2430 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. We will now
call the Calgary public hearing back to order.

2431 Mr. Secretary.

2432 MR. BURNSIDE: The next application to be heard is an application by
Gary Farmer on behalf of a company to be
incorporated and to be known as Aboriginal Voices Radio for a broadcasting
licence to carry on an English and aboriginal
language FM radio programming undertaking at Calgary. The new station would
operate on the frequency 88.1 with an effective
radiated power of 33,000 watts.

2433 You may proceed when you are ready.

APPLICATION / APPLICATION

2434 MR. KENNEDY: Good afternoon. Bonjour.

--- Native language spoken / Langage autochtone

2435 It is a good day for us, Mr. Chair, members of the Commission,
Commission staff, members of the public.

2436 We are honoured to appear before you today to speak on behalf of
Aboriginal Voice Radio, a non-profit aboriginal
organization with membership from all regions across Canada.

--- Native language spoken / Langage autochtone

2437 MR. KENNEDY: My name is Bob Kennedy. I am a member of the Onpida
Nation and a member of the founding board of
Aboriginal Voices Radio.

2438 If I may before we begin our formal presentation, we would like to
honour and recognize the people of Treaty Seven upon
whose traditional territory we are meeting here today.

2439 As well, I would like to take an opportunity to say thank you to Elder
Rod Hunter of Nakota Nation in Morley who this
morning held a ceremony on our behalf here in this building to encourage us
and to welcome us into the territory and to show his
support through this spiritual ceremony. So for that we say thanks to all
our relations.

2440 We will now introduce ourselves.

2441 MS BUFFALO: Good afternoon, Commissioners.

--- Native language spoken / Langage autochtone

2442 MS BUFFALO: My name is Marilyn Buffalo. I am from the Cree Nation,
Samson, which is two hours north of here, and
spent a lot of my youth and was raised in the City of Calgary and district.

2443 I have also just completed a three-year term as President of Native
Women Association of Canada. I have acted as a
policy advisor to the Assembly of First Nations. I was an advisor on native
affairs to the University of Alberta and founded the
Faculty of Native Studies in 1975.

2444 I am very proud to be here as a representative of the team to present
for Aboriginal Voices Radio.

2445 MR. FARMER: Good afternoon.

--- Native language spoken / Langage autochtone

2446 MR. FARMER: My name is Gary Farmer.

2447 I am the speaker of Aboriginal Voices Radio and also an actor and
radio and television producer and a long-time advocate
of native media development and broadcasting and print.

2448 Thank you.

2449 MS RIDER: Good afternoon.

--- Native language spoken / Langage autochtone

2450 MS RIDER: I am a radio broadcaster from the community of Morley, just
west of here -- about 40 kilometres out.

2451 MR. LITTLECHIEF: My name is Redmond Littlechief and I am the President
of the Urban Society for Aboriginal Youth.

2452 We are a non-profit organization here in the City of Calgary and we
are also the Mayor's Aboriginal Youth Advisory
Committee on Aboriginal Youth Issues.

2453 MR. MacLEOD: Good afternoon, members of the Commission.

2454 My name is Mark MacLeod. I am the Director of Licensing and
Development for Aboriginal Voices Radio and I have
previously had the privilege of heading a national campus community radio
association in both Canada and the U.S. So that is my
area of expertise and I am glad to be here.

2455 MS THRUSH: My name is Michele Thrush. I am an actress and also a
writer as well as a mother and a wife living in
Calgary. I grew up in Calgary and I have remained very active in the
performing arts community in the local as well as on the
national level.

2456 MR. HORVATH: Hello. My name is Tom Horvath. I am Ojibway from Ontario,
but have been living in Calgary for about
15 years now.

2457 I am currently the producer and host of Beyond Beads and Feathers
which is a show dedicated to aboriginal programming
at the University of Calgary station.

2458 MR. FRASER: Good afternoon. My name is Joshua Fraser. I am the
Executive Director for the Urban Society Aboriginal
News. I am also a journalist for the Mount Royal College and the PICSS Post
newspaper.

2459 Thank you.

2460 MR. KENNEDY: Members of the Commission, I would also like to take a
moment to introduce other members of the
team.

2461 Shane Breaker of Siksika Nation Communications. The Siksika has a
non-appearing low-power application at this hearing
before yourselves.

2462 Peter Doering of Peter Doering Consultations. He is our market
research consultant. John Matthews is our Director of
Engineering, and Bob Templeton is President of Newcap Broadcasting,
Aboriginal Voices Radio's broadcasting partner.

2463 I would now like to ask Gary to begin our opening remarks.

2464 MR. FARMER: Good afternoon, member of the Commission.

2465 We are pleased to appear before you once again. We are here today to
talk about the need for a new radio service in the
Calgary area and to outline our proposal to meet that need.

2466 In our presentation, we will tell you Calgary's need for an aboriginal
radio service. You will hear about our plan for a radio
service designed to fulfil this need. We will describe our business plan
for urban aboriginal radio in Calgary and highlight the
talented and experienced team that we joined us to reach that goal.

2467 For Calgary, this will be a new station offering new music, new news
and most importantly new voices.

2468 MR. HORVATH: Members of the Commission.

2469 The station we propose would be a first radio service for Calgary's
estimated 40,000 aboriginal people.

2470 Calgary does not have an aboriginal radio station. Currently, from
what I understand, I produce Calgary's only weekly
half-hour of aboriginal radio programming and I do this on CJSW-FM at the
University of Calgary.

2471 Unfortunately, a lack of aboriginal programming is common in major
cities across Canada. Aboriginal Voices Radio has
surveyed the listing habits of urban native people and more than half have
said that they actually seek out that single hour or two
available to them of aboriginal programming.

2472 My program in Calgary gets a tremendous community response despite the
fact that it is not always convenient for people
to tune in for that 30-minute or half-hour a week that I am on the air. If
you are not careful, you can miss my show pretty easily.

2473 There are a dozen radio services received in the Calgary market, yet
there really isn't one to reflect aboriginal culture. That
means of the roughly 2,000 hours of radio programming available each week
in Calgary, from what I understand, my show is the
only 30 minutes of programming with a consistent aboriginal focus.

2474 Not a single statio and only 30 minutes out of more than 2,000 hours.

2475 I sit today with the Aboriginal Voices Radio team because I know there
is an audience in Calgary for our programming.

2476 MS THRUSH: Members of the Commission.

2477 Aboriginal Voices Radio clearly has a passion to communication, a
passion for radio. But is there an audience?

2478 Aboriginal Voices Radio has used a variety of techniques, including
market research, focus groups and broad community
consultation to identify the expressed needs of aboriginal communities.
That research is the foundation for our programming and
business plans. Meeting the expressed needs of the community: that is the
wellspring of our passion.

2479 Aboriginal Voices Radio's market research in major cities across
Canada has shown that 9 in 10 Canadians believe that
there is a need for a national aboriginal radio service. The same
percentage supports the goals that AVR has for its proposed
service. In Calgary, the research found that that support is 91 per cent.

2480 In keeping with our traditions, Aboriginal Voices Radio came to
Calgary to present the network concept to ensure it was
wanted and to shape it to fit our community's needs. At a public community
meeting, and in many individual audiences, the
response was without exception warm and welcoming.

2481 Aboriginal Voices Radio is well aware of the number of needs in the
Calgary community. Over the last three decades, a
wide variety of reports from various levels of government, including the
comprehensive Royal Commission report, have detailed
the loss in Canadian culture due to the absence of aboriginal media.

2482 The report also sets out the expected benefits for both aboriginal
Canadians and the general public from the development of
aboriginal media.

2483 The Assembly of First Nations specifically supports the effort to
establish aboriginal radio services in Canadian urban
centres.

2484 The Minister for Indian Affairs, Robert Nault, has prioritized
improved communications as the key to the successful
resolution of outstanding issues between native and non-native people.

2485 The federal government, in partnership with the aboriginal leadership,
has recognized the magnitude of the crisis. A number
of major joint initiatives are under way with a focus on developing and
supporting healthier urban aboriginal communities.

2486 Communication is a vital component of these new initiatives and a free
and accessible medium of radio is a key to
restoration of culture.

2487 Radio can support improvement in community health and reductions in
substance abuse and suicide. It is not an
overstatement that a radio service in Calgary can save lives.

2488 MR. LITTLECHIEF: Members of the Commission.

2489 We all recognize that living in an urban community is stressful. Radio
can provide the connection we all need to overcome
the isolation and alienation of city life. Urban aboriginal people are in
the process of restoring and reclaiming our communities
through personal and collective healing journeys.

2490 With radio we can reach out to promote each other's efforts in the
struggle for healthier communities. With radio we can
build a better understanding between aboriginal people and Canadians, and
with radio we can promote positive aboriginal role
models, especially to our young people.

2491 Radio respects aboriginal oral traditions and allows sharing the
wealth of indigenous knowledge, culture and values. Radio is
a natural fit for us. Radio brings aboriginal people into the discourse
which will shape the future of all our lives.

2492 Calgary is a cosmopolitan city and a gathering place for people from
many regions and backgrounds. Aboriginal people are
a vital part of the city's cultural and civic life and the population of
Calgary has grown quickly and its aboriginal communities grow
even faster.

2493 While aboriginal people in Calgary have expressed a strong interest in
the new station, our market survey shows an
overwhelmingly favourable response beyond the native community. Our
programming includes and welcomes all people and is an
offering to all of Calgary.

2494 Think of AVR as the radio service of aboriginal people, for all people.

2495 MS BUFFALO: Commissioners, we want you to understand our national
vision and the role that our Calgary radio service
will play in it.

