Yes there was.  Today at 5:30 there was a short service at the monument with the
Niagara Parks Commission, Soldiers, Militia and First Nations Warriors of both
sides from Ft Erie and some of the fife and drum corp from
Ft George.  As well as other important people.

Kevin Windsor
89th Reg't
(and also one of those Niagara Falls Museum types)

Rich Parkinson wrote:

> Today marks the 188th anniversary of the Battle of Chippawa.  It was here that
Riall uttered those famous words, "Holy $#*~!....those dudes are regulars!",
upon seeing the well disciplined men under Scott's command.
>
> I was actually wondering that since the new monument was unveiled last October
and this is the first anniversary since then, were there any ceremonies held
today or planned for this weekend???
>
> R. Parkinson.
> 41 Regt.
>

Hi all,

I recently purchased 4 gin case bottles when I was at Jamestown; I am
now looking for a source for a case/box to put them in.

I recall seeing several sutlers at Mississinewa selling these...but
an internet search has proven fruitless.

Can anyone help?

Thanks,
Dave Lynch
93rd SHRoF

In a message dated 7/5/2002 10:06:08 PM Central Daylight Time,
arnt@... writes:


> As most of you know, the officer's gorget changed before the outbreak
> of war from the stamped out kind (RevWar period and beyond) to the
> engraved version that came into play before 1812. Both were valid for
> officers depending on when he got his commission. I am not sure when
> the change was made from stamped out to engraved, does anyone on this
> list know?
>
> The officer I portray, James Crooks, received his commission May 13,
> 1807. I am not sure whether to get the stamped out kind or the
> engraved. It depends on when that switch of style was made. Anyone
> with info on this, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks,
>

Although there are standard patterns of gorgette there are many variants as
almost every regiment added numbers mottos or badges of some kind. However
the official pattern date for the 'engraved type' that you mention was 1812.
This was a gorgette with a crowned GR surrounded by a laurel wreath, the
earlier pattern could also be engraved but had the full Royal arms. As I
recall the embossed repros that are available are in fact pre 1802 (with the
French arms but without the Irish) so personally I would go for the later
type.

A small note on the wearing of this item. It is not a badge of rank but an
insignia that show that the officer is on duty, therefore it should not be
worn all the time and indeed they were rarely worn on campaign.

Cheers

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: "dave8365" <dave8365@...>

I recently purchased 4 gin case bottles
... I am  now looking for a ...case/box to put them in.
_____________

Smoke & Fire have them
Visit
http://www.smoke-fire.com/
or call
1-800-Smoke-Fi (1-800-766-5334)

From: "dave8365" <dave8365@...>

  I am now looking for a source for a case/box

---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Trunk Shoppe also has them
http://www.thetrunkshoppe.com/

List Members:

Please indulge us for a few moments as we answer the
questions raised by Goodwife McLean in her post of June 27
regarding Four and Twenty Blackbirds (4&20, hereinafter) and
the Crysler's Farm event on July 13 and 14.

Mrs. McLean raises a valid point on the lateness of our notice to
4&20, and then inadvertently makes our case for us as she
states, "Furthermore, since this is their living, after all, they do an
event every weekend and they are hard pressed to make time for
(the information requested by the Crysler's Farm organizers for
some sort of authentication  that their cookie and lemonade
recipes are historically accurate)."

It is the position of the Friends of Crysler's Farm that 4&20 is not
a suttling operation like, say, Mrs. McLean's. They are in the food
service business and as such are less suttlers than they are
concessionaires.

While other suttlers provide an essential service to the
re-enacting community, providing the bright bits of cloth and
shiny metal for which we have such an affinity, 4&20 primarily
serves visitors to an event and in this role, we consider them
concessionaires and subject to the same rules under which
other commercial operations at the Crysler's Farm event will be
operating.

4&20 were told, if they could not provide information  (and not
documentation on each and every product they offer, only an
indication that their range of products is accurate to the period),
that they would be subjected to payment of 15 per cent of their
net for the weekend. Since this amount could not be arrived at
without knowing the net (not the total sales), 4&20 would have to
provide us with this information. The Morrisburg Lions Club,
which is providing a food service both to re-enactors and to the
public, at the site July 13 and 14, will be paying 25 per cent of
their net to our committee. Other concessionaires on the
weekend of July 13 – 14 are paying a percentage of their net of
from 25 to  50 per cent. All of these groups will have to divulge
their net proceeds for the weekend so that the percentage can
be calculated. This is normal practice at events like this and it
helps offset the costs associated with staging an event like
CF02.

