Willie,

Well, if Brad Graham of Media Magic can ever finish the deal to sell his
Antietam opus, that movie will be out though I doubt it will be a mass media
like G-burg the Movie. If you have ever been to Antietam and the VC at noon
you will have been able to see some of the footage Brad carved out for the
park service. They sell the tape there too. Supposedly he has a deal with a
PBS station to carry his movie, all done without major actors and shot with
mostly appropriate body and age types for Union and Confederate soldiers.
I'll dig around to see if I can find anything new. Bill C if you are one
line, have you heard anything new about Brad's project?

Kevin Rawlings

> From: "Willie Wonka" <corsair28@...>
>
> I'm thinking a movie needs to be made about Antietam.

Have you seen _Antietam...a Documentary" (by Media Magic) that is shown at
the parks Visitor center every day at noon? There is stall hope that a
four-hour version of this film will see the light of day by the end of the
year. Even the one hour version hits on many of the topics you mentioned. It
is available at the VC book store.

Bill Christen

Hello Everybody,

and first of all sorry for cross posting this but I know that there are
people who were at West Point on these listand maybe one of them can
help me!

My wargames club wants to prepare a WW II skirmish for a convention next
year. It is meant to depict the action of the US Airbornes Easy Company
(the one from Band of Brothers) in destroying the German guns at
Brecourt Manor. I know that this is still thaught at West Point. What I
am looking for is the textbook material from West Point. If anyone of
you still has the book this is in and would be willing to send me a copy
of the relevant pages (either by eail or snail mail it would be greatly
appreciated. Please contact me off the list(s).

Again sorry for posting this OT and for crossposting this.

Thanks,

Burkhard
  www.dhc-wargames.de

--
"For one mans nightmare is another mans dream!"

Bryan Adams / heat of the night

I own a copy of the 1 hour documentary that they've shown at the
Visitor's Center and was impressed with the video for what it was (and
even used it in class a couple of times).  I did not expect Hollywood
whiz-bang stuff, but I especially enjoyed the use of re-enactors and
the computer imagery showing the movement of certain regiments.  Some
of the shots of the experts walking around the park was a bit slow,
dragging the momentum of the piece, but I thought the narration of
JEJones really topped it off.

However, that's not what I am talking about.  I am thinking along the
lines more of a Hollywood style movie, well written and directed in
the style of Saving Private Ryan or Glory, with an attention to
detail.  I don't think it can be a slave to detail like G&G though
because sometimes the langauge weighed it down.  And after reading
some of the criticism of the movie in the Civil War News (for
instance, a horticulturist had written a letter criticisizing the
improper usage of apples on the table in the Xmas scene - give me a
break!), it seems Maxwell got caught up in the spirit of accuracy and
forgot how to tell a good story - something Shaara didn't forget.

Those are my thoughts.  Sorry I hadn't expressed them more clearly.
Can you give any more info on this magnum opus that's being bounced
around???



--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Bill and Glenna Jo Christen
<gwjchris@e...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> > From: "Willie Wonka" <corsair28@y...>
> >
> > I'm thinking a movie needs to be made about Antietam.
>
> Have you seen _Antietam...a Documentary" (by Media Magic) that is
shown at
> the parks Visitor center every day at noon? There is stall hope that a
> four-hour version of this film will see the light of day by the end
of the
> year. Even the one hour version hits on many of the topics you
mentioned. It
> is available at the VC book store.
>
> Bill Christen

Willie,

There is at this time no major movie on line except Cold Mountain (due near
Christmas) that will carry a Civil War story that I know of. With the
failure of Gods & General at the box office, I seriously doubt we will see
another Civil War movie for awhile. Last Full Measure sounds dead at the
moment. Let's hope Cold Mountain is well done and does good box office.
There was another movie done by Lion's Gate called Wicked Spring. It was
directed by Kevin Hershberger but all the big plans for its release last
year came to naught. All the clips of the movie I saw were excellent but it
has disappeared out of sight.

It would be nice if someone of Speilburg's or Tom Hank's caliber of
directing and producing would do a Saving Private Ryan of Band of Brothers
type movie or series following say a cast of characters of the Stonewall
Brigade and the Iron Brigade through the war with the effects of the war on
the people as well as the regiment as a whole. By the end of the war the
Stonewall Brigade little resembled the nadir of its reputation from late
1862 to early 63. But I think there would be some emotional attraction
watching its story line as the brigade dissolved through the war from
attrition in battle and decline in leadership during the last years of the
war. Attention to the horrific and gory detail of battle(s) like it was in
Band of Brothers should be a must. Maybe a Western Theater Band of Brothers
so we are not so Easterncentric following say, Patrick Cleburne and his
brigades and Union counterpart. Last part of the series to cover their
reintroduction home and part of society again. It would have to be gritty
and unsentimental. Be nice but I don't think anything is in the cards.

