3384 So we will now call what existed as Intervention No. 1 in the Agenda.

--- Pause / Pause

3385 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.

3386 MR. BURNSIDE: Good morning, Mr. Crowfoot.

3387 Please proceed with your intervention.

INTERVENTION / INTERVENTION

3388 MR. CROWFOOT: Good morning. I would like to apologize for being a few
minutes late. We drove in from Edmonton this
morning.

3389 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are running a little ahead of schedule, so we
understand that.

3390 MR. CROWFOOT: Okay.

3391 Oki!

3392 Welcome to the territory of the Blackfoot Confederacy. I am Bert
Crowfoot from Siksika First Nation which is located 50
miles east of here.

3393 I once did an interview for Buffalo Spirit with Ruth Brass, who is my
elder from Siksika. Ruth told me that when I called
her for an interview she made an offering to the Creator, asking that her
words be the truth, that she would not tell lies, for what
she had to say was important to whoever was listening to or reading Buffalo
Spirit.

3394 This morning, I also made an offering, asking that the words that I
have to say are the truth, for these words are very
important about the future of aboriginal communications in Canada.

3395 I am the CEO of the Aboriginal Multi Media Society, AMMSA, which
publishes Windspeaker, a national aboriginal
publication started in 1993. We have three provincial publications: Alberta
Sweetgrass, Saskatchewan Sage and B.C. Raven's
Eye. We also have published Buffalo Spirit, which is a spiritual-cultural
publication. We have Aboriginal Media Services, which is
an advertising agency for a lot of the native publications across Canada.
We also have CFWE-FM, which is a radio station that
covers almost every First Nation and Metis settlement in Alberta.

3396 In 1983, 85 per cent of our budget relied on government funding. In
1987, the provincial government told us they were
phasing out the aboriginal communications program over three years. At that
time we set a goal to become self-sufficient in five
years.

3397 In 1990, the federal government cut the Native Communications Program
and we lost approximately 75 per cent of our
funding. Nine of the eleven aboriginal newspapers died that year, but
because of our goal of self-sufficiency we had a solid
foundation to survive and to build on.

3398 Today we have an annual budget of $2 million, 15 per cent of which we
receive in government funding. We generate
approximately 85 per cent of our own revenue. If the federal government
were to cut the Northern Native Broadcast Access
Program tomorrow, we would be able to survive.

3399 Some would say that we are intervening because we fear the
competition. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am
involved in coaching competitive softball and I love competition.

3400 My philosophy regarding competition is that competition should be
viewed as the opportunity to be pushed to your limit by a
worthy opponent in order to grow and reach your full potential. The
opponent cannot be viewed as the enemy, someone to be
feared, but rather as the positive resistance who will provide you with the
opposition that will challenge you and promote growth.
The greater the resistance or challenge, the greater the opportunity for
growth.

3401 I have even offered to assist my competition in becoming stronger. In
softball I work in the off season with opposing
pitchers so that we can have a strong league.

3402 Another example is published in the October 2000 editorial column of
John Lagimodiere, publisher of Eagle Feather News in
Saskatchewan. He writes:

"As I entered the business world, I was like a ship without a rudder. No
clue as to what I was doing, nor any clue as to how to
proceed, or if it was even worthwhile. Out of the fog came Bert Crowfoot,
publisher of Windspeaker and the Saskatchewan
Sage. I met him at a journalism conference in Seattle and he was very glad
to help me. This gentleman is my biggest competition
in the province and yet he was willing to offer advice to his other
operation and words of support for paper. The only reason he
gave is that by having strong competition, they will get better as well. I
admired that."

3403 At this time I would like to thank you for allowing me the opportunity
to present to the Commission on behalf of the
Aboriginal Multi-Media Society, as well as three other aboriginal
broadcasters who support AMMSA's position; Native
Communications Incorporated in Manitoba, Missinipi Broadcasting Corporation
in Saskatchewan, as well as Northern Native
Broadcasting Terrace in British Columbia.

3404 Their letters should be in the Commission's possession, but I have
brought copies with me.

3405 Intervening to the CRTC opposing the application submitted by Mr. Gary
Farmer and Aboriginal Voices Radio for a
broadcasting licence to serve the City of Calgary, Alberta is not something
that we do lightly. It is done with a great deal of
consideration and reflects our concern with the future of aboriginal
broadcasting throughout Canada.

