In a message dated 9/10/99 4:02:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Alison.Williams@... writes:

<<
  I think we probably disagree profoundly about this. Would you be happy to
  agree to disagree? I am intrigued by your views - what would you say about
  the content/spirit/subject matter of haiku and tanka. Would you closely
  follow Japanese tradition in this also?
   >>

Dear Alison:

What journals choose to publish or not publish in no way alters the
definition.  Every dictionary and lexicon I own (5) all define Haiku as a
verse form based on a (5) (7) (5) syllable form.

Now, again, as said, many Haiku written in Japanese and other languages other
than English may not render into a (5) (7) (5) arrangement once
translated...and journals cater to international audiences, thereby much of
the poems may in fact be subject to this effect.  It does not alter the
original and iron clad definition.
I say this knowing many traditional Zen writers and Japanese poets who would
shake their heads sadly at the suggestion that the beat or cadence differ
markedly from the traditions.  It is the very rigid requirement that so
empowers the art and requires the writer to achieve ultimate illumination
within the confines defined.

Further, I agree with your statement that I would also likely think that most
Haiku subject matter be on nature, Zen, philosophy, love and sudden
psychological transformations.  It certainly provides a sound basis for
critique.  However, even in traditional Japanese Zen verse, humor,
outrageousness and even shock value are utilized.  The intent always, however
is to place the reader in a "new system of thought or reflection."  As one of
my favorite Zen writers remarked when asked about "good" versus "bad" Haiku,
"Ahah! is good."  He did not say what bad was, but one might guess that a
Haiku that did not possess the bright flavor of "ahah!" would be "bad."

You suggest that I am indulging in some personal semantic hard line
interpretation when I suggest that Haiku is (5) (7) (5)...but I assure you
that most publications that I have worked for as an editor would not consider
a submission a Haiku, or accept for publication in a Haiku Book or journal, a
poem that did not fulfill these basic rules.  Now, if you want to call it
"experimental Haiku derived form" or "NeoHaiku" I have no objections...but it
is like the word chair.  Why is a chair not a stool?  What are the commonly
held definitions or archetypical forms of "chair?"

If it has no back, is it a chair?  No.  If it has only one leg, is it a
chair?  No?  Three legs?  No?  Two legs?  No? (unless it is a "broken" chair)
Does it have to function as a chair?  No.  It can be a huge building size
chair, but people will still say, "Oh, My God...look at the huge chair!"

So, my final response to all of this is...if your style of poem were printed
in a number of journals and books and not labeled "Haiku" would anyone
reading them say,"Ah, look here is a neat haiku!" ?  I think not.  They would
say, "here is a neat poem" or "here is a neat thought."

Now, if someone (you or me or anyone else) were to write some interesting
thoughts down in (5) (7) (5) style, not title them Haiku or suggest that word
at all, would readers familiar with the form upon reading the book or journal
then say, "ah, here is a fun haiku!"   You betcha.

So it is not merely "my opinion" and "all opinions" are equal.  We have
conventions, accepted rules and traditions that form not only the meaning of
categories but of words themselves...and if we try to redefine the meaning of
words arbitrarily, then communication ceases to be possible.  That is not to
say that meanings cannot change or evolve, but the evolution must have some
commonly shared basis or idea in order for it to remain workable.

Here is one for day:

Listen

Listen, a strange sound...
Could this be some untamed beast?
Yes, it is my heart.

-zenbob

Warm Regards,

Zenbob

Everyone I will be going on NO MAIL
until Sat.afternoon.

Zenbob wrote -

>Alison mentioned that she did not observe the syllable form...if not then
how
is it haiku or Tanka?  Although many English translations do not keep this
intact (very difficult to do!) they do follow this rule in the original
Japanese.  So, too must we strive to achieve the same purity of function in
the English language originals.  If translated into Japanese they will
probably lose this pattern...but the beauty and concise relationship of
Tanka
and haiku are based on both rhythm, image and word texture as well as on
the
elements of inversion and surprise.  If we ignore the syllable goals, we
cease to be working in Haiku or Tanka.  It does not cease being poetry if
it
strays from the rhythmic form, but it becomes something other than Tanka or
Haiku.

>It's part of the definition of the words, I am afraid...not merely my
personal opinion.

>Haiku on Haiku

>Me writing Haiku
>I did not like syllables
>Yet they are there.  See?


>Blessings
>Peace,

>Zenbob


Thank you for sharing your personal opinion on the definition of the words
haiku and tanka! I suspect that these words are not so easily pinned down
and defined as you suggest. I have seen many different definitions of what
haiku is and what tanka is.

I assume from what you say that you believe that almost all of what is
published as haiku and tanka in the western world is, in fact, not haiku or
tanka at all. Also I presume you would say that the Haiku Society of
America, the British Haiku Society and a large number of haiku and tanka
journal publishers worldwide have misunderstood what they are about
entirely, and are encouraging the writing and publishing of short forms of
free verse.