Kevin

> From: "Willie Wonka" <corsair28@...>

> ...I don't think it can be a slave to detail like G&G though...

Willie,

Disregarding the apples, the fact that _Silent Night_ was not popular in America
as a "sing at home" carol, that none of the text on the building signs had "."'s
after the phrases, none of the actresses had correct hair styles or clothing, or
the room at Guinea Station was not represented correctly...Mawell claimed to be
making  "the most accurate movie." The above details would cost very little in
production time or cost. His movie was so badly told (or edited) that even the
best intentions would not save it. Despite a host of other inaccuracies, the
basic fact is that Maxwell did not present a good cinematic story. Part of the
problem was that the book was no _Killer Angels_!

I recently heard of a "formula" for a successful movie based on a study of past
movies. I do not recall the exact percentages, but it stated that there should
be
A% mystery, X % action, Y % humor, Z % romance, B % music or something to that
effect. My guess is that Maxwell missed all the required figures.

I agree with you that there is enough "true" history and emotion in the Maryland
Campaign to make several movies...just find a better storyteller.

> Can you give any more info on this magnum opus that's being bounced
> around???

The longer version of the Antietam documentary is being transferred from tape to
DVD (or some such format) and the final product has been delayed. The last I
heard was that it should be completed before the end of the year.

Bill Christen

Bill Christen wrote:

<Snip>

I agree with you that there is enough "true" history and emotion in the
Maryland
Campaign to make several movies...just find a better storyteller.

    Or even if someone wanted to do a movie just on the life of Jackson they
would be hard put to find a more interesting or dynamic subject.

    Two things Maxwell should have included in Gods and Generals were the
Angel of Marye's Heights in the Fredericksburg sequence and the animals in
the forest being driven by Jackson's men just before they hit the 11th
Corps camp at Chancellorsville. Perhaps they seemed "too Hollywood" for
him. Instead he opted for that dopey scene of the silent exchange on the
Rappahannock and Chamberlin's endless speech before the attack on
Fredericksburg.


> Can you give any more info on this magnum opus that's being bounced
> around???

The longer version of the Antietam documentary is being transferred from
tape to
DVD (or some such format) and the final product has been delayed. The last I
heard was that it should be completed before the end of the year.

    The last I heard was the DVD of the movie just as it was in the theatres
would be released in July and that there would be no long version which
would include the Antietam scenes forthcoming at all.

Regards,
Teej

Bill Christen

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .

Somewhere I had heard that someone was making a movie about the Angel
of Fredericksburg.  Did that concept get tossed in the can as well?
Is it out and I've missed it?

I know Cold Mountain is coming out, though I find it highly ironic
that in a so-called American Odyssey, two non-American actors play
the main roles (Jude Law and Nicole Kidman).  For those interested in
other older historical movies, a remake of the Alamo is supposed to
be released around the same time (Xmas, 2003) starring Dennis Quaid,
Jason Patric, and Billy Bob Thorton.  Also, some of you may have seen
that new Tom Cruise movie advertised, The Last Samurai.  He
apparently plays an alcoholic Civil War vet who goes to Japan as a
representative from Winchester gun company to train the emperor's
troops.  The movie's directed by Glory's Edward Zwick.  Check
www.upcomingmovies.com for all this and more on movies.

These are big budget, big names films, though I'm not sure that
Hollywood will balk on another Civil War movie b/c of the failure of
G&G.  If the story is good enough Hollywood will make it.



--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "teej@n..." <teej@n...> wrote:
>
> Bill Christen wrote:
>
> <Snip>
>
> I agree with you that there is enough "true" history and emotion in
the
> Maryland
> Campaign to make several movies...just find a better storyteller.
>
>    Or even if someone wanted to do a movie just on the life of
Jackson they
> would be hard put to find a more interesting or dynamic subject.
>
>    Two things Maxwell should have included in Gods and Generals
were the
> Angel of Marye's Heights in the Fredericksburg sequence and the
animals in
> the forest being driven by Jackson's men just before they hit the
11th
> Corps camp at Chancellorsville. Perhaps they seemed "too Hollywood"
for
> him. Instead he opted for that dopey scene of the silent exchange
on the
> Rappahannock and Chamberlin's endless speech before the attack on
> Fredericksburg.
>
>
> > Can you give any more info on this magnum opus that's being
bounced
> > around???
>
> The longer version of the Antietam documentary is being transferred
from
> tape to
> DVD (or some such format) and the final product has been delayed.
The last I
> heard was that it should be completed before the end of the year.
>
>    The last I heard was the DVD of the movie just as it was in the
theatres
> would be released in July and that there would be no long version
which
> would include the Antietam scenes forthcoming at all.
>
> Regards,
> Teej
>
> Bill Christen
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .

I would need someone on a Saturday next April, first weekend, for a
tour of Antietam for a small group of high school students. The last
two times that I've gone with students, I've done the tour myself,
but I wanted this time to learn some more about the battlefield from
an expert or a licensed guide.

Any local experts available?  Or does anybody know where I can look
for guides?  I would appreciate any help that you can send my way.

Thanks.

Willie Wonka

Willie,

Check with the park itself. They have local guides who are
very knowledgeable. Their website link is www.nps.gov/anti.

Hope it helps.

Very respectfully,
Your humble and obdt. servant,
Jno. Walter Fairfax,
AA & IG
First Corps,
Army of No. Va.

&

G. E. (Gerry) Mayers,
Private,
Confederate Signal Corps,
Longstreet's Corps

A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

"I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the
field on which he has nobly laid down his
."     --General Robert Edward Lee

Explore some little known facts of the War of the Rebellion!
The current feature may be found at
http://www.us-civilwar.com/picketline.html
To see earlier articles, kindly go to:
http://www.us-civilwar.com/njrebel


----- Original Message -----
From: "Willie Wonka" <corsair28@...>
To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 8:44 PM
Subject: [TalkAntietam] Does anybody know of a good guide
for hire?


> I would need someone on a Saturday next April, first
weekend, for a
> tour of Antietam for a small group of high school
students. The last
> two times that I've gone with students, I've done the tour
myself,
> but I wanted this time to learn some more about the
battlefield from
> an expert or a licensed guide.
>
> Any local experts available?  Or does anybody know where I
can look
> for guides?  I would appreciate any help that you can send
my way.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Willie Wonka
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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-----------~->
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

In a message dated 6/5/03 8:46:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
corsair28@... writes:
> Any local experts available?  Or does anybody know where I can look for
> guides?  I would appreciate any help that you can send my way.

As Gerry noted, check with the Park.

I also recommend that you check their website prior to going. They post a
schedule of their ranger-led tours, which are always excellent.

Tom Shay


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This past weekend, I was at the battlefield.  It happened to be one of the
"Artillery Weekends" which the park periodically sponsors.  Hence the following
question:

Aside from counter-battery fire (the northern army always seems to excel at
this), which army utilized its artillery in the most effective manner during the
battle?

I always assumed that Southern artillery although being inferior in calliber and
numbers was the most effective of the two at Antietam.  But I heard a myriad of
opinions contrary to this on Sunday.

Any thoughts out there?

David Lutton]
Hollidaysburg Pa
I

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello i'm new to the group and look forward to learning from
everyone . I added my group to the links section if anyone is
interested.

Hi,
Does anyone know of anywhere aside from Stottelmyre's, Bivouac of the
Dead, where I can find roster of the men buried in the nat'l
cemetery. I know the Antietam Natl Battlefield library has a
register. But is a roster published elsewhere??
Thanks

Greetings fellow listers.  It sure is quiet  :)

I have a couple of items, if you're interested. I've been in a kind of
hibernation, consumed by my day job for a couple of years, but I've
got some of my life back for the moment ... so I'll just jump on in.

First, I'd really like to read Dr Clemens' edited Carman
manuscript(s), if available.  I just don't know where to obtain it.
Is this work 'published' in the public sense?  I'd be most tickled to
buy a copy, if possible. Anybody know?  I live relatively close to
GMU, if a visit there would be effective.

On a related note, I have been delighting in the Carman-Cope maps of
the Battlefield at Antietam - the Atlas.  The Library of Congress has
put them online, along with some pretty sophisticated viewing
software.  The maps are very large (digitally speaking), but just
magnificently reproduced.  I recommend a vist, if you haven't already
seen them, to:
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/gmd:@field(NUMBER+@band(g3842am+gcw0\
247000))

Because of the large scale of the maps, and the fine-grain detail,
they're impossible to see all at once on one computer screen, at least
at a legible magnification.  So, I'm beginning work on versions of
these maps optimized for the Web using these LoC digital images with
symbols overlayed, and eventually interactively linked to more
information about units, individuals, etc.  At my present rate,
though, this might take months or even years. For other computer geeks
out there, I'm learning a bit about Flash, which looks promising for
this project.

Which brings me to some shameless promotion - I've had a website about
the battle going for some years, called Antietam on the Web (AotW),
but it's never been as complete or thorough or interesting or useful
as I'd like.  I've recently found a new home/server, and done some
database and web programming to better present information I do have
assembled. I invite you to come take a look at http://aotw.org.

And ... if anyone has the time and inclination, I'm looking for help
in continuing to build and refine the AotW website in a number of ways
- actually hoping to build a communitiy of fellow enthusiasts who have
things to say about the Battle.  I'll never be able to do it justice
alone.  I've built some simple web tools members can use to contribute
directly on the site, online.

