----- Original Message -----

From: whiteladyofrohan@...

To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:46 AM

Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Tolkien works

Can someone enlighten me?  Where does the Complete History of Middle Earth Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3 fit into the History of Middle Earth Volumes 1 through 12?  Or does it not?  Are these three books outside the HOME series?  Also, is Unfinished Tales the same thing you'd find in The Book of Lost Tales 1 and 2 (aka The History of Middle Earth Volumes 1 and 2)?

 

Final question:  The History of Middle Earth Volume 6 is subtitled, The Return of the Shadow, the histories of the Lord of the Rings, Part 1.  Is there a Part 2 or is The Lord of the Rings considered Part 2?

 

Thank you!

Debbie

 

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." -- Voltaire

I think I can answer the other part as I am just finishing reading the two 'Book
of Lost Tales' and am also in the middle of The Silmarillion for the second
time.

'Unfinished Tales' and 'The Book of Lost Tales 1 & 2' are overlapping earlier
drafts of 'The Silmarillion'. They contain earlier, previously unpublished
drafts of the tales told in 'The Silmarillion'. The drafts are usually longer
and more detailed than the final versions that made it into 'The Silmarillion'.
Tolkien removed a lot of detail and changed many events, names, and characters
in his final drafts of these stories.

Matt West



Quoting Gary Bellinger <yesgaz@...>:

> Don't know about the first question but there are actually 4 parts. Part 2 of
> 'the histories Lord of the Rings' is The Treason of Isengard, which is Volume
> 7 of the History of Middle Earth series. Part 3 is Vol. 8, The War of the
> Ring while Part 4 is Vol. 9, Sauron Defeated: The End of the Third Age.
>
> Volume 1: The Book of Lost Tales, Part 1
> Volume 2: The Book of Lost Tales, Part 2
> Volume 3:The Lays of Beleriand
> Volume 4:The Shaping of Middle Earth
> Volume 5: The Lost Road
> Volume 6: The Return of the Shadow - The History of Middle Earth, Part 1
> Volume 7: The Treason of Isengard - The History of Middle Earth, Part 2
> Volume 8: The War of the Ring -  - The History of Middle Earth, Part 3
> Volume 9: Sauron Defeated: The End of the Third Age - The History of Middle
> Earth, Part 4
> Volume 10: Morgoth's Ring - The Later Silmarillion, Part 1
> Volume 11: The War of the Jewels - The Later Silmarillion, Part 2
> Volume 12: The Peoples of Middle Earth
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: whiteladyofrohan@...
>   To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 10:46 AM
>   Subject: [TolkienDiscussions] Tolkien works
>
>
>   Can someone enlighten me?  Where does the Complete History of Middle Earth
> Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3 fit into the History of Middle Earth Volumes 1
> through 12?  Or does it not?  Are these three books outside the HOME series?
> Also, is Unfinished Tales the same thing you'd find in The Book of Lost Tales
> 1 and 2 (aka The History of Middle Earth Volumes 1 and 2)?
>
>   Final question:  The History of Middle Earth Volume 6 is subtitled, The
> Return of the Shadow, the histories of the Lord of the Rings, Part 1.  Is
> there a Part 2 or is The Lord of the Rings considered Part 2?
>
>   Thank you!
>   Debbie
>
>   "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit
> atrocities." -- Voltaire
>





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--- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, whiteladyofrohan@...
wrote:
>
> Final question:  The History of Middle Earth Volume 6 is
subtitled,  The
> Return of the Shadow, the histories of the Lord of the Rings, Part
1.   Is there a
> Part 2 or is The Lord of the Rings considered Part 2?
>


As master Bellinger said, and his scheme was very clear!, this is
HoME:

Volume 1: The Book of Lost Tales, Part 1
Volume 2: The Book of Lost Tales, Part 2
Volume 3:The Lays of Beleriand
Volume 4:The Shaping of Middle Earth
Volume 5: The Lost Road
Volume 6: The Return of the Shadow - The History of Middle Earth,
Part 1
Volume 7: The Treason of Isengard - The History of Middle Earth,
Part 2
Volume 8: The War of the Ring -  - The History of Middle Earth, Part
3
Volume 9: Sauron Defeated: The End of the Third Age - The History of
Middle Earth, Part 4
Volume 10: Morgoth's Ring - The Later Silmarillion, Part 1
Volume 11: The War of the Jewels - The Later Silmarillion, Part 2
Volume 12: The Peoples of Middle Earth


> Can someone enlighten me?  Where does the Complete History of
Middle  Earth
> Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3 fit into the History of Middle Earth
Volumes 1
> through 12?  Or does it not?  Are these three books outside the
HOME  series?
> Also, is Unfinished Tales the same thing you'd find in The Book
of  Lost Tales 1
> and 2 (aka The History of Middle Earth Volumes 1 and 2)?
>


I've read The Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales. I haven't read all
HoME, but only BoLT2, and set eyes and hands on Lays of Beleriand...