Our budget for the weekend is over $50,000, much of which is
covered by provincial government grants (Ontario Trillium
Foundation and Ontario Tourism Marketing Partnership
Corporation), donations and the sale of corporate partnerships,
but we have a responsibility to these sponsoring organizations
to recover some of our costs - which we are doing by charging
concessionaires a percentage of their net profit.

We are all volunteers. No one on the committee makes such so
much as a farthing from the event. Hundreds of hours have been
devoted to making this year's event larger and more memorable
than last year's. It is being done to make the weekend more
enjoyable for re-enactors, to expose residents of Eastern
Ontario, Western Quebec and Northern New York to our shared
history, and to make our site more visible to the public and
potential sponsoring organizations, not to provide a free venue
for a food service operation.

Other event organizers may feel differently about the issue. That
is their right and we respect their decision.

Mrs. McLean feels 4&20 have been singled out for special
attention. She is right. As she points out, they have singled
themselves out and for this we make no apology.

Having said that, we do heartily apologize for the late notice given
to Richard and Gayle and were surprised to find out, via Mrs.
McLean's post to the group, that they will not be at CF02. This is
the first we have heard of it and we regret their decision.

Regards

Robin Morris
The Friends of Crysler's Farm

Actually
For too long re-enactors have misused the term "sutler" and now it's hurting
one of number.
Sutlers purvey food. Peddlers sell wares. The British army gave licences to
sutlers and made allowances to them for horses and fodder in the economy of
the regiment. Grand sutlers, who provided wines, liquours and victules to
the officers, were licenced directly by the regiment and they in turn
licenced the "petit" sutlers, who served smallbeer and comestables to the
rank and file.
So in fact, you are denying 4&20 from actually portraying sutlers and
allowing peddlers to portray sutlers.

Sutlers in reality ARE concessionaires. If you don't believe me perhaps you
should call Phil Dunning, a recognised authority on such matters, and ask
him. I believe he's the head of "material culture" for Parks Canada.

Tuppence

Craig Williams

List Members:

Please indulge us for a few moments as we answer the
questions raised by Goodwife McLean in her post of June 27
regarding Four and Twenty Blackbirds (4&20, hereinafter) and
the Crysler's Farm event on July 13 and 14.

Mrs. McLean raises a valid point on the lateness of our notice to
4&20, and then inadvertently makes our case for us as she
states, "Furthermore, since this is their living, after all, they do an
event every weekend and they are hard pressed to make time for
(the information requested by the Crysler's Farm organizers for
some sort of authentication  that their cookie and lemonade
recipes are historically accurate)."

It is the position of the Friends of Crysler's Farm that 4&20 is not
a suttling operation like, say, Mrs. McLean's. They are in the food
service business and as such are less suttlers than they are
concessionaires.

While other suttlers provide an essential service to the
re-enacting community, providing the bright bits of cloth and
shiny metal for which we have such an affinity, 4&20 primarily
serves visitors to an event and in this role, we consider them
concessionaires and subject to the same rules under which
other commercial operations at the Crysler's Farm event will be
operating.

4&20 were told, if they could not provide information  (and not
documentation on each and every product they offer, only an
indication that their range of products is accurate to the period),
that they would be subjected to payment of 15 per cent of their
net for the weekend. Since this amount could not be arrived at
without knowing the net (not the total sales), 4&20 would have to
provide us with this information. The Morrisburg Lions Club,
which is providing a food service both to re-enactors and to the
public, at the site July 13 and 14, will be paying 25 per cent of
their net to our committee. Other concessionaires on the
weekend of July 13 - 14 are paying a percentage of their net of
from 25 to  50 per cent. All of these groups will have to divulge
their net proceeds for the weekend so that the percentage can
be calculated. This is normal practice at events like this and it
helps offset the costs associated with staging an event like
CF02.