3406 Simply stated, it is our belief that Aboriginal Voices Radio has not
yet proven its capabilities as a broadcaster. It has only
recently received CRTC approval for its operation in Toronto -- which AMMSA
supported. Aboriginal Voices Radio should be
applying all of its focus and resources to meeting the obligations
stipulated under the terms of its licence. Instead it is undertaking
very ambitious plans for expansion.

3407 We believe that Aboriginal Voices Radio must be provided the
opportunity to succeed in Toronto and only at such time as it
has developed an audience and broadcast experience should any plans for
further expansion be considered. As a new and
inexperienced broadcaster, Aboriginal Voices Radio will have great
difficulty simultaneously developing a single viable station and
establishing a network.

3408 Aboriginal Voices Radio filed a response to AMMSA's letter of
intervention and there is material in that response which
further develops our position.

3409 Much has been made of the survey conducted on behalf of Aboriginal
Voices Radio.

3410 AMMSA will not dispute that the need for an aboriginal radio service
in Calgary or any urban areas exists. What we are
stating is that the Aboriginal Voices Radio survey has not proven that they
are the broadcaster capable of meeting that need.

3411 It is AMMSA's understanding the Aboriginal Voices Radio survey asked
1,500 urban Canadians if they perceived a need
for a new national aboriginal radio service. Of these 1,500 people, how
many are aboriginal? How many of these people are from
Calgary? How many stated that they would tune in to the new service?

3412 This survey is simply not a reliable gauge as to the commercial
viability of the new aboriginal radio service which Aboriginal
Voices intends to operate. The real survey will be conducted once the
broadcasts begin and listeners make their feelings known
by using the tuner on their radios.

3413 What would the results be if a similar survey was conducted to gauge
people's perceptions for the need for a new national
aboriginal magazine? The level of need would be just as high as the radio
survey.

3414 The irony is that there was a publication filling this need,
Aboriginal Voices Magazine, which suspended publishing in
December of 1999.

3415 Aboriginal Voices Magazine was, as Mr. Farmer states in his response,
an award-winning publication and received much
acclaim. Yet after six years of funding and government programs, it could
not become financially viable in a desirable location like
Toronto where many of the advertising agencies and large corporations are
based. This reflects directly on the business
capabilities of management.

3416 Aboriginal Voices Magazine should have become self-sufficient in six
years.

3417 Contrary to Mr. Farmer's claim, resourcefulness and perseverance, as
well as awards, while admirable, still do not pay the
bills and could not save Aboriginal Voices Magazine.

3418 Mr. Farmer's proven skills are in lobbying and securing grants, but
the skills necessary to become financially self-reliant are
yet to be proved.

3419 Mr. Farmer's letter of response also uses critical acclaim for the
television program "Buffalo Tracks" produced by
Aboriginal Voices in support of the financial stability of the radio
venture. "Buffalo Tracks" is only produced as long as production
funds are secured from the Aboriginal People's Television Network. Without
those funds, "Buffalo Tracks" would cease to exist.

3420 We are further concerned that the Aboriginal Voices Radio application
for Calgary contains serious overstatements.

3421 Aboriginal Voices Radio has not developed a working relationship with
existing broadcasters, certainly not the ones west of
Ontario.

3422 The only time Mr. Farmer contacted AMMSA was to secure letters of
support for Aboriginal Voices Radio applications
first for a temporary licence and then for a full licence for Toronto. Mr.
Farmer never contacted AMMSA regarding his current
licence applications, network, Calgary and Vancouver.

3423 Several years ago Mr. Farmer was working on a nationally distributed
radio program consisting of a live feed for the
Aboriginal Festival Powwow held at the SkyDome. He approached AMMSA with
the idea less than two weeks before the
scheduled air date and was upset when we refused.

3424 We refused because we were expected to pre-empt our existing program
to make room for the day long feed without any
compensation. Mr. Farmer became agitated when his program was refused
because he had sold his feed to sponsors with the
assurance of a national broadcast. Had AMMSA been contacted earlier and had
the necessary arrangements been made, we
would have considered working with Mr. Farmer.

3425 After this, Mr. Farmer did not contact us until his request for
letters of support.

3426 In December 1999, while I was in Toronto, I was approached by one of
Mr. Farmer's representatives who suggested that I
meet with him. I made myself available but the meeting never took place.

3427 Mr. Farmer states in his response that a consultation process has been
undertaken with aboriginal broadcasters and uses his
Media Conference in 1999 as an example. He states:

"In June of 1999, at the University of Toronto, Aboriginal Voices held a
National Aboriginal Media Conference that included
attended by Mr. Crowfoot, as well as many others."

