Gerry,

Yes, this is a tall order, How much material from the Official Records have you
studied and documented? That is where my research on the battle stands at
present--a re-organization of the OR reports by time, specific geographic
locations and then regiment. It is very much a "work in progress" at this point.
One would assume that you have studied the OR material and it might be redundant
for me to pass it along.

In regard to routes of march, there are only a few roads leading from Fox's Gap
through Keedysville to Antietam, so it should be simple to evaluate them by
process of elimination. It did that with the Seventeenth Michigan (Christ's
Brigade)--along with several day of actually driving and walking the entire
route.

Bill Christen
Fox's Gap Question specif re 4th NC
Posted by: "G E Mayers"

For the past several years, I've been working on a book project,
personal, about the 4th NC during the Maryland Campaign . . . Where I need help
with are:
1. Where . . .
5. How long . . .on the Sharpsburg Ridge facing the
Antietam Creek?
This is sort of a tall order,

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Bill,

I recd. your note last evening and spent the night contemplating
it.

Unlike you, I have not been perusing the Confederate and Federal
reports in the ORs. As you know, my book project is pretty much
strictly from the Confederate side. The "timeline" if you will
which I posted is a synthesis of all my reading of the last few
years from other primary sources, including the Battles and
Leaders article by D H Hill, as well as the book "To Drive the
Enemy from Southern Soil" (the letters of F M Parker of the 30th
NC).

Mainly what I wanted to know was whether my timeline was a
reasonable reconstruction of events as far as Anderson's NC
Brigade was concerned for Fox's Gap and then their retreat routes
etc after leaving the mountain the night of September 14th.

Yr. Obt. Svt.
G E "Gerry" Mayers

To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
the Almighty God. --Anonymous
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill and Glenna Jo Christen" <gwjchris@...>
To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 10:56 AM
Subject: [TalkAntietam] RE: [Fox's Gap Question specif re 4th NC


>
> Gerry,
>
> Yes, this is a tall order, How much material from the Official
> Records have you studied and documented? <snip>>
> In regard to routes of march, there are only a few roads
> leading from Fox's Gap through Keedysville to Antietam, so it
> should be simple to evaluate them by process of elimination. It
> did that with the Seventeenth Michigan (Christ's
> Brigade)--along with several day of actually driving and
> walking the entire route.
>
> Bill Christen

Hi Everyone!

I'm busy trying to figure out the ammunition available to the 20-pdr Parrot
rifles on the
17th.

Based on the need (during the day) to request an emergency train of 2,500 rounds
sent to
the AoP, I'm assuming that the available rounds were (or were expected to be)
expended
in the battle of the 17th.

The data showing the number of rounds actually fired is, as far as I know, lost
to time. I'm
trying to estimate the total from the ground up.

To do so, I need to get an idea of the number of rounds per gun in the basic
load for a 20
pounder.

Two questions arise:

1) What is the quantity of rounds in the standard ammunition chest for a 20 pdr?
I believe
the chest held 32 for 12 pdr weapons, I'm assuming the number will be less, but
I don't
know what was standard.

2) I'm assuming a gun carriage-caisson combination for these guns held the same
number of such chests as other guns (4). Is this correct?

This leaves the amount of such ammunition available in reserve in the army
trains. It
appears the amount there is pretty slim, suggested by the report of Lt Benjamin
(IX Corps
artillery) who was only able to get a resupply of 40 rounds after refilling his
stocks on the
night of the 16th.

Thank you for your help!

Gerry,

Have you checked out the book "As You May Never See Us Again: The Civil
War Letters of George and Walter Battle, 4th North Carolina Infantry"?
I've been thinking about checking it out and would love your opinion.

I've been doing some research on Edwin Osborne of the 4th NC. I went to
UNC Chapel Hill and scanned his autobiography. I'll see if there is
anything there.

Stephen


On Sunday, January 27, 2008, at 09:49  AM, G E Mayers wrote:

