The 128th Pa were definitely green.  In fact, prior to Antietam,  they had very

little drilling,.  Mostly digging entrenchments around DC.



Paula

I agree...



Paula, maybe you can confirm their armament information for me?



--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, 128thpa@... wrote:

>

> The 128th Pa were definitely green.  In fact, prior to Antietam,  they had

very little drilling,.

Mostly digging entrenchments around DC.

>

> Paula

>

Dean,

Recruiting for the Seventeenth did started  in May 1862, but took the entire

summer to fill the ranks of each company. The companies from across the came

together in August and during the last week of the month were mustered in at the

Detroit Barracks.



I believe that there is one sentence in Michigan in the War that mentions

Pitman, and he may have been responsible for training (Gallahger's source?). The

colonel of the Regiment, William Withington, had been a captain in the First

Michigan Infantry (captured at First Manassas and not released until the summer

of 1862). A few of the other company officers had seen service during the first

year of the war.



Bill Christen



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bill,



Gallagher cites Ida V. Brown _Michigan in the Civil War_ as the source for the

drilling

information.



I take it you are arguing that they should fall into my "green" category (along

with the

other limited service time regiments)? I rather wish they had more service at

Antietam to

add to their good performance at South Mountain to make the evaluation clearer.



It's possible for me to set up their ratings to account for being both green

_and_

reasonably effective, but I have to be sure in any event. That would make for a

very

interesting looking unit.



Thank you for your interest!



Dean



--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bill and Glenna Jo Christen"

<gwjchris@...>

wrote:

>

>

> Dean,

> Recruiting for the Seventeenth did started  in May 1862, but took the entire

summer to

fill the ranks of each company. The companies from across the came together in

August

and during the last week of the month were mustered in at the Detroit Barracks.

>

> I believe that there is one sentence in Michigan in the War that mentions

Pitman, and he

may have been responsible for training (Gallahger's source?). The colonel of the

Regiment,

William Withington, had been a captain in the First Michigan Infantry (captured

at First

Manassas and not released until the summer of 1862). A few of the other company

officers

had seen service during the first year of the war.

>

> Bill Christen

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

Dean,



Looks like "green" may require your imposed definition. If you define

it as a regiment with a majority of men who have never been in

combat, then you have a good list already. But as you point out

then "green" could also then mean a regiment with a majority of men

who have been together for several months and have drilled, etc.,

then that is a different kettle of fish (fresh fish). This would

include most of the heavy artillery units around DC which turned into

excellent cannon fodder during the Overland Campaign.



IMO, "green" means a regiment which never has been in combat. But

arguably a green regiment having drilled together and perhaps had

marksmanship training would likely be much more effective than

a "green" one which had none of that. I suppose you could assign a

number from 1 to 10, 1 being brand new with no experience in anything

to 10 being a regiment which has been in combat several times. This

sounds like a great masters thesis topic.



Larry F.





--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...>

wrote:

>

> Bill,

>

> Gallagher cites Ida V. Brown _Michigan in the Civil War_ as the

source for the drilling

> information.

>

> I take it you are arguing that they should fall into my "green"

category (along with the

> other limited service time regiments)? I rather wish they had more

service at Antietam to

> add to their good performance at South Mountain to make the

evaluation clearer.

>

> It's possible for me to set up their ratings to account for being

both green _and_

> reasonably effective, but I have to be sure in any event. That

would make for a very

> interesting looking unit.

>

> Thank you for your interest!

>

> Dean

>

> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bill and Glenna Jo Christen"

<gwjchris@>

> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Dean,

> > Recruiting for the Seventeenth did started  in May 1862, but took

the entire summer to

> fill the ranks of each company. The companies from across the came

together in August

> and during the last week of the month were mustered in at the

Detroit Barracks.

> >

> > I believe that there is one sentence in Michigan in the War that

mentions Pitman, and he

> may have been responsible for training (Gallahger's source?). The

colonel of the Regiment,

> William Withington, had been a captain in the First Michigan

Infantry (captured at First

> Manassas and not released until the summer of 1862). A few of the

other company officers

> had seen service during the first year of the war.

> >

> > Bill Christen

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

>

Hey Larry!



While an extensive rating system would be very interesting to see, such a thing

goes well

beyond my needs here.



I'm concerned about units that have not gotten enough time on the drill field to

obtain

even the minimal proficiency an otherwise green (no combat) unit would be

expected to

have.



This status will affect the unit in a number of ways, but in a nutshell it makes

the

formation more sluggish and unwieldy as well as reducing its ability to generate

firepower.

There might be more effects (skittishness and such), but testing will allow me

to get to the

point where I can tell when there is "enough" as opposed to "too much" or "not

enough"

effect (some of these units acquitted themselves well, they were just clumsy).



So, the definition revolves around drill and training as opposed to the previous

experience

of combat.



Dean



--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>

wrote:

>

> Dean,

>

> Looks like "green" may require your imposed definition. If you define

> it as a regiment with a majority of men who have never been in

> combat, then you have a good list already. But as you point out

> then "green" could also then mean a regiment with a majority of men

> who have been together for several months and have drilled, etc.,

> then that is a different kettle of fish (fresh fish). This would

> include most of the heavy artillery units around DC which turned into

> excellent cannon fodder during the Overland Campaign.

>

> IMO, "green" means a regiment which never has been in combat. But

> arguably a green regiment having drilled together and perhaps had

> marksmanship training would likely be much more effective than

> a "green" one which had none of that. I suppose you could assign a

> number from 1 to 10, 1 being brand new with no experience in anything

> to 10 being a regiment which has been in combat several times. This

> sounds like a great masters thesis topic.

>

> Larry F.

Dean,



OK, so it sounds like the ultimate definition of "green" is how much

you can find out about its previous drill/training. But isn't the

ultimate test of how well a green unit does is how it did during the

battle? Of course leadership/morale/food/weather/etc., all figure

into how a unit does for the first time under fire too.



Anyway, learning how much training a green unit had before the battle

is quite a challenge. I remember reading that some new units trained

on the march or in camp during the night--see my Conn. paper on MHO.

But that wouldn't compare to those units which spent weeks/months

drilling, etc.



Good luck in your endeavor and I look forward to seeing the game.



Larry F.



--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...>

wrote:

>

> Hey Larry!

>

> While an extensive rating system would be very interesting to see,

such a thing goes well

> beyond my needs here.

>

> I'm concerned about units that have not gotten enough time on the

drill field to obtain

> even the minimal proficiency an otherwise green (no combat) unit

would be expected to

> have.

>

> This status will affect the unit in a number of ways, but in a

nutshell it makes the

> formation more sluggish and unwieldy as well as reducing its

ability to generate firepower.

> There might be more effects (skittishness and such), but testing

will allow me to get to the

> point where I can tell when there is "enough" as opposed to "too

much" or "not enough"

> effect (some of these units acquitted themselves well, they were

just clumsy).

>

> So, the definition revolves around drill and training as opposed to

the previous experience

> of combat.

>

> Dean

>

> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"

<eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:

> >

> > Dean,

> >

> > Looks like "green" may require your imposed definition. If you

define

> > it as a regiment with a majority of men who have never been in

> > combat, then you have a good list already. But as you point out

> > then "green" could also then mean a regiment with a majority of

men

> > who have been together for several months and have drilled, etc.,

> > then that is a different kettle of fish (fresh fish). This would

> > include most of the heavy artillery units around DC which turned

into

> > excellent cannon fodder during the Overland Campaign.

> >

> > IMO, "green" means a regiment which never has been in combat. But

> > arguably a green regiment having drilled together and perhaps had

> > marksmanship training would likely be much more effective than

> > a "green" one which had none of that. I suppose you could assign

a

> > number from 1 to 10, 1 being brand new with no experience in

anything

> > to 10 being a regiment which has been in combat several times.

This

> > sounds like a great masters thesis topic.

> >

> > Larry F.

>

Larry,



True. In the game that shows up as a separate index ("morale") which looks at

dependability, steadfastness and so on. "Green" identifies those who "just don't

know

how". Having them separate allows me to show that some potentially very fine

units (good

leadership, brave men, good coherence) who at this point "just don't know how"

as being

something different from an outfit that is just undependable, poorly led, or

"prone to

voting with its feet".



Thanks for so much support. I want to make this product something that does

justice to

what these men did that day and brings out all the new scholarship on Antietam

since

Murfin. I hope it can give some new insights.



Dean



--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>

wrote:

>

> Dean,

>

> OK, so it sounds like the ultimate definition of "green" is how much

> you can find out about its previous drill/training. But isn't the

> ultimate test of how well a green unit does is how it did during the

> battle? Of course leadership/morale/food/weather/etc., all figure

> into how a unit does for the first time under fire too.

Unfortunately, I haven't gotten that far in my research on them to answer that

question.  I just can confirm that they had very little drilling from letters

and reports.  Though their Colonel, Samuel Croasdale had been in the 25th Pa, so

he had some experience, which is why he got the job of Colonel.  He primarily

raised Co C of the regiment, most men coming from the Doylestown area.



Paula



-------------- Original message --------------

From: "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...>

I agree...



Paula, maybe you can confirm their armament information for me?



--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, 128thpa@... wrote:

>

> The 128th Pa were definitely green. In fact, prior to Antietam, they had very

little drilling,.

Mostly digging entrenchments around DC.

>

> Paula

>









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Paula,



Company F also has a Doylestown connection. The captain of that

company, and one of the Sergeants, were brothers.



Yr. Obt. Svt.

G E "Gerry" Mayers



To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even

on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the

Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from

the Almighty God. --Anonymous

----- Original Message -----

From: <128thpa@...>

To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 5:23 PM

Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates





> Unfortunately, I haven't gotten that far in my research on them

> to answer that question.  I just can confirm that they had very

> little drilling from letters and reports.  Though their

> Colonel, Samuel Croasdale had been in the 25th Pa, so he had

> some experience, which is why he got the job of Colonel.  He

> primarily raised Co C of the regiment, most men coming from the

> Doylestown area.

>

> Paula

>

> -------------- Original message --------------

> From: "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...>

> I agree...

>

> Paula, maybe you can confirm their armament information for me?

>

> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, 128thpa@... wrote:

>>

>> The 128th Pa were definitely green. In fact, prior to

>> Antietam, they had very little drilling,.

> Mostly digging entrenchments around DC.

>>

>> Paula

>>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

Gerry:



Christian Frankenfield was the Capt of Co F, most of those men were from the

Bucks Co area, not necessarily Doylestown - I have been in touch with his

descendents and gave a talk on the 128th at a Frankenfield Family Reunion. 

IIRC, the other Frankenfield was a cousin(but I have to check my notes on that).

Christian was certainly marked by the battle, he named his first son Thomas

Antietam Frankenfield.



Paula



-------------- Original message --------------

From: "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>

Dear Paula,



Company F also has a Doylestown connection. The captain of that

company, and one of the Sergeants, were brothers.



Yr. Obt. Svt.

G E "Gerry" Mayers



To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even

on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the

Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from

the Almighty God. --Anonymous

----- Original Message -----

From: <128thpa@...>

To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 5:23 PM

Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



> Unfortunately, I haven't gotten that far in my research on them

> to answer that question. I just can confirm that they had very

> little drilling from letters and reports. Though their

> Colonel, Samuel Croasdale had been in the 25th Pa, so he had

> some experience, which is why he got the job of Colonel. He

> primarily raised Co C of the regiment, most men coming from the

> Doylestown area.

>

> Paula

>

> -------------- Original message --------------

> From: "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...>

> I agree...

>

> Paula, maybe you can confirm their armament information for me?

>

> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, 128thpa@... wrote:

>>

>> The 128th Pa were definitely green. In fact, prior to

>> Antietam, they had very little drilling,.

> Mostly digging entrenchments around DC.

>>

>> Paula

>>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carman rates the infantry within these levels: Green, Trained, Veteran, Crack,

Elite.



For instance, here is Union 9th Corps:



NINTH ARMY CORPS Maj Gen. A. E. BURNSIDE

FIRST DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ORLANDO B. WILLCOX



First Brigade: Col. BENJAMIN C. CHRIST

28th Massachusetts, Capt. Andrew P. Caraher: 217 Trained troops

17th Michigan, Col. William H. Withington: 525 Green troops

79th New York, Lieut. Col. David Morrison: 193 Trained troops

50th Pennsylvania, Maj. Edward Overton: 370 Trained troops





Second Brigade: Col. THOMAS WELSH

8th Michigan, Lieut. Col. Frank Graves: 435 Trained troops

46th New York, Lieut. Col. Joseph Gerhardt: 278 Trained troops

45th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. John I. Curtin: 560 Trained troops

100th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. David A. Leckey: 356 Trained troops





Artillery.

Massachusetts Light, Eighth Battery, Capt. Asa M. Cook: 6 mixed guns, 117

Trained troops

2d United States, Battery E, Lieut. Samuel N. Benjmin: 6 20-lb Parrotts, 129

Crack troops





SECOND DIVISION: Brig. Gen. SAMUEL D. STURGIS



First Brigade: Brig. Gen. JAMES NAGLE

2d Maryland, Lieut. Col. J. Eugene Duryea: 167 Trained troops

6th New Hampshire, Col. Simon G. Griffin: 157 Trained troops

9th New Hampshire, Col. Enoch Q. Fellows: 710 Green troops

48th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. Joshua K. Sigfried: 390 Trained troops





Second Brigade: Brig. Gen. EDWARD FERRERO

21st Massachusetts, Col. William S. Clark: 158 Trained troops

35th Massachusetts, Col. Edward A. Wild: 750 Green troops

51st New York, Col. Robert B. Potter: 338 Trained troops

51st Pennsylvania, Col. John F. Hartranft: 333 Trained troops





Artillery.