Our budget for the weekend is over $50,000, much of which is
covered by provincial government grants (Ontario Trillium
Foundation and Ontario Tourism Marketing Partnership
Corporation), donations and the sale of corporate partnerships,
but we have a responsibility to these sponsoring organizations
to recover some of our costs - which we are doing by charging
concessionaires a percentage of their net profit.

We are all volunteers. No one on the committee makes such so
much as a farthing from the event. Hundreds of hours have been
devoted to making this year's event larger and more memorable
than last year's. It is being done to make the weekend more
enjoyable for re-enactors, to expose residents of Eastern
Ontario, Western Quebec and Northern New York to our shared
history, and to make our site more visible to the public and
potential sponsoring organizations, not to provide a free venue
for a food service operation.

Other event organizers may feel differently about the issue. That
is their right and we respect their decision.

Mrs. McLean feels 4&20 have been singled out for special
attention. She is right. As she points out, they have singled
themselves out and for this we make no apology.

Having said that, we do heartily apologize for the late notice given
to Richard and Gayle and were surprised to find out, via Mrs.
McLean's post to the group, that they will not be at CF02. This is
the first we have heard of it and we regret their decision.

Regards

Robin Morris
The Friends of Crysler's Farm





The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Sorry. That should say," one of OUR number ".
----- Original Message -----
From: "CRAIG WILLIAMS" <sgtwarner@...>
To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Re: 4 & 20 Blackbirds not at Crysler's Farm


> Actually
> For too long re-enactors have misused the term "sutler" and now it's
hurting
> one of number.
> Sutlers purvey food. Peddlers sell wares. The British army gave licences
to
> sutlers and made allowances to them for horses and fodder in the economy
of
> the regiment. Grand sutlers, who provided wines, liquours and victules to
> the officers, were licenced directly by the regiment and they in turn
> licenced the "petit" sutlers, who served smallbeer and comestables to the
> rank and file.
> So in fact, you are denying 4&20 from actually portraying sutlers and
> allowing peddlers to portray sutlers.
>
> Sutlers in reality ARE concessionaires. If you don't believe me perhaps
you
> should call Phil Dunning, a recognised authority on such matters, and ask
> him. I believe he's the head of "material culture" for Parks Canada.
>
> Tuppence
>
> Craig Williams
>
> List Members:
>
> Please indulge us for a few moments as we answer the
> questions raised by Goodwife McLean in her post of June 27
> regarding Four and Twenty Blackbirds (4&20, hereinafter) and
> the Crysler's Farm event on July 13 and 14.
>
> Mrs. McLean raises a valid point on the lateness of our notice to
> 4&20, and then inadvertently makes our case for us as she
> states, "Furthermore, since this is their living, after all, they do an
> event every weekend and they are hard pressed to make time for
> (the information requested by the Crysler's Farm organizers for
> some sort of authentication  that their cookie and lemonade
> recipes are historically accurate)."
>
> It is the position of the Friends of Crysler's Farm that 4&20 is not
> a suttling operation like, say, Mrs. McLean's. They are in the food
> service business and as such are less suttlers than they are
> concessionaires.
>
> While other suttlers provide an essential service to the
> re-enacting community, providing the bright bits of cloth and
> shiny metal for which we have such an affinity, 4&20 primarily
> serves visitors to an event and in this role, we consider them
> concessionaires and subject to the same rules under which
> other commercial operations at the Crysler's Farm event will be
> operating.
>
> 4&20 were told, if they could not provide information  (and not
> documentation on each and every product they offer, only an
> indication that their range of products is accurate to the period),
> that they would be subjected to payment of 15 per cent of their
> net for the weekend. Since this amount could not be arrived at
> without knowing the net (not the total sales), 4&20 would have to
> provide us with this information. The Morrisburg Lions Club,
> which is providing a food service both to re-enactors and to the
> public, at the site July 13 and 14, will be paying 25 per cent of
> their net to our committee. Other concessionaires on the
> weekend of July 13 - 14 are paying a percentage of their net of
> from 25 to  50 per cent. All of these groups will have to divulge
> their net proceeds for the weekend so that the percentage can
> be calculated. This is normal practice at events like this and it
> helps offset the costs associated with staging an event like
> CF02.
>
> Our budget for the weekend is over $50,000, much of which is
> covered by provincial government grants (Ontario Trillium
> Foundation and Ontario Tourism Marketing Partnership
> Corporation), donations and the sale of corporate partnerships,
> but we have a responsibility to these sponsoring organizations
> to recover some of our costs - which we are doing by charging
> concessionaires a percentage of their net profit.
>
> We are all volunteers. No one on the committee makes such so
> much as a farthing from the event. Hundreds of hours have been
> devoted to making this year's event larger and more memorable
> than last year's. It is being done to make the weekend more
> enjoyable for re-enactors, to expose residents of Eastern
> Ontario, Western Quebec and Northern New York to our shared
> history, and to make our site more visible to the public and
> potential sponsoring organizations, not to provide a free venue
> for a food service operation.
>
> Other event organizers may feel differently about the issue. That
> is their right and we respect their decision.
>
> Mrs. McLean feels 4&20 have been singled out for special
> attention. She is right. As she points out, they have singled
> themselves out and for this we make no apology.
>
> Having said that, we do heartily apologize for the late notice given
> to Richard and Gayle and were surprised to find out, via Mrs.
> McLean's post to the group, that they will not be at CF02. This is
> the first we have heard of it and we regret their decision.
>
> Regards
>
> Robin Morris
> The Friends of Crysler's Farm
>
>
>
>
>
> The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
> square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS
of
> square miles...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Thank you for your response.  It is my feeling that you should run your
event however you want, and make whatever decisions you wish with regard
to vendors/sutlers/peddlers/blanket traders/purple poodles/whatever.
  However, if you are going to change the rules, the last minute is no
time to do it.  People will put up with almost anything if they know
about it ahead of time -- and they can make an educated decision on
whether or not they want to have anything to do with an event when they
get all of the pertinent information up front.  I don't believe that
anyone is asking you to provide a free place to sell anything (food or
otherwise), and it is my feeling that if you had asked for a flat
sutler's fee across the board, no-one would have had any trouble paying
it.  How very unfortunate that the timing of your communications with
4&20 has caused such a significant amount of shock among the sutlers!

