Paul King
�
Paul:�Can you explain why�you don't acknowledge what is written in verses 22-23.
�
Russ: It cover it in my 288 page book, not in my 10 page short essay summary. It
is free online as a pdf file and free on my web site.
�
Paul: It is recorded that�Abram made some kind of vow or agreement with God
about the�allotment of the spoil.� This theory is stronger than your pagan
culture theory.
�
Russ: My pagan culture theory is based on what happened in Genesis 14:21 which
YOU skipped over. I found it in the Southern Baptist dominated Wycliffe Bible
Commentary and several other sources. I did not originate it. If the 90% of
14:21were controlled by pagan custom, then the 10% of verse 20 should be also. I
quote several other commentaries in my book to show this contradiction.
�
Paul: Even though there is no recorded demand for a tenth, we can conclude some
type of pledge was made by Abram.�
�
Russ: The pledge was Abram's way of confirming that God could and would bless
him by faith and not by his own works. In the last half of Genesis 12 Abraham
became even more wealthy when he actually lied about his sister to Pharaoh.
�
Paul: On that basis,�how did you come up with this�eis-egetical interpretation
of a pagan tradition?�
�
Russ: Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Nelson's Bible Dictionary and International
Standard Bible Encyclopedia. Also see the extensive research by another person
which follows my Essay on page one of my web site. It is not new.
�
Paul: Why do you�exclude the�"God" element�when you�are reaching�your
conclusion?
�
Russ: In Numbers God gave Moses a statute/ordinance which limited tithes from
spoils of war to one per cent and one tenth of one per cent. That is the God
element. It is described in my book which you have not read. They were never
equated with the holy tithes from inside Israel. Why do you ignore that fact?
�
Paul: Circumstantial evidence is a collection of facts that, when considered
together, can be used to infer a conclusion about something unknown.��That may
work in a court room, but not when it comes to�exegeting God's word.�
�
Russ: I am confident that my arguments will stand up in any court --civil or
religious.
�
Paul: Since�you�are an exegete, why is that you don't follow the principle of
exegesis.� Exegesis - The act of establishing meaning of a text from the text
itself.�
�
Russ: I do. The text itself does not say WHY Abram gave a tithe of pagan spoils
of war to a priest-king. The text itself does not say WHO El-Elyon was in
Canaan. The text itself does not reveal that Zedek was the name of Jupiter in
Canaan. Why do you ignore the proven theology of Canaanwhich has been found by
many researchers? Abraham was living in a pagan land and had to obey some pagan
customs. He could not pass through a priest-king's territory and ignore his
rules.
�
Paul: Secondly, why is so hard for you to except what the bible says in Heb 7.
that Paul, the author of the book of Hebrews, in recounting Gen. 14: 17-20
considered the Levitical priest who descended from Abraham and who appeared
centuries later as having paid tithes to Melchizedek through Abraham.�
�
Russ: Again read my book. The tithing command of Hebrews 7:5 was "of necessity
changed" in 7:12and that "change" was its "annulment" in 7:18. To me that is
extremely clear!
�
Paul: Why would Paul connect the two dispensations? If Abram did something
paganistic why would Paul�mention him as an example to the Hebrews?
�
Russ: Paul is contrasting the "historical" Melchizedek of Genesis 14 with the
"Messianic" Melchizedek of Psalm 110 and the "typical" Melchizedek of Hebrews 7.
It was the OFFICE of the historical Melchizedek which was typical --his office
was that of king-priest. He was only the king of righteous "by interpretation of
his name."
�
Paul: You attribute Abram actions as following Pagan practices.�����
�
Russ: God can and does change pagan types to refer to holy things.
(1) To the Canaanite El-Elyon was a well known god around the world of Abraham's
time. Abraham recognized that the real El-Elyon was actually Yahweh.
(2) In the OT God revealed himself to Israelprimarily as Yahweh. In the NT God
reveals himself as El Elyon, God most high TO ALL NATIONS.
(3) The brass serpent became a symbol of salvation in Moses' time. Acknowledge
your sins.
(4) Cyrus of Persia is called "my servant."
(5) The Babylonian army in Habakkuk is God's army to punish Israel.
(6) The CROSS of shame is now a symbol of victory.
You, my friend, do not understand how the Bible uses TYPOLOGY.
�
Russ Kelly
�

________________________________

�
�
�russell-kelly@...
www.tithing-russkelly.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tithi
ng-Study/

Reply to Pastor Keith Troop, Reformed Pastor Blog, by Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
 
http://reformedbaptist.blogspot.com/2009/11/tithing-good-place-to-start.html
 
Keith: As a pastor I have often been asked over the years whether or not I think
Christians should tithe, and my response is usually, “I think it is a good
place to start.”
 
