In a message dated 6/3/2002 4:31:16 PM Central Daylight Time,
ciefranche21e@... writes:


> I think of the major powers only the Austrians and Americans didn't have
> standing guard units.  At least in the regular army.  Even then the
> Austrians had standing grenadier formations.
>
>

The Austrians had Noble Guard units in which one had to be an aristo in order
to be a private The Arceren (SP?) Traubenten and Hungarian Noble Guards. Most
of the 'privates' in these units were regimental commanders and the officers
were generals and Field Marshals as I recall. So the units never appeared as
units on the field though their members did.

Cheers


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My thoughts exactly!  Glad to see that I have tought you something since it is
always the other way around!

BritcomHMP@... wrote:

> Ah now this makes more sense. They were in effect training companies then.
> Presumably called 'flank' to make them quasi elite without the designation of
> light or grenadier. This being the case, and the fact that the men rotated
> through them make me confident that the plume would be the standard white
> over red battalion variety.

Len
Yes, I read (and have) the Shire series pens book and had concluded as you do
that steel nibs were post-us, but I've since seen a reference which says
"earlier, by 1805".  The key word in the book may be "perfected".  I believe
the earlist had no slit in the nib - simply a small steel blade, so likely
very inefficient because only the ink.  Anyway, I'll have to dig out my
reference again.  (By the by, I tend to agree with your assessment of the
broom straw + nib sets, though to be fair the suttlers may have been told
they were o.k. for 1812.)

Peter Monahan
petemonahan@...
705-435-0953


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hi chewie did you see that mate of yours about that isle company?
take care
nick walsh
2nd Queens Regiment.

-------Original Message-------



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square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...

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The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
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Comments interspersed - Andrew

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Y." <pimpernel77@...>
>
> Yes, That is another subject. I was just commenting to
> someone that 1812 reenacting reminded me in many ways
> of Rev. War in the late 60's, about a decade before
> the bicentennial.

1812 is still a small period as far as numbers of participants go, so not
many makers of goods are catering to us and getting good gear takes some
resourcefulness, some connections to find the many good "cottage" makers of
1812 stuff, and some DIY spirit.  I wouldn't want to try and start a new
group from scratch - you'd end up re-inventing the wheel a lot.  Belonging
to an established unit and networking in the 1812 community are a big help,
but research is important too if you want to do it right and avoid copying
"reenactorisms".  Even the research takes some resourcefulness compared to
Civil War, where there are reams and reams of books and lots of museums full
of original clothing and gear.  Very little in the way of 1812 period
military clothing has survived.

> What are some good
> sutlers that offer period wares? I know that some seem
> to be catering to multi-period, meaning you could end
> up with something 1830's or 40's if you don't know.

Tell me what are you looking for and I'll give some suggestions?  Meanwhile,
Caveat emptor.  Do your research, pick individual items from here and there,
and be prepared to make the rest.  Offhand, G. Gedney Godwin
www.gggodwin.com has a page of 19th century stuff (mostly 1812) at the
bottom right of their web page.  The Discriminating General makes the best
buttons, belt plates and insignia out there, but be prepared to order in
bulk and then bug them.  If you're doing US, try Jarnagin's.
http://www.jarnaginco.com  Their stuff has been improving over the past few
years and their Civil War leather gear is even getting authentic enough for
the "hardcores".  I expect their 1812 leathers are similar quality.  Their
clothing is pricey and has serged seams, though.

> Another point in question, what items do you think
> need to be reproduced that no one is making? For
> example; nobody thought to make a 3 band musket until
> AFTER the Civil War centennial ended.

Around the time of the Civil War centennial, Val Forgett and Turner Kirkland
were just getting Navy and Dixie off the ground and their main products were
Italian cap and ball revolvers and Kentucky rifles.  Also there was no
demand for CW musket repros because good condition original CW muskets were
still cheap and abundant (sigh).  For 1812 there are some holes in the repro
musket supply department.  Right now most Brit reenactors carry Short Land
Besses while most US people carry Charlevilles.  Beware -  the Italian
muskets being marketed as US 1812 period (the Navy Arms "1808 Springfield",
the "M.T. Wickham") are not really correct and your best bet is to get a
1759 Charleville and convert it.  You can find a good article on converting
a Charleville into a 1795 Springfield at this web page:
http://jacksonslifeguard.homestead.com/Home.html

On the Brit side, I would love to see an affordable, correct repro of the
India Pattern Bess (comparable in price to the Pedersoli Short Land).  We in
the 41st Foot can get away with using Short Lands since that is what most of
the battalion were equipped with at the beginning of the war, but there is a
crying need for more India patterns on the field.  There is an "India
Pattern" made in India being imported which is cheap and looks OK if you
squint a little, but quality is an issue - the lock parts are soft enough to
wipe up spills with.  One of our members struggled with one for a couple of
seasons and then gave in and bought a Pedersoli.  At the other end of the
spectrum there is the Rifle Shoppe, which will build you any muzzleloader
under the sun, http://www.therifleshoppe.com/sys-tmpl/door/  but be prepared
to pay $1500 US and wait a few months for them to build it!  I recommend
getting their catalog for the drool factor alone.  There is everything from
medieval "hand gonnes" to Civil War muskets in it.  For our period they have
India pattern Besses, Baker rifles, 1803 Harper's Ferry rifles, 1795
Springfields, all the Brit and US pistols, and even the Nock Volley Gun if
you want to play Sharpe!