I'll be sending you a longer reply off-list once I've had a chance to
digest your reply a bit.  And I will pass on your reply, in full, to
Gayle and Richard, since they don't have e-mail.  I understand that
Gayle has written you a snail mail letter, which is undoubtedly in the
tender (?) care of Canada Post at this time.

Best regards,
-- Susan McLean
Mrs. McLean's Mercantile

I have the British regiments that were at the Battle of New Orleans,
1815, can anyone help me narrow it down to which regimental
battalions were there?
Thanks

I'm afraid I would have to concur with Susan McLean and Craig Williams
in their disapproval of the Crysler's Farm committee's decision regarding
4&20 Blackbirds. I, like many other reasonable, rational people have no
difficulty with rules and abiding by them provided those rules are clear and
communicated at the outset and not changed after the fact. To change the
rules after the fact puts into question the integrity of the entire
committee; reputation in any field, any walk of life, is a foundation upon
which we should build all else. I also have no difficulty with juried
events, and in fact welcome them; however, I very much have difficulty with
a jurying process after acceptance.

     Frankly I feel if 4&20 have to provide documentation for every item they
sell, so should Sutler Syrus, Mrs. McLean, Allan Harps, Linda's Early
Fashions, Norfolk Mercantile, any other sutler attending, and, yes, even
Five Rivers Chapmanry were we attending Crysler's Farm. It is consistency
that is necessary here, in my opinion. Consistency connotes fair-treatment
and consideration. Consitency leaves no room for doubt or
mis-interpretation.

     For the committee to change the rules now, in my opinion, comes across
as nothing other than a money-grab. Having run a festival of national
significance for two years, I well understand the difficulties of balancing
a budget for a not-for-profit organization. And I well understand the hours
required in putting together such a massive undertaking. For three years of
my life I put my writing career on hold (essentially destroying it), worked
12-16 hour days, seven days a week, without recompense, and in the end
destroyed my health. It's not easy. You have my sympathy. But there is also
reputation to consider, and the sponsorship and goodwill that reputation can
garner, or destroy.