(I can hardly believe that, for... whatever matters, I have burnt it
all!... But it happened. Now I have to buy it all again, and I have
no money... But that's... say... well: I'll survive. Someday,
anyway...)

In what concerns Unfinished Tales and BoLT1, I can't say, for I had
never had chance to put hands or eyes on BoLT1, but, having read
vol. 2, it doesn't make sense to me. If I'm not mistaken -- for I
remember slightly having put hands once on BoLT1, it tells stories
of the Silmarillion... (?)

Unfinished Tales and Book of Lost Tales II are definitely not the
same thing.


SILMARILLION & UNFINISHED TALES

Silmarillion & Unfinished Tales are a series apart from HoME.

One can read only Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The Hobbit and the
Lord of the Rings to have Ages before the Sun, and Ages I, II and
III of the Sun.

Silmarillion tell stories of elven-lore of first age, and a bit of
second age.

Unfinished Tales brings part of first age, plenty of second age, and
a bit of third age.

Silmarillion, however, is more lore-shaped, while Unfinished Tales
is more in the style of the appendices of LotR. It's kind of text is
more like scientific text. Different from Silmarillion.

(And The Hobbit and LotR are modern epic, which they call novel, or
something like.)

By lore I mean mythic. This is why even Gilgamesh came up, in the
last discussions... It also has a bit to do with the Torah of the
Hebrews and the first Books-of-the-Prophets (Neviim)*, and Greek
epics Ilias, Odysseia.

This is, also, -- maybe -- one reason why many people find
Silmarillion, as well as the Patriarchs of the Hebrews ("genesis")
boring books to read, and versions of the Greek epics in verse. (As
well as Gilgamesh.)

Usually, one strong reason for people to find it hard to read these
texts is not to have a reason to do it, other than the will of
knowledge of them. This is, also, the reason why lists like these
exist. (As well as the Britannica! :^)

SOME IDEAS
'Have others, but I'll spare you of them, right now.


Gustavo
a Classicist ... without a pipe. Sorry.

(Modern Classicists use other things, different from smoke-making
wood-tools. I use the mandolin. It doesn't make smoke, but sound.
Like an ainu... :^)


Only one post-scriptum. I almost forgot The Adventures of Tom
Bombadil, which someone in this list likes very much, in the
religious feature of his thesis on the R. Tolkien's demiurge (...).
Together with Unfinished Tales (third part) The Hobbit and LotR, it
makes a good picture of the III Age of the Sun, in its whole.

_

*Joshua, the judges, Samuel, Natan, Eliah, Eliah's disciple (don't
know his name in English...); different from the style of the rest
of the Neviim: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and the 12, except Hagai;
Daniel, for most modern Hebrews, doesn't make part of the Prophets.)

--- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Rob"
<fredwestermeyer@...> wrote:
>
> I've never finished reading this tale. I've started it then
stopped fairly
> early on a few times.
>
> Maybe interested parties on this list could do a "book group" kind
of thing
> on the epic?
>
> Also, though I can't imagine Tolkien not being aware of Gilgamesh
(and
> plenty of other myths), it seems that his interest was m ore with
the
> Scandinavian/Norse/Teutonic myths and sagas than with other
culture myths
> like the Greek, Middle Eastern, etc. Good thing, too, or else
Middle Earth
> would be one heck of a different place. Would have been
interesting to know
> what kind of mythic tales the "men from the South and East" had
amongst
> themselves in ME. Would they have reflected the myths of India,
the Middle
> East, etc?
>
> Rob
>

Try Britannica, too. It helps a lot one to begin with readings...

Gus'
of the Classics

1) I believe the "Complete History of Middle Earth Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3" are merely a three volume collection of the original 12 part History of Middle Earth series. They printed a really nice (collectible) 3 volume collection after all 12 of the series had come out. I think Christopher Tolkien may have done some slight re-editing of earlier volumes based on things he learned after writing the later volumes of the series. These things sell for a pretty penny, though, so if you have one or can get it cheap you're a lucky stiff.