Pennsylvania Light, Battery D, Capt. George W. Durell: 6 10-lb Parrotts, 123

Crack troops

4th United States, Battery E, Capt. Joseph C. Clark, jr: 4 10-lb Parrotts, 118

Crack troops





THIRD DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ISAAC P. RODMAN



First Brigade: Col. HARRISON S. FAIRCHILD

9th New York, Lieut. Col. Edgar A. Kimball: 375 Crack troops

89th New York, Maj Edward Jardine: 368 Trained troops

103d New York, Maj Benjamin Ringold: 202 Trained troops





Second Brigade: Col. EDWARD HARLAND

8th Connecticut, Lieut. Col. Hiram Appelman: 375 Trained troops

11th Connecticut, Col. Henry W. Kingsbury: 430 Green troops

16th Connecticut, Col. Francis Beach: 739 Green troops

4th Rhode Island, Col. William H. P. Steere: 247 Trained troops





Artillery.

5th United States, Battery A, Lieut. Charles P. Muhlenberg: 6 Napoleons, 123

Crack troops





KANAWHA (4th) DIVISION: Col. ELIAKIM P. SCAMMON



First Brigade: Col. HUGH EWING

12th Ohio, Col. Carr B. White: 200 Veteran troops

23d Ohio, Maj. James M. Comly: 360 Veteran troops

30th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Theodore Jones: 342 Veteran troops





Second Brigade: Col. GEORGE CROOK

11th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Augustus H, Coleman: 430 Trained troops

28th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Gottfried Becker: 719 Green troops

36th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Melvin Clarke: 739 Green Trained troops





Artillery.

Ohio Light Artillery, First Battery, Capt. James R. McMullin: 6 10-lb James, 129

Veteran troops

Kentucky Lt Artillery, Simmonds' Bty, Capt. S. Simmonds: 3 10-lb Parrotts, 98

Veteran troops

2nd New York Light, Battery L, Capt. Jacob Roemer: 6 Ordnance, 98 Green troops



Tom Shay - Cressona, PA





   ----- Original Message -----

   From: eighth_conn_inf

   To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

   Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:36 AM

   Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates





   Dean,



   Looks like "green" may require your imposed definition. If you define

   it as a regiment with a majority of men who have never been in

   combat, then you have a good list already. But as you point out

   then "green" could also then mean a regiment with a majority of men

   who have been together for several months and have drilled, etc.,

   then that is a different kettle of fish (fresh fish). This would

   include most of the heavy artillery units around DC which turned into

   excellent cannon fodder during the Overland Campaign.



   IMO, "green" means a regiment which never has been in combat. But

   arguably a green regiment having drilled together and perhaps had

   marksmanship training would likely be much more effective than

   a "green" one which had none of that. I suppose you could assign a

   number from 1 to 10, 1 being brand new with no experience in anything

   to 10 being a regiment which has been in combat several times. This

   sounds like a great masters thesis topic.



   Larry F.

   Recent Activity

     a..  2New Members

   Visit Your Group

   Only on Yahoo!

   Star Wars galaxy



   Create a profile



   and meet fans.



   Yahoo! News

   Kevin Sites



   Get coverage of



   world crises.



   Moderator Central

   Get answers to



   your questions about



   running Y! Groups.

   .





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Holy Cow, Tom!



Now I really can't wait for Jake's version of the book to come out.





--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...> wrote:

>

> Carman rates the infantry within these levels: Green, Trained, Veteran, Crack,

Elite.

>

> For instance, here is Union 9th Corps:

>

> NINTH ARMY CORPS Maj Gen. A. E. BURNSIDE

> FIRST DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ORLANDO B. WILLCOX

>

> First Brigade: Col. BENJAMIN C. CHRIST

> 28th Massachusetts, Capt. Andrew P. Caraher: 217 Trained troops

> 17th Michigan, Col. William H. Withington: 525 Green troops

> 79th New York, Lieut. Col. David Morrison: 193 Trained troops

> 50th Pennsylvania, Maj. Edward Overton: 370 Trained troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. THOMAS WELSH

> 8th Michigan, Lieut. Col. Frank Graves: 435 Trained troops

> 46th New York, Lieut. Col. Joseph Gerhardt: 278 Trained troops

> 45th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. John I. Curtin: 560 Trained troops

> 100th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. David A. Leckey: 356 Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> Massachusetts Light, Eighth Battery, Capt. Asa M. Cook: 6 mixed guns, 117

Trained

troops

> 2d United States, Battery E, Lieut. Samuel N. Benjmin: 6 20-lb Parrotts, 129

Crack troops

>

>

> SECOND DIVISION: Brig. Gen. SAMUEL D. STURGIS

>

> First Brigade: Brig. Gen. JAMES NAGLE

> 2d Maryland, Lieut. Col. J. Eugene Duryea: 167 Trained troops

> 6th New Hampshire, Col. Simon G. Griffin: 157 Trained troops

> 9th New Hampshire, Col. Enoch Q. Fellows: 710 Green troops

> 48th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. Joshua K. Sigfried: 390 Trained troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Brig. Gen. EDWARD FERRERO

> 21st Massachusetts, Col. William S. Clark: 158 Trained troops

> 35th Massachusetts, Col. Edward A. Wild: 750 Green troops

> 51st New York, Col. Robert B. Potter: 338 Trained troops

> 51st Pennsylvania, Col. John F. Hartranft: 333 Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> Pennsylvania Light, Battery D, Capt. George W. Durell: 6 10-lb Parrotts, 123

Crack

troops

> 4th United States, Battery E, Capt. Joseph C. Clark, jr: 4 10-lb Parrotts, 118

Crack troops

>

>

> THIRD DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ISAAC P. RODMAN

>

> First Brigade: Col. HARRISON S. FAIRCHILD

> 9th New York, Lieut. Col. Edgar A. Kimball: 375 Crack troops

> 89th New York, Maj Edward Jardine: 368 Trained troops

> 103d New York, Maj Benjamin Ringold: 202 Trained troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. EDWARD HARLAND

> 8th Connecticut, Lieut. Col. Hiram Appelman: 375 Trained troops

> 11th Connecticut, Col. Henry W. Kingsbury: 430 Green troops

> 16th Connecticut, Col. Francis Beach: 739 Green troops

> 4th Rhode Island, Col. William H. P. Steere: 247 Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> 5th United States, Battery A, Lieut. Charles P. Muhlenberg: 6 Napoleons, 123

Crack

troops

>

>

> KANAWHA (4th) DIVISION: Col. ELIAKIM P. SCAMMON

>

> First Brigade: Col. HUGH EWING

> 12th Ohio, Col. Carr B. White: 200 Veteran troops

> 23d Ohio, Maj. James M. Comly: 360 Veteran troops

> 30th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Theodore Jones: 342 Veteran troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. GEORGE CROOK

> 11th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Augustus H, Coleman: 430 Trained troops

> 28th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Gottfried Becker: 719 Green troops

> 36th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Melvin Clarke: 739 Green Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> Ohio Light Artillery, First Battery, Capt. James R. McMullin: 6 10-lb James,

129 Veteran

troops

> Kentucky Lt Artillery, Simmonds' Bty, Capt. S. Simmonds: 3 10-lb Parrotts, 98

Veteran

troops

> 2nd New York Light, Battery L, Capt. Jacob Roemer: 6 Ordnance, 98 Green troops

>

> Tom Shay - Cressona, PA

>

>

>   ----- Original Message -----

>   From: eighth_conn_inf

>   To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

>   Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:36 AM

>   Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

>

>   Dean,

>

>   Looks like "green" may require your imposed definition. If you define

>   it as a regiment with a majority of men who have never been in

>   combat, then you have a good list already. But as you point out

>   then "green" could also then mean a regiment with a majority of men

>   who have been together for several months and have drilled, etc.,

>   then that is a different kettle of fish (fresh fish). This would

>   include most of the heavy artillery units around DC which turned into

>   excellent cannon fodder during the Overland Campaign.

>

>   IMO, "green" means a regiment which never has been in combat. But

>   arguably a green regiment having drilled together and perhaps had

>   marksmanship training would likely be much more effective than

>   a "green" one which had none of that. I suppose you could assign a

>   number from 1 to 10, 1 being brand new with no experience in anything

>   to 10 being a regiment which has been in combat several times. This

>   sounds like a great masters thesis topic.

>

>   Larry F.

>   Recent Activity

>     a..  2New Members

>   Visit Your Group

>   Only on Yahoo!

>   Star Wars galaxy

>

>   Create a profile

>

>   and meet fans.

>

>   Yahoo! News

>   Kevin Sites

>

>   Get coverage of

>

>   world crises.

>

>   Moderator Central

>   Get answers to

>

>   your questions about

>

>   running Y! Groups.

>   .

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

Tom,



What does the game have for ratings for cavalry units, Union and

Confederate?



Thank you,



Larry F.



--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...>

wrote:

>

> Carman rates the infantry within these levels: Green, Trained,

Veteran, Crack, Elite.

>

> For instance, here is Union 9th Corps:

>

> NINTH ARMY CORPS Maj Gen. A. E. BURNSIDE

> FIRST DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ORLANDO B. WILLCOX

>

> First Brigade: Col. BENJAMIN C. CHRIST

> 28th Massachusetts, Capt. Andrew P. Caraher: 217 Trained troops

> 17th Michigan, Col. William H. Withington: 525 Green troops

> 79th New York, Lieut. Col. David Morrison: 193 Trained troops

> 50th Pennsylvania, Maj. Edward Overton: 370 Trained troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. THOMAS WELSH

> 8th Michigan, Lieut. Col. Frank Graves: 435 Trained troops

> 46th New York, Lieut. Col. Joseph Gerhardt: 278 Trained troops

> 45th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. John I. Curtin: 560 Trained troops

> 100th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. David A. Leckey: 356 Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> Massachusetts Light, Eighth Battery, Capt. Asa M. Cook: 6 mixed

guns, 117 Trained troops

> 2d United States, Battery E, Lieut. Samuel N. Benjmin: 6 20-lb

Parrotts, 129 Crack troops

>

>

> SECOND DIVISION: Brig. Gen. SAMUEL D. STURGIS

>

> First Brigade: Brig. Gen. JAMES NAGLE

> 2d Maryland, Lieut. Col. J. Eugene Duryea: 167 Trained troops

> 6th New Hampshire, Col. Simon G. Griffin: 157 Trained troops

> 9th New Hampshire, Col. Enoch Q. Fellows: 710 Green troops

> 48th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. Joshua K. Sigfried: 390 Trained

troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Brig. Gen. EDWARD FERRERO

> 21st Massachusetts, Col. William S. Clark: 158 Trained troops

> 35th Massachusetts, Col. Edward A. Wild: 750 Green troops

> 51st New York, Col. Robert B. Potter: 338 Trained troops

> 51st Pennsylvania, Col. John F. Hartranft: 333 Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> Pennsylvania Light, Battery D, Capt. George W. Durell: 6 10-lb

Parrotts, 123 Crack troops

> 4th United States, Battery E, Capt. Joseph C. Clark, jr: 4 10-lb

Parrotts, 118 Crack troops

>

>

> THIRD DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ISAAC P. RODMAN

>

> First Brigade: Col. HARRISON S. FAIRCHILD

> 9th New York, Lieut. Col. Edgar A. Kimball: 375 Crack troops

> 89th New York, Maj Edward Jardine: 368 Trained troops

> 103d New York, Maj Benjamin Ringold: 202 Trained troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. EDWARD HARLAND

> 8th Connecticut, Lieut. Col. Hiram Appelman: 375 Trained troops

> 11th Connecticut, Col. Henry W. Kingsbury: 430 Green troops

> 16th Connecticut, Col. Francis Beach: 739 Green troops

> 4th Rhode Island, Col. William H. P. Steere: 247 Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> 5th United States, Battery A, Lieut. Charles P. Muhlenberg: 6

Napoleons, 123 Crack troops

>

>

> KANAWHA (4th) DIVISION: Col. ELIAKIM P. SCAMMON

>

> First Brigade: Col. HUGH EWING

> 12th Ohio, Col. Carr B. White: 200 Veteran troops

> 23d Ohio, Maj. James M. Comly: 360 Veteran troops

> 30th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Theodore Jones: 342 Veteran troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. GEORGE CROOK

> 11th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Augustus H, Coleman: 430 Trained troops

> 28th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Gottfried Becker: 719 Green troops

> 36th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Melvin Clarke: 739 Green Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> Ohio Light Artillery, First Battery, Capt. James R. McMullin: 6 10-

lb James, 129 Veteran troops

> Kentucky Lt Artillery, Simmonds' Bty, Capt. S. Simmonds: 3 10-lb

Parrotts, 98 Veteran troops

> 2nd New York Light, Battery L, Capt. Jacob Roemer: 6 Ordnance, 98

Green troops

>

> Tom Shay - Cressona, PA

>

>

>   ----- Original Message -----

>   From: eighth_conn_inf

>   To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

>   Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:36 AM

>   Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

>

>   Dean,

>

>   Looks like "green" may require your imposed definition. If you

define

>   it as a regiment with a majority of men who have never been in

>   combat, then you have a good list already. But as you point out

>   then "green" could also then mean a regiment with a majority of

men

>   who have been together for several months and have drilled, etc.,

>   then that is a different kettle of fish (fresh fish). This would

>   include most of the heavy artillery units around DC which turned

into

>   excellent cannon fodder during the Overland Campaign.

>

>   IMO, "green" means a regiment which never has been in combat. But

>   arguably a green regiment having drilled together and perhaps had

>   marksmanship training would likely be much more effective than

>   a "green" one which had none of that. I suppose you could assign

a

>   number from 1 to 10, 1 being brand new with no experience in

anything

>   to 10 being a regiment which has been in combat several times.

This

>   sounds like a great masters thesis topic.

>

>   Larry F.

>   Recent Activity

>     a..  2New Members

>   Visit Your Group

>   Only on Yahoo!

>   Star Wars galaxy

>

>   Create a profile

>

>   and meet fans.

>

>   Yahoo! News

>   Kevin Sites

>

>   Get coverage of

>

>   world crises.

>

>   Moderator Central

>   Get answers to

>

>   your questions about

>

>   running Y! Groups.

>   .

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

Aside from Carman's categories for Green and Trained and

obviously Veteran, what were his qualifying points for Crack and

Elite?