Russ: At the start you betray a fundamental misunderstanding of the biblical
tithe. Though money was common, the biblical tithe was always only food from
inside Israeland it only applied to food producers who lived inside Israel. It
never applied to craftsmen such as carpenters, fishermen or tentmakers. There
was no minimum standard starting point for giving in either testament.
 
Keith: For example, many Christians today rightly observe that we are no longer
under the Mosaic law (Rom. 6:14-15; Gal. 3:10-23) and that, since tithing was a
part of this Mosaic Law (Lev. 27:30-34; Num. 18:20-21; Deut. 14:22-29), we are
therefore no longer required to continue the practice.
 
Russ: "We" the Church, mostly Gentiles, were never under the Old Covenant law at
all. "We" the Church, mostly Gentiles never had a Levitical priesthood or
Templesystem to support.
 
Keith: In addition, it is observed (argued) that since tithing is not
explicitly taught as a requirement in the New Testament, we have another
reason that it is not a necessary practice for Christians.
 
Russ: Acts 21:20strongly implies that the Jewish Christians in Judeanever did
stop paying tithes to the Templesystem. Both the OT priesthood and Templenow
reside within the individual believer who does not tithe to himself.


Keith: I agree that there is no clear New Testament teaching commanding
Christians to tithe, and this is why the elders at ImmanuelBaptistChurch (among
whom I serve) do not demand that anyone tithe. But that doesn't mean that we
would not encourage tithing as a good and godly practice or, as I stated
earlier, as a good place to start with one's giving.
 
Russ: Church history records that the early leaders for several centuries
boasted about their extreme asceticism. Tithing was seen as a purely Jewish
custom for over 200 years after Calvaryand did not become a legal law for the
church until AD777.

Keith: First, tithing was the example of godly men before the giving of the
Mosaic law. For example: Genesis 14:18-20 and Genesis 28:20-22. What they
describe is a good response to God that has been recorded for our benefit. …
In fact, I think it may be best to assume that Abraham and Jacob got the idea
from God in the first place. But wherever they got the idea, the fact is that
the practice was around and found to be good in God's sight …
 
Russ: Both Abraham and Jacob got the idea of tithing from Babylon, Canaanite
tradition and practices all around the known world of their time. There is
absolutely no biblical support for the claim that God either commanded them to
tithe or even approved it. In Jacob's case, his was a freewill vow wrapped
around a condition made by the great manipulator and supplanter.
 
Nothing done by Abraham is followed by any church today. (1) only pagan spoils
of war which were disqualified by the law, (2) only once recorded, (3) not his
own pre-existing property, (4) he kept nothing, gave it all back and (5) he gave
the 90% to the king of Sodom.
 
Keith: And we know that God approved of their tithing, for He later incorporated
tithing into the Mosaic law as we have already seen. … before its
incorporation into the Mosaic law, which should at least give us some pause
about being so quick to dismiss it as simply a part of the Mosaic law that has
passed away.
 
Russ: The only part of Abraham's tithe which was incorporated into the Law of
Moses is found in Numbers 31 where the tithe of spoils was only one percent.
None of Jacob's tithe from the pagan defiled landof Haranwould qualify under the
law.
 
Keith: Second, tithing was affirmed by Jesus as a good thing. For example:
NKJ Matthew 23:23
Jesus clearly says that tithing is something they “ought to have done,” even
if He sees the kind of tithing spoken of here as not being among the
“weightier matters” of the law. But we must also remember that Jesus warned
against the legalistic practice of tithing that does not come from the heart:
 
Russ: Matthew 23:23is before Calvaryand the law was still in full force.
Therefore, Jesus MUST teach tithing as a "matter of the law." He could not have
commanded his Gentiles disciples to tithe.
 
Keith: Luke 18:10-14
It is this kind of legalism that so many Christians fear today with respect to
the practice of tithing, and they are right to seek to avoid such legalism.
 
Russ: No. Tithing ended at Calvarywhen the system it was legislated to support
ended. Its covenant, Levites, Levitical cities, priesthood, sacrificial system
and ritual all ended. Today no church obeys any of the tithing statute found in
Numbers 18 which required tithe-recipients to forfeit property ownership and
KILL anybody who dared to enter the sanctuary to worship God directly.
 
Keith: I would hasten to add that just because something may be done in a
legalistic way does not mean that it cannot be practiced in a proper way that
recognizes that all that we have is by the grace of God.
 
Russ: All that we had also belonged to God in the Old Covenant but that was
never used as grounds to accept tithes from outside of God's holy land of
Israel.
 
Keith: I would also warn against using the charge of legalism as an excuse to be
stingy with what God has given us.
 
Russ: The "equality principle" of 2nd Corinthians 8:12-15 teaches Christians to
give sacrificially. For many that means MORE than 10% but others are giving
sacrificially even though giving less.