     I am also dismayed with the implied opinion in the Committee's decision,
that sutlers, particularly those involved in food-trades, make a small
fortune at events. I can most heartily attest to the fact we don't make a
small fortune. It's hard work, for modest return, often done as a supplement
to income and/or the love of history. And frankly, having also cooked for
scores of people in an historical fashion, I can attest to the fact costs
and labour are high while any financial gain is low.

     Gail and Richard have nothing but my admiration for what they do. I
can't begin to contemplate the leg-numbing, back-aching, ohmygawdit hurts
kind of labour they put in for the week, and sometimes weeks, prior to an
event. It's not as if they can simply go to their local box grocery store
and pick up 24 cases of burgers, fries, sausages, buns and condiments as
these other food concessionaries do, if one is even to consider grouping
4&20 with them. What 4&20 present is so far beyond what the local Lions,
Rotary, Scouts, whatever, can and will offer that it makes the argument
entirely ridiculous and meaningless.

     For the Committee to further place 4&20 in the same category with
service clubs such as the Lions, or even some greasy mobile chip wagon is
illogical. Service clubs, by their very nature, exist to 'serve', to provide
certain needs within the communities they serve. So for these organizations
to cheerfully donate any part of their profits to events is simply
fulfilling their mandate. The chip wagons are set up as commercial, modern
food concessions. They do not in any manner enhance the historical aspect of
a re-enactment.

     And then to make a veiled denigration of the fact 4&20 conduct trade
with the general public is less than a noble or diplomatic position to take.
I'd hazard to guess our good Bev and his candy do a fair trade with the
general public, as does Syrus with his games, as does Greg with his prints,
and Norfolk trading with books & wooden guns, as does Susan with her woollen
goods, and the game-sellers and kettle corn vendor. In fact, I'd say there
are very few of we sutlers who don't traffic much with the general public:
Gary & I with our cooperage and patterns, Linda with her garments, Ken &
Elsie with their garments and woollens, Richard & Linda with their caps and
paintings.

     In summary I cannot help but feel the Crysler's Farm Committee have made
an unfortunate and ill-considered decision. I can only hope for the event
and its organizers, little say the re-enactors and sutlers who intend
participating, this decision will can be overcome in a reasonable and
equitable manner. We all make mistakes. That's human. But few of us make
that leap in grace to correct our errors, publically, with equinamity. It is
my sincere hope the Committee can foster and demonstrate that kind of
integrity.

Respectfully
Lorina Stephens
Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage
fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery
supplies
(519) 799-5577, fax (519) 799-5418 http://www.5rivers.org  email:
info@...

Well said Lorina!!

Craig

Agreed, wholeheartedly!
-- Sioux

CRAIG WILLIAMS wrote:

>Well said Lorina!!
>
>Craig
>

For those in need of a Post Horn,
which is the bugle in the shape of the
light infantry badge, an ideal bugle for
cavalry and light companies.

contact

Ken & Elsie Fisher, owners of

Ashley Grange Traders
RR #1
22799 Kintyre Line
Rodney, Ontario
Canada  N0L 2C0
(519) 785 - 2215

PS: Their computer is down and no email is avail.
for a photo of the Post Horn in question email me
off the list.

In a message dated 7/7/2002 10:39:40 PM Central Daylight Time,
lalozon@... writes:


> For those in need of a Post Horn,
> which is the bugle in the shape of the
> light infantry badge, an ideal bugle for
> cavalry and light companies.
>
>

Actually Sir Lar a Post Horn is a long straight one as used on the old
Georgian Mail coaches (that's why they are called *post* horns :-)

Cheers

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: <BritcomHMP@...>



.... a Post Horn is a long straight one as used on the old
Georgian Mail coaches (that's why they are called *post* horns :-)
__________

Yur Grace,

         The horn I speak of is the round spiralled horn as on
the Post Box - thus 'Post Horn'.

I believe good Lieutenant General, there are in fact 2 Post Horns.

The old Long straight that evolved into the round spiralled.
The latter being the result of the long horn being hard to handle
while on the driver's seat of the coach.

For the Information of those who are attending the
Battle of Crysler's Farm, 2002 Re-enactment.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Morris" <record@...>
Subject: Food ~ Battle of Crysler's Farm, 2002 Re-enactment


We will be supplying breakfast Saturday and Sunday (pancakes and sausages)
and supper Saturday night (baked ham and baked potatoes).