Yr. Obt. Svt.

G E "Gerry" Mayers



To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even

on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the

Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from

the Almighty God. --Anonymous

----- Original Message -----

From: "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...>

To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 10:47 PM

Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates





> Carman rates the infantry within these levels: Green, Trained,

> Veteran, Crack, Elite.

>

> For instance, here is Union 9th Corps:

>

> NINTH ARMY CORPS Maj Gen. A. E. BURNSIDE

> FIRST DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ORLANDO B. WILLCOX

>

> First Brigade: Col. BENJAMIN C. CHRIST

> 28th Massachusetts, Capt. Andrew P. Caraher: 217 Trained troops

> 17th Michigan, Col. William H. Withington: 525 Green troops

> 79th New York, Lieut. Col. David Morrison: 193 Trained troops

> 50th Pennsylvania, Maj. Edward Overton: 370 Trained troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. THOMAS WELSH

> 8th Michigan, Lieut. Col. Frank Graves: 435 Trained troops

> 46th New York, Lieut. Col. Joseph Gerhardt: 278 Trained troops

> 45th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. John I. Curtin: 560 Trained

> troops

> 100th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. David A. Leckey: 356 Trained

> troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> Massachusetts Light, Eighth Battery, Capt. Asa M. Cook: 6 mixed

> guns, 117 Trained troops

> 2d United States, Battery E, Lieut. Samuel N. Benjmin: 6 20-lb

> Parrotts, 129 Crack troops

>

>

> SECOND DIVISION: Brig. Gen. SAMUEL D. STURGIS

>

> First Brigade: Brig. Gen. JAMES NAGLE

> 2d Maryland, Lieut. Col. J. Eugene Duryea: 167 Trained troops

> 6th New Hampshire, Col. Simon G. Griffin: 157 Trained troops

> 9th New Hampshire, Col. Enoch Q. Fellows: 710 Green troops

> 48th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. Joshua K. Sigfried: 390 Trained

> troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Brig. Gen. EDWARD FERRERO

> 21st Massachusetts, Col. William S. Clark: 158 Trained troops

> 35th Massachusetts, Col. Edward A. Wild: 750 Green troops

> 51st New York, Col. Robert B. Potter: 338 Trained troops

> 51st Pennsylvania, Col. John F. Hartranft: 333 Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> Pennsylvania Light, Battery D, Capt. George W. Durell: 6 10-lb

> Parrotts, 123 Crack troops

> 4th United States, Battery E, Capt. Joseph C. Clark, jr: 4

> 10-lb Parrotts, 118 Crack troops

>

>

> THIRD DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ISAAC P. RODMAN

>

> First Brigade: Col. HARRISON S. FAIRCHILD

> 9th New York, Lieut. Col. Edgar A. Kimball: 375 Crack troops

> 89th New York, Maj Edward Jardine: 368 Trained troops

> 103d New York, Maj Benjamin Ringold: 202 Trained troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. EDWARD HARLAND

> 8th Connecticut, Lieut. Col. Hiram Appelman: 375 Trained troops

> 11th Connecticut, Col. Henry W. Kingsbury: 430 Green troops

> 16th Connecticut, Col. Francis Beach: 739 Green troops

> 4th Rhode Island, Col. William H. P. Steere: 247 Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> 5th United States, Battery A, Lieut. Charles P. Muhlenberg: 6

> Napoleons, 123 Crack troops

>

>

> KANAWHA (4th) DIVISION: Col. ELIAKIM P. SCAMMON

>

> First Brigade: Col. HUGH EWING

> 12th Ohio, Col. Carr B. White: 200 Veteran troops

> 23d Ohio, Maj. James M. Comly: 360 Veteran troops

> 30th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Theodore Jones: 342 Veteran troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. GEORGE CROOK

> 11th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Augustus H, Coleman: 430 Trained troops

> 28th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Gottfried Becker: 719 Green troops

> 36th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Melvin Clarke: 739 Green Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> Ohio Light Artillery, First Battery, Capt. James R. McMullin: 6

> 10-lb James, 129 Veteran troops

> Kentucky Lt Artillery, Simmonds' Bty, Capt. S. Simmonds: 3

> 10-lb Parrotts, 98 Veteran troops

> 2nd New York Light, Battery L, Capt. Jacob Roemer: 6 Ordnance,

> 98 Green troops

>

> Tom Shay - Cressona, PA

>

>

>  ----- Original Message -----

>  From: eighth_conn_inf

>  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

>  Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:36 AM

>  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

>

>  Dean,

>

>  Looks like "green" may require your imposed definition. If you

> define

>  it as a regiment with a majority of men who have never been in

>  combat, then you have a good list already. But as you point

> out

>  then "green" could also then mean a regiment with a majority

> of men

>  who have been together for several months and have drilled,

> etc.,

>  then that is a different kettle of fish (fresh fish). This

> would

>  include most of the heavy artillery units around DC which

> turned into

>  excellent cannon fodder during the Overland Campaign.

>

>  IMO, "green" means a regiment which never has been in combat.

> But

>  arguably a green regiment having drilled together and perhaps

> had

>  marksmanship training would likely be much more effective than

>  a "green" one which had none of that. I suppose you could

> assign a

>  number from 1 to 10, 1 being brand new with no experience in

> anything

>  to 10 being a regiment which has been in combat several times.

> This

>  sounds like a great masters thesis topic.

>

>  Larry F.

>  Recent Activity

>    a..  2New Members

>  Visit Your Group

>  Only on Yahoo!

>  Star Wars galaxy

>

>  Create a profile

>

>  and meet fans.

>

>  Yahoo! News

>  Kevin Sites

>

>  Get coverage of

>

>  world crises.

>

>  Moderator Central

>  Get answers to

>

>  your questions about

>

>  running Y! Groups.

>  .

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

I don't recall him describing the categories, but Iron Brigade is an example of

Elite.



Tom Shay





   ----- Original Message -----

   From: G E Mayers

   To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

   Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:14 PM

   Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates





   Aside from Carman's categories for Green and Trained and

   obviously Veteran, what were his qualifying points for Crack and

   Elite?



   Yr. Obt. Svt.

   G E "Gerry" Mayers



   To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even

   on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the

   Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from

   the Almighty God. --Anonymous

   ----- Original Message -----

   From: "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...>

   To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>

   Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 10:47 PM

   Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



   > Carman rates the infantry within these levels: Green, Trained,

   > Veteran, Crack, Elite.

   >

   > For instance, here is Union 9th Corps:

   >

   > NINTH ARMY CORPS Maj Gen. A. E. BURNSIDE

   > FIRST DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ORLANDO B. WILLCOX

   >

   > First Brigade: Col. BENJAMIN C. CHRIST

   > 28th Massachusetts, Capt. Andrew P. Caraher: 217 Trained troops

   > 17th Michigan, Col. William H. Withington: 525 Green troops

   > 79th New York, Lieut. Col. David Morrison: 193 Trained troops

   > 50th Pennsylvania, Maj. Edward Overton: 370 Trained troops

   >

   >

   > Second Brigade: Col. THOMAS WELSH

   > 8th Michigan, Lieut. Col. Frank Graves: 435 Trained troops

   > 46th New York, Lieut. Col. Joseph Gerhardt: 278 Trained troops

   > 45th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. John I. Curtin: 560 Trained

   > troops

   > 100th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. David A. Leckey: 356 Trained

   > troops

   >

   >

   > Artillery.

   > Massachusetts Light, Eighth Battery, Capt. Asa M. Cook: 6 mixed

   > guns, 117 Trained troops

   > 2d United States, Battery E, Lieut. Samuel N. Benjmin: 6 20-lb

   > Parrotts, 129 Crack troops

   >

   >

   > SECOND DIVISION: Brig. Gen. SAMUEL D. STURGIS

   >

   > First Brigade: Brig. Gen. JAMES NAGLE

   > 2d Maryland, Lieut. Col. J. Eugene Duryea: 167 Trained troops

   > 6th New Hampshire, Col. Simon G. Griffin: 157 Trained troops

   > 9th New Hampshire, Col. Enoch Q. Fellows: 710 Green troops

   > 48th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. Joshua K. Sigfried: 390 Trained

   > troops

   >

   >

   > Second Brigade: Brig. Gen. EDWARD FERRERO

   > 21st Massachusetts, Col. William S. Clark: 158 Trained troops

   > 35th Massachusetts, Col. Edward A. Wild: 750 Green troops

   > 51st New York, Col. Robert B. Potter: 338 Trained troops

   > 51st Pennsylvania, Col. John F. Hartranft: 333 Trained troops

   >

   >

   > Artillery.

   > Pennsylvania Light, Battery D, Capt. George W. Durell: 6 10-lb

   > Parrotts, 123 Crack troops

   > 4th United States, Battery E, Capt. Joseph C. Clark, jr: 4

   > 10-lb Parrotts, 118 Crack troops

   >

   >

   > THIRD DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ISAAC P. RODMAN

   >

   > First Brigade: Col. HARRISON S. FAIRCHILD

   > 9th New York, Lieut. Col. Edgar A. Kimball: 375 Crack troops

   > 89th New York, Maj Edward Jardine: 368 Trained troops

   > 103d New York, Maj Benjamin Ringold: 202 Trained troops

   >

   >

   > Second Brigade: Col. EDWARD HARLAND

   > 8th Connecticut, Lieut. Col. Hiram Appelman: 375 Trained troops

   > 11th Connecticut, Col. Henry W. Kingsbury: 430 Green troops

   > 16th Connecticut, Col. Francis Beach: 739 Green troops

   > 4th Rhode Island, Col. William H. P. Steere: 247 Trained troops

   >

   >

   > Artillery.

   > 5th United States, Battery A, Lieut. Charles P. Muhlenberg: 6

   > Napoleons, 123 Crack troops

   >

   >

   > KANAWHA (4th) DIVISION: Col. ELIAKIM P. SCAMMON

   >

   > First Brigade: Col. HUGH EWING

   > 12th Ohio, Col. Carr B. White: 200 Veteran troops

   > 23d Ohio, Maj. James M. Comly: 360 Veteran troops

   > 30th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Theodore Jones: 342 Veteran troops

   >

   >

   > Second Brigade: Col. GEORGE CROOK

   > 11th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Augustus H, Coleman: 430 Trained troops

   > 28th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Gottfried Becker: 719 Green troops

   > 36th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Melvin Clarke: 739 Green Trained troops

   >

   >

   > Artillery.

   > Ohio Light Artillery, First Battery, Capt. James R. McMullin: 6

   > 10-lb James, 129 Veteran troops

   > Kentucky Lt Artillery, Simmonds' Bty, Capt. S. Simmonds: 3

   > 10-lb Parrotts, 98 Veteran troops

   > 2nd New York Light, Battery L, Capt. Jacob Roemer: 6 Ordnance,

   > 98 Green troops

   >

   > Tom Shay - Cressona, PA

   >

   >

   > ----- Original Message -----

   > From: eighth_conn_inf

   > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

   > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:36 AM

   > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

   >

   >

   > Dean,

   >

   > Looks like "green" may require your imposed definition. If you

   > define

   > it as a regiment with a majority of men who have never been in

   > combat, then you have a good list already. But as you point

   > out

   > then "green" could also then mean a regiment with a majority

   > of men

   > who have been together for several months and have drilled,

   > etc.,

   > then that is a different kettle of fish (fresh fish). This

   > would

   > include most of the heavy artillery units around DC which

   > turned into

   > excellent cannon fodder during the Overland Campaign.

   >

   > IMO, "green" means a regiment which never has been in combat.

   > But

   > arguably a green regiment having drilled together and perhaps

   > had

   > marksmanship training would likely be much more effective than

   > a "green" one which had none of that. I suppose you could

   > assign a

   > number from 1 to 10, 1 being brand new with no experience in

   > anything

   > to 10 being a regiment which has been in combat several times.

   > This

   > sounds like a great masters thesis topic.

   >

   > Larry F.

   > Recent Activity

   > a.. 2New Members

   > Visit Your Group

   > Only on Yahoo!

   > Star Wars galaxy

   >

   > Create a profile

   >

   > and meet fans.

   >

   > Yahoo! News

   > Kevin Sites

   >

   > Get coverage of

   >

   > world crises.

   >

   > Moderator Central

   > Get answers to

   >

   > your questions about

   >

   > running Y! Groups.

   > .

   >

   >

   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   >

   >











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom, I'm confused. What is your source for Carman's "classifications," as you

list them?



I don't recall him ever breaking down regiments into formal categories of

readiness in the manner in which you provided them.



--jake





----- Original Message ----

From: RoteBaron <RoteBaron@...>

To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 1, 2008 11:18:43 PM

Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



I don't recall him describing the categories, but Iron Brigade is an example of

Elite.



Tom Shay



----- Original Message -----

From: G E Mayers

To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:14 PM

Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



Aside from Carman's categories for Green and Trained and

obviously Veteran, what were his qualifying points for Crack and

Elite?



Yr. Obt. Svt.

G E "Gerry" Mayers



To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even

on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the

Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from

the Almighty God. --Anonymous

----- Original Message -----

From: "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@comcast. net>

To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 10:47 PM

Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



> Carman rates the infantry within these levels: Green, Trained,

> Veteran, Crack, Elite.