I think we probably disagree profoundly about this. Would you be happy to
agree to disagree? I am intrigued by your views - what would you say about
the content/spirit/subject matter of haiku and tanka. Would you closely
follow Japanese tradition in this also?

Alison

the sound
of waves in the wind -
at the altar steps
a green bucket
of fresh flowers

alison

Dear Henry:


small butterflys-
all the old dogs
silence now
silence
of cicadas too


Actually, this is very good, if you are just beginning!  Good form, meter and
transitions...one must stress the end of butterflies to get that last
measure, but that is only a niggling critique...not a flaw or problem...just
an observation based on formal beat.

Alison mentioned that she did not observe the syllable form...if not then how
is it haiku or Tanka?  Although many English translations do not keep this
intact (very difficult to do!) they do follow this rule in the original
Japanese.  So, too must we strive to achieve the same purity of function in
the English language originals.  If translated into Japanese they will
probably lose this pattern...but the beauty and concise relationship of Tanka
and haiku are based on both rhythm, image and word texture as well as on the
elements of inversion and surprise.  If we ignore the syllable goals, we
cease to be working in Haiku or Tanka.  It does not cease being poetry if it
strays from the rhythmic form, but it becomes something other than Tanka or
Haiku.

It's part of the definition of the words, I am afraid...not merely my
personal opinion.

Haiku on Haiku

Me writing Haiku
I did not like syllables
Yet they are there.  See?


Blessings
Peace,

Zenbob

small butterflys-
all the old dogs
silence now
silence
of cicadas too

Lewis Sanders

This is an attempt at tanka.Critque if you
wish.

Sorry all, I've not faded away, its just that I don't have much time.

Zenbob - traditional 5-7-5-7-7? - hmm, personally I'm one of those who
don't think syllables count :-) in English, but I do try to keep something
of the spirit of traditional tanka and an approximation of the form.

Ueda's 'Modern Japanese Tanka' was the first book I found - a wonderful
summary of the development of tanka in Japan - and I've been searching out
others since then.

Jane - enjoyed the translation - I don't know Akiko Baba at all. The 'Salad
Anniversary' translation I have is the one that presents them as three
liners - which is a little strange - it makes them look like haiku. For
example the one that the title is taken from is translated as -

"This tastes great," you said and so
the sixth of July -
our salad anniversary

I would certainly be interested in seeing how the other translation you
mention treats this.

Henry - hope your problems all get sorted out soon.

Alison

Keep posting.I will be on more once our
crisis here.

Very good.

EeeK.We having to move from here so it may
take some time.

Love this.

Alison
        Alison, don't fade away!  Which translation of Tawara's SALAD
ANNIVERSARY  do you have? Juliet Carpenter Winters?  There is another one by
Jack Stamm inwhich he puts them into 5-liners which seem more tanka-like. I
have some copies which I would be glad to send you one if you give me a
postal address. Blessed be! \o/ Jane
At 09:56 AM 09/07/1999 +0100, you wrote:
>From: Alison.Williams@...
>
>
>
>Now that I know there is life out there...  I've just got hold of a
>translation of Tawara Machi's Salad Anniversary.  Has anyone else seen this
>and would like to discuss it?  If not I'll just fade back into the depths
>of cyberspace...
>
>Alison
>
>
>
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Gualala, CA 95445 USA
Fax: 707 884-1853

Hi Everyone,
         Suddenly this list functions! All thanksgiving! I have tried and
tried and nothing I did seemed to  get out. And now you three people are the
energy that makes it function! What a way to go! Yes, pour out your tanka.
Here is one from my latest book of translations from the Japanese of Akiko
Baba's tanka -- Heavenly Maiden Tanka.

when night falls
the clear water of an autumn
river is black
I fear father is fishing
with a hook from hell

http://www.AHAPOETRY.COM
pob 1250
Gualala, CA 95445 USA
Fax: 707 884-1853

Dear Henry:

Your turn.

Hello Henry:

Hope you will, too.

In a message dated 9/7/99 1:56:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Alison.Williams@... writes:

<< Now that I know there is life out there...  I've just got hold of a
  translation of Tawara Machi's Salad Anniversary.  Has anyone else seen this
  and would like to discuss it?  If not I'll just fade back into the depths
  of cyberspace...
   >>

Don't fade...perhaps you might share a few of Machi's writings
however...since most of us probably do not have this text.
Most of us are stuck with Basho, Isa and the Shogun traditions.

Zenbob

Alison:


Doubt lives like termites
Most never seen or noticed
Tiny forgotten
But if left to multiply
Entire towns fall to the earth.


Zenbob

PS, traditional tanka: 5, 7, 5, 7, 7, closing couplet.  Of course
we could also engage in a fun traditional exercise, which is that someone
writes the Haiku (5,7,5) and then others complete it with the (7,7)
couplet...which was the original method.

I've  not  read it.Perhaps you can write
about it on the list.

Very good Alson more please.

Hi.Hope you will post some tanka.