Keith: Now, as for Matthew 23:23, Jesus is dealing with those who were still
under the law, and thus we cannot say that He intended here to enjoin the
practice of tithing upon the NewCovenantChurch.
 
Russ: You understand this correctly.
 
Keith: But we can say that He approved of and encouraged tithing as a godly
practice if done with the right motives.
 
Russ: Only for those who were still obligated by the law to support the
Templesystem.

Keith: Third, the means of supporting the Levites under the Old Covenant is
affirmed by Paul as a good example for Christians to follow in support of their
ministers under the New Covenant.
 
Russ: No. Verse 13 opens the door for EVERY means of supporting the Levites and
priests found in Numbers 18 --not merely tithing. Your argument is
self-defeating because you want to only keep tithing and discard the rest.
 
Keith: 1 Corinthians 9:1-14 Paul does not explicitly mention the tithes that
were given to the Lord for the sustaining of the Levitical priesthood, but the
tithe was definitely a primary means of their support.
 
Russ: Actually the tenth of the tithe for the priests was one of the smallest
means of support. The full tithe went to the Levites who were paid to perform
duties as ushers, deacons, choir, musicians, politicians, etc, etc. The church
does not follow that pattern.
 
Keith: And Paul clearly does see the concept of their sharing in what is given
by the people as a model for the support of pastors today.
 
Russ: You miss the point. Verse 14 is a summary of 7-13, not just 13. The
principle is that each vocation has its own rules for support. The gospel
worker's rule if "to live of the gospel" under gospel principles of grace and
faith. Do  not forget what Paul wrote in 9:12, 15-19 and Acts 20:29-35. He was
not violating his own code of conduct.
 
Keith: Thus we certainly could say that tithing is a good idea, even if not
something that can be demanded (for to demand it when Scripture does not would
be the very kind of legalism Jesus despised).
 
Russ: No. If it were a good idea, the Holy Spirit would have clearly repeated it
in terms of Calvary. NT giving principles are: freewill, generous, SACRIFICIAL,
joyful, not by commandment (or percentage) and motivated by love for God and
lost souls. The problem with most churches is a failure to teach personal
evangelism.
 
Keith: 1 Corinthians 16:2
 
Russ: This text has absolutely nothing to say about church supports or pastoral
salaries. It is not about tithing.
 
Keith: Fourth, tithing is a good way to honor Christ as our High Priest and
King. Hebrews 7:1-8
 
Russ: Those who teach tithing from Hebrews 7 always stop before verse 12. The
chapter is about the necessary change of the priesthood from Aaron to Christ.
The change necessitated a change of the law which funded that priesthood from
7:5 and 7:12. The change was not "from Aaron to the Gospel worker." Rater the
change was from Aaron to the "annulment" of the law from 7:5 which included
tithing.
 
Keith: John Piper
 
Russ: I have refuted Piper's arguments on my web site under rebuttals.
 
Keith: Tithing is like a constant offering of the first fruits of the whole
thing. The tenth is yours, O, Lord, in a special way, because all of it is yours
in an ordinary way. I believe the tithe should be the first check we write after
the income deposit is made in the bank.
 
Russ: This is selfish and greedy. It robs many of the money needed to buy
medicine and essential food and shelter. It violates Paul's principle found in
1st Timothy 5:8. Most of all, it is unbiblical because tithes and firstfruits
are NEVER the same thing in Scripture. See Deu 26:1-4 and Neh 10:35-37 for
examples.
 
Keith: I do think that I can encourage tithing as a godly practice for
Christians to follow in their giving, at least as a good place to start, which
leads me to my next question.
 
Russ: Again you ignore the definition and purpose of the biblical tithe. If it
was not the "good place to start" for OT Hebrews, then it cannot be so for
Christians.


Keith: Although Christians are not commanded to tithe in the New Testament, we
are certainly encouraged to give in proportion to what we have, to give
self-sacrificially so long as we can do so with a cheerful heart, and to be
encouraged to give by remembering that we cannot out-give God, who will always
provide for us.
 
Russ: Agreed.
 
Keith: I think God took the focus off giving a tithe in the early church because
he wants his people to ask themselves a new question. The question that Jesus
drives us to ask again and again is not, "How much should I give?" but rather,
"How much dare I keep?"
 
Russ: In early church history, this attitude led to extreme asceticism and,
later, monasticism. They took Jesus' words to the rich young ruler literally.
 
Keith: By and large the Old Testament people of God were not a missionary
people.
 
Russ: No tithes were ever used to send out missionaries to convert the Gentiles
around them.
 
Keith: The task he gave us is so immense and requires such a stupendous
investment of commitment and money that the thought of settling the issue of
what we give by a fixed percentage (like a tenth) is simply out of the question.
 
Russ: Then what is the purpose of this article? You can teach NT giving without
mentioning tithing.
 