2496 We envisage a full 24-hour national network which will deliver
programming from an aboriginal perspective from our
Toronto flagship to our Calgary station.

2497 This national feed will include contributions and perspectives from
aboriginal people across Canada. Our network's national
programming menu will be similar to the CBC's multi-format offerings to its
national listeners. Just as the CBC's national schedule
is supplemented by local programming, AVRN will offer increasingly local
programming as resources become available. We will
establish a Calgary Media Advisory Circle to provide local guidance and to
make our national programming responsive to
Calgary's needs.

2498 The development of Calgary-based programming will begin with
locally-produced segments such as special event
programming that will be carried in the national schedule. This experience
will cultivate the local talent and organization needed to
present consistent high quality, weekly and daily local Calgary programming.

2499 AVR will support local efforts to nurture and provide training in
order to ensure that high quality local programming is
introduced when it is ready. This cautious approach will ensure a
financially stable vehicle for the future local programming, while
we can, at the same time, be sure that local programming is under local
direction and responsive to the needs of its audience.

2500 MR. KENNEDY: Calgary's aboriginal community includes many languages
and cultures. AVR programming will be
primarily in English, with regular inclusion of many of Canada's 53 native
languages, as well as in French, Spanish and other
languages.

2501 Many aboriginal languages and cultures remain in great danger of
extinction. AVR programming will support the
preservation of aboriginal languages in this emergency situation. Every
program will support and promote aboriginal cultures and
traditions.

2502 The network programming schedule will include full aboriginal news
reports, national phone-in programs, a women's round
table discussion, focus programs on language, youth, elders, health and
many other areas.

2503 News assignments will focus on events which impact Canada's aboriginal
communities that have been overlooked and
underreported by other news sources. AVR will also air spoken word
programming which features in-depth exploration of public
or community current affairs.

2504 As resources become available, one to two Calgary journalists or
producers will be hired to staff a local aboriginal news
bureau to provide enhanced local coverage.

2505 Arts programming will also be an important part of our programming. We
will create a comfortable place for our stories to
be told, through dramas, radio plays and storytelling.

2506 MS RIDER: Members of the Commission, AVR music programming will
feature a mix of primarily Canadian and world
aboriginal artists in a broad range of musical styles, with program hosts
providing informed commentary, information on the artists
presented and a variety of education and entertaining Canadian aboriginal
perspectives on issues of the day.

2507 While the new radio will bring an aboriginal world of programming to
Calgary, the vibrant local community of Calgary will
make vital contributions to the programming service they hear.

2508 Open-line programs will include the participation of Calgary listeners.

2509 Listeners can make music requests by telephone and by the Internet.

2510 News reports, interviews and other segments will allow elders, youth,
women and men of Calgary's various nations and
cultures to share their voices.

2511 This national programming perspective will allow current events and
cultural affairs taking place in other regions of the
country to be better understood in Calgary, without the filter of
mainstream media. Of course, the new service will also provide
the opportunity for local Calgary regional issues to be examined in the
context of a national perspective for listeners in Calgary
and elsewhere.

2512 MR. FARMER: Members of the Commission, our market research has
demonstrated demand in Calgary for our proposed
service.

2513 We took a very conservative approach in using this demand to forecast
how much national advertising revenue could be
generated by adding Calgary to the existing network. Our revenue
projections far exceed the modest operating costs.

2514 A network consisting of at least Toronto and Calgary stations will be
on a sound financial footing, with great potential
advertising revenue growth, and less reliance on program underwriting and
fundraising.

2515 We have strong support in Calgary for a pre-launch campaign to offset
all of the station's capital and start-up costs. These
costs total less than a quarter of our current $1 million reserve fund,
which was created to cover unforeseen shortfalls in AVR's
development.

2516 The Calgary service is not expensive to establish and we can operate
it because we plan to introduce local programming
only later after we have established the network revenues and expanded and
stabilized.

2517 MR. ANTHONY: Members of the Commission, AVR has a solid business plan
and the financial and human resources to
back it up. AVR is continuing to expand its board and recruit additional
advisors to have the widest possible depth and breadth of
expertise.

2518 Our legal counsel, Aird & Berlis, are working closely with us to
review all legal implications of our national development
plans, and our accounting firm, KPMG, have specialized experience in
broadcasting and aboriginal business issues and project
management. Our directors and Advisor Circle come from all across Canada
and represent years of expertise n all areas of
broadcasting.

2519 In addition to these resources, AVR seeks the spiritual guidance of
our elders and the approval of all of our communities.

2520 The AVR radio team has produced and distributed radio shows to native
stations and networks across North America. We
have produced concerts, an arts festival, Web casts and 24-hour a day
special event broadcasting in Toronto. Three years of
outreach to the community have shaped our vision for an aboriginal radio
service.

2521 Earlier this year, the Commission awarded AVR an FM radio licence in
Toronto. AVR has submitted an application in
Vancouver for a radio service like the one we propose for Calgary, and
AVR's application for the AVRN national radio network
is a non-appearing item at this CRTC hearing.

2522 This Calgary application represents the next step of AVR's plan to
spearhead the rapid advancement of aboriginal
broadcasting in Canada, especially in urban centres in southern Canada,
where aboriginal voices are seldom heard on the
airwaves. Despite years of supportive CRTC policies, this deplorable
situation exists in contrast to the clearly stated objectives of
the Broadcast Act.

2523 Just as the arrival of the AVRN service in Calgary will greatly
benefit Calgary listeners, the launch of the Calgary service
will play a key role in the development of the national aboriginal radio
service right across Canada.

2524 AVRN will not duplicate existing aboriginal or non-aboriginal services
but, rather, provide a supplementary and supportive
service, complementing and building on radio services which presently exist
in the Canadian broadcasting system. This will
provide a new type of support for native broadcasters, particularly those
who are ambitious to provide a full schedule of native
programming, but are simply unable to secure the necessary resources.

2525 AVRN will work closely, and share programming with, these existing
native broadcasters including the various native radio
networks and societies which operate in northern and rural Canada, as well
as other urban aboriginal broadcasters who produce
programming for university based radio stations.

2526 MR. FARMER: Commissioners, Calgary needs a new aboriginal radio service.

2527 We need this voice to overcome ignorance of our history and of the
Canadian aboriginal experience.

2528 We need this voice to offer positive role models and to balance
negative media stereotypes.

2529 We need this voice to build greater understanding between aboriginal
people and other Canadians.

2530 And most importantly, we need this voice in the struggle for healthy
communities.

2531 Members of the Commission, today, finally, we have the opportunity to
license a new and unique aboriginal radio service in
Calgary.

2532 We have highlighted for you our plans for a programming service which
includes seven lofty and ambitious goals:

2533 To be the first Calgary outlet for the broad every day expression of
aboriginal voices;

2534 To offer a media venue where native and non-native Canadians can speak
as neighbours;

2535 To be an inclusive radio service for all voices; women and men, elders
and youth;

2536 To be a means of support for the promotion of aboriginal languages and
culture;

2537 To provide exposure and promotion for aboriginal artists and
entrepreneurs;

2538 To operate with respect for the principles of environmental
sustainability, and;

2539 To remain a native controlled and operated media, not dependent on
government.

2540 These are compelling objectives for our radio service.

2541 Members of the Commission, all the necessary elements have come
together in this time and at this place.

2542 We have clearly identified demand in Calgary for a new urban
aboriginal service, and we have carefully shaped our
programming service to meet this demand.

2543 We have found a passion amongst aboriginal people in Calgary to share
their wealth of indigenous knowledge, culture and
positive values, and yet there is no current Calgary radio service upon
which we might hear their voices.

2544 We have proposed a sustainable business plan which includes sufficient
capital funding, and we have put together an
experienced, confident and knowledgeable team.

2545 We have reached the moment where we have the opportunity to finally
include a national aboriginal radio voice in the
Canadian broadcast system.

2546 Commission members, the time has come for an aboriginal radio voice in
Calgary. Thank you very much.

2547 THE CHAIRPERSON: Dene dae, Mr. Farmer and AVR panel members. My name
is Ron Williams. I will be leading the
questioning of your application.

2548 We are certainly pleased to hear this application on the traditional
territory of the people of Treaty 7. Earlier today I was
walking through the lobby of the hotel next door where we are staying and I
came upon a statue of Chief Crowfoot. I saw the
statue and so I went and read the little plaque on it. I now understand
that he was a prominent aboriginal leader from this area
who was one of the main advocates and signatories for Treaty 7. It was
interesting to see that.

2549 I certainly understand and am aware of the need for aboriginal peoples
to develop new communication networks. I know in
the area I am from in the north there is an old saying, "Until the caribou
tells its own story, the tale of the hunt will almost always
glorify the hunter". I look forward to helping explore your application in
more detail.

2550 My first question is although it is apparent from your application
that the proposed Calgary station will be a repeater of the
Toronto mother station at the beginning, it is not clear whether you
propose to day one air local programming originating in
Calgary that is oriented for the Calgary market only. Could you please
explain your intentions?

2551 MR. FARMER: Yes. We are proposing two and a half hours of written
programming right at the start of service to
Calgary.

2552 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you envision the Calgary station during the
proposed seven-year licence term broadcasting
programming that is available only to Calgary residents?

2553 MR. FARMER: In our current seven-year plan we are planning no original
programming that won't be heard on the
network nationally, if I am not mistaken.

2554 MR. MacLEOD: Just the two and a half hours that we mentioned.

2555 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just the two and a half hours.

2556 So is your proposal that the Calgary frequency always be used to air
what comes off the network from Toronto, including
local programming from Calgary that is distributed over the network?