2) Gary lists the original 12 part series and their titles correctly except for he accidentally misnamed the 4 volumes that deal with the History of the Lord of the Rings (the subset Debbie was asking about originally). The correct titles are:

Volume 1: The Book of Lost Tales, Part 1
Volume 2: The Book of Lost Tales, Part 2
Volume 3: The Lays of Beleriand
Volume 4: The Shaping of Middle Earth
Volume 5: The Lost Road
Volume 6: The Return of the Shadow: The History of The Lord of the Rings, Part 1
Volume 7: The Treason of Isengard - The History of The Lord of the Rings, Part 2
Volume 8: The War of the Ring - The History of The Lord of the Rings, Part 3
Volume 9: Sauron Defeated: The End of the Third Age - The History of The Lord of the Rings, Part 4
Volume 10: Morgoth's Ring - The Later Silmarillion, Part 1
Volume 11: The War of the Jewels - The Later Silmarillion, Part 2
Volume 12: The Peoples of Middle Earth

The four-part subset would be the volumes most likely of interest to readers who have only read LotR and not Tolkien's other works.

The 12 part series as a whole, though, to my mind is simply fascinating all the way around and are each very fun reads chock full of interesting detail.

"Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle Earth" is very similar in style to the History of Middle Earth series, so if you have that book you'll know what the HoME series is like. "Unfinished Tales" is sort of the precursor to the HoME series. I assume Christopher, after putting out the UT book, later decided a full-blown series dealing with all the unfinished or differing versions of material JRR left was in order. To my mind, UT ought to go the way of the dodo and all the material be put into its proper place in the HoME books. But that would mean one less book to sell and that would never fly! Never!

Rob

PROMISED FEEDBACK

Family relations among Valar.

(In Ilúvatar's thought, Manwë and Melkor where brothers)

Manwë (Súlimo) & Varda (Sind. Elbereth) were married, and their home
was Taniquetil, high; together, Manwë had the best vision of the
world, and Varda, the best ears;

Ulmo, the lonely; he doesn't like the human shape like the other
Valar;

Aulë & Yavanna (Kementári, Queen of Earth); Aulë was very much like
Morgoth, with the difference of having remained faithful to Eru; he
liked creation exercise, but he did not envy the works of others,
unless, he would help them, with sugestions;

The Fëanturi (lords of souls):

~ Námo, who dwelt at Mandos, and was known by this name; his wife
was Vairë;
~ Irmo, who dwelt at Lórien-of-Valinor, and was known as Lórien; his
wife was Estë;

Vairë would be the tipical weaver (or, Fate);
Estë was a priestess with healing powers;

Námo & Irmo's sister was Nienna, who had greater power than Estë,
for Nienna would be the one to teach the creatures of Arda to turn
grief into hope; she dwelt at a western lair even more west than
Mandos, and the windows of her house faced outside the world (...);

(Mandos would be, literally, in a quite ancient concept, the prison
where the dead awaited for the end; Nienna would visit Mandos,
sometimes)

Tulkas of the beard (Astaldo the Valiant) & Nessa; they were quick
and swift, and Tulkas strong; they needed no horse or blade: they
ran, and Tulkas' weapon was his hands;

Oromë (Aldaron, lord of the trees, Sind. Tauron) & Vána; Oromë's
sister was Nessa; his wife, Vána, who was Yavanna's sister; Vána was
ever-young; Oromë's horse and friend was Nahar.

_

The chapter says also that some among Men did call the Powers by the
word 'gods', and that Varda (Elbereth) was the one more popular
among the Elves, as object of worship and love (...).

_

The Valar were 14 Aratar (lords of Arda) were 8:

Manwë & Varda;
Ulmo;
Yavanna & Aulë;
Námo;
Nienna;
Oromë;

from which the only Sindarin names that are spoken are the ones of
Varda, Elbereth, and of Oromë, Tauron.

And Morgoth wasn't counted among the 14, because of his betrayal.

_

As I didn't read the HoME series, I don't know if Sindarin forms of
the other powers may have been essayed (...).


--- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Gustavo"
<g.olivieri@...> wrote:

Thinking about differences between R. Tolkien's mythic work and
common existing myths (or myths from peoples of ancient days), I
can't recall for sure... The only relation I can recall between
Valar is, if I am not mistaken, Tulkas and Nienna as brothers...
Even this I will have to check up...

It seems that one thing that Tolkien did was to unmake the family
concept between the "powers" (gods*) of Middle-Earth.

(There was also some kinds of marriages, if I'm not mistaken... But
it seems to me that all the Valar and the Maiar as well seemed to
be, at most, like brothers among each other.)

I'll take a look at the first pages of Silmarillion, and give
feedback if I find something out.

_

*Another thing I can't recall from anywhere is Valar being referred
to as gods. At NO PLACE; they're always the Valar: "powers". (From
root 'val-', 'bal-', that made words like (Quenya) vala, pl. valar,
(Sindarin) bala(n), pl. belain, (S.) balrog, (for Q. valaraucar)).

(I didn't read any letters, anyway.)

--- End forwarded message ---

----- Original Message -----

From: whiteladyofrohan@...

To: TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 9:23 AM

Subject: Re: [TolkienDiscussions] Tolkien works

I've always considered the 12 volume set to be a bit daunting and, as I only own volumes 1 thru 5 (in paperback), I might be more likely to tackle the Complete History of Middle Earth if, as you say, they are a compendium of the HoME series.

 

As regarding cost, I recently found the HoME series, all first editions, available on eBay (Buy it Now) for $4500.  And while that would be oh-so-lovely to own, it's a bit out of reach for me.  OTOH, the Complete History of Middle Earth series can be bought for $70 to $100 per volume, which is a tad more doable.

 

Debbie

 

In a message dated 11/1/2006 9:13:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, fredwestermeyer@... writes:

1) I believe the "Complete History of Middle Earth Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3" are merely a three volume collection of the original 12 part History of Middle Earth series. They printed a really nice (collectible) 3 volume collection after all 12 of the series had come out. I think Christopher Tolkien may have done some slight re-editing of earlier volumes based on things he learned after writing the later volumes of the series. These things sell for a pretty penny, though, so if you have one or can get it cheap you're a lucky stiff.

 

 

<<Oh I agree -- but it would just be SO cool to own them :-D>>

I do. :)

Yep, I have all hardcover first editions. American, though, not British. A
few of mine are the British editions, though. As my friend said when I
bought the British volumes (III and XII, btw) "Yeah, but soon you'll be
looking at them on the shelf and then feel obligated to buy all the other
volumes so as to have complete American AND British sets." He's right!
But... not yet.

Regardless, I can't see anyone paying $4500 for the set! You could get them
easily for $200 each, I'd think (and probably a lot less for the later
ones).

Now, what I'd like to have is a first edition LotR!!!

Irrespective of any of that, I really enjoy the HoME series, though I've
only read the first three and the four volumes dealing with the LotR.

Rob

Hello disciples of R. T.,
& LotR's lovers!

People usually call it role-play; I began using a translation in
Portuguese that means a "little play", "teatreto". It's more than a
game, for a Latin speaker... it's a play! Like chidren's play. (In
English, as well as in old Latin, play (lat. "ludus") serves to both
uses undistinguishedly. In Portuguese, there are two
words: "brincadeira", which is children's play, and "jogo", which is
more like sports, either like football or baseball, or like the
olympic games.

(And, as I explain it, I notice that also in English people use role-
playing game ... whereas I always used role-play, for I like mostly
the part concerning the play practice, than the idea of a game
(...). Anyway, no difference.)

My idea is to remember people of the old one, that has been going
on, "Last Battle of the Elves" (at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/last_battle_ofthe_elves/ ), which
takes place in Middle-Earth, during the days of the War of the Ring.
The play's idea is very good: it's the war fought by elves, behind
the development of the story we know of the War of the Ring, and
that is slightly mentioned in LotR chronology, at the end of vol.
III, that King Celeborn and King Thranduil gloriously met each other
at Dol Guldűr, when they defeated the army of orcs that remained
there, and menaced the north. It's a great idea, by Cindy, the
idealizer of the play plot.