In the meantime, we should start lobbying Pedersoli or Armi Sport to make
correct 1812 muskets.  I'm particularly excited about Armi Sport because
they understand the needs of reenactors better than the other makers.  They
make the most authentic Enfield out there (no damned Baddeley bands!), their
1842 Springfield smoothbore is superb (I have one and love it), and there
are rumours that they have a Lorenz on the drawing board.

Hope this helps,

Andrew Bateman, 41st Reg't of Foot.

F. Y. I.

----- Original Message -----
From: Loyalist Arms



To all our past and present customers, as well as dealers and suppliers:

Loyalist Arms and Repairs, now has a new email address:
             loyalistarms@...

Please change this address, in your address books and files.
All future mailing will be accepted at this new address. Our old address is no
longer active,
so if you have sent any mail to our old address as of June 1, we will not
receive it.
We have also changed all the links on our web site.

We have changed servers, to better accommodate our customers needs. We apologize
for
any inconvenience caused by this switch over.

Please inform everyone in your units and clubs of this change as well.

***Please also, check out our newly designed website, with many updates; link
below.***
www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com

Thank you for your patience while the change over took place this weekend.

Your Servant,
Linda
for Blair Higgins, LA&R


Visit our website
www.loyalistarms.freeservers.com

"Though an army may camp against me, my heart shall not fear;
though war may rise against me, in this I will be confident." -Psalm 27:3


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

June 4th.

Though he did not become Britain's King until the year the peace
treaty was signed for this war, I would like to wish a very happy
birthday to His Majesty, George III, King of Great Britain, Ireland,
France, and of his colonies & plantations in America. Defender of the
Faith.

May we, in this modern world, carry on his memory, his cause, his
tradition & his government. God Save the King!
--
‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ
Fear God, Honour the King.
Calvin Arnt.

F&I:  James' Coy, Roger's Rangers.
RevWar:  McDonnell's Coy, Butler's Rangers.
1812:  Crooks' Coy, Lincoln Militia 1st Reg't, Flank Company.

> From:  Kevin Windsor
>
>              I am also surprised that you could understand
>              Larry's narration with his mouth full of fruit and all!!

.......I must resist the temptation......I must resist the
temptation.......to ask who.....what....must resist....
fruit....oh damn!!

Craig

Greetings all,

I've taken the liberty to again post a few pictures, this time from
the Battle of Stoney Creek.
They can be found in the "Photos" section listed to the left of the
message section.

Just click on the folder and they should appear.

Paul Kelly
Colour Ensign

If I may indulge myself a little...my favourite part of the weekend was seeing
Ron Berlin and his lovely wife Bea!

Kiss me Hardy.

Craig


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Duhhh! I first posted this to an F&I site and forgot to take our the
first bit and was applicable to F&I only . Sorry! But the B-Day
wishes still count! This is what it should have read as:

June 4th.

I would like to wish a very happy birthday to His Majesty, George
III, King of Great Britain, Ireland, France, and of his colonies &
plantations in America. Defender of the Faith.

May we, in this modern world, carry on his memory, his cause, his
tradition & his government. God Save the King!
--
‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ‰ƒ
Fear God, Honour the King.
Calvin Arnt.

F&I:  James' Coy, Roger's Rangers.
RevWar:  McDonnell's Coy, Butler's Rangers.
1812:  Crooks' Coy, Lincoln Militia 1st Reg't, Flank Company.

From: "lt_kelly1812" <kelly1812@...>



  I've taken the liberty to again post a few pictures, this time from
  the Battle of Stoney Creek.
................


  Ensign Kelly

                        Once again thanks for the memories.

I see a Commision is in store ........

  " Official Photographer to his Majesty's Forces in North America "

From: "CRAIG WILLIAMS" <sgtwarner@...>

" ... my favourite part of the weekend was seeing Ron Berlin
and his lovely wife Bea! ....
__________

I second that Craig ......

       It was special to see Ron after his very serious illness.
It seemed to be  good medicine for him to visit all his friends
at the event.

Note:
            Ron Berlin was on the committee
for the 1st Battle of Stoney Creek Event!

> Speaking of the French The Militia d'Orleans and 21 did ya proud at the Battle
of Stoney >Creek event!

Thanks Larry - we had a great time and I thoroughly enjoyed your commentary as
always - even when we came out in whites to try and give the feeling of having
being caught in camp you still managed to pick us out!

One thing we discussed is how we have been remiss about filling you in on the
details we have so far on the Battalion d'Orléans. Jean-François Lozier, our
semi-official regimental historian had the good fortune to spend some time with
Tim Pickles in Nouvelle Orléans last year and has put together some information
that he has passed on to the rest of us. Thanks very much for the help Tim and
please feel free to correct any mistakes I make relating what JF has told me.