Keith: My own conviction is that most middle and upper class Americans who
merely tithe are robbing God.
 
Russ: You echo J. Vernon McGee but he opposed using the word "tithe."
 
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
www.tithing-russkelly.com
 russell-kelly@...
www.tithing-russkelly.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tithi
ng-Study/

When Paul persecuted the Church, he did this in "ignorance" - though he may have
thought he was doing God a great service to preserve the Truth. What a wonderful
and merciful God we serve! (Phil. 3:3-15)

Some leaders of the "Church" exacte monies from God's people through this same
ignorance. This awareness (comming to the truth) comes to us, sometimes quickly,
sometimes slowly - sometimes not at all! God's work through Russell has been a
wonderful detailed expose' of what I have experienced in the Church concerning
tithing.

To those who have been brought from darkness to light are made free by TRUTH!
Often when faced with the truth we recoil. (John 8:1-59)

We are to speak evil of no man, knowing that we were at one time captured by the
same unbelief - to some degree.(Titus 3:2-7) However, we are to reprove and
expose all who oppose the truth.

We should not be surprised by what is happening in the Church and ministries.
(II Tim. 3:1-17)

We posted this on a �local forum (N0v. '09):

In many churches, a 10% "tithe" of your income is required for leadership and membership. In the blatant misrepresentation of God's Word, trusting people are taught to pay 10% of their gross income to the "church" (in many cases, it simply goes straight into a pastors ministerial account).

Shockingly, there is NOT ONE VERSE ever given to Christians or the churches in the New Testament instructing anyone to pay "your tithes". Most of them resort to a twisting of old covenant ordinances from a Covenant God never made with us. They will often use Malachi 3:8 which says
"Will a man rob God? yet ye rob me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

The last time I heard Mal 3:10 quoted in
church, the Lord drew my attention to vs. 7 before it: "ye are gone away from my
ORDINANCES"
He asked me "what ordinances were those?"
As I studied and prayed for the answer, it dawned on me,� it was the ordinances of the OT Law.�
But
the NEW Testament says "Christ is THE END of the Law to all that believe.."- Romans 10:4. and then again St. Paul said in Eph.
2:15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances
As I studied further, it was discovered none of the apostles ever once told any church or saint to tithe�

Then I discovered that the tithe was NEVER money, it was ALWAYS food.
Here is a Bible Word search.
Just select Old Testament, enter: "tithe", and presto! See for yourself...

Someone redefined the tithe into money.
We have the new breed of "moneychangers", transubstantiating the edible tithe into a cozy income for the hired ministry.�
Some try to justify tithing using Abraham, back in Genesis. But Abraham only tithed ONE TIME, and that from the spoils of war. Then Abe turned right around and gave the other 90% away!

The church will say"but tithing was BEFORE the Law". Ok, one tithe is found before the law. -from the spoils of war. Then later, Jesus said in Mat 23;23 "tithing is of the matters of the law..." So they think they can put you and me back under that tithe law because of Abraham...?? �
(Jacob promised to tithe from his livestock but no record is given of where, to whom, or what. �So it is pretty hard to extract 10% of your money from Jacob's 'example")

-Now remember, under the law, the tithe was ALWAYS edible, NEVER money.
I think we have all been robbed by an institution that has redefined tithing for its own benefit.�
Now we give directly to meet the needs of the brethren and others.�
What a blessing it is to do so.�

While you are thinking about this, you might ask yourself, where in the Bible does it say pastors should live from the tithes? -either food OR money?
-And why didn't St. Paul, Peter, or any other of the apostles even once remind the saints to pay a tithe?
-And why didn't Jesus ever pay tithes of either money or food?

-and what verse gives a pastor sole authority over a church?

We posted to her blog but it "still awaits approval".......

Who Do You Think You Are?
http://kingdomidentity.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/tithes-and-offerings/
 
Rina: The Bible says, “Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there
may be food in My house and try Me now in this, says the Lord of hosts, ‘If I
will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you such blessing
that there will not be room enough to receive it.’” (Malachi 3:10).
 
Russ: The LITERAL context of the above verses is only addressed to national
Israel under the Old Covenant as only one of over 600 commands --breaking ANY
brought a curse per Galatians 3:10. In the texts the tithe is still only food
from inside Israel and, sicne the definition never changed, then noen of us can
really tithe today (and neither did Jesus, Peter or Paul).
 
Rina: God is not just talking about financial blessings but also spiritual ones.
 
Russ: Sounds nice, but it is not biblical.
 
Rina: In essence, when we tithe, God will open heaven into our lives.
 
Russ: The context is the curses and blessings repeated by Malachi's audience in
Nehemiah 10:29 wich repeats Deuteronomy 28:11, 12 and 23 which are totally
ignored.
 