&, also, I'd like to invite any interested people to join my own
story, however it doesn't take place in Middle-Earth, but, well,
once it began to ... actually & simply HAPPEN, I invite people to
come in. It's the story of the adventure of Rufo and Guastalvo on
their way to the kingdom of Hollin (no coincidence... I like the
name, however they will not find Celebrimbor there (...)), taking
some scrolls, sent by King Theoleon of Sycia. Only, the play is to
be acted mostly in Portuguese, however, I'm used to invite people of
other languages to join my play-projects in Portuguese, once
adaptations can be imagined; for example, an English speaking
character will fit in the play as a Dane, or a Celt character, and
Portuguese might correspond to XIIIrd century Italic Latin, which is
the days of the stories development. (It's a bit complex to explain
the whole of the story here, but it will be done, briefly at least,,
to anyone who decides to join.) The mailing-list adress is
http://br.groups.yahoo.com/group/the_blue_goblin , and the play is
in motion. Beginning, but happening :^)

That's rather all I had in mind.

Gustavo the Classicist
I sign,

&dot_

By the way,
if anyone doesn't know yet...

http://www.keanemusic.com/

(take a look at /music/, there's intruductions to two songs; I find
them really nice!)

G.C.
Rio

Please pardon the intrusion.

Last week I noticed that I was not receiving some of the daily news
updates I am subscribed to.   Since then, more and more such daily or
near-daily services have stopped arriving.  I have also noticed an
apparent dropoff in the amount of regular e-mail I get every
day.  Today, not only did more (paid) subscription services
disappear, but on at least one discussion list I am a member of I
have not received copies of the messages I have sent to the list
(although they must be getting through as some people have responded
to them), and at least one person has informed me that messages from
my account are being labeled by his gmail account as spam.  It looks
as though the problem started around 3 or 4 Nov.  I haven't changed
any e-mail settings or installed any new filtering or firewall
software, so I'm guessing that BellSouth may have done something with
their server software probably over the first weekend in Nov.  I
filed a problem report with them a little while ago, which according
to their web site was successfully sent, but so far have not received
a response.  (Though I'd be happy with them simply fixing the problem
as I requested.)  Anyway, in case they want any more information, I
thought I'd send a message to all the lists I'm a member of and
individuals with which I regularly correspond to see if it goes
through or runs into problems.  Please, don't _everyone_ on the list
respond :P , but I would like a response or a few to know that my
messages are getting through to the list.  I would especially like to
hear from the list owners if this message triggers spam filters or
other problems, or from others who find this message labeled spam.

Thanks!


-- Ronn!  :)

I had a meeting yesterday with my new CEO – just to welcome me to the company. 

The trouble is, I think he is using an alias

http://www.smartfocus.com/index.aspx?p=233&pp=204

:o)
Jack

--- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Jack " <jack@...> wrote:
>
> I'm FROM the Scottish Borders, but I've lived in Bristol for 25 years
>
>
>
> I live not far from the Greek Orthodox Church in Easton.
>

That was my church. Spooky!

Is it true that they're filming 'The Hobbit'? or ...

I mean, I've been hearing some nonsense about it all, so I am
beginning to doubt it was ever more than a midium's game (...)

I will believe w'n it's on the screen_

Here is what is being said on the Peter Jackson fan club page:

Tuesday, September 12 2006 8:07 AM
News about PJs future projects...
- Submitted by Gab

Here are some updates about PJ future projects.

"The Hobbit" is now officially on MGMs production list. Some days ago they
released a list with films they want to do in the near future and one of those
films is "The Hobbit" planned as a two part movie project. Quint from AICN.com
talked with PJ himself about the "Hobbit" rumours and it seems that he is pretty
surprised about it because noone from New Line Cinema or MGM talked with him
about it. He also said he would like to do it even if his schedule is pretty
crowded in the next years (-> http://www.aintitcool.com/node/24456).

Besides of a possible "Hobbit" film (what COULD finally happen now) he will
direct "The Lovely Bones" and produce the remake of "The Dambusters" and the
"HALO" film and today PJ announced in an interview with AICN.com that he will
also produce the TEMERAIRE book series (->
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/30014). To be honest I have never heard about it
so I can´t comment it but it´s official now and it sounds pretty cool. So, in
the near future PJ will give us a hell of a lot of cool new films...

http://tbhl.theonering.net/





Quoting Gustavo <g.olivieri@...>:

>
>
> Is it true that they're filming 'The Hobbit'? or ...
>
> I mean, I've been hearing some nonsense about it all, so I am
> beginning to doubt it was ever more than a midium's game (...)
>
> I will believe w'n it's on the screen_
>
>
>





-------------------------------------------
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Here's what IMDB has to say:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0903624/



Quoting Gustavo <g.olivieri@...>:

>
>
> Is it true that they're filming 'The Hobbit'? or ...
>
> I mean, I've been hearing some nonsense about it all, so I am
> beginning to doubt it was ever more than a midium's game (...)
>
> I will believe w'n it's on the screen_
>
>
>





-------------------------------------------
Get your free email at ourbrisbane.com now

Unfortunately, all those articles were dated 3/4/04. Oh well...