2557 MR. FARMER: It's only until the resources become available. Of course
we know that in the licensing of Newcap in this
particular market it means $1.2 million in the local area, which would
enable us to start up an active part of the plan of one to two
journalists in town and get that whole action plan going if indeed we win
those dollars. Of course, we will pursue and have
entered into some discussions with the local movers and shakers to assist
us in committing some dollars if we have a licence in
hand to upstart that sooner than we had originally hoped.

2558 THE CHAIRPERSON: Should the Newcap application not be approved, what
would be your plan of action?

2559 MR. FARMER: We have had some discussions with much of the community
here in terms of there is space available for
instance at local facilities that would make room for us.

2560 We have had some discussion with the leadership and the Tsuu T'inna
who have spoken about some commitment and
interest to get the service originating -- I mean having original
programming coming from the Calgary region, if indeed we have a
licence.

2561 We have also of course with our team here are currently producing and
maybe Margaret can lead a bit about what she is
actually producing currently and the amount of programming that we are
currently producing here in Morley.

2562 MS RIDER: I would like to add to what Gary has said as far as local
programming. Our in Morley we have 10 hours a day,
five days a week air time. Mainly our program is designed to meet the needs
of the community that is right there.

2563 However, when --

--- Pause / Pause

2564 MS RIDER: Sorry. I will continue here.

2565 What we do back home is we believe in our old traditions and we
broadcast in our language, which is a Nakota language,
and we have elders come on and share a part of their teaching, with the
community, as well as our traditional songs and that, I
think, is something that we can share with the rest of Canada, with the
aboriginal communities.

2566 MR. FARMER: I might add that, you know, in this particular community
of Morley, we are there operating 50 hours a week
of broadcasting some of the strongest pow-wow drums we have ever known in
Canada, so they could easily operate, and we
could set up a pow-wow show, for instance, out of Morley quite handsomely
and get that right across the country.

2567 MR. KENNEDY: If I may add, Commissioner, it's our intention to work
with the local groups that Mr. Farmer has referred
to, and we are encouraged by the interest and the support. However, we
would like to add that, of course, financial support that
comes from our partners is crucial if we are to do professional, serious
and rapidly progressive programming operation in Calgary.
We do have some, certainly, interests and we have some creative ways that
we can fill some of that local programming but, in
fact, we will need some substantial financial assistance, as well.

2568 THE CHAIRPERSON: As no doubt you are aware, your application is
competing with an application from Golden West
Broadcasting for the same frequency, a High River-based broadcaster on the
same frequency also serving the Calgary market.

2569 If any licence to operate on the 88.1 frequency is granted, could you
please explain why it should be awarded to Aboriginal
Voices Radio, especially given that the AVR station will be a repeater of a
Toronto station while the Golden West proposes a
service that will be specifically oriented to the area south of Calgary?

2570 MR. FARMER: Robert has an answer, as well, but I would like to first
say that, you know, in our opening statement, we
mentioned that there's about 40,000 aboriginal people here in Calgary
region that our service would serve and, you know, knowing
the High River application, I only know that they are looking towards
15,000 people down there that they need to serve and I
would only say that it's coming into Calgary market and I think the need is
greater amongst the aboriginal people than a service
that would come in beyond their market that they are most interested in.

2571 Bob...?

2572 MR. KENNEDY: Perhaps I am just going to say it in a different way but
my understanding of those applications is that
there's already a served audience there, as opposed to -- and this would be
an additional licence to serve that same audience,
whereas here the urban aboriginal community is unserved, absolutely; so
this would be the genesis that doesn't exist at all for
urban aboriginal people.

2573 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Farmer.

2574 Given that you propose to offer on the Calgary stations such a small
amount of programming directed only to the residents
of Calgary, how do you justify using up a radio frequency in the Calgary
market with a station that has minimal local input, or a
small amount of local input?

2575 MR. FARMER: Well, we believe that the programming that we are going to
be originating in Toronto is going to be
extremely relevant to the community here. Much of our programming is based
on talk radio, a 38 per cent spoken word content.
We will simply produce -- if we know that we are going to be supplying
content to the west, we will be very conscientious of that
in our origination of the programming. So, we don't feel that it's a
hindrance. I mean where you are going to notice it most, I think,
is in local advertising in Toronto. And it really is just an upstart
service until we actually get our feet in the water, earn some
dollars and are able to expand services. It's going to be in our best
interest to give the best service we possibly can to this market.
So we are just asking to upstart with only two and a half hours original
programming because that's only what we can do right
now until further funds become available. But we believe that our national
service originating in Toronto will be very relevant.

2576 We would be happy to go over the programming schedule with you in
detail to show you what programs would be relevant
to the Calgary audience as well as the Toronto market.

2577 Michele would like to add something.

2578 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thrush...?

2579 MS THRUSH: I also just wanted to say a small comment on that.

2580 Growing up in southern Alberta as an aboriginal woman, just to hear
things coming from the east, whether it's the east or the
west or whatever, to hear aboriginal voice, to hear aboriginal music, is
something that would connect me to my identity and to the
young people of this territory. If it's coming from the east, it's a start,
and it's a voice, and it's very important for our young people
to hear that.

2581 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you decided to jump in, am I right?

--- Laughter / Rires

2582 MR. FARMER: Yes. Currently, yes, it is.

2583 THE CHAIRPERSON: A jump start perhaps --

--- Laughter / Rires

2584 MR. KENNEDY: Mr. Chair, if I may just pick up briefly on your question
which, I believe, was the limited -- perhaps that
wasn't your word -- but the limited amount of Calgary programming.

2585 I believe that's only true if we don't have the resources and if our
overall plan is not put in place. I believe if our plan is
approved and our partner's, Newcap, financial plan is put in place, we
intend, for example, Gary, I believe it's $84,000 is part of
that that would allow us to set up an actual bureau in Calgary which would
generate local content. But not only that, the people
who are here supporting us today from these local urban organizations have
an immense amount of information to share with our
brothers and sisters across the country and, not only that, through the
repeater here in Calgary. And once we have some
resources I believe kick-started in Calgary, it will just help expand and
have a place to distribute this local content.

2586 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Kennedy.

2587 Talking about local content, the CRTC's native broadcasting policy
states that the ownership of a native radio licensee
should provide for a board membership by the native population of the
region served.

2588 The Commission notes that none of AVR's board of directors come from
Calgary.

2589 Can you comment on this and explain how, despite composition of the
board, you feel you would meet the needs and the
interests of the aboriginal people in the Calgary area?

2590 MR. FARNHAM: Well, we are in the process of currently expanding our
board of directors, of course, and Marilyn
Buffalo, who is with us today, is, you know, the outgoing president of the
Native Women's Association of Canada and is a
member of the Sampson Cree Band in Alberta. We have, also, many other
members here who specifically live in Calgary. But
we would be honoured to have a member of the Calgary native community as a
member of our board if, indeed, we are awarded
a licence.

2591 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Farmer.

2592 I want to talk a bit more about your -- you state you propose to
increase the amount of local Calgary programming as
resources become available and in your critical path of development that
you filed with us, it shows that a news bureau would be
established in Calgary, you know, between July 2002 and June 2003.

2593 Can you make a commitment in this area, understanding that you cannot
commit for the Newcap but just on behalf of
yourself?

2594 MR. FARMER: I think we -- well, I don't want to put a condition on
myself but I feel confident that we could get that
service up and operating before that date.

2595 THE CHAIRPERSON: The next question, or the next part of that question,
actually, does deal with the putting of a
condition on there.

2596 Would you be prepared to accept a conditional licence requiring that a
news bureau be established in Calgary by June 2003?

2597 MR. FARMER: That's an excellent idea. Yes, we would.

2598 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are very flexible.

2599 How many staff members do you anticipate hiring for this news bureau?
Or do you anticipate it would be run by volunteers?

2600 MR. FARMER: Robert, would you like to answer that question?

2601 MR. KENNEDY: I think I caught it as I was receiving a note, but the
number of staff --

2602 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, staff or volunteers, I guess, would be part of
the question, and then how many after that.

2603 MR. KENNEDY: One to two staff. But, certainly, volunteers, unlimited
in the context of -- as you know, we have stated
that part of our community-inclusive process is to have our aboriginal
advisory circles, which would include not only advice on
editorial programming, board membership, anything that would guide us from
the aboriginal community would include members
from the youth advisory group, the friendship centre and all of the key
urban aboriginal organizations who, as I say, have so many
programs in place now that they provide service to our people. That needs
to get out there, the information about these valuable
programs, that the aboriginal community and governments, both provincial
and federal and local, are involved. But, quite frankly,
we need to increase the communication in a part of that, so I'm seeing a
lot of volunteers tied to that bureau, as well.

2604 MR. FARMER: Joshua would like to make a statement as well.

2605 MR. FRASER: I think the support from the community is really strong
for this radio station with the non-profit community in
Calgary, especially the aboriginal one. They are quite united and they
really promote this radio station.

2606 I know there are programs at Mount Royal College and SAIT,
broadcasting and journalism, which have a few aboriginal
students who are looking for this sort of experience. And it's good for
their own résumé, as well, but it's also -- it would be
excellent. I think they would be very willing to support the radio station
and to volunteer their time. Me and Redmond are an
example of two individuals who are very interested in supporting this radio
station.

2607 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Fraser.