Rina: Hence, whatever is free to operate in heaven is free to operate in our
lives because of our obedience to tithing. 
 
Russ: God never commanded the Gentiles or the Church to tithe in the New
Covenant after Calvary. The entire Old Covenant, including tithing, VANISHED in
Hebrews 8:13.
 
Rina: When we step out in faith and give away money we put confidence in God’s
promise.
 
Russ: We do not put confidence in any part of the law. Believers are dead to the
law per Romans 7:4.
 
Rina: When the promise is fulfilled in our lives, it breeds a greater desire to
believe what God has promised.
 
Russ: Only post-Calvary promises are in operation today. God does not operate
today using Old Covenant promises.
 
Rina: Faith leads to faith, or an increase in faith.  Anytime we limit our
ability for a greater belief in His ability, we will grow in our identity and
receive spiritual blessing.
 
Russ: True, but Law-keeping does not lead to faith. Much better Grace principles
of giving are found in 2nd Cor 8 and 9.
 
Rina: In the Bible, Jacob provides a great example of an individual who had
great confidence in his own ability.  He has a tremendous encounter with God
that radically changes his life.  The first change that he makes in his
lifestyle is in the area of his finances.  (Genesis 28:22)
Jacob was secure enough in God’s revelation of His character to put himself in
a position of financial dependence on God.
 
Russ: No. He told God what to do. He set the conditions and parameters. This is
not an example for Christians to follow. "God, if you bless me FIRST, then I
will give to you."
Rina: The Apostle Paul understood this principle and he taught it to the
Philippians.  Paul writes, “Not that I seek the gift, but I seek the fruit
that abounds to your account.” (Philippians 4:17)  Paul is saying, “Look, I
don’t want your money, I want you to receive the spiritual and physical
benefits of a radically generous lifestyle.”  This principle was honored by
God in the life of Cornelius.
 
Russ: Tithing is totally OUT of the picture with Paul. Nothing from defiled
pagan dust could be offered as a holy tithe. Paul gave sacrificial freewill
offerings. WE cannot tithe a biblical tithe.
Rina: Cornelius is in prayer and God fulfills His promise and “opens heaven”
over Cornelius.  An angel appears to him and says, “Cornelius, your prayer
has been heard and your alms are remembered in the sight of God.” (Acts
10:31)  It was because of his radical generosity in making financial offerings
(alms) that God chose him to be the first of the Gentiles to receive salvation
and subsequent, baptism in the Spirit.
 
Russ: Again, tithing is NOT in the picture at all. Gentiles were not allowed to
tithe. They were alllowed to give pagan money which would be cleansed by buring
and exchanged in the Temple.
 
Rina: It’s one thing for us to seek God for an increase in anointing and it is
quite another thing when God seeks after us because of our radical generosity.
 
Russ: This is a New Covenant giving principles which replaces tithing.
 
Rina: The Shunamite woman of the Old Testament, demonstrates this principle in
her dealings with Elisha.  She radically and generously used her resources to
provide for the prophet and his servant.  Because of her giving, the prophet
seeks to impart something into her life.  (2 Kings 4:14)  Again, it is one
thing to seek an impartation from a man of God but quite another when the man of
God seeks you out because of your generosity. 
 
Russ: There is not hint that the Shulamite woman tithes. Your examples do not
support your premise.
 
Rina:  Generosity, tithes, and offerings can ensure that we grow in our
identity.  It puts us in a position of faith to receive impartation from both
God and His ministers.  This transference will cause us to grow up in God. 
Subsequently, leaving behind our old identity.
 
Russ: Read the tithing statute/ordinance of Numbers 18 and tell me which of the
tithing commands is followed by any Church today. NONE of them are. Does your
pastor own  or inherit property? If so, he/she is a tithe-breaker. 2 Cor
8:12-15 is good enough for all of us.
 
Russ Kelly
www.tithing-russkelly.com
 
 
 russell-kelly@...
www.tithing-russkelly.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tithi
ng-Study/

----- Original Message -----

From: jbbaab

To: Tithing-Study@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 5:33 AM

Subject: [Tithing-Study] How Spirit Led Giving Could Transform the Church

 

Hey all,
Ever wonder what would happen if we eliminated the tithe, and practiced Spirit led giving? I Just wrote a new post on the blog titled, "How Spirit led Giving Could Transform the Church"
Check out the link here- http://churchtithesandofferings.com/blog/how-spirit-led-giving-could-transform-the-church/ 

- jared
http://churchtithesandofferings.com/blog/

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4597 (20091111) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

Thank you Dr. Kelly and everyone else for their input, I am reading the rebuttal
now, I am so glad we didn't get Advancini's books when he was peddling them, He
sure sounded convincing, I am so glad the truth is finally coming out about
these gospel peddlers, abusing the poor for personal gain.  I pray it resounds
through this land and people see the truth about this.  God bless you all from
Don and Brenda