The Battalion d'Orléans, like many militias was a combination civil defense
force and social club, drilling twice a week and then attending social functions
after. There were 5 companies, the Grenadiers modelled on the Imperial Guard,
the Dragoons, the Chausseurs and two centre companies, les Francs and les Bleus.
In the south Charles Piquet and his guys do the Grenadiers and we do the
Companie Francs here in the north.

Much of the Companie Francs were recent immigrants to the United States but they
were really  Creole Americans rather than French - some former Imperial soldiers
served in the unit but the numbers in 1815 who were Napoleonic veterans would
have been very small - possibly none. The unit existed well into the 1850s and
did see strong recruitment among emigrees who had served in the French army
previously. However it is well known that all drill was done from the French
Imperial manual which is of course the drill we use when we do our 21éme
impression.

Likewise I had initially believed that many of the uniforms were French army
surplus but they were apparently locally procured and designed in the French
style according to the research Jean-François has done. The design of the
uniforms of the centre companies is largely unknown except that they are known
to have a horsehair plume. Therefore our wearing of  late war Imperial uniform
is pure speculation although it is an educated guess. Likewise we cover the
shakos as we are certain that the wearing of an eagle plate is wrong but are not
sure as to what the correct plate is.

As far as what is becoming our camp impression many of us are from the
campaigner wing of the hobby and do other periods so we are starting to camp
light and sleep around the fire - 6 of us did that at Stoney Creek. Although the
Battalion never ventured that far from Nouvelle Orléans they did spend part of
December 1814 and January 1815 in the field. Under what conditions we are not
sure but we have chosen a light camping impression as befits a unit that was not
under the regular army supply system.

If you have any questions or comments (or even better more information) please
feel free to contact myself or Mike. We have been very pleased with the warm
reception we have been getting especially from the US 25th who always have a
smile and a handskae ready for you when you meet them.

Tod Creasey
a.k.a. Caporal du Crécy
Battalion d'Orléans
Companie Francs

--- ANDREW S BATEMAN <abateman@...> wrote:
> Comments interspersed - Andrew
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ted Y." <pimpernel77@...>
> >
> > Yes, That is another subject. I was just
> commenting to
> > someone that 1812 reenacting reminded me in many
> ways
> > of Rev. War in the late 60's, about a decade
> before
> > the bicentennial.
>
> 1812 is still a small period as far as numbers of
> participants go, so not
> many makers of goods are catering to us and getting
> good gear takes some
> resourcefulness, some connections to find the many
> good "cottage" makers of
> 1812 stuff, and some DIY spirit.  I wouldn't want to
> try and start a new
> group from scratch - you'd end up re-inventing the
> wheel a lot.  Belonging
> to an established unit and networking in the 1812
> community are a big help,
> but research is important too if you want to do it
> right and avoid copying
> "reenactorisms".  Even the research takes some
> resourcefulness compared to
> Civil War, where there are reams and reams of books
> and lots of museums full
> of original clothing and gear.  Very little in the
> way of 1812 period
> military clothing has survived.

I am with a rifle co. affiliated with the 5th Md. and
they have all the patterns.


> > What are some good
> > sutlers that offer period wares? I know that some
> seem
> > to be catering to multi-period, meaning you could
> end
> > up with something 1830's or 40's if you don't
> know.
>
> Tell me what are you looking for and I'll give some
> suggestions?  Meanwhile,
> Caveat emptor.  Do your research, pick individual
> items from here and there,
> and be prepared to make the rest.  Offhand, G.
> Gedney Godwin
> www.gggodwin.com has a page of 19th century stuff
> (mostly 1812) at the
> bottom right of their web page.  The Discriminating
> General makes the best
> buttons, belt plates and insignia out there, but be
> prepared to order in
> bulk and then bug them.  If you're doing US, try
> Jarnagin's.
> http://www.jarnaginco.com  Their stuff has been
> improving over the past few
> years and their Civil War leather gear is even
> getting authentic enough for
> the "hardcores".  I expect their 1812 leathers are
> similar quality.  Their
> clothing is pricey and has serged seams, though.

Do you know a source of the double cords to go on the
shako that are cheaper than Godwin? I wonder if there
aren't band uniform companies that make these. I have
had dealings with GGG since the bicentennial. Much of
the gear for Militia rifles is DIY and I DI back in
the 70's. Am looking at the accoutrements on the wall
now. Was a Volunteer living history interpreter one
summer on the Natchez Trace for the NPS.


> > Another point in question, what items do you think
> > need to be reproduced that no one is making? For
> > example; nobody thought to make a 3 band musket
> until
> > AFTER the Civil War centennial ended.
>
> Around the time of the Civil War centennial, Val
> Forgett and Turner Kirkland
> were just getting Navy and Dixie off the ground and
> their main products were
> Italian cap and ball revolvers and Kentucky rifles.
> Also there was no
> demand for CW musket repros because good condition
> original CW muskets were
> still cheap and abundant (sigh).  For 1812 there are
> some holes in the repro
> musket supply department.  Right now most Brit
> reenactors carry Short Land
> Besses while most US people carry Charlevilles.
> Beware -  the Italian
> muskets being marketed as US 1812 period (the Navy
> Arms "1808 Springfield",
> the "M.T. Wickham") are not really correct and your
> best bet is to get a
> 1759 Charleville and convert it.  You can find a
> good article on converting
> a Charleville into a 1795 Springfield at this web
> page:
> http://jacksonslifeguard.homestead.com/Home.html