2608 MR. HORVATH: If I could add something, too.

2609 I have been working with volunteers, at the University of Calgary,
producing aboriginal programming, and it's been a lot of
fun. I get volunteers -- there's a native centre at the university and I'm
linked in with the president and the leaders at the
University of Calgary, and they are always coming down, almost on a monthly
basis, to do panels and discussion, and it's all on a
volunteer basis, and they have always got new story ideas, new things that
they would like to get on the air. It has not been a
challenge for me, in any way.

2610 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thankyou, Mr. Horvath.

2611 Mr. Farmer, in looking at your filed critical path of development, I
don't see any indication you plan to set up a separate
broadcast studio in Calgary.

2612 Do you foresee a time when Calgary may have its own studio facilities?
And if so, when during the first licence term might
that be?

2613 MR. FARMER: Maybe we should just have a quick meeting about this
before we give an answer, just to get some --

2614 THE CHAIRPERSON: You certainly can.

--- Pause / Pause

2615 MR. FARMER: Mr. Kennedy will answer that for you.

2616 MR. KENNEDY: The answer is yes. The qualifier is timing and
availability of resources.

2617 Programming -- I don't think we have difficulty in the amount of
programming that we could gather and make available from
urban aboriginal people in Calgary, but I don't think we want to leave you
with the impression that it can be done cheaply and that
it can be done easily.

2618 The commitments that Mr. Farmer has made to your questions relate to,
certainly, bare bones. You know. I don't believe it's
what you would ask of CBC or others, in terms of the need in the community.
So I think I just want to qualify the "yes": timing
and also significant resources. We can be hopeful we will gather them
locally but, quite frankly, it's contingent upon the
arrangement we have presented to the Commission, in terms of our financial
plan.

2619 I hope I answered your question.

2620 THE CHAIRPERSON: Most of it.

2621 Do you think it's possible within the first term of licence?

2622 MR. FARMER: I know that we are a little worried about, you know, just
making a commitment but, yes, I think within the
seven years, for sure. I feel confident. I was ambitiously wandering around
Calgary for weeks before the hearing here talking to
the community about, you have space, there is space here, there is space
available for us to move right into the community and
establish studios right off the kick. There is interest in that. But we
don't have any signed agreements to present to you today, but
I think, easily, we could assure you that within the first seven-year term
that we would have production studios developed here in
Calgary.

2623 THE CHAIRPERSON: If you were granted a licence, how much original
local programming will be available on the
proposed Calgary station by the end of the licence term? Say five, six,
seven years out. How much local programming do you
anticipate would be available and how much of that local programming would
be directed specifically to Calgary residents?

2624 MR. KENNEDY: I'm told up to 33 per cent was the figure we had extracted.

2625 THE CHAIRPERSON: So 33 per cent original local programming near the
end of the licence term.

2626 MR. KENNEDY: Yes.

2627 THE CHAIRPERSON: And how much of that directed to the Calgary
residents? All of it or some of it?

2628 MR. KENNEDY: I believe it would all be unless for some reason there
was -- well, there wouldn't be resistance. Yes, that
would be targeted to Calgary.

2629 MR. MacLEOD: If I could just add to that point?

2630 While the focus of our application is to make this part of a system
across Canada that particularly serves urban aboriginal
people, we are very mindful of the communities that are in the area, and
they will certainly be a part of the programming as well
given that two out of the three are already producing a lot of programming
and are very interested in feeding into the
programming that we will present.

2631 So, as we mentioned earlier, we may immediately -- and we have been
talking to people since we have been working this
Calgary application -- we may immediately add some of the programming from
Calgary to the national feed. So even though it
will not be produced at a studio in Calgary it will be produced from radio
facilities in this area.

2632 But when we mentioned the up to 33 per cent. I think our feeling is
that, at a point where the community in Calgary was
able to produce that level of programming for inclusion here in Calgary, we
would likely be seeing an application come forward
from a group for perhaps a separate local licence, because once, you know,
there is that much interest we would think that, you
know, there would be a group here that would be looking for a completely
local station.

2633 There certainly is interest in all the cities we have met with people
across Canada on this national development program in
having their own local stations with their own local programs. But we see
this national network and the station that we are putting
in being, as Gary likes to say, an upstart to get that interest and to
build that programming team in each city.

2634 MR. FARMER: If I might add as well, Commissioner Williams, that
already, once we even go on air, we have to use
Siksika where we are established and also studios in Morely. Both are
committed to the effort for programming. If you look at
our map that we have given to you you will see that both those communities
are in our listening range and our proposed service.

2635 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you foresee a time during the first --

2636 MR. FARMER: I'm sorry, we have a comment from --

2637 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry.

2638 MR. FARMER: It's all right.

2639 MS BUFFALO: An additional comment, Mr. Chair.

2640 I would like to say that I think Calgary is a very unique community.
Yes, I have lived in Ottawa for seven years but not all
the time. I have spent a lot of time here as well. We have many corporate
friends in the city of Calgary. When I say "we", I
mean all of us that reside in Alberta.

2641 For instance, we have partnership arrangements with Husky and
Syncrude. We own Peace Hills Trust. We are growing we
are developing. I see radio as only another avenue for us, to give
opportunity for us as educators to be able to work even further
down the road with our partners. I see absolutely nothing but positive
growth and developing and extracting funds from some of
our good partners in program development. I think we are there now.

2642 I see nothing but absolute fun for our young people being equal
participants with the rest of society. For many years, for the
last 200 years, we have been expected to assimilate and to learn the
English language, and I think we have done that rather well,
but we now want to begin teaching. We want to bring our neighbours along in
teaching them our languages and our culture and
our lifestyle and grow with our families in the Calgary area.

2643 Thank you.

2644 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Buffalo.

2645 Mr. Farmer, do you foresee a time during the first term of licence
when the Calgary station might have a greater proportion
of local programming than programming that is received from the station in
Toronto?

2646 MR. FARMER: Just to qualify Mark's statements earlier about our
efforts are to get broadcasting up any way we can, so
we will encourage this community to actually embrace the licence and come
after it themselves and go full time.

2647 Hopefully we can augment their programming in the future, seven years
down the line, anyway that they would like us to.
But our effort is just to try and get our people up any way we can. So we
support any effort.

2648 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you don't have quotas from each community that
will be on your national feed? Is it a first
come, first serve? Like if everybody is producing, eventually the time is
filled.

2649 MR. FARMER: Yes. I think it is going to be based on the quality of the
contents. If the content meets their interest. I hope
there will be a line up. Hopefully there is a struggle to get to
programming air because whoever can produce the best content is
going to be the winner. I think that's what it's all about is trying to
create good content.

2650 THE CHAIRPERSON: And when you make these decisions, I guess that's
where the regionally represented board comes
in then, so that there is an even distribution, so to speak.

2651 MR. FARMER: That's right. Thank you.

2652 MR. MacLEOD: I would just like to add as well that when you say
"programming from Toronto", well, the programming is
originating from Toronto. In fact, the group of people that are currently
putting the programming together for which we hope to
launch in the near future come from 25 different nations across Canada
already that grouped.

2653 Toronto is a gathering place for people, so in fact the interest of
the people that were producing that live in Toronto is from
all over the country, plus the programming service from Toronto will have
programming from Mi'kmaq people that are operating a
radio station in Eskasone in Nova Scotia, from Maliseet people in Tobique
in New Brunswick. I mean we already have
arrangements with them to take some of their programming.

2654 So the service that comes out of Toronto is in fact going to have
representation from across the country and interests and
voices of people across the country. The only common factor is that they
will be in Toronto at that time.

2655 Thank you.

2656 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. MacLeod.

2657 Mr. Farmer, in your letter of clarification to the Commission dated 25
July, 2000, you say:

"AVR does not project exceeding an average of two minutes of advertising
per hour on any broadcasting day." (As read)

2658 Yet you are requesting that AVR be given an exemption from the
four-minute ad limitations in the Native Broadcasting
Policy. If you are not going to be using more than two, why do you need
more than four, I guess, is the question?

2659 MR. FARMER: That was the budgets originally were based on, you know,
1.5 minutes per hour to, you know, meet our
budget requirements. We didn't want to be caught short that if indeed the
program underwriting or the corporate underwriting for
programming isn't meeting the amount of money that we need to make the
station work, that we just wanted to have that fallback
so that we can pump up the effort to get more advertising on the air and
lay off the corporate underwriting.

2660 If the advertising is going to work for us, then when we want to have
that option.

2661 THE CHAIRPERSON: Let's say the Calgary station is, for all intents and
purposes now, a repeater of the Toronto station,
and the Toronto station currently has no ad restrictions, how does the
Calgary station remain in compliance?

2662 The Toronto station has no advertising restrictions. The Calgary
station is repeating Toronto programming but it is limited to
this four-minute maximum, how will that work for the Calgary station to
remain in compliance?

2663 MR. FARMER: Just give me one second on that question. I am a little
confused.

2664 What you are asking is: how does the Calgary market sustain itself?

2665 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. If Calgary is not allowed to have more than four
minutes of advertising but Toronto can have
much more advertising than four minutes, how does the Calgary station
remain in compliance, like, if it is restricted to four
minutes?

2666 MR. KENNEDY: If I may, I think one simple answer and one simple
solution is the technology allows for control of that in
terms of distribution/ deletion. That would be my --

2667 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you would delete the excess advertisements, if
that's the way it worked out.

2668 MR. KENNEDY: It's a heads-up that would need to be addressed certainly
in the distribution, yes.

2669 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am going to spend a bit more time talking about
advertising.

2670 The Commission's policy is that generally it does not permit licensees
to solicit advertising in markets where the licensee
does not provide local programming to that market.

2671 Can you explain why AVR should be allowed to solicit advertising from
Calgary when the service will provide very little
programming directed specifically to Calgary residents? Like, it is
directed to aboriginal people nationwide is what I understand.