AotW is an outlet and focus for my passion for the History, and is
strictly non-commercial.  No fees, no advertising, no marketing, no
hidden agendae. I hope this doesn't look like spam!

Anyway, it's good to be back, and I look forward to hearing from you
all.  Thanks!

Brian
bdowney@...

Dear Brian,

Welcome back!

I will try to review the Cope Carman maps from your link
sometime soon. Tom Clemens is the best person to ask about
public publication of the Carman manuscripts.... From what I
recall, it is a daunting task to annotate all the chapters
of the Carman manuscript and Dr. Clemens received his
advanced degree only on the annotation of about a third or
less of the total number of chapters Carman produced.

Again, welcome back!

Very respectfully,
Your humble and obdt. Servant,
G. E. (Gerry) Mayers,
Private,
Confederate Signal Corps,
Longstreet's Corps

A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

"I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the
field on which he has nobly laid down his
."     --General Robert Edward Lee

Explore some little known facts of the War of the Rebellion!
The current feature may be found at
http://www.us-civilwar.com/picketline.html
To see earlier articles, kindly go to:
http://www.us-civilwar.com/njrebel


----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Downey" <brdowney@...>
To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 10:33 PM
Subject: [TalkAntietam] Antietam on the Web waking up ...


> Greetings fellow listers.  It sure is quiet  :)
>
> I have a couple of items, if you're interested. I've been
in a kind of
> hibernation, consumed by my day job for a couple of years,
but I've
> got some of my life back for the moment ... so I'll just
jump on in.
>
> First, I'd really like to read Dr Clemens' edited Carman
> manuscript(s), if available.  I just don't know where to
obtain it.
> Is this work 'published' in the public sense?  I'd be most
tickled to
> buy a copy, if possible. Anybody know?  I live relatively
close to
> GMU, if a visit there would be effective.
>
> On a related note, I have been delighting in the
Carman-Cope maps of
> the Battlefield at Antietam - the Atlas.  The Library of
Congress has
> put them online, along with some pretty sophisticated
viewing
> software.  The maps are very large (digitally speaking),
but just
> magnificently reproduced.  I recommend a vist, if you
haven't already
> seen them, to:
>
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/gmd:@field(NUMBE
R+@band(g3842am+gcw0247000))
>
> Because of the large scale of the maps, and the fine-grain
detail,
> they're impossible to see all at once on one computer
screen, at least
> at a legible magnification.  So, I'm beginning work on
versions of
> these maps optimized for the Web using these LoC digital
images with
> symbols overlayed, and eventually interactively linked to
more
> information about units, individuals, etc.  At my present
rate,
> though, this might take months or even years. For other
computer geeks
> out there, I'm learning a bit about Flash, which looks
promising for
> this project.
>
> Which brings me to some shameless promotion - I've had a
website about
> the battle going for some years, called Antietam on the
Web (AotW),
> but it's never been as complete or thorough or interesting
or useful
> as I'd like.  I've recently found a new home/server, and
done some
> database and web programming to better present information
I do have
> assembled. I invite you to come take a look at
http://aotw.org.
>
> And ... if anyone has the time and inclination, I'm
looking for help
> in continuing to build and refine the AotW website in a
number of ways
> - actually hoping to build a communitiy of fellow
enthusiasts who have
> things to say about the Battle.  I'll never be able to do
it justice
> alone.  I've built some simple web tools members can use
to contribute
> directly on the site, online.
>
> AotW is an outlet and focus for my passion for the
History, and is
> strictly non-commercial.  No fees, no advertising, no
marketing, no
> hidden agendae. I hope this doesn't look like spam!
>
> Anyway, it's good to be back, and I look forward to
hearing from you
> all.  Thanks!
>
> Brian
> bdowney@...
>
>
>
>
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> ----------------------------------------------------------
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Brian,

Are you using any of the Mr.Sid accessory tools in viewing the LOC maps?
If you have photoshop, you can download (free) a MrSid plugin, which allows
you to download the whole map (all 14 of 'em), and then interactively
zoom and pan all you like off-line. Very nice set of tools.

I have had an on-again/off-again project for taking the Carman-Cope maps
and bringing up to date with some new technology. Let me know if you
want to 'talk shop'.

Regards,
	 TR Livesey
	 tlivesey@...
	 http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam

PS - nice new look on the aotw site; I don't think I've taken a look at it for
awhile.