  We will also have a food concession on site for hamburgers, hot dogs, etc.

  Regards

  Robin Morris
______

Have you registered?
Visit: http://www.cryslersfarm.com/register_form.htm

For Info
Visit: http://www.cryslersfarm.com/re-enactment.htm

In a message dated 7/8/2002 9:06:16 AM Central Daylight Time,
lalozon@... writes:


> I believe good Lieutenant General, there are in fact 2 Post Horns.
>
> The old Long straight that evolved into the round spiralled.
> The latter being the result of the long horn being hard to handle
> .


Only for the effete foreign types; stalwart citizens of the Empire could
handle long straight ones just as easily as small curled up ones. ;-)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: <BritcomHMP@...>



~ stalwart citizens of the Empire could
  handle long straight ones just as easily as small curled up ones. ;-)
_____________

I believe one of the good Captain of Engineers Lady Friend said
the same thing ...... :^)

Damnb, I shouldn't have said that, forgive me .........

Hi Larry,
I will have to back Da Boss on this one, I believe the straight horn
was a proper 'Post Horn' for Royal Mail Coaches and lunch and alarm
horns. The curved type we see on our badges comes from the Germanic
hunting horns. Another curved type developed into the French Horn of
the modern orchestra and torture device of parents with highschool
aged children. Perhaps not as bad as the clarinet or..or... the
piccolo. That's what has caused the titinitus... it's a C Sharp...
Aaah...
Ringly,
Len
--- In WarOf1812@y..., "Larry Lozon" <lalozon@n...> wrote:
> From: <BritcomHMP@a...>
>
>
>
> .... a Post Horn is a long straight one as used on the old
> Georgian Mail coaches (that's why they are called *post* horns :-)
> __________
>
> Yur Grace,
>
>         The horn I speak of is the round spiralled horn as on
> the Post Box - thus 'Post Horn'.
>
> I believe good Lieutenant General, there are in fact 2 Post Horns.
>
> The old Long straight that evolved into the round spiralled.
> The latter being the result of the long horn being hard to handle
> while on the driver's seat of the coach.

To the group,
      I just signed on to the group and would like to say hi.  My main
area of interest is the naval side of the war and parts of the Battle
of New Orleans (West Bank and Lake Borgne). I recently became
intriqued with the Battle of Lundy's Lane and the 1814 Niagara
campaign after reading "Where Right and Glory Lead!" by Donald E.
Graves.  It is a great book that kept me up for late for two nights
because I could not put it down.  Anyway, I am glad I found this
group and look forward to posting qestions and hopefully some answers.
Regards,
Jim

Jim,

Welcome aboard. We're always glad to have another ear to bend and voice to be
heard. Huzzah!!!

JG/RE

Welcome Aboard, Matey!  I'm with a Naval Reenactment Group in the
Washington DC/Baltimore/Annapolis MD area.
Give our site a looksee http://www.shipscompany.org   Our next event
will be the Battle of Bladensburg on August 17th.
What other nautical 1812 groups have you come across?

fayettevillestation wrote:

>  To the group,
>      I just signed on to the group and would like to say hi.  My main
> area of interest is the naval side of the war

--
Vince Wilding  (Splotch, Fuzzee & Minnie's Majordomo)
email:Vince (at) VinceWilding.com  http://www.VinceWilding.com
Long Live President Madison!

Thanks, Larry - you're a Peach!!!

Dave


--- In WarOf1812@y..., "Larry Lozon" <lalozon@n...> wrote:
> From: "dave8365" <dave8365@a...>
>
>  I am now looking for a source for a case/box
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> The Trunk Shoppe also has them
> http://www.thetrunkshoppe.com/

Hello,

Popped back on the list to add my two cents to this interesting
thread.

I did not see where the determination that 'Flank Companies' were not
used as lights in the screening modes.  My research has shown this to
be their main purpose.  You folks called these companies 'Flank' and
we called them 'Light' or 'Rifle'.  Your militia Articles called for
two per regiment (8 coy + two flanks = 10) and we had one per
battalion (2 battalions per regiment meant 2 lights as well).  US
standing militia wore civilian uniforms yet the 'Lights' wore
uniforms and were subject to fine for not having one.  The uniform
style varied per each state's law.  The purpose of the uniform was
identification and a sense of elite status.