> On the Brit side, I would love to see an affordable,
> correct repro of the
> India Pattern Bess (comparable in price to the
> Pedersoli Short Land).  We in
> the 41st Foot can get away with using Short Lands
> since that is what most of
> the battalion were equipped with at the beginning of
> the war, but there is a
> crying need for more India patterns on the field.
> There is an "India
> Pattern" made in India being imported which is cheap
> and looks OK if you
> squint a little, but quality is an issue - the lock
> parts are soft enough to
> wipe up spills with.  One of our members struggled
> with one for a couple of
> seasons and then gave in and bought a Pedersoli.  At
> the other end of the
> spectrum there is the Rifle Shoppe, which will build
> you any muzzleloader
> under the sun,
> http://www.therifleshoppe.com/sys-tmpl/door/  but be
> prepared
> to pay $1500 US and wait a few months for them to
> build it!  I recommend
> getting their catalog for the drool factor alone.
> There is everything from
> medieval "hand gonnes" to Civil War muskets in it.
> For our period they have
> India pattern Besses, Baker rifles, 1803 Harper's
> Ferry rifles, 1795
> Springfields, all the Brit and US pistols, and even
> the Nock Volley Gun if
> you want to play Sharpe!
>
> In the meantime, we should start lobbying Pedersoli
> or Armi Sport to make
> correct 1812 muskets.  I'm particularly excited
> about Armi Sport because
> they understand the needs of reenactors better than
> the other makers.  They
> make the most authentic Enfield out there (no damned
> Baddeley bands!), their
> 1842 Springfield smoothbore is superb (I have one
> and love it), and there
> are rumours that they have a Lorenz on the drawing
> board.

I've heard about the Lorenz too. Loyalist Arms was
talking about a better quality India Pattern Bess, if
they could get the quality control in place, perhaps
this year, as well as a 1st Model Bess and 1728 French
military musket for next year, provided the
India/Pakistan conflict doesn't end in a mushroom
cloud. They already have a 1790's pattern Sea Service
pistol that apparently has just come in, and was
listed in the "Specials" on their web site. Has anyone
seen one of these close-up? Palmetto Arms and Loyalist
are carrying the North & Cheney Pistol M1799 now.
   I wish the Japanese were still making the Bess. I
had one of their guns and the locks were great
sparkers. The main problem I hear with these now are
stocks that are wearing out and parts that need
replacement. Some have been real workhorses on the
reenactment field for decades and are showing the wear
and tear.
     What's available in the line of American swords
now? Most of the ones I've seen used are originals.
Something I just saw recently are Repro British lance
heads and butt cones, advertised in Shotgun News, from
an outfit, IMA, in New Jersey. They look a lot like
the naval boarding pike and were fairly reasonably
priced. Most of the Naval reenactors I see use closet
pole for whatever pikes they have. I wonder if there
isn't a source for good hardwood poles somewhere.

Y.H. & O.S.

Ted Yeatman
1st Md. Rifle BN.
Fell's Point Rifles

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

Hi Ted,

You might try

     www.bytheswordinc.com

for your lance hardware and pole.  They have a pole arms section which
has lance tips and 1 1/4 inch ash poles up to 84 inch length.  Their
shipping is kind of high, but they have a lot of stuff.

Unfortunately, though, they don't have any swords appropriate to the US
1812 army, and the price for the Brit. 1796 Light Dragoon saber is WAY
TOO HIGH!

Hope that this is some help!

Regards,

Bob Dorian
Surgeon & Engineer

Bribery is good. Bribery works ...
:)

> also,
>
>     A large "Thank You" to Corporal Wattie (IMUC),
>     the fruit platter was fabulous!
>
>
> (You had to be there!)
>
>
> A Great event, Huzzah to all who made the
> Battle of Stoney Creek Weekend happen.

Thanks for the tip on the poles. Have passed this
along
You might find this web site of interest for those on
the U.S. side of the border, if not the Canadan side.
http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/


Y.H. & O.S.

Ted Yeatman
1st Md. Rifle Bn.
Fell's Point Rifles

--- dancingbobd@... wrote:
> Hi Ted,
>
> You might try
>
>     www.bytheswordinc.com
>
> for your lance hardware and pole.  They have a pole
> arms section which
> has lance tips and 1 1/4 inch ash poles up to 84
> inch length.  Their
> shipping is kind of high, but they have a lot of
> stuff.
>
> Unfortunately, though, they don't have any swords
> appropriate to the US
> 1812 army, and the price for the Brit. 1796 Light
> Dragoon saber is WAY
> TOO HIGH!
>
> Hope that this is some help!
>
> Regards,
>
> Bob Dorian
> Surgeon & Engineer
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over
> the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North
> America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS
> of square miles...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

Dear List,

Having followed the elements on the "Flank" company story I thought the
following might provide something of a basic overview of what developed between
1808 and 1813 in the Upper Canada militia story.



