-=-I felt sometimes like someone was saying, "The sky is red today," and
I'd look at the blue sky and it would be obvious to me that they were
wearing red-tinted glasses and didn't know it.-=-

My kids have always seen the blue sky, so the typical parents-of-
schoolkids comments baffle them, still.  They're stunned that a parent
could actually believe this or that, or actually believe whatever.  I
tell them there are billions of people that way.

Holly's leaving tomorrow to live with a family in England for several
weeks, and might go back there someday in the future.  She'll be
working informally as an au pair.  She'll be a tourist they're giving
spending money to.  But her "expertise" in the situation is that she
was unschooled, and has been analytical about what makes unschooling
work for many years.  She's been curious about how families operate
and what helps kids be confident and well behaved since she was old
enough to talk about it.   In unschooling and mindful parenting, she's
a native speaker.

I was reading about au pairs, and generally they're from another EU
country with a different primary language.  Holly's "different primary
language" is unschooling.

In March or April she'll live with another family with two young
girls, in Quebec for a while, and so she'll get to see other parts of
the country, live with non-American families (the family in Quebec has
a Belgian mom and east German dad, but the girls are speaking
English.  The family in England is not at all American. <g>  She's
visited only Americans living in England the last two times she was
there.     These are really good opportunities for Holly, and another
completely unforeseen benefit of unschooling, and of the fact that she
was interested in parenting at an age when school would have
discouraged any interest in or discussion of parenting, pretty  much.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've gotten good, over the years, at ignoring what isn't said right to
me. When you're active in a community and you speak out and get
involved, etc., there will be people who won't like you and they'll
badmouth you behind your back, so I accepted that and I really just let
it slide when I hear about it. Same with criticism of my children. "I"
know my kids. "I" know what they're really like. My kids didn't always
behave perfectly - they had to grow and learn like anybody else. But I
knew they were on a good path - their trajectory was good. Same with
myself - I screwed some things up along the way, didn't always live
perfectly up to my own standards. But I've been on a good path, too, and
part of that path is acceptance of not being perfect, of being a
learning human, not a finished product.

So - when someone criticizes your kids - why not take a good look at the
criticism. Don't take offense, put aside the defensive feelings. Just
look with eyes wide open at how much of it is true. Look at what the
source of the criticism is. Is it petty jealousy? Is it defensiveness on
their part that you're not doing things their way? Do they feel
threatened? Or, is there a teensy bit of truth in it? Are YOU worried
about the path your children are on? It is all right for the children
not to be perfect - if someone has picked up on some imperfection in
your child, it is okay to respond (even if just to yourself), "Yeah,
that's not the best thing about Johnny, but he's on the path to
improving in that area."

Sometimes other people think we're not really helping our kids do
better. They see us as lackadaisical rather than supportive. For
example, I had a daughter who would get very frustrated easily and have
little explosive meltdowns, when playing with friends. It wasn't cool -
not for her friends, but also not for her. It was something she was
working on and I was helping her, but that wasn't obvious to her friends
or their parents. I would never chastise her, which is what some parents
and their kids wanted to see. I'd comfort her and sometimes they would
think that was encouraging and rewarding her behavior. I had a few
parents say, "You need to make her stop that." Or they'd say, "You
should not let her get away with that." Sorry - but those were just
stupid comments by ignorant parents whose OWN kids didn't turn out all
that great, by the way.

I think this is a matter of confidence. I think the way to become
confident enough to handle criticism effectively (hearing it without
defensiveness, evaluating it, using what might be good information,
ignoring the rest) is to read and read and read about unschooling and
parenting and get such a deep understanding and sense of it that other
people's remarks just seem obviously off base.

I felt sometimes like someone was saying, "The sky is red today," and
I'd look at the blue sky and it would be obvious to me that they were
wearing red-tinted glasses and didn't know it.

-pam

-=- I'm disheartened because I have a feeling I'm going to be drifting
away from some friends that we have had for years just because I'm
choosing something other than the "norm".-=-

That happens.
If you look at it from the other side, though, if your friends will
only like you if you're neglectful and abusive of your children, it's
an easier choice.  :-/   I've lost some friends and kept some, but
they would've been gone from my life eventually anyway.