2672 MR. FARMER: We are not asking for any local advertising in our current
budget to operate the Calgary service. We are
relying totally on the national.

2673 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Okay. So you have stated:

"There are no plans to sell local advertising for airing only in the
Calgary market. Prospective advertisers would be solicited from
every region of the country." (As read)

2674 Does that not include Calgary?

2675 MR. FARMER: Yes. Certainly for the national market, yes.

2676 THE CHAIRPERSON: But not local.

2677 MR. FARMER: Not local.

2678 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you.

2679 Let's talk about your Toronto radio station that you appeared last
January and got a licence sometime later.

2680 Tell us, what is the current status of your radio station? Are you on
air now?

2681 MR. FARMER: No, we are not. We have to do some testing obviously first
on 106.5, because we have had some
unexpected pit stops. Of course the whole project was put on hold because
of the francophone situation -- they put an appeal in --
so legitimately it is difficult for us even to yet confirm that we are
legitimate owners of 106.5 until that has been through the
courts, et cetera, and cleared up.

2682 Secondly, our efforts for the past time have been spent -- of course,
the Calgary and Vancouver applications and our
national licence has brought itself forward, so we have been really busy
preparing for this hearing and for Vancouver.

2683 So everything is going fine. We feel very confident that we will meet
our deadline of June 2001. In fact, we are ambitious to
be on the air long before that.

2684 THE CHAIRPERSON: Actually, maybe if I can ask legal counsel.

2685 His last answer indicates that maybe they could not proceed because of
the appeal. I can ask another question while you
think about an answer to that and then get back to you, if that is okay.

2686 MR. BATSTONE: What?

2687 THE CHAIRPERSON: The question is: Because of the appeal, has the AVR
station in Toronto been delayed? Is that a
factor? Okay. The answer is yes.

--- Pause / Pause

2688 MR. BATSTONE: Yes. I'm sorry. I'm not particularly familiar with the
direction that was given in that case. I mean to the
extent that the Commission's decision licensing the application in Toronto
has not been overturned, you know, you could take the
view, I think, that it is still valid. But of course there is the practical
reality there that if it were overturned you would be stuck
having made investments and whatnot that he couldn't recover.

2689 I'm sorry, I don't have all the particulars --

2690 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that. I don't want to put the Commission
or the applicant on the spot, and particularly
because it is a matter before the courts, but I just wanted a little bit of
clarification for my own information.

2691 So your launch, I guess it is now a tentative launch date, of June
2001 --

2692 MR. FARMER: Yes. We will be on the air for sure by then.

2693 THE CHAIRPERSON: Have you attracted staff, made arrangements for
equipment, even tentatively at this stage?

2694 MR. FARMER: I would be happy to have Mr. MacLeod let you in on some of
the activities that have been going on within
our community.

2695 It has been very active. Everyone is just ready to go. But there are
lots of people around our group together, collectively.
We are really a collective movement of journalists and mediamakers who are
just anxious to go. So, you know, we could pick our
staff tomorrow. They are all around us. So that is not an issue.

2696 Where we are right now is negotiating with -- we are trying to find an
aboriginal partner to move into this movement with to
match Newcap's commitment dollar for dollar and so we are actively pursuing
those areas too so that we can move even faster
in terms of doing our A plan as opposed to our B plan in terms of staffing.

2697 So we are still in negotiations and working hard to underwrite our
activities and upstart.

2698 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Farmer.

2699 Now your application states that since the call for applications is in
the Calgary market, Aboriginal Voices Radio has
undertaken various initiatives just to gear up to $250,000 in new funding
to specifically cover the cost of launching and operating a
new Calgary radio service.

2700 Could you tell us a bit about how this fundraising effort is
progressing and what types of activities?

2701 MR. FARMER: Maybe I will send that question over to Bob Kennedy.

2702 MR. KENNEDY: Mr. Chair, I think it might be an opportunity for us now,
if we could. We have some -- some of these
things.

--- Laughter / Rires

2703 MR. KENNEDY: Charts -- I lost the words. We have some numbers that we
could walk through there.

--- Pause / Pause

2704 MR. FARMER: So in regards to your question, Commissioner, it is only
100,000 actually to get the Calgary service up, so if
we need to we have the reserve fund there, if indeed we can't meet our
fundraising requirements. But we feel confident and that
is not really an issue for us.

2705 Maybe I can get Mr. MacLeod to go over this plan for you more in
detail, if you would like.

2706 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that would be nice.

2707 MR. MacLEOD: Well, I think perhaps you will be asking a question where
going through this will actually provide the
answer to that question. So I will just wait until you ask a question that
is appropriate to this, if that is okay.

2708 I guess the reason that I am saying that is because what we are
talking about here is the combination of cost for Toronto
and for Calgary. That is the main thing that you are seeing on the board
and these boards have been prepared mainly for our
supporting intervention in favour of the Newcap application. So you see a
relationship between what the Newcap funding would
do for AVR beyond the amount of revenue that we generate for ourselves,
according to our business plan.

2709 So I understand you are talking about the fundraising plan for the
Calgary station specifically at this point. Correct?

2710 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you have mentioned in your application that you
have undertaken certain initiatives to raise
$250,000. I guess we would like to know what those initiatives were and how
they are progressing.

2711 MR. MacLEOD: Those initiatives are under way and we have not had any
conclusive success in raising that money to this
point. But they are perhaps in a bit of a hiatus while we are attending to
this hearing, but they will continue after the hearing is
over and, in fact, if we are awarded the licence, if we have not met our
objective by that time, then we would continue
fundraising.

2712 I mean, it's a relatively small amount of money. We have approached a
number of people that if we get an approval from
any of them, it could potentially cover that minimal cost to get us up and
running. But in the worst case scenario, as we indicated
in our deficiency response in the application, we would go to our reserve
fund that we have set aside and borrow money from
that in order to make sure that we did not miss the deadline.

2713 Of course, you have heard us mention the Newcap application here in
Calgary a number of times and that would obviously
immediately solve this problem if that were approved.

2714 MR. KENNEDY: If I may, Mr. Chairman.

2715 As I am sure you know, this is a complex undertaking that Aboriginal
Voices Radio is involved in because there are a
number of scenarios which are laid out here, a number of scenarios that
Toronto is a stand-alone -- first of all, we don't know that
we have an Aboriginal Voices Radio network. We don't know that we will in
fact have a network. We don't know whether we
will have Calgary.

2716 So in terms of the business aspect of it, it's quite complex to be
speculating on how you manage a possible scenario in
Calgary. So we do have fundraising contingencies in place, but we are
hopeful, of course, that you would see fit to grant us both
the network licence and the licence in Calgary for the repeater as well as
the funding that would be attached to that.

2717 If that doesn't take place, of course, we would go to plan B, as Gary
said, and we would have to spend more time on it then.

2718 MR. FARMER: Also we would get the Toronto service going. We are only
using 1.5 minutes of commercials per hour
currently in our current budget. It's just increasing that, work harder on
sales in order to upstart our service to generate the kind
of money we need to get it all going.

2719 As you know, it is difficult to get the infrastructure going. It is
one of the challenges we face as new operators in this
country and there is a lot of support out there for us. It is just that
having a licence and building our organization, and I think we
are doing a really good job. I feel confident that we will be able to get
through this.

2720 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Farmer, you estimate that by year four your
station will generate $25,000 per year from
fundraising.

2721 Will this fundraising activity involve on-air solicitation of ads,
like PBS or CKUA in Alberta, for example?

2722 MR. FARMER: Yes, it will.

2723 THE CHAIRPERSON: You had a study produced by Peter Doering
Consultations on market research. Can you give just a
quick thumbnail sketch of the results of that survey in terms of the
perceived need for a radio station and the proportion of the
perceived need for the aboriginal station?

2724 MR. FARMER: Sure.

2725 Peter.

2726 MR. DOERING: Thank you, Gary.

2727 Mr. Chair. We conducted a survey in ten major markets across Canada. A
total of 1,500 Canadians were interviewed and
we were investigating both their interest in the proposed service as well
as support for the service and support for the overall
philosophy and objectives of Aboriginal Voices Radio.

2728 As you can see in the application, the results were overwhelmingly in
favour in each of the markets that we investigated.
Nine in ten Canadians in each of those markets were very supportive of the
concept and with respect to the likelihood of listening
to the particular service, we found on the overall total of the ten
markets, that just over one in ten Canadians indicated that they
would be interested in listening to the service and learning more about the
aboriginal community.

2729 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Doering.

2730 I just have a few more questions here. Mr. Farmer, if you need a
moment --

2731 MR. FARMER: Sorry.

2732 THE CHAIRPERSON: As you are aware, your proposal is mutually exclusive
with another applicant in that you are both
proposing to use frequency 8.1 in Calgary.

2733 This being the case, and in the event the Commission concludes that
both proposals should be licensed, have you or your
engineering consultants looked at any other available frequencies that
could satisfy your coverage objectives for Calgary, and if
so, what were your findings? I am going to wrap these all together.

2734 Would you be willing to use an AM frequency? Would you be willing to
revise your technical parameters by proposing the
use of an alternate FM frequency, even if it means of less quality, a lower
class frequency?

2735 MR. FARMER: Well, you know, I feel very strongly that no AM, it's too
expensive to operate for us obviously in an upstart
operation, and we are really working in the FM area now, once we have been
granted JUMP-FM, of course, in the City of
Toronto. So we are anxious to carry on with that work. It's a far more
affordable medium for us at this time.

