Special Announcement for those who have interest in Vipassana
-------------------------------------------------------------

'Sayagyi' Mr SN Goenka (78), Internationally Renowned Teacher of
Vipassana Meditation is visiting UK, the US and the Europe from April
2002. This five-month tour is organised by old and current students
of SN Goenka.

'Sayagyi'  will visit the UK between 10 and 18 April 2002 to speak
about the ancient practice of Vipassana meditation. He guides 80
international meditation centres, including seven in Europe, and
meditation courses using his approach have been held in 90 countries.
All retreats are funded solely on a donation basis.

This is a unique opportunity for anyone interested in meditation in
its purest and simplest form.

During the first part of the tour, he will speak in London,
Birmingham and Hereford - the home of the UK's Vipassana meditation
centre since 1991. All are welcome to the talks, admission is free.
----------------------------------
Schedule of public talks in the UK
----------------------------------
All talks start at 7pm

12 April:    Hereford - Shire Hall, St Peters Square, City Centre,
(Street parking and pay & display car parks nearby)

15 April:    Birmingham - The Avon Room, Birmingham University,
Edgbaston;
(Above Waterstones and Lloyds Bank, nr University Square. Frequent
trains: city centre to University Station. Ample parking and buses)

16 April:    London - Kadwa Patidar Centre, Kenmore Avenue, Harrow;
(Car parking facilities at/near the Centre. Nearest Underground
stations are Harrow & Wealdstone and Kenton on the Bakerloo Line -
allow at least 10 minutes walking time to the Centre. Harrow-on-the-
Hill and Northwick Park stations on the Metropolitan Line are a few
minutes further away)
------------------------------------------------------------------

He will continue from the UK to tour North America and other European
countries.

For Official Info:

http://www.tour.dhamma.org/

UK Tour (12th to 18th April, 2002)
http://www.dipa.dhamma.org/index_html/visit2002

US Tour Itinerary (20th April to 6th August, 2002)
http://www.tour.dhamma.org/multi_city.htm (Areas)
http://www.tour.dhamma.org/details.htm (Chronological)

Europe Tour (8th to 11th August, 2002)
Brussels and Germany

PRESS ROOM
http://www.tour.dhamma.org/presskit/index.html
European Press Release March 2002
http://www.tour.dhamma.org/presskit/eu-release.htm

Vipassana Meditation Website (International)
http://www.dhamma.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------

Dear All,

I was recently involved in  a discussion on Transfer of Merit with
some Mahayana friends, and was unable to clearly state  what the
Theravadin view of this matter is, or to give other than a dictionary
meaning for the term 'patti-dána'.
Has this activity grown to have such popularity because of cultural
factors in different countries? It seems to have very little mention
in the scriptures......

metta,
Christine

Dear Christine,

There are ten kinds of Dhamma which we need to follow and practise:

Generosity (Dana)
Morality (Sila)
Meditation (Bhavana)
Reverence to the worthy persons (Apacyana)
Service (Veyyavacca)
Share or transfer our good merit with others (Pattidana) ***
Rejoicing in others merit (Pattanumodana)
Hearing the Dhamma (Dhammassavana)
Teaching the Dhamma (Dhammadesana)
Straightening the view (Ditthijukamma)

Pattidana, the sixth Dhamma, means that we should share our good
merit, including our good actions, donations, etc. with others.

When you hear about your friend's generosity, sila and Bhavana, you
may feel joyous in your heart and you receive merit as well as your
friend does, because you rejoice in his merit.

In the same way, we need to transfer our merit to others so that they
can rejoice by stating verbally and also letting them know about your
good deeds. This is the Buddhist spirit.

We say 'Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu' whenever we have performed meritorious
deeds. This traditional act of Sharing one's merit with others is
called "Pattidana kusala" and "Rejoicing in others' merits" is known
as "Pattanumodana kusala".

In Tirokutta Sutta, it is stated by the Buddha that: "if the deceased
relatives are reborn as petas who can rejoice in others' merit, one
can perform meritorious deeds for the sake of them, and share merit
with them. If the petas can say "Sadhu", they will be free from the
miserable existences and they can receive celestial clothings,
celestial mansions, celestial gardens and celestial utensils."
Obviously that will depend on their previous kamma. In the Peta
Vatthu also, it is mentioned that if a peta can rejoice in others'
merits by saying "Sadhu", he will be immediately transformed into a
deva.

Best wishes,

Melvin


--- In Triplegem@y..., "christine_forsyth" <cforsyth@v...> wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> I was recently involved in  a discussion on Transfer of Merit with
> some Mahayana friends, and was unable to clearly state  what the
> Theravadin view of this matter is, or to give other than a
dictionary
> meaning for the term 'patti-dána'.
> Has this activity grown to have such popularity because of cultural
> factors in different countries? It seems to have very little
mention
> in the scriptures......
>
> metta,
> Christine

Dear Dhamma Friends

The following is a slightly edited version of the post I recently
wrote to Joyce Short.

Hope it stimulates your intellect and facilitates some brain-storming.

With best wishes,

Suan Lu Zaw

---------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------

Dear Joyce

How are you?

You wrote:

"I turn up my nose at Abhidhamma, but when I read the clarity of
Suan's posts, her (sic) calm, logical, non critical, even handed
methods and ways of going about problem solving, this quite takes my
breath away in delight and I could easily be seduced in to Abhidhamma
study out of admiration for somene who walks the talk-that perhaps I
then could be like her (sic). I might even be willing to be taught, a
rare thing for me."

(her (sic) = his, him. (Joyce thought Suan was a woman.))

Suan replied as follows.

Thank you for your kind compliments on my posts.

The following is my personal insights into the differentiation
between Suttas and Abhidhamma.

Believe it or not, the Buddha taught only abhidhamma. In plain
English, abhidhamma is the subject of what we can observe,
experience, remove, eradicate, cultivate, develop and achieve - in
short, the subject of what we can do with our minds or our lives.

And as every discourse in the Sutta Pitaka also deals with what we
can do with our minds or our lives, every discourse teaches segments
of abhidhamma.

Now, why then is there the differentiation between Sutta Pitaka and
Abhidhamma Pitaka?

The differentiation is not what they teach, but how they teach.

When abhidhamma is spoon-fed to a particular listener, it is called a
Sutta. In fact, that particular sutta can even be named after that
listener. For example, Joyce Short Suttam. The Joyce Short Suttam
would be a segment of abhidhamma tailored to Joyce Short.

When a Sutta is explained by drawing out all the possible
implications with or without their systemisation and reconstruction,
it becomes Abhidhamma.

There you have it.

Every time you read a Suttam, you are reading a segment or segments
of Abhidhamma.

And when you come to the stage of feeling the need to know further
implications and their links related to the partial teachings in that
Suttam, then you are ready for listening to Abhidhamma Pitaka.

You also wrote:

"Unfortunately, this is not likely as I haven't the capacity"

Well, I doubt that you did not have the capacity to learn things
important to you, their implications and links fully and
systematically.

You also wrote:

"Its not what we study or practice but how what we do transforms us.
To me anyway."

It is good to know that transformation is important to you.

Transformation of the mind for the highest possible way is all that
the Buddha taught, and that is why his teachings are called
Abhidhamma.

Abhi = extraordinary, extreme, done at the highest level, done in the
highest way.
Dhamma = teachings.

With kind regards,

Suan The bearded Aussie Man

http://www.bodhiology.org

Hi

I am very curious about the existence of Aranhanta in Myanmar.
Can anybody tell me more about it?


What's relics of Aranhants like? What does it look like?
How can someone tell if it is the relics of aranhants?

Will appreicate it.

Metta,

Dear Dharma Friend:

Meeting Ariya Mettiya(The coming Buddha) and listening to his
discourse is great ambition for most pious & true Buddhist, I
think.

Those days it is not very good to be born in this world of human
being. Life is short, dreadful diseases like AIDS are plentiful,
ideologies and false views are confusing, and dangers abound.

Disgust with this world, someone passé away now and reborn in one of
the Deva-lokas like Tavatimsa heaven, can he or she live long enough
to meet Ariya Mettiya?

Apart from this, how can we take a chance to meet him and realize
the Nibbana?

With Metta

Kim han sang
(From Korea)

Mabel

All,
Feel free for all brothers and sisters in the Dharma staying in Singapore to
take part the below activities during the Visa period and let's us to celebrate
this glad events together.

With Maha Metta,
Johnny Ng




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello,

A few months ago, I saw this enquiry on the list about online
biographies of Ven. Ajahn Mun and Sunlun Sayadaw.  I hope members
don't mind this rather belated reply.

I'm pleased to say that a biography for Ven Ajahn Mun has recently
been completed and is available for download from:

http://www.chezpaul.org.uk/buddhism/books/index.htm

At present there is just the PDF version online, but an HTML version
should follow.

- Paul

--- In Triplegem@y..., ras@p... wrote:
> I'm looking for the biographies of Ajaan Mun and Sunlun Sayadaw,
two
> monks that I find particularily interesting.  Does anyone have a
link
> to where I can read them online, and if not, an address to where I
> can write to request it...?
>
> Thanks.

--- In Triplegem@y..., "metta_foryou" <metta_foryou@y...> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I am very curious about the existence of Aranhanta in Myanmar.
> Can anybody tell me more about it?
>
>
> What's relics of Aranhants like? What does it look like?
> How can someone tell if it is the relics of aranhants?
>
> Will appreicate it.
>
> Metta,
----------------------------------------------------------------

There is a 'Search' facility for records in the Archives.
Searching for 'Relics' will list previous messages on this topic at
the follwing address.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Triplegem/messagesearch?query=relics

Maung Lwin,
Organiser

Dear Dhamma Friends

The following is a sequel to All That the Buddha taught was
Abhidhamma.