My youngest turned 18 three days ago.   All three of my children
really LIKE their parents, at 18, 20 and 23.  Not many parents have
that.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

thanks to the both of you for your support- I guess the thing that bothers me
the most is this is exactly why I don't want them in public school- Children
should be supported in their ventures especially their education.  I'm
disheartened because I have a feeling I'm going to be drifting away from some
friends that we have had for years just because I'm choosing something other
than the "norm".  I do plan on becoming active with the
unschooling/homeschooling community- I'm in the process of preparing ourselves
financially so I can quit my job, I can't wait to get out into that big world
everyday with my girls.

thanks again

--- In UnschoolingDiscussion@yahoogroups.com, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=- anyone heard of borderline  personality disorder? It was a
> nightmare to grow up with). So, for the moment, ...-=-
>
> It seems it's still nightmarish.  Can you move away?
>
> -=-But why do parents believe it is okay to talk about our  situation
> in that tone only to have their children repeat it?-=-
>
> #1, because it *is* okay.   Other people can talk about your
> situation.  You can't control that.
> #2, possibly because their kids are asking to stay home too, and the
> parents feel the need to glorify what they're doing and belittle what
> you're doing.
>
> Both those accounts are about an unschooling mom wanting to control
> other people.
>
> Consider telling your kids that some people are so convinced school is
> that only way that they get scared to even think about other things.
>
> Maybe, if you can, go to an unschooling conference so you can see
> other families and your kids can meet other unschooled kids.  Or a
> park day.  Or visit another family you meet online or something.
>
> If someone were a sex offender you probably wouldn't let them
> babysit.  If someone is being emotionally abusive to your children,
> don't let them babysit.  If another child is beating your kid with a
> stick, take him home and don't invite him back.  If another child is
> beating your child up with words and shame, take him home and don't
> invite him back.  Or talk to that other kid, or be right there to help
> steer the conversation.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

-=- anyone heard of borderline  personality disorder? It was a
nightmare to grow up with). So, for the moment, ...-=-

It seems it's still nightmarish.  Can you move away?

-=-But why do parents believe it is okay to talk about our  situation
in that tone only to have their children repeat it?-=-

#1, because it *is* okay.   Other people can talk about your
situation.  You can't control that.
#2, possibly because their kids are asking to stay home too, and the
parents feel the need to glorify what they're doing and belittle what
you're doing.

Both those accounts are about an unschooling mom wanting to control
other people.

Consider telling your kids that some people are so convinced school is
that only way that they get scared to even think about other things.

Maybe, if you can, go to an unschooling conference so you can see
other families and your kids can meet other unschooled kids.  Or a
park day.  Or visit another family you meet online or something.

If someone were a sex offender you probably wouldn't let them
babysit.  If someone is being emotionally abusive to your children,
don't let them babysit.  If another child is beating your kid with a
stick, take him home and don't invite him back.  If another child is
beating your child up with words and shame, take him home and don't
invite him back.  Or talk to that other kid, or be right there to help
steer the conversation.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have had this very same issue with my mom - she is very unsupportive
of unschooling, has told me I am damaging the kids, shakes her head
when it gets brought up while saying the "kids are missing out on
something they'll never get back", and criticizes them when she thinks
they don't know something she thinks they should.  It's pretty bad.
Up until now, I have simply refused to talk to her about homeschooling
(but she'll usually manage to get in a few comments anyways before I
remind her that it's not up for discussion) and when she's been around
the kids and I'm there, I immediately shut down any conversation that
she may start criticizing their knowledge.  However, she has babysat
the kids recently (therefore alone with them) and she's pulled out all
the stoppers - bribed them with money to do school worksheets that she
has, and then criticizing them pretty badly because they can't do it
(ie "this is 3 grade levels below where you're at...you should know
this").  When I heard that, I called her and angrily reminded her that
homeschooling is not up for discussion, and bribing/criticizing/
forcing worksheets is inappropriate and damaging, and if she wishes to
see the kids then that needs to stop.

It won't, however.  She is so certain that they are damaged because of
the homeschooling, she listens to no one.  (she is like this is every
other area of her life as well - anyone heard of borderline
personality disorder?  It was a nightmare to grow up with).  So, for
the moment, I am suspending using her as a babysitter because it's not
fair to the kids.  It's unfortunate, because there are fun things she
can do with them, but it's not worth it to them or me to put up with
the other stuff.

This doesn't necessarily give you any answers for what to do - but I
do empathize with feeling like the children are collateral in the "war
of unschooling" that some others like to wage.

