I would be Peter!
Lt K 89th

Peter Catley wrote:

> Tracey,
>
> Would you like me to see if I can find Madder in seed form? :)
>
> Peter Catley
>

Dying of wool...does it really "madder"?  (oooh that one hurt)

Madder was only part of the dying process. (Urine on the other hand...)

Much of the scarlet dyed wool was done in Stroud and it would appear that Madder
was an ingredient in later years. Cochineal  (which came from the shells from a
beetle
was used extensively) and was by far the largest source of the red dye used in
colouring the wool.

A very interesting article was printed in Military Illustrated Past and Present
February 1995 entitled "Making the Redcoat: British Army Uniform Manufacture".

Have no fear.  The article (in its entirety) is available on the web site that
was used to publish "Red River Redcoats" (the currently defunct newsletter of
the Forces of
Lord Selkirk) on. (The newsletter may be again revived (with a little bit of
luck). We (read that I) needed a break!

If you would like to read the article feel free to do so by going to:

www.geocities.com/rrredcoats/ARCHIVES.html

The issue that the article appeared in was May 2000.  The article is complete
with recipes (for you adventurous types).

Enjoy your read (and/or reads).

Don Zorniak
Editor Emeritus
Red River Redcoats

tracyforsyth2001 wrote:

> Madder red die made from natural plants..... does anyone know what
> type of plants would give this color?
>
> --- In WarOf1812@y..., "Scott Jeznach" <sjeznach@w...> wrote:
> >
> >   I will also add that madder red is one of the easiest dies to
> produce from natural plants and is dark enough to hide dirt.  Unlike
> the French white regimental coats.
> >   Scott J.
> >   Royal Marines
> >
> >
>
>
> The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am glad methods used to dye materials have changed over the years:)

The things I learn from this yahoogroup never cease to amaze me!!
                            Tracy specatator

Okay the search started yesterday over dinner with some friends!

Peter Catley

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Windsor [mailto:kevin.windsor@...]
Sent: 26 June 2002 02:29
To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Re: madder red/natural plants

I would be Peter!
Lt K 89th

Peter Catley wrote:

> Tracey,
>
> Would you like me to see if I can find Madder in seed form? :)
>
> Peter Catley
>



The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Madder was only part of the dying process. (Urine on the other hand...)

Much of the scarlet dyed wool was done in Stroud and it would appear that Madder
was an ingredient in later years. Cochineal  (which came from the shells from a
beetle
was used extensively) and was by far the largest source of the red dye used in
colouring the wool.

>That's interesting.  It was my understanding that cochineal was more expensive
and produced a more "purple" tinted red, more appropriate for upper classes and
officers.

Scott J.
Royal Marines.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Many years ago when I worked as a chemist we used cochineal for various tests.

When we dyed wool with cochineal it produced a brilliant red colour,  not really
a purple (the source of the royal purple dye interestingly enough came from a
Greek
shellfish).

Cochineal was expensive (as it came from the American tropics and someone had to
select only the females of that species of insect...which makes you wonder how
they "sexed"
them) and that is probably why in later years they used a combination of Madder
root (from Eurasian origin) and cochineal. Madder gives a strong red but tends
to lean
towards more of an "orangey" red (no worry about the sex of a root).  This is
probably why they used a combination of the two.

Don Zorniak
Chemist Emeritus

Scott Jeznach wrote:

>
> >That's interesting.  It was my understanding that cochineal was more
expensive and produced a more "purple" tinted red, more appropriate for upper
classes and officers.
>
> Scott J.
> Royal Marines.
>
>

The 'purple dye' used in the Greek and Roman period was harvested from
the Murex shellfish - now virtually extinct in the Mediterranean.  The
site at which I excavated for six years, Dor, was a centre for the
making of the dye, and on site we found large pits filled with the
crushed shells of these aquatic animals.  On the basalt rocks on the
shore you can still see the vats used to rot the first stage of the
dye-making.
The shells and creatures were crushed, then boiled in vats.  They were
then left out in the sun so that excess water could be evaporated and
the thick residue could then be sifted in a highly concentrated form.
The process was extremely labour intensive, and as far as we can
determine was primarily a commercial venture by a few manufacturers -
the process was also very tedious and long.  The result was that a
purple-dyed cloak, used by noibility and generals in the Roman Army,
would cost the equivalent of $10,000 a piece.  Hardly an argument for
cheapness.
The Geographer Strabo describes the evaporation process as smelling like
rotten garlic - it was always downwind of any residential area.  In this
region the prevailing wind - for 90% of the year - was from the south
west.
A bit off topic - but interesting.  Just shows you to what expense the
'nobility' will go to make themselves look good - hey that sounds like
our 1812 staff!!!
Ray Hobbs
41st Regt. of Foot