--- In Tithing-Study@yahoogroups.com, Russell Kelly <russell-kelly@...> wrote:
>
> Check out my site under Rebuttals for two articles on Avancini and one long
article on Ramsey. My site gets 7-10 hits per day on Ramsey. Except for his
tithing abuse and constant use of "friggin" I like Ramsey.
> �russell-kelly@...
> www.tithing-russkelly.com
>

I like Ramsey too.  I just have to suppose he and a few well intentioned men
simply have taken the bait on tithing, thought it sounds good without studying
it, and pushed it as if it was God's word. They have a responsibility to study,
as they bear the stronger judgement.  It's a shame they became purveyors of
false doctrine because of their own indoctrination into tradition rather than
God's word.

Didn't Jesus warn us to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees?  Even the good
hearted may unwittingly spread the leaven.  Consider how Paul, who epitomized
fervency for God had to have revelation of the truth stopping him in his tracks.
We need to pray for these who have good hearts to know the truth and speak it.

Randy

--- In Tithing-Study@yahoogroups.com, Russell Kelly <russell-kelly@...> wrote:
>
> Check out my site under Rebuttals for two articles on Avancini and one long
article on Ramsey. My site gets 7-10 hits per day on Ramsey. Except for his
tithing abuse and constant use of "friggin" I like Ramsey.
> �russell-kelly@...
> www.tithing-russkelly.com
>

Check out my site under Rebuttals for two articles on Avancini and one long
article on Ramsey. My site gets 7-10 hits per day on Ramsey. Except for his
tithing abuse and constant use of "friggin" I like Ramsey.
�russell-kelly@...
www.tithing-russkelly.com

----- Original Message -----

From: heartsong52

To: Tithing-Study@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 1:03 PM

Subject: [Tithing-Study] How is everyone doing

 

Just a note to say Hi, and bless you to the group, been thinking about Malachi, I can clearly see now that this tithe that Malachi was speaking of was under the law plain and simple and not for the new testement church. Has anyone dealt with John Avancini, he worked for TBN and wrote extensively on Tithe and giving.
I am so thankful that Paul was a tentmaker and didn't take money from the church, He was very adment about it. I know the Lord will take care of those who preach his true Gospel without putting heavy burdens of tithe on people. Thanks from Don and Brenda

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Just a note to say Hi, and bless you to the group, been thinking about
Malachi, I can clearly see now that this tithe that Malachi was speaking of was
under the law plain and simple and not for the new testement church.   Has
anyone dealt with John Avancini, he worked for TBN and wrote extensively on
Tithe and giving.
    I am so thankful that Paul was a tentmaker and didn't take money from the
church, He was very adment about it.  I know the Lord will take care of those
who preach his true Gospel without putting heavy burdens of tithe on people. 
Thanks from Don and Brenda

Amazon.com and Wal Mart are currently in a price war for books. My book
is�$13.98 instead�of $20.95 with free shipping over $25.00 (2). Now is the time
to buy and get some Christmas presents.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keyword\
s=Russell+Earl+Kelly&x=16&y=22
�russell-kelly@...
www.tithing-russkelly.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tithi
ng-Study/

Good work! What about sacrifices and alms? Should they be added too?



--- In Tithing-Study@yahoogroups.com, "bro_george_nmt" <gwgreene@...> wrote:
>
> We all understand that the popular interpretation is "freewill offerings". 
Personally, I think that is just a quick answer to get more money from
well-intentioned believers. I won't attempt o explain what it means because I
don't know.  I do know that NO Christians practice ALL the offerings that were
required in the Law.  Here is a list that includes most of them:
>   Ex 30:10 -16           Annual atonement
>   Ex 29:18                   Burnt offering
>   Ex 13:12                   First offspring of every womb
>   Ex 29:40                   Drink offering
>   Lev 3:1                      Fellowship offering
>   Lev 22:18                 Freewill offering
>   Ex 29:41                   Grain offering
>   Num 5:15                 Grain offering for jealousy
>   Lev 5:15                    Guilt offering
>   Num 5:26                 Memorial offering
>   Num 28:14               Monthly burnt offering
>   Lev 7:37                    Ordination offering
>   Lev 19:24                  Praise offering for new fruit trees
>   Num 19:17               Purification offering
>   Num 5:15                  Reminder offering
>   Ex 29:14                   Sin offering
>   Lev 7:12                    Thank offering
>
> For those that insist on trying to "tithe", their failure to keep the rest of
Malachi 3:8 "Offerings" sometimes gets their attention.
>
> George
>