> Dear Bill,
>
> I recd. your note last evening and spent the night contemplating
> it.
>
> Unlike you, I have not been perusing the Confederate and Federal
> reports in the ORs. As you know, my book project is pretty much
> strictly from the Confederate side. The "timeline" if you will
> which I posted is a synthesis of all my reading of the last few
> years from other primary sources, including the Battles and
> Leaders article by D H Hill, as well as the book "To Drive the
> Enemy from Southern Soil" (the letters of F M Parker of the 30th
> NC).
>
> Mainly what I wanted to know was whether my timeline was a
> reasonable reconstruction of events as far as Anderson's NC
> Brigade was concerned for Fox's Gap and then their retreat routes
> etc after leaving the mountain the night of September 14th.
>
> Yr. Obt. Svt.
> G E "Gerry" Mayers
>
> To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
> on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
> Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
> the Almighty God. --Anonymous
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill and Glenna Jo Christen" <gwjchris@...>
> To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 10:56 AM
> Subject: [TalkAntietam] RE: [Fox's Gap Question specif re 4th NC
>
> >
> > Gerry,
> >
> > Yes, this is a tall order, How much material from the Official
> > Records have you studied and documented? <snip>>
> > In regard to routes of march, there are only a few roads
> > leading from Fox's Gap through Keedysville to Antietam, so it
> > should be simple to evaluate them by process of elimination. It
> > did that with the Seventeenth Michigan (Christ's
> > Brigade)--along with several day of actually driving and
> > walking the entire route.
> >
> > Bill Christen
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dean,
The Instructions for Field Artillery manual, updated in 1864 to include the
rifled guns, says this about the 4 chests of ammunition accompanying 20 pdr.
Parrott rifles:
  "The 10 pdr. Parrott and 3 inch rifle each carry 50 rounds per chest.  The 20
pouinder Parott carrys 25.  The proper assortment of ammunition and the method
of packing for rifled guns, being still on experiment, is as yet still be
determined."
That would only allow 100 rounds per gun, not very much.   Because the boxes
were uniform size the bigger the projectile the less rounds per box.  What  I
don't get is how they could get 32 rounds 4.62" for a Napoleon in a box, but
only 25 20 pdrs. 3.67"   Unless it was because the powder bag was detached for
rifles, attached to the sabot for smoothbores.

By the way, we talked a while ago about 20 pdr. Parrotts and mentioned McGilvary
and Robinson's 4th & 6th ME battieries.  Johnson and Anderson in Antietam
Artillery hell conclude that they did NOT have 20 pdr Parrotts but other eapons.
The mistake lies with the Hanson report in the NPS.



Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
Professor of History
Hagerstown Community College


>>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 01/27/08 11:21 AM >>>
Hi Everyone!

I'm busy trying to figure out the ammunition available to the 20-pdr Parrot
rifles on the
17th.

Based on the need (during the day) to request an emergency train of 2,500 rounds
sent to
the AoP, I'm assuming that the available rounds were (or were expected to be)
expended
in the battle of the 17th.

The data showing the number of rounds actually fired is, as far as I know, lost
to time. I'm
trying to estimate the total from the ground up.

To do so, I need to get an idea of the number of rounds per gun in the basic
load for a 20
pounder.

Two questions arise:

1) What is the quantity of rounds in the standard ammunition chest for a 20 pdr?
I believe
the chest held 32 for 12 pdr weapons, I'm assuming the number will be less, but
I don't
know what was standard.

2) I'm assuming a gun carriage-caisson combination for these guns held the same
number of such chests as other guns (4). Is this correct?

This leaves the amount of such ammunition available in reserve in the army
trains. It
appears the amount there is pretty slim, suggested by the report of Lt Benjamin
(IX Corps
artillery) who was only able to get a resupply of 40 rounds after refilling his
stocks on the
night of the 16th.

Thank you for your help!

--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
>
> Dean,
> The Instructions for Field Artillery manual, updated in 1864 to include the
rifled guns,
says this about the 4 chests of ammunition accompanying 20 pdr. Parrott rifles:
>  "The 10 pdr. Parrott and 3 inch rifle each carry 50 rounds per chest.  The 20
pouinder
Parott carrys 25.  The proper assortment of ammunition and the method of packing
for
rifled guns, being still on experiment, is as yet still be determined."
> That would only allow 100 rounds per gun, not very much.   Because the boxes
were
uniform size the bigger the projectile the less rounds per box.  What  I don't
get is how
they could get 32 rounds 4.62" for a Napoleon in a box, but only 25 20 pdrs.
3.67"
Unless it was because the powder bag was detached for rifles, attached to the
sabot for
smoothbores.
>
> By the way, we talked a while ago about 20 pdr. Parrotts and mentioned
McGilvary and
Robinson's 4th & 6th ME battieries.  Johnson and Anderson in Antietam Artillery
hell
conclude that they did NOT have 20 pdr Parrotts but other eapons.  The mistake
lies with
the Hanson report in the NPS.
>

Thank you so much, Dr. Clemens!

Right now I have the following:

E, 2 US (Benjamin): 4x 20pdr Rifle
KY Lt Artillery (Simmonds): 2x 20pdr Rifle
A, 1 Bn NY Lt (Wever): 4x 20pdr Rifle
B, 1 Bn NY Lt (Kleiser): 4x 20pdr Rifle
C, 1 Bn NY Lt (Langner): 4x 20pdr Rifle
5 NY Lt (Taft): 4x 20pdr Rifle

(D, 1 NY Lt with heavy howitzers, Robinson with 6 rifles (not sure if they are
10pdr or 3
inch) and McGilvery with 4 Napoleons).