2736 If I could turn to Mr. Matthews in regards to some of the research
that he has done regarding the alternative frequencies in
the area.

2737 John.

2738 MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Gary.

2739 We picked 38.1 because we knew it had the least possibility of
interfering with airport frequencies in Calgary and we would
be willing to switch to one of the several other frequencies available if
necessary.

2740 However, we are competing with Golden West for 88.1 and we believe
that Golden West would have an easier time of
finding an alternate frequency. They actually had originally applied for a
different frequency than 88.1, but then in consultation
with Industry Canada, switched to 88.1 in order to meet the requirements of
NAVCOM interference.

2741 In fact, if they were to choose a site, for instance, closer to High
River than Calgary, then they will be able to avoid the
interference problems they ran into with the original frequency they had
applied for.

2742 So in summary, yes, we would be willing to change parameters, if
necessary, but we might suggest that it might be easier
for Golden West to do that.

2743 MR. KENNEDY: As well, Mr. Chair, with due respect to myself and the
grey hair that is on my head and my generation
that was quite aware of what AM was and quite frankly our urban aboriginal
youth and the quality of the music that they expect,
they certainly don't listen to AM radio. I mean, with respect, that would
be a practical, logical -- if we were to say yes, I think we
would be wrong to accept AM.

2744 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Matthews, Mr. Kennedy.

2745 I have a final question that you can think about -- I am not
recommending you answer it until to hear the rest of the
questions -- other panellists may have questions for you. That will be:
given that your proposal is competing with another
application for 88.1, and in addition there are several applications and
other frequencies also competing for an FM licence in the
Calgary area, I would like to know -- maybe a quick summary on why your
application is the best use of this frequency. And it
will give you the opportunity to sum up in a few minutes your application's
best points.

2746 But before you answer that, I will see if any of the other
Commissioners or legal counsel have questions.

2747 Andrée? Oh, you have a fair amount of questions. We will start with
Commissioner Langford, please.

2748 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Good afternoon, evening, trick or treat. I am
not sure where we are. There is no clock
here. But anyway -- I suppose we will be waylaid by goblins on the way home.

2749 My question is about this AM versus FM. AM in some sense is looked
upon as the kind of poor sister or something, people
are down on it because the music quality is better on FM. But you have a
lot of talk shows and I understand that the technologies
are compatible. I mean, if you were repeating shows from Toronto, you could
repeat on AM what started on FM. That wouldn't
be a problem.

2750 I mean, I don't know how to ask this but to just straight ask you is
this kind of knee jerk to say, "No, we want to go FM"
because everybody goes FM or have you really had sort of discussions and
studies on the AM?

2751 I just want to make sure. I am not questioning your answer. You can
give whatever answer you like, obviously. But I just
want to make sure that you have explored it because it struck me when I
read your application that there was a lot of talk and
one sees that there are four viable AM stations in Calgary right now and
they tend to have a lot of talk on them.

2752 So I just wondered whether you had in fact investigated that as a
viable option?

2753 MR. FARMER: I am sure I know that Bob Kennedy has an answer. I would
like to add something too. Go ahead, Bob.

2754 MR. KENNEDY: At the risk of repeating myself, first of all, I can't
speak for the other applicants and commercial
broadcasters who are non-aboriginal and don't see their community the way
we do.

2755 First of all, the majority of our people in the urban aboriginal
setting are youth, that's including spoken word and talk. The
reason they will come to our radio station is because they need to know
about their culture, they need to know about what's going
on with their languages and the elders and what's going on in the community.

2756 But right now we know those youth don't listen to AM radio. I am not
aware of any studies that indicate youth have gone
back to AM radio. Most AM, in my understanding of the popular research, is
that it is used for a lot of oldies, tunes I might be
familiar with, but certainly in the AM format that they are used in the
major markets.

2757 First of all, that would be my argument that we certainly wouldn't
want to go to AM because how are we going to drag our
aboriginal youth to a medium that they are not familiar with and they would
resist probably. More so, I would like to hear, if we
could, John Matthews, who certainly has expertise in this area, if we may.

2758 MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you.

2759 The cost of an AM station because of the land and tower requirements
is in the millions of dollars, whereas an FM station
can be put on the air for hundreds of thousands of dollars. AM is simply
unattainable unless you have very deep pockets.

2760 MR. FARMER: I would like to finally add that I have been a part of
this process for a long time. I have watched ethnic
communities in this country build economies with radio on FM currently.

2761 We saw who you awarded the AM licence to in Toronto. We would have
taken it gladly because of the 10 million listeners
we could have potentially reached, but in the end you chose to give it to
55-plus. That's a precedent you set.

2762 We are trying to reach youth. We are trying to reach -- a service they
put in Auckland, New Zealand, 10 years ago, they
put 25 stations together with a major station in Auckland and they climbed
to number one within six months. They are still number
one in Auckland, New Zealand, a community based aboriginal service.

2763 We feel that we need a chance here. We don't need AM radio right now.
It's antiquated. It's not where it's at for our
communities. It's time for us to take control of our economic operations
here and our vision of programming. We want to do it on
FM and that's what we are asking for.

2764 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I asked a question and I got an answer. Thank
you very much.

2765 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Langford.

2766 Commissioner Cram.

2767 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

2768 Mr. Farmer, I am highly mindful of the fact that this is a competitive
forum and so I feel compelled to clarify two things with
you.

2769 If I understand about the Toronto appeal, has that already been dealt
with, the francophone appeal?

2770 MR. FARMER: No. It's still in the courts. It hasn't been -- it has
been in the courts for quite some time.

2771 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Or with Cabinet?

2772 MR. FARMER: Yes, excuse me, I guess it's in Cabinet now. Yes, it is.

2773 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And are you aware that they applied to overturn the
decision about you? They could or they
could not have?

2774 MR. FARMER: As far as I understand it they are not trying to overturn
us. In fact, the francophones gave us a letter of
support for our application.

2775 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So that appeal should not in any way have delayed
you?

2776 MR. FARMER: Well, it's just there though. It's legitimate. We are
named in it. All the applicants were named in it. All the
legal documents I have received have all three winners on, so I am just
letting you know that that was reality legally.

2777 MR. MacLEOD: Commissioner Cram, I think it is important to clarify
that all the decisions that the Commission rendered in
Toronto were appealed by the francophone group. So even though they told us
we have nothing personal against you, we don't
want to keep you from getting a frequency, they essentially wanted all the
decisions set aside until such time --

2778 COMMISSIONER CRAM: That was in their application? I didn't think it was.

2779 MR. MacLEOD: I believe that it was. It was in French, so I was relying
on a translation as a unilingual, but that's what I
understood.

2780 I have spoken to CRTC legal counsel, Mr. Gay, about this and kept
informed of it.

2781 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You then talked about two and a half hours of
original programming right from the first. Do I
understand that what that really is is Calgary Community Calendar which
will be between one minute and two minutes 30
seconds in length, repeated 10 to 20 times per day?

2782 MR. FARMER: Well, I think -- let me just check a second.

--- Pause / Pause

2783 MR. FARMER: Yes.

2784 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Correct?

2785 MR. FARMER: Yes, you are.

2786 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So it really is when you talk original programming,
it is one minute to two minutes 30 seconds,
per day?

2787 MR. FARMER: Yes, it's information of things that are going on in
Calgary.

2788 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. So it is not 2.5 hours original programming.
It is one minute to two minutes 30 seconds,
per day, repeated.

2789 MR. FARMER: Well, I think the information is --

2790 MR. MacLEOD: The answer is, yes, it should not have been characterized
as 2.5 hours of original programming, only as
local programming.

2791 It's only in the application because that's the definition the CRTC
puts on that programming, otherwise we would have said
-- it's just a clear definition situation.

2792 We are not pretending that that is highly original or creative
programming out of Calgary, but it is essential for a service in
Calgary to let people in Calgary what activities are going on in the local
community. So that is the one element we could not
ignore if we were going to upstart a radio station that had to be in there.

2793 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I hear you.

2794 When you then talk to up to 33 per cent local programming by year
five, six and seven, and it would be directed to Calgary,
how much of that will be original versus repeat programming?

2795 MR. MacLEOD: It's entirely possible that some of those hours could be
repeated -- in other words, a show that is heard live
on Wednesday is repeated on the weekend, but generally the intention is
that those would be all original hours of programming
and, as we mentioned earlier in our presentation, we have producers already
producing programming in local communities here.
We have people sitting on the team here who are chomping at the bit at the
opportunity to be able to produce programming and
have it heard outside of this forum.

2796 I think it hasn't really come up in the hearing, but I would like to
make sure that the Commission is aware that granting us a
network licence it is not just going to be Toronto and Calgary, but rather
there are native broadcasting entities across the country
that have told us that they are interested in taking our programming and
airing it, at least the overnight section, if not during the
day, taking national news or whatever.

2797 So there will be potentially 50 to 100 stations that are carrying some
portions of the programming once you grant us a
licence. And, of course, once we are producing it it's only these two
stations at this point that we are asking for a licence directly
in our own control. Thank you.

2798 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

2799 MR. FARMER: Commissioner Cram, I think and I know this isn't a
precedent, but I think that I would be honoured to make
a commitment of two and a half hours of original programming at the start
of the uplink here. I think that with the talent at the
time that we wrote this licence we hadn't done as much research into the
community as we have now. I feel confident that we
would be able to make that commitment at the top of networking this station
here.

2800 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Mr. Farmer, unfortunately you missed my discussion
on the first day about people amending
their applications at the hearing and how we would maintain the integrity
of the hearing if we allowed people to amend their
applications as time went on.