3428 I would like to remind Mr. Farmer that in fact I was not present at
his Media Conference, not in 1999 nor in 2000.

3429 The only media workshop I was asked to attend was one schedule for
June 2000 and that was dependent on funds being
secured by Mr. Farmer's group for travel costs.

3430 I was advised only days prior that the funds never materialized and
the meeting as originally proposed to me by Mr. Farmer
never took place. I know that Marty Bellentyne from Missinipi Broadcasting
Corporation in Saskatchewan also did not attend for
the same reason.

3431 AMMSA is not sure how Aboriginal Voices Radio will establish a working
relationship with other aboriginal broadcasters
after a licence is granted, especially if not attempt has been made prior
to licence application.

3432 Another overstatement consists of the reference to one of the
Aboriginal Voices Radio Board Members as an AMMSA
sponsored international award winner. AMMSA sponsors many aboriginal groups
throughout Canada. One such group is the
Indigenous Arts Service Organization, IASO, who annually present aboriginal
media awards in British Columbia. AMMSA
provides funds to the IASO to present an award. IASO selects the recipient
and AMMSA is not involved in the selection
process. To suggest that a recipient of one of these awards is somehow a
recommendation of AMMSA is simply overstated.

3433 Let's move on to the specifics of the Calgary application. The
Aboriginal Voices radio application does not fully consider the
implications of its rebroadcast of Toronto programming for a Calgary
audience.

3434 For example, the Toronto morning show will be heard in Calgary between
4:00 and 7:00 a.m. in the morning. The afternoon
drive home show will feature one hour of non-aboriginal multilingual
programming between 4:00 and 5:00 p.m.

3435 MR. BURNSIDE: Mr. Crowfoot, your time is up. Could you wrap up please.

3436 MR. CROWFOOT: Okay. I have just got a couple more.

3437 On page 14 of the Aboriginal Voices Radio for Calgary application
dated May 23, 2000 it states the budget for operations at
$50,000 per year. This figure is repeated in a subsequent letter to the
CRTC responding to more detailed questions dated July 25,
2000 on page 3 under the hearing "Marketing".

3438 However, in the same letter on page 5, the operating expenses are now
listed at $75,000. What is it, $50,000 or $75,000?

3439 The sense of urgency with which Aboriginal Voices Radio is making its
expansion plans is also cause for concern.

3440 A great deal of responsibility will be entrusted to any individual or
group claiming the aboriginal title and using it to develop a
broadcast enterprise. This is particularly the case when non-aboriginal
people who listen to the program will be passing judgment
not only on the aboriginal broadcaster, but on all aboriginal people.

3441 Care must be taken to ensure that National Aboriginal Radio Network is
successful because should it fail it will cause
damage not only to aboriginal broadcasters, but to all aboriginal people.

3442 There are existing models where slow and steady growth has been
undertaken with very successful results. APTN is one
example. The idea for APTN is not new and took many years to develop. APTN
is comprised of many aboriginal television
groups and producers who gained valuable experience independently and then
pooled their resources in Television Northern
Canada. As TVNC they further gained experience and insight and only after
many years did the individual operations group
together to create a truly national aboriginal television service,
reflecting the varied interests and culture of the aboriginal people.

3443 It would be wise for a national radio network to follow a similar
model of careful planning.

3444 If we must error, let us error on the side of caution rather than speed.

3445 Aboriginal Voices Radio needs to build their foundation in Toronto.
Any plans for expansion must be based on a solid
foundation. The more solid the foundation, the likelihood of success and
benefit for all aboriginal people.

3446 In closing, I would like to say we are willing to work with Mr.
Farmer, that we have scheduled a meeting tomorrow and on
Friday with the four western aboriginal communications groups from western
Canada. We will be meeting in Edmonton and there
what we are doing is sharing resources. We are opening our books. We are
exchanging ideas on marketing, on sales, on
administration and all those different aspects of running a broadcast
operation. This meeting has been scheduled, like I said, for
tomorrow.

3447 We are not saying don't give the licence to Aboriginal Voices Radio.
What we are saying is let's wait until they prove
themselves that they can operate a successful business operation and only
at that time should they be considered for a national
network.

3448 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Crowfoot, for your presentation and
comments this morning.

3449 A couple of things strike me. We just heard Mr. Farmer's application
yesterday, in fact, and many, many Albertans were
with him from the aboriginal community, such as Marilyn Buffalo, from the
Sampson Cree; Margaret Rider, from the Nakota
Nation, a radio broadcaster; Raymond Littlechief, for the Aboriginal
Society for Aboriginal Youth; Mark MacLeod, with AVR;
Leon Anthony, an independent Alberta radio and television producer; Michele
Thrush, an aboriginal artist from the Calgary area.
I guess also in the audience is Shane Breaker of the Siksika Nation
Communications, which is where you are with.