We all understand that the popular interpretation is "freewill offerings". 
Personally, I think that is just a quick answer to get more money from
well-intentioned believers. I won't attempt o explain what it means because I
don't know.  I do know that NO Christians practice ALL the offerings that were
required in the Law.  Here is a list that includes most of them:
   Ex 30:10 -16           Annual atonement
   Ex 29:18                   Burnt offering
   Ex 13:12                   First offspring of every womb
   Ex 29:40                   Drink offering
   Lev 3:1                      Fellowship offering
   Lev 22:18                 Freewill offering
   Ex 29:41                   Grain offering
   Num 5:15                 Grain offering for jealousy
   Lev 5:15                    Guilt offering
   Num 5:26                 Memorial offering
   Num 28:14               Monthly burnt offering
   Lev 7:37                    Ordination offering
   Lev 19:24                  Praise offering for new fruit trees
   Num 19:17               Purification offering
   Num 5:15                  Reminder offering
   Ex 29:14                   Sin offering
   Lev 7:12                    Thank offering

For those that insist on trying to "tithe", their failure to keep the rest of
Malachi 3:8 "Offerings" sometimes gets their attention.

George

I recently compiled a list of all my visitors who "out clicked" with one of my
tithe documents open.  I have grouped it by country (93 so far counting USA).  I
also broke down outclicked visits by State in USA.

But in the first part of this pdf file, I included "search words" entered by
visitors who came to my website.  I think you will find this ... interesting?

The way you can get to this is by going to Tithing-Study home page, then on left
side click "Files", then ""Pro-Giving" then "Robin Calamaio" then just click on
the file "Tithe Visitors".

I am sure there is an easier way to get to this, so maybe someone with better
skills will share that in reply.

I think this will be interesting to look through.  This teaching has gone far
and wide - and we have great opportunity to defend the faith on the actual
financial callings from God.

Robin Calamaio

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Tithing-Study
group.

   File        : /Pro - Giving/Robin Calamaio/1+-+Tithe+Visitors[1].pdf
   Uploaded by : robgusfox <robertgfox@...>
   Description : 1 - Tithe Visitors

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tithing-Study/files/Pro%20-%20Giving/Robin%20Calam\
aio/1%2B-%2BTithe%2BVisitors%5B1%5D.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

robgusfox <robertgfox@...>

1. �as with tithing, there are no scriptures mandating a salay income for any minister of the New Testament church.

2. The 501c3 non-profit (lol)� organizations (like BGEA) �and many of the local churches, are married to the "beast", the government which is a kingdom of this world,� by legal agreement. "What agreement has light with darkness, what concord has Christ with Belial?"

Only in Christianity does the "church" marry the unbelievers of a world kingdom in the name of "charitable" tax deductions.

�

Great testimony, Robin.

Since I didn't become a Christian until the age of 48, I was never indoctrinated
into these false church teachings.  Being an accountant and Income Tax Auditor,
when I started going to church I immediately knew something was wrong when the
pastor talked about tithing from "gross income."  I doubted the pastor knew the
definition of "gross income," and even if he did, most of the congregation would
not have since it is an accounting term with a specific meaning.  Therefore, I
didn't buy-in to the tithing idea to begin with.

Over time, hearing the tithing message over and over I began to wonder.  I
believe I might have tithed once or twice in my life.  I would always give from
the heart regardless of what they taught.  It just didn't set with me.  Also, my
closest friend discovered while still in his twenties that tithing had ended at
the cross.  But why would I believe him when ever pastor I had heard was
teaching tithing?

Finally, in January of 2008, my pastor asked if I would teach a Sunday School
Class in finances.  It was then that I decided to settle the tithing issue once
and for all.  When I began my studies, I was shocked at what I was finding. 
Needless to say, when I presented what I had learned to my pastor, I was banned
from teaching at that church.  HOWEVER, the pastor said he would study the
topic.  Within two weeks he had stopped teaching Malachi (robbing God), and
gradually started teaching more giving and less tithing.  When I left that
church almost a year ago, he had stopped teaching tithing all together.  But I
am hearing that he started teaching tithing again after I left which shows me
his dishonesty.

