 1812 Forum cutlass thread but does show what a cutlass was good
> > for other than bashing away at some other poor bastard on an enemy
> > ship. Sorry I won't be at Longwoods for the Divine Service. I start a
> > new job at Black Creek Pioneer Village that weekend. So there will be
> > very little camping out and "playing army" with my friends this season.
> > Be seeing you,
> > Bruce Whittaker
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
of
> square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS
of
> square miles...
> >
> > Unit Contact information for North America:
> >    ---------------------------------
> > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
> > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
> >
> > American Forces Unit Listing
> > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.0.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.1/326 - Release Date: 27/04/06
> >
> >
>
>
>
> The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...
>
> Unit Contact information for North America:
>    ---------------------------------
> Crown Forces Unit Listing:
> http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
>
> American Forces Unit Listing
> http://usforces1812.tripod.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ============================================================
>
>
>
>
>
> The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...
>
> Unit Contact information for North America:
>    ---------------------------------
> Crown Forces Unit Listing:
> http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
>
> American Forces Unit Listing
> http://usforces1812.tripod.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.0.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.1/326 - Release Date: 27/04/06
>
>

Concerning the cutlass weapons stores, would the entire body of Upper
Canadain/RN seaman have the newly issued straight cutlass with iron
ribbed handle?
I have a 1745 British hanger based on the Prussian model. As seamen
wouldn't own their own weapon, would something like this find its way
into the ships general weapon's storage?
[A picture in "Ghost Ships, by Emily Cain" have an underwater picture
of the "Hamilton's deck" showing a "short sword" looking more like some
futuristic "Klingon" weapon....but of course, this may be American."]
Regards
Murray

>>>Adm Vic Suthern wrote:
... as long as the weaponry you have the lads pack around is
appropriate to what likely was carried back in 1812-1814 for that
purpose. It's all a question of degree of commitment to historical
accuracy, I suppose, and everyone has to decide where they want to fall
on that continuum, ...
<<<<

Dear Murray

A very good question, and one for which I have no real answer. Stocks of
French Seven Years' War weapons, such as the  Model 1746, 1754 and later
versions of the 'fusil-grenadier' were retained for the Canadian militias
well into the War of 1812 period, so what you suggest is entirely plausible.
My own instinct would be to be very conservative, and go with a 'known'
naval pattern weapon or none at all. The farther one got inland from Quebec,
the less likely one was to have the weapons one wanted (as Robert Barclay
and his lads found out).

Yours aye
Vic


----- Original Message -----
From: "mccombs98" <macomb@...>
To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 10:03 AM
Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: RN Catulass Stores


> Concerning the cutlass weapons stores, would the entire body of Upper
> Canadain/RN seaman have the newly issued straight cutlass with iron
> ribbed handle?
> I have a 1745 British hanger based on the Prussian model. As seamen
> wouldn't own their own weapon, would something like this find its way
> into the ships general weapon's storage?
> [A picture in "Ghost Ships, by Emily Cain" have an underwater picture
> of the "Hamilton's deck" showing a "short sword" looking more like some
> futuristic "Klingon" weapon....but of course, this may be American."]
> Regards
> Murray
>
> >>>Adm Vic Suthern wrote:
> ... as long as the weaponry you have the lads pack around is
> appropriate to what likely was carried back in 1812-1814 for that
> purpose. It's all a question of degree of commitment to historical
> accuracy, I suppose, and everyone has to decide where they want to fall
> on that continuum, ...
> <<<<
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...
>
> Unit Contact information for North America:
>    ---------------------------------
> Crown Forces Unit Listing:
> http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
>
> American Forces Unit Listing
> http://usforces1812.tripod.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.0.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.1/327 - Release Date: 28/04/06
>
>

Shipmates

Hand to hand re-enactment is unlikely to form part of Naval Establishment
activity at any point, for reasons explained in the recent full discussion that
took place here.

HOWEVER, for those who still wish to pursue the simulated introduction of cold
steel thrust between gut and bladder, their bloodthirsty aspirations may find
relief at

http://www.historicalmaritimecombat.com

Happy slicing and dicing...

Yours in unarmed horror

Vic Suthren

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Vic

Scary stuff!

Peter
============================================================
From: <suthren@...>
Date: 2006/04/30 Sun AM 11:24:44 EST
To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [WarOf1812] Hand to Hand

Shipmates

Hand to hand re-enactment is unlikely to form part of Naval Establishment
activity at any point, for reasons explained in the recent full discussion that
took place here.

HOWEVER, for those who still wish to pursue the simulated introduction of cold
steel thrust between gut and bladder, their bloodthirsty aspirations may find
relief at

http://www.historicalmaritimecombat.com

Happy slicing and dicing...

Yours in unarmed horror

Vic Suthren

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square
miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square
miles...

Unit Contact information for North America:
    ---------------------------------
Crown Forces Unit Listing:
http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

American Forces Unit Listing
http://usforces1812.tripod.com
Yahoo! Groups Links





============================================================

From: <Armchairadm@...>

"... cutlasses may have been issued to Naval Gun Crews when operating on
shore..."