3450 So I guess I want to explore your intervention. Your intervention
quite clearly states that Albertans and Calgarians of
aboriginal ancestry have not been consulted or involved in this process, so
--

3451 MR. CROWFOOT: What we were saying with the survey, as indicated to us,
was that it said "urban Canadians", it didn't
say "aboriginal people". So we were asking the question.

3452 Also, when we first started broadcasting in Alberta, we went out and
asked people, "Do you want an aboriginal radio
station?", and the answer is, obviously, yes, because something is better
than nothing. But what happens in two or three years, if
this thing fails, then there's nothing again.

3453 What we are saying is -- and we are not saying no to it because we
support the idea and we are willing to work with
somebody at developing the idea. Our concern is that they haven't proven
themselves, and when they do attempt to set up a
network, we want it to be successful. The gist of our whole presentation is
that we don't think they are ready yet. They haven't
proved themselves. Any expertise that -- or any ventures that they have
worked on in the past have all been generated or
sponsored through funds rather than through -- rather than using the
business sector, they have gone for the funding sector. So,
those are our concerns.

3454 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you see an opportunity for Calgary aboriginal
business people to be involved in a national board
of AVR should the licence be approved?

3455 One of the conditions of AVR being licensed is they must have
representation from the market that they serve.

3456 MR. CROWFOOT: I can see it but, you know, we have had the response,
when we solicited aboriginal businesses in
Alberta -- I mean we have 18 years' of experience contacting these business
people and, yes, they are more than happy to
support the idea. But when it comes time to ask them for advertising
dollars, it comes, but not as much as we need to run an
operation.

3457 The support will be there at the beginning. And the aboriginal
broadcasters ourselves know that there is a need for a
service. So we are not disputing that point. Our concerns are the business
side and the track record.

3458 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess my question is in the area of the business
side and the track record.

3459 Do you see a way that the business expertise and track records of
proven organizations such as you have described can be
beneficial to this application?

3460 Would that alleviate some of your concerns if they we involved?

3461 MR. CROWFOOT: It would. But the concern I have is in the
administration rather than at the board.

3462 As you know, a lot of boards meet once a month, once every two months,
once every three months, and the board should be
policy making rather hands on, and for a board member who has that
experience to come in and get involved in a
day-to-operations of a not-for-profit society is something that is frowned
at all not-for-profit organizations.

3463 I would say it would help. But that expertise needs to be in the
office; it needs to be in the day-to-day operation.

3464 Now, if a CEO who has been in the industry for many years is brought
on board then, yes, that would alleviate a lot of
concerns.

3465 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I am now going to talk about the area of their
application that deals with them being up and
running. A proven radio station operator.

3466 I don't know if you heard much of the discussion yesterday afternoon
but they have indicated to us that they have held off
implementing that for reasons of a court challenge that affected the
Toronto radio hearing.

3467 Were you aware of that being the reason as to why they had not --

3468 MR. CROWFOOT: No; what he indicated in his response to our
intervention was that they had a year to get the operation
up and running. There was no mention of a -- I believe it's in your letter
of response to the letter that I gave. So there is no
mention of a court challenge in that response.

3469 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Your intervention states that it's filed for a
variety of reasons, including -- and we will work
our way through each of the four or five main ones here.

3470 There's no clear need for a national aboriginal radio service as this
need is largely being met by current broadcasters.

3471 In your remarks this morning, you talked about CFWE, which is a radio
station that covers almost every First Nation and
Métis settlement in Alberta.

3472 MR. CROWFOOT: Right.

3473 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you have remote facilities in each of these
communities or adjoining communities?

3474 MR. CROWFOOT: We broadcast on satellite and we downlink to 50 sites
across the province and we rebroadcast on small
10-watt transmitters in the majority of these sites. Over the course of the
last four years, we have started upgrading our sites. We
put in a 12-kilowatt site up at Juice Art. There's a 12-kilowatt site down
in Buffalo, up in Porcupine Hills, which covers all of
southern Alberta. We have a 100-kilowatt site that's on the CRTC -- it's
before the CRTC -- for the Moose Hills area, which
would cover all of northeastern Alberta. We have other sites that we have
in the future for expansion to cover the communities
that are just outside of Edmonton that cover the communities that are just
outside of Calgary. We have helped a number of the
local community radio stations set up their operations, the one in Morley,
the one in Siksika. We did help. They are on their own
right now. We don't broadcast there at this time.