Interestingly, 25 per box, 4 per gun, gives 2,200 total rounds making the
emergency
shipment probably the standard issue of the ammunition to cover the basic load
of the
army plus a 300 round reserve. Which makes sense.

Dear Stephen,

Believe it or not, I know about the Battle brothers and have a
copies of some of their letters. I was not aware about that
particular book.

I am also quite aware of Osbourne; a fascinating person, indeed.

Yr. Obt. Svt.
G E "Gerry" Mayers

To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
the Almighty God. --Anonymous
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] RE: [Fox's Gap Question specif re 4th
NC


> Gerry,
>
> Have you checked out the book "As You May Never See Us Again:
> The Civil
> War Letters of George and Walter Battle, 4th North Carolina
> Infantry"?
> I've been thinking about checking it out and would love your
> opinion.
>
> I've been doing some research on Edwin Osborne of the 4th NC. I
> went to
> UNC Chapel Hill and scanned his autobiography. I'll see if
> there is
> anything there.
>
> Stephen
>
>
> On Sunday, January 27, 2008, at 09:49  AM, G E Mayers wrote:
>
>> Dear Bill,
>>
>> I recd. your note last evening and spent the night
>> contemplating
>> it.
>>
>> Unlike you, I have not been perusing the Confederate and
>> Federal
>> reports in the ORs. As you know, my book project is pretty
>> much
>> strictly from the Confederate side. The "timeline" if you will
>> which I posted is a synthesis of all my reading of the last
>> few
>> years from other primary sources, including the Battles and
>> Leaders article by D H Hill, as well as the book "To Drive the
>> Enemy from Southern Soil" (the letters of F M Parker of the
>> 30th
>> NC).
>>
>> Mainly what I wanted to know was whether my timeline was a
>> reasonable reconstruction of events as far as Anderson's NC
>> Brigade was concerned for Fox's Gap and then their retreat
>> routes
>> etc after leaving the mountain the night of September 14th.
>>
>> Yr. Obt. Svt.
>> G E "Gerry" Mayers
>>
>> To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
>> even
>> on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
>> Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
>> from
>> the Almighty God. --Anonymous
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bill and Glenna Jo Christen" <gwjchris@...>
>> To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 10:56 AM
>> Subject: [TalkAntietam] RE: [Fox's Gap Question specif re 4th
>> NC
>>
>> >
>> > Gerry,
>> >
>> > Yes, this is a tall order, How much material from the
>> > Official
>> > Records have you studied and documented? <snip>>
>> > In regard to routes of march, there are only a few roads
>> > leading from Fox's Gap through Keedysville to Antietam, so
>> > it
>> > should be simple to evaluate them by process of elimination.
>> > It
>> > did that with the Seventeenth Michigan (Christ's
>> > Brigade)--along with several day of actually driving and
>> > walking the entire route.
>> >
>> > Bill Christen
>>
>>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

I assume the sender (Dean Essig) is the designer from MMP (formerly The Gamers),
which does a grand job publishing boardgames, including Civil War games. With
fellow designers such as Dave Powell, their products are always well-researched
and top-notch.

Since South Mountain is on-topic for this forum, I'll recommend a link on MMP
website regarding their upcoming South Mtn game.  It describes the game and has
a link to the game's mapsheet.

http://www.multimanpublishing.com/preorder/viewGame.php?id=40

Tom Shay - Cressona, PA


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: dean_essig
   To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 11:21 AM
   Subject: [TalkAntietam] 20 Pounder Ammunition


   Hi Everyone!

   I'm busy trying to figure out the ammunition available to the 20-pdr Parrot
rifles on the
   17th.

   Based on the need (during the day) to request an emergency train of 2,500
rounds sent to
   the AoP, I'm assuming that the available rounds were (or were expected to be)
expended
   in the battle of the 17th.

   The data showing the number of rounds actually fired is, as far as I know,
lost to time. I'm
   trying to estimate the total from the ground up.

   To do so, I need to get an idea of the number of rounds per gun in the basic
load for a 20
   pounder.

   Two questions arise:

   1) What is the quantity of rounds in the standard ammunition chest for a 20
pdr? I believe
   the chest held 32 for 12 pdr weapons, I'm assuming the number will be less,
but I don't
   know what was standard.

   2) I'm assuming a gun carriage-caisson combination for these guns held the
same
   number of such chests as other guns (4). Is this correct?

   This leaves the amount of such ammunition available in reserve in the army
trains. It
   appears the amount there is pretty slim, suggested by the report of Lt
Benjamin (IX Corps
   artillery) who was only able to get a resupply of 40 rounds after refilling
his stocks on the
   night of the 16th.

   Thank you for your help!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dean,
It sounds like you're doing good work, and I hope you'll share it with us when
you're finished.  BTW, the information i cited was from p.11 of the manual
cited, authored by French, Barry & hunt.  Let me know if you need publisher,
etc.


Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
Professor of History
Hagerstown Community College


>>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 01/27/08 4:40 PM >>>
--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
>
> Dean,
> The Instructions for Field Artillery manual, updated in 1864 to include the
rifled guns,
says this about the 4 chests of ammunition accompanying 20 pdr. Parrott rifles:
>  "The 10 pdr. Parrott and 3 inch rifle each carry 50 rounds per chest.  The 20
pouinder
Parott carrys 25.  The proper assortment of ammunition and the method of packing
for
rifled guns, being still on experiment, is as yet still be determined."
> That would only allow 100 rounds per gun, not very much.   Because the boxes
were
uniform size the bigger the projectile the less rounds per box.  What  I don't
get is how
they could get 32 rounds 4.62" for a Napoleon in a box, but only 25 20 pdrs.
3.67"
Unless it was because the powder bag was detached for rifles, attached to the
sabot for
smoothbores.
>
> By the way, we talked a while ago about 20 pdr. Parrotts and mentioned
McGilvary and
Robinson's 4th & 6th ME battieries.  Johnson and Anderson in Antietam Artillery
hell
conclude that they did NOT have 20 pdr Parrotts but other eapons.  The mistake
lies with
the Hanson report in the NPS.
>

Thank you so much, Dr. Clemens!

Right now I have the following:

E, 2 US (Benjamin): 4x 20pdr Rifle
KY Lt Artillery (Simmonds): 2x 20pdr Rifle
A, 1 Bn NY Lt (Wever): 4x 20pdr Rifle
B, 1 Bn NY Lt (Kleiser): 4x 20pdr Rifle
C, 1 Bn NY Lt (Langner): 4x 20pdr Rifle
5 NY Lt (Taft): 4x 20pdr Rifle

(D, 1 NY Lt with heavy howitzers, Robinson with 6 rifles (not sure if they are
10pdr or 3
inch) and McGilvery with 4 Napoleons).

Interestingly, 25 per box, 4 per gun, gives 2,200 total rounds making the
emergency
shipment probably the standard issue of the ammunition to cover the basic load
of the
army plus a 300 round reserve. Which makes sense.

I'm looking for the best map detailing AP HIll's route of march from Harpers
Ferry to Antietam.

The roadside marker in Beverton, WV has a decent map, but not enough detail.

I believe the big Antietam seminar (held in 2007) offered a tour of the route,
so perhaps someone attend that tour and got a map handout? Any other sources?

Tom Shay

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Dean,

Just checked on these guys.  I have some details, clarification, if
that'll help. My favorite source for guns on the Maryland Campaign is
Anderson & Johnson.  As per their "Artillery Hell", you're spot-on
with the V Corps batteries and their 20 pounders.

> A, 1 Bn NY Lt (Wever): 4x 20pdr Rifle
> B, 1 Bn NY Lt (Kleiser): 4x 20pdr Rifle
> C, 1 Bn NY Lt (Langner): 4x 20pdr Rifle
> 5 NY Lt (Taft): 4x 20pdr Rifle

Benjamin's, of the IX Corps, too.
> E, 2 US (Benjamin): 4x 20pdr Rifle

> KY Lt Artillery (Simmonds): 2x 20pdr Rifle
For Simmonds they list:
   2   20-lb. Parrott
   3   10-lb. Parrott
   1   12-lb. Howitzer; iron tubed version, probably Confederate,
captured in West Virginia

> D, 1 NY Lt with heavy howitzers
This is Kusserow's battery of
   6   32lb Howitzers

> Robinson with 6 rifles (not sure if they are 10pdr or 3 inch)
If by Robinson, you mean the Maine Light Artillery, 4th Battery, they
are shown with
   3  3-in. Ordnance Rifles;

... the other Robinson battery on the Campaign, 1st Ohio Light
Artillery, Battery L, had
6   Napoleon

> and McGilvery with 4 Napoleons.
These, the Maine Light, 6th Battery, with
   3   Napoleon
   1   3-in. Ordnance Rifle

Looking forward to what ever you're up to here!

Tom,

Yes, that's me... secret identity blown, now I know how Batman feels. ;-)

--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...> wrote:
>
> I assume the sender (Dean Essig) is the designer from MMP (formerly The
Gamers), which
does a grand job publishing boardgames, including Civil War games. With fellow
designers
such as Dave Powell, their products are always well-researched and top-notch.
>
> Since South Mountain is on-topic for this forum, I'll recommend a link on MMP
website
regarding their upcoming South Mtn game.  It describes the game and has a link
to the
game's mapsheet.
>
> http://www.multimanpublishing.com/preorder/viewGame.php?id=40

--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
>
> Dean,
> It sounds like you're doing good work, and I hope you'll share it with us when
you're
finished.