With the threat of war with the United States looming in 1808, the military
authorities and Upper Canada Provincial Legislature adopted a formalized system
whereby the Upper Canada "Embodied" militias were established.  Part of the
legislation included the following relevant passages.

  MILITIA ACT 1808

ARTICLE III:

Every male 16-60 years old and capable of bearing arms was to be enrolled.

Fines for not enrolling 10/- (ten shillings)

No one over 50 years old to be called upon unless in time of war.



ARTICLE V

Each Commanding officer was to call out the Regiment or Battalion for review on
the 4th June (except where the 4th is a Sunday, whereupon the muster to take
place on the 5th)

Fines for not attending, Officers 40/-, NCO's and Privates 10/-



ARTICLE VII

Captains to review their companies 2 to 4 times a year to inspect the arms and
to hold an exercise.

Fines for not attending, Officers 40/-, NCO's and Privates 10/-



ARTICLE VIII

In time of war, the militia was to be called out and marched anywhere in the
Province.

Fines for not turning out, Officers £50/-/- (fifty Pounds) and loss of
commission, NCO's and Privates £20/-/- or Goal for 6-12 months.

Exept for those proved sick or absent with leave.

Militiamen not to serve for more than six months at a time

The militia was not to leave the Province, except: To go into Lower Canada if it
was invaded and required assistance to repel the invader.  In hot pursuit of an
enemy invader, To destroy enemy vessels or buildings to be used in preparing an
invasion. To pre-empt an enemy attack.



ARTICLE X

Regiments were to have between 8-10 companies

Companies to have between 20-50 Privates

Field Officers to be 1 Colonel, 1 Lt Col, 1 Major

Companies to have 1 Captain, 1 Lieutenant, 1 Ensign



ARTICLE XI

Each Regiment or Battalion was to have 1 Adjutant, 1 Quartermaster

The Captain to fix upon the number of Sergeants needed



ARTICLE XII

Where there were not enough men to form a Regiment or Battalion, units of
Independent Companies were to be established with 20-50 men and 1 Captain, 1
Lieutenant, 1 Ensign to each company.

Independent Companies were to be joined at will to create Battalions or attached
for service to existing Battalions or Regiments.



ARTICLE XIV

Each man was  to provide his own musket, rifle or gun, a minimum of 6 good
rounds of powder and ball, to be available at each review.

Fines for failure to comply, 5/- on review, 40/- in wartime, unless excused by
the Regimental Commanding Officer.



ARTICLE XXXII

Each militia unit was to be called out for action for a maximum of 6 months,
assuming it was capable of being relieved by fresh detachments.



ARTICLE XXXIII

Where no replacement was immediately available, ballot lots were to be drawn
from the remainder of the unused militia to replace the number of the detachment
on service.





By March 1812, the likelihood of war was now so high that new measures were
taken to replace the obviously ineffective militia system with one that would
provide for the establishment of what were designated as "Flank" companies.



These would then constitute a cadre of better trained men that could be called
out first in the event of hostilities and then used as NCO's for the remaining
companies if the entire "Embodied" militia were called out.  Some of the
relevant pieces of this new legislation included the following:







MILITIA ACT 1812



ARTICLE IV

In districts where militia regiments had 5-10 companies, 2 companies were to be
titled "Flank" companies, with 20-100 Privates in each company.



ARTICLE VIII

The two flank companies in each Regiment or battalion were not to consist of
more than 1/3 of the strength of each Regiment or Battalion.  The men for the
flank companies were to be selected from men between 18-50 years old.  Any
deficiency of numbers to be made up by ballot from the general body between the
ages of 18-45 (excluding those men with dependents and who were the sole support
for their family).



ARTICLE XI

Flank company Captains were to call out their company for training at least 6
times a month until fully trained and thereafter once a month. During peacetime,
the remaining Embodied companies were to be called out for drill at least 4
times per year, and in the event of hostilities, once a month.



ARTICLE XIV

Flank companies of each Regiment or Battalion were to be called out first.



ARTICLE XXXV

After 5 months of being called out with a detachment in the field, the
Commanding Officer was to select by ballot 1/3 of the overall regiment remaining
or a number equal to 1/3 of the serving detachment and at the end of 6 months,
the newly selected group would then replace 1/3 of the original detachment who
will be selected by lot.  At the end of 7 and 8 months, this process was to be
repeated to relieve all of the original unit.  The replacements to be inducted
for training not less than 8 days previous to the date they were to relieve the
original detachment.





Unfortunately, the establishment of the "Flank" companies did not meet with
universal support and in some areas of the Province was a cause for some
hostility.





14 April 1812

Lt Col Nichol to Aneas Shaw, Adjutant General of Militia at York

"... while however I am using my utmost exertions and discretion to carry into
effect the intentions of His Honor Major General Brock, I feel that I shall
require the countenance and support of the Executive Government to enable me to
check those habits of insubordination which I am sorry to say have been but too
prevalent in this part of the Province-I  do not mean to attach the smallest
blame to the men-on the contrary I must say that they are exceedingly well
disposed-but some of the Ancient Officers have conducted themselves in such a
manner as to make it imperative on me to exhibit charges against them. so that
when I yield up my command to a successor I shall deliver over to him a well
regulated Regiment-and not an unruly mob."