3475 THE CHAIRPERSON: If the AVR application is not approved, you made a
comment this morning that maybe the time isn't
right, maybe more time needs to pass by, it's an opportunity that only
comes along once in a while and we want to make sure, in
your words, that it's successful.

3476 MR. CROWFOOT: I think we have to look at the model of the Aboriginal
People's Television Network, as I indicated
earlier.

3477 How that operation started was they were granted funds under the
Northern Native Broadcast Access Program. They
began doing local programming which is similar -- you can make references
or commonalities with the Toronto operation. Then,
once they decided that they wanted to share programming, they started to
get together and started to pool their resources and, as
a result, TV Northern Canada came about. After that, they felt that there
was a need to expand across Canada. And when that
happened, that's a result of how the Aboriginal People's Television Network
came about, and it took approximately 10 years to
develop that model.

3478 THE CHAIRPERSON: In one of the letters that we have received in the
file from Canada's First Nation Radio, dated
October 24th, 2000, it states, in part, that four western aboriginal
groups, together, have approximately 150 rebroadcast sites in
western Canada, and the main organizations for each province are Native
Communications Incorporated, Manitoba; Missinipi
Broadcast Incorporation, Saskatchewan; Aboriginal Multi Media Society, in
Alberta; and Northern Native Broadcasting, British
Columbia.

3479 Have any of these four groups been involved in the AVR application?

3480 MR. CROWFOOT: We were all involved -- not in this application. We all
gave letter support for the Toronto one when it
was applied for.

3481 THE CHAIRPERSON: When you talk about the TVNC evolving to APTN model,
do you envision these four groups, plus
similar groups in other provinces eventually, working together to create
this network?

3482 MR. CROWFOOT: The reference that I can use right now is "braided
sweetgrass".

3483 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

3484 MR. CROWFOOT: You know, you have one group out there trying to do it
and what happens is it's not very strong. You
get many groups working together and it's really strong.

3485 So, as I mentioned earlier, we are meeting in Edmonton. We have, in
the past five or six years, talked about working
together. We have shared wrap-around programming from each area. What I
would like to see, somewhere down the road, is
that all the groups will want to set up a network get together, work
together.

3486 I just received a call, or a letter, from a colleague First Nation
about a week ago and their concern was that we produce 68
hours of original programming per week at CFWA.

3487 What they want is they want more Dene language programming because
they have a real concern for loss of language.
There are six language groups in Alberta -- main language groups. There is
Siksika, Stoney, Tsuut'ina, Cree, Chip, Dene. All of
these groups, what they want is they want programming in their languages.

3488 From what I understand, there is two and a half hours allocated for
local programming from Edmonton or from Alberta in
this log that he has developed, for the programming log that he has
developed for the week. Two and a half hours is not enough
time to address those needs. I mean, we have South American music in there.
All the energy should be focused on producing
aboriginal programming for Canada trying to address those needs.

3489 In the future we are looking at split programming but we have to get
our own uplink. Once we get our own uplink we can
split programming so we can do languages in Siksika or in Blackfoot, in
Cree, in Dene at the same time. We can pull
programming from Missinipi, which does two hours of Dene a day, and send it
to those specific communities that are requesting
Dene.

3490 THE CHAIRPERSON: Which tribe speaks Dene?

3491 MR. CROWFOOT: Dene is the people located in northern Canada. They are
not Inuit but they are between the Inuit and
the Cree.

3492 THE CHAIRPERSON: So they would be Slaveys or Chipeywan or Gwitchin.

3493 MR. CROWFOOT: Slaveys, Dog Rib --

3494 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Just a clarification. I'm from the north.

3495 These four groups that I was referring to in this letter from
Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia, are
there similar groups in the other provinces?

3496 MR. CROWFOOT: There are seven other groups across Canada and the
Northwest Territories.

3497 THE CHAIRPERSON: These groups all work together at APTN?

3498 MR. CROWFOOT: On December 2nd the APTN board will be expanding it to
include all the groups of the Northern
Native Broadcast Access Program. Currently, there is a group of seven that
is located south of 60. What we do is we have four
boards to represent the seven organizations. They are expanding that board
base to include all seven.

3499 THE CHAIRPERSON: You refer to meetings that are happening at some
point in the future. Do you see a way that all
these groups could not work together with AVR to make this project a
reality? The project I'm referring to is I guess the Calgary
station establishment of the Toronto station and some other aspects of
AVR's plan.