2801 Now, should you wish to apply to amend you are certainly free to do
that and the other parties are certainly free to object to
it, and we will then decide whether or not we would accept your amendment.
I mean that's the only way we could handle that. I
apologize, but I don't see any other way that we could maintain the
integrity of our process.

2802 MR. FARMER: No. I understand. I always seem to get myself in trouble
here. I have done it again. Thank you.

2803 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And you recognize that I am a lawyer.

2804 And back at lawyer things, my colleague, Commissioner Williams,
referred to the native broadcasting policy and it is stated
that the undertaking must be owned and controlled by a non-profit
organization, whose structure provides for board membership
by the native population of the region served period.

2805 Is it your view that having one member on your board is in compliance
and if you were given a Calgary station having one
member on your board from the Calgary region would be in compliance with
the policy?

2806 MR. FARMER: It's a fairly unique situation that we are proposing to
you, Commissioner Cram. I feel that a small revision
certainly is in line with the policy. It is pretty outdated. I think you
wrote that back.

2807 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I don't disagree with that.

2808 My point is are you asking for an exemption or do you think you are in
compliance?

2809 MR. FARMER: I believe it's in compliance with the effort that we have
here, especially with our circle of advisors that we
are proposing for the Calgary community here is representative of having
their very own board in a way. If you look at the
advisory as a local board, one could relate that they will indeed be the
one directing the content and the development of the
service here in Calgary.

2810 MR. KENNEDY: I understand your question and I agree with Gary. The way
we are structuring our organization and
operation and our community accountability clearly indicates that we have
probably more than any broadcast organization
because of the nature of the urban aboriginal community and because of what
we mean by an advisory circle. It's a complete
inclusive community process.

2811 So board membership is one thing, but also membership in the society
and the organization and that will be dictated by that
structure with the advisory circles.

2812 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I respect the inclusiveness and the issue of the
board. All I am asking is do you believe you are
in compliance with the policy or if you are not do you ask for an
exemption. That's all I want to know. You believe you are in
compliance?

2813 MR. FARMER: Yes.

2814 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And that would be by adding the one member, Ms
Buffalo, that you were suggesting you
would?

2815 MR. FARMER: And the combination of the local Calgary advisory circle.

2816 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Commissioner Williams asked you why you, AVR,
should be licensed ahead of Golden West.
You initially, I believe, talked about the size of the community and so
that brings me right to why didn't you apply in Regina?

2817 MR. FARMER: We will.

2818 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Wait. Why didn't you apply in Regina? There is a
population of at least, I believe, 50,000 in the
city, compared to 15,000 here in the city. And when you talk about the area
served, 40,000, I am going to suggest to you that it is
probably 70,000.

2819 So using the same argument you said to us about Golden West, why would
you not have applied in my hometown first?

2820 MR. FARMER: We are applying in every major urban centre in this
country. Calgary just happened to roll out first.

2821 MR. KENNEDY: If I may, Commissioner, your reference to 15,000 in
Calgary, I am --

2822 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It's the census data that we have. I recognize it
could be --

2823 MR. KENNEDY: Our reference point is 40,000 is a conservative figure,
as indicated by the urban aboriginal organizations,
those represented here, as well as the community service of the local
government and the province.

2824 We think the number of urban aboriginal people is significant enough
in Calgary, as well as Regina. I agree.

2825 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I appreciate your numbers for Regina. They are even
higher.

2826 MR. MacLEOD: If I could make an addition to that which I think is
directly to your question about why not in Regina. It is
not only a case that the call didn't come for Regina, but in fact we feel
blessed that the opportunity to apply came in Vancouver
and Calgary first because they are markets that can really help our network
roll faster.

2827 Regina, as much as it is a market where we will be in and we will
reach the people of that community, it is not a market that
will help the national revenues of the network to grow as fast as starting
off in the major cities. Like I said, we feel blessed that
the first three cities we are applying in happen to be perhaps the three
most lucrative and the most desirable in terms of
advertisers or anybody who wants to commit to that part of our revenue
stream.

2828 So we are glad that it came this way, but obviously we will be in
Regina as soon as we can.

2829 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I have essentially two more questions.

2830 Mr. Farmer, you were talking about we will encourage the community any
way you can to put programming on.

2831 Do you eventually see that AVR will essentially be giving up the
frequency to the community? Is that how you see things
happening?

2832 MR. FARMER: Well, you know, no. I think that we will always provide a
service here, as a repeat broadcaster for original
programming that's going to be brought to this city from all over Canada.

2833 If indeed the success in this particular city leaves that there is
room for yet another service that would take over the
morning transit or, you know, whatever amount, eight hours or 15 hours a
day, we would be here to support them and offer our
programming to fit and, you know, mould any way they see fit. We are very
open to the development of aboriginal broadcasting
everywhere, including Calgary.

2834 COMMISSIONER CRAM: You were talking, Mr. MacLeod, about programming
from the Mi'kmaq and from PQ, the
province of Quebec.

2835 Any from NCI?

2836 MR. MacLEOD: We have had discussions with NCI about doing joint
concerts, live concerts, together, perhaps during
National Aboriginal Solidarity Day. We have talked to them about linking
them into live programming. We have had a number of
discussions with them about working together.

2837 I would say that the main interest in their discussions was in linking
into Toronto, and that was the focus of their intention.
We are aware of the submission that you got from NCI, regarding this
application, but they clearly said in their application it's not
that they are -- they are not against what we are doing, as far as our
programming services go; they just have hesitations about
the process that we are using.

2838 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The question, Mr. MacLeod, was: Do you have any
specific arrangements with NCI for their
programming to go on your station in Toronto?

2839 MR. MacLEOD: We haven't actually got contracts or signed agreements
with any other party for programming; it's all
circumstance where we -- until we know we have the licence, it's not a way
we can dedicate our resources. We have, as you
can imagine -- you know. It's easy to imagine the interest that somebody in
a small community in New Brunswick would have at
seeing their programming get out across Canada and also the interest they
have in hearing programs that are produced out of
Calgary. I mean, you know, the interest is very high. But we have no
contractual arrangements with anybody.

2840 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So you don't even know, then, that the programming
is coming from the Mi'kmaq?

2841 MR. MacLEOD: No; we have actually, in our conversations with the
Mi'kmaq station in Esksone, sat with them, looked at
what they are producing and discussed which of their programs might be most
appropriate to go on the national network and -- I
mean they have in their volunteer-based environment a high turnover of
programs that didn't make sense for us at the time
because we don't even know which programs they will be producing at the
time the network is approved. But I mean I'm telling
you it's an informal arrangement, but it's -- you know, our intention is
pure. Our intention is definitely to put, you know -- we want
people in Calgary to be able to hear programming from Nova Scotia, and we
will do it.

2842 COMMISSIONER CRAM: At page 14, and knowing that you know that I know
that the native broadcasters from the three
prairie provinces have essentially the same objections to your application,
I read you to say, at the bottom of page 14 of your
application today, AVRN will work closely and share programming with these
existing native broadcasters, including the various
native radio networks and societies which operate in northern and rural
Canada.

2843 My question is: Why didn't you work with them before you came here?

2844 MR. FARMER: Well, you know, we could quote from our response that we
offered on the --

2845 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Well, you are putting it on the record, that's why
I'm --

2846 MR. FARMER: I see.

2847 We are totally open to working with them. We have been working with
them for quite some time. You know. At our
expense, we have entertained them all in Toronto for three-day meeting
conference, back in 1999, and discussions were
widespread about, you know, upstarting our national service here, and
that's exactly what we have been doing. They have known
of our plans for a long time.

2848 We haven't had a licence to really go and negotiate with them about
which programming would be best served across the
country, and we know that all the broadcasters, once we have a national
service, are going to be dedicating some resources to
getting some programming across the country. So, once we have that national
licence in hand, we are really excited about dealing
with all the native broadcasting that's going on in Canada, north or south,
and trying to deliver it to wherever we can.

2849 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So, are you talking about the network licence, then?

2850 MR. FARMER: Yes, I'm referring to the network licence.

2851 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Well, if I were to talk about the Calgary licence,
why didn't you approach all of the native
broadcasters in Alberta and come -- and I recognize you have some of them
-- and come to us with something from all of them,
including the national scene?

2852 MR. FARMER: Well, we examined the Calgary market and talked to all the
broadcasters that are in the Calgary region and
had discussions with them. I have reached out to -- if you are talking
specifically about Bert Crowfoot, I reached out to Bert
several times in an effort to distribute programming to him, and he came to
the conference that we had in 1999, there was
discussions there, but we didn't -- Bert doesn't have any interest, I mean
current interest in Calgary, so there really wasn't -- you
know, we haven't talked to any of the national -- other people that are
broadcasting, about delivery of their programming across
the country, you know.

2853 So, in terms of the Calgary region, we went to all the Calgary people
who are currently broadcasting, you know, very
serious discussions about them, about how they could fit into our plan, and
that's the truth of it.

2854 MR. KENNEDY: In addition, if I may just add quickly, we have, as you
know, through the support illustrated here, spoken,
as Mr. Farmer said, to local broadcasters who clearly indicated that they
are not serviced here, they are under-serviced, they
receive little or no support from the current aboriginal broadcasters, as
you have named and described. So we are filling a void. I
mean I think we are -- I don't mean to speak on their behalf, they can
certainly speak to that, but that's why they are here today
and look forward to supporting us and receiving the programming.

2855 COMMISSIONER CRAM: My last question is --

2856 MR. FARMER: I'm sorry. Miss Buffalo would like to add something.

2857 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay.