Hope it stimulates your intellect and brain-storming as the first one.


With regards,

Suan

---------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------


Dear Joyce

How are you?

You wrote:

"....she really writes so clearly (for a woman)...how do you know she
is a "she"....shoot...just because there is a "Su" ....blah blah.
Laugh."

When I read the above line (SMILE), I recalled Cuulavedalla Suttam
from Muulapannaasa, in Majjimanikaaya.

Do you know why?

Cuulavedalla Suttam is the work of Dhammadinnaa, a bhikkhunii (a
female monk disciple of the Buddha).

And, surprise! surprise! Cuulavedalla SUTTAM is an extremely profound
and important example of Abhidhamma. There are important insights in
this Suttam for a student of Abhidhamma.

Dhammadinnaa taught this Suttam to a lay man called Visaakho. Later,
Visaakho met and told the Buddha that Dhammadinnaa had answered his
questions through this Suttam. Guess what? The Buddha replied to
Visaakho that, if he had asked him those same questions, he, the
Buddha, would have given the same answers. In other words, the Buddha
regarded Cuulavedalla Suttam as his own teaching. The Buddha approved
what has been taught by Dhammadinnaa, which is Abhidhamma, which is
Suttam.

What I am getting at is that the Buddha taught Abhidhamma in the
Suttams. There is no difference between Suttam Pitaka and Abhidhamma
Pitaka in the way of subject matter - the same dhammas for achieving
the highest transformation, namely, awakening.


With kind regards,

Suan

http://www.bodhiology.org

Hi

There is one way I know of, and that is to practice pure moral discipline
and at your time of death do a strong Powa (transfer of concieousness)
practice requesting re-birth in Tushita Pure land. However it is not as
simple as it might seem, and only by practicing Dharma now, and becomming
acquainted with the practice over a lifetime can we hope to develop the
mindefulness and concentration needed to complete Powa practice at the
time of death.
In the scriptures there have been examples of strong practitioners who have
achieved this in their lifetime, but I fear times are too degenerate for
us to practice in the same way.
There are several Powa practices that can achive this, but Guru Yoga is
proberbly strongest in these times.

Hope this might help

Jeremy

>From: "tezinda" <tezinda@...>
>Reply-To: Triplegem@yahoogroups.com
>To: Triplegem@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Triplegem] How can I meet Ariya Mettiya, The coming Buddha?
>Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:02:23 -0000
>
>Dear Dharma Friend:
>
>Meeting Ariya Mettiya(The coming Buddha) and listening to his
>discourse is great ambition for most pious & true Buddhist, I
>think.
>
>Those days it is not very good to be born in this world of human
>being. Life is short, dreadful diseases like AIDS are plentiful,
>ideologies and false views are confusing, and dangers abound.
>
>Disgust with this world, someone passé away now and reborn in one of
>the Deva-lokas like Tavatimsa heaven, can he or she live long enough
>to meet Ariya Mettiya?
>
>Apart from this, how can we take a chance to meet him and realize
>the Nibbana?
>
>With Metta
>
>Kim han sang
>(From Korea)
>
>
>


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Thank you so much for giving me the link to the biography.  I've
found it very interesting indeed.

Dear Friends,

Is the wish to meet the next Buddha likely to be fulfilled?
Let us look at the following aspects.

1. When will Buddha Metteyya appear?

No definite number of years is given in the Texts.
The Anagatavamsa (verse 5) says Buddha Metteyya will arise
ten million years later (vassa-kotiye), but the commentary says this
means after many hundreds of thousands times ten million years. The
future Buddha is now believed to be living in  a deva realm
and  according to the 'Culavamsa', would have other human rebirths before
settling in Tusita deva realm. The Life-span there is 576 million years.

It is a very very long long time from now. Many things can happen to
any one in that time. I don't think the devas can determine the next existence
and the exact time of their death to coincide with that of the Bodhisatta. So we
are taliking about a lot of 'IFs.'

2. Can you meet the Future Buddha just by expressing your wish?

Extremely unlikely. Your future existence depends on the cumulated
function of your previous kamma. Exact timing is impossible unless
you are one of those described in the texts where those people with great parami
and outstanding Kammic records attracted the attention of the previous
Buddhas who then predicted their future destination.

3. What if born at the same time?

One may be reborn at the same time as the Future Buddha for his last
existence in Jambudipa (India). But one may be reborn as an animal,
or as a human in a non-buddhist family in a remote place, etc.

4. If born at the same place and able to meet the Buddha in person?

There were many people in Buddha Gotama's time in India, who were
unable to attain any degree of enlightenment even though they met the Buddha.
Some People did end up in hell.

So we should forget about wishful thinking. Hoping to be reborn as a
deva to meet the future Buddha is not going to work. We have to do our best in
this life to enjoy the benefits of our good efforts in future existences.

Best wishes,

Maung Lwin
------------------------------------------------------
--- In Triplegem@y..., "tezinda" <tezinda@y...> wrote:
> Dear Dharma Friend:
>
> Meeting Ariya Mettiya(The coming Buddha) and listening to his
> discourse is great ambition for most pious & true Buddhist, I
> think.
>
> Those days it is not very good to be born in this world of human
> being. Life is short, dreadful diseases like AIDS are plentiful,
> ideologies and false views are confusing, and dangers abound.
>
> Disgust with this world, someone passé away now and reborn in one
of
> the Deva-lokas like Tavatimsa heaven, can he or she live long
enough
> to meet Ariya Mettiya?
>
> Apart from this, how can we take a chance to meet him and realize
> the Nibbana?
>
> With Metta
>
> Kim han sang
> (From Korea)

Suan Lu Zaw wrote:> Believe it or not, the Buddha taught only> abhidhamma.

I don't believe it.If I'm going to have to study the 52 levels of consciousness,
how many thought-moments occur during the flash of lightening, etc., I may as
well return to medieval Roman Catholicism and learn how many angels dance on the
head of a pin.

With Metta,

Upatissa


---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Upatissa Bhante,

Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!

Metta cittena,

Dhammapiyo Bhante



----- Original Message -----
From: "Bhante Upatissa" <sadhu44@...>
To: <Triplegem@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 12:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Triplegem] All That The Buddha Taught Was Abhidhamma


> Suan Lu Zaw wrote:> Believe it or not, the Buddha taught only> abhidhamma.
>
> I don't believe it.If I'm going to have to study the 52 levels of
consciousness, how many thought-moments occur during the flash of
lightening, etc., I may as well return to medieval Roman Catholicism and
learn how many angels dance on the head of a pin.
>
> With Metta,
>
> Upatissa
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Dear Bhante Upatissa,

I agree with you that Buddha didn't teach only Abhidhamma. He also taught how
we can live happily in the mundane life. But when you consider Buddha's
teaching for attaining Nibbana, you only find Abhidhamma everywhere. If one
can not see Abhidhamma in Buddha's teaching towards attaining Nibbana, that
is indicative of the distance of the person from Nibbana.

Regards


Ranjith Pushpakumara.  Project Services, ITS-AS,  Coles Myer Ltd.
E-mail mailto:ranjith.pushpakumara@...,  Phone +61 3 9483
7577,  Mobile 0417 162 830,  FAX +61 3 9483 7381


-----Original Message-----
From: Bhante Upatissa [mailto:sadhu44@...]
Sent: Wednesday, 17 April 2002 14:39
To: Triplegem@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Triplegem] All That The Buddha Taught Was Abhidhamma


Suan Lu Zaw wrote:> Believe it or not, the Buddha taught only> abhidhamma.

I don't believe it.If I'm going to have to study the 52 levels of
consciousness, how many thought-moments occur during the flash of
lightening, etc., I may as well return to medieval Roman Catholicism and
learn how many angels dance on the head of a pin.

With Metta,

Upatissa


---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


   ----------

This email and any attachments may contain privileged and
confidential information and are intended for the named
addressee only.  If you have received this e-mail in error,
please notify the sender and delete this e-mail immediately.
Any confidentiality, privilege or copyright is not waived or
lost because this e-mail has been sent to you in error.  It
is your responsibility to check this e-mail and any
attachments for viruses.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 19 Apr 2002 Triplegem@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> Message: 1
>    Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 21:39:06 -0700 (PDT)
>    From: Bhante Upatissa <sadhu44@...>
> Subject: Re: All That The Buddha Taught Was Abhidhamma
>
> Suan Lu Zaw wrote:> Believe it or not, the Buddha taught only> abhidhamma.
>
> I don't believe it.If I'm going to have to study the 52 levels of
> consciousness, how many thought-moments occur during the flash of
> lightening, etc., I may as well return to medieval Roman Catholicism and
> learn how many angels dance on the head of a pin.
>
> With Metta,
>
> Upatissa

I have to agree somewhat with Upatissa.

I've studied the suttas a lot, but I have only recently started studying
formal guides/studies of abhidhamma.

While I can see that Abhidhamma is a collection and organization of what
is taught in the suttas - even a super-summary of all important
information and massive correlation between them - I don't see that
it would be possible to understand abhidhamma without first getting the
initial context from the suttas. For someone who's extremely familiar with
the suttas, and has been practicing for a long time, I can understand that
abhidhamma would provide additional insights.