(RG8/C3231/VOL688A/P40)





27 July 1812

Col Talbot  to Maj Gen Brock

Col Talbot was at Long Point, seeking to recruit 100 volunteers from the Norfolk
Militia to go to the Detroit area.  Talbot pressured about 60 men into going and
then used a ballot to induct the remaining 40.  BUT.

". when I reached the ground from whence the detachment was to march I found a
large assembly of the farmers with their women, who upon my approach addressed
me by declaring their men should not march.  I then ordered the party to march
when about half obey'd and after proceeding a short distance, the men fell out,
all but about 20, who continued their march and those few appeared unwilling. 
Therefore I thought it most prudent to allow those few to return as I could not
flatter myself with any material benefit that would result from their weak and
uncertain assistance. Major Chambers is at this place [Oxford] with the flank
companies of the Oxford Militia, Lt Col Bostwick they have generally
volunteered, there are about60 Rank and File, but I confess I am not disposed to
place much reliance on their offers or services. Middlesex might furnish about
60 men but from Lt Col Bostwick's information that those of the Delaware and
Westminster had sent a petition to Gen'l Hull for protection. In fact, my dear
General, the prospect is dismal unless there is some other resource that I am
not acquainted with."

(RG8/C3231/VOL688a/P153a)





Despite this, Brock was publicly putting on a brave face and issuing Militia
General Orders praising the militia





".York, 25 May 1812,

The very satisfactory report made. of the spirit and zeal manifested by the men
in volunteering their services in the Flank companies has afforded His Honor the
most lively gratification and confirmed the opinion which he was always disposed
to entertain of their determination to defend bravely their country and in
imitation of their veteran fathers service by deeds, the ardent loyalty they
have so often expressed."

(RG8/C3231/VOL668a/P50)





While at the same time looking for a way of replacing the Flank company system.



Orders to Col Lethbridge , Montreal, 10 July 1812

". proceed by the most direct route and with the least possible delay to
Kingston.  You are directed to call upon all the Colonels and Commanding
officers of Corps of Militia on the line from Kingston to Cornwall and to
ascertain from the report of their officers and by an inspection of the Militia
as far as the time and circumstances will admit, the real effective state of the
Militia of the Province, their numbers, apparent loyalty and their disposition
towards forming themselves into Select Corps to be embodied for permenant
service."

(RG8/C3231/VOL688a/P103



By the following March, this revised system of establishing the first full-time
volunteer militia force came into effect with the new "Incorporated" militia.







MILITIA ACT 1813



ARTICLE V

Articles IV, VIII, AND XI of the 1812 legislation were repealed and the Flank
company system  was scrapped.



ARTICLE VI

The "Embodied" militia was to be re-formed into regiments of 8-10 companies,
each with 20-50 privates.

Field Officers to be 1 Colonel, 1 Lt Colonel, 1 Major

Every regiment with less than 10 companies to have 1 Lt Colonel, 1 Major.

Each company to have 1 Captain, 1 Lieutenant, 1 Ensign



ARTICLE VIII

Each regiment was to have 1 Adjutant, 1 Quartermaster, 1 Sergeant Major, 1
Quartermaster Sergeant



ARTICLE IX

Every regiment was to be called out at least twice a year if necessary with
different sections gathering at different locations



ARTICLE X

The Government was to raise one or more full-time regiments to be styled
"Incorporated" Militia to serve during the term of the war with the United
states.



ARTICLE XI

During the war, no NCO or Private serving with the Incorporated Militia was to
be liable to be sued or arrested for a debt of less than £50/-/-. Goods,
chattels, land and tenements could not  be seized or sold.



ARTICLE XII

No serving NCO or Private was required to pay taxes, rates or assessments.  Nor
were they required to do mandatory labour on highways or to do duty as a parish
officer.



(For further details on the "Incorporated Militia" please refer to my article on
the unit at the Discriminating General website. )



I hope this clarifies some of what we are dealing with on the matter of the
organization of "Flank" companies  As to the uniform appropriate for this type
of unit, I thought we had covered that in a previous set of communications.

Regards Richard Feltoe













[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Richard,
Once again, very informative!
Something I never put together before because I never looked at the related
items together...
I find it interesting that, technically, in the early 19th cent. every man
in the Canadas from 16 to 60 HAD to own a gun of some description!
Ahh , the good old days!


Craig

Every male 16-60 years old and capable of bearing arms was to be enrolled.

Each man was  to provide his own musket, rifle or gun, a minimum of 6 good
rounds of powder and ball, to be available at each review.

Fines for failure to comply, 5/- on review, 40/- in wartime, unless excused
by the Regimental Commanding Officer.