Our 'Lights' and I bet your 'Flanks' performed the duties of
screening the remaining 8 coys and/or protecting the flanks.  When
not in front the 'Flanks' assume a position on the ends of the line
or fell in on the rear as a reserve.  Their training was not to make
them a steady unit for the regiment, but to enable them to operate in
extended order.  This was not as easy a task as standing in a line.
The 'Flank' soldier had to be able to work in a small two or three
man group and understand a whole new series of bugle and/or whislte
calls.  He also had to learn bounding maneuvers in the advance and
fall-back.  I believe this is why the unit had to train more often
than the 'Standing' line units.

The reason for more than the token two was the growing need for more
screening forces.  Also, there was the practise of pulling
the 'Flanks from units to form a 'Light'or 'Flank' Battalion to
operate as lights for a brigade.  Therefore a smart commander liked
to have more than one trained 'Flank' coy. The regulars tended to
train extra companies as lights as well.

The soldier would switch out of the unit because service in
the 'Flanks' was a lot of work.  it required far more running than
the standing coy. Your system may have wanted all to have a chance at
it,  The US militia 'Lights' were a separate coy that recruited its
own volunteer from the standing coys.  It tended to be a popularity
contest.  The uniform and physical requirements tended to make them
elitest or snobish to the standing folks.  They carried company
banners and the Maine (Massachusetts) 'Lights" favored the jockey
style cap with the bear comb from front to back.

Like your 'Articles' The US had Fedaral and State laws regarding the
size and appearance, etc. of the boys

Tom

From: "lenthecooper" <lheidebrecht@...>

I believe the straight horn was a proper 'Post Horn' for Royal Mail Coaches

The curved type we see on our badges comes from the Germanic
hunting horns.
....................


Len, I must have posed this directly to His Grace, so here it is

The horn is reproduced from pics by Herbert Knoetel of the King's
German Legion 1800's.
It is of an Adolphus Frederick, Duke of Cambridge, son of George III's
Hanoverian-a-fied thingie, used by the King's German Legion and still
on the German Postal System Mail boxes (Post Box).

Hello,

I've recently been making bentwood shaker boxes, and since the
technique appears to be the same, I've been thinking about trying my
hand at making a few "cheesebox" style canteens.

Before I get started I have the following questions for anyone who's
owned or used one, or who even knows anyone who has.

1. Are they prone to leak more than the "barrel" style?  (I'd assume
the inside of the originals were coated with beeswax or parrafin,
given the difficulty of acheiving a good watertight seal on this type
of joint.)

2. Does anyone know of any mention (good or bad) of this style in
period?

3. Was this style used only by the US forces, or did British/Canadian
units in NA also use them?  Everything I've found points to US
forces, but wouldn't it be logical for the Canadian militia to have
used them too?

Lastly, if anyone's already tried this I'd like to hear about your
experience.

Thanks for your time,
Brian Smith

Tom,
In regards to your comments, all you say is generally correct in regards to
the functional duties of "Flankers" but the reality of the system in Upper
Canada did not match the "theory" or practice of the regulars.  There may
well have been the intent to utilize the "Flankers" as you state, but the
relatively short time they were in existence as an entity and the documented
events they were involved in seem to show otherwise.
Regards
richard Feltoe

I've had two different "cheese box" canteens (both repops, of course).  One
leaked like a sieve (don't remember who made it) the other was made by the
late Carl Campbell and works just fine.  I would suggest using brewers pitch
to seal them.
As far as I know they were only used by US forces.
If you intend to produce them commercially, I'm sure there would be a fairly
good market among US 1812 reenactors.

        Ed B.
        17th US Reg. Inf.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Ed,

Thanks for your comments.  I'm not thinking about going into business
yet - I'd want to be sure I was able to make a good watertight
product before I tried that, and I haven't even produced the shaping
form yet.  At the very least this will provide me with an interesting
project.  The bent wood boxes I've been making are for dry goods, and
I haven't had to face the problem of sealing the seams.

At the risk of asking a dumb question, was brewers pitch used for
such things in period?

Brian S.