Maybe I'm missing something.

with metta,

john

--- In Triplegem@y..., Bhante Upatissa <sadhu44@y...> wrote:
> Suan Lu Zaw wrote:> Believe it or not, the Buddha taught only>
abhidhamma.
>
> I don't believe it.If I'm going to have to study the 52 levels of
consciousness, how many thought-moments occur during the flash of
lightening, etc., I may as well return to medieval Roman Catholicism
and learn how many angels dance on the head of a pin.
>
> With Metta,
>
> Upatissa
>
Dear Venerable Upatissa,
I think Ranjith has given a succint reply and no doubt Suan will have
something to say; I can add a little:

You mention 52 levels of consciousness. This is not in the
Abhidhamma. They group mental factors(cetasikas) into 52 types (not
levels of consciousness) which include vedana, phassa, lobha...and
most of these terms are used often in the suttas as well.
The commentaries to the Abhidhamma do talk about the extreme rapidity
of mind moments, as you note, but surely this is simply an
elucidation of the Buddha's words  as in the suttas:
""Bhikkhus, I see no other single thing more susceptible to rapid
change as the
Mind(citta). It is no easy thing, Bhikkhu's to describe how quickly
the Mind
changes." Anguttara Nikaya 1's,48

John mentioned that he thought one should know Sutta prior to
Abhidhamma. I am not sure about that. One can read the suttas with
wrong view, with an idea of control and self.
  The Atthasalini refers to (translated as the Expositor
p31)those monks who know sutta but don't know Abhidhamma "the bhikkhu
who is ill-trained in the Suttas gets
a wrong idea, ..consequently he arrives at wrong view"
It notes that this is because the suttas use conventional language,
such as beings and people.
If one doesn't have clear understanding of the difference between
conventional truth and paramattha dhammas this is likely to happen. I
believe the monks of old in Sri Lanka used to begin their studies
with the Abhidhammathasangaha.
best wishes
robert

Dear All,

All three parts of the Tipitaka (Vinaya, Suttanta and Abhidhamma) can
be a valuable source of knowledge, inspiration and encouragement to
the practice. As one learns deeper, he or she will  become clearer on
the Teachings of the Buddha presented in these 3 different parts.

Let us go back to the period around the Enlightenment of the Buddha
who preached the first two Sermons to his former 5 Companions. In the
First Discourse called DHAMMACAKKAPPAVATTANA SUTTA, the Buddha
explained that the 5 constituent groups of existence, which are the
objects of clinging, are Suffering: this is clearly Abhidhamma.

The Second Sermon, ANATTA LAKKHANA SUTTA is also Abhidhamma, dealing
with corporeality, sensation, perception, kamma activities and
consciousness, and the 11 different distinctions of each Aggregate.

The Buddha then continued delivering discorses after discourses.

It was recorded that in his 7th year of ministry, the Buddha went up
to the world of the Devas to teach them the entire Abhidhamma. He
also taught his Chief Disciple Venerable Sariputta who passed on to
five hundred newly ordained monks. They became masters of the seven
books of the Abhidhamma; i.e., Dhammasangani (the entire Dhamma is
assembled and taught all together), Vibhanga (analysis into separate
parts), Dhatukatha ( further analysis into detail according to
elements), Puggalapannati ( Analysis into minute parts in relation to
individuals), Kathavatthu (about the different doctrines existing in
the world), Yamaka (Analysis of the Dhamma in pairs) and finally,
Pathana (the doctrine of causal relations). All became arahants
during the rains-retreat of that year.

So it is very likely that Abhidhamma may cover all discourses in Suttanta
Pitaka. In the latter, Dhamma is explained to different people at
different places. As regards the Abhidhamma, it is the exposition of
everything which is real without reference to individuals. The
understanding of ultimate reality form the back ground of Insight
Meditation, Vipassana.

It was often said (as Robert has mentioned) that a Bhikkhu who knew
Abhidhamma was a true preacher of the Dhamma as he could understand
correctly and avoid confusion for himself and his devotees.

As lay followers, we still need to supplement our knowledge of
Buddhism by reading the discourses written in conventional terms in
Suttanta Pitaka. It is much more enjoyable to read the suttas. But
with a knowledge of the Abhidhamma,  the sutta discourses of the
Buddha  can be understood in their full and proper meaning. So it is
the 'recommended' route. This better understanding of  theory
(pariyatti) will encourage us to practice (patipatti) towards the
realization of the truth (pativedha).

So to go back to the original question and conclude, I think, "Abhidhamma is the
Buddha's Basic Teaching which is given in the form of various discourses to
different people at different time and  locations (Suttas), often
repeatedly on the same dhamma issue on different occasions."

Best wishes,

Maung Lwin
----------

In Triplegem@y..., "robertkirkpatrick.rm" <robertkirkpatrick@r...>
wrote:
> --- In Triplegem@y..., Bhante Upatissa <sadhu44@y...> wrote:
> > Suan Lu Zaw wrote:> Believe it or not, the Buddha taught only>
> abhidhamma.
> >
> > I don't believe it.If I'm going to have to study the 52 levels of
> consciousness, how many thought-moments occur during the flash of
> lightening, etc., I may as well return to medieval Roman
Catholicism
> and learn how many angels dance on the head of a pin.
> >
> > With Metta,
> >
> > Upatissa
> >
> Dear Venerable Upatissa,
> I think Ranjith has given a succint reply and no doubt Suan will
have
> something to say; I can add a little:
>
> You mention 52 levels of consciousness. This is not in the
> Abhidhamma. They group mental factors(cetasikas) into 52 types (not
> levels of consciousness) which include vedana, phassa, lobha...and
> most of these terms are used often in the suttas as well.
> The commentaries to the Abhidhamma do talk about the extreme
rapidity
> of mind moments, as you note, but surely this is simply an
> elucidation of the Buddha's words  as in the suttas:
> ""Bhikkhus, I see no other single thing more susceptible to rapid
> change as the
> Mind(citta). It is no easy thing, Bhikkhu's to describe how quickly
> the Mind
> changes." Anguttara Nikaya 1's,48
>
> John mentioned that he thought one should know Sutta prior to
> Abhidhamma. I am not sure about that. One can read the suttas with
> wrong view, with an idea of control and self.
>  The Atthasalini refers to (translated as the Expositor
> p31)those monks who know sutta but don't know Abhidhamma "the
bhikkhu
> who is ill-trained in the Suttas gets
> a wrong idea, ..consequently he arrives at wrong view"
> It notes that this is because the suttas use conventional language,
> such as beings and people.
> If one doesn't have clear understanding of the difference between
> conventional truth and paramattha dhammas this is likely to happen.
I
> believe the monks of old in Sri Lanka used to begin their studies
> with the Abhidhammathasangaha.
> best wishes
> robert

Dear Bhante Upatissa, And Venerable Dr Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo,

How are you?

Thank you for responding to my post
  "All that the Buddha taught was Abhidhamma"
despite some disagreements.


Dear Ranjith Pushpakumara, Robert Kirkpatrick, And Dr Maung Maung
Lwin

And I also thank Ranjith Pushpakumara, Robert Kirkpatrick, and Dr
Maung Maung Lwin for their solid critical posts that argued for my
views on Abhidhamma in Suttams. I regarded their arguments as my own
because I would have argued in the same way as they did.

Now, as they had argued on my behalf, I have been spared the burden
of mounting arguments, thereby allowing me to use the saved time and
energy for other purposes such as offering further personal insights
into the issue that is Abhidhamma in Suttams

First, I would like to quote the following statements made by
Buddhaghosa in Section 57, Anangana Suttavannanaa, Mulapannaasa,
Majjimanikaaya Atthakathaa.

"Buddhassa  bhagavato  duvidhaa  desanaa  sammutidesanaa,
paramatthadesanaa   caati.   Tattha   puggalo  satto  itthii  puriso
khattiyo   braahmaşo   devo  maaroti  evaruupaa  sammutidesanaa.
Aniccam  dukkham  anattaa,  khandhaa dhaatuu aayatanaani satipa
tthaanaati evaruupaa paramatthadesanaa.

   Tattha    bhagavaa    ye    sammutivasena    desanam   sutvaa
attham   pativijjhitvaa   moham   pahaaya  visesam  adhigantum
samatthaa  tesam sammutidesanam  deseti.  Ye  pana  para
matthavasena   desanam  sutvaa  attham  pativijjhitvaa  moham
pahaaya  visesamadhigantum  samatthaa,  tesam  paramattha-
desanam  deseti."

"The Buddha Bhagavaa's way of teaching is twofold in terms of the
conventional way of teaching (sammutidesanaa) and the ultimate way of
teaching (paramatthadesanaa). There, such way of teaching as person,
sentient being, woman, man, Royals, Brahmin, gods, and maaro is the
conventional way of teaching. Such way of teaching as impermanence,
misery, selflessness, aggregates, elements, venues, and Establishment
of Recollection (Satipatthaana) is the ultimate way of teaching.

There, the Buddha Bhagavaa delivers the conventional way of teaching
to those who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the
teaching in conventional terms, penetrating the meaning, and removing
ignorance. On the other hand, the Buddha delivers the ultimate way of
teaching to those who are capable of gaining unique insight by
hearing the teachings in ultimate terms, penetating the meaning, and
removing ignorance."

Buddhaghosa also made the following statement in Atthasaalinii, page
223, in Roman edition.

"Abhidhammo naama paramatthadesanaa"

"Abhidhamma is the ultimate way of teaching."

Thus, whenever we find in a Suttam the teachings of impermanence,
misery, selflessness, aggregates, elements, venues, and Establishment
of Recollection (Satipatthaana), we can know for sure that this
Suttam is engaging in the ultimate way of teaching. And, as the
ultimate way of teaching is indicative of Abhidhamma, we can
establish the fact that this Suttam contains a segment or segments of
Abhidhamma. For example, Mahaa Satipatthaana Suttam would easily
qualify as Abhidhamma because this Suttam dedicates itself to
teaching the establishment of recollection exclusively.