Zorniak wrote:

>
> When we dyed wool with cochineal it produced a brilliant red colour,
> not really a purple (the source of the royal purple dye interestingly
> enough came from a Greek
> shellfish).
>
> Don Zorniak
> Chemist Emeritus
>
> Scott Jeznach wrote:
>
> >
> > >That's interesting.  It was my understanding that cochineal was
> more expensive and produced a more "purple" tinted red, more
> appropriate for upper classes and officers.
> >
> > Scott J.
> > Royal Marines.
> >
> >
>
>
> The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
> of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
> THOUSANDS of square miles...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lloyd, List, et al,

I spoke with Chuck Kibby, yesterday, and it seems we are going to have are
realy "bang up" event at Mackinac this summer.

Friday night promises to be a good starter with a "ship to shore" gun
battle, and the "burn and scuttle" of our mock schooner.

Any Tars and Marines that want to get involved, should contact me off the
list.  As well, we would like to see some artillery to fill out our shore
battery.  They should be on the ground on Friday, to go through a reheasal.

The "Combined Operations" of North West Company Militia, Native Allies, and
10th Royal Vets welcome any British or Canadian units to join us in the
assault on the town, on Saturday morning.  Greg and his boys never put up
much of a fight.  We plan to use a secret weapon this year.  Leave a barrel
of shrub in front of the town hall, and the Michigan Provincials will all be
drunk when we come ashore.

Chuck has also promised me that I do not have to walk up the front path to
the Fort for Saturday's evening battle on the island.  It's a long climb up
that stone wall, for some of us.  There are supposed to be supply wagons for
us to "ride up in style!"

If you have never been to Mackinac, then you have missed a key battle in the
fight for British North America.  Contact law@... or
agower@... to register.

The dates are 2-3-4 August, 2002.

YH&OSvt.

Capt. Antoine Landrieaux
Officer in Command
Fort William, Upper Canada
Corps of Canadian Voyageurs

(aka Jim Keigher)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>
> He needs to talk to you about the event coordination ,and I will have 6
lbs of 1f to hand you as soon as I see you .
> The event is comming together nicely and we look forward to seeing you
again

I think I know already, but I wanted to double check.

Are there NO umbrella organizations for 1812 reenacting? In RevWar
there are three main ones: The Brigade of the American Revolution,
The British Brigade, and the Continental Line. To participate in any
events sponsored by one or more of these organizations you have to
belong to them and pay your dues. Is there anything similar for 1812?

Calvin Arnt.
Lincoln Militia, 1rst Reg't.

From: "cl_1873" <arnt@...>

I think I know already ...
  Are there NO umbrella organizations for 1812 reenacting?
.....................

No Calvin .......

                     Not like in Rev anyway. Go to the archives as
this was a thread that was whipped to death some time ago.

                     There is however, The Napoleonic Association
as well as The North America Brigade which does influence
the 1812 British field command as Lt. General Timothy Pickles
and 2IC Col. Peter Twist.

NO!

Bob Dorian

Greetings Group,
There was talk at the Gunboat Weekend about very recent changes to
the rules and regulations that should be of great concern to
reenactors and their entry into the United States. This doesn't
concern the recent thread about individuals having hassles at the
border. Apparently the new rules came out last week. Does anyone know
more about these changes? Thanks.
J.Bruce Whittaker
Norfolk Militia Rifle Coy.

Nothing like BAR (thank God), but most of the British units have banded
together to form a battalion which operates as the field command for
most major 1812 events. Under LCol Peter "Now THAT'S a Battalion
Volley" Twist ...

> I think I know already, but I wanted to double check.
>
> Are there NO umbrella organizations for 1812 reenacting? In RevWar
> there are three main ones: The Brigade of the American Revolution,
> The British Brigade, and the Continental Line. To participate in any
> events sponsored by one or more of these organizations you have to
> belong to them and pay your dues. Is there anything similar for 1812?
>
> Calvin Arnt.
> Lincoln Militia, 1rst Reg't.

Bruce et al

Please refer to the BATF web site.

As far as I know no new regulations have come into effect recently (last week)
which will affect what we do.