Thomas,

Thank you and certainly. The OOB work has come a long way and I have some
remaining
loose ends to tie up.

Tracking down all the elements of Pleasonton's Cav Division was a real joy.
Let's just say for
the moment that the organization in the OR does not reflect the units present on
the field
that day.

Dean

--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, bdowney@... wrote:
>
> Hi Dean,
>
> Just checked on these guys.  I have some details, clarification, if
> that'll help. My favorite source for guns on the Maryland Campaign is
> Anderson & Johnson.  As per their "Artillery Hell", you're spot-on
> with the V Corps batteries and their 20 pounders.

Artillery Hell was the base source.

> For Simmonds they list:
>   2   20-lb. Parrott
>   3   10-lb. Parrott
>   1   12-lb. Howitzer; iron tubed version, probably Confederate,
> captured in West Virginia

Sorry, I didn't list the rest of the battery, just the 20-pdrs I was tracking.

> > Robinson with 6 rifles (not sure if they are 10pdr or 3 inch)
> If by Robinson, you mean the Maine Light Artillery, 4th Battery, they
> are shown with
>   3  3-in. Ordnance Rifles;
>
> ... the other Robinson battery on the Campaign, 1st Ohio Light
> Artillery, Battery L, had
> 6   Napoleon

I was looking at 4 ME Lt


> Looking forward to what ever you're up to here!

This is all for the simulation game for MMP covering Antietam itself. It is a
game in the
same series as South Mountain (as was linked earlier by Tom) and the 1998
monster
covering Gettysburg (This Hallowed Ground).

Dean

Actually, I could use this information as well... I'm going to physically
measure the Hill route
and compare it to the routes taken by McLaws and Anderson on the ground to see
just how
much longer Hill's was. I rather agree with Harsh here, there is something fishy
going on with
Hill that was swept under the rug because of the events of that day.

(Of course, all this requires that I identify the exact routes taken by the
other divisions
coming from Harpers Ferry as well...)

Yes the OOB looks more organized that it was at the time.  A lot of that cavalry
sort of straggled in during the campaign, some as late as the 17th.


Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
Professor of History
Hagerstown Community College


>>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 01/27/08 6:12 PM >>>
--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
>
> Dean,
> It sounds like you're doing good work, and I hope you'll share it with us when
you're
finished.

Thomas,

Thank you and certainly. The OOB work has come a long way and I have some
remaining
loose ends to tie up.

Tracking down all the elements of Pleasonton's Cav Division was a real joy.
Let's just say for
the moment that the organization in the OR does not reflect the units present on
the field
that day.

Dean

Here's what I've got:

!5 PA Cav (Dismounted)... in PA, probed south to Hagerstown during the battle,
lost one
man.
1 ME Cav... at Frederick MD

1 Bde
5 US Cav... present
6 US Cav ...present, but detached as provost guard, probably around Keedysville.

2 Bde
1 Mass Cav... present
3 Ind Cav... 6 companies present, rest in Indiana and KY
8 Ill Cav... present
8 PA Cav... present

3 Bde
4 PA Cav... present
6 PA Cav... present (3 companies only available)

4 Bde
12 PA Cav... detached duty as provost behind 1st and 12th Corps
1 NY Cav... arrives on the 18th, was not available.

5 Bde
3 PA Cav... detached duty with 1st Corps
8 NY Cav ... not present, Greencastle PA

So, of 14 potential regiments in the OR organization, we have 10 actually there,
of them
two detached to the 1st and 12th corps areas and another one on army provost
duty. Of
the last 7 available in the division, two between them shared all of 9
companies.

That places effectively 6 regiments in the hands of Pleasonton's "Five Brigade"
division
when McClellan asked him if a cavalry charge would do any good.

Hello All:



I was wonering if anyone knows how you actually take the Sherrick Farmhouse
trail?  I was at Antietam this today and wanted to walk to the Sherrick
farmhouse.  I parked at the Burnside Bridge and walked along the stone
fence.  At the bottom corner, the Union Advance trail / Sherrick Farmhouse
trail breaks off from each other.  The Sherrick Farmhouse marker points up
over the road, so I went up that way, but when I got up to the road, I
didn't see another sign.  I started to walk down the other side of the
creek, but didn't see a trail there.  Am I literally supposed to walk along
the road up to the house?  I really had no idea which way to go.



Thanks

Andy



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello All:



I walked the Union Advance trail today and as I was on the hill behind the
Burnside Bridge, I was wondering.  How the heck did 500 Georgians hold off
an entire Union Corps?  I can see from the creek with the rifle pits, how
they could dig in, but up on that hill, you are almost looking down on them.
Bring in some sharp shooters and it is a field day.  Bring up some cannon
and you can blast them out in 2 or 3 cannon shots.