--- In WarOf1812@y..., BritcomHMP@a... wrote:
>
> The Austrians had Noble Guard units in which one had to be an
aristo in order
> to be a private The Arceren (SP?) Traubenten and Hungarian Noble
Guards. Most
> of the 'privates' in these units were regimental commanders and the
officers
> were generals and Field Marshals as I recall. So the units never
appeared as
> units on the field though their members did.
>
> Cheers

To the best of my recollection from a conversation I had with one of
the Russians at 1990 Waterloo, allowing for the fact that his English
was better than my non-existant Russian, I recall him telling me
about a Russian unit, The Preobrazensky Guards, where the rank and
file were all from the nobility. I'd love to hear further on this
from the scholars and other idiot savants in the hobby.
Cheers,
Fred Fishell

--- In WarOf1812@y..., Tod And Sharon Creasey <t_s.creasey@s...>
wrote:
> The Battalion d'Orléans, like many militias was a combination
civil
>defense force and social club, drilling twice a week and then
>attending social functions after. There were 5 companies,

Don't forget that the bataillon also had a band which one account
says that on January 8, 1815 after seeing that the battle was won
struck up with le Marseille. The US band responded with Yankee Doodle.



>In the south Charles Piquet and his guys do the
>Grenadiers and we do the Companie Francs here in the north.

We're expanding to represent the entire bataillon now. We just got
our copy of French artillery drill, so we may unveil that in January
if we're ready. We've got a few guys interested in portraying other
companies, and hope to have a musician or two.



>Much of the Companie Francs were recent immigrants to the United
>States but they were really  Creole Americans rather than French

Actually, recent immigrants would still be considered French as
creole means born in the colonies. But the bataillon did have a large
number of creoles.



>some former Imperial soldiers served in the unit but the numbers in
1815 who were Napoleonic veterans would have been very small -
possibly none.

Captain Hudry's men served some of the guns during the battle and his
diary mentions that many of his men had received their
artillery training in Napoleon's army. Don't forget that this unit
along with Lacoste's Regiment and the 7th and 44th US held their own
against the British on the night of December 23rd in the open,
something not usually accomplished by other militia units.



>The unit existed well into the 1850s

Benjamin Buisson, a Legion of Honor winner at Waterloo, commanded
French speaking men in "splendid uniforms" at Fort Jackson as the
Union Navy ran past to take New Orleans. He also published a French
drill manual in 1861 which they used.



> As far as what is becoming our camp impression
>Under what conditions we are not sure

I'm not really sure on this one either, but the US camp at New
Orleans was supplied on an almost daily basis from New Orleans which
was only five miles away. Some say their well fed state versus the
British diet helped swing moral. One book also claims that two of the
captains of the bataillon were business associates of Dominique Youx
and company (aka: privateers/pirates) which might indicate access to
adequate supplies as the Baratarians were able to supply Jackson's
entire army with shot, flints, and powder.

It's been a bit like putting a puzzle together to come up with
information on this unit. Paul Pecquet, an anscestor of mine, shows
up on their role in the 1850's. We've even come across some ACW era
photos of what they may have looked like at Fort Jackson. They
certainly seem to have been a colorful unit, but what else would you
expect from New Orleans and the French.


Charles Pecquet
le bataillon d'Orleans

Richard,

thank you for this. As one other has said, it is VERY informative. As
far as the uniform goes, we had only discussed coat & facings
colours; never plumes. Plumes are the only question mark I still have
about the Lincoln uniform. I am leaning toward the white over red
though, that is for sure. Thanks again.

Calvin Arnt.
1rst Reg't, Lincoln Militia. Crooks' Coy, Flank Company.

i was wondering why were pioneers and cavalry farriers the only troops
allowed to sport beards in wellingtons army?
was there a reason or regulations or some sort of work related thing?
was this the same in the north & south armies in the american civil war?
were both british officers and american officers allowed to choose if they
wanted to or not or were they subject to the same regulations?

and finally just a quickie....
  could anyone give me a uk supplier of flintlock and blackpowder weapons for
re-enactors?
take care
nick uk

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nick,

Which UK unit are you with?

Peter Catley

-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Wash [mailto:bomberb17@...]
Sent: 05 June 2002 20:38
To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WarOf1812] new thread

i was wondering why were pioneers and cavalry farriers the only troops
allowed to sport beards in wellingtons army?
was there a reason or regulations or some sort of work related thing?
was this the same in the north & south armies in the american civil war?
were both british officers and american officers allowed to choose if they
wanted to or not or were they subject to the same regulations?

and finally just a quickie....
  could anyone give me a uk supplier of flintlock and blackpowder weapons for
re-enactors?
take care
nick uk

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

lieutenant assistant surgeon with the 4th coy,1st batt,2nd queens regt.
are you in a uk regt?
nick

-------Original Message-------

From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
Date: 05 June 2002 21:01:28
To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] new thread

Nick,

Which UK unit are you with?

Peter Catley

-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Wash [mailto:bomberb17@...]
Sent: 05 June 2002 20:38
To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [WarOf1812] new thread

i was wondering why were pioneers and cavalry farriers the only troops
allowed to sport beards in wellingtons army?
was there a reason or regulations or some sort of work related thing?
was this the same in the north & south armies in the american civil war?
were both british officers and american officers allowed to choose if they
wanted to or not or were they subject to the same regulations?

and finally just a quickie....
could anyone give me a uk supplier of flintlock and blackpowder weapons for
re-enactors?
take care
nick uk

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

just a Moderator housekeeping note: the "subject" is useful in searching in
the archives, so should identify concisely what the thread is going to be
about.  In this case, looks like Nick wants to talk about "beards -
British..." and "gunpowder sources - U.K."