We can also find in the Suttams the teachings of persons and sentient
beings so that they can also qualify as the conventional way of
teaching. For example, Metta Suttam uses sentient beings as its
objects while containing items of Abhidhamma such as gentleness
(mettaa or adosa in Abhidhamma parlance).

Therefore, we now know that Suttanta Pitaka contains both the
conventional way of teaching and the ultimate way of teaching. That
is another way of saying that Suttams contains segments of
Abhidhamma.

Now, let's take a closer look at the second paragraph we quoted
earlier from Anangana Suttavannanaa.

"There, the Buddha delivers the conventional way of teaching to those
who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the teaching in
conventional terms, penetrating the meaning, and removing ignorance.
On the other hand, the Buddha delivers the ultimate way of teaching
to those who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the
teachings in ultimate terms, penetating the meaning, and removing
ignorance."

The above paragraph is extremely significant in determining the goal
of Suttanta Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka.

The first sentence shows the conventional way of teaching and its
purpose. And the purpose is the gain of unique insight. Unique
insight is the right view that is sammaaditthi, which is an ultimate
reality, or an item of Abhidhamma.

In short, Suttams not only contain segments of Abhidhamma, but also
have the right view that is an item of Abhidhamma as their goal.

The second sentence solves the issue of whether Abhidhamma can
deliver awakening at all. Yes, Abhidhamma can deliver the goods
because "the Buddha delivers the ultimate way of teaching to those
who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the teachings in
ultimate terms, penetating the meaning, and removing ignorance."


With kind regards,

Suan Lu Zaw

http://www.bodhiology.org




--- In Triplegem@y..., Bhante Upatissa <sadhu44@y...> wrote:
> Suan Lu Zaw wrote:> Believe it or not, the Buddha taught only>
abhidhamma.
>
> I don't believe it.If I'm going to have to study the 52 levels of
consciousness, how many thought-moments occur during the flash of
lightening, etc., I may as well return to medieval Roman Catholicism
and learn how many angels dance on the head of a pin.
>
> With Metta,
>
> Upatissa
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nomoshkaar,

Please find the appaling news from Chittagong, Bangladesh.
After carnage against Hindus, Christians it is now the turn of
Buddhists to face it from Islamic fundamentalists- does the world
ever listen?
please alert all the concerned-


http://hrcbm.org/news/budha_april2302_janakantha.html
Prominent Buddhist Monk hack to death, throat slashed

Translated from Janakantha dated 23rd April, 2002

Staff Reporter, Chittagong Office: A prominent and internationally
known Buddhist monk was heck to death at Raujan, the well-known
terror stricken parish. The Monk namely Gyan Jyoti Barua (530) was
heck to death by SAKA gang (a well known notorious gang associated
with ruling party), local Buddhist community claim. The famous
Buddhist monk Mr. Barua was heck to death at night by the
aforementioned miscreants in his own "Anath Ashram" (Orphanage) of
Hingala hill tract. According to report, ruling party supported SAKA
gang wanted to evict Mr. Barua and grabbed the land of the orphanage.
The miscreants have demanded ransom to Mr. Barua numerous times.
Local Buddhist community claims that failing to collect the ransom
and unable to grab the land, SAKA gang has slaughtered Mr. Barua.
The Buddhist community got extremely outraged on the news of Mr.
Barua's death. Various Buddhist associations took out processions and
arranged meeting at the "Buddhabihar" on Monday evening. The
gathering has demanded immediate arrest of the miscreants.
According to local community, the slaughtering was leaded by two
cadres of the SAKA gang namely Ajijul Haque and Taslime Uddin.
Buddhist community told this reporter that slain monk Mr. Barua has
established this orphanage at Hingala, which accommodate 96 children,
and provides food, shelter and education for the orphans.
Mr. Gyan Jyoti Barua finished his education in Thiland and later
devoted himself at the service of mankind and became a monk. His Guru
was Owara Puncha. By the direction of his Guru "Owara Puncha", Mr.
Barua establishes this "Anath Ashram" in the name of his Guru
as "Owara Puncha Anathalaya". He is the eldest son (among five
siblings) of Mr. Pulin Bihari Barua. Gyan Joyti also has very good
relation with various International donor organizations around the
world. Mr. Barua was running this orphanage with the help of a donor
organization from Netherlands. A number of citizens from Japan and
Thailand have also visited this orphanage and witnessed Mr. Barua's
service to the mankind.
A devote at the Ashram, Mr. Mahanam Shram stated that Mr. Barua
entered to his room after the daily prayer services at the night of
his murder. It was around 12:30 at night. Suddenly a group of 7 to 8
terrorists burst into the Ashram with Chinese knife and Swords. The
miscreants then tie up "Mahanam Shram" and murdered Mr. Barua at his
second floor room by slashing his throat. According to the community,
SAKA gang wanted this orphanage to expand their terrorist operation
at Hingala. The miscreants have threatened to kill Mr. Barua numerous
times and wanted control of the Ashram so that they can operate from
there and intake the funds from Netherlands that valued at 25 lakhs
Taka ($12,000.00)/3 year.
A case has been filed at Raujan Police station but no person has been
arrested in this regards.

Does Theravada Buddhism treat Both Man and Woman Equally as Said in
Buddha Teaching?

As Buddhist we follow the examples set by our Bhikkhu 'Sayadaws' (Abbots). Here
is what I found: " Bhikkhu Sayadaws are against Silashins (Myanmar 'nuns') who
sought to become a fully ordained Bhikkhunis. "

This attitude towards Myanmar woman by the most compassionate
Sayadaws, could be somewhat out of pace with the modern world where
people embraced the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In the
eyes of Gotama Buddha both man and woman could attain Arahantship by
following the path laid down by him. There were Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis
in his lifetime and the big question is why not now?

We have heard beautiful words uttered by Venerable Sayadaws in their
recitation of Buddha teaching, like – Metta, Loving kindness and
compassion, equal right afforded by Buddha teaching that both Man and
Woman could attain arahantship and we have yet to see our Sayadaws
sharing equal rights to Silashins to be fully ordained as Bhikkhuni
Samgha in Myanmar.  Is there a place for woman in the Theravada
Buddha Sasana?

a. Would Silashins be afforded the choice to be fully ordained
as Samaneri, Bhikkhuni Samgha by Sayadaw in Myanmar?
b. Why did Sayadaws laid this glass ceiling on woman Silashins
to deprive the woman of their rights to be fully ordained as
Bhikkhuni?
c. Time has changed, it is no longer valid for Sayadaws to
continue the practice of depriving the woman's rights to choose,
especially Silashins.
d. Does this mean that the concept of rights is alien to
Buddhist thought in Myanmar?
e. Are the attitudes of Sayadaws towards Silashins against the
Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

As an example of a modern charter of human rights we may take The
Universal Declaration of Human Rights proclaimed by the General
Assembly of the United Nations in December 1948. Since its
promulgation this thirty- article code has been used as a model for
many subsequent human rights charters.

Each one of us has a role to play in sustaining and promoting social
justice and orderliness. The Buddha explained very clearly these
roles as reciprocal duties existing between parents and children;
teachers and pupils; husband and wife; friends, relatives and
neighbors; employer and employee; clergy and laity ... No one has
been left out. The duties explained here are reciprocal and are
considered as sacred duties, for - if observed - they can create a
just, peaceful and harmonious society.

	 This means that every human being without distinction of age,
sex, race, skin, color, physical or mental ability, language,
religion, political view, or national or social origin possesses an
inalienable and untouchable dignity. And everyone, the individual as
well as the state, is therefore obliged to honor this dignity and
protect it. In the 31 planes of existence we have human realm not man
human realm and woman human realm. It is high time to practice Buddha
teaching in the true form as recorded in Pali Canon.

	 My question is are we Myanmar as a member of the UN obligated
to observe the human ethics of sharing equal rights towards woman at
home, and those in Monasteries throughout Myanmar the equal rights,
the freedom of choice to Silashins to be fully ordained Bhikkhuni?

        I, in my humble self, like to invite all Myanmar women (and Men) to
express their view on their rights lost in their daily practice of
religion in Myanmar.

Dear Friends,

In Myanmar (Burma), the Buddhist nuns are called 'Thila-shins'
or 'Sila-shins' or 'precept-women' in simple meaning. They shave
their heads and  wear pink coloured robes with a sash over their left
shoulder. They go for a kind of alms-round, collecting food, uncooked
rice and money but not with monk's alms-bowls. They keep eight or ten
precepts daily, i.e they practise noble celibacy just like the
Bhikkhus. These Thilashins  learn the scriptures and practise
Meditation and lead a purified life. Myanmars are well-known for
being content with what they have, and the majority of Myanmar
Thilashins are quite happy with the status quo. So the question of
Bhikkhuni Revival has never been   an issue in Myanmar.

The author of the posting on Bhikkhuni in Myanmar mentioned the Human
Rights. The Article 18 of the Unighted Nations Universal Human Rights
Declaration reads:

"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and
religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or
belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in
public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching,
practice, worship and observance."

It does not advocate change of the actual religious texts. Look at
the world around us today. There are three major religions;
Christianity, Islam and Hinduism, representing 3 billion people in
total. Are  women treated equally in all spects of their religious
life in these religions? The answer is a clear 'No.' Buddhism is
followed by 400 millions and is believed to be the best as far as
women are concerned. A woman can become an Arahant in this life and
also can become a Buddha in the last existence as a man.