I understand that ridge above also had some cannon to offset these few
Georgians, but once you get on that hill behind, how can these few Georgians
actually hold the entire Corps?  That is a VERY commanding hill and it keeps
going back.



Am I missing some key piece to the puzzle?



Thanks

Andy



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
wrote:
>
> Gerry,
>
> Have you checked out the book "As You May Never See Us Again: The
Civil
> War Letters of George and Walter Battle, 4th North Carolina
Infantry"?
> I've been thinking about checking it out and would love your
opinion.
>
> I've been doing some research on Edwin Osborne of the 4th NC. I
went to
> UNC Chapel Hill and scanned his autobiography. I'll see if there is
> anything there.
>


   Stephen,

   Col. E. A. Osborne wrote the sketch of the 4th N.C. that appears in
Walter Clark's "Histories of the Several Regiments and Battalions
from North Carolina in the Great War 1861-'65.  As for the book you
mentioned, the letters are great. Two letter not to be missed were
written by Walter, one on Sept. 5, 1862 which describes what he saw
in Loudoun County just before crossing the Potomac into Maryland,
talks about the straggling, and the weather. The other letter is
dated Sept. 29, 1862 in which Walter only briefly wrote about the
battle of Antietam itself but gave a stirring account of how he and
three other men carried Brig. Gen. Anderson to safety. The book is
only 124 pages long, contains a roster of Company F, 4th N.C.
Infantry, has an OK introduction, some pretty good footnotes but no
index. Most of the letters were written by Walter Battle as his
brother George "died of wounds in Richmond 6/6/1862."

Regards,
Teej

Tom,

About 10 years ago I was interested in the Hill's march and got a map of the
route from the Park Service.  I had my wife drop me off in Harpers Ferry and I
bicycled the route to Sharpsburg.

I can't vouch for the map's accuracy but I had a blast doing it!

David Lutton
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: RoteBaron
   To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 5:35 PM
   Subject: [TalkAntietam] AP Hill's route from HF to Antietam


   I'm looking for the best map detailing AP HIll's route of march from Harpers
Ferry to Antietam.

   The roadside marker in Beverton, WV has a decent map, but not enough detail.

   I believe the big Antietam seminar (held in 2007) offered a tour of the route,
so perhaps someone attend that tour and got a map handout? Any other sources?

   Tom Shay

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Once you cross the road, you turn right and walk north along the base
of the hill. Up a few hundred feet you will see a trail leading up the
side of the hill, still heading sort of north. After quite a way, still
walking north on the trail you will see a small wooden foot bridge. If
you cross the bridge and walk a ways you will continue on the trail. At
this point, before the bridge, I usually turn left up the hill. It is
rigged terrain, but will take you heading west toward the Sherrick farm.

Stephen Recker


On Sunday, January 27, 2008, at 08:33  PM, The Mills wrote:

> Hello All:
>
> I was wonering if anyone knows how you actually take the Sherrick
> Farmhouse
> trail? I was at Antietam this today and wanted to walk to the Sherrick
> farmhouse. I parked at the Burnside Bridge and walked along the stone
> fence. At the bottom corner, the Union Advance trail / Sherrick
> Farmhouse
> trail breaks off from each other. The Sherrick Farmhouse marker points
> up
> over the road, so I went up that way, but when I got up to the road, I
> didn't see another sign. I started to walk down the other side of the
> creek, but didn't see a trail there. Am I literally supposed to walk
> along
> the road up to the house? I really had no idea which way to go.
>
> Thanks
>
> Andy

Thanks Teej. I'll check it out then.

Stephen

On Sunday, January 27, 2008, at 09:35  PM, barringer63 wrote:

> Stephen,
>
> Col. E. A. Osborne wrote the sketch of the 4th N.C. that appears in
> Walter Clark's "Histories of the Several Regiments and Battalions
> from North Carolina in the Great War 1861-'65. As for the book you
> mentioned, the letters are great. Two letter not to be missed were
> written by Walter, one on Sept. 5, 1862 which describes what he saw
> in Loudoun County just before crossing the Potomac into Maryland,
> talks about the straggling, and the weather. The other letter is
> dated Sept. 29, 1862 in which Walter only briefly wrote about the
> battle of Antietam itself but gave a stirring account of how he and
> three other men carried Brig. Gen. Anderson to safety. The book is
> only 124 pages long, contains a roster of Company F, 4th N.C.
> Infantry, has an OK introduction, some pretty good footnotes but no
> index. Most of the letters were written by Walter Battle as his
> brother George "died of wounds in Richmond 6/6/1862."
>
> Regards,
> Teej

I have a printout from NPS that gives directions to Harpers Ferry. It also has a
map also showing Hill's route, but there is minimal detail and not worth
posting.

The roadside marker near Beverton, WV has a map of the route.
See http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=1955
Click on photo #2 for a closeup of the map.