3500 MR. CROWFOOT: I think that it is something that we need to discuss. As
I had mentioned earlier, there had been meetings
set up. We were invited but finally didn't come through, apparently, where
all of these things were supposed to be discussed.

3501 We are meeting in Edmonton tomorrow, on our own cost, to work, first
of all, at making sure that our individual societies
have a strong foundation. Each of these societies has a strength in certain
areas. Some of it is fund raising. Some of it is in
administration. Some of it is finance. Some of it is in marketing and
sales. What we are doing is we are sitting down, we are
sharing that knowledge that is around the table, and what we are doing is
making our individual society stronger.

3502 In order to address the needs, such as the letter I received from Cold
Lake about Dene programming, we will talk about
sharing programming. But I think it has to evolve to the point where
Aboriginal Voices Radio would be part of the group that
would look at a national network. We serve, like I said, all of Alberta
with the exception of Calgary and Edmonton, but those
communities will be covered in the future, three or four years down the
road, when we do improve our distribution.

3503 NCI is now located in Winnipeg. Missinipi has plans for broadcasting
in Regina and Saskatoon. So those are things that we
are looking at down the road.

3504 We don't want to, I guess, take too big a step at first and try to
expand into those places. You know, if we can't meet the
financial obligations then nothing is gained.

3505 THE CHAIRPERSON: If Aboriginal Voices was not given a licence, do you
see these groups working together over the
next few months or years to develop a similar type network but with more of
a grassroots foundation -- Sweetgrass --

3506 MR. CROWFOOT: I can see that happening in the future because we are
going in that direction right now. But, like I said,
it is something that -- we are using the model of APTN. It is something
that we know. I mean I would love to have it tomorrow,
but I don't think it is feasible. When we do try it we want to make sure
that it does succeed.

3507 On the print side, I have had a lot of competition from other
aboriginal newspapers that are set up and what happens is they
come in, they set up, they sell advertising, they burn the client. Then,
since I have been around 18 years publishing our
newspapers, I'm the guy that is left having to explain to these clients
that aboriginal communications or aboriginal newspapers are
a good business. People are saying: well, I got burned once; I don't want
to get burned a second time, because the publication
didn't come through with what it promised.

3508 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

3509 You talk about the financial base of AVR being precarious. Yesterday
they told us they have a $750,000 rainy day fund, so
to speak.

3510 MR. CROWFOOT: Interest-free loan, from what I understand.

3511 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

3512 MR. CROWFOOT: It's not a grant; it's a loan.

3513 THE CHAIRPERSON: But they had the cash available, I guess.

3514 MR. CROWFOOT: Like I said, based on past track record, I have a
concern about the ability to generate enough revenue
to cover the current costs of running an operation without having to --
managing debt.

3515 THE CHAIRPERSON: Even in the largest radio market in Canada, the
Toronto radio market? I mean Calgary is a very
lucrative market as well, is what we have heard throughout the hearing.

3516 MR. CROWFOOT: That's exactly what I'm saying. When Aboriginal Voices
Magazine failed in the largest market in
Canada, does that give me ease of conscience that he is going to do better
in smaller markets like Calgary?

3517 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is the print market as lucrative as the broadcast
market in either of those locations?

3518 MR. CROWFOOT: It should be enough to cover your operating costs for
the year.

3519 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

3520 I think that covers the questions that I have developed from hearing
your presentation this morning and reading your
interventions.

3521 Do the Commissioners have any questions?

3522 Commissioner Cram.

3523 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you for coming.

3524 You say the board is expanding with APTN and it is Mr. Nadeau of NCI
who is going to become the chair. Is that not
correct?

3525 MR. CROWFOOT: He is the chair at this moment.

3526 COMMISSIONER CRAM: He is now. Yes.

3527 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes.

3528 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So, Mr. McLeod, who is --

3529 THE CHAIRPERSON: The president.

3530 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I'm sorry. President?

3531 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that Mr. Catholic is the chair and Mr.
Nadeau is the president.

3532 MR. CROWFOOT: The chief executive officer.

3533 COMMISSIONER CRAM: The head guy.

3534 MR. CROWFOOT: It's not that title but it's something like that.

3535 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes.

3536 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

3537 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And you attached Mr. McLeod's letter from NCI. He
is now the interim general manager.

3538 I wanted to ask if you could in some way address the last paragraph of
his letter. Do you have it with you? I can give it to
you here.