>

> For instance, here is Union 9th Corps:

>

> NINTH ARMY CORPS Maj Gen. A. E. BURNSIDE

> FIRST DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ORLANDO B. WILLCOX

>

> First Brigade: Col. BENJAMIN C. CHRIST

> 28th Massachusetts, Capt. Andrew P. Caraher: 217 Trained troops

> 17th Michigan, Col. William H. Withington: 525 Green troops

> 79th New York, Lieut. Col. David Morrison: 193 Trained troops

> 50th Pennsylvania, Maj. Edward Overton: 370 Trained troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. THOMAS WELSH

> 8th Michigan, Lieut. Col. Frank Graves: 435 Trained troops

> 46th New York, Lieut. Col. Joseph Gerhardt: 278 Trained troops

> 45th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. John I. Curtin: 560 Trained

> troops

> 100th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. David A. Leckey: 356 Trained

> troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> Massachusetts Light, Eighth Battery, Capt. Asa M. Cook: 6 mixed

> guns, 117 Trained troops

> 2d United States, Battery E, Lieut. Samuel N. Benjmin: 6 20-lb

> Parrotts, 129 Crack troops

>

>

> SECOND DIVISION: Brig. Gen. SAMUEL D. STURGIS

>

> First Brigade: Brig. Gen. JAMES NAGLE

> 2d Maryland, Lieut. Col. J. Eugene Duryea: 167 Trained troops

> 6th New Hampshire, Col. Simon G. Griffin: 157 Trained troops

> 9th New Hampshire, Col. Enoch Q. Fellows: 710 Green troops

> 48th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. Joshua K. Sigfried: 390 Trained

> troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Brig. Gen. EDWARD FERRERO

> 21st Massachusetts, Col. William S. Clark: 158 Trained troops

> 35th Massachusetts, Col. Edward A. Wild: 750 Green troops

> 51st New York, Col. Robert B. Potter: 338 Trained troops

> 51st Pennsylvania, Col. John F. Hartranft: 333 Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> Pennsylvania Light, Battery D, Capt. George W. Durell: 6 10-lb

> Parrotts, 123 Crack troops

> 4th United States, Battery E, Capt. Joseph C. Clark, jr: 4

> 10-lb Parrotts, 118 Crack troops

>

>

> THIRD DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ISAAC P. RODMAN

>

> First Brigade: Col. HARRISON S. FAIRCHILD

> 9th New York, Lieut. Col. Edgar A. Kimball: 375 Crack troops

> 89th New York, Maj Edward Jardine: 368 Trained troops

> 103d New York, Maj Benjamin Ringold: 202 Trained troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. EDWARD HARLAND

> 8th Connecticut, Lieut. Col. Hiram Appelman: 375 Trained troops

> 11th Connecticut, Col. Henry W. Kingsbury: 430 Green troops

> 16th Connecticut, Col. Francis Beach: 739 Green troops

> 4th Rhode Island, Col. William H. P. Steere: 247 Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> 5th United States, Battery A, Lieut. Charles P. Muhlenberg: 6

> Napoleons, 123 Crack troops

>

>

> KANAWHA (4th) DIVISION: Col. ELIAKIM P. SCAMMON

>

> First Brigade: Col. HUGH EWING

> 12th Ohio, Col. Carr B. White: 200 Veteran troops

> 23d Ohio, Maj. James M. Comly: 360 Veteran troops

> 30th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Theodore Jones: 342 Veteran troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. GEORGE CROOK

> 11th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Augustus H, Coleman: 430 Trained troops

> 28th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Gottfried Becker: 719 Green troops

> 36th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Melvin Clarke: 739 Green Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> Ohio Light Artillery, First Battery, Capt. James R. McMullin: 6

> 10-lb James, 129 Veteran troops

> Kentucky Lt Artillery, Simmonds' Bty, Capt. S. Simmonds: 3

> 10-lb Parrotts, 98 Veteran troops

> 2nd New York Light, Battery L, Capt. Jacob Roemer: 6 Ordnance,

> 98 Green troops

>

> Tom Shay - Cressona, PA

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: eighth_conn_ inf

> To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:36 AM

> Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

>

> Dean,

>

> Looks like "green" may require your imposed definition. If you

> define

> it as a regiment with a majority of men who have never been in

> combat, then you have a good list already. But as you point

> out

> then "green" could also then mean a regiment with a majority

> of men

> who have been together for several months and have drilled,

> etc.,

> then that is a different kettle of fish (fresh fish). This

> would

> include most of the heavy artillery units around DC which

> turned into

> excellent cannon fodder during the Overland Campaign.

>

> IMO, "green" means a regiment which never has been in combat.

> But

> arguably a green regiment having drilled together and perhaps

> had

> marksmanship training would likely be much more effective than

> a "green" one which had none of that. I suppose you could

> assign a

> number from 1 to 10, 1 being brand new with no experience in

> anything

> to 10 being a regiment which has been in combat several times.

> This

> sounds like a great masters thesis topic.

>

> Larry F.

> Recent Activity

> a.. 2New Members

> Visit Your Group

> Only on Yahoo!

> Star Wars galaxy

>

> Create a profile

>

> and meet fans.

>

> Yahoo! News

> Kevin Sites

>

> Get coverage of

>

> world crises.

>

> Moderator Central

> Get answers to

>

> your questions about

>

> running Y! Groups.

> .

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











      

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On my last question, Tom, those categories almost sound as if they were set by a

game designer.



Did you take those by chance from the old Sid Meirs' "Antietam" game?



The reason I ask: I know some of the unedited Carman mss. is included on that

disc, but if that's where these are coming from, those categories and breakdowns

aren't Carman's. They're the work of the software designers.





----- Original Message ----

From: Joseph Pierro <joseph_pierro@...>

To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:13:07 AM

Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



Tom, I'm confused. What is your source for Carman's "classifications, " as you

list them?



I don't recall him ever breaking down regiments into formal categories of

readiness in the manner in which you provided them.



--jake



----- Original Message ----

From: RoteBaron <RoteBaron@comcast. net>

To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Friday, February 1, 2008 11:18:43 PM

Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



I don't recall him describing the categories, but Iron Brigade is an example of

Elite.



Tom Shay



----- Original Message -----

From: G E Mayers

To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:14 PM

Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



Aside from Carman's categories for Green and Trained and

obviously Veteran, what were his qualifying points for Crack and

Elite?



Yr. Obt. Svt.

G E "Gerry" Mayers



To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even

on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the

Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from

the Almighty God. --Anonymous

----- Original Message -----

From: "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@comcast. net>

To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 10:47 PM

Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



> Carman rates the infantry within these levels: Green, Trained,

> Veteran, Crack, Elite.

>

> For instance, here is Union 9th Corps:

>

> NINTH ARMY CORPS Maj Gen. A. E. BURNSIDE

> FIRST DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ORLANDO B. WILLCOX

>

> First Brigade: Col. BENJAMIN C. CHRIST

> 28th Massachusetts, Capt. Andrew P. Caraher: 217 Trained troops

> 17th Michigan, Col. William H. Withington: 525 Green troops

> 79th New York, Lieut. Col. David Morrison: 193 Trained troops

> 50th Pennsylvania, Maj. Edward Overton: 370 Trained troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. THOMAS WELSH

> 8th Michigan, Lieut. Col. Frank Graves: 435 Trained troops

> 46th New York, Lieut. Col. Joseph Gerhardt: 278 Trained troops

> 45th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. John I. Curtin: 560 Trained

> troops

> 100th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. David A. Leckey: 356 Trained

> troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> Massachusetts Light, Eighth Battery, Capt. Asa M. Cook: 6 mixed

> guns, 117 Trained troops

> 2d United States, Battery E, Lieut. Samuel N. Benjmin: 6 20-lb

> Parrotts, 129 Crack troops

>

>

> SECOND DIVISION: Brig. Gen. SAMUEL D. STURGIS

>

> First Brigade: Brig. Gen. JAMES NAGLE

> 2d Maryland, Lieut. Col. J. Eugene Duryea: 167 Trained troops

> 6th New Hampshire, Col. Simon G. Griffin: 157 Trained troops

> 9th New Hampshire, Col. Enoch Q. Fellows: 710 Green troops

> 48th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. Joshua K. Sigfried: 390 Trained

> troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Brig. Gen. EDWARD FERRERO

> 21st Massachusetts, Col. William S. Clark: 158 Trained troops

> 35th Massachusetts, Col. Edward A. Wild: 750 Green troops

> 51st New York, Col. Robert B. Potter: 338 Trained troops

> 51st Pennsylvania, Col. John F. Hartranft: 333 Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> Pennsylvania Light, Battery D, Capt. George W. Durell: 6 10-lb

> Parrotts, 123 Crack troops

> 4th United States, Battery E, Capt. Joseph C. Clark, jr: 4

> 10-lb Parrotts, 118 Crack troops

>

>

> THIRD DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ISAAC P. RODMAN

>

> First Brigade: Col. HARRISON S. FAIRCHILD

> 9th New York, Lieut. Col. Edgar A. Kimball: 375 Crack troops

> 89th New York, Maj Edward Jardine: 368 Trained troops

> 103d New York, Maj Benjamin Ringold: 202 Trained troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. EDWARD HARLAND

> 8th Connecticut, Lieut. Col. Hiram Appelman: 375 Trained troops

> 11th Connecticut, Col. Henry W. Kingsbury: 430 Green troops

> 16th Connecticut, Col. Francis Beach: 739 Green troops

> 4th Rhode Island, Col. William H. P. Steere: 247 Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> 5th United States, Battery A, Lieut. Charles P. Muhlenberg: 6

> Napoleons, 123 Crack troops

>

>

> KANAWHA (4th) DIVISION: Col. ELIAKIM P. SCAMMON

>

> First Brigade: Col. HUGH EWING

> 12th Ohio, Col. Carr B. White: 200 Veteran troops

> 23d Ohio, Maj. James M. Comly: 360 Veteran troops

> 30th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Theodore Jones: 342 Veteran troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. GEORGE CROOK

> 11th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Augustus H, Coleman: 430 Trained troops

> 28th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Gottfried Becker: 719 Green troops

> 36th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Melvin Clarke: 739 Green Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> Ohio Light Artillery, First Battery, Capt. James R. McMullin: 6

> 10-lb James, 129 Veteran troops

> Kentucky Lt Artillery, Simmonds' Bty, Capt. S. Simmonds: 3

> 10-lb Parrotts, 98 Veteran troops

> 2nd New York Light, Battery L, Capt. Jacob Roemer: 6 Ordnance,

> 98 Green troops

>

> Tom Shay - Cressona, PA

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: eighth_conn_ inf

> To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:36 AM

> Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

>

> Dean,

>

> Looks like "green" may require your imposed definition. If you

> define

> it as a regiment with a majority of men who have never been in

> combat, then you have a good list already. But as you point

> out

> then "green" could also then mean a regiment with a majority

> of men

> who have been together for several months and have drilled,

> etc.,

> then that is a different kettle of fish (fresh fish). This

> would

> include most of the heavy artillery units around DC which

> turned into

> excellent cannon fodder during the Overland Campaign.

>

> IMO, "green" means a regiment which never has been in combat.

> But

> arguably a green regiment having drilled together and perhaps

> had

> marksmanship training would likely be much more effective than

> a "green" one which had none of that. I suppose you could

> assign a

> number from 1 to 10, 1 being brand new with no experience in

> anything

> to 10 being a regiment which has been in combat several times.

> This

> sounds like a great masters thesis topic.

>

> Larry F.

> Recent Activity

> a.. 2New Members

> Visit Your Group

> Only on Yahoo!

> Star Wars galaxy

>

> Create a profile

>

> and meet fans.

>

> Yahoo! News

> Kevin Sites

>

> Get coverage of

>

> world crises.

>

> Moderator Central

> Get answers to

>

> your questions about

>

> running Y! Groups.

> .

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











      

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Indeed, that listing is from Meier's PC Game, which includes a sizable portion

of Carman's manuscript.

Sorry that I mistakenly attributed those ratings directly to Carman.



Tom Shay



   ----- Original Message -----

   From: Joseph Pierro

   To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

   Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 12:35 AM

   Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates





   On my last question, Tom, those categories almost sound as if they were set by

a game designer.



   Did you take those by chance from the old Sid Meirs' "Antietam" game?



   The reason I ask: I know some of the unedited Carman mss. is included on that

disc, but if that's where these are coming from, those categories and breakdowns

aren't Carman's. They're the work of the software designers.



   ----- Original Message ----

   From: Joseph Pierro <joseph_pierro@...>

   To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

   Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:13:07 AM

   Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



   Tom, I'm confused. What is your source for Carman's "classifications, " as you

list them?



   I don't recall him ever breaking down regiments into formal categories of

readiness in the manner in which you provided them.



   --jake



   ----- Original Message ----

   From: RoteBaron <RoteBaron@comcast. net>

   To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

   Sent: Friday, February 1, 2008 11:18:43 PM

   Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



   I don't recall him describing the categories, but Iron Brigade is an example

of Elite.



   Tom Shay



   ----- Original Message -----

   From: G E Mayers

   To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

   Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:14 PM

   Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



   Aside from Carman's categories for Green and Trained and

   obviously Veteran, what were his qualifying points for Crack and

   Elite?



   Yr. Obt. Svt.

   G E "Gerry" Mayers



   To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even

   on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the

   Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from

   the Almighty God. --Anonymous

   ----- Original Message -----

   From: "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@comcast. net>

   To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>

   Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 10:47 PM

   Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



   > Carman rates the infantry within these levels: Green, Trained,

   > Veteran, Crack, Elite.

   >

   > For instance, here is Union 9th Corps:

   >

   > NINTH ARMY CORPS Maj Gen. A. E. BURNSIDE

   > FIRST DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ORLANDO B. WILLCOX

   >

   > First Brigade: Col. BENJAMIN C. CHRIST

   > 28th Massachusetts, Capt. Andrew P. Caraher: 217 Trained troops

   > 17th Michigan, Col. William H. Withington: 525 Green troops

   > 79th New York, Lieut. Col. David Morrison: 193 Trained troops

   > 50th Pennsylvania, Maj. Edward Overton: 370 Trained troops

   >

   >

   > Second Brigade: Col. THOMAS WELSH

   > 8th Michigan, Lieut. Col. Frank Graves: 435 Trained troops

   > 46th New York, Lieut. Col. Joseph Gerhardt: 278 Trained troops

   > 45th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. John I. Curtin: 560 Trained

   > troops

   > 100th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. David A. Leckey: 356 Trained

   > troops

   >

   >

   > Artillery.