Michele



On 30-Oct-09, at 12:41 PM, unschoolmom@... wrote:

> I need advice- my 4 year old is to begin unschooling (well I feel
> like she has been all along just to continue it now that she is
> "school-age")
> and friends of hers and the family's are bringing their criticism
> directly to her.
>
> how do I let my child know that "school" isn't the only place for
> children her age.  We've had numerous talks about schooling and our
> family's best interests with her included.  Yet when parents and her
> friends make comments to her, "well so-and-so is going to go to
> school, she(my daughter) HAS to stay home with mom instead"- it
> disgusts me that that is what is said to and in front of my child.
> What's so wrong with staying home with mom- and her sister for that
> matter?
>
> I am very strong in my front about scholing or unschooling my
> children and do not waiver in my beliefs no matter who I am speaking
> too.  But why do parents believe it is okay to talk about our
> situation in that tone only to have their children repeat it?  I
> never once say to my child so she can repeat it- you get to stay
> home instead of school- while they HAVE to go to school.  Because in
> my opinion nobody HAS to do anything.  We all have a choice whether
> it is recognized or not.
>
> How do I face this social dilema.  I am able to handle my end of the
> critism and defensive views from others who choose public school-
> but how do I let my little one, who has such a tender heart, know
> that she's not missing out on anything?  She's very social but does
> take every bit of negativity to heart.
>
> Has anyone else faced this dilemna with friends that not only do not
> homeschool but don't talk kindly about it either?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.  If you want to
be happy, practice compassion.  ~Dalai Lama

I need advice- my 4 year old is to begin unschooling (well I feel like she has
been all along just to continue it now that she is "school-age")
and friends of hers and the family's are bringing their criticism directly to
her.

how do I let my child know that "school" isn't the only place for children her
age.  We've had numerous talks about schooling and our family's best interests
with her included.  Yet when parents and her friends make comments to her, "well
so-and-so is going to go to school, she(my daughter) HAS to stay home with mom
instead"- it disgusts me that that is what is said to and in front of my child.
What's so wrong with staying home with mom- and her sister for that matter?

I am very strong in my front about scholing or unschooling my children and do
not waiver in my beliefs no matter who I am speaking too.  But why do parents
believe it is okay to talk about our situation in that tone only to have their
children repeat it?  I never once say to my child so she can repeat it- you get
to stay home instead of school- while they HAVE to go to school.  Because in my
opinion nobody HAS to do anything.  We all have a choice whether it is
recognized or not.

How do I face this social dilema.  I am able to handle my end of the critism and
defensive views from others who choose public school- but how do I let my little
one, who has such a tender heart, know that she's not missing out on anything? 
She's very social but does take every bit of negativity to heart.

Has anyone else faced this dilemna with friends that not only do not homeschool
but don't talk kindly about it either?

I remember my experiences reading as well growing up- and this post struck a
cord with me in relation to todays time.  It was pretty similiar in my house,
there was no interest in continuing something, reading, writing, math, etc if
you were "good" at it.  If I brought home straight A's- no attention was paid to
me, but rather my struggling sibling with C's.  We are a big family that reads
today.  I told my husband when I first got pregnant that I needed his help,
because I wanted our children to always enjoy reading but in my family it was
punishment- if you were in trouble it was common to hear "NO! go read in your
room" and all other privelidges were taken- so it was very negative to me,
reading was something I HAD to do when I was in trouble.

Getting read to aloud is still great, my girls are still young beginner readers,
yet I plan to always read daily out loud.  We take turns reading a book- this
way we all pick a book we would like to read, and everyone gets to hear it
whether they were originally interested in it or not- and usually 1/2 way in
everyone is hooked.

My husband and I have even reconnected this way- we used to (before time got
ahold of us) read a book together, taking turns reading outloud.  I think its
wonderful- and like you said, something that shouldn't end just because you know
how to do it- otherwise why do you learn in the first place?



--- In UnschoolingDiscussion@yahoogroups.com, Sanguinegirl83@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 10/26/2009 5:31:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> dezigna@... writes:
>
> <<<Also I expect to continue to read aloud to Jayn even  after she is
> reading
> fluently.>>>
>
>
>
> Wyl (10) has been reading since he was 5 and I still read  aloud to him. My
> husband, Dave, loves when I read aloud-we even make time when  he's out on
> the road for work to call him and have him listen on the phone while  we
> read our evening book. (We *just* finished the Harry Potter series last
> week-it took many months)
>
> I *love* reading aloud to just about anyone who will listen. I  love it so
> much, I wish I could make a career out of it (audio books). I  can remember
> my mother reading to me lots and lots before I could read fluently,  but I
> don't remember her reading at all to me once I had "gotten it". She also
> wouldn't buy me any of the books from the Scholastic catalog we'd get every
> month. She refused to buy them for me, because I "could read" but she kept
> begging my brother to pick books out for her to buy because he wasn't big on
> reading. I remember thinking I was getting punished for being a good and
> voracious reader.
>
> We have a neighbor in his 50's who is blind and loves being  read to. I
> know lots of elderly folks who enjoy having things read to them-even  the
daily
> paper. Tiny print and older eyes don't really get along well, plus  there
> is someone giving their full attention... Maybe we don't ever "outgrow"
> being read to...
>
> Peace,
> De
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I wish I could make a career out of it (audio books).================

I know someone who is paid to record written word to audio for
vision-impaired people. You might call around your local colleges to see if
there is a need.