Remember that "historic" arms such as Brown Besses are exempt from the
regulations.

For more information go to:

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/form6updatesfaqs.htm

Always be on the safe side, so carry info about the event as in: proof that you
are registered at the event, and any "advertising" regarding the event.  It
never hurts to
have one of the organizers to send you a confirmation that you are attending the
event to show US Customs.

Don Zorniak

In case you have not seen it, I forward this message from Susan Ramsey
of Battlefield House, Stoney Creek.
'Twas a lot of fun!
Ray Hobbs
41st Regt. of Foot
**********************************


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: "Raymond Hobbs" <ray.hobbs@...>

  In case you have not seen it, I forward this message from
Susan Ramsey of Battlefield House, Stoney Creek.
  'Twas a lot of fun!

**********************************

Corporal Hobbs

        This list doesn't support attachments, I have taken
the liberty of posting the attached message.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Ramsay, Susan" <curator@...>
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 9:19 AM
Subject: Thank you for another successful event!


On behalf of Battlefield House Museum, I would like to thank you for
participating in the Battle of Stoney Creek for this year.  The event was an
enormous success thanks to the commitment of the hundreds of re-enactors
that came from all over Ontario and the United States.  Please extend my
gratitude to the members of your unit and family that also joined.  I look
forward to seeing you next year.

sincerely,

Susan Ramsay
Curator

--- In WarOf1812@y..., "cplwattie" <cwattie@n...> wrote:
> Nothing like BAR (thank God),

Hm, I was thinking about joining the BAR- what are the bad points
about them? Are umbrella orgs. verboden in War of 1812 reenactment?

Stig

From: "druzhba57" <druzhba57@...>

I was thinking about joining the BAR- what are the bad points
about them? Are umbrella orgs. verboden in War of 1812 reenactment?
.................

  Stig

          1812 seems to be a group of units that do not want
to organise. It has been tried three time and failed.

In Rev

British Brigade                           www.BritishBrigade.org
Brigade of the American Revolution      www.brigade.org
Continental Line                         www.continentalline.org
Northwest Territory Alliance      www.nwta.com/main.html

the umbrella groups rule. If you want to go to an event you
'MUST' be a member. A highland group was asked to leave
a rev event as they did not belong to one of the above.
So like them or not they are a necessity if you want to play
in Rev.

The British Brigade   www.BritishBrigade.org  is strictly that
Royal troops.

The Continental Line   www.continentalline.org  are the American forces.

The Brigade of the American Revolution      www.brigade.org
and The Northwest Territory Alliance      www.nwta.com/main.html
are both Royal and American forces.

The NWTA is in Chicago area.

The British Brigade, the Bridade of the American Revolution and
Continental Line are in the eastern seaboard area.

I just returned from a rev event at Crown Point and all were checked
to what Rev umbrella they were members of. The event was open to
BB, CL and BAR members only.

1812'ers

            It seems a sash and a mug were left at
the Stoney Creek event May 31 June 1,2 2002.

If they are yours contact:

Sue Ramsay at curator@...

----- Original Message -----
From: jbwhittaker <ortheris@...>
To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:49 PM
Subject: [WarOf1812] Stateside Events


> Greetings Group,
> There was talk at the Gunboat Weekend about very recent changes to
> the rules and regulations that should be of great concern to
> reenactors and their entry into the United States. This doesn't
> concern the recent thread about individuals having hassles at the
> border. Apparently the new rules came out last week. Does anyone know
> more about these changes? Thanks.
> J.Bruce Whittaker
> Norfolk Militia Rifle Coy.

         Bruce, I was at Gunboat Weekend, and yes it was a great topic of
conversation - "it" being new ATF regulations that supposedly would hamper
Canadians bringing muskets and powder into the US.  Also at Gunboat Weekend
was Grover Katzman of Forsyth's Rifles who also is a Customs officer on the
US side, and he later sent me this e-mail:

CHANGE No. 2.......

For those of you who I told, in good faith, that anyone not a United States
Citizen needed an form ATF-6 to bring in a black powder weapon or black
powder itself...........

The United States Federal Government has seen the error of its ways and
recanted that edict......
A non United States Citizen can, may, will be able to bring in a flint lock
type weapon(I have no idea about caps) and powder WITH OUT applying for the
ATF-6.

In short..... we are like we were.