2858 MS BUFFALO: Thank you very much.

2859 I would like to make an additional comment in that radio is really not
new to you in the mainstream and there's -- I have
been sitting here for the last few days listening to the diverse opinions
about the airwaves and how they have controlled each
other and themselves and the market. So, you know, I think we should be
allowed the same. As aboriginal Canadians, we should
be allowed the same, to grow, to aspire to new heights in capturing those
airwaves ourselves, to have our voices heard. And no
one has a monopoly on that. Not one person has the power to control all the
voices in the universe.

2860 So, therefore, you know, if there's any dissenters -- you know, I'm
really amazed at, you know, after 25 years ago -- I was
the author and the one who initiated a proposal to have a native
communications training program set up in partnership with Grant
MacEwan College in Edmonton, which I understand now has been shut down. But
we have got 25 years' of development. We
have young people that have gone and graduated from those programs. And
where are they? And why are they not working in
the field of newspaper, radio and television arts?

2861 I think this is a natural follow-through since the Aboriginal People's
Television Network. This is a natural, you know, growth.
Second stage.

2862 Again, I say no one has a monopoly on it. It's ours and it's our oral
tradition.

2863 Thank you.

2864 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you.

2865 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

2866 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cram, since she was out of order when
she made a ruling on behalf of this panel on
the admissibility of your upgraded original programming commitment changes
and its effect on the fairness of our process -- what
we are going to do now is we are going to take a brief five- or 10-minute
recess to review this development with our legal
counsel and come back with a ruling, today, on this matter.

2867 Mr. Secretary, if you could attend as well, please.

2868 Thank you.

--- Upon recessing at 1730 / Suspension à 1730

--- Upon resuming at 1740 / Reprise à 1740

2869 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would like to take this time to call the Calgary
public hearing back to order.

2870 We left to discuss an issue and we have returned. Legal counsel will
read out our thoughts/determination on that matter.

2871 Thanks.

2872 MR. BATSTONE: Commissioner Cram, as you know, had expressed a concern
about amendments being made to the
commitments here at the hearing as part of this competitive process. This
was an issue that was discussed earlier in the hearing.

2873 I would just like to, at this point, perhaps clarify the procedural
options that are available to you.

2874 The rules of procedure provide that an application cannot be modified
after it has been Gazetted without the consent of the
Commission, in this case the panel. So of course it is open to you, if you
with to modify your proposal, to include the two and a
half hours of original programming to make that request of the Commission.

2875 Anyone who had any comments on that could of course make those
comments in the course of the other phases of this
proceeding, and the Commission would, at some point in the process, make a
decision, it might be here, to upset the hearing, it
could also just be in a decision itself.

2876 I just wanted to make sure that you are aware that you have that
option, if you wish, and just to clarify sort of where we
were on that.

2877 MR. FARMER: You are expecting a response from me as to what we would
like to do. Is that what you are --

2878 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

2879 MR. FARMER: Yes. We are still committed to the two and a half hours of
the programming as it sits in our current
application.

2880 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, Mr. Farmer. We will consider that in our
deliberation.

--- Pause / Pause

2881 MR. FARMER: I'm sorry. We have had some discussion. Mr. Kennedy will
answer this question for you.

2882 MR. KENNEDY: A communication issue here, I believe.

2883 The answer of yes is that we would like to stick with the amendment --
I know that is probably not the proper word, but to
say what Mr. Farmer had committed to earlier, which was the additional
commitment, yes.

2884 MR. BATSTONE: Just to be clear, it is two and a half hours of original
local programming.

2885 MR. KENNEDY: Yes. For Calgary.

2886 MR. FARMER: But that is what's in our application, though.

2887 MR. KENNEDY: With respect, I believe the clarification that the
Commission has made has allowed us to say yes to this
and that we will make the commitment to the two and a half hours of
original --

2888 MR. BATSTONE: Non-repeated.

2889 MR. KENNEDY: -- non-repeated content programming. Yes.

2890 Thank you for your patience in the communication area there.

2891 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Noël.

2892 Okay. Commissioner McKendry.

2893 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: I just want to be clear. You are applying to
amend your application?

2894 MR. KENNEDY: Do you know what? Now I'm having a bout of confusion and
I thought I had it in -- would we be allowed
a brief caucus to discuss this with our team here? May I make that request,
Mr. Chair?

2895 THE CHAIRPERSON: Five minutes.

2896 MR. KENNEDY: Thank you.

--- Pause / Pause

2897 MR. FARMER: I think I have the answer for you now. I'm awfully sorry.
Again, we are still new on the block here and
from time to time --

2898 I was reacting of course to what Commissioner Cram was mentioning as
when anyone says that whatever you are doing is
not good enough. I always thought that, oh, well, you always just lay
conditions on us, so I was thinking in that term, so I will be
happy, you know, as a step up, not realizing what the fallout is here.

2899 We currently do not want to adjust our application as it sits. We do
not want to appeal for an amendment to our current
application at all. We are committed to stand by that and just to let you
know that we are really committed to getting original
programming here as fast as we possibly can, and that is all we are letting
you know, that we are just going to leave our
application as it sits.

2900 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess where we will go from here, then, is you will
get your opportunity now to sum up your
application, maybe in a few minutes, maybe describing why your application
is the best use of the frequency 88.1.

2901 Mr. Farmer.

2902 MR. FARMER: We would like to start with Marilyn Buffalo.

2903 MR. BUFFALO: Commissioners, it gives me great pleasure to have played
a major part in applying for this Aboriginal
Voices Radio Station in Calgary. This gives our community a chance to
strike a unique business partnership with Newcap and
other local corporations.

2904 As a mother and a grandmother and as a national leader, I am very
encouraged by this initiative, particularly since it
concerns our children, who make up the majority of our population. I
believe that it is now time that we, and our generation, start
investing in our youth and teaching them to understand the power of voice.

2905 Our children make as high as 80 per cent of the population 30 years
and under, and I think that is terribly unserviced. In
some of our communities across this country, I don't think I need to go
into it, you know what the problems are. In Calgary, in
particular, with the unique needs of our children here and their
educational requirements, the educational programming potential is
unlimited.

2906 I believe that as educators it is time that we start putting our
traditions into practice and start speaking and practising our
oral traditions. Our traditional role as women, as our God-given right, is
to teach and to heal. I believe that the power of voice has
the ability to do that. We will claim our role back as educators and healers.

2907 I believe that radio provides us an opportunity, a natural
opportunity, to partner and start partnering with institutions and
engaging the mainstream society. Thank you very much.

2908 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Buffalo.

2909 Mr. Secretary.

2910 MR. FARMER: I'm sorry, Commissioner Williams. We have two other
comments.

2911 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Please proceed.

2912 MR. KENNEDY: Thank you, Commissioners. I will keep it brief.

2913 As you heard at the outset in our presentation, we recognize that in
fact what we are doing is we are running a radio
business, albeit a not-for-profit society, accountable to the community and
we have set in place structures to do this, working with
legal counsel as well as financial project management, KPMG, and of most
paramount importance, the local aboriginal
community.

2914 Our business structure will ensure accountability to our broadcast
partners, our sponsors, advertisers, the aboriginal
communities and the Government of Canada.

2915 Thank you.

2916 MR. FARMER: Finally, Commissioners, I would like to add that for so
many years we have been wards of the Canadian
government. I am asking both the broadcasters that sit in this room and
yourselves to begin to make room for us in this spectrum
of media that we want to participate in. I believe it is every Canadian's
responsibility to make this available to us so that we can
make our lives better.

2917 We have evaluated the talent that we have in this city and we also
evaluated across the country and we are very proud of
the skills and talents that we have as a people. We feel confident that we
will give you a wonderful service.

2918 We are honoured with the degree of local support that we have garnered
here at this application. The support that we have
on this panel is evidence to that and testament.

2919 We have a great willingness to participate in this process to ensure
that we protect the airwaves for our people right across
the country, from sea to sea. That's our objective. Calgary is the perfect
location to make the first start in establishing our
network service.

2920 You know, you have really helped us out by granting a licence to
television northern Canada, for the Aboriginal People's
Television Network, to all the broadcasters in the north who have had
service for so long, but we in the south have gone without,
and the time has come. This is where the major markets are. We know that we
can't establish the kind of service that we want to
establish without the support of your panel and without the support of the
broadcasters in this room.

2921 If we would like to have 88.1, it is time for the other broadcasters
to make room for us and for them to move to the AM or
to other markets and other areas that will satisfy their needs so that they
can make room for the aboriginal people. We feel
strongly about this.

2922 We realize that the CBC, in its national application of licensing
across the country, probably has four options here, I believe:
three English language and possibly one French language working on AM and
FM. The amount of local programming that they
are doing originating out of Calgary is not any more than we are promising
at this current hearing. So we feel good about what
we have presented to you and we hope that you will make the next step.

2923 And licensing AVR in Toronto, of course we thank you for that as well.
We would like to look forward to the licensing of
our network application of course and the provisions here in Calgary; we
look forward to that.

2924 And we will see you in Vancouver in three weeks.

2925 Thank you.

2926 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Farmer.

2927 Perhaps it could be from sea to sea to sea in recognition of your
northern partners.

2928 MR. FARMER: You're very right. Excuse me.

2929 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Secretary or counsel, are there any
administrative matters that need to be taken care of?

2930 MR. BATSTONE: One thing perhaps you could do is, if you have a copy of
the chart that you could give to us, perhaps not
life size --

--- Laughter / Rires

2931 MR. BATSTONE: -- we could put a copy of that on the record as well.

2932 MR. FARMER: Of course. Thank you. We will, yes.
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