The Universal Human Rights Declaration does not interfere with the
actual Teachings and Rules of any specific spiritual beliefs. The
Teachings should not be altered by followers to suit the
circumstances. If we do, we destroy that religion. If we change the
Buddha's Teachings, the 'new' concepts are ours, not the Buddha's,
and a new religion is created and we have to give it a new name. To
continue to call it Buddhism will be an irresponsible act and is
misrepresentation or cheating. The Kammic consequences are serious.

We have to study the Vinaya rules regarding the ordination of women.
Nowadays people around the world have taken a very strong interest in
Buddhism and the majority of these people are believed to be women.
So this issue may be very important to the members of this list as
well.

Many Buddhists agree or disagree whether there can be  an Bhikkhuni
Order today. The Buddhist rules indicate that the ordination of men
and  women requires the presence of both ordained monks (Bhikkhu) and
female monks (Bhikkhuni), respectively; the latter needs Bhikkhus in
addition. The Bhikkhuni order died out in India and Sri Lanka in the
11th century. Thailand and Tibet did not have an order of Bhikkhunis.
But in some East Asian countries especially  Korea, the Bhikkhuni
Order seems to have survived. For Myanmar, the historical records are
not clear. No Bhikkhuni names are in Myanmar Buddhist Archives.
Emperor Asoka sent the monks Sona and Uttara to Suvannabhumi,
believed to be 'Thaton' in Lower Myanmar by Myanmar Historians
(around 250 BC). It was recorded somewhere that 3500 noble men and
1500 women entered the Buddhist order. The opponents of this theory
pointed out that there was no evidence of Bhikkhunis among the
members of the Samgha brought to 'Pagan' from Thaton in 11th century
AD by King Anawratha. Perhaps the Bhikkhuni Order had died out
already. So we agreed that there were no Bhikkhunis in Myanmar for
many centuries.

It is true that the Buddha had approved the Order of Bhikkhunis. But
he didn't want to make a Bhikkhuni Sangha because he knew that it
wouldn't last, and he was right. He had no absolute power to prevent
women becoming Bhikkhunis. That is down to the Kamma of individuals.
He made it clear of his reservations. He even cautioned that the
length of Sasana would shorten due to emergence of Bhikkhunis.

The Vinaya rules indicate that the Bhikkhuni Order can't be revived
nowadays. (True Theravadadins are not interested in other Buddhist
Traditions) The Buddha must have foreseen this. If we try revive it,
we may be unintentionally ignoring his prophecy. If the Vinaya rules
regarding Bhikkhunis were made by the Buddha, we as Buddhists have to
follow the Rules.

And there are special precepts for the Bhikkhunis to keep.

First, special rules, garu-dhamma, specified by the Buddha:

(i) A bhikkhuni, even if she enjoys a seniority of a hundred years in
the Order, must pay respect to a bhikkhu though he may have been a
bhikkhu only for a day.

(ii) A bhikkhuni must not keep her rains-residence in a place where
there are no bhikkhus.

(iii) Every fortnight a bhikkhuni must do two things: To ask the
bhikkhu Samgha the day of uposatha, and to approach the bhikkhu
Samgha for instruction and admonition.

(iv) When the rains-residence period is over, a bhikkhuni must attend
the pavarana ceremony conducted at both the assemblies of bhikkhus
and bhikkhunis, in each of which she must invite criticism on what
has been seen, what has been heard or what has been suspected of her.

(v) A bhikkhuni who has committed a Samghadisesa offence must undergo
penance for a half-month, pakkha manatta, in each assembly of
bhikkhus and bhikkhunis.

(vi) Admission to the Order must be sought, from both assemblies, by
a woman novice only after two year's probationary training as a
candidate.

(vii) A bhikkhuni should not revile a bhikkhu in any way, not even
obliquely.

(viii) A bhikkhuni must abide by instructions given her by bhikkhus,
but must not give instructions or advice to bhikkhus.

For the 311 rules for Bhikkhunis, please refer to Vinaya Texts.

Women can still get fully enlightened or become ariyas as  lay
Buddhist Practitioners. Those who are contemplating Ordination should
study the following issues from the point of view  of pure
Theravadain Tradition.

1. The main objects of becoming an ordained Bhikkhuni?

    (a) For personal progress: Do you need to be a Bhikkhuni to
progress or get enlightened?

    (b) For Dhammaduta work: Do you need to be a Bhikkhuni to
propagate the Teachings? I knew of Myanmar Thilashins on Dhammaduta
missions.

2. Belief in the current Vinaya Rules(re: Bhikkhuni Ordination)
Those who do not believe in such rules must be able to identify the
alternative rules in the Pali Canon?

3. Special Garu-Dhamma and more Precepts to follow than the monks. A
Bhikkhuni observes 311 Rules of discipline. Are would-be Bhikkhunis
prepared for the consequences of not being able to keep the precepts? There was
a saying that more monks go to hell than the laity.
    We read stories of some Bhikkhus committing crimes. What about the
new Bhikkhunis? Will they be in the headlines and cause more damage to Buddha
Sasana?

In conclusion,

(1) Human Rights Declaration has nothing to do with Doctrinal Issues.

(2) Bhikkhuni Samgha can't be revived and sustained nowadays  from
Theravadin point of view.

(3) Myanmar Sayadaws and Myanmar Laity seem to be in complete
agreement regarding Bhikkhuni Revival. Myanmar Lay persons are very
well educated in Buddhist Teachings and play an important role in the
continued prosperity of the Buddha Sasana. It is not just the
Sayadaws who stand firm against the new proposals. Myanmar Bhikkhus
as well as the majority of laity whether male or female, may not
recognize the authenticity of ordination ceremonies for Bhikkhunis in
Myanmar or elsewhere.

(4) The Ruling Sangha Bodies in Sri Lanka and Thailand do not endorse
the Bhikkhuni Ordination ceremonies taking place in their countries.

Best wishes,

Melvin



--- In Triplegem@y..., "mpaw1234" <mpaw1234@y...> wrote:
> Does Theravada Buddhism treat Both Man and Woman Equally as Said in
> Buddha Teaching?
>
> As Buddhist we follow the examples set by our Bhikkhu 'Sayadaws'
(Abbots). Here ...............