Brian Downey wrote:
>
> On a related note, I have been delighting in the Carman-Cope maps of
> the Battlefield at Antietam - the Atlas.  The Library of Congress has
> put them online, along with some pretty sophisticated viewing
> software.  The maps are very large (digitally speaking), but just
> magnificently reproduced.  I recommend a vist, if you haven't already
> seen them, to:
>
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/gmd:@field(NUMBER+@band(g3842am+gcw0\
247000))
>
> Because of the large scale of the maps, and the fine-grain detail,
> they're impossible to see all at once on one computer screen, at least
> at a legible magnification.  So, I'm beginning work on versions of
> these maps optimized for the Web using these LoC digital images with
> symbols overlayed, and eventually interactively linked to more
> information about units, individuals, etc.  At my present rate,
> though, this might take months or even years. For other computer geeks
> out there, I'm learning a bit about Flash, which looks promising for
> this project.
>
> Which brings me to some shameless promotion - I've had a website about
> the battle going for some years, called Antietam on the Web (AotW),
> but it's never been as complete or thorough or interesting or useful
> as I'd like.  I've recently found a new home/server, and done some
> database and web programming to better present information I do have
> assembled. I invite you to come take a look at http://aotw.org.
>
> And ... if anyone has the time and inclination, I'm looking for help
> in continuing to build and refine the AotW website in a number of ways
> - actually hoping to build a communitiy of fellow enthusiasts who have
> things to say about the Battle.  I'll never be able to do it justice
> alone.  I've built some simple web tools members can use to contribute
> directly on the site, online.
>
> AotW is an outlet and focus for my passion for the History, and is
> strictly non-commercial.  No fees, no advertising, no marketing, no
> hidden agendae. I hope this doesn't look like spam!
>
> Anyway, it's good to be back, and I look forward to hearing from you
> all.  Thanks!
>
> Brian
> bdowney@...
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Todd,

Yes, I'm using the LoC provided MrSid viewer at home, but not the
photoshop plugin.  I'm a macromedia shop just now  :)

My approach to "optimizing" these for display on the Web is pretty low
tech, really.  My plan is to create a base map - a bitmap graphic - on
the order of 500px square, for each of 3 or 4 major sections of the
battlefield, and overlay vector-graphic symbols for the military units
and other items of interest. [My first attempt at such a base map, in
this case of the entire field and with text overlayed, is at
http://aotw.org/overview.php] In Flash I can use these symbols as
hyperlinks to narratives, unit and leader information, and other
data-based material.  I can also 'animate' the symbols from one time
frame to the next to better show operations over the course of the
day. Because most of the presentation uses small vector-mapped objects
or is coming from the database on-demand, I ought to be able to keep
the client-side "thin" and load times small.  That's the plan, anyway.

A couple of years ago I would not have seriously considered Flash - I
was something of an HTML purist - but it looks like most web users
have the Flash plugin now, and can readily use that kind of display.
I'm a raw amateur in Flash to this point, however, so this might take
a while!

Thanks for asking, tho the rest of the group are probably bored to
tears ... at the risk of making it worse, what's involved in your
project? [Perhaps a moderator should step in and recommend we take
this to email]

Brian
--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, TR Livesey <tlivesey@w...> wrote:
> Brian,
>
> Are you using any of the Mr.Sid accessory tools in viewing the LOC maps?
> If you have photoshop, you can download (free) a MrSid plugin, which
allows
> you to download the whole map (all 14 of 'em), and then interactively
> zoom and pan all you like off-line. Very nice set of tools.
>
> I have had an on-again/off-again project for taking the Carman-Cope maps
> and bringing up to date with some new technology. Let me know if you
> want to 'talk shop'.
>
> Regards,
>  TR Livesey
>  tlivesey@w...
>  http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam
>

Brian,

Very interesting.

I'm actually working at a level higher--ideas that could be displayable
on a web page, or could be a downloadable application, etc., but
not specifically targeted for any particular medium. I am increasingly
looking toward GPS (global positioning systems) applications. For example,
you could download a map of the battlefield (showing troop positions
at a certain time) onto your GPS unit, and then 'navigate' yourself
around points of interest that would not otherwise be visible on
the modern battlefield.

What I am doing with the Cope maps is to capture the troop positions
in terms of geographical coordinates (e.g. latitude & longitude, but
I'm actually using a different coordinate system that has much finer
resolution). Once such a database is built up, all kinds of things
are possible. As is, the Cope maps are arranged chronologically:
snapshots of troop positions taken at 14 points in time. It might
be interesting to instead generate a map that shows the various positions
of a certain unit (or set of units) across the entire day.

I don't like using the Cope maps themselves as a base map, for
a variety of reasons.  I like to work in layers. There should
be a layer that contains just the boundaries of the fields &
features; there should be a layer containing the elevation (contour
lines or whatever); there should be a layer that contains troop
positions; a layer of labels and text, etc. For a given need,
you produce the layers you are interested in. The Cope maps are
a finished map, so all the layers flattened down, and the results
can be quite cluttered; you can't get rid of the things you
don't want to see. For example, it is usually desirable to
show contour lines at an increment (e.g. every 20 feet, or every
10 feet, etc.) appropriate for the scale of the map. If the
increment is too small the lines overlap and overwhelm or obliterate
the rest of the map. Since the contour lines are actually on
the Cope map, it is not possible to substitute contours of a different
increment.