--- In Tithing-Study@yahoogroups.com, Robin Calamaio <robincalamaio@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Gary. I thought about this a bit more.
>
> You know, part of the problem with this propagation of the tithe is that young
Christians are often so trusting of those occupying leadership positions in the
church.  Thinking back on those early days - because all the churches I attended
taught it (or some said nothing to refute it) I automatically assumed that must
be God's will.  After all, God did use other material going forth from those
churches and people in my conversion and growth.  And the ones that did teach
tithing were very aggressive about it.  That included Dr Kennedy at that time
and the offshoots of his work like The Greenhouse and other local PCA churches -
Presbyterian Church of America).  In fact, when you joined those churches I
remember some kind of vow statement you agreed to.  I remember that one PCA
church I had joined (Calvary Presbyterian) had something to the effect that as a
member, even if I quit attending, my tithes were still due that church. Somehow
I had run across that
>  after I had moved from Fort Lauderdale to Pompano Beach (to go on staff at a
drug rehab) and panic struck as I had not been giving 10% to that Fort
Lauderdale Church.  I called the pastor as I was afraid I was now in trouble
with God - while on staff at a Christian drug rehab!  I had enough trouble on my
hands without now having a scowling God upon me.  That pastor graciously told me
not to worry about it.  But I still did not examine the tithe teaching at that
time. What got me on to it was "a side door event."  As we were imposing "The
Sabbath Rest" on our clients (no work, no throwing a football, no recreation -
just church and Bible and other "holy pursuits") I was confronted by one of our
recovereing alcoholics.  Here is an accouting of that event from one of my
articles "Breadth of Mind and the Bible - Spiritually" under the subhead
"Retardant 2: Hero Worship".
>
> "As a young Christian, I was a counselor at a Drug and Alcohol Rehabilitation
Center.  One recovering client came to me - challenging our imposed,
ministry-wide, Sabbath keeping policy.  He forwarded this passage: “Let no one
act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a
new moon or a Sabbath day - things which are a mere shadow of what is to come;
the body of Christ” (Col 2:16,17).  The preacher who was doctrinally behind
this rehabilitation ministry ... was a “giant” in the faith.  Dr. D. James
Kennedy had thousands flocking to his church every week, founded the worldwide
Evangelism Explosion program, built a church that was the sign of the fish (the
“icthus” for those flying over) with a cross-topped steeple that was the
highest point in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.  He had a radio and television
ministry ... and often spoke memorized Koine Greek from the pulpit.  And a
recovering drunk, who soon returned to
>  his debauchery, was challenging this giant and scholar - as well as the
leadership and board of our rehabilitation ministry?  Was I to believe - this
drunk - or all the heralded, acclaimed, seminary-trained scholars above me?  The
answer is ... neither.  The challenge set before me was the same it has always
been and will always will be ... search the scriptures and “examine everything
carefully holding fast to the good” (1Thess 5:21).  In this instance, the
soon-to-relapse drunk, was handling the Scriptures accurately.  In fact, that
entire denomination is in grave error on the Mosaic Law and its place and
purpose post-cross.  Thanks, Kenny.  I hope you have been able to avail
victorious power from the One who walked out of His tomb."
>
> This event is what began my inquiry into the Law, and that is how the tithe
issue came to the fore.  But it never occurred to me as a young Christian that
on such a basic subject as money all these unified voices could be
misrepresenting God.  I believed they had His interests at heart - and my
interests at heart - not theirs.  I hope they all grew out of this teaching,
too.
>
> Robin Calamaio
> http://www.freelygive-n.com

Kennedy is more right than he is wrong. Read my article at
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/id71.html
�russell-kelly@...
www.tithing-russkelly.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tithi
ng-Study/

Robin - It is my understanding that Dr. Kennedy took NO salary from Coral Ridge
Ministries.  Also, I believe his teaching of tithing was really not the same as
others.  If I am not mistaken, Dr. Kennedy said you should pay medical expenses,
and other expenses, BEFORE paying any tithe to the church.

--- In Tithing-Study@yahoogroups.com, Robin Calamaio <robincalamaio@...> wrote:
>
> This just really makes me sad.  No Christian will answer to me,so that is not
even in the picture.  "To his own Master he stands or falls ..." (Rom 14:4) -
and hopefully, if it is the right thing to do, "stand he will."  But rest
assured of this - I am glad I have never contributed to that organization.  I do
not know about the rest of you, but money has never come easy to me. I have
always been a worker, but I have never been highly motivated by money for
money's sake, even in my pre-Christian days.  Money is necessary and it is
important how we use it before God - but it is simply a tool in life to be
related to in a balanced and honest way.  My point?  When I give, I want my
money to actually accomplish something in God's agenda.  Such excesses makes you
wonder if God is still in any of that work.
>
> Unfortunately, this article, and this excess, does not surprise me.  But how
in the world this man - and everyone involved in this - could send out any other
appeal for cash ever from brothers and sisters who have trusted in this groups
integrity - the gall is just repulsive.  My sadness is rapidly being supplanted
by anger. May God deliver us from having our money go to fuel for the fire.  God
Almighty, give us wisdom, grant usinsight, and allow us the priviledge to invest
our cash and labors in Your agenda and work.  If you grant this, we will forever
give You thanks.
>
> Dr. Kelley, thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention.  And for the
record, though I escaped this group, in my early Christian days, D.James Kennedy
at Coral Ridge Presbetyrian in Fort Lauderdale extracted some of my cash before
I had enough study time to escape.  Ignorance does extract a price from us.
>
> Robin Calamaio
> http://www.freelygive-n.com