---

Dear Melvin.
Thank you for your well-informed letter; it is worthy of publication.
best wishes
robert
In Triplegem@y..., "melvintaik" <melvintaik@y...> wrote:
> Dear Friends,
>
> In Myanmar (Burma), the Buddhist nuns are called 'Thila-shins'
> or 'Sila-shins' or 'precept-women' in simple meaning. They shave
> their heads and  wear pink coloured robes with a sash over their
left
> shoulder. They go for a kind of alms-round, collecting food,
uncooked
> rice and money but not with monk's alms-bowls. They keep eight or
ten
> precepts daily, i.e they practise noble celibacy just like the
> Bhikkhus. These Thilashins  learn the scriptures and practise
> Meditation and lead a purified life. Myanmars are well-known for
> being content with what they have, and the majority of Myanmar
> Thilashins are quite happy with the status quo. So the question of
> Bhikkhuni Revival has never been   an issue in Myanmar.
>
> The author of the posting on Bhikkhuni in Myanmar mentioned the
Human
> Rights. The Article 18 of the Unighted Nations Universal Human
Rights
> Declaration reads:
>
> "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and
> religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or
> belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and
in
> public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching,
> practice, worship and observance."
>
> It does not advocate change of the actual religious texts. Look at
> the world around us today. There are three major religions;
> Christianity, Islam and Hinduism, representing 3 billion people in
> total. Are  women treated equally in all spects of their religious
> life in these religions? The answer is a clear 'No.' Buddhism is
> followed by 400 millions and is believed to be the best as far as
> women are concerned. A woman can become an Arahant in this life and
> also can become a Buddha in the last existence as a man.
>
> The Universal Human Rights Declaration does not interfere with the
> actual Teachings and Rules of any specific spiritual beliefs. The
> Teachings should not be altered by followers to suit the
> circumstances. If we do, we destroy that religion. If we change the
> Buddha's Teachings, the 'new' concepts are ours, not the Buddha's,
> and a new religion is created and we have to give it a new name. To
> continue to call it Buddhism will be an irresponsible act and is
> misrepresentation or cheating. The Kammic consequences are serious.
>
> We have to study the Vinaya rules regarding the ordination of
women.
> Nowadays people around the world have taken a very strong interest
in
> Buddhism and the majority of these people are believed to be women.
> So this issue may be very important to the members of this list as
> well.
>
> Many Buddhists agree or disagree whether there can be  an Bhikkhuni
> Order today. The Buddhist rules indicate that the ordination of men
> and  women requires the presence of both ordained monks (Bhikkhu)
and
> female monks (Bhikkhuni), respectively; the latter needs Bhikkhus
in
> addition. The Bhikkhuni order died out in India and Sri Lanka in
the
> 11th century. Thailand and Tibet did not have an order of
Bhikkhunis.
> But in some East Asian countries especially  Korea, the Bhikkhuni
> Order seems to have survived. For Myanmar, the historical records
are
> not clear. No Bhikkhuni names are in Myanmar Buddhist Archives.
> Emperor Asoka sent the monks Sona and Uttara to Suvannabhumi,
> believed to be 'Thaton' in Lower Myanmar by Myanmar Historians
> (around 250 BC). It was recorded somewhere that 3500 noble men and
> 1500 women entered the Buddhist order. The opponents of this theory
> pointed out that there was no evidence of Bhikkhunis among the
> members of the Samgha brought to 'Pagan' from Thaton in 11th
century
> AD by King Anawratha. Perhaps the Bhikkhuni Order had died out
> already. So we agreed that there were no Bhikkhunis in Myanmar for
> many centuries.
>
> It is true that the Buddha had approved the Order of Bhikkhunis.
But
> he didn't want to make a Bhikkhuni Sangha because he knew that it
> wouldn't last, and he was right. He had no absolute power to
prevent
> women becoming Bhikkhunis. That is down to the Kamma of individuals.
> He made it clear of his reservations. He even cautioned that the
> length of Sasana would shorten due to emergence of Bhikkhunis.
>
> The Vinaya rules indicate that the Bhikkhuni Order can't be revived
> nowadays. (True Theravadadins are not interested in other Buddhist
> Traditions) The Buddha must have foreseen this. If we try revive
it,
> we may be unintentionally ignoring his prophecy. If the Vinaya
rules
> regarding Bhikkhunis were made by the Buddha, we as Buddhists have
to
> follow the Rules.
>
> And there are special precepts for the Bhikkhunis to keep.
>
> First, special rules, garu-dhamma, specified by the Buddha:
>
> (i) A bhikkhuni, even if she enjoys a seniority of a hundred years
in
> the Order, must pay respect to a bhikkhu though he may have been a
> bhikkhu only for a day.
>
> (ii) A bhikkhuni must not keep her rains-residence in a place where
> there are no bhikkhus.
>
> (iii) Every fortnight a bhikkhuni must do two things: To ask the
> bhikkhu Samgha the day of uposatha, and to approach the bhikkhu
> Samgha for instruction and admonition.
>
> (iv) When the rains-residence period is over, a bhikkhuni must
attend
> the pavarana ceremony conducted at both the assemblies of bhikkhus
> and bhikkhunis, in each of which she must invite criticism on what
> has been seen, what has been heard or what has been suspected of
her.
>
> (v) A bhikkhuni who has committed a Samghadisesa offence must
undergo
> penance for a half-month, pakkha manatta, in each assembly of
> bhikkhus and bhikkhunis.
>
> (vi) Admission to the Order must be sought, from both assemblies,
by
> a woman novice only after two year's probationary training as a
> candidate.
>
> (vii) A bhikkhuni should not revile a bhikkhu in any way, not even
> obliquely.
>
> (viii) A bhikkhuni must abide by instructions given her by
bhikkhus,
> but must not give instructions or advice to bhikkhus.
>
> For the 311 rules for Bhikkhunis, please refer to Vinaya Texts.
>
> Women can still get fully enlightened or become ariyas as  lay
> Buddhist Practitioners. Those who are contemplating Ordination
should
> study the following issues from the point of view  of pure
> Theravadain Tradition.
>
> 1. The main objects of becoming an ordained Bhikkhuni?
>
>    (a) For personal progress: Do you need to be a Bhikkhuni to
> progress or get enlightened?
>
>    (b) For Dhammaduta work: Do you need to be a Bhikkhuni to
> propagate the Teachings? I knew of Myanmar Thilashins on Dhammaduta
> missions.
>
> 2. Belief in the current Vinaya Rules(re: Bhikkhuni Ordination)
> Those who do not believe in such rules must be able to identify the
> alternative rules in the Pali Canon?
>
> 3. Special Garu-Dhamma and more Precepts to follow than the monks.
A
> Bhikkhuni observes 311 Rules of discipline. Are would-be Bhikkhunis
> prepared for the consequences of not being able to keep the
precepts? There was a saying that more monks go to hell than the
laity.
>    We read stories of some Bhikkhus committing crimes. What about
the
> new Bhikkhunis? Will they be in the headlines and cause more damage
to Buddha Sasana?
>
> In conclusion,
>
> (1) Human Rights Declaration has nothing to do with Doctrinal
Issues.
>
> (2) Bhikkhuni Samgha can't be revived and sustained nowadays  from
> Theravadin point of view.
>
> (3) Myanmar Sayadaws and Myanmar Laity seem to be in complete
> agreement regarding Bhikkhuni Revival. Myanmar Lay persons are very
> well educated in Buddhist Teachings and play an important role in
the
> continued prosperity of the Buddha Sasana. It is not just the
> Sayadaws who stand firm against the new proposals. Myanmar Bhikkhus
> as well as the majority of laity whether male or female, may not
> recognize the authenticity of ordination ceremonies for Bhikkhunis
in
> Myanmar or elsewhere.
>
> (4) The Ruling Sangha Bodies in Sri Lanka and Thailand do not
endorse
> the Bhikkhuni Ordination ceremonies taking place in their countries.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Melvin
>
>
>
> --- In Triplegem@y..., "mpaw1234" <mpaw1234@y...> wrote:
> > Does Theravada Buddhism treat Both Man and Woman Equally as Said
in
> > Buddha Teaching?
> >
> > As Buddhist we follow the examples set by our Bhikkhu 'Sayadaws'
> (Abbots). Here ...............

I'm interested to know how Buddhism explains the Non Self Theory
(Anatta).  If there is non self, then who attains Nibbana?  If there
is non self, then who is the giver, who is the receiver of all the
deeds done.  Who is the doer and receiver of kamma?
    The Buddha spoke about non self in the khandhas / aggregates.  Of
course we cannot see a Self (Atta)  in those aggregates but.......He
spoke of the True Self in Digha Nikaya Mahaparinibbana Sutta Verse
100 (DN 2.100) Atta saranam anannasaranam = True Self as a refuge
with none other as a refuge.
    The Buddha in KN Jatakapali 1441 Akkhakandam said, "Atta ca me so
saranam gati ca" = The True Self is the refuge that I have gone unto.
    In AN4.128 the Buddha said, "Some have gone about saying that I
preach there is no eternal (amattam) Attan (true self): "O monks,
they do not speak the truth about me saying such things that I do not
say"
    With all those quotations from the Nikayas, could somebody please
explain to me why the Theravadin tradition rejected the True Self and
advocated Non Self (Anatta)?
    Thank you very much and saddhu to those who could "enlighten" me
on this issue of Non Self.  Saddhu

Dear Melvin,

Thank you for a very interesting letter detailing the current
Theravadan position in Myanmar on the Ordination of Women.
The following articles may give a different viewpoint and  show that
there are men and women, ordained and laity, all over the world who
have an interest in  pursuing this matter.

metta,
Christine

Vinaya - Ordination of Women by Ajahn Brahmavamso
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebsut036.htm

On the Restoration of the Bhikkhuni Order - Selected Articles:
"The Revival and survival of Buddhist Nuns"
"A Path less travelled"
"Her Holiness"
"A nun's life has limited appeal"
"The Dhammananda Controversy"
"Women in Buddhism: Planting the seeds of Peace"
"A new Dawn for Women's Rights"
"The Revival of the Bhikkuni Order in Sri Lanka"
"Womens Ordination"
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha220.htm

"Where women stand'' by Phra Dhammapitaka (Bhikkhu Payutto)
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha203.htm

"On growing a Theravadan Nun's Sangha in Britain" (Sakyadhita
Newsletter, Spring 1997, Vol.8, no.1)
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha059.htm

"Restoring the Order of Nuns to the Theravaadin Tradition" Senarat
Wijayasundara
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha184.htm

"Interview with Venerable Bhikkhuni Kusuma"
  on The Buddhist Hour Radio Broadcast, Hillside Radio, Victoria,
Australia
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha221.htm

"Buddhist Nuns in Burma" by Dr. Friedgard Lottermoser
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha060.htm