Or contact the companies that record books and apply for a job :-)

Mary Ellen

I'd rephrase that to "Hopefully it won't start with Dick and Jane" ;-)

Although, I suppose there might be some children that would find books like that
worth reading.

Regards, Rina

--- In UnschoolingDiscussion@yahoogroups.com, "Ronnie" <hmsdragonfly@...> wrote:
Also, keep an open mind about what their reading might look like. It might start
not with Dick and Jane ....

In a message dated 10/26/2009 5:31:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
dezigna@... writes:

<<<Also I expect to continue to read aloud to Jayn even  after she is
reading
fluently.>>>



Wyl (10) has been reading since he was 5 and I still read  aloud to him. My
husband, Dave, loves when I read aloud-we even make time when  he's out on
the road for work to call him and have him listen on the phone while  we
read our evening book. (We *just* finished the Harry Potter series last
week-it took many months)

I *love* reading aloud to just about anyone who will listen. I  love it so
much, I wish I could make a career out of it (audio books). I  can remember
my mother reading to me lots and lots before I could read fluently,  but I
don't remember her reading at all to me once I had "gotten it". She also
wouldn't buy me any of the books from the Scholastic catalog we'd get every
month. She refused to buy them for me, because I "could read" but she kept
begging my brother to pick books out for her to buy because he wasn't big on
reading. I remember thinking I was getting punished for being a good and
voracious reader.

We have a neighbor in his 50's who is blind and loves being  read to. I
know lots of elderly folks who enjoy having things read to them-even  the daily
paper. Tiny print and older eyes don't really get along well, plus  there
is someone giving their full attention... Maybe we don't ever "outgrow"
being read to...

Peace,
De


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-=- They only know what children are like when they're forced to
learn.-=-

And "forced to learn" isn't what actually happens there, either.
When teachers of six year olds give one an "A" in reading, it doesn't
mean the kid can go home and read a recipe or the newspaper or the TV
Guide.  It means he (or very much more likely she) can parrot what's
been going on in class, choose from the limited word list in use in
the practice book, or sound out the one- and two-syllable words (which
won't have anything tricky) in the workbooks.

School reading and real reading aren't the same thing, but schools
don't like to tell parents that, or parents don't remember or figure
it out.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Oct 25, 2009, at 7:46 PM, unschoolers4 wrote:

> My biggest obstacle right now is being okay with my daughters
> showing absolutely no interest in learning how to read.

The message from school that children must be taught to read -- and
the earlier the better -- is accepted without question. People assume
educators understand how children learn but the truth is that they
don't. They only know what children are like when they're forced to
learn.

Just as children can't walk before they're developmentally ready,
children can't read before they're developmentally ready.

If educators ever knew that, they've forgotten. Their focus is on
doing what makes schools run thinking that's the same as doing what
helps kids learn. Schools need kids to read by 4th grade because
textbooks are an efficient way for one person to impart a chunk of
knowledge to 30 kids. If a child can't read on his own, if the
schools won't find other ways for them to learn, kids who can't read
by 4th grade become a burden and a huge expense. So educators (and
parents) get freaky about getting kids to read by 4th grade so
schools can run.

When that deadline is removed, when kids aren't limited to books to
learn from, then reading can blossom in its own time. Just as talking
and walking blossom in their own time: when the child is
developmentally ready.

Joyce

<<<<<It might start not with Dick and Jane >>>>>

Yes this is key. I have noticed that unschooling kids seem to learn to read
material that corresponds to their spoken vocabulary, rather than "at the
beginning" with the kind of material schools supply with beginning readers
in first grade.

Whenever we get a new installment of the Sisters Grimm series, usually the
day of publication, I sit in a chair and read it aloud until it is done.
This is generally following a couple of days of refreshing our memory of the
story by reading the earlier ones.

Also I expect to continue to read aloud to Jayn even after she is reading
fluently.

Jayn, just now 10 (wow!) has recently become a reader. Most of her reading
is from computer games and catalog descriptions of her favorite dolls.

Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

Living in Japan you must be exposed to a very different reading system. It
helped me a lot to think about the differences in reading in Japan and degrees
of illiteracy when my children weren't yet reading. When David was working at
the Nichibunken institute in Kyoto another professor gave a lecture on Japanese
literacy and how, because it is a written language with 50,000 characters/words,
it is unlikely that one person will be able to recognize every piece of the
literate puzzle that comes along. Children in school learn some 1000
characters/words to start off. It is very different from a base of 26
characters, and a very different structure. And that's just kanji. You have
hiragana and katakana to add to that mix.

  I was totally illiterate when we lived in Japan. I could recognise the kanji on
the bus to get home. The one to get to central Kyoto was easy, it was the only
one that came to the bus stop. I found places to go by asking people I knew. I
talked to people. I carried around a translator. I'd point to the plastic food
in the window at a restaurant to order if the menu didn't have pictures.  I
negotiated with the world in a very different way to how I negotiate in an area
with English subtitles telling me whats on offer from place to place.

When my son was 8 he wasn't interested in reading. He wasn't ready to read, so
it was good that disinterest was part of the picture. Maybe that's the case for
most people, interest and ability come together at much the same time. Maybe
not. I do know some frustrated not yet readers. Simon didn't read until 12. And
his reading skills are growing quite quickly. I imagine it won't be long that
you won't be able to tell the difference between his reading skills and his
sister's who started reading at 6. Reading takes more than desire to make it
happen. The neural pathways have to be open, there has to be a kind of
development in place, otherwise it is all about frustration and a sense of
failure. Once all those pieces are in place, it's like riding a bike, it just
goes, it just all comes together.

Breathe, relax, and enjoy. Oh, and get books on tape or cd or mp3. Simon came to
prefer Stephen Fry's readings of Harry Potter to mine. And it certainly gave him
access to books that he wanted. Still does. He wanders around with the ipod in
his pocket and listens to Terry Pratchett or J.K. Rowlings or Eoin Colfer a lot.

Schuyler




________________________________
From: unschoolers4 <unschoolers4@...>
To: UnschoolingDiscussion@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 25 October, 2009 23:46:28
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] New Member-Hello!


Hello, my name is Jeska.  My husband and I have been unschooling our two
daughters, ages 6 and 8 since they were born, I guess you could say.  :)  We
live in Japan, and I am president of our homeschooling group on the military
base where my husband is stationed.  I wanted to join this group because I am
the only unschooler in our group here, so things can get lonely.  Especially
when all my daughter's friends start "school at home" in September, and I'm
finding myself having those thoughts of "well, maybe we could just do a little
of this or that".  It's hard to stay strong when you are the only one.  :)  I am
firm in my resolve however, constantly working at unschooling myself.
My biggest obstacle right now is being okay with my daughters showing absolutely
no interest in learning how to read.  They are both very bright girls, my 8 year
old has a vocabulary at her command that even surprises us sometimes.  But just
to give an example, I asked her one day if she wanted to learn how to read, she
said "no, I want to be one of those adults that can't read, what are they called
again?", I said "illiterate? ", she said "yes, that's it, I want to be
illiterate"!  I mean, what are you supposed to do with that?  :^)  Of course I
don't want to push,  and it's not like they don't love books and reading,
because they do.  If my throat could handle it, they would ask me to read to
them from sunup to sundown!
So, just hoping to get some encouragement and support from a community of
like-minded people, can't wait to read some of the other posts.  I apologize for
the long intro!
Jeska


__
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>> Spoken word (books read by professionals, and story-telling, and
plays done with several characters) is easy to find now, on the
internet. If you can see YouTube (I think you should be able to)
there's a whole Sesame Street channel that's adding more things every
week.

Check out http://storynory.com/ on the web or Itunes for great stories
when your voice gives out!

Anne


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gaming magazines were big with my kids.  Whatever your daughter's
interests are, maybe find her websites or something with lots of video
or pictures, but there will be words here and there.   Probably these
days buying magazine subscriptions isn't as needed as it once was, for
kids' hobbies.

Sandra

> Hello, my name is Jeska.

Welcome!