3539 MR. CROWFOOT: If you can just read it to me. Then I will address it.

3540 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Sure.

"NCI believes there should be a consultation process with all native
broadcasting societies in Canada before such an application is
reviewed or even considered." (As read)

3541 And it is the last sentence that I am more interested in:

"As Aboriginal people, we recognize and respect the tribal territories of
our people. The CRTC application should also recognize
this factor in relation to designated radio territories." (As read)

3542 I am interested in that and what it really means. Forgive me. I'm not
that knowledgeable.

3543 MR. CROWFOOT: What that means, is that in the past -- for example, we
have one community in northern Alberta that
wanted programming from Missinipi. They were right on the border. They are
one of the Dene communities. What they did was
they asked if Missinipi could come in and rebroadcast in that area.

3544 Missinipi called us and said, "There is a community in Alberta that
wants Dene programming. Can we go in there?" We
gave them the approval to go in there because we weren't -- we took ours
out when they went in. So that's how that works.

3545 What we have done in the past is -- like I said, we are meeting
tomorrow. We are opening our organizations and we are
saying "This is how our board works", and everybody more or less gives the
same sharing.

3546 So what we are doing is, we are more or less developing the area
within our territory. Now our territory is not tribal, I think
is what you would say, but it is still -- when aboriginal people travel
across Canada and when they are in someone else's territory,
usually what they do is they respect the rights and customs that take place
in that territory.

3547 For example, out in the west, any time that we have presentations we
always go clockwise. In Mohawk territory they
always go counterclockwise. Some sit down, some stand up. When you have a
national meeting it gets kind of confusing at times,
because you don't know whether to stand up, sit down or go this way or that
way.

--- Laughter / Rires

3548 MR. CROWFOOT: So you have to -- but you still try to respect what is
happening in those territories.

3549 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very much.

3550 Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3551 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Commissioner Cram.

3552 Maybe just one more question before I turn you over to Commissioner
McKendry.

3553 Does your organization CFWE, have intentions or aspirations for
applying for a Calgary radio licence should the AVR
application be denied?

3554 MR. CROWFOOT: No, not at this time.

3555 As I had mentioned earlier, what we are doing is we are focusing on
the First Nations of Alberta. There happens to be a
community outside of Calgary that is Tsuut'ina, there happens to be a
community outside of Edmonton that is Enoch(ph), and
once we start broadcasting in those communities there is going to be, I
guess, a carryover of the signal into the cities.

3556 Our intention is not to focus on the cities, or else we would have
done that years ago because that is where the economic
powers would be. What we have had to do is sell the strength of our
programming to advertisers, even though they couldn't hear
the signal.

3557 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, I misled you. I'm going to ask you one
more question.

3558 Many comments have been made about the move to urban centres by
aboriginal people from rural. Could you comment on
that?

3559 I will give you a -- I think in your presentation you said 25.8
thousand aboriginal people live in the Calgary marketplace.
Yesterday we heard an estimate of 40 --

3560 MR. CROWFOOT: I didn't make that, I don't think.

3561 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay. In the written interventions, then, one of
the intervenors has.

3562 Yesterday we hear approximately 40,000 aboriginal people live in the
Calgary market. So I guess many of your stations are
small community-based radio stations, many --

3563 MR. CROWFOOT: Okay. What we have is a network of -- we have a network
licence, so normally what we do is we
don't apply for a new licence. What we do is get amendments to the licence
to include different areas, since the network licence
is already in place.

3564 As I mentioned, when we set up our intention was to reach all the
First Nation communities and Metis settlements that were
in the province.

3565 We understand that there is a large urban population and, like I said,
we are not targeting those audiences, but they will
receive some sort of feedback when we do go into those two communities that
are located right on the outskirts of the cities.

3566 I mean, we could have gone in five years ago and set up transmitters
in those communities and there would be signals in
Calgary and Edmonton right now just because of the -- I mean, you can't
control radio waves. You can't stop them at the
outskirts of the city and say "Sorry, the reserve ends here and the city
starts there so there is no signal going to the city". That just
happens.

3567 If we were looking at applying for licences, we would have done that
10 years ago, but instead our focus was on the
communities that are out there.

3568 We have intentionally held back on those communities because we had to
make sure that we didn't infringe on the
mainstream broadcasters that are in the city. We had to look at what
frequency, et cetera, et cetera.

3569 So those are things that -- like I said, it is something that we have
looked at down the road, but it wasn't one of our
immediate goals and it is something that we are looking at down the road.