--- In Triplegem@y..., "melvintaik" <melvintaik@y...> wrote:
> Dear Friends,
>
> In Myanmar (Burma), the Buddhist nuns are called 'Thila-shins'
> or 'Sila-shins' or 'precept-women' in simple meaning. They shave
> their heads and  wear pink coloured robes with a sash over their
left
> shoulder. They go for a kind of alms-round, collecting food,
uncooked
> rice and money but not with monk's alms-bowls. They keep eight or
ten
> precepts daily, i.e they practise noble celibacy just like the
> Bhikkhus. These Thilashins  learn the scriptures and practise
> Meditation and lead a purified life. Myanmars are well-known for
> being content with what they have, and the majority of Myanmar
> Thilashins are quite happy with the status quo. So the question of
> Bhikkhuni Revival has never been   an issue in Myanmar.
>
> The author of the posting on Bhikkhuni in Myanmar mentioned the
Human
> Rights. The Article 18 of the Unighted Nations Universal Human
Rights
> Declaration reads:
>
> "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and
> religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or
> belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and
in
> public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching,
> practice, worship and observance."
>
> It does not advocate change of the actual religious texts. Look at
> the world around us today. There are three major religions;
> Christianity, Islam and Hinduism, representing 3 billion people in
> total. Are  women treated equally in all spects of their religious
> life in these religions? The answer is a clear 'No.' Buddhism is
> followed by 400 millions and is believed to be the best as far as
> women are concerned. A woman can become an Arahant in this life and
> also can become a Buddha in the last existence as a man.
>
> The Universal Human Rights Declaration does not interfere with the
> actual Teachings and Rules of any specific spiritual beliefs. The
> Teachings should not be altered by followers to suit the
> circumstances. If we do, we destroy that religion. If we change the
> Buddha's Teachings, the 'new' concepts are ours, not the Buddha's,
> and a new religion is created and we have to give it a new name. To
> continue to call it Buddhism will be an irresponsible act and is
> misrepresentation or cheating. The Kammic consequences are serious.
>
> We have to study the Vinaya rules regarding the ordination of
women.
> Nowadays people around the world have taken a very strong interest
in
> Buddhism and the majority of these people are believed to be women.
> So this issue may be very important to the members of this list as
> well.
>
> Many Buddhists agree or disagree whether there can be  an Bhikkhuni
> Order today. The Buddhist rules indicate that the ordination of men
> and  women requires the presence of both ordained monks (Bhikkhu)
and
> female monks (Bhikkhuni), respectively; the latter needs Bhikkhus
in
> addition. The Bhikkhuni order died out in India and Sri Lanka in
the
> 11th century. Thailand and Tibet did not have an order of
Bhikkhunis.
> But in some East Asian countries especially  Korea, the Bhikkhuni
> Order seems to have survived. For Myanmar, the historical records
are
> not clear. No Bhikkhuni names are in Myanmar Buddhist Archives.
> Emperor Asoka sent the monks Sona and Uttara to Suvannabhumi,
> believed to be 'Thaton' in Lower Myanmar by Myanmar Historians
> (around 250 BC). It was recorded somewhere that 3500 noble men and
> 1500 women entered the Buddhist order. The opponents of this theory
> pointed out that there was no evidence of Bhikkhunis among the
> members of the Samgha brought to 'Pagan' from Thaton in 11th
century
> AD by King Anawratha. Perhaps the Bhikkhuni Order had died out
> already. So we agreed that there were no Bhikkhunis in Myanmar for
> many centuries.
>
> It is true that the Buddha had approved the Order of Bhikkhunis.
But
> he didn't want to make a Bhikkhuni Sangha because he knew that it
> wouldn't last, and he was right. He had no absolute power to
prevent
> women becoming Bhikkhunis. That is down to the Kamma of individuals.
> He made it clear of his reservations. He even cautioned that the
> length of Sasana would shorten due to emergence of Bhikkhunis.
>
> The Vinaya rules indicate that the Bhikkhuni Order can't be revived
> nowadays. (True Theravadadins are not interested in other Buddhist
> Traditions) The Buddha must have foreseen this. If we try revive
it,
> we may be unintentionally ignoring his prophecy. If the Vinaya
rules
> regarding Bhikkhunis were made by the Buddha, we as Buddhists have
to
> follow the Rules.
>
> And there are special precepts for the Bhikkhunis to keep.
>
> First, special rules, garu-dhamma, specified by the Buddha:
>
> (i) A bhikkhuni, even if she enjoys a seniority of a hundred years
in
> the Order, must pay respect to a bhikkhu though he may have been a
> bhikkhu only for a day.
>
> (ii) A bhikkhuni must not keep her rains-residence in a place where
> there are no bhikkhus.
>
> (iii) Every fortnight a bhikkhuni must do two things: To ask the
> bhikkhu Samgha the day of uposatha, and to approach the bhikkhu
> Samgha for instruction and admonition.
>
> (iv) When the rains-residence period is over, a bhikkhuni must
attend
> the pavarana ceremony conducted at both the assemblies of bhikkhus
> and bhikkhunis, in each of which she must invite criticism on what
> has been seen, what has been heard or what has been suspected of
her.
>
> (v) A bhikkhuni who has committed a Samghadisesa offence must
undergo
> penance for a half-month, pakkha manatta, in each assembly of
> bhikkhus and bhikkhunis.
>
> (vi) Admission to the Order must be sought, from both assemblies,
by
> a woman novice only after two year's probationary training as a
> candidate.
>
> (vii) A bhikkhuni should not revile a bhikkhu in any way, not even
> obliquely.
>
> (viii) A bhikkhuni must abide by instructions given her by
bhikkhus,
> but must not give instructions or advice to bhikkhus.
>
> For the 311 rules for Bhikkhunis, please refer to Vinaya Texts.
>
> Women can still get fully enlightened or become ariyas as  lay
> Buddhist Practitioners. Those who are contemplating Ordination
should
> study the following issues from the point of view  of pure
> Theravadain Tradition.
>
> 1. The main objects of becoming an ordained Bhikkhuni?
>
>    (a) For personal progress: Do you need to be a Bhikkhuni to
> progress or get enlightened?
>
>    (b) For Dhammaduta work: Do you need to be a Bhikkhuni to
> propagate the Teachings? I knew of Myanmar Thilashins on Dhammaduta
> missions.
>
> 2. Belief in the current Vinaya Rules(re: Bhikkhuni Ordination)
> Those who do not believe in such rules must be able to identify the
> alternative rules in the Pali Canon?
>
> 3. Special Garu-Dhamma and more Precepts to follow than the monks.
A
> Bhikkhuni observes 311 Rules of discipline. Are would-be Bhikkhunis
> prepared for the consequences of not being able to keep the
precepts? There was a saying that more monks go to hell than the
laity.
>    We read stories of some Bhikkhus committing crimes. What about
the
> new Bhikkhunis? Will they be in the headlines and cause more damage
to Buddha Sasana?
>
> In conclusion,
>
> (1) Human Rights Declaration has nothing to do with Doctrinal
Issues.
>
> (2) Bhikkhuni Samgha can't be revived and sustained nowadays  from
> Theravadin point of view.
>
> (3) Myanmar Sayadaws and Myanmar Laity seem to be in complete
> agreement regarding Bhikkhuni Revival. Myanmar Lay persons are very
> well educated in Buddhist Teachings and play an important role in
the
> continued prosperity of the Buddha Sasana. It is not just the
> Sayadaws who stand firm against the new proposals. Myanmar Bhikkhus
> as well as the majority of laity whether male or female, may not
> recognize the authenticity of ordination ceremonies for Bhikkhunis
in
> Myanmar or elsewhere.
>
> (4) The Ruling Sangha Bodies in Sri Lanka and Thailand do not
endorse
> the Bhikkhuni Ordination ceremonies taking place in their countries.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Melvin
>
>
>
> --- In Triplegem@y..., "mpaw1234" <mpaw1234@y...> wrote:
> > Does Theravada Buddhism treat Both Man and Woman Equally as Said
in
> > Buddha Teaching?
> >
> > As Buddhist we follow the examples set by our Bhikkhu 'Sayadaws'
> (Abbots). Here ...............

Dear Friends:

Some over 2500 years ago Buddha has prophesied that his Dispensation
would last 5,000 years. Once is spoken by Buddha no human could
change the fate of his dispensation. The real Buddha prophesy as many
of us understood it was this, which I will quote from the Buddhist
scholar U Chit Tin from his research paper based on Pali Canon:

" The Duration of the Sasana of Buddha Gotama " by the researcher U
Chit Tin.

Quote - " The commentaries on the Vinaya Pitaka and the Anguttara-
nikaya say that the eight important rules which the Buddha gave to
the Bhikkhuni Sangha will make his Teachings last for five thousand
years rather than five hundred. There will be one thousand years for
Arahats who attain analytical insight, one thousand years for Arahats
without those attainments, one thousand years for Non-returners, one
thousand years for Once-returners, and one thousand years for Stream-
winners. After these five thousand years of penetration of the true
Doctrine (pativedha-sadhamma), the accomplishment in the texts
(pariyatti-dhamma) will remain. After the accomplishment in the texts
disappears, the signs (linga) will continue for a long time." Unquote.

We have already passed through half way point (2,500 years) in Gotama
dispensation and the five thousand years life span of Gotama
dispensation is becoming a fact of life whether we have a revival of
Bhikkhuni or not, at this time. The fact of the matter is to welcome
Bhikkhuni Samgha in the community of Samghas was already established
in Buddha's lifetime. We should not hold the prophesy as an
instrument to lay fears on modern Myanmar woman who are as equally
educated as man. No one should fear of shortening the Gotama Sasana
at this time. The 5000 years Sasana life span will hold.

I don't know about the statement – "Myanmar's are well-known for
being content with what they have, and the majority of Myanmar
Thilashins are quite happy with the status quo." If this statement
comes from a woman writer, I will say it is a typical representation
of most women in Myanmar, which obviously is not.

If only one reads between the lines of the writings in Nibbana.com -
Daw Nyar Na Sar Yi Buddhist Nunnery, Yangon, Myanmar (Burma) which
reads like this:

Quote: -  As you all know during the days of Lord Buddha, there are
women monks (Bhikkhunis) as we have monks (Bhikkhus) at this present
moment. But this line of women monks had disappeared long ago. In our
country we are proud to have women folk, known as Thilashins (Nuns)
who are studying Buddhist Literature and are sitting the same
examinations as the monks. Such women who are devoting on Buddhist
literature may be rare in other countries. In our country there were
three prominent women in this field.
1. The first is Mai Kin - known during the days of Mandalay
Yadanabon Era, 200 years back
2. The second is Daw Mar Lar Yi during the colonial period, 100
years back and
3. The third is Daw Nyar Na Sar Yi, the founder of this present
institute – Unquote

I say this writing is a cry of the depressed Silashins who knew of
their lost empire'- unquote.

Let me present the Buddha's stepmother - Maha Pajapati Gotami, Founder
of the Order of Nuns, and ask all Myanmar woman – Don't you
(Silashins) all like to become a fully ordained Bhikkhuni, if given
the opportunity to make their own choice?

The writer is not proposing a change to the religious text. In my
review of the old religious text that I discovered that there were
Bhikkhunis Samghas after Buddha himself has ordained his stepmother
to the community of Samgha. I am simply presenting the facts that
when some Myanmar Silashins seek to be ordained as Bhikkhuni in
Myanmar they were forbidden to do so. We Myanmar are not willing to
pay respect to woman Samgha because of our lifelong chauvinistic
attitude towards woman.