> But just to give an example, I asked her one day if she wanted to
> learn how to read, she said "no, I want to be one of those adults
> that can't read, what are they called again?", I
> said "illiterate?", she said "yes, that's it, I want to be
> illiterate"! I mean, what are you supposed to do with that? :^)

Too funny! I think what you are supposed to do with that is just enjoy the wit
of your very clever daughter! She found an entertaining way to tell you to chill
out. :-)

I agree with everything Sandra said about reading. Also, keep an open mind about
what their reading might look like. It might start not with Dick and Jane but
with the signs you pass regularly, cereal boxes, video games, board games, their
favorite Web sites, letters from Grandma, "Some assembly required" instruction
sheets, nature magazines, cookbooks, and so on. Words are all around them, and
your kids will be incredibly creative about discovering them.

Ronnie
mom to MJ (17) and Chloe (15)

-=-I asked her one day if she wanted to learn how to read, she said
"no, I want to be one of those adults that can't read, what are they
called again?", I said "illiterate?", she said "yes, that's it, I want
to be illiterate"! I mean, what are you supposed to do with that? :^) =-

They'll learn to read gradually and naturally, each in her own way.
Asking them isn't a good idea.  People don't learn to read because
they want to.  Many young children want to learn to read but they're
just not ready yet.

My daughter had a large vocabulary when she finally read at 11, and
the second thing she read was a Stephen King novella.

-=-If my throat could handle it, they would ask me to read to them
from sunup to sundown!-=-

Spoken word (books read by professionals,  and story-telling, and
plays done with several characters) is easy to find now, on the
internet.   If you can see YouTube (I think you should be able to)
there's a whole Sesame Street channel that's adding more things every
week.

-=-So, just hoping to get some encouragement and support from a
community of like-minded people-=-

Yes on the support to unschool; we can help you see what will help
unschooling work, definitely.   It's not "a support group" so much as
a discussion-of-unschooling list.

http://sandradodd.com/reading
Lots of reading stories and discussions are collected there, from this
list and a few other places.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello, my name is Jeska.  My husband and I have been unschooling our two
daughters, ages 6 and 8 since they were born, I guess you could say.  :)  We
live in Japan, and I am president of our homeschooling group on the military
base where my husband is stationed.  I wanted to join this group because I am
the only unschooler in our group here, so things can get lonely.  Especially
when all my daughter's friends start "school at home" in September, and I'm
finding myself having those thoughts of "well, maybe we could just do a little
of this or that".  It's hard to stay strong when you are the only one.  :)  I am
firm in my resolve however, constantly working at unschooling myself.
My biggest obstacle right now is being okay with my daughters showing absolutely
no interest in learning how to read.  They are both very bright girls, my 8 year
old has a vocabulary at her command that even surprises us sometimes.  But just
to give an example, I asked her one day if she wanted to learn how to read, she
said "no, I want to be one of those adults that can't read, what are they called
again?", I said "illiterate?", she said "yes, that's it, I want to be
illiterate"!  I mean, what are you supposed to do with that?  :^)  Of course I
don't want to push,  and it's not like they don't love books and reading,
because they do.  If my throat could handle it, they would ask me to read to
them from sunup to sundown!
So, just hoping to get some encouragement and support from a community of
like-minded people, can't wait to read some of the other posts.  I apologize for
the long intro!
Jeska

-=-
It robs them of the opportunity to do those things out of joy and
desire. It destroys their chance of having learned them on their own.=-

I meant to include a link with that.


http://sandradodd.com/r/deeper

There's more here, but here's part of it:

==========

The Deeper Effect of a Child Learning to Read: Confidence

a Mom in a discussion online: A homeschooling friend has shared that
she feels we need to teach the basics then unschool them.
Joyce Fetteroll:Your friend is wrong. If she's never experienced a
child who learned to read or do math without instruction then of
course she's not going to be able to imagine it's possible.

Sandra Dodd: If what the friend is imagining is that a child who reads
will then acquire all the other knowledge on her own, that's not the
worst vision in the world If what the friend is hoping is the child
will get past the point that the mom worries about getting in trouble
or failing entirely, I can understand her reasoning.

-=-We are also making an effort to find somewhere interesting to go
each week that will broaden their education and interests.-=-

This is a good idea.

-=-I admit I still do a few formal things with them during the week
and have certain expectations on them such as expecting them to do
some form of writing each day, some form of reading each day and some
form of math each day. These can all be done in line with their
interests or I will assign something if they can't come up with
something for themselves.-=-

It robs them of the opportunity to do those things out of joy and
desire.  It destroys their chance of having learned them on their own.

-=I also limit their electronic entertainment as I find that when this
is not available they come up with so many more creative pursuits and
interests that I rarely have to guide or direct them at all.-=-

If you didn't have a house you would probably manage to find a
creative place to sleep.  But the purpose of unschooling is learning,
not control.  The purpose of pursuits and interests isn't to find the
second best.   You will never need to guide or direct your children at
all if you engage in learning *with them* every day, all the time.
You won't need to fear "electronic entertainment" (do you call books
"paper entertainment"?) if you would look into it some more and see
how much is really involved.