   > Massachusetts Light, Eighth Battery, Capt. Asa M. Cook: 6 mixed

   > guns, 117 Trained troops

   > 2d United States, Battery E, Lieut. Samuel N. Benjmin: 6 20-lb

   > Parrotts, 129 Crack troops

   >

   >

   > SECOND DIVISION: Brig. Gen. SAMUEL D. STURGIS

   >

   > First Brigade: Brig. Gen. JAMES NAGLE

   > 2d Maryland, Lieut. Col. J. Eugene Duryea: 167 Trained troops

   > 6th New Hampshire, Col. Simon G. Griffin: 157 Trained troops

   > 9th New Hampshire, Col. Enoch Q. Fellows: 710 Green troops

   > 48th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. Joshua K. Sigfried: 390 Trained

   > troops

   >

   >

   > Second Brigade: Brig. Gen. EDWARD FERRERO

   > 21st Massachusetts, Col. William S. Clark: 158 Trained troops

   > 35th Massachusetts, Col. Edward A. Wild: 750 Green troops

   > 51st New York, Col. Robert B. Potter: 338 Trained troops

   > 51st Pennsylvania, Col. John F. Hartranft: 333 Trained troops

   >

   >

   > Artillery.

   > Pennsylvania Light, Battery D, Capt. George W. Durell: 6 10-lb

   > Parrotts, 123 Crack troops

   > 4th United States, Battery E, Capt. Joseph C. Clark, jr: 4

   > 10-lb Parrotts, 118 Crack troops

   >

   >

   > THIRD DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ISAAC P. RODMAN

   >

   > First Brigade: Col. HARRISON S. FAIRCHILD

   > 9th New York, Lieut. Col. Edgar A. Kimball: 375 Crack troops

   > 89th New York, Maj Edward Jardine: 368 Trained troops

   > 103d New York, Maj Benjamin Ringold: 202 Trained troops

   >

   >

   > Second Brigade: Col. EDWARD HARLAND

   > 8th Connecticut, Lieut. Col. Hiram Appelman: 375 Trained troops

   > 11th Connecticut, Col. Henry W. Kingsbury: 430 Green troops

   > 16th Connecticut, Col. Francis Beach: 739 Green troops

   > 4th Rhode Island, Col. William H. P. Steere: 247 Trained troops

   >

   >

   > Artillery.

   > 5th United States, Battery A, Lieut. Charles P. Muhlenberg: 6

   > Napoleons, 123 Crack troops

   >

   >

   > KANAWHA (4th) DIVISION: Col. ELIAKIM P. SCAMMON

   >

   > First Brigade: Col. HUGH EWING

   > 12th Ohio, Col. Carr B. White: 200 Veteran troops

   > 23d Ohio, Maj. James M. Comly: 360 Veteran troops

   > 30th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Theodore Jones: 342 Veteran troops

   >

   >

   > Second Brigade: Col. GEORGE CROOK

   > 11th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Augustus H, Coleman: 430 Trained troops

   > 28th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Gottfried Becker: 719 Green troops

   > 36th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Melvin Clarke: 739 Green Trained troops

   >

   >

   > Artillery.

   > Ohio Light Artillery, First Battery, Capt. James R. McMullin: 6

   > 10-lb James, 129 Veteran troops

   > Kentucky Lt Artillery, Simmonds' Bty, Capt. S. Simmonds: 3

   > 10-lb Parrotts, 98 Veteran troops

   > 2nd New York Light, Battery L, Capt. Jacob Roemer: 6 Ordnance,

   > 98 Green troops

   >

   > Tom Shay - Cressona, PA

   >

   >

   > ----- Original Message -----

   > From: eighth_conn_ inf

   > To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

   > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:36 AM

   > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

   >

   >

   > Dean,

   >

   > Looks like "green" may require your imposed definition. If you

   > define

   > it as a regiment with a majority of men who have never been in

   > combat, then you have a good list already. But as you point

   > out

   > then "green" could also then mean a regiment with a majority

   > of men

   > who have been together for several months and have drilled,

   > etc.,

   > then that is a different kettle of fish (fresh fish). This

   > would

   > include most of the heavy artillery units around DC which

   > turned into

   > excellent cannon fodder during the Overland Campaign.

   >

   > IMO, "green" means a regiment which never has been in combat.

   > But

   > arguably a green regiment having drilled together and perhaps

   > had

   > marksmanship training would likely be much more effective than

   > a "green" one which had none of that. I suppose you could

   > assign a

   > number from 1 to 10, 1 being brand new with no experience in

   > anything

   > to 10 being a regiment which has been in combat several times.

   > This

   > sounds like a great masters thesis topic.

   >

   > Larry F.

   > Recent Activity

   > a.. 2New Members

   > Visit Your Group

   > Only on Yahoo!

   > Star Wars galaxy

   >

   > Create a profile

   >

   > and meet fans.

   >

   > Yahoo! News

   > Kevin Sites

   >

   > Get coverage of

   >

   > world crises.

   >

   > Moderator Central

   > Get answers to

   >

   > your questions about

   >

   > running Y! Groups.

   > .

   >

   >

   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

   >

   >



   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

   Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

   http://www.yahoo. com/r/hs



   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   __________________________________________________________

   Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

   http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs



   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I was going to ask about this, but certainly didn't want to seem rude or

ungrateful. The

categories did seem a little too convenient.



The strength numbers look a lot like the values in Ted Alexander's files at the

park (man, I

wish I was close enough to bop over there and cross check). Many of my strength

values

(the hard ones) come from there... Jake, is there any such strength listing in

Carmen or are

these likely to be from the park plus whatever the designers found or thought

they found?



Lastly, it lists several very small regiments as forming under the command of

other

regiments in the same brigade (a perfectly reasonable thing to do to keep

command

control), but I don't know if this is actually the way they went into battle or

an act of

convenience by the designers.



I'm very wary of using other games as sources because I'm well aware of the

amount of

fill-in-the-blank work that needs to be done and don't trust anyone to do mine

for me.



--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...> wrote:

>

> Indeed, that listing is from Meier's PC Game, which includes a sizable portion

of

Carman's manuscript.

> Sorry that I mistakenly attributed those ratings directly to Carman.

>

> Tom Shay

>

>   ----- Original Message -----

>   From: Joseph Pierro

>   To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

>   Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 12:35 AM

>   Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

>

>   On my last question, Tom, those categories almost sound as if they were set

by a game

designer.

>

>   Did you take those by chance from the old Sid Meirs' "Antietam" game?

>

>   The reason I ask: I know some of the unedited Carman mss. is included on

that disc,

but if that's where these are coming from, those categories and breakdowns

aren't

Carman's. They're the work of the software designers.

>

>   ----- Original Message ----

>   From: Joseph Pierro <joseph_pierro@...>

>   To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

>   Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:13:07 AM

>   Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

>   Tom, I'm confused. What is your source for Carman's "classifications, " as

you list

them?

>

>   I don't recall him ever breaking down regiments into formal categories of

readiness in

the manner in which you provided them.

>

>   --jake

>

>   ----- Original Message ----

>   From: RoteBaron <RoteBaron@comcast. net>

>   To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

>   Sent: Friday, February 1, 2008 11:18:43 PM

>   Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

>   I don't recall him describing the categories, but Iron Brigade is an example

of Elite.

>

>   Tom Shay

>

>   ----- Original Message -----

>   From: G E Mayers

>   To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

>   Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:14 PM

>   Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

>   Aside from Carman's categories for Green and Trained and

>   obviously Veteran, what were his qualifying points for Crack and

>   Elite?

>

>   Yr. Obt. Svt.

>   G E "Gerry" Mayers

>

>   To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even

>   on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the

>   Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from

>   the Almighty God. --Anonymous

>   ----- Original Message -----

>   From: "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@comcast. net>

>   To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>

>   Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 10:47 PM

>   Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

>   > Carman rates the infantry within these levels: Green, Trained,

>   > Veteran, Crack, Elite.

>   >

>   > For instance, here is Union 9th Corps:

>   >

>   > NINTH ARMY CORPS Maj Gen. A. E. BURNSIDE

>   > FIRST DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ORLANDO B. WILLCOX

>   >

>   > First Brigade: Col. BENJAMIN C. CHRIST

>   > 28th Massachusetts, Capt. Andrew P. Caraher: 217 Trained troops

>   > 17th Michigan, Col. William H. Withington: 525 Green troops

>   > 79th New York, Lieut. Col. David Morrison: 193 Trained troops

>   > 50th Pennsylvania, Maj. Edward Overton: 370 Trained troops

>   >

>   >

>   > Second Brigade: Col. THOMAS WELSH

>   > 8th Michigan, Lieut. Col. Frank Graves: 435 Trained troops

>   > 46th New York, Lieut. Col. Joseph Gerhardt: 278 Trained troops

>   > 45th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. John I. Curtin: 560 Trained

>   > troops

>   > 100th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. David A. Leckey: 356 Trained

>   > troops

>   >

>   >

>   > Artillery.

>   > Massachusetts Light, Eighth Battery, Capt. Asa M. Cook: 6 mixed

>   > guns, 117 Trained troops

>   > 2d United States, Battery E, Lieut. Samuel N. Benjmin: 6 20-lb

>   > Parrotts, 129 Crack troops

>   >

>   >

>   > SECOND DIVISION: Brig. Gen. SAMUEL D. STURGIS

>   >

>   > First Brigade: Brig. Gen. JAMES NAGLE

>   > 2d Maryland, Lieut. Col. J. Eugene Duryea: 167 Trained troops

>   > 6th New Hampshire, Col. Simon G. Griffin: 157 Trained troops

>   > 9th New Hampshire, Col. Enoch Q. Fellows: 710 Green troops

>   > 48th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. Joshua K. Sigfried: 390 Trained

>   > troops

>   >

>   >

>   > Second Brigade: Brig. Gen. EDWARD FERRERO

>   > 21st Massachusetts, Col. William S. Clark: 158 Trained troops

>   > 35th Massachusetts, Col. Edward A. Wild: 750 Green troops

>   > 51st New York, Col. Robert B. Potter: 338 Trained troops

>   > 51st Pennsylvania, Col. John F. Hartranft: 333 Trained troops

>   >

>   >

>   > Artillery.

>   > Pennsylvania Light, Battery D, Capt. George W. Durell: 6 10-lb

>   > Parrotts, 123 Crack troops

>   > 4th United States, Battery E, Capt. Joseph C. Clark, jr: 4

>   > 10-lb Parrotts, 118 Crack troops

>   >

>   >

>   > THIRD DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ISAAC P. RODMAN

>   >

>   > First Brigade: Col. HARRISON S. FAIRCHILD

>   > 9th New York, Lieut. Col. Edgar A. Kimball: 375 Crack troops

>   > 89th New York, Maj Edward Jardine: 368 Trained troops

>   > 103d New York, Maj Benjamin Ringold: 202 Trained troops

>   >

>   >

>   > Second Brigade: Col. EDWARD HARLAND

>   > 8th Connecticut, Lieut. Col. Hiram Appelman: 375 Trained troops

>   > 11th Connecticut, Col. Henry W. Kingsbury: 430 Green troops

>   > 16th Connecticut, Col. Francis Beach: 739 Green troops

>   > 4th Rhode Island, Col. William H. P. Steere: 247 Trained troops

>   >

>   >

>   > Artillery.

>   > 5th United States, Battery A, Lieut. Charles P. Muhlenberg: 6

>   > Napoleons, 123 Crack troops

>   >

>   >

>   > KANAWHA (4th) DIVISION: Col. ELIAKIM P. SCAMMON

>   >

>   > First Brigade: Col. HUGH EWING

>   > 12th Ohio, Col. Carr B. White: 200 Veteran troops

>   > 23d Ohio, Maj. James M. Comly: 360 Veteran troops

>   > 30th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Theodore Jones: 342 Veteran troops

>   >

>   >

>   > Second Brigade: Col. GEORGE CROOK

>   > 11th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Augustus H, Coleman: 430 Trained troops

>   > 28th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Gottfried Becker: 719 Green troops

>   > 36th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Melvin Clarke: 739 Green Trained troops

>   >

>   >

>   > Artillery.

>   > Ohio Light Artillery, First Battery, Capt. James R. McMullin: 6

>   > 10-lb James, 129 Veteran troops

>   > Kentucky Lt Artillery, Simmonds' Bty, Capt. S. Simmonds: 3

>   > 10-lb Parrotts, 98 Veteran troops

>   > 2nd New York Light, Battery L, Capt. Jacob Roemer: 6 Ordnance,

>   > 98 Green troops

>   >

>   > Tom Shay - Cressona, PA

>   >

>   >

>   > ----- Original Message -----

>   > From: eighth_conn_ inf

>   > To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

>   > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:36 AM

>   > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>   >

>   >

>   > Dean,

>   >

>   > Looks like "green" may require your imposed definition. If you

>   > define

>   > it as a regiment with a majority of men who have never been in

>   > combat, then you have a good list already. But as you point

>   > out

>   > then "green" could also then mean a regiment with a majority

>   > of men

>   > who have been together for several months and have drilled,

>   > etc.,

>   > then that is a different kettle of fish (fresh fish). This

>   > would

>   > include most of the heavy artillery units around DC which

>   > turned into

>   > excellent cannon fodder during the Overland Campaign.

>   >

>   > IMO, "green" means a regiment which never has been in combat.

>   > But

>   > arguably a green regiment having drilled together and perhaps

>   > had

>   > marksmanship training would likely be much more effective than

>   > a "green" one which had none of that. I suppose you could

>   > assign a

>   > number from 1 to 10, 1 being brand new with no experience in

>   > anything

>   > to 10 being a regiment which has been in combat several times.

>   > This

>   > sounds like a great masters thesis topic.

>   >

>   > Larry F.

>   > Recent Activity

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Lol! Thank God!!! For a minute, I thought I left a whole bunch of pages out of

the book. . . .



:)





----- Original Message ----

From: RoteBaron <RoteBaron@...>

To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:39:41 AM

Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



Indeed, that listing is from Meier's PC Game, which includes a sizable portion

of Carman's manuscript.

Sorry that I mistakenly attributed those ratings directly to Carman.



Tom Shay



----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Pierro

To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 12:35 AM

Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



On my last question, Tom, those categories almost sound as if they were set by a

game designer.