3570 THE CHAIRPERSON: So currently, if I hear you correctly, Edmonton and
Calgary urban and aboriginal community does
not have service then?

3571 MR. CROWFOOT: Not aboriginal programming, no.

3572 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

3573 Commissioner McKendry.

3574 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: My first question follows on Commissioner
Williams question. I just wanted to make
sure I understood the competitive relationship between Mr. Farmer's
proposed Calgary station and the service that you provide.

3575 Because I had the impression from what I have heard and read that your
service that exists outside of Calgary. You spent
some time at the beginning of your presentation talking about competition,
so I guess the essence of my question is: If we did
license Mr. Farmer's service here in Calgary would it be competitive at all
with the service that you provide?

3576 MR. CROWFOOT: I can't answer that because I haven't heard his
programming. I don't know what it contains. I mean,
people always up-sell "This is what I'm going to do", but when it actually
comes out you have to judge it at that time.

3577 As I mentioned in my presentation, people are going to vote with the
tuners on their radio, if they don't like the programming
they are going to go somewhere else.

3578 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Again I guess this follows on something you
have told Commissioner Williams: Can they
vote with their tuners if aboriginal people here in Calgary can't receive
your signals and if the people in the areas that you do
serve can't receive the Calgary signal? How can they vote with their tuners?

3579 MR. CROWFOOT: Well, I mean, there are other signals in Calgary that
are not aboriginal that people listen to already, and
what happens is, if they don't like -- we went through this when we first
set up our radio station. When we went out people were
excited, we said "This is what we are going to do." We went into all these
northern communities and people turned us on.

3580 For the most part I am happy to say that they stayed with us, but
there are some people who didn't like the programming.

3581 I mean, what are you playing? If you are playing South American music
and I happen to like country, I am not going to
listen to it. If you are playing rock and I want to listen to pow-wow, I'm
not going to listen to it. I mean, that is the right of any
citizen or listener in this country, if they don't like what you are giving
they have the option to turn in any other radio station on the
dial.

3582 Now, as I mentioned, I'm not -- you know, I would welcome if we did
set up competing radio signals in the City of Calgary.
I would welcome it because what happens is, I am going to have to produce a
program that people are going to want to listen to.

3583 Aboriginal Voices Radio also has to produce a signal that people want
to listen to, because that is who is going to decide. It
is not me or what I say or what I do, it is going to be the programming
that I provide to the listeners of this city.

3584 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: But you have no immediate plans to set up
transmitters in Calgary, if I understand what
you have told us.

3585 MR. CROWFOOT: Yes. The reason I said that was because I don't want you
to have the impression that I am saying
"Don't give Aboriginal Voices a licence in Calgary because I want one three
years down the road." No, I am not saying that.

3586 As I had mentioned, what I am saying is that when you listen -- my
concern is on the business side. My concern is that he is
not going to be here in two years because of not meeting enough -- not
generating enough revenue to pay the bills. That is my
concern. It has really nothing to do with programming or any of that side
of the operation.

3587 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Help me understand, then, the risk to the
broadcasting system or the risk to any other
aspects of the broadcasting system -- or any specific aspects of the
broadcasting system that you are particularly interested in,
such as native broadcasting, on the assumption that we did license Mr.
Farmer and the unfortunate circumstance occurred where
his station did fail, what the downside, apart from the people directly
involved with Mr. Farmer in that particular station and the
people who have put their money into it, and so on. What is the risk? What
is the downside that we, as a Commission, should be
concerned about?

3588 MR. CROWFOOT: My concern is not really with the Aboriginal Voices
Radio executive, management, production staff,
board, or any of that side, my concern is the aboriginal people in Calgary,
my concern is the non-aboriginal people in Calgary who
don't always have a positive image in native people.

3589 When we ran the newspapers and another native newspaper came out, it
was out three months and then it shut its doors
and it took advantage of a lot of advertisers that didn't get what they
were promised. The conception out there is: Well, what do
you expect? Native people screw it up again. That is what I have to live
with.

3590 I have been in communications for 25 years. I am not using it as a
stepping stone to go on to something else. It has been my
life up until now and, hopefully, if I live another 20 years I will still
be in the business 20 years from now.

3591 I have to live with the consequences of that stigma that is attached
to aboriginal people. We have managed to build our
enterprise to the point where if funding was pulled we would still manage
to survive and people look at it as a successful
operation.

3592 As a result of that all of our newspapers are self-sufficient and my
concern is the stigma that is left after if they do shut
down.

3593 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Thank's very much.

3594 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Crowfoot. That concludes our
questioning of your intervention.

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