The other problem with the Cope maps is that they suffer from
horizontal distortions. If you produced a modern map to the
same scale and overlaid it and 1 of the Cope maps, you could
get features close together to line up, but not ones far
apart (you'd never be able to line up the Smoketown Road
and Miller's Sawmill road). For an illustration, see
http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam/antietam/maps/background.html.
This kind of detail may seem irrelevant for a web page. For
other applications, however, it is critical. For example, people
are increasingly starting to employ GPS
technology to their field work. It would be desirable to be able
to download these maps to a GPS unit. Because of the Cope
maps horizontal distortions, it would not be suitable to download
them to a GPS unit.

This is not to say I don't like the Cope maps. Actually,
I have a real set of my own. Not a repro, but an actual
1904 volume. The thing is huge! You have not experienced
these beautiful maps until you have browsed through a full
sized copy.

I have had for several years a nice, horizontally accurate
database containing the base Antietam map (field boundaries
and features as per 1862) and a nice digital 5 foot increment
contour map. Once I have info on the troop positions, I'll
be 1 step closer to something interesting.

I have no experience with Flash. I am leaning more toward Java.
If you are going to assume that people have the Flash plugin,
I'd just as well assume they have the Java plugin, which
is much more useful. If the browser was too confining, I'd
just move to a download able Java application.

At first glance, it does seem like we have wildly different
approaches. Nonetheless, there ought to be a way to find some
synergy.

Regards,
	 TR Livesey
	 tlivesey@...

Brian Downey wrote:
>
> Hi Todd,
>
> Yes, I'm using the LoC provided MrSid viewer at home, but not the
> photoshop plugin.  I'm a macromedia shop just now  :)
>
> My approach to "optimizing" these for display on the Web is pretty low
> tech, really.  My plan is to create a base map - a bitmap graphic - on
> the order of 500px square, for each of 3 or 4 major sections of the
> battlefield, and overlay vector-graphic symbols for the military units
> and other items of interest. [My first attempt at such a base map, in
> this case of the entire field and with text overlayed, is at
> http://aotw.org/overview.php] In Flash I can use these symbols as
> hyperlinks to narratives, unit and leader information, and other
> data-based material.  I can also 'animate' the symbols from one time
> frame to the next to better show operations over the course of the
> day. Because most of the presentation uses small vector-mapped objects
> or is coming from the database on-demand, I ought to be able to keep
> the client-side "thin" and load times small.  That's the plan, anyway.
>
> A couple of years ago I would not have seriously considered Flash - I
> was something of an HTML purist - but it looks like most web users
> have the Flash plugin now, and can readily use that kind of display.
> I'm a raw amateur in Flash to this point, however, so this might take
> a while!
>
> Thanks for asking, tho the rest of the group are probably bored to
> tears ... at the risk of making it worse, what's involved in your
> project? [Perhaps a moderator should step in and recommend we take
> this to email]
>
> Brian
> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, TR Livesey <tlivesey@w...> wrote:
> > Brian,
> >
> > Are you using any of the Mr.Sid accessory tools in viewing the LOC maps?
> > If you have photoshop, you can download (free) a MrSid plugin, which
> allows
> > you to download the whole map (all 14 of 'em), and then interactively
> > zoom and pan all you like off-line. Very nice set of tools.
> >
> > I have had an on-again/off-again project for taking the Carman-Cope maps
> > and bringing up to date with some new technology. Let me know if you
> > want to 'talk shop'.
> >
> > Regards,
> >       TR Livesey
> >       tlivesey@w...
> >       http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Dang, Todd -

Your project indeed sounds like it has excellent potential for use on
the ground.

--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, TR Livesey <tlivesey@w...> wrote:
> Brian,
>
> Very interesting.
>
> I'm actually working at a level higher--ideas that could be
displayable ... <snip>

And yes, I think there might be some common threads between our
approaches.  I'd say our fundamental differences in approach are the
result of our end-goals, but the two techniques might have some
shareable elements.

I'll get back to you by email, if that's ok, rather than bore the rest
of the group with this topic.

> This is not to say I don't like the Cope maps. Actually,
> I have a real set of my own. Not a repro, but an actual
> 1904 volume. The thing is huge! You have not experienced
> these beautiful maps until you have browsed through a full
> sized copy.
>

This is fantastic!  I'd love to have a copy, but haven't seen one for
sale yet.  How did you come upon yours, if I may ask?

<more stuff snipped>
>
> Regards,
>  TR Livesey
>  tlivesey@w...