Did you take those by chance from the old Sid Meirs' "Antietam" game?



The reason I ask: I know some of the unedited Carman mss. is included on that

disc, but if that's where these are coming from, those categories and breakdowns

aren't Carman's. They're the work of the software designers.



----- Original Message ----

From: Joseph Pierro <joseph_pierro@ yahoo.com>

To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:13:07 AM

Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



Tom, I'm confused. What is your source for Carman's "classifications, " as you

list them?



I don't recall him ever breaking down regiments into formal categories of

readiness in the manner in which you provided them.



--jake



----- Original Message ----

From: RoteBaron <RoteBaron@comcast. net>

To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Friday, February 1, 2008 11:18:43 PM

Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



I don't recall him describing the categories, but Iron Brigade is an example of

Elite.



Tom Shay



----- Original Message -----

From: G E Mayers

To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:14 PM

Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



Aside from Carman's categories for Green and Trained and

obviously Veteran, what were his qualifying points for Crack and

Elite?



Yr. Obt. Svt.

G E "Gerry" Mayers



To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even

on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the

Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from

the Almighty God. --Anonymous

----- Original Message -----

From: "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@comcast. net>

To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>

Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 10:47 PM

Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



> Carman rates the infantry within these levels: Green, Trained,

> Veteran, Crack, Elite.

>

> For instance, here is Union 9th Corps:

>

> NINTH ARMY CORPS Maj Gen. A. E. BURNSIDE

> FIRST DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ORLANDO B. WILLCOX

>

> First Brigade: Col. BENJAMIN C. CHRIST

> 28th Massachusetts, Capt. Andrew P. Caraher: 217 Trained troops

> 17th Michigan, Col. William H. Withington: 525 Green troops

> 79th New York, Lieut. Col. David Morrison: 193 Trained troops

> 50th Pennsylvania, Maj. Edward Overton: 370 Trained troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. THOMAS WELSH

> 8th Michigan, Lieut. Col. Frank Graves: 435 Trained troops

> 46th New York, Lieut. Col. Joseph Gerhardt: 278 Trained troops

> 45th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. John I. Curtin: 560 Trained

> troops

> 100th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. David A. Leckey: 356 Trained

> troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> Massachusetts Light, Eighth Battery, Capt. Asa M. Cook: 6 mixed

> guns, 117 Trained troops

> 2d United States, Battery E, Lieut. Samuel N. Benjmin: 6 20-lb

> Parrotts, 129 Crack troops

>

>

> SECOND DIVISION: Brig. Gen. SAMUEL D. STURGIS

>

> First Brigade: Brig. Gen. JAMES NAGLE

> 2d Maryland, Lieut. Col. J. Eugene Duryea: 167 Trained troops

> 6th New Hampshire, Col. Simon G. Griffin: 157 Trained troops

> 9th New Hampshire, Col. Enoch Q. Fellows: 710 Green troops

> 48th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. Joshua K. Sigfried: 390 Trained

> troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Brig. Gen. EDWARD FERRERO

> 21st Massachusetts, Col. William S. Clark: 158 Trained troops

> 35th Massachusetts, Col. Edward A. Wild: 750 Green troops

> 51st New York, Col. Robert B. Potter: 338 Trained troops

> 51st Pennsylvania, Col. John F. Hartranft: 333 Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> Pennsylvania Light, Battery D, Capt. George W. Durell: 6 10-lb

> Parrotts, 123 Crack troops

> 4th United States, Battery E, Capt. Joseph C. Clark, jr: 4

> 10-lb Parrotts, 118 Crack troops

>

>

> THIRD DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ISAAC P. RODMAN

>

> First Brigade: Col. HARRISON S. FAIRCHILD

> 9th New York, Lieut. Col. Edgar A. Kimball: 375 Crack troops

> 89th New York, Maj Edward Jardine: 368 Trained troops

> 103d New York, Maj Benjamin Ringold: 202 Trained troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. EDWARD HARLAND

> 8th Connecticut, Lieut. Col. Hiram Appelman: 375 Trained troops

> 11th Connecticut, Col. Henry W. Kingsbury: 430 Green troops

> 16th Connecticut, Col. Francis Beach: 739 Green troops

> 4th Rhode Island, Col. William H. P. Steere: 247 Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> 5th United States, Battery A, Lieut. Charles P. Muhlenberg: 6

> Napoleons, 123 Crack troops

>

>

> KANAWHA (4th) DIVISION: Col. ELIAKIM P. SCAMMON

>

> First Brigade: Col. HUGH EWING

> 12th Ohio, Col. Carr B. White: 200 Veteran troops

> 23d Ohio, Maj. James M. Comly: 360 Veteran troops

> 30th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Theodore Jones: 342 Veteran troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. GEORGE CROOK

> 11th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Augustus H, Coleman: 430 Trained troops

> 28th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Gottfried Becker: 719 Green troops

> 36th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Melvin Clarke: 739 Green Trained troops

>

>

> Artillery.

> Ohio Light Artillery, First Battery, Capt. James R. McMullin: 6

> 10-lb James, 129 Veteran troops

> Kentucky Lt Artillery, Simmonds' Bty, Capt. S. Simmonds: 3

> 10-lb Parrotts, 98 Veteran troops

> 2nd New York Light, Battery L, Capt. Jacob Roemer: 6 Ordnance,

> 98 Green troops

>

> Tom Shay - Cressona, PA

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: eighth_conn_ inf

> To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:36 AM

> Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

>

> Dean,

>

> Looks like "green" may require your imposed definition. If you

> define

> it as a regiment with a majority of men who have never been in

> combat, then you have a good list already. But as you point

> out

> then "green" could also then mean a regiment with a majority

> of men

> who have been together for several months and have drilled,

> etc.,

> then that is a different kettle of fish (fresh fish). This

> would

> include most of the heavy artillery units around DC which

> turned into

> excellent cannon fodder during the Overland Campaign.

>

> IMO, "green" means a regiment which never has been in combat.

> But

> arguably a green regiment having drilled together and perhaps

> had

> marksmanship training would likely be much more effective than

> a "green" one which had none of that. I suppose you could

> assign a

> number from 1 to 10, 1 being brand new with no experience in

> anything

> to 10 being a regiment which has been in combat several times.

> This

> sounds like a great masters thesis topic.

>

> Larry F.

> Recent Activity

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> Visit Your Group

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>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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________________________________________________________________________________\

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Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Larry, here is the data from Meier's Antietam PC game's documentation for

cavalry:



CAVALRY DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ALFRED PLEASONTON



First Brigade: Maj. CHARLES J. WHITING

5th United States, Capt. Joseph H. McArthur: 169 Veteran troops

6th United States, Capt. William P. Sanders: 186 Veteran troops





Second Brigade: Col. JOHN F. FARNSWORTH

8th Illinois, Maj. William H. Medill: 219 Veteran troops

3d Indiana, Maj. George H. Chapman: 184 Trained troops

1st Massachusetts, Capt. Casper Crowninshield: 234 Trained troops

8th Pennsylvania, Capt. Peter Keenan: 255 Trained troops





Third Brigade: Col. RICHARD H. RUSH

4th Pennsylvania, Col. James H. Childs: 299 Trained troops

6th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. C. Ross Smith: 266 Veteran troops





Fourth Brigade: Col. ANDREW T. McREYNOLDS

1st New York, Maj. Alonzo W. Adams: 295 Trained troops

12th Pennsylvania, Maj. James A. Congdon: 309 Green troops





Fifth Brigade: Col. BENJAMIN F. DAVIS

8th New York, Col. Benjamin F. Davis: 258 Trained troops

3d Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. Samuel W. Owen: 302 Trained troops

Horse Artillery 2d United States, Battery A, Capt. John C. Tidball: 6 Ordnance,

121 Elite troops

2d United States, Batteries B and L, Capt. James M. Robertson: 4 Ordnance, 116

Crack troops

2d United States, Battery M, Lieut. Peter C. Hains: 6 Ordnance, 127 Crack troops

3d United States, Batteries C and G, Capt. Horatio G. Gibson: 6 Ordnance, 132

Crack troops





=========================================================

CAVALRY: Maj. Gen. JAMES E. B. STUART



Hampton's Brigade: Brig. Gen. WADE HAMPTON

1st North Carolina, Col. L. S. Baker: 237 Veteran troops

2d South Carolina, Col. M. C. Butler: 258 Trained troops

10th Virginia, CO unknown: 235 Veteran troops

Cobb's (Georgia) Legion, Lieut. Col. P. Young: combined with JD Legion Jeff.

Davis Legion, Lieut. Col. W. T. Martin: 154 Crack troops





Lee's Brigade: Brig. Gen. FITZ. LEE

1st Virginia, Lieut. Col. L. Tiernan Brien: 219 Elite troops

3d Virginia, Lieut. Col. John T. Thornton: 234 Elite troops

4th Virginia, Col. Williams C. Wickham: 214 Elite troops

5th Virginia, Col. T. L. Rosser: 208 Elite troops

9th Virginia, Col. W.H.F. Lee: 229 Elite troops





Robertson's Brigade: Col. THOMAS T. MUNFORD

2d Virginia, Lieutenant-Colonel Burks: 179 Elite troops

7th Virginia, Capt. S. B. Myers: 214 Crack troops

l2th Virginia, Col. A. W. Harman: 223 Crack troops

17th Virginia Battalion: 120 Veteran troops





HORSE ARTILLERY: Capt. JOHN PELHAM

Chew's (Virginia) battery: 3 Ordnance, 63 Elite troops

Hart's (South Carolina) battery: 4 Ordnance, 74 Elite troops

Pelham's (Virginia) battery: 6 mixed guns, 87 Elite troops





Tom Shay





   ----- Original Message -----

   From: eighth_conn_inf

   To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

   Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 8:54 AM

   Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates





   Tom,



   What does the game have for ratings for cavalry units, Union and

   Confederate?



   Thank you,

   Larry F.

   Recent Activity

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom,



Any indication where he got the numbers from?



Thanks again,



Larry



--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...>

wrote:

>

> Larry, here is the data from Meier's Antietam PC game's

documentation for cavalry:

>

> CAVALRY DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ALFRED PLEASONTON

>

> First Brigade: Maj. CHARLES J. WHITING

> 5th United States, Capt. Joseph H. McArthur: 169 Veteran troops

> 6th United States, Capt. William P. Sanders: 186 Veteran troops

>

>

> Second Brigade: Col. JOHN F. FARNSWORTH

> 8th Illinois, Maj. William H. Medill: 219 Veteran troops

> 3d Indiana, Maj. George H. Chapman: 184 Trained troops

> 1st Massachusetts, Capt. Casper Crowninshield: 234 Trained troops

> 8th Pennsylvania, Capt. Peter Keenan: 255 Trained troops

>

>

> Third Brigade: Col. RICHARD H. RUSH

> 4th Pennsylvania, Col. James H. Childs: 299 Trained troops

> 6th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. C. Ross Smith: 266 Veteran troops

>

>

> Fourth Brigade: Col. ANDREW T. McREYNOLDS

> 1st New York, Maj. Alonzo W. Adams: 295 Trained troops

> 12th Pennsylvania, Maj. James A. Congdon: 309 Green troops

>

>

> Fifth Brigade: Col. BENJAMIN F. DAVIS

> 8th New York, Col. Benjamin F. Davis: 258 Trained troops

> 3d Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. Samuel W. Owen: 302 Trained troops

> Horse Artillery 2d United States, Battery A, Capt. John C. Tidball:

6 Ordnance, 121 Elite troops

> 2d United States, Batteries B and L, Capt. James M. Robertson: 4

Ordnance, 116 Crack troops

> 2d United States, Battery M, Lieut. Peter C. Hains: 6 Ordnance, 127

Crack troops

> 3d United States, Batteries C and G, Capt. Horatio G. Gibson: 6

Ordnance, 132 Crack troops

>

>

> =========================================================

> CAVALRY: Maj. Gen. JAMES E. B. STUART

>

> Hampton's Brigade: Brig. Gen. WADE HAMPTON

> 1st North Carolina, Col. L. S. Baker: 237 Veteran troops

> 2d South Carolina, Col. M. C. Butler: 258 Trained troops

> 10th Virginia, CO unknown: 235 Veteran troops

> Cobb's (Georgia) Legion, Lieut. Col. P. Young: combined with JD

Legion Jeff. Davis Legion, Lieut. Col. W. T. Martin: 154 Crack troops

>

>

> Lee's Brigade: Brig. Gen. FITZ. LEE

> 1st Virginia, Lieut. Col. L. Tiernan Brien: 219 Elite troops

> 3d Virginia, Lieut. Col. John T. Thornton: 234 Elite troops

> 4th Virginia, Col. Williams C. Wickham: 214 Elite troops

> 5th Virginia, Col. T. L. Rosser: 208 Elite troops

> 9th Virginia, Col. W.H.F. Lee: 229 Elite troops

>

>

> Robertson's Brigade: Col. THOMAS T. MUNFORD

> 2d Virginia, Lieutenant-Colonel Burks: 179 Elite troops

> 7th Virginia, Capt. S. B. Myers: 214 Crack troops

> l2th Virginia, Col. A. W. Harman: 223 Crack troops

> 17th Virginia Battalion: 120 Veteran troops

>

>

> HORSE ARTILLERY: Capt. JOHN PELHAM

> Chew's (Virginia) battery: 3 Ordnance, 63 Elite troops

> Hart's (South Carolina) battery: 4 Ordnance, 74 Elite troops

> Pelham's (Virginia) battery: 6 mixed guns, 87 Elite troops

>

>

> Tom Shay

>

>

>   ----- Original Message -----

>   From: eighth_conn_inf

>   To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

>   Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 8:54 AM

>   Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

>

>   Tom,

>

>   What does the game have for ratings for cavalry units, Union and

>   Confederate?

>

>   Thank you,

>   Larry F.

>   Recent Activity

>     a..  1New Members

>   Visit Your Group

>   Only on Yahoo!

>   World of Star Wars

>

>   Meet fans, watch

>

>   videos & more.