Recommendations that will lead people away from unschooling aren't
good for the discussion.

The joy you could have with your children now and in the future is
beyond most people's imagination.  I had no idea, when I started 18
years ago how fantastic it could be.  I had no idea, no models, for
the kind of relationship I have with my kids who are nearly-18,
nearly-21 and 23.

If anyone on this list says "Oh; no problem" or "good job" to a
description of limiting life and teaching "formal things" and
assigning writing and math, they will be assisting you down the path
that leads away from unschooling to "just whatever."

Perhaps there is a "just whatever" discussion list, but this isn't it.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wont say I am completely THERE yet but some of the things that my boys 10 and
12 have shown an interest in include.... Making fossils, Freezing insects,
blogging, building things, measuring things, working out my taxes with me.

Other things which they have shown an interest in include making a science fair
project, making a history fair project, art and painting studies, sculpture,
photography and sport.

I admit I still do a few formal things with them during the week and have
certain expectations on them such as expecting them to do some form of writing
each day, some form of reading each day and some form of math each day. These
can all be done in line with their interests or I will assign something if they
can't come up with something for themselves.

I also limit their electronic entertainment as I find that when this is not
available they come up with so many more creative pursuits and interests that I
rarely have to guide or direct them at all.

We are also making an effort to find somewhere interesting to go each week that
will broaden their education and interests.

So I am far from a perfect unschooler but I do take a relaxed interest based
approach as much as I possible can. Incidentally I actually prefer not to wear
any label as we are constantly evolving and growing in our homeschooling
journey.

Regards

Nina

--- In UnschoolingDiscussion@yahoogroups.com, TheFadels@... wrote:
>
> This subject just brought to mind something related but a bit off of the
> subject
>
> I am hoping to get some of your thoughts and ideas about what are some
> things to do when you see your child(14 boy) not interested in doing anything 
that
> relates to academics or learning anything
>
> He will complete work that I give him but not with heart. I have always  seen
> that he has a high interest level in what he learns because he has always
> chosen the material.
>
> Now all of a sudden he says he is not interested in anything just having  fun
> and no learning is not "fun"
>
> I am sure many go through this but it ils my first time with the challenge.
>
> Hope to get some good ideas, what do you  think????
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Please disregard this and the previous email sent from this email address
entitled - hey~
Do NOT go to this website I don't know what it is or endorse it in anyway.
I have my first virus.  Apologies to everyone for this rude inconvenience.

Please enjoy the rest of your day.
Teresa




________________________________
From: Teresa <teresacommliving@...>
To: mummy@...; debbiestannard@...; barbstrange@...;
krajancic@...; miridunnmacdonald@...; tamsinb@...;
teebuck.vacation@...; teresacommliving@...;
thedolphinscove@yahoogroups.com; thomsonwright@...; tressym@...;
lvulmer@...; unschoolingdiscussion@yahoogroups.com;
unschooling_canada@yahoogroups.com; unschooling-ed@googlegroups.com;
unschoolingourselves@yahoogroups.com; mushko@...;
velvettouch@...; gudrunvs@...; vydra@...;
waldorfhomeschoolers@yahoogroups.com; wildrosepagansociety@yahoogroups.com;
wolf.maul@...; wrightus@...
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 11:55:29 AM
Subject: hey~


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This list sure did come alive recenlty!

On Sep 11, 2009, at 8:57 PM, luvthesoap wrote:

> All my son wanted to do was to play video games & get on facebook.

Undoubtedly he's deschooling. If those two were limited in the past,
either by you or by time constraints, before he can let go he needs
to fill up on them and needs to feel like if he turns something off
he can go back  to it as soon as he wants to.

Also read Sandra's page and the links on deschooling:
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

There's also way more to videogames and Facebook than what you're
assuming. Have you done either? That will make them easier to
describe *and*, even better, give you a connection with your son.

> he did go to the fitness center today & work out for an hour.
> Tuesdays he has voice lessons, which went well according to his
> instructor. We also went to Co-Op Thursday. The classes he takes
> are Guitar, Photography, & PE.
>


That's a lot for writing down purposes.

Are you providing too much to your co-op? Or are they requiring too
much? Or are you expecting learning to look a certain way? All of
those will get in the way of his learning. You may want to rethink
and reinvestigate what you're doing.