Brian
email name:  bdowney
at
domain: aotw.org

Hi Group,

I know there's some expertise on this subject out there.  My question
ought to be easy  :) - does anybody have any reliable biographic data
or Antietam combat information about Colonel Henry Post of the 2nd USSS?

Of course, Berdan is the name everyone thinks of first with
Sharpsooters, and this is probably justified, so there's a fair amount
of material available about him and ACW sharpshooting in general.
More obscure, apparently, is Colonel Post, listed in the Order of
Battle as the CO of the 2nd USSS at Antietam, but I know nothing about
him and what his role might have been in the battle.

He's not listed in Heitman's or Appletons's - two sources I can
usually count on for a starting point, at least.  Any info or leads
appreciated.

Brian

Brian Downey wrote:

> > This is not to say I don't like the Cope maps. Actually,
> > I have a real set of my own. Not a repro, but an actual
> > 1904 volume. The thing is huge! You have not experienced
> > these beautiful maps until you have browsed through a full
> > sized copy.
> >
>
> This is fantastic!  I'd love to have a copy, but haven't seen one for
> sale yet.  How did you come upon yours, if I may ask?
>

Where else? All together class...EBAY!

Taken from The Life and Times of J.E.B. Stuart...

"General Munford relates an incident which occurred at the ford, and
which is worth preservation. As he reached the river bank he found
there General Maxey Gregg with about one hundred men, the rear of the
infantry. At the edge of the river, and in the water, stood an
ambulance filled with wounded men. The cowardly driver had unhitched
his horses, crossed the river, and had left his suffering comrades to
the mercy of the foe. The poor fellows begged piteously to be carried
to the other side. General Gregg lifted his hat, and said to his
soldiers, --
         "My men, it is a shame to leave these poor fellows here in
the water! Can't you take them over the river ?"
         In an instant a dozen or more strong men laid hold on the
ambulance and pulled it through the water, in most places waist deep,
amid the shouts of the rest, who sang, --
         "Carry me back to Old Virginia."

I am trying to pull together some information on the 15th Pa Cavalry and
would much appreciate any assistance/ direction that anyone might offer.
Don't have much so far and since CavOps at Antietam were not heavily
depended upon, there might not be a whole lot.  It's listed in the Order of
Battle as being unattached and commanded by Col. Wm Palmer.

I'm heading for the OR's, but if anyone has anything on it, or can point me
toward something I'd appreciate it.

Ron Church
Manchester MD

Hi Ron,

Coincidentally, I've done a little reading recently on both the Regt
and its commander.  There must be quite a story in there somewhere,
really - I think it'd make a good movie!

"The Anderson Cavalry", as they were also known, were organized by Col
Palmer in July and August 1862, its officer corps largely from an
independent cavalry Company headed by then-Capt Palmer - the Anderson
Troop. That company had been/was still in service at HQ with Gen Buell
in the West.

Palmer was raising and training the new regiment in Pennsylvania when
Gen Lee began his Maryland Campaign of 1862; but he was not completely
manned, and training had only just begun.

"The alarm raised by the invasion extended well into Pennsylvania, and
Governor Andrew Curtain fired off feverish telegrams to War Department
suggesting that the Anderson Cavalry be employed along the
Pennsylvania/Maryland border. As a result of this request 250 picked
men were sent to Greencastle with orders to gather horses in the area
and resist incursions into the state".

"Several skirmishes took place, and the detachment moved forward into
Hagerstown when the Confederates moved out toward South Mountain and
Antietam".

"During the Battle of Antietam the detachment did service as scouts
and returned stragglers to their units. During this period Captain
Palmer was captured while within Confederate lines in civilian clothes
while gathering information for General McClellan".

[The Colonel, captured in civilian clothes -  a spy?  Fertile ground
for investigation.]

(quoted text used on aotw.org, and found on
http://www.swcivilwar.com/15PA.html)

There's a lot more to the Regiment than that, of course.  You can see
the basics about the Regiment and its Colonel, with links to more
sources and detail at:

http://aotw.org/officers.php?unit_id=29 (the 17th PA Cav page; follow
the link from there to Col Palmer or up to Brigade, Div, etc).

Regards,

Brian

--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Church" <rchurch@q...> wrote:
> I am trying to pull together some information on the 15th Pa Cavalry and
> would much appreciate any assistance/ direction that anyone might offer.
> Don't have much so far and since CavOps at Antietam were not heavily
> depended upon, there might not be a whole lot.  It's listed in the
Order of
> Battle as being unattached and commanded by Col. Wm Palmer.
>
> I'm heading for the OR's, but if anyone has anything on it, or can
point me
> toward something I'd appreciate it.
>
> Ron Church
> Manchester MD

Brian,

Can't thank you enough.  That's exactly what I'm after.  This machine and
the world of information it opens up never cease to amaze me.