     And this e-mail from John Dixon

Ahoy Don

I did a little research into the new regulations ATF F6. It appears that
re-enactors have nothing to worry about as far as bringing muskets into the
USA. According to the GUN CONTROL ACT 90-618 section 921 - 3 , 921 - 16 B,
Subpart B, replica flintlock, matchlock, percussion cap are considered
antiques firearms not firearms and do not fall under form 6.
See question #25 regarding antiques.

Gun Control Act
http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/gca.htm
Section 178.115 Exempt Importation -(c) The provisions of this subpart shall
not apply with respect to the importation into the United States of any
antique firearm.
Section 178.141 - General - (d) The provisions of this part shall not apply
with respect to: The transportation, shipment, receipt, possession, or
importation of any antique firearm.

New regulations
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/022002form6updates.htm

See question #25
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/form6updatesfaqs.htm

I don't know what the situation is for cannon.
I would suggest contacting the ATF and get a response for re-enactors
attending historic battles or live shoots.
They would still have to be declared and documented so one could get back
into Canada, but that is another story.
Hope this helps out. I will be documenting this for my own use when crossing
the border.

faire winds
John


         I hope this answers your questions and concerns.........

     Don Craig, Kent-Delord House Museum, Plattsburgh, NY







f 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square
miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square
miles...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Dear list:

Let me start by telling you that I am writing to you on my own accord,
and not at the request of the folks from 4 & 20 Blackbirds.  For those
of you who are not familiar with 4 & 20, Gayle and Richard are our much
beloved historical bakers and cider providers, who set up their shop
regularly at 1812 re-enactments throughout Canada.  They are
conscientious historical re-enactors, who do their research and are well
respected within the community.  They have been extremely creative in
accommodating modern health codes and regulations within their setup,
and they have furthermore gone to the very significant expense of
building, equipping, and maintaining a fully Health-Canada-approved
commercial bakery, in which they spend countless hours baking and
packaging their delightful goods.  They are full-time food sutlers, and
they are committed to both getting it right historically and maintaining
the highest standards of quality, cleanliness, and good taste.

That being said, let me tell you about the situation that has come up
with regard to the Crysler's Farm event this year.

The basics:
- Last year, only 4 & 20 and two other sutlers took the chance and
committed to attend Crysler's Farm. Let us not forget that for Gayle and
Richard, the risk is higher than for other sutlers, as their leftovers
cannot, for the most part, be "held over" for the next event.
  Therefore, if they have a lousy event, their lose any money made in
what they have to throw out.
- After last year's event, 4 & 20 did a great job of PR about the event,
talking it up to other sutlers and encouraging us to go.   A lot of us
are going this year because Gayle and Richard, as well as the other
sutlers who participated in last year's event, said that it was a great
event.
- Gayle and Richard registered for this year's event months ago.
- This is a non-juried event as far as sutlers go.
- There are no sutlers' fees to attend this event.
- 4 & 20's level of authenticity was high enough to be accepted by the
Fortress of Louisbourg  in 1999, and any sutler can tell you that that
was probably the most difficult event in Canada to get into in terms of
both authenticity and space within recent memory.

The problem:
- Less than a week ago, only three weeks before the event is to take
place, Gayle suddenly got a phone call telling her that she was not a
historical re-enactor, because she sold food.  When she protested that
they did historical baking, she was first scoffed at (her words exactly)
and then told that if she could provide documentation and research to
back each and every one of her recipes, that the situation might
possibly be considered.  She was also told that she could come to the
event, but only if she paid the site a fee or a percentage of sales.
  She was then asked what her average sales for a weekend would be!

Now, as you can appreciate, this was pretty off-putting for Gayle.  Not
only had they been willing to undertake the risk of an 8-hour drive each
way for last year's first time event, they had done a lot of word of
mouth PR for the event to help build sutlers' row for this year's event.
  Furthermore, no other sutler of any stripe was being juried or asked to
provide documentation of any kind -- nor were they asked to pay a fee of
any kind.  The fact that this decision was communicated to them a scant
three weeks before the event is scheduled to take place, when it is far
too late to book anything else for that weekend, just rubs salt in the
wound.

Gayle and Richard have done a lot of thinking about what they're going
to do.  They could take the time and effort to compile and send the
requested documentation, but they are not assured of being treated as
normal sutlers even if they do so.  Furthermore, since this is their
living, after all, they do an event every weekend and therefore are hard
pressed to make time for such compilation and so forth.  They flat out
refuse to pay a percentage of sales, and I have to say that I wouldn't
either.  It's nobody's business but their own how much money they make,
and if anyone had any idea of the time and effort that they put into
what they do, they'd be shocked.  And personally, I'd have been a lot
more outspoken than was our Gayle had an event organizer asked me to
divulge what my average weekend sales were!!  It's bad enought that I
have to tell Revenue Canada.  Even if Gayle and Richard did decide to
go, it would be with a very bad taste in their mouths, which would no
doubt put a significant pall on the weekend for them.