Quoting whiteladyofrohan@...:

>
>
> The movie is not yet in production, but here is some of the latest buzz
> according to Yahoo Movies:
>
> _http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hp&cf=prev&id=1808551129_
> (http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hp&cf=prev&id=1808551129)
>
> In a message dated 11/20/2006 12:15:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> g.olivieri@... writes:
>
> Is it  true that they're filming 'The Hobbit'? or ...
>
> I mean, I've been  hearing some nonsense about it all, so I am
> beginning to doubt it was ever  more than a midium's game (...)
>
> I will believe w'n it's on the  screen_
>
>
>
>
>





-------------------------------------------
Get your free email at ourbrisbane.com now

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/entertainment/gossip/16066081.htm

Here is the CHARLOTTE OBSERVER's take on it.

While I'm sorry that Jackson won't be directing it, I think it will be
interesting to see another artist's 'take' on JRRT.

Bruce Alan Wilson, M.Ed., M.S.L.S.
Reference Librarian, W.Va. Law Library
304-558-2607 (Direct dial 304-340-3980)
fax 304-558-3673

From what I understand, they're pretty much hand-cuffed until this law
suit gets settled, but they are planning to go ahead with MGM, though
it could take some time.

~George



--- In TolkienDiscussions@yahoogroups.com, "Chad Dollahite"
<ccdollahite@...> wrote:
>
> From the LOTR87 list.
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: lord_of_the_rings_87@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:lord_of_the_rings_87@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frodo Baggins
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 2:28 AM
> To: lord_of_the_rings_87@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [lord_of_the_rings_87] PJ and The Hobbit
>
>
>
> I was on theonering.met and saw this article. I thought you all would
> like to see it.
> here it is
>
>
> 11-19-06 Latest News
>
> Peter Jackson and Fran Walsh Talk THE HOBBIT
> Xoanon @ 10:32 pm EST
>
> Moments ago we received this email from Peter Jackson and his crew
> down in New Zealand, take a look...
>
> Dear One Ringers,
>
> As you know, there's been a lot of speculation about The Hobbit. We
> are often asked about when or if this film will ever be made. We have
> always responded that we would be very interested in making the film -
> if it were offered to us to make.
>
> You may also be aware that Wingnut Films has bought a lawsuit against
> New Line, which resulted from an audit we undertook on part of the
> income of The Fellowship of the Ring. Our attitude with the lawsuit
> has always been that since it's largely based on differences of
> opinion about certain accounting practices, we would like an
> independent body - whether it be a judge, a jury, or a mediator, to
> look at the issues and make an unbiased ruling. We are happy to accept
> whatever that ruling is. In our minds, it's not much more complex than
> that and that's exactly why film contracts include right-to-audit
clauses.
>
> However, we have always said that we do not want to discuss The Hobbit
> with New Line until the lawsuit over New Line's accounting practices
> is resolved. This is simple common sense - you cannot be in a
> relationship with a film studio, making a complex, expensive movie and
> dealing with all the pressures and responsibilities that come with the
> job, while an unresolved lawsuit exists.
>
> We have also said that we do not want to tie settlement of the lawsuit
> to making a film of The Hobbit. In other words, we would have to agree
> to make The Hobbit as a condition of New Line settling our lawsuit. In
> our minds this is not the right reason to make a film and if a film of
> The Hobbit went ahead on this basis, it would be doomed. Deciding to
> make a movie should come from the heart - it's not a matter of
> business convenience. When you agree to make a film, you're taking on
> a massive commitment and you need to be driven by an absolute passion
> to want to get the story on screen. It's that passion, and passion
> alone, that gives the movie its imagination and heart. To us it is not
> a cold-blooded business decision.
>
> A couple of months ago there was a flurry of Hobbit news in the media.
> MGM, who own a portion of the film rights in The Hobbit, publicly
> stated they wanted to make the film with us. It was a little weird at
> the time because nobody from New Line had ever spoken to us about
> making a film of The Hobbit and the media had some fun with that.
> Within a week or two of those stories, our Manager Ken Kamins got a
> call from the co-president of New Line Cinema, Michael Lynne, who in