>

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>   Kevin Sites

>

>   Get coverage of

>

>   world crises.

>

>   Yahoo! Groups

>   How-To Zone

>

>   Do-It-Yourselfers

>

>   Connect & share.

>   .

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

In John Schildt's "Monuments at Antietam", John notes that the

procession to dedicate Simon left the Sharpsburg Square at 2pm. There

is no footnote and it is too early in the morning to call him, so I was

wondering if anyone knows the cite for that bit.



I am talking about the 1880 monument dedication, not the 1867

dedication of the cornerstone. Thanks.



Stephen (who is looking forward to walking the battlefield in the snow

today.)

I am trying to date these photos/stereoviews taken by Hagerstown's own

E.M. Recher.



SUNKEN ROAD

http://www.virtualantietam.com/dan_transfer/recher1.jpg

I believe the printing of this stereoview dates from 1880-1882. It is

on a flat orange mount with rounded corners with no list on the back.

It is in a series with views of Simon's dedication (1880). I have found

the photo in three books with three different dates for the negative -

1872, 1877, and 1880. The log cabin is present in a 1904 view of the

130th PA veterans, so that does not help with the dating.



DUNKER CHURCH

http://www.virtualantietam.com/dan_transfer/recher2.jpg

This stereoview is on a similar mount as the Sunken Road view, but it

is warped, which would date it to 1882. I have found the photo in a

newspaper article that dates it to 1877. The church looks much like it

did in the 1863 Gardner views.



SIMON DEDICATION #1

http://www.virtualantietam.com/dan_transfer/recher3.jpg

I/m pretty sure this view was taken the morning of the dedication,

September 17, 1880. The shadows are shorter than the next view, but the

trees look identical, making me think it was taken earlier the same

day. The mount is flat, dating it 1880-1882. Don't need much help here.



SIMON DEDICATION #2

http://www.virtualantietam.com/dan_transfer/recher4.jpg

Obviously this view was taken on September 17, 1880. The mount is flat,

dating it pre-1882. The main difference between this and the previous

view is that the barn in the distance has closed its door. Would this

be the Otto barn?



Any thoughts or hints? Thanks.



Stephen

Dear Stephen,



One thing is clear...the Sunken Road slide, and I suspect the

others....are meant to be viewed in either a magic lantern or a

stereoscopic viewer of some sort.



This particular photo seems to be one of the more famed post view

views of the Sunken Road. The cabin in the distance is, IIRC,

that built for one of the freed slaves formerly owned by Mr

Piper. The cabin is on the edge of the Piper Farm property.



Yr. Obt. Svt.

G E "Gerry" Mayers



To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even

on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the

Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from

the Almighty God. --Anonymous

----- Original Message -----

From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>

To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 8:46 AM

Subject: [TalkAntietam] Recher photo dates





>I am trying to date these photos/stereoviews taken by

>Hagerstown's own

> E.M. Recher.

>

> SUNKEN ROAD

> http://www.virtualantietam.com/dan_transfer/recher1.jpg

> I believe the printing of this stereoview dates from 1880-1882.

> It is

> on a flat orange mount with rounded corners with no list on the

> back.

> It is in a series with views of Simon's dedication (1880). I

> have found

> the photo in three books with three different dates for the

> negative -

> 1872, 1877, and 1880. The log cabin is present in a 1904 view

> of the

> 130th PA veterans, so that does not help with the dating.

>

<snip>

Dean:



Carman offers fairly detailed reconstructions of the strengths and losses of

both armies. Because his focus was on the totality of the campaign, his concern

(understandably) was to try and arrive at renderings of the whole, not the

parts.



While he occasionally gives individual regimental strengths for Federal units at

points throughout his narrative, his comprehensive workup for the strength of

the entire Army of the Potomac is organized at the division level (though in a

few instances he gives brigade by brigade figures).



He offers more regimental-level figures for Confederate regiments, as in many

cases large-unit totals did not appear in the extant records. (He uses the known

strength of regiments in a given brigade to extrapolate brigade strengths.)



--jake



----- Original Message ----

From: dean_essig <dean_essig@...>

To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2008 8:24:00 AM

Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates



I was going to ask about this, but certainly didn't want to seem rude or

ungrateful. The

categories did seem a little too convenient.



The strength numbers look a lot like the values in Ted Alexander's files at the

park (man, I

wish I was close enough to bop over there and cross check). Many of my strength

values

(the hard ones) come from there... Jake, is there any such strength listing in

Carmen or are

these likely to be from the park plus whatever the designers found or thought

they found?



Lastly, it lists several very small regiments as forming under the command of

other

regiments in the same brigade (a perfectly reasonable thing to do to keep

command

control), but I don't know if this is actually the way they went into battle or

an act of

convenience by the designers.



I'm very wary of using other games as sources because I'm well aware of the

amount of

fill-in-the- blank work that needs to be done and don't trust anyone to do mine

for me.



--- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@. ..> wrote:

>

> Indeed, that listing is from Meier's PC Game, which includes a sizable portion

of

Carman's manuscript.

> Sorry that I mistakenly attributed those ratings directly to Carman.

>

> Tom Shay

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Joseph Pierro

> To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 12:35 AM

> Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

>

> On my last question, Tom, those categories almost sound as if they were set by

a game

designer.

>

> Did you take those by chance from the old Sid Meirs' "Antietam" game?

>

> The reason I ask: I know some of the unedited Carman mss. is included on that

disc,

but if that's where these are coming from, those categories and breakdowns

aren't

Carman's. They're the work of the software designers.

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: Joseph Pierro <joseph_pierro@ ...>

> To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

> Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:13:07 AM

> Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

> Tom, I'm confused. What is your source for Carman's "classifications, " as you

list

them?

>

> I don't recall him ever breaking down regiments into formal categories of

readiness in

the manner in which you provided them.

>

> --jake

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: RoteBaron <RoteBaron@comcast. net>

> To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

> Sent: Friday, February 1, 2008 11:18:43 PM

> Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

> I don't recall him describing the categories, but Iron Brigade is an example

of Elite.

>

> Tom Shay

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: G E Mayers

> To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:14 PM

> Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

> Aside from Carman's categories for Green and Trained and

> obviously Veteran, what were his qualifying points for Crack and

> Elite?

>

> Yr. Obt. Svt.

> G E "Gerry" Mayers

>

> To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even

> on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the

> Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from

> the Almighty God. --Anonymous

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@comcast. net>

> To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>

> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 10:47 PM

> Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

> > Carman rates the infantry within these levels: Green, Trained,

> > Veteran, Crack, Elite.

> >

> > For instance, here is Union 9th Corps:

> >

> > NINTH ARMY CORPS Maj Gen. A. E. BURNSIDE

> > FIRST DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ORLANDO B. WILLCOX

> >

> > First Brigade: Col. BENJAMIN C. CHRIST

> > 28th Massachusetts, Capt. Andrew P. Caraher: 217 Trained troops

> > 17th Michigan, Col. William H. Withington: 525 Green troops

> > 79th New York, Lieut. Col. David Morrison: 193 Trained troops

> > 50th Pennsylvania, Maj. Edward Overton: 370 Trained troops

> >

> >

> > Second Brigade: Col. THOMAS WELSH

> > 8th Michigan, Lieut. Col. Frank Graves: 435 Trained troops

> > 46th New York, Lieut. Col. Joseph Gerhardt: 278 Trained troops

> > 45th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. John I. Curtin: 560 Trained

> > troops

> > 100th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. David A. Leckey: 356 Trained

> > troops

> >

> >

> > Artillery.

> > Massachusetts Light, Eighth Battery, Capt. Asa M. Cook: 6 mixed

> > guns, 117 Trained troops

> > 2d United States, Battery E, Lieut. Samuel N. Benjmin: 6 20-lb

> > Parrotts, 129 Crack troops

> >

> >

> > SECOND DIVISION: Brig. Gen. SAMUEL D. STURGIS

> >

> > First Brigade: Brig. Gen. JAMES NAGLE

> > 2d Maryland, Lieut. Col. J. Eugene Duryea: 167 Trained troops

> > 6th New Hampshire, Col. Simon G. Griffin: 157 Trained troops

> > 9th New Hampshire, Col. Enoch Q. Fellows: 710 Green troops

> > 48th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. Joshua K. Sigfried: 390 Trained

> > troops

> >

> >

> > Second Brigade: Brig. Gen. EDWARD FERRERO

> > 21st Massachusetts, Col. William S. Clark: 158 Trained troops

> > 35th Massachusetts, Col. Edward A. Wild: 750 Green troops

> > 51st New York, Col. Robert B. Potter: 338 Trained troops

> > 51st Pennsylvania, Col. John F. Hartranft: 333 Trained troops

> >

> >

> > Artillery.

> > Pennsylvania Light, Battery D, Capt. George W. Durell: 6 10-lb

> > Parrotts, 123 Crack troops

> > 4th United States, Battery E, Capt. Joseph C. Clark, jr: 4

> > 10-lb Parrotts, 118 Crack troops

> >

> >

> > THIRD DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ISAAC P. RODMAN

> >

> > First Brigade: Col. HARRISON S. FAIRCHILD

> > 9th New York, Lieut. Col. Edgar A. Kimball: 375 Crack troops

> > 89th New York, Maj Edward Jardine: 368 Trained troops

> > 103d New York, Maj Benjamin Ringold: 202 Trained troops

> >

> >

> > Second Brigade: Col. EDWARD HARLAND

> > 8th Connecticut, Lieut. Col. Hiram Appelman: 375 Trained troops

> > 11th Connecticut, Col. Henry W. Kingsbury: 430 Green troops

> > 16th Connecticut, Col. Francis Beach: 739 Green troops

> > 4th Rhode Island, Col. William H. P. Steere: 247 Trained troops

> >

> >

> > Artillery.

> > 5th United States, Battery A, Lieut. Charles P. Muhlenberg: 6

> > Napoleons, 123 Crack troops

> >

> >

> > KANAWHA (4th) DIVISION: Col. ELIAKIM P. SCAMMON

> >

> > First Brigade: Col. HUGH EWING

> > 12th Ohio, Col. Carr B. White: 200 Veteran troops

> > 23d Ohio, Maj. James M. Comly: 360 Veteran troops

> > 30th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Theodore Jones: 342 Veteran troops

> >

> >

> > Second Brigade: Col. GEORGE CROOK

> > 11th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Augustus H, Coleman: 430 Trained troops

> > 28th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Gottfried Becker: 719 Green troops

> > 36th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Melvin Clarke: 739 Green Trained troops

> >

> >

> > Artillery.

> > Ohio Light Artillery, First Battery, Capt. James R. McMullin: 6

> > 10-lb James, 129 Veteran troops

> > Kentucky Lt Artillery, Simmonds' Bty, Capt. S. Simmonds: 3

> > 10-lb Parrotts, 98 Veteran troops

> > 2nd New York Light, Battery L, Capt. Jacob Roemer: 6 Ordnance,

> > 98 Green troops

> >

> > Tom Shay - Cressona, PA

> >

> >

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: eighth_conn_ inf

> > To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:36 AM

> > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

> >

> >

> > Dean,

> >

> > Looks like "green" may require your imposed definition. If you

> > define

> > it as a regiment with a majority of men who have never been in

> > combat, then you have a good list already. But as you point

> > out

> > then "green" could also then mean a regiment with a majority

> > of men

> > who have been together for several months and have drilled,

> > etc.,

> > then that is a different kettle of fish (fresh fish). This

> > would

> > include most of the heavy artillery units around DC which

> > turned into

> > excellent cannon fodder during the Overland Campaign.

> >

> > IMO, "green" means a regiment which never has been in combat.

> > But

> > arguably a green regiment having drilled together and perhaps

> > had

> > marksmanship training would likely be much more effective than

> > a "green" one which had none of that. I suppose you could

> > assign a

> > number from 1 to 10, 1 being brand new with no experience in

> > anything

> > to 10 being a regiment which has been in combat several times.

> > This

> > sounds like a great masters thesis topic.

> >

> > Larry F.

> > Recent Activity

> > a.. 2New Members

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> >

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> >

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> >

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> >

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> >

> > running Y! Groups.

> > .

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> >

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It all helps... brings context to wholes and all that.

  Can't wait!



--- Joseph Pierro <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:



> Dean:

>

> Carman offers fairly detailed reconstructions of the

> strengths and losses of both armies. Because his

> focus was on the totality of the campaign, his

> concern (understandably) was to try and arrive at

> renderings of the whole, not the parts.

>

> While he occasionally gives individual regimental

> strengths for Federal units at points throughout his

> narrative, his comprehensive workup for the strength

> of the entire Army of the Potomac is organized at

> the division level (though in a few instances he

> gives brigade by brigade figures).

>

> He offers more regimental-level figures for

> Confederate regiments, as in many cases large-unit

> totals did not appear in the extant records. (He

> uses the known strength of regiments in a given

> brigade to extrapolate brigade strengths.)

>

> --jake

>

> ----- Original Message ----

> From: dean_essig <dean_essig@...>

> To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

> Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2008 8:24:00 AM

> Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

> I was going to ask about this, but certainly didn't

> want to seem rude or ungrateful. The

> categories did seem a little too convenient.

>

> The strength numbers look a lot like the values in

> Ted Alexander's files at the park (man, I

> wish I was close enough to bop over there and cross

> check). Many of my strength values

> (the hard ones) come from there... Jake, is there

> any such strength listing in Carmen or are

> these likely to be from the park plus whatever the

> designers found or thought they found?

>

> Lastly, it lists several very small regiments as

> forming under the command of other

> regiments in the same brigade (a perfectly

> reasonable thing to do to keep command

> control), but I don't know if this is actually the

> way they went into battle or an act of

> convenience by the designers.

>

> I'm very wary of using other games as sources

> because I'm well aware of the amount of

> fill-in-the- blank work that needs to be done and

> don't trust anyone to do mine for me.

>

> --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, "RoteBaron"

> <RoteBaron@. ..> wrote:

> >

> > Indeed, that listing is from Meier's PC Game,

> which includes a sizable portion of

> Carman's manuscript.