Jim Yaworsky
Moderator


>From: "Nick Wash" <bomberb17@...>
>Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
>To: "WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com" <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [WarOf1812] new thread
>Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:37:52 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time)
>
>i was wondering why were pioneers and cavalry farriers the only troops
>allowed to sport beards in wellingtons army?
>was there a reason or regulations or some sort of work related thing?
>was this the same in the north & south armies in the american civil war?
>were both british officers and american officers allowed to choose if they
>wanted to or not or were they subject to the same regulations?
>
>and finally just a quickie....
>  could anyone give me a uk supplier of flintlock and blackpowder weapons
>for
>re-enactors?
>take care
>nick uk
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

Moderator here.  I just checked out the Stoney Creek photos on the Group's
site at Yahoo, and I must say I was surprised at the
recent(?) improvements from Yahoo on the way this works.  Now, you can go to
an "album" and hit "screenshow" and the pictures all pop up on the screen
for you one at a time without further monkeying around.  And there's lots of
pictures in both the Stoney Creek and Longwoods "albums".

You do have to be a Yahoo member to be able to access this part of the
group's records, however.  It is free but you have to go through a
"subscribe" routine that requires you to pick a "yahoo" identity and
establish a password for yourself, and then you have to "sign in" under this
persona.  Why does Yahoo want this?  Conspiracy theories galore suggest
themselves, but perhaps it's as simple as enabling yahoo to sell ads for
more money 'cause they can prove they have a larger "membership".

Jim Yaworsky



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

Hi Nick
I have sent an email to our surgeon for that address you asked for ,
unfortunately I did not get to see him over the weekend as a friend's car broke
down while they were going off for the weekend and I helped them limp home ,
then ran her mum back to her home in Essex , hopefully he will reply soon .
Glen Robinson , commander of the 42nd is the best known of the local
re-enactment weapons dealers , he can be contacted at CARRYARMS@... he also
lives here in Kent , so it is probably not that far away , from you . And you
can easily find him at many of the UK re-enactment events .
Hey Peter , exactly why do we get away with our designer stubble , you can
hardly call mine a beard yet :>)
I heard that as the others break camp and have their cleaning up and " Fluffing
around " to do , us pioneers have to move off towards the next area and start
clearing that away when we arrive , with our specialist weapons , after all we
do not want them to have to keep pestering the surgeons , especially when its
only cramp in their wrists , ( awaiting incoming barrage :>)  ) , as their tools
are hardly up for the job . ( pioneer joke ).


Chewie
unit commander
50th West Kent Regiment Re Enactment Unit
" not a good looking bunch , but devilish steady"
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Nick Wash
   To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 9:55 PM
   Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] new thread


   lieutenant assistant surgeon with the 4th coy,1st batt,2nd queens regt.
   are you in a uk regt?
   nick

   -------Original Message-------

   From: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
   Date: 05 June 2002 21:01:28
   To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] new thread

   Nick,

   Which UK unit are you with?

   Peter Catley

   -----Original Message-----
   From: Nick Wash [mailto:bomberb17@...]
   Sent: 05 June 2002 20:38
   To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: [WarOf1812] new thread

   i was wondering why were pioneers and cavalry farriers the only troops
   allowed to sport beards in wellingtons army?
   was there a reason or regulations or some sort of work related thing?
   was this the same in the north & south armies in the american civil war?
   were both british officers and american officers allowed to choose if they
   wanted to or not or were they subject to the same regulations?

   and finally just a quickie....
   could anyone give me a uk supplier of flintlock and blackpowder weapons for
   re-enactors?
   take care
   nick uk

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


   The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
   square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
   square miles...

   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



   The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
   square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
   square miles...

   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


   The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
square miles...

   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 6/5/2002 2:37:54 PM Central Daylight Time,
bomberb17@... writes:


> i was wondering why were pioneers and cavalry farriers the only troops
> allowed to sport beards in wellingtons army?
> was there a reason or regulations or some sort of work related thing?


Because they were supposed to rise before their fellows to ensure wood was
gathered, etc., in other words they had a job to do while their fellows were
supposed to be shaving.

So it was regulation BECAUSE it was a work related thing!

> was this the same in the north & south armies in the american civil war?
> were both british officers and american officers allowed to choose if they
> wanted to or not or were they subject to the same regulations?
>
>

Now that becomes a very big question. Basically officers were supposed to
maintain standards better than the men, after all a hairy officer complaining
about unshaven men would be a bit incongruous to say the least! What
certainly happened on campaign was that standards were let go and most
soldiers of all ranks could do what they liked. NOTE I am NOT referring to
the Napoleonic Wars here but to the Crimea and later. The rule in the Crimea
was supposed to be that the chin was to be kept clean but a mustache,
muttonchops and neck hair was permitted. Photographic evidence shows that
full beards were certainly the norm. For the Napoleonic/1812 period full
luxuriant growths were NOT permitted on any but pioneers, perhaps a 2 to 3
week growth or longer if one was on the march during a campaign. However at
battles like Waterloo where the troops were only a couple of days out of
their encampments you can be certain that regulations were followed.

Cheers

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]