> essence told Ken that the way to settle the lawsuit was to get a
> commitment from us to make the Hobbit, because "that's how these
> things are done". Michael Lynne said we would stand to make much more
> money if we tied the lawsuit and the movie deal together and this may
> well be true, but it's still the worst reason in the world to agree to
> make a film.
>
> Several years ago, Mark Ordesky told us that New Line have rights to
> make not just The Hobbit but a second "LOTR prequel", covering the
> events leading up to those depicted in LOTR. Since then, we've always
> assumed that we would be asked to make The Hobbit and possibly this
> second film, back to back, as we did the original movies. We assumed
> that our lawsuit with the studio would come to a natural conclusion
> and we would then be free to discuss our ideas with the studio, get
> excited and jump on board. We've assumed that we would possibly get
> started on development and design next year, whilst filming The Lovely
> Bones. We even had a meeting planned with MGM executives to talk
> through our schedule.
>
> However last week, Mark Ordesky called Ken and told him that New Line
> would no longer be requiring our services on the Hobbit and the LOTR
> 'prequel'. This was a courtesy call to let us know that the studio was
> now actively looking to hire another filmmaker for both projects.
>
> Ordesky said that New Line has a limited time option on the film
> rights they have obtained from Saul Zaentz (this has never been
> conveyed to us before), and because we won't discuss making the movies
> until the lawsuit is resolved, the studio is going to have to hire
> another director.
>
> Given that New Line are committed to this course of action, we felt at
> the very least, we owed you, the fans, a straightforward account of
> events as they have unfolded for us.
>
> We have always had the greatest support from The Ringers and we are
> very sorry our involvement with The Hobbit has been ended in this way.
> Our journey into Tolkien's world started with a phone call from Ken
> Kamins to Harvey Weinstein in Nov 1995 and ended with a phone call
> from Mark Ordesky to Ken in Nov 2006. It has been a great 11 years.
>
> This outcome is not what we anticipated or wanted, but neither do we
> see any positive value in bitterness and rancor. We now have no choice
> but to let the idea of a film of The Hobbit go and move forward with
> other projects.
>
> We send our very best wishes to whomever has the privilege of making
> The Hobbit and look forward to seeing the film on the big screen.
>
> Warmest regards to you all, and thanks for your incredible support
> over the years.
>
> We got to go there - but not back again ...
>
> Peter Jackson and Fran Walsh
>
> Xoanon here, this is a big blow to the LOTR community. I feel like
> there has been a death in the family...there are a LOT of questions
> that will remain unanswered for the time being. Why couldn't New Line
> come to an agreement with PJ? Is there really a time option on the
> film rights for New Line? Who will they get to direct? Those are some
> massive shoes to fill if you ask me. I hope that whoever they get to
> direct will not try something 'new' with the look and feel of PJ's
> Middle-earth...and what is this LOTR 'prequel' project?
>
> There have been rumors about The Hobbit being split into two films,
> will this prequel project then become the third film in another
> trilogy? Who knows...
>
> I'm sure Peter and Fran aren't going to want to talk more about this,
> but that doesn't mean we won't be begging for a sitdown and chat! Stay
> tuned for more...
>

<<While I'm sorry that Jackson won't be directing it, I think it will be
interesting to see another artist's 'take' on JRRT.>>

After having seen X-Men: Last Stand I'm not so sure I can agree. I HOPE
whoever they get does as well as Jackson, but I sincerely doubt they will.

Lord, all we need is a lousy "Hobbit" adaptation that is nigh unwatchable or
extremely "Hollywood."

That said, if the project goes forward I hope it is good.

Rob

> While I'm sorry that Jackson won't be directing it, I think it will be
interesting to see another artist's 'take' on JRRT.

I would be concerned that Jackson's focus would be on surpassing the
special effects in his LotR.  It seemed that each movie in the LotR series
went in that direction, to the detriment of the story, and I found scenes
in RotK, such as Legolas' acrobatics to take down an oliphaunt, were just
silly insertions to show off the computer animation team.

One wonders what 'love story' they'll try to pull out of The Hobbit,
comparable to Arwen and Aragorn.

Pippin