> > Sorry that I mistakenly attributed those ratings

> directly to Carman.

> >

> > Tom Shay

> >

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: Joseph Pierro

> > To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

> > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 12:35 AM

> > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

> >

> >

> > On my last question, Tom, those categories almost

> sound as if they were set by a game

> designer.

> >

> > Did you take those by chance from the old Sid

> Meirs' "Antietam" game?

> >

> > The reason I ask: I know some of the unedited

> Carman mss. is included on that disc,

> but if that's where these are coming from, those

> categories and breakdowns aren't

> Carman's. They're the work of the software

> designers.

> >

> > ----- Original Message ----

> > From: Joseph Pierro <joseph_pierro@ ...>

> > To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

> > Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:13:07 AM

> > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

> >

> > Tom, I'm confused. What is your source for

> Carman's "classifications, " as you list

> them?

> >

> > I don't recall him ever breaking down regiments

> into formal categories of readiness in

> the manner in which you provided them.

> >

> > --jake

> >

> > ----- Original Message ----

> > From: RoteBaron <RoteBaron@comcast. net>

> > To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

> > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2008 11:18:43 PM

> > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

> >

> > I don't recall him describing the categories, but

> Iron Brigade is an example of Elite.

> >

> > Tom Shay

> >

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: G E Mayers

> > To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com

> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:14 PM

> > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

> >

> > Aside from Carman's categories for Green and

> Trained and

> > obviously Veteran, what were his qualifying points

> for Crack and

> > Elite?

> >

> > Yr. Obt. Svt.

> > G E "Gerry" Mayers

> >

> > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage,

> adoption, or even

> > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any

> state in the

> > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a

> benediction from

> > the Almighty God. --Anonymous

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@comcast. net>

> > To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>

> > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 10:47 PM

> > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

> >

> > > Carman rates the infantry within these levels:

> Green, Trained,

> > > Veteran, Crack, Elite.

> > >

> > > For instance, here is Union 9th Corps:

> > >

> > > NINTH ARMY CORPS Maj Gen. A. E. BURNSIDE

> > > FIRST DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ORLANDO B. WILLCOX

> > >

> > > First Brigade: Col. BENJAMIN C. CHRIST

> > > 28th Massachusetts, Capt. Andrew P. Caraher: 217

> Trained troops

> > > 17th Michigan, Col. William H. Withington: 525

> Green troops

> > > 79th New York, Lieut. Col. David Morrison: 193

> Trained troops

> > > 50th Pennsylvania, Maj. Edward Overton: 370

> Trained troops

> > >

> > >

> > > Second Brigade: Col. THOMAS WELSH

> > > 8th Michigan, Lieut. Col. Frank Graves: 435

> Trained troops

> > > 46th New York, Lieut. Col. Joseph Gerhardt: 278

> Trained troops

> > > 45th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. John I. Curtin:

> 560 Trained

> > > troops

> > > 100th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. David A. Leckey:

> 356 Trained

> > > troops

> > >

> > >

> > > Artillery.

> > > Massachusetts Light, Eighth Battery, Capt. Asa

> M. Cook: 6 mixed

> > > guns, 117 Trained troops

> > > 2d United States, Battery E, Lieut. Samuel N.

> Benjmin: 6 20-lb

> > > Parrotts, 129 Crack troops

> > >

> > >

> > > SECOND DIVISION: Brig. Gen. SAMUEL D. STURGIS

> > >

> > > First Brigade: Brig. Gen. JAMES NAGLE

> > > 2d Maryland, Lieut. Col. J. Eugene Duryea: 167

> Trained troops

> > > 6th New Hampshire, Col. Simon G. Griffin: 157

> Trained troops

> > > 9th New Hampshire, Col. Enoch Q. Fellows: 710

> Green troops

> > > 48th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. Joshua K.

> Sigfried: 390 Trained

> > > troops

> > >

> > >

> > > Second Brigade: Brig. Gen. EDWARD FERRERO

> > > 21st Massachusetts, Col. William S. Clark: 158

> Trained troops

>

=== message truncated ===







      

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Larry,



As Joe has noted, the numbers are not from Carman, but from the software

developer (Sid Meier). No source for the numbers is mentioned.



I sent you several private emails about the Carman data, did you get them?



Tom Shay





   ----- Original Message -----

   From: eighth_conn_inf

   To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

   Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 9:53 PM

   Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates





   Tom,



   Any indication where he got the numbers from?



   Thanks again,



   Larry



   --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...>

   wrote:

   >

   > Larry, here is the data from Meier's Antietam PC game's

   documentation for cavalry:

   >

   > CAVALRY DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ALFRED PLEASONTON

   >

   > First Brigade: Maj. CHARLES J. WHITING

   > 5th United States, Capt. Joseph H. McArthur: 169 Veteran troops

   > 6th United States, Capt. William P. Sanders: 186 Veteran troops

   >

   >

   > Second Brigade: Col. JOHN F. FARNSWORTH

   > 8th Illinois, Maj. William H. Medill: 219 Veteran troops

   > 3d Indiana, Maj. George H. Chapman: 184 Trained troops

   > 1st Massachusetts, Capt. Casper Crowninshield: 234 Trained troops

   > 8th Pennsylvania, Capt. Peter Keenan: 255 Trained troops

   >

   >

   > Third Brigade: Col. RICHARD H. RUSH

   > 4th Pennsylvania, Col. James H. Childs: 299 Trained troops

   > 6th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. C. Ross Smith: 266 Veteran troops

   >

   >

   > Fourth Brigade: Col. ANDREW T. McREYNOLDS

   > 1st New York, Maj. Alonzo W. Adams: 295 Trained troops

   > 12th Pennsylvania, Maj. James A. Congdon: 309 Green troops

   >

   >

   > Fifth Brigade: Col. BENJAMIN F. DAVIS

   > 8th New York, Col. Benjamin F. Davis: 258 Trained troops

   > 3d Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. Samuel W. Owen: 302 Trained troops

   > Horse Artillery 2d United States, Battery A, Capt. John C. Tidball:

   6 Ordnance, 121 Elite troops

   > 2d United States, Batteries B and L, Capt. James M. Robertson: 4

   Ordnance, 116 Crack troops

   > 2d United States, Battery M, Lieut. Peter C. Hains: 6 Ordnance, 127

   Crack troops

   > 3d United States, Batteries C and G, Capt. Horatio G. Gibson: 6

   Ordnance, 132 Crack troops

   >

   >

   > =========================================================

   > CAVALRY: Maj. Gen. JAMES E. B. STUART

   >

   > Hampton's Brigade: Brig. Gen. WADE HAMPTON

   > 1st North Carolina, Col. L. S. Baker: 237 Veteran troops

   > 2d South Carolina, Col. M. C. Butler: 258 Trained troops

   > 10th Virginia, CO unknown: 235 Veteran troops

   > Cobb's (Georgia) Legion, Lieut. Col. P. Young: combined with JD

   Legion Jeff. Davis Legion, Lieut. Col. W. T. Martin: 154 Crack troops

   >

   >

   > Lee's Brigade: Brig. Gen. FITZ. LEE

   > 1st Virginia, Lieut. Col. L. Tiernan Brien: 219 Elite troops

   > 3d Virginia, Lieut. Col. John T. Thornton: 234 Elite troops

   > 4th Virginia, Col. Williams C. Wickham: 214 Elite troops

   > 5th Virginia, Col. T. L. Rosser: 208 Elite troops

   > 9th Virginia, Col. W.H.F. Lee: 229 Elite troops

   >

   >

   > Robertson's Brigade: Col. THOMAS T. MUNFORD

   > 2d Virginia, Lieutenant-Colonel Burks: 179 Elite troops

   > 7th Virginia, Capt. S. B. Myers: 214 Crack troops

   > l2th Virginia, Col. A. W. Harman: 223 Crack troops

   > 17th Virginia Battalion: 120 Veteran troops

   >

   >

   > HORSE ARTILLERY: Capt. JOHN PELHAM

   > Chew's (Virginia) battery: 3 Ordnance, 63 Elite troops

   > Hart's (South Carolina) battery: 4 Ordnance, 74 Elite troops

   > Pelham's (Virginia) battery: 6 mixed guns, 87 Elite troops

   >

   >

   > Tom Shay

   >

   >

   > ----- Original Message -----

   > From: eighth_conn_inf

   > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

   > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 8:54 AM

   > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

   >

   >

   > Tom,

   >

   > What does the game have for ratings for cavalry units, Union and

   > Confederate?

   >

   > Thank you,

   > Larry F.

   > Recent Activity

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tom,



Sorry, I should have checked my mail--yes, I have your e-mails about

Sid's game which should be useful especially if I can pin down his

sources through his bibliography. Thank you very much for your help!



Larry



--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...>

wrote:

>

> Larry,

>

> As Joe has noted, the numbers are not from Carman, but from the

software developer (Sid Meier). No source for the numbers is

mentioned.

>

> I sent you several private emails about the Carman data, did you

get them?

>

> Tom Shay

>

>

>   ----- Original Message -----

>   From: eighth_conn_inf

>   To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

>   Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 9:53 PM

>   Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>

>

>   Tom,

>

>   Any indication where he got the numbers from?

>

>   Thanks again,

>

>   Larry

>

>   --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@>

>   wrote:

>   >

>   > Larry, here is the data from Meier's Antietam PC game's

>   documentation for cavalry:

>   >

>   > CAVALRY DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ALFRED PLEASONTON

>   >

>   > First Brigade: Maj. CHARLES J. WHITING

>   > 5th United States, Capt. Joseph H. McArthur: 169 Veteran troops

>   > 6th United States, Capt. William P. Sanders: 186 Veteran troops

>   >

>   >

>   > Second Brigade: Col. JOHN F. FARNSWORTH

>   > 8th Illinois, Maj. William H. Medill: 219 Veteran troops

>   > 3d Indiana, Maj. George H. Chapman: 184 Trained troops

>   > 1st Massachusetts, Capt. Casper Crowninshield: 234 Trained

troops

>   > 8th Pennsylvania, Capt. Peter Keenan: 255 Trained troops

>   >

>   >

>   > Third Brigade: Col. RICHARD H. RUSH

>   > 4th Pennsylvania, Col. James H. Childs: 299 Trained troops

>   > 6th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. C. Ross Smith: 266 Veteran troops

>   >

>   >

>   > Fourth Brigade: Col. ANDREW T. McREYNOLDS

>   > 1st New York, Maj. Alonzo W. Adams: 295 Trained troops

>   > 12th Pennsylvania, Maj. James A. Congdon: 309 Green troops

>   >

>   >

>   > Fifth Brigade: Col. BENJAMIN F. DAVIS

>   > 8th New York, Col. Benjamin F. Davis: 258 Trained troops

>   > 3d Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. Samuel W. Owen: 302 Trained troops

>   > Horse Artillery 2d United States, Battery A, Capt. John C.

Tidball:

>   6 Ordnance, 121 Elite troops

>   > 2d United States, Batteries B and L, Capt. James M. Robertson:

4

>   Ordnance, 116 Crack troops

>   > 2d United States, Battery M, Lieut. Peter C. Hains: 6 Ordnance,

127

>   Crack troops

>   > 3d United States, Batteries C and G, Capt. Horatio G. Gibson: 6

>   Ordnance, 132 Crack troops

>   >

>   >

>   > =========================================================

>   > CAVALRY: Maj. Gen. JAMES E. B. STUART

>   >

>   > Hampton's Brigade: Brig. Gen. WADE HAMPTON

>   > 1st North Carolina, Col. L. S. Baker: 237 Veteran troops

>   > 2d South Carolina, Col. M. C. Butler: 258 Trained troops

>   > 10th Virginia, CO unknown: 235 Veteran troops

>   > Cobb's (Georgia) Legion, Lieut. Col. P. Young: combined with JD

>   Legion Jeff. Davis Legion, Lieut. Col. W. T. Martin: 154 Crack

troops

>   >

>   >

>   > Lee's Brigade: Brig. Gen. FITZ. LEE

>   > 1st Virginia, Lieut. Col. L. Tiernan Brien: 219 Elite troops

>   > 3d Virginia, Lieut. Col. John T. Thornton: 234 Elite troops

>   > 4th Virginia, Col. Williams C. Wickham: 214 Elite troops

>   > 5th Virginia, Col. T. L. Rosser: 208 Elite troops

>   > 9th Virginia, Col. W.H.F. Lee: 229 Elite troops

>   >

>   >

>   > Robertson's Brigade: Col. THOMAS T. MUNFORD

>   > 2d Virginia, Lieutenant-Colonel Burks: 179 Elite troops

>   > 7th Virginia, Capt. S. B. Myers: 214 Crack troops

>   > l2th Virginia, Col. A. W. Harman: 223 Crack troops

>   > 17th Virginia Battalion: 120 Veteran troops

>   >

>   >

>   > HORSE ARTILLERY: Capt. JOHN PELHAM

>   > Chew's (Virginia) battery: 3 Ordnance, 63 Elite troops

>   > Hart's (South Carolina) battery: 4 Ordnance, 74 Elite troops

>   > Pelham's (Virginia) battery: 6 mixed guns, 87 Elite troops

>   >

>   >

>   > Tom Shay

>   >

>   >

>   > ----- Original Message -----

>   > From: eighth_conn_inf

>   > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

>   > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 8:54 AM

>   > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates

>   >

>   >

>   > Tom,

>   >

>   > What does the game have for ratings for cavalry units, Union

and

>   > Confederate?

>   >

>   > Thank you,

>   > Larry F.

>   > Recent Activity

>   > a.. 1New Members

>   > Visit Your Group

>   > Only on Yahoo!

>   > World of Star Wars

>   >

>   > Meet fans, watch

>   >

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>   > Kevin Sites

>   >

>   > Get coverage of

>   >

>   > world crises.

>   >

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>   >

>   > Do-It-Yourselfers

>   >

>   > Connect & share.

>   > .

>   >

>   >

>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>   >

>

>

>

>

>

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>