The core of the matter for me is this:  I don't mind if you want to
charge for an event -- that's fair.  I also don't mind if you want to
jury an event -- that's also fair.  But to single out one sutler from
the rest, to ask for percentages, or to change the rules at the last
minute  -- I have a problem with these.

Gayle and Richard have decided not to go to Crysler's Farm, and are
feeling very upset about the whole situation.  And I don't blame them
one bit.  Let's not forget, apart from everything else, the basic bottom
line is that because of the fact that all of this has been left until
the last possible moment so that Gayle and Richard are too late to book
anything else on this weekend, this action by the Crysler's Farm
organizers is causing them to lose any possible income from that entire
weekend, at Crysler's Farm or elsewhere.  As those of you who are
sutlers know, this is not such a huge income business that you can
afford to miss weekends during the season, especially when faced with
that long November-April gap where your income is so dramatically reduced.

As for myself, I am completely shocked at the way that Gayle and Richard
have been treated -- hence my writing to the list.  I must now consider
whether or not I can afford to miss Crysler's Farm weekend as well, as I
don't feel that I want to have much to do with event organizers who
treat people in this manner.  But, like Gayle and Richard, I would be
unable to book anything else for that weekend at this short notice.

Should any of the organizers for the event be on the list, I for one
would welcome hearing your side of the story and your rationale for
making such decisions at such inconsiderately short notice.
  Unfortunately, I must be off the list for the next five days as I'm off
(US Customs and Immigration willing -- I'll let you know how it goes!)
in a couple of hours or so for Fort Ticonderoga.  But I'll look forward
to reading everyone's comments when I get back.

Best regards to all, and thank you for letting me vent!!

-- Sioux
Mrs. McLean's Mercantile

Hello all,
   We have sent out mailings for this year's War of 1812 event at the Fort,
and if you did not get one, please email me at either David.Webb@...,
or at alderweb@....   The key things we need are numbers for food
and services, and battle planning.  We also need to know the #s of tents
(modern or period) to help with our encampment.  People can email or phone
in the information to save postage, but if you want an information package
and did not receive one, we are happy to send these out as requested.
   We hope to give  the battle commanders more flexibility in the three
battle  scenerios, and we will be using a larger field to give more room to
manoever.  We are providing three meals on Saturday, and two meals on
Sunday.  I just checked with both US and Canadian Customs, and there should
be no problem bringing muskets, cannons, or rolled cartridges across the
border.  I have  contacted the authorities on both sides, and will be
sending out notices next week.  Suttlers and artisans are again very
welcome, and there is no fee for suttlers or blanket traders.
   If you have any comments, questions, suggestions or concerns, please do
not hesitate to contact me!
   Thanks for all your past help with this event, and I look forward to a
great weekend event!
--Dave Webb, w-(905) 468-6612.  h-(905) 984-3390.

Dave,
        Here is the Registration info for Ship's Coy. Brig Niagara & 17th US
Inf.

        We shoould have four Inf.  as well our 3 pdr. wiht full four man Gun
Crew.  Additionaly there will likely be three or four campfollowers.  Expect
about five tents, all period camping.

        Thanks
              Ed Bolla
              Ship's Coy. US Brig Niagara
                 & 17th US Reg Inf.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Does anyone have any information about a Lt. Harcourt Morton? He was
wounded at Chryslers Farm serving in the 49th foot. I would be
interested if anyone knows which company he served in and how he was
wounded. Not asking much I know but any info will be much
appreciated.
Roger

Sorry for not introducing myself before posting my query about Lt.
Morton of the 49th.
My hobby is studying the battles and uniforms of the Napoleonic wars
and figure painting, most scales between 15mm - 54mm
My recent interest in the war of 1812 stems from the discovery that
the Lt. Harcourt Morton of my earlier post lived in Masham, North
Yorkshire which is close to where I live. I've just read two of
Donald Graves's books and am now hooked.
I will probably be asking more questions than answering them so
please be patient.
Roger

Hi Roger,

Welcome aboard.  Lots of us ask questions, and some give great answers.
Keep the questions coming, as we all learn more as they are answered.