Now that I know there is life out there...  I've just got hold of a
translation of Tawara Machi's Salad Anniversary.  Has anyone else seen this
and would like to discuss it?  If not I'll just fade back into the depths
of cyberspace...

Alison

Yes, I'm here.  Didn't think anyone else was.  Does anyone here write tanka
though? How about this one to get the ball rolling.


on the far hillside
someone else also
watches
as the sun sinks
into haze

alison

Oh yes, we are here.

Hi.

Hello.

Anyone there?

Tess

Hi. Look forward to seeing your work.  Like you I am new to the tanka,
although I have done some haiku before.  My understanding is that where
haiku is supposed to be a clear statement of what *is* in the moment, the
two additional lines of tanka allow for some emotional reaction or comment
on the theme.

Anyhow, rules are to be learned and expanded upon.   I find it best just to
be spontaneous with the haiku, letting whatever is in front of me speak
through me.

Unopened Pot Noodle
Still on my study desk  -
Busy day or lazy soul?

-------------------:) Degasian
-----Original Message-----
From: Tess <wyethia@...>
To: Tanka@onelist.com <Tanka@onelist.com>
Date: 05 May 1999 19:11
Subject: Re: [Tanka] hello


>From: Tess <wyethia@...>
>
>Hi Degasian,
>
>Thank you for the little tanka--I like it.  Tanka is a new form for me and
>I am working on several little ones right now.  I'll post them as soon as
>they are done :)
>
>Tess
>
>At 05:38 PM 4/30/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>From: "Degasian" <degasian@...>
>>
>>Hi Tess - you're right it sure is quiet - hope you like the little tanka
>>
>>Working in the study,
>>Doors ajar letting in the cool breeze -
>>Birdsong a welcome guest.
>>
>>There is peace no, where anger stood;
>>We are nothing but breath on the wind.
>>----------------------------------------------------------:) Degasian
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: wyethia@... <wyethia@...>
>>To: Tanka@onelist.com <Tanka@onelist.com>
>>Date: 27 April 1999 17:54
>>Subject: [Tanka] hello
>>
>>
>>>From: wyethia@...
>>>
>>>Anyone awake? :)
>>>
>>>Hi, my name is Tess.  I see that there are
>>>a few people subbed to this list, but is
>>>sure is quiet.  Anybody ready to begin?
>>>
>>>Tess
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Did you know that knowledge is power?
>>>http://www.ONElist.com
>>>Join a new ONElist e-mail community and strengthen your mind!
>>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>post events of interest to your community?
>>http://www.onelist.com
>>Check out our homepage for details.
>>
>
>__________________________
>
>Women who love adventure:  Try adventure_wo at www.onelist.com.
>Let's share our resources!
>_________________________
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>

Hi Degasian,

Thank you for the little tanka--I like it.  Tanka is a new form for me and
I am working on several little ones right now.  I'll post them as soon as
they are done :)

Tess

At 05:38 PM 4/30/99 +0100, you wrote:
>From: "Degasian" <degasian@...>
>
>Hi Tess - you're right it sure is quiet - hope you like the little tanka
>
>Working in the study,
>Doors ajar letting in the cool breeze -
>Birdsong a welcome guest.
>
>There is peace no, where anger stood;
>We are nothing but breath on the wind.
>----------------------------------------------------------:) Degasian
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: wyethia@... <wyethia@...>
>To: Tanka@onelist.com <Tanka@onelist.com>
>Date: 27 April 1999 17:54
>Subject: [Tanka] hello
>
>
>>From: wyethia@...
>>
>>Anyone awake? :)
>>
>>Hi, my name is Tess.  I see that there are
>>a few people subbed to this list, but is
>>sure is quiet.  Anybody ready to begin?
>>
>>Tess
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Did you know that knowledge is power?
>>http://www.ONElist.com
>>Join a new ONElist e-mail community and strengthen your mind!
>>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Did you know that you can now set up a shared calendar to
>post events of interest to your community?
>http://www.onelist.com
>Check out our homepage for details.
>

__________________________

Women who love adventure:  Try adventure_wo at www.onelist.com.
Let's share our resources!
_________________________

Hi Tess - you're right it sure is quiet - hope you like the little tanka

Working in the study,
Doors ajar letting in the cool breeze -
Birdsong a welcome guest.

There is peace no, where anger stood;
We are nothing but breath on the wind.
----------------------------------------------------------:) Degasian



-----Original Message-----
From: wyethia@... <wyethia@...>
To: Tanka@onelist.com <Tanka@onelist.com>
Date: 27 April 1999 17:54
Subject: [Tanka] hello


>From: wyethia@...
>
>Anyone awake? :)
>
>Hi, my name is Tess.  I see that there are
>a few people subbed to this list, but is
>sure is quiet.  Anybody ready to begin?
>
>Tess
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Did you know that knowledge is power?
>http://www.ONElist.com
>Join a new ONElist e-mail community and strengthen your mind!
>

Anyone awake? :)

Hi, my name is Tess.  I see that there are
a few people subbed to this list, but is
sure is quiet.  Anybody ready to begin?

Tess