Many in Myanmar accept the facts what Gotama said – both man and
woman could attain Arahantship, No one dare to cross the line to
state with much Metta Cetana that - but Sila shin could not attain
the Bhikkhuniship in this life time as long as they live and practice
Theravada Buddhism in Myanmar? I myself, once before,was one of them
by telling myself, how could I pay homage to a woman Samgha
(Bhikkhuni)?

When a woman Silashin seeks to become a Bhikkhuni, she is well versed
in her knowledge that she must observe 311 Rules of discipline. If a
woman Silashin elect by her own free will choose to live by the
rules, why are we man objecting to her choice of the ascetic life
style? We knew very well that even at home, we Myanmar man are face
with our wives claiming their rights. Let face it, there are even
some who are living off their wives earnings.

Gotama has shown to his disciples that we all must treat both man and
woman equally, even in the attainment of Arahantship. Let us treat
Myanmar woman equally in the community of Samghas like in the
lifetime of Gotama Buddha. To be a fully ordained Bhikkhuni is your
choice and that Buddha has allowed you to become one. This Gotama
Sasana will surely last for 5,000 years, not 500 years (obviously),
since the ordination of Maha Pajapati Gotami, Gotama stepmother to
Bhikkhuni Samgha. Just by mere presentation of the facts of Maha
Pajapati Gotami is not a proposal for change in the Buddha teaching;
it is in fact in line with the true Buddha teaching. I would love to
read a Myanmar woman write. I hope Myanmar Buddhists are not so
opinionated as to distort the historical facts.  Please keep an open
mind – with Metta Ananta. Metta is lovely but hard to practice, even
to our own sisters.

Best Regards,

M.P

Do you mind posting the relevant suttas in full.
I can't find them on the net.

--- In Triplegem@y..., "steven_19988" <steven_19988@y...> wrote:
> I'm interested to know how Buddhism explains the Non Self Theory
> (Anatta).  If there is non self, then who attains Nibbana?  If
there
> is non self, then who is the giver, who is the receiver of all the
> deeds done.  Who is the doer and receiver of kamma?
>    The Buddha spoke about non self in the khandhas / aggregates.
Of
> course we cannot see a Self (Atta)  in those aggregates
but.......He
> spoke of the True Self in Digha Nikaya Mahaparinibbana Sutta Verse
> 100 (DN 2.100) Atta saranam anannasaranam = True Self as a refuge
> with none other as a refuge.
>    The Buddha in KN Jatakapali 1441 Akkhakandam said, "Atta ca me
so
> saranam gati ca" = The True Self is the refuge that I have gone
unto.
>    In AN4.128 the Buddha said, "Some have gone about saying that I
> preach there is no eternal (amattam) Attan (true self): "O monks,
> they do not speak the truth about me saying such things that I do
not
> say"
>    With all those quotations from the Nikayas, could somebody
please
> explain to me why the Theravadin tradition rejected the True Self
and
> advocated Non Self (Anatta)?
>    Thank you very much and saddhu to those who could "enlighten"
me
> on this issue of Non Self.  Saddhu

You said:
>>> He
>>> spoke of the True Self in Digha Nikaya Mahaparinibbana Sutta
Verse
>>> 100 (DN 2.100) Atta saranam anannasaranam = True Self as a
refuge
>>> with none other as a refuge.

You could have misinterpreted the meaning of "atta".
Everyday conversational use of "atta" is just for
convenient reference. If you compare with the translation of
an extract of the Mahaparinibbana Sutta
given below, the Buddha instructed his disciples to comtemplate
the body in the body etc., the use of "atta" does not mean a SELF.
The Buddha is simply addressing his disciples in everyday language.
So, if you too comtemplate the body in the body etc., you are
a refuge unto "yourself".
How did the Buddha attain enlightenment? By simply making
a refuge of "himself", ie. by comtemplating his body in his body,
his feelings in his feelings, his mind in his mind, his mental
objects in his mental objects.

[Extracted from]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn16.html

33. "Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto
yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your
island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge.

"And how, Ananda, is a bhikkhu an island unto himself, a refuge unto
himself, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as his island,
the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge?

34. "When he dwells contemplating the body in the body, earnestly,
clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire
and sorrow in regard to the world; when he dwells contemplating
feelings in feelings, the mind in the mind, and mental objects in
mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully,
after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world,
then, truly, he is an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself,
seeking no external refuge; having the Dhamma as his island, the
Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge.

35. "Those bhikkhus of mine, Ananda, who now or after I am gone,
abide as an island unto themselves, as a refuge unto themselves,
seeking no other refuge; having the Dhamma as their island and
refuge, seeking no other refuge: it is they who will become the
highest, [20] if they have the desire to learn."

You said:
>>> In AN4.128 the Buddha said, "Some have gone about saying that I
>>> preach there is no eternal (amattam) Attan (true self): "O
monks,
>>> they do not speak the truth about me saying such things that I
do not
>>> say"

It is true that there is no eternal self (or any self).
However, the Buddha did not teach the truth outright by
preaching that there is no eternal self or any self.
He did not DECLARE to the world that THERE IS NO SELF.
In fact, when a layman asked him straight in his face if
there is a self or not, he remained silent.
Whether is there a self or not, it is not up to the Buddha to
tell you. It is for the unenlightened to find out using the
methods taught by the Buddha.
The Buddha MERELY TAUGHT THE METHODS to realize non-selfness
(anatta).
He did not preach/declare that there is no self.
If the Buddha did preach/declare that there is no self, it
will contradict the principles he laid out in the Kalama Sutta.
Nobody can believe that there is a self or no self based
on a declaration by the Buddha, if the Buddha did make such a
declaration. It would be tantamount to making Buddhism a mere
belief system such as Christianity, and the Buddha would be making
a fool of himself.
Only on attaining the first level of enlightenment of sotapanna
will you be able to judge if there is a self or not without
a single trace of doubt.
The crucial task lies in the practice of the methods as taught
by the Buddha.

PS: The Dhamma is not a belief system. There is no enlightenment
by believing that there is no self. Practice leading to insight
is needed.

--- In Triplegem@y..., "steven_19988" <steven_19988@y...> wrote:
> I'm interested to know how Buddhism explains the Non Self Theory
> (Anatta).  If there is non self, then who attains Nibbana?  If
there
> is non self, then who is the giver, who is the receiver of all the
> deeds done.  Who is the doer and receiver of kamma?
>    The Buddha spoke about non self in the khandhas / aggregates.
Of
> course we cannot see a Self (Atta)  in those aggregates
but.......He
> spoke of the True Self in Digha Nikaya Mahaparinibbana Sutta Verse
> 100 (DN 2.100) Atta saranam anannasaranam = True Self as a refuge
> with none other as a refuge.
>    The Buddha in KN Jatakapali 1441 Akkhakandam said, "Atta ca me
so
> saranam gati ca" = The True Self is the refuge that I have gone
unto.
>    In AN4.128 the Buddha said, "Some have gone about saying that I
> preach there is no eternal (amattam) Attan (true self): "O monks,
> they do not speak the truth about me saying such things that I do
not
> say"
>    With all those quotations from the Nikayas, could somebody
please
> explain to me why the Theravadin tradition rejected the True Self
and
> advocated Non Self (Anatta)?
>    Thank you very much and saddhu to those who could "enlighten"
me
> on this issue of Non Self.  Saddhu

>----- Original Message -----
>From: steven_19988 <steven_19988@...>
>To: <Triplegem@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 5:35 PM
>Subject: [Triplegem] Anatta in Theravada Buddhism
>
>
>> I'm interested to know how Buddhism explains the Non Self Theory
>> (Anatta).  If there is non self, then who attains Nibbana?  If there
>> is non self, then who is the giver, who is the receiver of all the
>> deeds done.  Who is the doer and receiver of kamma?
>>    The Buddha spoke about non self in the khandhas / aggregates.  Of
>> course we cannot see a Self (Atta)  in those aggregates but.......He
>> spoke of the True Self in Digha Nikaya Mahaparinibbana Sutta Verse
>> 100 (DN 2.100) Atta saranam anannasaranam = True Self as a refuge
>> with none other as a refuge.
>>    The Buddha in KN Jatakapali 1441 Akkhakandam said, "Atta ca me so
>> saranam gati ca" = The True Self is the refuge that I have gone unto.
>>    In AN4.128 the Buddha said, "Some have gone about saying that I
>> preach there is no eternal (amattam) Attan (true self): "O monks,
>> they do not speak the truth about me saying such things that I do not
>> say"
>>    With all those quotations from the Nikayas, could somebody please
>> explain to me why the Theravadin tradition rejected the True Self and
>> advocated Non Self (Anatta)?
>>    Thank you very much and saddhu to those who could "enlighten" me
>> on this issue of Non Self.  Saddhu
>>

I cannot tell you what the Theravada tradition says about this, nor the
reasons for "rejecting the True Self", but what I have to say, is that this
"no-self" concept is too often misunderstood IMHO.

It is not that there is no self, and therefore no one to attain Nirvana
(although there IS actually no one to attain Nirvana :^) It is that the
pretense that someone may exist OUT of the context of what stannds around
it is simply preposterous. Yet we do it all the time. Pirsig, in "Zen and
the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", wrote (end of Chapter 2) about the
manuals for computers, "Implicit  in every line is the idea that 'Here is
the machine, isolated in time and in space from everything else in the
universe. It has no relationship to you, you have no relationship to it,
other than to turn certain switches, maintain voltage levels, check the
error conditions...' and so on. "

Well I think we tend to consider ourselves in the same way. And that's
what's wrong. Personally, I'd suppose that if one understands anatta, one
understands "True Self". I'd even suspect they're the same.

mxl

Voyez ma page web:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/michel.proulx/Clavecin.html