The optimal map would show Hill's route and also the other units' route.

Tom Shay


-------------- Original message --------------
From: "david lutton" <dunkerch@...>
Tom,

About 10 years ago I was interested in the Hill's march and got a map of the
route from the Park Service. I had my wife drop me off in Harpers Ferry and I
bicycled the route to Sharpsburg.

I can't vouch for the map's accuracy but I had a blast doing it!

David Lutton
----- Original Message -----
From: RoteBaron
To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 5:35 PM
Subject: [TalkAntietam] AP Hill's route from HF to Antietam

I'm looking for the best map detailing AP HIll's route of march from Harpers
Ferry to Antietam.

The roadside marker in Beverton, WV has a decent map, but not enough detail.

I believe the big Antietam seminar (held in 2007) offered a tour of the route,
so perhaps someone attend that tour and got a map handout? Any other sources?

Tom Shay

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stephen:

Thank you for the info, but I am a little confused and hope you don't mind some
follow up questions.

Once I cross the road, you are saying I turn right.  Do I turn right while "on
the road", basically crossing it, but turning right while on the burm of the
road, or do I actually go down the opposite side, all the way down the
embankment and turn right, which would take me into what looks like a picnic
area?  I saw a lot of picnic tables if I turned right (because if I turned left,
I would have to try and cross Antietam Creek).

I am not sure if it matters at all, but I was just a little confused.

Thanks
Andy

----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Recker <recker@...>
To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:52:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Sherrick House Trail

Once you cross the road, you turn right and walk north along the base
of the hill. Up a few hundred feet you will see a trail leading up the
side of the hill, still heading sort of north. After quite a way, still
walking north on the trail you will see a small wooden foot bridge. If
you cross the bridge and walk a ways you will continue on the trail. At
this point, before the bridge, I usually turn left up the hill. It is
rigged terrain, but will take you heading west toward the Sherrick farm.

Stephen Recker


On Sunday, January 27, 2008, at 08:33  PM, The Mills wrote:

> Hello All:
>
> I was wonering if anyone knows how you actually take the Sherrick
> Farmhouse
> trail? I was at Antietam this today and wanted to walk to the Sherrick
> farmhouse. I parked at the Burnside Bridge and walked along the stone
> fence. At the bottom corner, the Union Advance trail / Sherrick
> Farmhouse
> trail breaks off from each other. The Sherrick Farmhouse marker points
> up
> over the road, so I went up that way, but when I got up to the road, I
> didn't see another sign. I started to walk down the other side of the
> creek, but didn't see a trail there. Am I literally supposed to walk
> along
> the road up to the house? I really had no idea which way to go.
>
> Thanks
>
> Andy

The Sherrick trail crosses the bridge from east to west, then turns right and
follows the western bank of the creek. It is easier if you start at the other
end by the turn off from Rt 34.


Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
Professor of History
Hagerstown Community College



>>> The Mills <kkamills@...> 1/28/2008 10:00 AM >>>
Stephen:

Thank you for the info, but I am a little confused and hope you don't mind some
follow up questions.

Once I cross the road, you are saying I turn right.  Do I turn right while "on
the road", basically crossing it, but turning right while on the burm of the
road, or do I actually go down the opposite side, all the way down the
embankment and turn right, which would take me into what looks like a picnic
area?  I saw a lot of picnic tables if I turned right (because if I turned left,
I would have to try and cross Antietam Creek).

I am not sure if it matters at all, but I was just a little confused.

Thanks
Andy

----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Recker <recker@...>
To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 21:52:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Sherrick House Trail

Once you cross the road, you turn right and walk north along the base
of the hill. Up a few hundred feet you will see a trail leading up the
side of the hill, still heading sort of north. After quite a way, still
walking north on the trail you will see a small wooden foot bridge. If
you cross the bridge and walk a ways you will continue on the trail. At
this point, before the bridge, I usually turn left up the hill. It is
rigged terrain, but will take you heading west toward the Sherrick farm.

Stephen Recker


On Sunday, January 27, 2008, at 08:33  PM, The Mills wrote:

> Hello All:
>
> I was wonering if anyone knows how you actually take the Sherrick
> Farmhouse
> trail? I was at Antietam this today and wanted to walk to the Sherrick
> farmhouse. I parked at the Burnside Bridge and walked along the stone
> fence. At the bottom corner, the Union Advance trail / Sherrick
> Farmhouse
> trail breaks off from each other. The Sherrick Farmhouse marker points
> up
> over the road, so I went up that way, but when I got up to the road, I
> didn't see another sign. I started to walk down the other side of the
> creek, but didn't see a trail there. Am I literally supposed to walk
> along
> the road up to the house? I really had no idea which way to go.
>
> Thanks
>
> Andy

Yes it does.  Hunt liked to have 100 rounds per gun in the ammo trains, but
especially with this campaign it was a goal more than a reality.


Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
Professor of History
Hagerstown Community College



>>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 1/27/2008 4:40 PM >>>
--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
>
> Dean,
> The Instructions for Field Artillery manual, updated in 1864 to include the
rifled guns,
says this about the 4 chests of ammunition accompanying 20 pdr. Parrott rifles:
>  "The 10 pdr. Parrott and 3 inch rifle each carry 50 rounds per chest.  The 20
pouinder
Parott carrys 25.  The proper assortment of ammunition and the method of packing
for
rifled guns, being still on experiment, is as yet still be determined."
> That would only allow 100 rounds per gun, not very much.   Because the boxes
were
uniform size the bigger the projectile the less rounds per box.  What  I don't
get is how
they could get 32 rounds 4.62" for a Napoleon in a box, but only 25 20 pdrs.
3.67"
Unless it was because the powder bag was detached for rifles, attached to the
sabot for
smoothbores.
>
> By the way, we talked a while ago about 20 pdr. Parrotts and mentioned
McGilvary and
Robinson's 4th & 6th ME battieries.  Johnson and Anderson in Antietam Artillery
hell
conclude that they did NOT have 20 pdr Parrotts but other eapons.  The mistake
lies with
the Hanson report in the NPS.
>

Thank you so much, Dr. Clemens!

Right now I have the following:

E, 2 US (Benjamin): 4x 20pdr Rifle
KY Lt Artillery (Simmonds): 2x 20pdr Rifle
A, 1 Bn NY Lt (Wever): 4x 20pdr Rifle
B, 1 Bn NY Lt (Kleiser): 4x 20pdr Rifle
C, 1 Bn NY Lt (Langner): 4x 20pdr Rifle
5 NY Lt (Taft): 4x 20pdr Rifle

(D, 1 NY Lt with heavy howitzers, Robinson with 6 rifles (not sure if they are
10pdr or 3
inch) and McGilvery with 4 Napoleons).

Interestingly, 25 per box, 4 per gun, gives 2,200 total rounds making the
emergency
shipment probably the standard issue of the ammunition to cover the basic load
of the
army plus a 300 round reserve. Which makes sense.

Hi Andy!

It's important to remember that 9th Corps wasn't lined up en masse and storming
this area
(even when it did, finally, carry the bridge). I don't want to dump on Burnside,
so let's just say
the corps lacked a certain amount of energy and dynamic leadership. I'm willing
to concede
that Burnside gets the rap for this, but so much of it rests in McClellan's
hands-off
leadership style (sending a note every so often telling Burnside to hurry up is
no substitute
for going there in person and seeing what the deal is).

Don't forget that Rodman is essentially doing a flank march on the bridge's
defenders.
Burnside would reasonably think that there was no need to incur the losses that
would
happen rushing the bridge as Rodman's effort would cause the defenders to simply
pull off
the bridge.

As for artillery, I'm sure there are others here far more versed than I in the
9th Corps artillery
operations, but I rather believe the gunners _did_ do all they could to blast
the defenders off
that hill, such things rarely work out as cleanly as we'd expect looking back
over 145 years.

Dear Dean,

You also left something out... Jacob D Cox was actually the IX
Corps commander...Burnside still considered himself as Wing
Commander.....

There is also some proof that Burn falsified some information in
his OR report.

Yr. Obt. Svt.
G E "Gerry" Mayers

To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
the Almighty God. --Anonymous
----- Original Message -----
From: "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...>
To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 1:43 PM
Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 9th Corps Action - Union Advance
Trail


Hi Andy!

It's important to remember that 9th Corps wasn't lined up en
masse and storming this area
(even when it did, finally, carry the bridge). I don't want to
dump on Burnside, so let's just say
the corps lacked a certain amount of energy and dynamic
leadership. I'm willing to concede
that Burnside gets the rap for this, but so much of it rests in
McClellan's hands-off
leadership style (sending a note every so often telling Burnside
to hurry up is no substitute
for going there in person and seeing what the deal is).

Don't forget that Rodman is essentially doing a flank march on
the bridge's defenders.
Burnside would reasonably think that there was no need to incur
the losses that would
happen rushing the bridge as Rodman's effort would cause the
defenders to simply pull off
the bridge.

As for artillery, I'm sure there are others here far more versed
than I in the 9th Corps artillery
operations, but I rather believe the gunners _did_ do all they
could to blast the defenders off
that hill, such things rarely work out as cleanly as we'd expect
looking back over 145 years.

Does anyone have information about pre-Centennial (1962) reenactments
of the battle of Antietam?  I'm not talking about military "exercises"
near Bloody Lane, but actual recreations of the battle.  The earlier
the better.  Thanks, Scott