       Ed,

                             don't take a knife to a gun fight!  ;-)




Yrs.,

L2 ~ AdC
Crown Forces
Upper Canada

Fantasy is the last refuge of the Gentleman!
  -Peter Catley-

==============================

TO:

  "CROWN FORCES NORTH AMERICA"


            Unit Commanders,

                           Please Inform your members

==============================

I forward the following

                          L. Lozon ~ AdC
                        Crown Forces North America
==============================


The CROWN FORCES ROYAL NAVY Listing
has been updated on
http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
to read




ROYAL NAVY

Flag Officer Commanding
RADM Victor Suthren
suthren@...

Dockyard Commisioner and Fleet Commodore
CDRE Gill Bibby
gill@...

Commander, Longboat Flotilla
CDR Peter Rindlisbacher
pjrindli@...

ROYAL NAVY STAFF

Deputy Commander, Longboat Flotilla
A/CDR Mark Pergunas
pergunas@...

Staff Officer (Fleet) and Flag Lieutenant
LT Patrick Schifferdecker
boldbritishhero@...

Staff Officer (Dockyard)
LT Kenneth Fisher
louisesimcoe@...

Commander, Lake Simcoe Station
A/LT Thomas Hurlbut
hurlbut8646@...

Staff Officer (Marines)
A/SGT Edward Seufert
LCpl_RM@...

Fleet Master Gunner
Robert Irvine
irv409@...

EEEEYIKES!

This is exactly the kind of thing that makes me icky!
I mean what are these guys wearing and why do they have facial hair?
And why do these pictures look like they came from the initial
training session for that "Pyrate"  show at the Las Vegas casino?

EEEW!

Ok...I'm OK now. Just keep breathing deeply...Please don't show me
any more scary pictures Vic. (what did I ever do to you?)

Craig
>


> HOWEVER, for those who still wish to pursue the simulated
> introduction of cold steel thrust between gut and bladder, their
> bloodthirsty aspirations may find relief at
>
> http://www.historicalmaritimecombat.com

Longwoods was indeed a historical battle.    It was fought on March 4th,
1814 along the Longwoods Road (#2 highway) near Wardsville.
     Perhaps not of the magnitiude of Lundy's Lane, but no less ferocious for
the men who were there.  The casualty rate at Lundy's Lane was approximately
29%.  At Longwoods, there were 67 casualties out of 236 regulars, militia
and natives (28%).
It was worse for the regulars.  58 casualites out of 150 which is 39%!
     I admit that the Longwoods re-enactment is not held on the correct week
end and not on original land.  However, I doubt few others would join us in
March, and the original property is private farm land.
      The Sunday re-enactment is not just a 'tactical'.  We try to copy the
battle within limitations which means allowing people to participate who
were never at Longwoods (navy and artillery).  The Saturday battle is a
'tactical demonstration', not representing any particular battle.  But we
were toying with the idea of Waterloo.........

Mark Dickerson

PS:   At Juno beach on D-Day  21,400 men landed, there were 1,200
casualties.  (5%)





> Hmmm.... Longwoods is a "tactical" event, is it not? Not specifically
> modelled on a historic battle?

Jeez. Sorry.
Vic
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Williams" <sgtwarner@...>
To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Hand to Hand


> EEEEYIKES!
>
> This is exactly the kind of thing that makes me icky!
> I mean what are these guys wearing and why do they have facial hair?
> And why do these pictures look like they came from the initial
> training session for that "Pyrate"  show at the Las Vegas casino?
>
> EEEW!
>
> Ok...I'm OK now. Just keep breathing deeply...Please don't show me
> any more scary pictures Vic. (what did I ever do to you?)
>
> Craig
> >
>
>
> > HOWEVER, for those who still wish to pursue the simulated
> > introduction of cold steel thrust between gut and bladder, their
> > bloodthirsty aspirations may find relief at
> >
> > http://www.historicalmaritimecombat.com
>
>
>
> The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...
>
> Unit Contact information for North America:
>    ---------------------------------
> Crown Forces Unit Listing:
> http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
>
> American Forces Unit Listing
> http://usforces1812.tripod.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.0.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.1/327 - Release Date: 28/04/06
>
>

Er...yeah. Think I'll stick to less nasty pursuits in history...
Vic
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Monahan" <petemonahan@...>
To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Hand to Hand


> Vic
>
> Scary stuff!
>
> Peter
> ============================================================
> From: <suthren@...>
> Date: 2006/04/30 Sun AM 11:24:44 EST
> To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [WarOf1812] Hand to Hand
>
> Shipmates
>
> Hand to hand re-enactment is unlikely to form part of Naval Establishment
activity at any point, for reasons explained in the recent full discussion
that took place here.
>
> HOWEVER, for those who still wish to pursue the simulated introduction of
cold steel thrust between gut and bladder, their bloodthirsty aspirations
may find relief at
>
> http://www.historicalmaritimecombat.com
>
> Happy slicing and dicing...
>
> Yours in unarmed horror
>
> Vic Suthren
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...
>
> Unit Contact information for North America:
>    ---------------------------------
> Crown Forces Unit Listing:
> http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
>
> American Forces Unit Listing
> http://usforces1812.tripod.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> ============================================================
>
>
>
>
>
> The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...
>
> Unit Contact information for North America:
>    ---------------------------------
> Crown Forces Unit Listing:
> http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
>
> American Forces Unit Listing
> http://usforces1812.tripod.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.0.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.1/327 - Release Date: 28/04/06
>
>