Regards,

Bob Dorian
Independence, Missouri  USA

List:

We checked with both U.S. Customs and Alcohol, Tobacco and
Firearms following Mallorytown Landing's Gunboat Weekend
and were told that despite the new regulations, which came into
effect the week before the Mallorytown event, blackpowder
weapons are still considered antiques and are NOT subject to
the
new rules (which includes tanks, nuclear weapons and delivery
systems).

Ditto for blank cartridges, since they are considered only a
component of ammunition.

Rest easy. We can still get into the U.S. with our Besses,
Charlevilles, et. al.

Regards

Robin Morris
Friends of Crysler's Farm



--- In WarOf1812@y..., Zorniak <zorniak@s...> wrote:
> Bruce et al
>
> Please refer to the BATF web site.
>
> As far as I know no new regulations have come into effect
recently (last week) which will affect what we do.
>
> Remember that "historic" arms such as Brown Besses are
exempt from the regulations.
>
> For more information go to:
>
> http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/form6updatesfaqs.htm
>
> Always be on the safe side, so carry info about the event as in:
proof that you are registered at the event, and any "advertising"
regarding the event.  It never hurts to
> have one of the organizers to send you a confirmation that you
are attending the event to show US Customs.
>
> Don Zorniak

i just wanted to throw my two cents in...
The US federal government does not ypically consider any muzzle loader
(blackpowder) to be a "firearm" (same applies to most cartridge weapons made
before 1898).   That being said, never trust the feds at their word, get it
in writing and please note some states have different laws that apply within
their boundries.
ex: michigan considers muzzleloading and precussion pistols as being
firearms and they have to be registered... you might want to look at various
state and city laws as well just to be on the safe side.
ex:2 its really hard to own a full auto machine gun in michigan (though
legal by federal standards (under certain stipulations) but it is much
easier to own a Full auto in Ohio.
ex:3 In ohio inserting any magazine that holds more than 30 rounds
automaticly changes the status of the weapon to a unregistered and illegal
"machinegun" (this law is largely ignored).  Doing the same in michigan is
perfectly legal....

CB



>From: "cfri" <cfri@...>
>Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
>To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Stateside Events
>Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:43:23 -0000
>
>List:
>
>We checked with both U.S. Customs and Alcohol, Tobacco and
>Firearms following Mallorytown Landing's Gunboat Weekend
>and were told that despite the new regulations, which came into
>effect the week before the Mallorytown event, blackpowder
>weapons are still considered antiques and are NOT subject to
>the
>new rules (which includes tanks, nuclear weapons and delivery
>systems).
>
>Ditto for blank cartridges, since they are considered only a
>component of ammunition.
>
>Rest easy. We can still get into the U.S. with our Besses,
>Charlevilles, et. al.
>
>Regards
>
>Robin Morris
>Friends of Crysler's Farm
>
>
>
>--- In WarOf1812@y..., Zorniak <zorniak@s...> wrote:
> > Bruce et al
> >
> > Please refer to the BATF web site.
> >
> > As far as I know no new regulations have come into effect
>recently (last week) which will affect what we do.
> >
> > Remember that "historic" arms such as Brown Besses are
>exempt from the regulations.
> >
> > For more information go to:
> >
> > http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/form6updatesfaqs.htm
> >
> > Always be on the safe side, so carry info about the event as in:
>proof that you are registered at the event, and any "advertising"
>regarding the event.  It never hurts to
> > have one of the organizers to send you a confirmation that you
>are attending the event to show US Customs.
> >
> > Don Zorniak
>




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List,
Here's the "official" word from the BATF website:

25. Q. I am a nonimmigrant alien. Do I need a form 6 import permit to import a
muzzle loading gun that is considered an antique firearm under the Gun Control
Act?

A. No. Because antique firearms are not considered firearms for purposes of the
Gun Control Act, none of the import regulations apply to the importation of
antique firearms. Moreover, nonimmigrant aliens may possess antique firearms,
even if the alien does not fall within an exception to the nonimmigrant alien
prohibition. If you are not sure if your firearm is an antique firearm as
defined by the Gun Control Act, contact ATF's Firearms Technology Branch
(202-927-7910).

--John V.




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Greeting's to all. Have a safe and happy "Dominion" Day!!! ( I refuse to call it
Canada Day ). To our American Friends, have a safe and happy July 4th!
  Hope to see everyone  at Ft. George.
Regard's John Harris
              25th US


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