The spy story certainly is fascinating, I think that anywhere spies are
involved there's a movie in it somewhere.  I did notice that when the unit
moved west Col. Palmer is not listed as being with it.  Looks like it has
all the ingredients for a drum head court, pity poor Palmer if such was the
case.

Sincerest thanks
Ron Church
Manchester MD

Hi Scott,

Fine story.  Do you know the context?  Was this at a ford on the
Potomac? What day did this happen?  The text ("the rear or the
infantry") suggests the tail end of the ANV departure from Sharpsburg
on Sept 18 or 19 ...

Also, this story illustrates humane behavior on Gen Gregg's part -
would that have been unusual for him?  I don't know a lot about him,
but I'd not heard that he was noted for coldness or brutality
particularly.

Thanks,
Brian

In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Mingus" <scottmingus@y...> wrote:
> Taken from The Life and Times of J.E.B. Stuart...
>
> "General Munford relates an incident which occurred at the ford, and
> which is worth preservation. As he reached the river bank he found
> there General Maxey Gregg with about one hundred men, the rear of the
> infantry.

<snip>

This incident allegedly occurred at Boteler's Ford on the 18th or so
(prior to the Shepherdstown fight of course). Henry McClellan relayed
this story in his book about JEB Stuart, and he was not always the
most reliable reporter. Still, there seems to be a ring of truth
about this particular story.

Maxcy Gregg was much beloved by his men according to what I have
read. He was considered an above average field commander and good
tactician. As with many of his officers who fell in 1862, Lee would
miss Gregg's talents at Gettysburg the following year, where the
losses in senior commanders at times proved to be a problem as newly
promoted junior officers failed to live up to their predecessors'
abilities.

Scott

--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Downey" <bdowney@a...>
wrote:
> Hi Scott,
>
> Fine story.  Do you know the context?  Was this at a ford on the
> Potomac? What day did this happen?  The text ("the rear or the
> infantry") suggests the tail end of the ANV departure from
Sharpsburg
> on Sept 18 or 19 ...
>
> Also, this story illustrates humane behavior on Gen Gregg's part -
> would that have been unusual for him?  I don't know a lot about him,
> but I'd not heard that he was noted for coldness or brutality
> particularly.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
>
> In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Mingus" <scottmingus@y...>
wrote:
> > Taken from The Life and Times of J.E.B. Stuart...
> >
> > "General Munford relates an incident which occurred at the ford,
and
> > which is worth preservation. As he reached the river bank he
found
> > there General Maxey Gregg with about one hundred men, the rear of
the
> > infantry.
>
> <snip>

Antietam anniversary hikes have been announced.

Visit  <A HREF="www.nps.gov/anti/Hikes03.htm">www.nps.gov/anti/Hikes03.htm</A>
for full details.

Tours for Saturday, Sept 13 and Sunday, Sept 14th are:

7- 8 a.m. "A Great Tumbling Together of All Heaven and Earth"- The Opening
Guns of Battle - This 1-mile hike follows the route of Hooker's attack from the
North Woods, through the Cornfield, toward the Dunker Church. Tour stop #2
-the North Woods.

8:15 - 9:30 a.m.    "The Dogs of War are Loose"- Hood's Counterattack and the
arrival of the 12th Corps - 1-mile hike following the charge of the Texas
Brigade and their terrible struggle in the "Cornfield" only to be turned back by
Union General Joseph Mansfield 12th Corps. Dunker Church

10-11:15 a.m. "What In Gods Name are you Fighting For?"- Massacre in the West
Woods - The fighting in the West Woods was desperate and destructive. This
¾-mile hike follows the fateful attack of Sedgwick's Division that advanced into
the West Woods and lost over half its men killed and wounded.       New York
Monument just north of the Visitor Center.

12:15 -2 p.m. "...The Adjacent Planes were Covered with a Carpet of Red, Blue
and Gray"- Attack and Defense of the Sunken Road - Two simultaneous 1-mile
hikes, one hike follows the Union advance on, the other the Confederate defense
of, the Sunken Road. Both hikes conclude at "Bloody Lane." Visitors must
choose one hike. Visitor Center

2:30 - 3:15 p.m. "...We Showered the Lead Across that Creek..."- The Fight
for Burnside Bridge - This ¼-mile walk focuses on the series of Union attacks
against the Battlefield's best known landmark. Tour stop #9 - At the Burnside
Bridge

3:30 - 4:45 p.m. "...The Regiment Prepared for the Final Struggle"- Beyond
Burnside Bridge - 1½-mile hike following the route of the Union advance on
Sharpsburg, only to be turned back by A.P. Hill's Confederate counterattack.

Tom Shay


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Is it true that Weber's brigade assaulted the Sunken Road with unloaded weapons?

Thank you
Ron Church
Manchester MD


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]