This isn't a good forum for details of a state's (or co-op's) rules
since it's an international list. Try:

http://sandradodd.com/world#us

Also try typing your state into the search at:
http://familyrun.ning.com/groups

to see if someone made a group.

Schools are constrained to teaching methods which provide feedback
that something is sticking long enough to be tested. The feedback is
not part of learning. The feedback, in many cases, not only
interferes with learning but prevents schools from using methods that
are natural to the way humans learn. You might try reading:

"Products" of Education
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/products

Why You Can't Let Go
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk


Joyce

-=-The lessons go alright, but on the times he's home, he's basically
doing nothing.-=-

Lessons aren't unschooling.

-=- All my son wanted to do was to play video games & get on facebook.
-=-

Video games and facebook aren't "nothing."

http://sandradodd.com/videogames
http://sandradodd.com/focus
http://sandradodd.com/obsessions/feedpassions
http://sandradodd.com/new

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This week is the first week on unschooling. All my son wanted to do was to play
video games & get on facebook. Well, he did go to the fitness center today &
work out for an hour. Tuesdays he has voice lessons, which went well according
to his instructor. We also went to Co-Op Thursday. The classes he takes are
Guitar, Photography, & PE. The lessons go alright, but on the times he's home,
he's basically doing nothing. We are enrolled in an umbrella school & I'm having
a hard time writing down what he does all day. Any suggestions?
Betty Porter in KY

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***Deb Lewis

Deb Lewis***

Apparently, we are two. <g>

***people gradually add to the details of their knowledge every day that
they live.***

Not Middle ages stuff but we talked to some friends who are coming for a visit
and asked if they'd like to go to the atlatl competition.  They didn't know what
that was.  I think they would have heard the word battleaxe before, (and now
I'll have to ask<g>) and pike (might have first thought of the fish, though -
fisher mans, both) but had not heard "atlatl".

***people gradually add to the details of their knowledge every day that
they live.***

Touristy things are successful, tours of historic homes, atlatl competitions,
ghost towns... because people are curious.


Don't really need to sign this, do I?<g>









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***A battleaxe is a cranky old woman and a pike is a fish.***

And the old woman and the fish were named after the weapons. <g>

I've never caught a pike but I held one once, that someone else caught,  a live
one,  and I let it go again.  I got in trouble for that because in some places
they're trying to get rid of pike because they gobble up all the other fish.  
I've never held the other kind of pike.

I've also known a battleaxe, she was Irish and Cherokee and worked on the Alaska
Pipeline as a cook.  We met her later.  Meanest woman I ever knew, but she liked
my husband and made him pickled beets and never hurt us the way she did some
folks. (There was one story about I guy who went into a crab pot and didn't came
up again)    I've never been hurt by the other kind of battleaxe, either.

***what is the
difference between a caster (or is it castor? they do make that oil...
[just joking]) and a wheel?***

I think a castor is a wheel in a frame.  Casters will help you scoot your kick
stool around.   Castor will give you the scoots.<g>


***I wanted to say something about knowing everything.***

David (dh) has done a lot of things, worked at a lot of different jobs, lived a
lot of different places.   He doesn't read much but he can fix anything, build
anything and remember.   He doesn't know everything but he knows more than I do
about all kinds of stuff.  He's been able to give Dylan information I couldn't
have.

***That's why unschooling works. That's HOW unschooling works. Because
someone cares about the difference between a pike (the word "pike")
and a battleaxe (the word and the parameters of its meaning).***

I know trivia.  I could answer the Jay Leno questions<g>.  It's not good for
much... getting the answers on Jeopardy.   But all that trivia came from wanting
to know why.  Why this and not that? Why then?  Why now?  Why not?  And the whys
take you to all kinds of philosophical thought.   If a person's curious, he's
learning all the time.  Kids are naturally curious.

Dylan wants answers to everything.  He'll stop a movie to look something up. 
He'll put his dinner aside to check a fact.   He asks questions and always has. 
We took a tour of a famous house a few days ago and he had lots of questions for
the tour guide that she didn't know the answers to.  She'd been working there
two years.  It seems likely the questions had come up before.   By the time we'd
been home an hour Dylan had found the answers.  Maybe the tour guide didn't like
her job, didn't care that much about history, or was so busy when she wasn't at
work she had no time to learn more about the house and the people who had live
there but it seemed very strange to Dylan that a person might not have the
desire to find out more.    She knew the scripted tour.  That's all she *had to
know* for her job.    It seemed a little like remembering just enough to pass
the test. <g>

Deb Lewis











Deb Lewis

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